NationStates Jolt Archive

You know I really hate to start a thred and leave it, but I have been meaning to start this one for a few days, and as luck would have it I won't be around much for a few days, so.....anyway

what is the purpose of prison?

Is it for punishment? rehabilitation? or to protect the rights of the citizens?

I can argue all three, but I have a way of being able to argue all sides of the issue, I haven't quite figured out which one I actually believe or if it's a combo of it all.

I do want to point out that I am asking what the purpose should be, or what the focus should be, not what it is now or what you see happening, I know for a fact the prison system isn't really accomplishing any of this now.

makes people unable to repeat their crimes.

Punishment and consquent rehabilitation. In cases where rehabilitation is not possible, they also function to protect the rest of society.

It's a good retirement plan for the impoverished.

The purpose of prison is to serve society in whichever way is most beneficial. Usually that means rehabilitation. Most calls for punishment are based on petty emotions and desires for vengeance.

Ideally prison would be different for different types of criminals. For murderers and rapists and such it should be punishment combined with isolation from society to protect the citizens. For thieves and drug dealers and drug addicts it might be used to give them drug treatment and different skills to make them employable in decent paying, legal jobs.

I'd say that the purpose of a prison depends largely on who you ask. For areas with depressed economies, it's new jobs. For politicians, it's a way to show they're tough on crime. For contractors who build and private companies who run prisons, it's a windfall. For the criminal class, it's one more place to avoid. For the middle class, it's one more reminder to maintain the clean legal standing that nobody below them seems to care about and that those above them seem to have loopholes to escape.

In the US, they've found that the best "rehabilitation" for violent offenders is to hold them until they're in their late 40's or early 50s.

Then they tend to chill out and stop being violent.

Has nothing to do with rehabilitation therapy, classes, etc. Just getting older.

Incapacitation and punishment.. that about covers it.

Prison is nothing more than incarceration. That's it. I personally do not believe in prisons.

Those who can be rehabilitated, should be rehabilitated. Those who can't should be dead; or at least put in labor camps. We could use the cheap labor to build buildings, walls along the Mexican border, digging, mining, and whatnot.

Prison is nothing more than incarceration. That's it. I personally do not believe in prisons.

Those who can be rehabilitated, should be rehabilitated. Those who can't should be dead; or at least put in labor camps. We could use the cheap labor to build buildings, walls along the Mexican border, digging, mining, and whatnot.

How can you tell who can be rehabilitated? And how long would you give them? Studies show that nearly everyone is "rehabilitated" once they are too old to do crime.

Because the legal system is too corrupt and flawed for executions to take place.

How can you tell who can be rehabilitated? And how long would you give them? Studies show that nearly everyone is "rehabilitated" once they are too old to do crime.

Fine, I'll tell you who should have rehab, who should be dead, and who should be in labor camps

Rehab- Drug consumers, Mentally disabled criminals

Dead- Murderous leeches, rapists and child molesters.

Labor Camps- theives, drug dealers, gangters (granted they haven't raped or murdered yet)

Fine, I'll tell you who should have rehab, who should be dead, and who should be in labor camps

Rehab- Drug consumers, Mentally disabled criminals

Dead- Murderous leeches, rapists and child molesters.

Labor Camps- theives, drug dealers, gangters (granted they haven't raped or murdered yet)
what would you do with a mentally disabled drug dealer?

what would you do with a mentally disabled drug dealer?

Cheat him out of some crack.

what would you do with a mentally disabled drug dealer?

Put him in a giant pit with cats, then let a crab loose in the pit, then play ring-a-round-the-rosie, and then....

Put him in a giant pit with cats, then let a crab loose in the pit, then play ring-a-round-the-rosie, and then....
yeah, what country are you from.......so I don't move there?

and if you are from the USA how could I best ensure you don't get elected?

The purpose of prison is to keep those who disobey laws in line and protect them from the rest of society (and vice versa).

