NationStates Jolt Archive

First of all, let me make two things clear.

1. I am not a Wiccan. (I am a Hindu)

2. I just read the Wiccan Rede, and a lot of this stuff makes sense. Let's see how much of this is compatible with your own beliefs.

And now....the full text of the Wiccan Rede

Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust. Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.

For tread the Circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out. To bind the spell well every time, let the spell be said in rhyme.

Light of eye and soft of touch, speak you little, listen much. Honor the Old Ones in deed and name, let love and light be our guides again.

Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out the joyful tune. Widdershins go when the moon doth wane, and the werewolf howls by the dread wolfsbane.

When the Lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to Her times two. When the moon rides at Her peak then your heart's desire seek.

Heed the North winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail. When the Wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss you on the mouth. When the wind whispers from the West, all hearts will find peace and rest.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow. Birch in the fire goes to represent what the Lady knows.

Oak in the forest towers with might, in the fire it brings the God's insight. Rowan is a tree of power causing life and magick to flower.

Willows at the waterside stand ready to help us to the Summerland. Hawthorn is burned to purify and to draw faerie to your eye.

Hazel-the tree of wisdom and learning adds its strength to the bright fire burning. White are the flowers of Apple tree that brings us fruits of fertility.

Grapes grow upon the vine giving us both joy and wine. Fir does mark the evergreen to represent immortality seen.

Elder is the Lady's tree burn it not or cursed you'll be. Four times the Major Sabbats mark in the light and in the dark.

As the old year starts to wane the new begins, it's now Samhain. When the time for Imbolc shows watch for flowers through the snows.

When the wheel begins to turn soon the Beltane fires will burn. As the wheel turns to Lamas night power is brought to magick rite.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall use the Sun to mark them all. When the wheel has turned to Yule light the log the Horned One rules.

In the spring, when night equals day time for Ostara to come our way. When the Sun has reached it's height time for Oak and Holly to fight.

Harvesting comes to one and all when the Autumn Equinox does fall. Heed the flower, bush, and tree by the Lady blessed you'll be.

Where the rippling waters go cast a stone, the truth you'll know. When you have and hold a need, harken not to others' greed.

With a fool no season spend or be counted as his friend. Merry Meet and Merry Part bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good. When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow.

Be true in love this you must do unless your love is false to you.

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

W00T FIRST POST.
I haven't ever agreed with anything you've posted.
I STILL DON'T.

Awww...that's too bad.

Bide within the Law you must

Ok Yoda.

Think you a retard, I do.

Every Wiccan I've ever known has been crazy. That's part of their appeal to me.

w00t! w00t! GO WICCANS GO! w00t! w00t!

We'll, in the early 1900's, women pushed to get the vote. Now, 100 years later, they want to take it away from the men...

Think you a retard, I do.
Me or Keruvila?

We'll, in the early 1900's, women pushed to get the vote. Now, 100 years later, they want to take it away from the men...
Do you think a Wiccan is a Female Feminist Witch?

Hardly crazy maniacs, more like silly kids.

Meh, any excuse for a party.

I don't care about wicca or wiccans or wiccaish or whatever. They were going to build some sort of Wiccan building here in my part of the sticks in TX a while back. The rednecks barely tolerated the Baptists. They wouldn't tolerate a wiccan whatever in their city. And the wiccans moved it for want of a more friendly area :D

I don't care about wicca or wiccans or wiccaish or whatever. They were going to build some sort of Wiccan building here in my part of the sticks in TX a while back. The rednecks barely tolerated the Baptists. They wouldn't tolerate a wiccan whatever in their city. And the wiccans moved it for want of a more friendly area :D
You should be so proud...

I don't care about wicca or wiccans or wiccaish or whatever. They were going to build some sort of Wiccan building here in my part of the sticks in TX a while back. The rednecks barely tolerated the Baptists. They wouldn't tolerate a wiccan whatever in their city. And the wiccans moved it for want of a more friendly area :DWhat is there not to tolerate? If the above is the sum total of Wiccan dogma, then it seems rather a lot nicer than any of the mainstream religions. I mean, it's essentially the same thing, just without all the bullshit woman hating, child-stoning, genocidall authoritarian wank.

A religion with the sole creed of "Don't be an arse".. Who would've thought it possible.

To the OP: Where did you find this information? From what I know, there are many branches or variations of Wicca. I'm wondering which source this came from.

I don't care about wicca or wiccans or wiccaish or whatever. They were going to build some sort of Wiccan building here in my part of the sticks in TX a while back. The rednecks barely tolerated the Baptists. They wouldn't tolerate a wiccan whatever in their city. And the wiccans moved it for want of a more friendly area :D

Guess there's something to be said for intolerance!

....erm....


....no, really can't back that on second thoughts.

Very poetic. To an extent, I agree with the general message, but almost all of our actions have some influence on others, and the sweeping proposition doesn't really take this into account.

Haha all the atheists and agnostics are gunna think i'm insane.
Oh well.

Now i don't know much about Wicka specificly but I know that magic is very real, however contrary to populer belief there is no "Good" magic, and no :headbang: angels don't talk to people through terra cards.

and acually it doesn't match my beleifs much at all.....lol

P.S I don't think wickens are crazy.... :D

no :headbang: angels don't talk to people through terra cards.
You mean Tarot cards? There's no magic in those at all; it's all about divining wisdom from art and tradition then mixing it up with a little subconscious manipulation of cards.

I don't believe in Christianity, and as far as I can tell, most people adhering to this religion are merely reacting against the mainstream religion (I don't know how the two religions compare age-wise, but that doesn't matter).

This can't possibly be all of their scripture, or whatever they have.

Anyway, I don't think Wiccans are crazy, just stupid and rebellious.

Wicca? It has branches like Christianity, Islam and Hinduism do.

Some are really amusingly close-minded.

The only problem I have with Wicca is my tendency to confuse it with a type of furniture construction. :p

The only problem I have with Wicca is my tendency to confuse it with a type of furniture construction. :p

*pictures LG putting his feet up on a goth on all fours*

*pictures LG putting his feet up on a goth on all fours*

You should see my wicca swingset. :)

You should see my wicca swingset. :)
I have a wicker swingset... not quite as impressive i spose.

