NationStates Jolt Archive


North Korean Military: A Paper Tiger?

Minkonio
03-07-2006, 07:20
Article:Why North Korea Must Have Nukes (http://www.strategypage.com/hotstuff/articles/dls20059261342.asp)
Why North Korea Must Have Nukes
by James Dunnigan
September 23, 2005


North Korea still refuses to exchange its nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles for increased economic aid and guarantees of peace. Even though the population is starving, and the economy is a mess, the northerners hold tightly to their nukes. This seems strange, when you consider that North Korea has one of the largest armies in the region. With over a million troops on active duty, most of them conscripts in for at least six years, North Korea has long threatened to invade South Korea again, as it did in 1950. But the reality of the North Korean armed forces is quite different. Over the last few years, more South Koreans, plus aid workers from outside the region, have been allowed in North Korea, where they see what is actually going on. That, plus more North Koreans have been getting out. This has made it possible to make a more accurate assessment of military power in the north.

First of all, their equipment is old, decrepit and poorly maintained. Most of their tanks are elderly T-62s (a 1960s design), and T-54s (a half century old design). Fuel shortages make it impossible to train the crews, especially the drivers. Money shortages mean few spare parts and little gunnery practice. Put their 3,000 tanks up against what South Korea and the U.S. has, and there will be a general slaughter of the North Korean vehicles. Iraq had better tanks, and better trained crews in 1991 and 2003, and got quickly blown off the battlefield both times. The North Korean air force is not much better, although they have gotten some MiG-29s, but they cannot afford the fuel for their pilots to fly them on many training missions. It’s another massacre in the making. The navy is in slightly better shape, as they have some submarines that could be a problem. Again, these boats don’t get to sea that often, which means the crews will make mistakes in wartime.

The big fear down south was always been the hundreds of thousands of North Korean infantry coming across the border, especially through the mountainous, forested portions in the east. But the North Korean infantry is poorly fed, led and trained. Despite diverting resources, including foreign food donations, to the military, there has not been enough to keep the army up to snuff. Even over 100,000 commandoes, long believed to be a key weapon in any move south, are hobbled by lack of resources. Most of these elite troops will have to hike over the mountains along the DMZ, because their air and sea transport is no longer in working order. The South Koreans are also prepared to deal with these troops, at least enough to make sure the northern super soldiers are not a decisive weapon.

Even the North Korean artillery and rockets, many of them within range of the South Korean capital, Seoul, are much less potent than they used to be. Lack of fuel and spare parts has limited training, and the North Korean tactics were never that effective anyway. While a few hundred of the long range guns, and rockets, can reach Seoul (and kill hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians), most of the northern artillery will get destroyed by superior artillery and air power.

The North Korean leadership are apparently well aware of all this. Which is why they place so much faith in nuclear weapons. Only nukes can put them back into the balance of terror game, and provide a credible weapon with which to blackmail their neighbors, and the United States.

And, here's a similiar article for those who find the StrategyPage 'biased':
North Korean Military Capability. (http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/currentconflicts/a/koreanmilitary.htm)
(Warning: 3-page article)
Forgotten Sith Lords
03-07-2006, 07:46
Was their "military might" threatening in the first place?
Non Aligned States
03-07-2006, 07:51
This is a bit on the daft side. The real threat of North Korean weaponry has always been it's artillery which if ordered to, can turn Seoul into a flaming sea of death in short order. Unless SK/US strikes first, which would be stupid, the notion that the firing sites can be destroyed before they actually open up is at best, daft.

If NK does decide to attack without a doubt it would get trashed. But the problem is that it would take Seoul and as a result, half the population of SK, maybe more, with it. Maybe the US wouldn't really care about them, but the people of SK certainly wouldn't want it.

Besides, a lot more South Koreans are more inclined to reunification than blowing the shit out of each other.
Trostia
03-07-2006, 07:53
Yes, it's true that NK military has obsolete equipment, mediocre or poor training and not much capability for long wars of attrition against the US. This is news?

I find it interesting that it shrugs and dismisses the threat of NK artillery to Seoul. "Oh, there'd be hundreds of thousands of innocent lives possibly destroyed, but we'd get them NK artillery in the end!"

A fact which doesn't lessen the threat or make them a "paper tiger." Their military is powerful enough to be a threat to South Korea and that's sufficient. Especially if anyone considered the Iraqi military in Gulf War II to be a threat to anyone.