It'd be much more efficient just to use criminals as slave labourers, but for some reason people don't like slavery. As though the below-minimum-wage rates they employ illegal immigrants at are little better. :rolleyes:

The purpose of prison is to keep those who disobey laws in line and protect them from the rest of society (and vice versa).

It'd be much more efficient just to use criminals as slave labourers, but for some reason people don't like slavery. As though the below-minimum-wage rates they employ illegal immigrants at are little better. :rolleyes:

I don't believe that slavery is cost efficient. You have to clothe, feed, house, and guard the slaves, who have little motivation to be productive.

I think prisons are useless unless the prisoners do some sort of community service and give back to society as opposed to just sitting in a box all day, watching tv and getting food which is essentially funded by taxpayers' money.

The purpose of a prison is to protect the citizens.

Of course, that protection can come in various forms. The citizens aren't really protected by simply getting a criminal off the street for a few years and then throwing them back - not to mention that the criminal himself is a citizen also in need of protection. Rehabilitation of most prisoners - especially those who commit petty crimes or even nonviolent felonies (stealing cars, etc.) - makes sense no matter how you look at it. It helps the criminal to get out of a life of crime by giving them another way to make money. It protects the society from being harmed by that person. It keeps the taxpayers from having to pay to try and incarcerate the same person again and again....

In the case of those who are murderers/rapists/child molesters/etc., the main point is simply protection of everyone else. Some may be rehabilitated, and an attempt at this should be made - but, from what I've read, rehabilitation of violent criminals has been overall less successful.

Even with the issue of the death penalty, the only good argument I've heard in favor of it is that the offender must be removed entirely from society in order to protect others.

yeah, what country are you from.......so I don't move there?

and if you are from the USA how could I best ensure you don't get elected?

Make sure I don't make ANY money.

I don't believe that slavery is cost efficient. You have to clothe, feed, house, and guard the slaves, who have little motivation to be productive.

Like I said, we can always take them out and shoot them. :sniper:

I will sleep better knowing they won't be a problem anymore. :p

Like I said, we can always take them out and shoot them. :sniper:

I will sleep better knowing they won't be a problem anymore. :p

Most people in the US prison system are in for drug possession.

Shoot someone for drug possession?

Make sure I don't make ANY money.
or meet anyone with likeminded principles that has money:p

Most people in the US prison system are in for drug possession.

Shoot someone for drug possession?

I already said rehab THEM. The rest you can take out and shoot.

or meet anyone with likeminded principles that has money:p

You catch on very fast. :p I like you.

Sounds good to me. Cmon all you pro choice people.. these criminals have a choice, break the law, or dont break the law.. they chose to break the law.. Screw the criminals rights, what of the victim's rights? When you violate someone else's rights, you lose ALL yours.. and I quote Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. you lose all of them. no ifs ands or buts.

Criminally insane? They're still criminals.. All criminals have mental problems or they wouldn't have committed the crime.

I don't believe that slavery is cost efficient. You have to clothe, feed, house, and guard the slaves, who have little motivation to be productive.
If they aren't productive you can always halve their rations until they start working again.

Of course, plenty of them would die, but isn't that kind of the point?

Or we could just use some kind of hallucinatory drug that will drive them berserk and drop them on enemy cities we want razed. I remember some guy on II doing that a while back.

Criminally insane? They're still criminals.. All criminals have mental problems or they wouldn't have committed the crime.
Got any evidence to back that up? I mean, bank robbers don't seem crazy. They need money in a hurry, they decide stealing it and taking a risk is preferable to taking out a loan (probably has bad credit anyway) or working for months or years to save up the cash. Drug dealers find that they can make more money with less effort selling cocaine rather than working for $7/hour in the hot sun as a landscaper. It's perfectly reasonable to take the risk.

I already said rehab THEM. The rest you can take out and shoot.

Take yer rehab and cram it, ugly. *takes another hit off the bong and another belt of whiskey*

You want some o' dis?

If they aren't productive you can always halve their rations until they start working again.

Of course, plenty of them would die, but isn't that kind of the point?