Liasia']I have a wicker swingset... not quite as impressive i spose.
If I knew where you lived, I'd burn it. My God, I hate wicker. Have you ever tried to sand paint off of wicker? Chemicals don't get into all the nooks in crannies. THE HORROR. the horror.

Hmm... the church of fluffbunny? How quaint.

If I knew where you lived, I'd burn it. My God, I hate wicker. Have you ever tried to sand paint off of wicker? Chemicals don't get into all the nooks in crannies. THE HORROR. the horror.
That's convienient, because its in the shape of a huge man and I was about to fill it with virgins. You can come to the party if you like.
*apologies for that reference to the worst film ever, except timeline.

Liasia']That's convienient, because its in the shape of a huge man and I was about to fill it with virgins. You can come to the party if you like.
*apologies for that reference to the worst film ever, except timeline.
I'm lost but I admit that the promise of virgins intrigue me.

As a Wiccan my common sense says to walk away from this thread slowly and never look again. But common sense lost.

I'll be the first to admit that a bunch of people who call themselves Wicca are a bunch of crazy bast****. But that is the minority. Quite a few of us you would never be able to spot on the street and wouldn't know our religion unless we told you. In fact I've been confused with my devoutly catholic friend more times then I can count just because we dress and speak in much the same mannor. In real life. Here I become fiercly proud and outspoken about my religion. But again, some are nut-so. Then again there are a few nuts in every religion and on the whole Wiccans are not violent nuts. We can't be. Rule of three and all that. (Anything you do comes back to you three-fold)

I'm lost but I admit that the promise of virgins intrigue me.
The wicker man! Jeez! It's the only film i've ever seen where some naked chick bangs her beaver on a wall for 10 minuites and then it cuts to a jar of goat's testes in a graveyard. It's some arse 1970s horror 'classic'.

Liasia']The wicker man! Jeez! It's the only film i've ever seen where some naked chick bangs her beaver on a wall for 10 minuites and then it cuts to a jar of goat's testes in a graveyard. It's some arse 1970s horror 'classic'.
I...
I'm speechless. I need to take a cold shower.

I...
I'm speechless. I need to take a cold shower.
So did most of the actors from that I suspect.
I did say it was rubbish.

no one is truely in a religion untill they are over 18 and out of high school, or learn to think for themselves and stop the constent urge to be "different" in order to fit in.

up untill then if you christian, hindu, wiccan, muslim, or what ever. you are nothing but in a cult. i have seen to many high school students that will say stuff such as "im a wiccan" they maybe know a little base to it but a couple years down the line when they are out of the high school enviroment they seem to have forgotten all about their wiccan faith. same goes with all religions and cults.

no one is truely in a religion untill they are over 18 and out of high school, or learn to think for themselves and stop the constent urge to be "different" in order to fit in.

up untill then if you christian, hindu, wiccan, muslim, or what ever. you are nothing but in a cult. i have seen to many high school students that will say stuff such as "im a wiccan" they maybe know a little base to it but a couple years down the line when they are out of the high school enviroment they seem to have forgotten all about their wiccan faith. same goes with all religions and cults.
What about atheism? Am I too immature to believe in nothing?

Liasia']What about atheism? Am I too immature to believe in nothing?

You can believe in smurfs. :)

You can believe in smurfs. :)
Oh great. Makes life worth it. Unless i'm gonna get some lady-smurf action, I don't see the point.

Liasia']Oh great. Makes life worth it. Unless i'm gonna get some lady-smurf action, I don't see the point.

There's only one lady smurf so you'll have to share.

Unless you want Brainy smurf. You can have him. :)

There's only one lady smurf so you'll have to share.

Unless you want Brainy smurf. You can have him. :)
*sniffs* wouldn't want him. Maybe for a bit of light after-dinner conversation, but i think full-on anal might be a bit much.

First of all, let me make two things clear.

1. I am not a Wiccan. (I am a Hindu)

2. I just read the Wiccan Rede, and a lot of this stuff makes sense. Let's see how much of this is compatible with your own beliefs.

I don't think they're crazy. Just silly little girls who are looking for an excuse to prance around naked in the moonlight without having to become strippers.

My impression of Wicca is that it has as much theological validity as a game of D&D or an episode of Charmed or Buffy. But they are a peaceful lot and are thus due a lot more respect than certain other cults that shall remain un-I-dentified.

Liasia']*sniffs* wouldn't want him. Maybe for a bit of light after-dinner conversation, but i think full-on anal might be a bit much.

Your loss. I hear he could suck-start a leaf blower.

:eek:

Your loss. I hear he could suck-start a leaf blower.

:eek:
I've been told glasses are an indicator of oral prowess.. all the schoolgirls you see in porn movies have glasses, and they seem to know what they're doing. And of course, porn reflects reality completely.

Wiccans just need to chill out a bit.. get a job or something.

You mean Tarot cards? There's no magic in those at all; it's all about divining wisdom from art and tradition then mixing it up with a little subconscious manipulation of cards.


Do not confuse terra cards with tarot cards, plus usualy those who use tarot cards claim to be phsycic

no one is truely in a religion untill they are over 18 and out of high school, or learn to think for themselves and stop the constent urge to be "different" in order to fit in.

up untill then if you christian, hindu, wiccan, muslim, or what ever. you are nothing but in a cult. i have seen to many high school students that will say stuff such as "im a wiccan" they maybe know a little base to it but a couple years down the line when they are out of the high school enviroment they seem to have forgotten all about their wiccan faith. same goes with all religions and cults.


WOW!!! Dude, i'm 14 and i have disproven so many people through a combination of science and scripture it's unbeleivable, i have gained the title "Jesus Boy" because i act and live in faith i don't say i beleive and go act like everyone else. Also don't say i was influenced because my entire family except my mom is catholic, witch is so far from what I beleive and was a Christian before my mom.

Oh yeah and i live on libral long island, I know about an eighth of my school, and there is one other Christian that i know of, thats out of four thousand.

Ok Yoda.

she said law - not force!

