NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/29/D8II9BV81.html
Looking for a way out - either by talking or running.

In remarks published Friday, Mubarak told the pro-government Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram that "Egyptian contacts with several Hamas leaders resulted in preliminary, positive results in the shape of a conditional agreement to hand over the Israeli soldier as soon as possible to avoid an escalation. But agreement on this has not yet been reached with the Israeli side."

Gideon Meir, a senior Israeli Foreign Ministry official, said Israel did not know of such an offer and would have no comment until later Friday.

Looks like Egypt isn't giving the Palestinians any help at all...
On Gaza's southern border, hundreds of Palestinian and Egyptian police formed human cordons to block Palestinians trying to escape into Egypt after militants blasted a hole in a cement wall near the crossing.

Looks like the Palestinians don't have anyone that's going to help them.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/29/D8II9BV81.html
Looking for a way out - either by talking or running.


Looks like Egypt isn't giving the Palestinians any help at all...


Looks like the Palestinians don't have anyone that's going to help them.


Yes, and isn't that good to see the American tax dollar at work.

Yes, and isn't that good to see the American tax dollar at work.
Wonder if the Palestinians will wake up to the fact that they have no real allies, no hope of victory through violence, and no hope of defeating the Israelis and taking Jerusalem back.

Or that if they continue to fight, they will be more severely impoverished than the Israelis ever will be.

Wonder if the Palestinians will wake up to the fact that they have no real allies, no hope of victory through violence, and no hope of defeating the Israelis and taking Jerusalem back.

Or that if they continue to fight, they will be more severely impoverished than the Israelis ever will be.

There is nothing to be gained by peace for them. Every cessation has increased settlement building, and no sign of meaningfull withdrawal. Therefore they have the choice of fighting, and at least having tried, or lying down and taking it - "it" being whatever Israel wants and America will let pass. Though not religous were I them I too would fight, to set an example if nothing else, in the vague hope that if not in this generation, then perhaps in the next they might at least achieve self-determination.

There is nothing to be gained by peace for them. Every cessation has increased settlement building, and no sign of meaningfull withdrawal. Therefore they have the choice of fighting, and at least having tried, or lying down and taking it - "it" being whatever Israel wants and America will let pass. Though not religous were I them I too would fight, to set an example if nothing else, in the vague hope that if not in this generation, then perhaps in the next they might at least achieve self-determination.

It's been several generations now, and if it isn't the Israelis screwing them, they seem to be quite skilled at screwing themselves silly.

Yes, and isn't that good to see the American tax dollar at work.
:confused:

It's been several generations now, and if it isn't the Israelis screwing them, they seem to be quite skilled at screwing themselves silly.

And thats been said about the Greeks, Indians, as well as every single country that was ever colonised in Africa.
Even if its entirely true, they still have the right to screw themselves, by themselves, for themselves. As do their reluctant neigbours. Sauce for the goose, and all that.

And thats been said about the Greeks, Indians, as well as every single country that was ever colonised in Africa.
Even if its entirely true, they still have the right to screw themselves, by themselves, for themselves. As do their reluctant neigbours. Sauce for the goose, and all that.

Not saying they don't have the right. They seem to be screwing themselves to the point where they can't help but lose.

:confused:

America give the Egyptians a few Billion a year in "Aid". BY SHEER COINCIDENCE their relations have improved remarkably with Israel since this started. You'll also notice that Hamas and co exile themselves to Syria, not Egypt.

Not saying they don't have the right. They seem to be screwing themselves to the point where they can't help but lose.

Due to the US, they can't "help but lose" and its that simple -at least in the immediate future. 50-100 years down the line might be a different ball game.

Due to the US, they can't "help but lose" and its that simple -at least in the immediate future. 50-100 years down the line might be a different ball game.
And how much better would the current Palestinian economy be if Arafat and Fatah had spent the billions in aid on the Palestinians instead of on themselves?

Did the US force Arafat to buy a billion dollar estate in Italy?

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/29/D8II9BV81.html
Looking for a way out - either by talking or running.


