NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't mention the war, World Cup fans told
By Richard Alleyne and Kate Connolly in Berlin
(Filed: 10/03/2006)

Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, gave England fans a stern warning yesterday that they would be arrested and jailed if they performed a Nazi salute, chanted Sieg Heil or goose stepped during the World Cup in Germany.

Mr Clarke, speaking during a briefing on the tournament, said there were very strict laws in Germany against glorifying the Third Reich and that neither he nor the authorities would see the funny side of such behaviour.

He said even the chanting of war-time songs and carrying paraphernalia such as inflatable Spitfires and German helmets could fall foul of strict codes of conduct.

Mr Clarke said: "British fans should respect the law of Germany. The reason why the German Parliament passed these laws was because the era that we are talking about was one of total horror and destruction in Germany.

"It's not a joke, it is not a comic thing to do. It is totally insulting and wrong. The German authorities will have my full support in enforcing this law.

"Anyone who thinks it's entertaining to get involved in this sort of thing, I absolutely urge them not to do so."

The Home Secretary gave the warning as he outlined measures to stamp out any hooliganism during the competition this summer including issuing travel banning orders on 3,200 troublemakers and the deployment of 79 English police officers in Germany.

The host nation is taking the opportunity to launch a £2 million "friendliness campaign" to build bridges with the visiting fans and throw off the country's dour image.

Mr Clarke said he hoped fans would take to heart the tournament slogan "Time to Make Friends" and continue the rehabilitation of the image of England supporters that has taken place in the last decade.

But the friendliness of the Germans will to some extent depend on the behaviour of the visiting fans. Police have wide ranging powers under two laws - the Spreading Propaganda and the Inciting Hatred and Glorifying Extremism acts - which deal with behaviour associated with the Second World War.

A toughening of the law for the tournament means police can jail on the spot anyone who imitates Nazi conduct or incites violence and hold them for two weeks without charge.

The Germans are so sensitive to this kind of behaviour that perpetrators can be jailed for up to three years for performing the Nazi salute or imitating Hitler.

The authorities, who still view England fans as potential troublemakers, are particularly worried about how they will behave in Nuremberg, where they play Trinidad and Tobago on June 15, because of its associations with the Third Reich and the fact that the original Nazi parade ground is next to the stadium.

At yesterday's briefing, held at the Home Office in central London, Assistant Chief Constable Stephen Thomas, who is in charge of the British policing of the World Cup, said the German authorities had yet to make a decision on whether singing the Dambusters theme, or other football chants with war-time links, would also lead to an arrest.

Mr Thomas said there was unprecedented co-operation between German and English police and he hoped to allay fears that England fans would be unfairly targeted.

"Our supporters are going out quite fearful that they will be the victims of other countries' fans causing problems," he said. "We have no intelligence that is going to happen, but that is an issue we have talked to our German counterparts about."

Mr Thomas said 44 of the British officers going to Germany would operate on trains, in stations and in airports and would have the power of arrest. The rest would be "spotters", intelligence gatherers and advisers.

For the first time, a team of four British lawyers from the Crown Prosecution Service will work alongside police in Germany to build up evidence suitable for the English courts. Nick Hawkins, who will head the CPS delegation, said: "We hope that we will be the most under-employed people in Germany during the tournament. But sadly from time to time a small number of people mar the reputation of the decent fans.

"We will use evidence collected in Germany to make sure any English fans who cause trouble there will receive a football banning order when they return home.''
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../nfootie110.xml

German Fans Trying to Rival English Chanting

By David Crossland in Cologne

German football fans, electrified by a new sense of national pride and the success of their team in the World Cup so far, have been taking on the world's best football chanters -- England supporters -- and they're getting close, at least in terms of volume. The lyrics still fall short, however.


On Tuesday, the supporters of European football's most traditional rivals, England and Germany, staged impromptu chanting competitions in the center of Cologne, packed with tens of thousands of England fans in the city for the Group B match against Sweden.

To the visible surprise of England fans, the Germans held their own, although they still need to work on the lyrics, the best effort being "Football's Going Home", a simple but effective variation of the 10-year-old English classic "Football's Coming Home".