The Wiccan Creed states that you don not, as a Wiccan Follower speak of your craft, it is a private practise, true wiccan members do not try to influence other's into their belief system, and generally do not judge other religions openly.

Those who actually follow the ways in the true sense that they were intended do so peacefully and privately. Then there are those who use it like a fashion accessory - it's become 'cool' in recent years to be a 'witch' - thanks to shows such as Charmed and Supernatural (not dissing them at all just using them as an example) - and it distracts from the true values of the craft. It's people with no understanding of the basic principles who think it's all about sitting round a smoking pot chanting and scying with grandma's old necklace while broadcasting it over the net who are... mis-informed - as apposed to crazy :)

To the OP: Where did you find this information? From what I know, there are many branches or variations of Wicca. I'm wondering which source this came from.

There aren't many variations or branches of Wicca, actually. This is just a common myth put out by the New Age community to lump pseudo-Wiccan New Age traditions in with Wicca, the religion created by Gardner less than a century ago.

What is there not to tolerate? If the above is the sum total of Wiccan dogma, then it seems rather a lot nicer than any of the mainstream religions. I mean, it's essentially the same thing, just without all the bullshit woman hating, child-stoning, genocidall authoritarian wank.

What was listed in the OP isn't the sum total of Wiccan dogma. Rather, it is just the part that pseudo-Wiccan kids today read, while ignoring the early Wiccan dogmas laid out by the creator of the religion. Such as the 161 laws of Wicca, which I'll go ahead and list some off this website (http://wicca.timerift.net/laws/161.html) for you:

#3 "The Wicca should give due worship to the gods and obey their will, which they ordain, for it was made for the good of Wicca as the worship of the Wicca is good for the gods. For the gods love the brethren of Wicca." (So, this law excludes anyone from being a Wiccan who doesn't worship the Wiccan deities. All of the pseudo-Wiccans who claim to worship Egyptian gods, Greek, etc., sorry, not by these laws you don't.)

#4 "As a man loveth a woman by mastering her, so should the Wicca love the gods by being mastered by them." (Gardner was a male chauvinist. Wicca reflects that. So much for all of those feminist Wiccans)

#10 "For in this way only may men have communion with the gods, for the gods cannot help man without the help of man. " (More chauvinism)

#35 "And if any break these Laws, even under torture, THE CURSE OF THE GODDESS SHALL BE UPON THEM, so they may never be reborn on earth and may remain where they belong, in the hell of the Christians." (No hell in Wicca? Try again - they believe in the Christian hell, too)

#57 "And our oppressors know well "Ye may not be a witch alone". (Every person out there who claims to be a "solitary Wiccan" - bullshit)

So, for those of you that think Wicca is a lovey-dovey hippyesque religion, it might help to learn to draw the distinction between New Age pseudo-Wicca and what the texts of the religion actually state. There is far more than just the Wiccan rede, and when you really get into it, it isn't much better than Christianity.

I don't believe in Christianity, and as far as I can tell, most people adhering to this religion are merely reacting against the mainstream religion (I don't know how the two religions compare age-wise, but that doesn't matter).

This can't possibly be all of their scripture, or whatever they have.

Anyway, I don't think Wiccans are crazy, just stupid and rebellious.

Heheh and what about those Wiccans in their 50's or 60's?

All in all, I think I prefer discordianism. At least it hasn't the pretense it's not silly..

Hail Eris!

Heheh and what about those Wiccans in their 50's or 60's?

There are virtually no Wiccans in their 50s or 60s who have been involved with any type of Wicca (real or New Agesque) for a long period of time. A lot of these people adopted a claim of Wicca due to its hijack by the feminist movement (ironic, since it is so anti-female rights) at older ages.

In the same respect, it is often claimed that people were "born into" these Wiccan families which goes to push the myth further. Anyone familiar with Wicca, Wiccan texts, and Wiccan laws knows that children can't be "born into" the religion, or be "raised Wiccan." Rather, people can only become Wiccans when they are consenting adults and after a 1 year probationary period.

I don't think they're crazy. Just silly little girls who are looking for an excuse to prance around naked in the moonlight without having to become strippers.

My impression of Wicca is that it has as much theological validity as a game of D&D or an episode of Charmed or Buffy. But they are a peaceful lot and are thus due a lot more respect than certain other cults that shall remain un-I-dentified.


Heheh including the boys?

There are virtually no Wiccans in their 50s or 60s who have been involved with any type of Wicca (real or New Agesque) for a long period of time. A lot of these people adopted a claim of Wicca due to its hijack by the feminist movement (ironic, since it is so anti-female rights) at older ages.

In the same respect, it is often claimed that people were "born into" these Wiccan families which goes to push the myth further. Anyone familiar with Wicca, Wiccan texts, and Wiccan laws knows that children can't be "born into" the religion, or be "raised Wiccan." Rather, people can only become Wiccans when they are consenting adults and after a 1 year probationary period.


Ooookay so all of the aged Wiccans, Pagans, Druids and others that I know are all fakers then?

Ooookay so all of the aged Wiccans, Pagans, Druids and others that I know are all fakers then?

All "Druids" you know are fakers. We know next to nothing about the historical Druids, and what we do know about them is contrary to what modern-day Druids pracice (such as human and animal sacrifice).

In the same respect, virtually all Wiccans are fakers. Most can be warmly called neo-Wiccans at best, in that they stole a few of Gardner's ideas, wrapped it in other New Age belief, and then called it "Wicca." Very few know anything about the religion Gardner created, and according to that, they aren't Wiccans.

Pagans, of course, is a broad term that could refer to anything. I wouldn't say that most people who practice some form of pagan belief are fakers at all. I would say that those who claim to be things like Druids and Wiccans, or to worship in a "traditional" Egyptian fashion, Roman fashion, etc. are.

All "Druids" you know are fakers. We know next to nothing about the historical Druids, and what we do know about them is contrary to what modern-day Druids pracice (such as human and animal sacrifice).

In the same respect, virtually all Wiccans are fakers. Most can be warmly called neo-Wiccans at best, in that they stole a few of Gardner's ideas, wrapped it in other New Age belief, and then called it "Wicca." Very few know anything about the religion Gardner created, and according to that, they aren't Wiccans.