Or we could just use some kind of hallucinatory drug that will drive them berserk and drop them on enemy cities we want razed. I remember some guy on II doing that a while back.

Well, the Chinese warlords did stuff like that. They gave the criminals an oppertunity to die honourably in battle or slowly and painfully in the execution chambers.

And I recall a story of a Chinese king making the prisoners march to the front lines and all thousand or so slit their throats. Talk about psychological warfare.

Take yer rehab and cram it, ugly. *takes another hit off the bong and another belt of whiskey*

You want some o' dis?

Not yet... I will in about three minutes, so save me some.

Got any evidence to back that up? I mean, bank robbers don't seem crazy. They need money in a hurry, they decide stealing it and taking a risk is preferable to taking out a loan (probably has bad credit anyway) or working for months or years to save up the cash. Drug dealers find that they can make more money with less effort selling cocaine rather than working for $7/hour in the hot sun as a landscaper. It's perfectly reasonable to take the risk.

Most people I've met who were felons weren't crazy. Stupid in some cases, but not all. The ones who get caught seem to be far more stupid than the ones who do not (and I include drug dealers and violent felons in this).

Rehabilitation doesn't really work. Aging out the more violent felons seems to work, but not much else.

I think it's silly to jail people for drug possession. Especially for drugs like marijuana. I don't believe that most drug rehabilitation works for opiates and cocaine, either.

Most people I've met who were felons weren't crazy. Stupid in some cases, but not all. The ones who get caught seem to be far more stupid than the ones who do not (and I include drug dealers and violent felons in this).

Rehabilitation doesn't really work. Aging out the more violent felons seems to work, but not much else.

I think it's silly to jail people for drug possession. Especially for drugs like marijuana. I don't believe that most drug rehabilitation works for opiates and cocaine, either.

Fine. We eliminate rehab, go straight to death or labor.

Fine. We eliminate rehab, go straight to death or labor.

Well, I propose that we legalize drugs. And, with the tax money the government makes from the sale of these drugs (much in the same was they regulate alcohol) we pay for rehab for those who ask for it, and pay for the drugs for those who feel like checking out early (I propose putting skips full of crack and heroin in certain places so that addicts no longer have to rob anyone to get high).

That's about 80 percent of the US prison population, and I bet I would lower crime and lower government expenditures and increase revenue.

For violent felons (other than the most heinous crimes) I would incarcerate the violent ones until they were age 55.

The real middle ground left (a minor percentage) would be non-violent felons who were not drug users (burglary, embezzlement, etc). These I would give 10 years.

The truly violent I would have put in a Supermax until Hell freezes over, just so I don't have to deal with 10 years of court wrangling over a death sentence (or the political brouhaha of making a mistake). I could afford this, because I have 80 percent of the prison budget to play with, and money coming in from the sale of drugs.

Oh, and that 40 billion used to militarize the DEA and police forces across America? I get that money back.

Why don't we legalize rape and theft while we're at it? That takes care of some more of the prison population.. Here's a thought.. why don't we PUNISH the criminals, make examples out of them.. and work harder to catch the ones who get away..

Well, I propose that we legalize drugs.

100% abso-fuckin-lutely in agreement.

Why don't we legalize rape and theft while we're at it?

So me sitting in my living room and smoking a joint is the same as rape?

What's it like in your world?

So me sitting in my living room and smoking a joint is the same as rape?

What's it like in your world?

I have the feeling he's never had a joint, Keru.

I'm all for killing people who make a habit of killing for fun, but the world could really use Prozac in the water supply and free buds for everyone.

Yes, it is. a crime is a crime is a crime. don't want to go to jail? dont commit a crime.

And while we're at it, lets legalize my right to blow away a thief in my house.. and wound him to stop him from running away.

Remember back when it was OK for the cops to shoot if ya ran from em? Not many people ran from the cops.

Yes, it is. a crime is a crime is a crime. don't want to go to jail? dont commit a crime.

No ... a crime is not a crime is not a crime or we'd punish all crime the same way. Rape destroys someone, a private joint doesn't hurt anyone.