Looks like Egypt isn't giving the Palestinians any help at all...


Looks like the Palestinians don't have anyone that's going to help them.
They don't have many friends among the Arabs. Didn't Jordan kick Arafat out when he kept committing terrorist acts. Didn't he embarrass Egypt by blowing up an airliner on the ground at Cairo? I don't think the Palestinians have ever been able to band the Arabs together, even with their common hatred of Israelis.

They don't have many friends among the Arabs. Didn't Jordan kick Arafat out when he kept committing terrorist acts. Didn't he embarrass Egypt by blowing up an airliner on the ground at Cairo? I don't think the Palestinians have ever been able to band the Arabs together, even with their common hatred of Israelis.

I'm wondering how they can spin that being thrown out of Jordan during Black September is the fault of the US. Or blowing up an airliner on the ground in Egypt is the fault of the US.

And how much better would the current Palestinian economy be if Arafat and Fatah had spent the billions in aid on the Palestinians instead of on themselves?

Did the US force Arafat to buy a billion dollar estate in Italy?

They would be much better off, whether they had spent it on the economy or on weapons. What has that to do with the statement of mine you were quoting, might I ask?

I'm wondering how they can spin that being thrown out of Jordan during Black September is the fault of the US. Or blowing up an airliner on the ground in Egypt is the fault of the US.
Tell the same lie enough times and pretty soon it's accepted as fact. Simple enough.

They would be much better off, whether they had spent it on the economy or on weapons. What has that to do with the statement of mine you were quoting, might I ask?
You said that this is generally the fault of the US, and that they had the right to screw themselves.

Sure, they have the right, but when they do themselves so hard, I find it difficult to blame the US or even Israel for their plight being so bad.

America give the Egyptians a few Billion a year in "Aid". BY SHEER COINCIDENCE their relations have improved remarkably with Israel since this started. You'll also notice that Hamas and co exile themselves to Syria, not Egypt.
I thought they started getting aid from the US and better relations when Anwar Sadat came to the US and signed the peace traety with Isreal. :confused:

You said that this is generally the fault of the US, and that they had the right to screw themselves.

Sure, they have the right, but when they do themselves so hard, I find it difficult to blame the US or even Israel for their plight being so bad.


What I said was that due to the US they cannot win.

Militarily they cannot hope to defeat and drive out Israel in the immediate future. Diplomatically they are blocked from gains via peace by the US veto of sanctions against Israel. Thus if they choose peace, Israel wins. They choose violence - Israel wins.

Are we clear now?

What I said was that due to the US they cannot win.

Militarily they cannot hope to defeat and drive out Israel in the immediate future. Diplomatically they are blocked from gains via peace by the US veto of sanctions against Israel. Thus if they choose peace, Israel wins. They choose violence - Israel wins.

Are we clear now?

If they plan on playing a waiting game then, perhaps they should opt for a surrender, and wait for the US to go away.

I thought they started getting aid from the US and better relations when Anwar Sadat came to the US and signed the peace traety with Isreal. :confused:

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.
What does that mean? :confused:

If they plan on playing a waiting game then, perhaps they should opt for a surrender, and wait for the US to go away.

Whether you can ask an entire people to simultaneously allow themselves be shafted by an occupying force is rather debatable. There could be spontaneous outbreaks of backbone for years.

And its more than possible that in time the US will change its priorities (purely for its own purposes of course). Hence the desire on the part of Sharon and now his successor to finalise borders ASAP.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.
The US aid came after the Camp David Accords.

Muhammad Anwar al-Sadat, President of the Arab Republic of Egypt, and Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel, met with Jimmy Carter, President of the United States of America, at Camp David from September 5 to September 17, 1978, and have agreed on the following framework for peace in the Middle East. They invite other parties to the Arab-Israel conflict to adhere to it.