Pagans, of course, is a broad term that could refer to anything. I wouldn't say that most people who practice some form of pagan belief are fakers at all. I would say that those who claim to be things like Druids and Wiccans, or to worship in a "traditional" Egyptian fashion, Roman fashion, etc. are.

Yeah the old it isn't like the olden days so it is not valid, argument.
Isn't what counts the intent, not the method? If people want to worship God in a certian way and call it Wicca then let them, the same goes for Druids, and as you say if Gardner did make it up rather than revive it from older sources, then if he can make it up why can't modern day Wiccans do the same?

Yeah the old it isn't like the olden days so it is not valid, argument.

Saying "the old it isn't like the olden days" doesn't make it an invalid argument. The fact is, people who claim to be things like Druids do not practice what Druids did. They practice something entirelly different, and simply hijacked the name "Druid." In addition, they have no historical link to ancient Druids. This is unlike Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. where although what they practice is not like the olden days, they have a contigious line and tradition that simply reformed itself.

In addition, Wicca is less than 100 years old. People who have rejected virtually everything Wiccan in lieu of soft New Age jargon, then decided to call that "Wicca" can't be excused by things such as "the times have changed."

Isn't what counts the intent, not the method? If people want to worship God in a certian way and call it Wicca then let them, the same goes for Druids, and as you say if Gardner did make it up rather than revive it from older sources, then if he can make it up why can't modern day Wiccans do the same?

Well, I'm not going out there and protesting against fake Wiccans and Druids or trying to stop them. Sure, people can claim to be whatever they want. In the same respect, I'll go ahead and continue to point out that most people who claim to be Wiccans today have no direct link to the real Wiccan religion and do not practice anything that Wiccan tradition or texts actually teach. And that people who claim to be Druids might as well be claiming to be Klingons, because they have no more of a direct link to Druids than they do to ETs.

And, modern Wiccans can make up whatever they want, just like Gardner did. But that doesn't make it Wicca. If I decide to add a three-headed goat god to the Trinity, it doesn't become Catholicism. In the same respect, when Wiccans add foreign deities to the original deities that Gardner made a part of Wicca, it isn't really Wicca anymore.

It would be more honest if neo-Pagans stopped pretending like their religions had ancient links simply because they rip off old deities, rather than claiming that their new made-up religions are the religions of the ancient Druids, or the religion that Gardner created, Wicca. Let them make up whatever they want, but let them admit that it is new and different as well, instead of pretending it is the same as what they ripped off to create it.

SNIP

If it ain't conformist, there is no reason not to prosecute it out of existence.

If it ain't conformist, there is no reason not to prosecute it out of existence.

televised witch trials on the agenda then?

televised witch trials on the agenda then?

Naw.
Just keep the kids quiet.
Do you know what is the most common kind of Wiccan I encounter?
( The only kind IRL, actually. )
Working girls with an expensive drug-habbit.

Let them make up whatever they want, but let them admit that it is new and different as well, instead of pretending it is the same as what they ripped off to create it.There's the bind though.. Religion needs authenticity. People can't readily admit to believe in something they just made up (or know to have been made up). And claiming historic roots is the easiest claim to authenticity. The only other obvious way around it is to claim (divine) revelation.

Naw.
Just keep the kids quiet.
Do you know what is the most common kind of Wiccan I encounter?
( The only kind IRL, actually. )
Working girls with an expensive drug-habbit.

interesting insight into your personal life :p

Do you know what is the most common kind of Wiccan I encounter?
( The only kind IRL, actually. )
Working girls with an expensive drug-habbit.You meet a lot of working girls? :x

interesting insight into your personal life :p

*nods* Drug-counselling and similar activities do involve rubbing shoulders with people no one else bothers to give the slightest bit of attention to.
( Usually, you find that there are excellent reasons for ignoring them.
But then, you also find that excellent reasons are no excuse whatsoever....)

Saying "the old it isn't like the olden days" doesn't make it an invalid argument. The fact is, people who claim to be things like Druids do not practice what Druids did. They practice something entirelly different, and simply hijacked the name "Druid." In addition, they have no historical link to ancient Druids. This is unlike Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. where although what they practice is not like the olden days, they have a contigious line and tradition that simply reformed itself.

In addition, Wicca is less than 100 years old. People who have rejected virtually everything Wiccan in lieu of soft New Age jargon, then decided to call that "Wicca" can't be excused by things such as "the times have changed."



Well, I'm not going out there and protesting against fake Wiccans and Druids or trying to stop them. Sure, people can claim to be whatever they want. In the same respect, I'll go ahead and continue to point out that most people who claim to be Wiccans today have no direct link to the real Wiccan religion and do not practice anything that Wiccan tradition or texts actually teach. And that people who claim to be Druids might as well be claiming to be Klingons, because they have no more of a direct link to Druids than they do to ETs.

And, modern Wiccans can make up whatever they want, just like Gardner did. But that doesn't make it Wicca. If I decide to add a three-headed goat god to the Trinity, it doesn't become Catholicism. In the same respect, when Wiccans add foreign deities to the original deities that Gardner made a part of Wicca, it isn't really Wicca anymore.

It would be more honest if neo-Pagans stopped pretending like their religions had ancient links simply because they rip off old deities, rather than claiming that their new made-up religions are the religions of the ancient Druids, or the religion that Gardner created, Wicca. Let them make up whatever they want, but let them admit that it is new and different as well, instead of pretending it is the same as what they ripped off to create it.


In a large part I agree with all that you have said, but what you are arguing about is a label. In affect the language that we use to communicate. You may as well say that R&B (the music genre) should not be called R&B, seeing as it is nowt like original R&B, and yes you would have a point, but you would still be wrong.

So Druids are not like ancient Druids, and so Wiccans are not like Gardenrian Wiccan's(except I suppose those Gardeniarians) if enough people use the label then the meaning of the label changes, and although some of us may not like it, there is nowt we can do 'cept chalk it up to the evolution of our languge.

This is the only point I was trying to make. If somebody wants to call themselves Wiccan, then let them get on with it, if what they do, and how they worship, they want to call Wiccan then fine, thats Wiccan.