If you can't see the difference ... well ... then we have nothing to talk about because in your mind, I am no better than a rapist and I don't have dealings with people who look down their nose at me.

You know I really hate to start a thred and leave it, but I have been meaning to start this one for a few days, and as luck would have it I won't be around much for a few days, so.....anyway

what is the purpose of prison?

Is it for punishment? rehabilitation? or to protect the rights of the citizens?

I can argue all three, but I have a way of being able to argue all sides of the issue, I haven't quite figured out which one I actually believe or if it's a combo of it all.

I do want to point out that I am asking what the purpose should be, or what the focus should be, not what it is now or what you see happening, I know for a fact the prison system isn't really accomplishing any of this now.

One thing's for sure: the situation in America is not what it was designed to be. When you have people in poverty committing crimes and they get so much more in prison, you wonder if it really serves its purpose as a criminal deterrent (which is what it should be, in my opinion; so, I'd have to go with the punishment argument)

Yes, it is. a crime is a crime is a crime. don't want to go to jail? dont commit a crime.

And while we're at it, lets legalize my right to blow away a thief in my house.. and wound him to stop him from running away.

Remember back when it was OK for the cops to shoot if ya ran from em? Not many people ran from the cops.

In Virginia, it is legal for the Virginia State Police to shoot fleeing felons. Interestingly, the mere act of fleeing the police is a felony, so...

In the same state, in order to shoot someone in your house, they have to constitute an immediate threat to life and limb (which means that either you have a protective order out against that person, or you see they have the means and intent to do bodily harm).

In the words of Dirty Harry, if a naked stranger with a hardon and a knife is in your house at 2 AM, he's not out collecting for the Red Cross.

Make a mistake though, and you're committing murder. It's not a simple matter of shooting people in your house.

Most people I've met who were felons weren't crazy. Stupid in some cases, but not all. The ones who get caught seem to be far more stupid than the ones who do not (and I include drug dealers and violent felons in this).

Rehabilitation doesn't really work.

Actually, if you read the studies, it does. Recidivism rates for non-violent criminals given job training (ie. rehabilitation) or other education drop to almost nothing. A lot of it has to do with the fact that, without something else to fall back on, all these people have is crime when they get thrust back onto the streets. But when we help them to obtain a better job - an "honest" job - most often, they stick with that.

One thing's for sure: the situation in America is not what it was designed to be. When you have people in poverty committing crimes and they get so much more in prison, you wonder if it really serves its purpose as a criminal deterrent (which is what it should be, in my opinion; so, I'd have to go with the punishment argument)

And if rehabilitation has been shown to deter further crimes?

Actually, if you read the studies, it does. Recivitism rates for non-violent criminals given job training (ie. rehabilitation) or other education drop to almost nothing. A lot of it has to do with the fact that, without something else to fall back on, all these people have is crime when they get thrust back onto the streets. But when we help them to obtain a better job - an "honest" job - most often, they stick with that.

Not the ones by Samenow. He's the Fed's primary expert on the subject, and he derides both the insanity defense and rehabilitation.

In Virginia, it is legal for the Virginia State Police to shoot fleeing felons. Interestingly, the mere act of fleeing the police is a felony, so...


Heh ... self-fulfilling laws are neat.

Not the ones by Samenow. He's the Fed's primary expert on the subject, and he derides both the insanity defense and rehabilitation.

Has he done any actual studies, or does he just talk a lot about it? The statistics are pretty clear that prison systems with rehabilitation programs for non-violent offenders end up with recidivism rates damn near zero.

Edit: Meanwhile, being the "fed's top expert" on something means nothing to me - not in Bush's government.

Has he done any actual studies, or does he just talk a lot about it? The statistics are pretty clear that prison systems with rehabilitation programs for non-violent offenders end up with recidivism rates damn near zero.
He's been doing studies since the mid-1970s, and he is also a reviewer of other studies.