Other less imaginative favorites are "Deutschland Deutschland" and "Finale Oh-Oh-Oh-Oh!", "You Can Go Home", and "We're Heading For Berlin Without England" -- the World Cup final is being played in Berlin on July 9.

It seems that German fans, exhilarated by their team's three victories in the tournament so far, are sick of being drowned out on their home turf by roaring Brits. The World Cup has led to an outburst of pent- up German patriotism, stifled by guilt for 60 years.

Germans are already rivalling England in flag-waving and face painting. But England fans still have the edge in the fine art of taunting their opponents through football chants and songs, a tradition honed in their domestic football leagues.

One of the more amusing English offerings is "Five - One, Even Heskey Scored", in reference to England's stunning victory over Germany on September 1, 2001, in Munich, in which striker Emile Heskey, whose skills appear to be the subject of debate, scored the last goal. Not part of the current England squad, Heskey scored 5 goals in his 43 matches for England.

Another favourite is "Sing When You're Winning, You Only Sing When You're Winning" to the tune of "Guantanamera". They have a point. German fans have only recently been turning up the volume with each victory for their team. England fans have been deafening from the very beginning of the tournament.

Nazi era still dominates British view of Germans

As Britain's popular view of Germany remains colored by World War Two -- an obsession which exasperates Germans -- English references to the war abound whenever they meet. Dozens have come to Germany with World War II-era British army helmets, and some have been running around holding up inflatable Spitfires.

They have been sticking to appeals from the British government and the Football Association to refrain from making Nazi salutes, goose-stepping and imitating Hitler, but they haven't managed to ditch the song "Ten German Bombers" whose lyrics are likely to make British diplomats wince.

Set to the tune of "She'll Be Coming Round The Mountain", it goes: "There Were Ten German Bombers in the Air", repeated ad nauseam until the second verse kicks in with "And the RAF From England Shot One Down."

The singers usually have their arms outstretched like Spitfire wings and if they're drunk enough, they'll keep on singing until there are no German bombers in the air, as happened in Cologne on Tuesday.

Their repertoire also includes the tune to World War Two movie "The Great Escape". The age-old chant "Two World Wars and World Cup" is passe and no longer heard, neither is the theme to "The Dambusters."

German police, Britain's Foreign Office, the teams and probably the fans themselves will be relieved that Germany will not be facing England in the first match of the knock-out phase this weekend -- a possibility if England had lost to Sweden instead of drawing 2-2. Now they could only meet if both make it to the final.

Matches between the two are always fraught with national rivalry compounded by memories of classic clashes over the last four decades.

Mention 1966 in Germany and everyone will inform you that the third England goal -- a slammer against the cross bar which bounced down, didn't go in. Mention that it doesn't matter because England went on to score a fourth goal in their 4-2 victory that clinched them the World Cup, and you get told that they wouldn't have scored the fourth goal if the third one had been disallowed.

Since then, World Cup and European Championship encounters have gone Germany's way, several times in agonising penalty shootouts. Since their first match in 1930, they have played each other 25 times counting matches against the West German team. England has won 11 times, lost 9 and there have been 5 draws.http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,422820,00.html

I can't find the lyrics to...
Ten German Bombers
Two World Wars and one World Cup
Who the Fuck are you?
Damn Buster lyrics.
Englanders were advised not to walk like Basil Fawlty!
No surrender to the IRA!
Sure Germany might feel sad about losing World War Two but thinking about banning people from running around pretending to fly like a Spifire?

That is just silly.

Not that it matters because England is gone.
ha ha ha...

Yep the 1st one is from March...
Did Germany pass certain laws so as not to promote their NAZI past or to deny parody or satire?

Did Spitfires even get that much action over Germany?
Their range wasn't that great and the Mustang did a lot of the glory work.

So any thoughts on anything?

Don't mention the war, World Cup fans told
What, me telling you the other day wasn't enough? :rolleyes: :p

So any thoughts on anything?
Are you drunk?

Would you like anything to drink before the war?....ning! That trespassers will be shot.

What, me telling you the other day wasn't enough? :rolleyes: :p
That France and Germany only play nice together now, to annoy America?

I seem to remember you agreeing in part to everything i said.
Are you drunk?
Nope, just want some help finding lyrics and for someone to explain what is so wrong with the Spitfire.