There's the bind though.. Religion needs authenticity. People can't readily admit to believe in something they just made up (or know to have been made up). And claiming historic roots is the easiest claim to authenticity. The only other obvious way around it is to claim (divine) revelation.

Yup, thats true. A lot of neo-Pagans invent historic roots to give their religions authenticity. If they yank a couple Druid deities, they can spin a whole new religion around them and then pretend that it has roots in ancient Druid religion. When Gardner created Wicca, he claimed it was passed on to him by a coven that operated for hundreds of years previously (which of course he later admitted he fabricated).

*nods* Drug-counselling and similar activities do involve rubbing shoulders with people no one else bothers to give the slightest bit of attention to.
( Usually, you find that there are excellent reasons for ignoring them.
But then, you also find that excellent reasons are no excuse whatsoever....)

I'd never imagine there would be a lot of wiccans among them.
The standard imagine of wiccan I have is highschool girls with pretentions to originality..

I'd never imagine there would be a lot of wiccans among them.
The standard imagine of wiccan I have is highschool girls with pretentions to originality..

Uh-huh. Any idea how often that leads to previously described lifestyle?

I'd never imagine there would be a lot of wiccans among them.
The standard imagine of wiccan I have is highschool girls with pretentions to originality..


Strange that coz most of em I know are male! Say you didn't get your stansard image from films and stuff did ya?

In a large part I agree with all that you have said, but what you are arguing about is a label. In affect the language that we use to communicate. You may as well say that R&B (the music genre) should not be called R&B, seeing as it is nowt like original R&B, and yes you would have a point, but you would still be wrong.

A closer analogy would be if someone recorded a death metal track and then tried to call it R&B. About all death metal and R&B have in common is that they use the same insturments. In the same respect, modern "Druids" and "Wiccans" don't have enough in common with the original religions to be called by the same name.

So Druids are not like ancient Druids, and so Wiccans are not like Gardenrian Wiccan's(except I suppose those Gardeniarians) if enough people use the label then the meaning of the label changes, and although some of us may not like it, there is nowt we can do 'cept chalk it up to the evolution of our languge.

Right, the meaning of the label would change. But it hasn't. I've studied paganism throughout school (religious studies degree) and not once have I seen Druids studied in the scope of New Age groups calling themselves Druids, or the become a Wiccan in three easy steps group studied in the scope of Wicca, the religion Gardner created. New Age groups have hijacked the terms, but the hijacking isn't recognized by anyone except themselves.

*nods* Drug-counselling and similar activities do involve rubbing shoulders with people no one else bothers to give the slightest bit of attention to.
( Usually, you find that there are excellent reasons for ignoring them.
But then, you also find that excellent reasons are no excuse whatsoever....)


me and my big mouth :headbang:

I'd never imagine there would be a lot of wiccans among them.
The standard imagine of wiccan I have is highschool girls with pretentions to originality..

Wicca was invented by a man. Its very anti-female rights. In Wiccan texts and laws it talks about how women need to be dominated by men, and how only men can truly attain communion with the gods, thus women need to attain it through men. Gardner created rituals with men flogging women, etc.

Of course, a lot of that has been rejected by the pseudo-Wiccans today. And Wicca in general has been hijacked by feminism. This is a result of a misunderstanding of the full teachings and a superficial view that it recognizes and gives equal weight to a female and male deity. If feminists knew what Wicca actually taught about women, they would probably have avoided hijacking it.

Wicca was invented by a man. Its very anti-female rights. In Wiccan texts and laws it talks about how women need to be dominated by men, and how only men can truly attain communion with the gods, thus women need to attain it through men. Gardner created rituals with men flogging women, etc.

Of course, a lot of that has been rejected by the pseudo-Wiccans today. And Wicca in general has been hijacked by feminism. This is a result of a misunderstanding of the full teachings and a superficial view that it recognizes and gives equal weight to a female and male deity. If feminists knew what Wicca actually taught about women, they would probably have avoided hijacking it.

*coff*

Strange that coz most of em I know are male! Say you didn't get your stansard image from films and stuff did ya?Webcomics mostly ;) (and other internet places)
In fact, as far as I know, I don't know any (claims-to-be-)Wiccans.

me and my big mouth :headbang:

*grin* Don't worry about it.

If I didn't have a very thick skin about such matters, I would not have opted for doing this.

Webcomics mostly ;) (and other internet places)
In fact, as far as I know, I don't know any (claims-to-be-)Wiccans.


Heheh in that case I can do nowt else but bow to your superior knowledge.:p

A closer analogy would be if someone recorded a death metal track and then tried to call it R&B. About all death metal and R&B have in common is that they use the same insturments. In the same respect, modern "Druids" and "Wiccans" don't have enough in common with the original religions to be called by the same name.



Right, the meaning of the label would change. But it hasn't. I've studied paganism throughout school (religious studies degree) and not once have I seen Druids studied in the scope of New Age groups calling themselves Druids, or the become a Wiccan in three easy steps group studied in the scope of Wicca, the religion Gardner created. New Age groups have hijacked the terms, but the hijacking isn't recognized by anyone except themselves.


Okay fine, I can see that you are one that indeed does not like the change of at least this particular label. Heheh and in my experiance this is a sign of old age creeping up. Hah and I know all about that feeling.

Wicca was invented by a man. Its very anti-female rights. <snip>Yes, I know. I should perhaps have said claims-to-be-wiccan, or pseudo-wiccan.
But you have to admit, that in our culture, we don't associate the term wiccan much with Gardner any more, but more with magic (or magick :p), Charmed, Buffy the vampire slayer, the Craft, etc. It may not be correct theonomologically, but then most of us aren't theologists.

*grin* Don't worry about it.

If I didn't have a very thick skin about such matters, I would not have opted for doing this.

*nodz*

*nodz*

Despite the SM tolerance in your Queendom, I sometimes get the feeling you get easily embarassed... ;)

Yes, I know. I should perhaps have said claims-to-be-wiccan, or pseudo-wiccan.
But you have to admit, that in our culture, we don't associate the term wiccan much with Gardner any more, but more with magic (or magick :p), Charmed, Buffy the vampire slayer, the Craft, etc. It may not be correct theonomologically, but then most of us aren't theologists.