Preamble

The search for peace in the Middle East must be guided by the following:

The agreed basis for a peaceful settlement of the conflict between Israel and its neighbors is United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, in all its parts.
After four wars during 30 years, despite intensive human efforts, the Middle East, which is the cradle of civilization and the birthplace of three great religions, does not enjoy the blessings of peace. The people of the Middle East yearn for peace so that the vast human and natural resources of the region can be turned to the pursuits of peace and so that this area can become a model for coexistence and cooperation among nations.
The historic initiative of President Sadat in visiting Jerusalem and the reception accorded to him by the parliament, government and people of Israel, and the reciprocal visit of Prime Minister Begin to Ismailia, the peace proposals made by both leaders, as well as the warm reception of these missions by the peoples of both countries, have created an unprecedented opportunity for peace which must not be lost if this generation and future generations are to be spared the tragedies of war.
The provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and the other accepted norms of international law and legitimacy now provide accepted standards for the conduct of relations among all states.
To achieve a relationship of peace, in the spirit of Article 2 of the United Nations Charter, future negotiations between Israel and any neighbor prepared to negotiate peace and security with it are necessary for the purpose of carrying out all the provisions and principles of Resolutions 242 and 338.
Peace requires respect for the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force. Progress toward that goal can accelerate movement toward a new era of reconciliation in the Middle East marked by cooperation in promoting economic development, in maintaining stability and in assuring security.
Security is enhanced by a relationship of peace and by cooperation between nations which enjoy normal relations. In addition, under the terms of peace treaties, the parties can, on the basis of reciprocity, agree to special security arrangements such as demilitarized zones, limited armaments areas, early warning stations, the presence of international forces, liaison, agreed measures for monitoring and other arrangements that they agree are useful.
Framework

Taking these factors into account, the parties are determined to reach a just, comprehensive, and durable settlement of the Middle East conflict through the conclusion of peace treaties based on Security Council resolutions 242 and 338 in all their parts. Their purpose is to achieve peace and good neighborly relations. They recognize that for peace to endure, it must involve all those who have been most deeply affected by the conflict. They therefore agree that this framework, as appropriate, is intended by them to constitute a basis for peace not only between Egypt and Israel, but also between Israel and each of its other neighbors which is prepared to negotiate peace with Israel on this basis. With that objective in mind, they have agreed to proceed as follows:

West Bank and Gaza
Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the Palestinian people should participate in negotiations on the resolution of the Palestinian problem in all its aspects. To achieve that objective, negotiations relating to the West Bank and Gaza should proceed in three stages:


Egypt and Israel agree that, in order to ensure a peaceful and orderly transfer of authority, and taking into account the security concerns of all the parties, there should be transitional arrangements for the West Bank and Gaza for a period not exceeding five years. In order to provide full autonomy to the inhabitants, under these arrangements the Israeli military government and its civilian administration will be withdrawn as soon as a self-governing authority has been freely elected by the inhabitants of these areas to replace the existing military government. To negotiate the details of a transitional arrangement, Jordan will be invited to join the negotiations on the basis of this framework. These new arrangements should give due consideration both to the principle of self-government by the inhabitants of these territories and to the legitimate security concerns of the parties involved.


Egypt, Israel, and Jordan will agree on the modalities for establishing elected self-governing authority in the West Bank and Gaza. The delegations of Egypt and Jordan may include Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza or other Palestinians as mutually agreed. The parties will negotiate an agreement which will define the powers and responsibilities of the self-governing authority to be exercised in the West Bank and Gaza. A withdrawal of Israeli armed forces will take place and there will be a redeployment of the remaining Israeli forces into specified security locations. The agreement will also include arrangements for assuring internal and external security and public order. A strong local police force will be established, which may include Jordanian citizens. In addition, Israeli and Jordanian forces will participate in joint patrols and in the manning of control posts to assure the security of the borders.