It also reminded me of this...
Hitler Farce Breaks German Taboos
By David Crossland

An alarming sight in Berlin: The city's central "Lustgarten" square transformed into a Nazi rallying ground complete with giant swastika banners and a ranting Führer. But Germany's first comedy film about Hitler was bound to break taboos.

German comedian Helge Schneider portrays Adolf Hitler in Berlin.
Tourists passing in sightseeing buses stared open-mouthed at the scene in central Berlin on Monday: huge red banners bearing the Nazi swastika fluttering in the winter sun outside the city's cathedral, Wehrmacht soldiers in their steel helmets standing guard between the imposing pillars of the Old Museum and a crowd of hundreds cheering their Führer with enthusiastic Hitler salutes and chants of "Sieg Heil!"

But a second glance caught the film crew, catering buses and cinema equipment and quickly dispelled any concern that the Fourth Reich had quietly dawned in Germany over the weekend. Still, the sight was unusual enough to draw a crowd of onlookers and it marked a bold first in the history of German cinema since World War II -- a comedy about Hitler.

"Mein Führer: The Truly Truest Truth About Adolf Hitler" by Swiss director Dani Levy, who is Jewish, takes a tongue-in-cheek look at Hitler's final days and parodies both the dictator and recent portrayals of him such as the critically-acclaimed 2004 film "Der Untergang" ("The Downfall"), which itself broke a taboo by attempting to showing the Nazi leader's human side.

Levy has said he wants the film to be an "anti-signal" against films which he believes have put Hitler on too much of a pedestal. The film is being backed with €450,000 of public money from film development firm Medienboard Berlin-Brandenburg which describes the plot as follows: "Hitler lives and tells the story of what he was really like -- a weakling who only made it to the top with the help of the Jew Grünbaum."

In Chaplin's Footsteps

It remains to be seen whether the film can match the 1940 classic "The Great Dictator" in which Charlie Chaplin as "Adenoid Hynkel" dances around his office holding the earth in his hands in the shape of a big balloon and holds rabid speeches in gibberish German in which "Wienerschnitzel" seems to be the only recognizable word.

Levy's Hitler is portrayed by German comedian Helge Schneider -- who is perhaps best-known for his hit song "Katzeklo" about a cat litter box sung in a slightly disturbing nasal tone. Levy won acclaim for his 2004 comedy "Alles Auf Zucker" about an atheist sports journalist from eastern Germany forced to reconcile himself with his brother, an orthodox Jew from western Germany, to get hold of his mother's inheritance.

A German-made farce about Hitler would have been unthinkable until quite recently. But the gradual dying out of the Nazi era generation -- over 80 percent of Germans today were born after 1941 -- has given the country a more detached view of its past, even though politicians continue to acknowledge the country's deep moral responsibility for the Holocaust.

Several taboos have fallen in recent years. Germans have started recalling their own suffering in bombing raids and mass evictions from eastern territories. An intimate -- if unsympathetic -- portrayal of Hitler followed in "The Downfall." And the public ZDF television channel is currently screening a film about the February 1945 bombing of Dresden, which some Germans see as the unnecessary destruction of a city that caused mostly civilian casualties.

So despite a headline in top-selling tabloid Bild Zeitung alerting people to the "Swastika Shock in Berlin," the sight of the Nazi symbol didn't stoke much controversy. The president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Paul Spiegel, told the paper: "Helge Schneider and Dani Levy have the ability to approach this work with the necessary sensitivity."

Tourists as extras

Some tourists even joined in as extras to beef up the 300-strong crowd, which Levy plans to enhance digitally to give the impression of a mass rally.

Steve Krause, 31, an Aryan-looking American student, was picked along with a number of fellow students to join the crowd hailing the Führer. "I'm going to have to try not to laugh," said Krause, who just happened to be passing when a member of staff lured him with the offer of a hot chocolate after the shoot.

Dutch tourist Louw Hekkema couldn't believe his eyes at first. "I thought there was a far-right demonstration going on," he said. "I don't think making such a film here is a problem anymore."

Since Nazi symbols like the swastika and SS runes are banned in Germany, Levy obtained special permission to display his banners.