Yes, thats absolutely true. When people hear "Wiccan" the first thing they do tend to think of is magic, Charmed, etc. And if we think of Wiccan as a religion in general the first thing that pops up is young girls running around with black dyed hair and wearing pentagram necklaces, rebelling against their church-going parents (and then going on Sunday so they don't get in trouble).

Unfortunantly, thats actually the fault of the New Age group, that ripped off and distorted Gardner and the Wiccan religion, bringing it into the mainstream and turning it into a counter culture.

Yes, thats absolutely true. When people hear "Wiccan" the first thing they do tend to think of is magic, Charmed, etc. And if we think of Wiccan as a religion in general the first thing that pops up is young girls running around with black dyed hair and wearing pentagram necklaces, rebelling against their church-going parents (and then going on Sunday so they don't get in trouble).

Unfortunantly, thats actually the fault of the New Age group, that ripped off and distorted Gardner and the Wiccan religion, bringing it into the mainstream and turning it into a counter culture.


Or the fault of films, shows, and the ever truthfull media specily come halloween time.

Despite the SM tolerance in your Queendom, I sometimes get the feeling you get easily embarassed... ;)

Try Me

Or the fault of films, shows, and the ever truthfull media specily come halloween time.

How much attention do you expect the media to give to some group that has, wot, all of .1% of the population?
It isn't as though they were the Mormons, or anything else that is whacky-yet-politically-relevant.

Try Me

*grin* I think I will...
:fluffle:

I dont think Wiccans are "crazy maniacs", so much as I think theyre all pretentious, attenion-whoring wankers.

*grin* I think I will...
:fluffle:
:fluffle:

How much attention do you expect the media to give to some group that has, wot, all of .1% of the population?A lot. The less people, the more attention it seems sometimes.
Besides which the whole mythos build around it makes for good stories. And it's not like the media are very good at making distinctions between wiccans, other neo-pagans, satanists, cults, fiction, music prefernce, etc. I'd be surprised if they haven't linked it to a school shooting somewhere..

I dont think Wiccans are "crazy maniacs", so much as I think theyre all pretentious, attenion-whoring wankers.


Heheh are you sure that you are not getting Wiccans mixed up with Satanists? Coz I've seem that happen you know!

A lot. The less people, the more attention it seems sometimes.
Besides which the whole mythos build around it makes for good stories. And it's not like the media are very good at making distinctions between wiccans, other neo-pagans, satanists, cults, fiction, music prefernce, etc. I'd be surprised if they haven't linked it to a school shooting somewhere..

Lets' rephrase that: how much 'fair and balanced' attention.

:fluffle:

:fluffle:

Anyway, I do use this place to blow off steam.
And I still think Wiccans are a pretty sad bunch.

A lot. The less people, the more attention it seems sometimes.
Besides which the whole mythos build around it makes for good stories. And it's not like the media are very good at making distinctions between wiccans, other neo-pagans, satanists, cults, fiction, music prefernce, etc. I'd be surprised if they haven't linked it to a school shooting somewhere..


Yeah I agree, just turn on the TV and see for yourself. Remeber that film The Craft, and that Charmed has been going for how many years?

If it's a little bit differant, a little not mundane them the media, and Tv are over it like a rash. Heh modern day entertianment sometimes reminds me of the Roman circus, all that blood and gore just for our amusement.

Heheh are you sure that you are not getting Wiccans mixed up with Satanists? Coz I've seem that happen you know!


Satanists are worse, sometimes.

They can be pretentious wankers too, but often "ooooh look how scary I am...Ooooh Im a satanist!"

and not have any idea of what real satanism is all about.

The Gothy ones can be like that.

Lets' rephrase that: how much 'fair and balanced' attention.I'm pessimistic, I don't really expect media to give fair and balanced attention to anything anymore. Best you can do is average out opposing views.
But objectively, you'd expect little if any mention. Perhaps in a tv-series on alternative lifestyles/religions or something. But there's hardly ever anything newworthy, or even human-interest-worthy.

I'm pessimistic, I don't really expect media to give fair and balanced attention to anything anymore. Best you can do is average out opposing views.
But objectively, you'd expect little if any mention. Perhaps in a tv-series on alternative lifestyles/religions or something. But there's hardly ever anything newworthy, or even human-interest-worthy.

*shrug*
OK. Let's just say that I consider a .1% group, ceteris paribus not even deserving of fair and balanced reporting.

I'm pessimistic, I don't really expect media to give fair and balanced attention to anything anymore. Best you can do is average out opposing views.....


I wouldn't regard that as being pessimistic, but bloody senseible!:eek:

Liasia']You should be so proud...

Sadly, as a fellow resident of Texas, I'm sure he is.

I wouldn't regard that as being pessimistic, but bloody senseible!:eek:That seems to assume pessimism isn't sensible :p
Pessimism makes a lot of sense. For one, things hardly ever turn out worse than you expect, so any surprise is likely a good one. ;)

That seems to assume pessimism isn't sensible :p
Pessimism makes a lot of sense. For one, things hardly ever turn out worse than you expect, so any surprise is likely a good one. ;)


I make you sorta right cept of course the parronia, and depression that comes with it!:D

*shrug*
OK. Let's just say that I consider a .1% group, ceteris paribus not even deserving of fair and balanced reporting.I'm not exactly sure how to take that. Do you mean more that it doesn't deserve reporting, or more that it doesn't have to be fair and balanced?
Because either way I don't think they should be unjustly villified.. Although I suppose persecution of minority groups isn't that much of an issue in the west (if you even want to call it a minority group, considering it's a phase for many).

I'm not exactly sure how to take that. Do you mean more that it doesn't deserve reporting, or more that it doesn't have to be fair and balanced?
Because either way I don't think they should be unjustly villified.. Although I suppose persecution of minority groups isn't that much of an issue in the west (if you even want to call it a minority group, considering it's a phase for many).

I think a zero point one percent group that is uppity should be treated as... comic relief.
*shrug* They're fair game, politically.