When the self-governing authority (administrative council) in the West Bank and Gaza is established and inaugurated, the transitional period of five years will begin. As soon as possible, but not later than the third year after the beginning of the transitional period, negotiations will take place to determine the final status of the West Bank and Gaza and its relationship with its neighbors and to conclude a peace treaty between Israel and Jordan by the end of the transitional period. These negotiations will be conducted among Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the elected representatives of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza. Two separate but related committees will be convened, one committee, consisting of representatives of the four parties which will negotiate and agree on the final status of the West Bank and Gaza, and its relationship with its neighbors, and the second committee, consisting of representatives of Israel and representatives of Jordan to be joined by the elected representatives of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza, to negotiate the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, taking into account the agreement reached in the final status of the West Bank and Gaza. The negotiations shall be based on all the provisions and principles of UN Security Council Resolution 242. The negotiations will resolve, among other matters, the location of the boundaries and the nature of the security arrangements. The solution from the negotiations must also recognize the legitimate right of the Palestinian peoples and their just requirements. In this way, the Palestinians will participate in the determination of their own future through:


The negotiations among Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza to agree on the final status of the West Bank and Gaza and other outstanding issues by the end of the transitional period.
Submitting their agreements to a vote by the elected representatives of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza.
Providing for the elected representatives of the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza to decide how they shall govern themselves consistent with the provisions of their agreement.
Participating as stated above in the work of the committee negotiating the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan.
All necessary measures will be taken and provisions made to assure the security of Israel and its neighbors during the transitional period and beyond. To assist in providing such security, a strong local police force will be constituted by the self-governing authority. It will be composed of inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza. The police will maintain liaison on internal security matters with the designated Israeli, Jordanian, and Egyptian officers.
During the transitional period, representatives of Egypt, Israel, Jordan, and the self-governing authority will constitute a continuing committee to decide by agreement on the modalities of admission of persons displaced from the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, together with necessary measures to prevent disruption and disorder. Other matters of common concern may also be dealt with by this committee.
Egypt and Israel will work with each other and with other interested parties to establish agreed procedures for a prompt, just and permanent implementation of the resolution of the refugee problem.


Egypt-Israel
Egypt-Israel undertake not to resort to the threat or the use of force to settle disputes. Any disputes shall be settled by peaceful means in accordance with the provisions of Article 33 of the U.N. Charter.


In order to achieve peace between them, the parties agree to negotiate in good faith with a goal of concluding within three months from the signing of the Framework a peace treaty between them while inviting the other parties to the conflict to proceed simultaneously to negotiate and conclude similar peace treaties with a view the achieving a comprehensive peace in the area. The Framework for the Conclusion of a Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel will govern the peace negotiations between them. The parties will agree on the modalities and the timetable for the implementation of their obligations under the treaty.


Associated Principles
Egypt and Israel state that the principles and provisions described below should apply to peace treaties between Israel and each of its neighbors - Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.


Signatories shall establish among themselves relationships normal to states at peace with one another. To this end, they should undertake to abide by all the provisions of the U.N. Charter. Steps to be taken in this respect include:


full recognition;
abolishing economic boycotts;
guaranteeing that under their jurisdiction the citizens of the other parties shall enjoy the protection of the due process of law.


Signatories should explore possibilities for economic development in the context of final peace treaties, with the objective of contributing to the atmosphere of peace, cooperation and friendship which is their common goal.


Claims commissions may be established for the mutual settlement of all financial claims.


The United States shall be invited to participated in the talks on matters related to the modalities of the implementation of the agreements and working out the timetable for the carrying out of the obligations of the parties.


The United Nations Security Council shall be requested to endorse the peace treaties and ensure that their provisions shall not be violated. The permanent members of the Security Council shall be requested to underwrite the peace treaties and ensure respect or the provisions. They shall be requested to conform their policies an actions with the undertaking contained in this Framework.
For the Government of the
Arab Republic of Egypt:

Muhammed Anwar al-Sadat For the Government
of Israel:

Menachem Begin

Witnessed by:

Jimmy Carter,
President of the United States of America
Aid started flowing in 1979.

The US aid came after the Camp David Accords.

Aid started flowing in 1979.


And since then things have been, apart from the odd anti-semtic tv series, fairly good between the two. Now, some would say that its the ancient links between the lands of Israel and Egypt, and both peoples desire to live in harmony that are a major force behind this steady ship, in what are normally treacherous waters. Being a cynical bastard I say its the cash element of the deal that acts as ballast.