Locals watching the filming also didn't seem particularly bothered by it. One Berlin pensioner said he remembered watching the real Hitler hold a May Day speech from the same spot 65 years ago. "We Berliners came here and cheered," said the man who declined to be named. "I don't see why anyone should get angry about a film being made here. It's part of our history."

Ten German Bombers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69WxBX6Ry8s&search=ten%20german%20bombers
As you can hear, the lyrics are an unintelligible groan, roughly resempling something like "There is ten German bombers in the air..." and "and the RAF from England shot one down."

Sure Germany might feel sad about losing World War Two but thinking about banning people from running around pretending to fly like a Spifire?

That is just silly.
I think the issue is about English fans using that sort of thing to provoke German fans, and violence will ensue. You might remember that even gentle old me can get a little annoyed with the Nazi references, no matter how jokingly they're done. Now imagine me drunk with a crowd of patriotic football fans.
It's a recipe for trouble.

Did Germany pass certain laws so as not to promote their NAZI past or to deny parody or satire?
The Nazi laws are just regarding the glorification of the regime, and denial of the Holocaust. English fans would not break any laws. But they would make people angry, and angry fans is not what either the hosts nor the English government and FA want to see.

Old. I think Harles is hooked on the P. He seems more erratic than usual.

Nazi era still dominates British view of Germans

As Britain's popular view of Germany remains colored by World War Two -- an obsession which exasperates Germans -- English references to the war abound whenever they meet.
That's it in a nutshell. And "exasperates" is *exactly* the right word.


Sure Germany might feel sad about losing World War Two Er.... no.
Way to miss the point. :rolleyes:

It's basically that we grow up to be extremely self-critical and aware of our country's past and, in many cases (though not all, as e.g. Von Witzleben will happily attest) are constantly on guard and ready to apologize for what our forebears did.

And no German would reasonably expect or even hope for the war never to come up in any conversation with other nationalities ever again, that's not at all the point.
What's so grating is that for Germans, the war is quite obviously no laughing matter. "We" killed millions and millions of people and we will always have to live with that knowledge and that guilt.

Yet, at the same time, the world (and, increasingly, people in our country) expects us to "get over it already", as evidenced by the delight many outside commentators seem to take in the fact that the Germans have found their "patriotism" again as evidenced in the flag waving at the World Cup, which scared myself badly enough to make a thread about it a couple weeks ago.

Maybe I speak only for myself, but to me, the English humour regarding Germany is mostly just not funny to us - it's like you've been repenting for a collective crime all your life and people will still not let you forget about it even during a moment that should be fun and carefree. And it's absolutely their right not to let us live it down, but they shouldn't expect us to laugh about it either. Sorry.

Did Germany pass certain laws so as not to promote their NAZI past or to deny parody or satire? Well, considering that parody and satire on the Nazi era and, especially, Hitler, have actually only been starting rather recently really, I don't think they were in the thoughts of those making the laws (I may wrong on that, though, I don't know enough about it). WWII is a very touchy subject here, and about the last word anyone would connect with our heritage of that time would be "funny", so every stand-up comic taking on the topic walks an incredibly fine line between success and utter failure. The chances of any laughter dying in the audience's throats are still big.



And, finally, to get back to the issue I was taking up with you during the France-Brazil game:

Bad enough that the French surrender jokes are as retarded and pointless as can be, I *hated* how not only did they come up in that thread, but also how people immediately seized on the "Oooh, let's hope for a France-Germany final, then we can get out all the good jokes, LOL!" :rolleyes:

Like I said in that thread - France and Germany have a fantastic relationship today, because of the huge efforts on both sides over the last half century to make it so. And they succeeded.

If you asked people here what they'd associate with an England-Germany final, everybody would come up with how the English hate us (and yeah, I've seen that most English here on NS say that's not true and how it's just acerbic British humour, and while my brain actually even believes that - kinda, sorta, maybe - my guts still don't) and how there would be hooligans making the Hitler salute all over the place.

If you asked people what they'd associate with a France-Germany final, I'd bet you 100 Euros (and that's an awful lot of New Zealand money) that the war would be about the very, very last thing anybody would come up with.

So excuse me if I don't fall off my chair laughing just because some people who've never even been either here on in France get their rocks off on making endlessly lame jokes in the soccer threads.