I think a zero point one percent group that is uppity should be treated as... comic relief.
*shrug* They're fair game, politically.

*swoon*... such depth

*swoon*... such depth

and if you were still in Teesside I'd try to find you
:fluffle:
*is flattered and blushes*

and if you were still in Teesside I'd try to find you
:fluffle:
*is flattered and blushes*

and I'M embarassed easily?

sheesh

:fluffle:

and ... oh?.. reeeaaallly

I could be a crone for all you know.. oh wait.. photobucket

I think a zero point one percent group that is uppity should be treated as... comic relief.Any group that is uppity should be made fun of and treated as comic relief. Especially large ones :p

*shrug* They're fair game, politically.Politically, I'd say if they don't harm anyone, they should be left at peace. Freedom of religion/expression and stuff.. Making them out to be a menace to society when they're not, just so you can tackle a problem that isn't there, well.. I'm not for it..

Any group that is uppity should be made fun of and treated as comic relief. Especially large ones :p

Politically, I'd say if they don't harm anyone, they should be left at peace. Freedom of religion/expression and stuff.. Making them out to be a menace to society when they're not, just so you can tackle a problem that isn't there, well.. I'm not for it..

*shrug* My temper can be foul, and I despise moonbaying.
I don't think I'd have to accept disturbance of the Wa.

I don't mind Wiccans or whatever having different opinions.
I highly mind their inability to keep those opinions in the closet.

*shrug* My temper can be foul, and I despise moonbaying.
I don't think I'd have to accept disturbance of the Wa.

I don't mind Wiccans or whatever having different opinions.
I highly mind their inability to keep those opinions in the closet.


Heheh shit, so what everybody should keep their opinions to themselves? Then this place would just be dead huh!

As a friend of mine says, opinions are like arseoles, everybody has one, and mine is larger and makes more of a stink than yours.

Heheh shit, so what everybody should keep their opinions to themselves? Then this place would just be dead huh!

As a friend of mine says, opinions are like arseoles, everybody has one, and mine is larger and makes more of a stink than yours.

... in his opinion :p

I don't mind Wiccans or whatever having different opinions.
I highly mind their inability to keep those opinions in the closet.

That brings up an interesting point. In Wicca, people are supposed to keep their practice a secret. They shouldn't be telling anyone outside of their coven that they are a Wiccan, they shouldn't be wearing any revealing implements, and they shouldn't even tell other Wiccans that they are Wiccan. Yet, Wicca has become so cool and trendy, such a big fad, that Wiccans are as vocal about it as Christians.

That brings up an interesting point. In Wicca, people are supposed to keep their practice a secret. They shouldn't be telling anyone outside of their coven that they are a Wiccan, they shouldn't be wearing any revealing implements, and they shouldn't even tell other Wiccans that they are Wiccan. Yet, Wicca has become so cool and trendy, such a big fad, that Wiccans are as vocal about it as Christians.

which brings us to my original post

TRUE wiccan followers do NOT advertise and are true to the creed

people who advertise think it's cool - a fashion statement .. blahdeblahdeblah

Said ma bit.. back to fluffing Boggie

:fluffle:

and I'M embarassed easily?

sheesh

:fluffle:

and ... oh?.. reeeaaallly

I could be a crone for all you know.. oh wait.. photobucket

Yup.

you could have faked the photos - but....


:fluffle:

Yup.

you could have faked the photos - but....


:fluffle:

i could have

.. and you barely know anything about moi

u're obviously a fantabulous judge of character:p

That brings up an interesting point. In Wicca, people are supposed to keep their practice a secret. They shouldn't be telling anyone outside of their coven that they are a Wiccan, they shouldn't be wearing any revealing implements, and they shouldn't even tell other Wiccans that they are Wiccan. Yet, Wicca has become so cool and trendy, such a big fad, that Wiccans are as vocal about it as Christians.


See my earlier post:

RE: WANKERS.

... in his opinion :p


Heh naaa, he is not a thin bloke! His arse is definatly bigger than mine!

The rednecks barely tolerated the Baptists. They wouldn't tolerate a wiccan whatever in their city. A:D

???
Baptists tend to be the biggest church in the south, so your statement makes little sense. The rednecks ARE the baptists, AOG, pentacostals, etc.

First of all, let me make two things clear.

1. I am not a Wiccan. (I am a Hindu)

2. I just read the Wiccan Rede, and a lot of this stuff makes sense. Let's see how much of this is compatible with your own beliefs.

And now....the full text of the Wiccan Rede

Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust. Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give.

For tread the Circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out. To bind the spell well every time, let the spell be said in rhyme.

Light of eye and soft of touch, speak you little, listen much. Honor the Old Ones in deed and name, let love and light be our guides again.

Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out the joyful tune. Widdershins go when the moon doth wane, and the werewolf howls by the dread wolfsbane.

When the Lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to Her times two. When the moon rides at Her peak then your heart's desire seek.

Heed the North winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail. When the Wind blows from the East, expect the new and set the feast.

When the wind comes from the South, love will kiss you on the mouth. When the wind whispers from the West, all hearts will find peace and rest.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow. Birch in the fire goes to represent what the Lady knows.

Oak in the forest towers with might, in the fire it brings the God's insight. Rowan is a tree of power causing life and magick to flower.

Willows at the waterside stand ready to help us to the Summerland. Hawthorn is burned to purify and to draw faerie to your eye.

Hazel-the tree of wisdom and learning adds its strength to the bright fire burning. White are the flowers of Apple tree that brings us fruits of fertility.

Grapes grow upon the vine giving us both joy and wine. Fir does mark the evergreen to represent immortality seen.

Elder is the Lady's tree burn it not or cursed you'll be. Four times the Major Sabbats mark in the light and in the dark.

As the old year starts to wane the new begins, it's now Samhain. When the time for Imbolc shows watch for flowers through the snows.

When the wheel begins to turn soon the Beltane fires will burn. As the wheel turns to Lamas night power is brought to magick rite.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall use the Sun to mark them all. When the wheel has turned to Yule light the log the Horned One rules.

In the spring, when night equals day time for Ostara to come our way. When the Sun has reached it's height time for Oak and Holly to fight.