He is the protege of Jochelson. You can be sure that if you are a defendant trying to use the insanity defense, and Samenow is called as the prosecution's evaluator, you won't be allowed to claim insanity.

He is also a proponent of very long sentences for violent felons, in order to age them out of the population. He's noticed that recidivism for violent crimes is lowest in those cases.

Your studies may be more applicable to non-violent crime such as burglary or larceny.

Your studies may be more applicable to non-violent crime such as burglary or larceny.

Indeed. In fact, I made a point of restricting my comments to non-violent offenders. We aren't talking about rapists and murderers here. We're talking about a kid from a bad neighboorhood who ended up boosting cars because it's what everyone else did for money. Most times, if you give that same kid some job skills and maybe help him find a job when he gets out, he isn't going back to that same life.

Indeed. In fact, I made a point of restricting my comments to non-violent offenders. We aren't talking about rapists and murderers here. We're talking about a kid from a bad neighboorhood who ended up boosting cars because it's what everyone else did for money. Most times, if you give that same kid some job skills and maybe help him find a job when he gets out, he isn't going back to that same life.
I am convinced that the majority of non-violent offenders are drug users. I would rather decriminalize drugs and offer free drugs or free rehab (your choice) so you don't have to rob people for the money to get high.

This would also reduce "crimes" like prostitution. With the money I save from not having a War on Drugs, I could spend money on helping out people who needed job training.

And if rehabilitation has been shown to deter further crimes?

Ideally, we put them in a 4x4 underground cube, surrounded by rock, and leave them there--for life, if capital offenders, no food, whatever fluids you can get from your piss, and, in that case, with a small caliber handgun with a single bullet...

But, we have to be humane. If rehabilitation works, fine. But really, prison should not be an escape--it should not be cruel and unusual, but seriously, cable TV and weight rooms are just too much. Might help with conserving taxpayer funds which could go toward, say improving public education to keep them out of prison in the first place.

prison is a place were u can keep the scum of the earth away from the people who obey the law

plus the criminals are kept in a tiny cell with one other man
and gets raped by the gay prison bully

my drama teacher used to be a warden in a liverpool prison and he says that if an inmate complains and tells a warden he's being abused the wardens are prone to getting the bigger inmates to beat him up so that he wont cause a problem

now after 5 years of that fo lets say car theft i know i wouldnt commit again

but because the british government (the blair witch) is becoming a namby pamby sissyfest people are gettin off with 6 months for rape etc

i think it is time to bring back our good old capital punishment like the americans but better

floggings, hangings , beheadings and what we call making an exsample MOHA

that way people wont dare commit under pain of death and torture

however we would have to keep these punishments under STRICT controle lest some poor soul got accused for nothing

MANY PEOPLE DONT REALISE THAT BRITAIN IS HAVING GANG WARS AND GANG WARS BRING DRUG BUISINESS .ETC ETC

im afraid this is the only way

To keep bad people off the streets, and to rehibilitate.

Why don't we legalize rape and theft while we're at it? That takes care of some more of the prison population.. Here's a thought.. why don't we PUNISH the criminals, make examples out of them.. and work harder to catch the ones who get away..
Punishment should never be used to "set an example" mostly because it doesn't work.

Cain killed Abel and was punished by God himself, and yet, how many more murders have taken place?

People, the real solution is similar to what the Romans did. We take our criminals and we have them fight to the death for our amusement on national television. IT IS BRILLIANT!!!!:D

People, the real solution is similar to what the Romans did. We take our criminals and we have them fight to the death for our amusement on national television. IT IS BRILLIANT!!!!:D

Hear Hear! :D

It's different for different crimes, and they are usually distinguishable by the sentence length. When someone gets a 30-day sentence for cannabis possession, it's really just to punish them. When someone gets a 5-year sentence for dealing heroin, rehabilitation will be one of the aims.When someone gets a life sentence for aggravated murder, it is to keep them out of society where they are dangerous.

I'd say that the purpose of prison is

1) to punish the criminals
2) some rehabilitation
3) but mostly, to remove them from society for a while so they can't do it again