[/justified grumpiness. Hrmph.]

Old. I think Harles is hooked on the P. He seems more erratic than usual.
From March like i said.:p

"We Berliners came here and cheered," said the man who declined to be named. "I don't see why anyone should get angry about a film being made here. It's part of our history."

Crazy germans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69WxB...rman%20bombers
As you can hear, the lyrics are an unintelligible groan, roughly resempling something like "There is ten German bombers in the air..." and "and the RAF from England shot one down."
danke
What is up with youtube? is it the 'new thing'?
I think the issue is about English fans using that sort of thing to provoke German fans, and violence will ensue. You might remember that even gentle old me can get a little annoyed with the Nazi references, no matter how jokingly they're done. Now imagine me drunk with a crowd of patriotic football fans.
It's a recipe for trouble.

Yep you are right, in that second article it mentioned the sing off i think...
That could have become heated.
The Nazi laws are just regarding the glorification of the regime, and denial of the Holocaust. English fans would not break any laws. But they would make people angry, and angry fans is not what either the hosts nor the English government and FA want to see.
British Home Secretary Charles Clarke would have sold any of the Poms up the river.

'Glorifying the NAZI past is a criminal offence.'-The Times
But mocking isn't glorifying.
Silly Doomsayers.

...I'd bet you 100 Euros (and that's an awful lot of New Zealand money)...
Ouch! :D

What is up with youtube? is it the 'new thing'?
I think it's great. Ask the in-crowd.

'Glorifying the NAZI past is a criminal offence.'-The Times
But mocking isn't glorifying.
Silly Doomsayers.
"Mocking"...I'm sorry but I just don't see how "mocking" can in any way be the right word to use for this. It's nothing to be "mocked" about. Ask any of the British who lived through the bombings and ask them whether they like those songs.
"Mocking" implies a bit of harmless fun. This never is. Not ever.

Ouch! :D
What can I say - it's still Harlesy, so I thought I'd save the venom for the most harmless barb. ;)

That's it in a nutshell. And "exasperates" is *exactly* the right word.


Er.... no.
Way to miss the point. :rolleyes:

It's basically that we grow up to be extremely self-critical and aware of our country's past and, in many cases (though not all, as e.g. Von Witzleben will happily attest) are constantly on guard and ready to apologize for what our forebears did.

And no German would reasonably expect or even hope for the war never to come up in any conversation with other nationalities ever again, that's not at all the point.
What's so grating is that for Germans, the war is quite obviously no laughing matter. "We" killed millions and millions of people and we will always have to live with that knowledge and that guilt.

Yet, at the same time, the world (and, increasingly, people in our country) expects us to "get over it already", as evidenced by the delight many outside commentators seem to take in the fact that the Germans have found their "patriotism" again as evidenced in the flag waving at the World Cup, which scared myself badly enough to make a thread about it a couple weeks ago.

Maybe I speak only for myself, but to me, the English humour regarding Germany is mostly just not funny to us - it's like you've been repenting for a collective crime all your life and people will still not let you forget about it even during a moment that should be fun and carefree. And it's absolutely their right not to let us live it down, but they shouldn't expect us to laugh about it either. Sorry.

Well, considering that parody and satire on the Nazi era and, especially, Hitler, have actually only been starting rather recently really, I don't think they were in the thoughts of those making the laws (I may wrong on that, though, I don't know enough about it). WWII is a very touchy subject here, and about the last word anyone would connect with our heritage of that time would be "funny", so every stand-up comic taking on the topic walks an incredibly fine line between success and utter failure. The chances of any laughter dying in the audience's throats are still big.



And, finally, to get back to the issue I was taking up with you during the France-Brazil game:

Bad enough that the French surrender jokes are as retarded and pointless as can be, I *hated* how not only did they come up in that thread, but also how people immediately seized on the "Oooh, let's hope for a France-Germany final, then we can get out all the good jokes, LOL!" :rolleyes:

Like I said in that thread - France and Germany have a fantastic relationship today, because of the huge efforts on both sides over the last half century to make it so. And they succeeded.

If you asked people here what they'd associate with an England-Germany final, everybody would come up with how the English hate us (and yeah, I've seen that most English here on NS say that's not true and how it's just acerbic British humour, and while my brain actually even believes that - kinda, sorta, maybe - my guts still don't) and how there would be hooligans making the Hitler salute all over the place.