Harvesting comes to one and all when the Autumn Equinox does fall. Heed the flower, bush, and tree by the Lady blessed you'll be.

Where the rippling waters go cast a stone, the truth you'll know. When you have and hold a need, harken not to others' greed.

With a fool no season spend or be counted as his friend. Merry Meet and Merry Part bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good. When misfortune is enow wear the star upon your brow.

Be true in love this you must do unless your love is false to you.

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:

"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

sounds like a lot of superstition to me, having to rhyme all your spells, someone will kiss you when the wind blows a certain way.......

Yup, thats true. A lot of neo-Pagans invent historic roots to give their religions authenticity. If they yank a couple Druid deities, they can spin a whole new religion around them and then pretend that it has roots in ancient Druid religion. When Gardner created Wicca, he claimed it was passed on to him by a coven that operated for hundreds of years previously (which of course he later admitted he fabricated).

There's inventing historic roots (like Gardner did, in part) and there's picking up traditional beliefs - handed down as "old wives tales" or superstition - and reconstructing a set of beliefs and practices loosely based on what is historically believed to have been practiced in pre-Christian Europe.

Modern day pagans (speaking as one) are practicing a faith most know to be new as it is now, but based on these old traditions. It's a bit like making a film of a book. Just because The Lord of the Rings didn't contain every detail of the book doesn't make Peter Jackson a hijacker for calling his films The Lord of the Rings.

When I was a teenager I used to call myself wiccan in large part to avoid the ignorance of my schoolmates as far as the term pagan is concerned, many thought that Paganism was Satanism. I'm no longer afraid to use the term [pagan] thanks to shows like Buffy and Charmed that have gone a large way towards showing the public an image of wicca (consequently much of paganism) that challenges the ignorance of many people. I know I'm not a wiccan and I'm more confident in making that clarification.

Which brings me to my final point, many teenagers are attracted to various forms of paganism because they find Christianity unsatisfactory and are beginning a process of figuring out their own beliefs. Many are attracted to it because of the rebelliousness of it and the pop culture (Buffy/Charmed.) But they are just teenagers and are entitled to look into whatever religion they like, for whatever reason.

Some of them will look into it, discover what it's all about and embrace it completely. I was 14 when I first read a book on the subject (Hedge Witch by Rae Beth) and 10 years later I'm still here, my beliefs growing with increased knowledge and maturing with me.

There's inventing historic roots (like Gardner did, in part) and there's picking up traditional beliefs - handed down as "old wives tales" or superstition - and reconstructing a set of beliefs and practices loosely based on what is historically believed to have been practiced in pre-Christian Europe.

Modern day pagans (speaking as one) are practicing a faith most know to be new as it is now, but based on these old traditions. It's a bit like making a film of a book. Just because The Lord of the Rings didn't contain every detail of the book doesn't make Peter Jackson a hijacker for calling his films The Lord of the Rings.

Right, I agree in part. What I would dispute is if most pagans today practice a faith that is based on old traditions. For a tradition to exist, it has to actually be passed down. With the exception of Strega, African religions, etc. I don't believe modern day paganism has been passed down, or could rightly be called a tradition. What the Druids did is totally lost to us, and there is no passed down Druid tradition. The same with Egyptian religion, and a lot of others that modern day pagans tend to capitalize on.

It isn't the fact that they aren't identical that bothers me. Its the fact that these modern day pagan versions have no link whatsoever to the previous traditions that they claim to be a part of.

Right, I agree in part. What I would dispute is if most pagans today practice a faith that is based on old traditions. For a tradition to exist, it has to actually be passed down. With the exception of Strega, African religions, etc. I don't believe modern day paganism has been passed down, or could rightly be called a tradition. What the Druids did is totally lost to us, and there is no passed down Druid tradition. The same with Egyptian religion, and a lot of others that modern day pagans tend to capitalize on.

It isn't the fact that they aren't identical that bothers me. Its the fact that these modern day pagan versions have no link whatsoever to the previous traditions that they claim to be a part of.
You misunderstood me, I said "set of beliefs and practices", meaning linking together different things that fit together today to form a cohesive modern religion.

You can't deny that various myths, traditions and beliefs have been passed down. Maybe not in the USA since the country is pretty young and the locals have been virtually erradicated. But in Europe we have a healthy knowledge of various pantheons of deities and a whole string of celebratory practices (xmas trees, pumpkins, may poles) that indicate previous religious significance.

No, a complete package has not been passed down, the Catholics did a fairly good job of seeing to that. But as I said in my OP, modern day pagans have compiled old traditions into one new set of practices. There is a link to the past. Clearer?

You can't deny that various myths, traditions and beliefs have been passed down. Maybe not in the USA since the country is pretty young and the locals have been virtually erradicated. But in Europe we have a healthy knowledge of various pantheons of deities and a whole string of celebratory practices (xmas trees, pumpkins, may poles) that indicate previous religious significance.

No, a complete package has not been passed down, the Catholics did a fairly good job of seeing to that. But as I said in my OP, modern day pagans have compiled old traditions into one new set of practices. There is a link to the past. Ok?

Well, some traditions and things definately have been passed down. Strega is one I mentioned in Europe (Italy) that is pretty old and in tact, even from Roman times. Others like Druid and Egyptian traditions I would say are totally lost, and no one alive today has claim to a tradition of such that has been passed down. On top of that, we really don't know much about what Druids and such did (they're my example, I'm picking on Druids here), so modern day pagans can't even attempt an honest resurrection of Druid traditions.

Well, some traditions and things definately have been passed down. Strega is one I mentioned in Europe (Italy) that is pretty old and in tact, even from Roman times. Others like Druid and Egyptian traditions I would say are totally lost, and no one alive today has claim to a tradition of such that has been passed down. On top of that, we really don't know much about what Druids and such did (they're my example, I'm picking on Druids here), so modern day pagans can't even attempt an honest resurrection of Druid traditions.
I agree with you in the Druid case. However, we are talking about all pagans, including wiccans, not just Druids. Your implication was that all pagans are completely detached from the historical context, your example being Druids. I was simply pointing out that your implication was incorrect.