As for the nuclear option, well, if you can shrug off the conventional military as a paper tiger, I could say the same thing for a nuclear armed NK, with the same reasoning. "Oh sure, NK could slaughter millions if it had nukes, but in the end, we'd nuke them back and NK knows it."

It's the same argument, that seems mostly intended to just dismiss NK. (Possibly to justify further operations in Iraq?)

North Korea with nukes is a threat, without nukes is still a threat only with a lower body count to those it threatens. But that tiger is real in both cases.
Sonaj
03-07-2006, 07:58
Ah, but cannot a paper tiger also give you papercuts, young grasshopper?
Barbaric Tribes
03-07-2006, 08:22
Still, lack of all this, if the North attacked the South, it would be one hell of a long and bloody afair, on both sides. But without China's support, North Korea would lose eventually.
Non Aligned States
03-07-2006, 08:22
Ah, but cannot a paper tiger also give you papercuts, young grasshopper?

As long as it's not him suffering the papercuts, I don't think James Dunnigan cares. If we were to extrapolate his attitude, South Koreans are about as expendable as toilet paper.

Sadly, Mikonio appears to have the same view. Or perhaps merely did not read the fine print.
Wilgrove
03-07-2006, 08:39
Madman/Nutcase + Nukes = Screwed.

That goes both for Iran and North Korea.
Markreich
03-07-2006, 10:31
Was their "military might" threatening in the first place?

The Korean War: 1950 - present. The Koreas are still at war, though there has been a cease fire for 50 years or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war
Minkonio
03-07-2006, 21:29
As long as it's not him suffering the papercuts, I don't think James Dunnigan cares. If we were to extrapolate his attitude, South Koreans are about as expendable as toilet paper.

Sadly, Mikonio appears to have the same view. Or perhaps merely did not read the fine print.
Sorry, I forgot that rabidly anti-war nutcases were for getting potentially billions of people killed by a nutcase with nukes...Maybe we should all sit back and let the nukes fall...It's not like western civilization is worth fighting for anyway...Right? Right?

People might have to die to prevent more deaths...Sad but true. Stop being naive.
Vetalia
03-07-2006, 21:32
North Korea can barely feed its soliders, let alone keep them supplied. In all honesty, I'd be surprised if North Korea has enough ammunition and fuel for their defensesto last more than a few weeks; if it came to a fight, their military would collapse...that doesn't mean there wouldn't be heavy losses and damage in the meantime.
Deep Kimchi
03-07-2006, 21:35
This is a bit on the daft side. The real threat of North Korean weaponry has always been it's artillery which if ordered to, can turn Seoul into a flaming sea of death in short order. Unless SK/US strikes first, which would be stupid, the notion that the firing sites can be destroyed before they actually open up is at best, daft.

If NK does decide to attack without a doubt it would get trashed. But the problem is that it would take Seoul and as a result, half the population of SK, maybe more, with it. Maybe the US wouldn't really care about them, but the people of SK certainly wouldn't want it.

Besides, a lot more South Koreans are more inclined to reunification than blowing the shit out of each other.


Which is why ballistic missile defense seems to be a much better option than blasting North Korea into oblivion.

Of course, if North Korea starts a land war on its own, the US can hardly be blamed if Seoul goes up in smoke.
Franberry
03-07-2006, 21:36
North Korea can barely feed its soliders, let alone keep them supplied. In all honesty, I'd be surprised if North Korea has enough ammunition and fuel for their defensesto last more than a few weeks; if it came to a fight, their military would collapse...that doesn't mean there wouldn't be heavy losses and damage in the meantime.
quite true

a North Korea without nukes is a threat to South Korea as Belgium is to Germany. Their military sucks, their economy sucks, after a coupel defeats their morale will suck. At the first sight of foreign soldiers NK will prbly surrender


And a North Korea with nukes is much more, but do they even have them?
Nonexistentland
03-07-2006, 22:06
Article:Why North Korea Must Have Nukes (http://www.strategypage.com/hotstuff/articles/dls20059261342.asp)


And, here's a similiar article for those who find the StrategyPage 'biased':
North Korean Military Capability. (http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/currentconflicts/a/koreanmilitary.htm)
(Warning: 3-page article)

I don't understand how North Korea's "inept" military is a bad thing...
Minkonio
03-07-2006, 22:14
I don't understand how North Korea's "inept" military is a bad thing...
Did I say it was a bad thing? Of course I did'nt....It's a good thing, a very good thing.

This means we can invade them more easily than first imagined, to prevent them from proliferating nuclear materials...And as a cherry topping, we get to liberate more people who've been oppressed for decades, and unite the two Koreas.