If you asked people what they'd associate with a France-Germany final, I'd bet you 100 Euros (and that's an awful lot of New Zealand money) that the war would be about the very, very last thing anybody would come up with.

So excuse me if I don't fall off my chair laughing just because some people who've never even been either here on in France get their rocks off on making endlessly lame jokes in the soccer threads.

[/justified grumpiness. Hrmph.]
*yawns*
Gosh i really know how to press your buttons.
Euros is only like 1-2 or 1-3.:rolleyes:

*yawns*
Gosh i really know how to press your buttons.
Euros is only like 1-2 or 1-3.:rolleyes:
Wow. I'm underwhelmed.

Ouch! :D

100 euros would buy you a resonable car anyway.

I actually think that the EU should only be allowed to field one team.

So they would have to have a European elimination, or send a composite team.

I think it's great. Ask the in-crowd.


"Mocking"...I'm sorry but I just don't see how "mocking" can in any way be the right word to use for this. It's nothing to be "mocked" about. Ask any of the British who lived through the bombings and ask them whether they like those songs.
"Mocking" implies a bit of harmless fun. This never is. Not ever.
maybe it isn't the right word, i should have said 'mocking' bu i don't believe all English Football fans hate Germany and by all i don't mean most i mean some do.

What can I say - it's still Harlesy, so I thought I'd save the venom for the most harmless barb.;)
Your shot is weak and it misses the mark, i am disapointed in you as you are normally so good at them.:(

Wow. I'm underwhelmed.
Brilliant.

I actually think that the EU should only be allowed to field one team.

So they would have to have a European elimination, or send a composite team.

And that would make America more likely to win? :rolleyes:

And that would make America more likely to win? :rolleyes:

No. I could care less if the US won or lost.

It seems odd that Europe can unify, but still field a great number of teams.

maybe it isn't the right word, i should have said 'mocking' bu i don't believe all English Football fans hate Germany and by all i don't mean most i mean some do.
Naw, dude. It's more complicated than that. It's not a question of hate vs not hate.
I made a thread a while back asking why the Brits hated the Germans, and the Brits told me they didn't. I believe them.

But you're not telling me that that relationship is normal, are you? Try to be a German football fan, waving your German flag in England. You'll get bashed.
Try the same as an English fan in Germany, and people will let you be as eccentric as you want to be. The English admitted as much in a discussion regarding a BBC article about whether it is okay for the Germans to fly their flag again.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=478409
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,556024,00.html
http://www.ex.ac.uk/german/abinitio/whygerm1.html
http://www.zeit.de/archiv/1999/40/199940.t-briten_.xml

No. I could care less if the US won or lost.

It seems odd that Europe can unify, but still field a great number of teams.


errr, because Europe is still made up of a lot of different countries.

Am i missing something here?

No. I could care less if the US won or lost.

It seems odd that Europe can unify, but still field a great number of teams.

Europe is far from unified. The EU will likely never be more than what it is now. Too many cultural and national divisions.

Naw, dude. It's more complicated than that. It's not a question of hate vs not hate.
I made a thread a while back asking why the Brits hated the Germans, and the Brits told me they didn't. I believe them.

But you're not telling me that that relationship is normal, are you? Try to be a German football fan, waving your German flag in England. You'll get bashed.
Try the same as an English fan in Germany, and people will let you be as eccentric as you want to be. The English admitted as much in a discussion regarding a BBC article about whether it is okay for the Germans to fly their flag again.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=478409
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,556024,00.html
http://www.ex.ac.uk/german/abinitio/whygerm1.html
http://www.zeit.de/archiv/1999/40/199940.t-briten_.xml
I don't believe it is about hate.
The way i would answer that is Germany has always been percieved as an efficent hard working nation whereas England is rather 'peasantry' sure Germany has thugs but England is just crawling with them.
But it isn't just an English thing the Scots have it too.
This Kiwi kid got assaulted by a grown man for wearing an England Jersey.
Scotland isn't even at the world cup the last time was '98? England is the 'closet thing to representation'( not that it matters to die hard fans) but a kid...