NationStates Jolt Archive

Then they burned the body of the woman they raped. One soldier already admitted his role in this.

:( link:( (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_soldiers_investigated)

a U.S. official close to the investigation said at least one of the soldiers, all assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment, has admitted his role and been arrested. Two soldiers from the same regiment were slain this month when they were kidnapped at a checkpoint near Youssifiyah.

The official told the AP the accused soldiers were from the same platoon as the two slain soldiers. The military has said one and possibly both of the slain soldiers were tortured and beheaded.

The official said the mutilation of the slain soldiers stirred feelings of guilt and led at least one of them to reveal the rape-slaying on June 22.

...

The killings appeared to have been a "crime of opportunity," the official said. The soldiers had not been attacked by insurgents but had noticed the woman on previous patrols.



I know that it is only a small percentage of soldiers that do this, but they make everyone look bad and don't help win the hearts and minds of anyone (except maybe other rapist/murderers I spoze).

Lets prosecute these assholes to the full extent of the law.

No argument from me.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree

No argument from me.

Why did you begin it in the first place then?

Why did you begin it in the first place then?

What?

maybe we should give our soldiers some hooker money and take them to town every once in a while.

maybe we should give our soldiers some hooker money and take them to town every once in a while.

Or just embed a whore with each unit.

Or just embed a whore with each unit.

The French Foreign Legion ussed to embed a bordello with each unit.

Or just embed a whore with each unit.


that's the kind of forward thinking we need in todays military!

Or just embed a whore with each unit.

We had a General back in the American Civil War who did that. :P

What?
wrong quote i was adressin the original poster of this thread,
Why are they there in the first place
Surely not to abuse peoples

maybe we should give our soldiers some hooker money and take them to town every once in a while.
Rape is usually not a crime of sexual urges, but a crime of control.

Adding hookers wouldn't prevent rape.

I think there is going to be a lot of stuff coming out over the coming months, mostly crimes from the past three years. Returning soldiers, journalists, other observers, have so far been quite flippant when commenting on stuff like civilians being killed on suspicion, for example a guy seemingly waiting to cross the road, just in case, spare AKs being carried around and dumped to make it look legit.

It won't always be extreme stuff like this case, clear-cut murders and the like, I think an awareness will gradually dawn that a whole lot of well-documented events that might otherwise have been excused, now warrant criminal investigations simply because the paperwork was originally corrupted.

The French Foreign Legion ussed to embed a bordello with each unit.


You mean the Freedom Foreign Legion

thats a good idea though... they should do the same for the gays in the military - or do they have each other for that?

I think there is going to be a lot of stuff coming out over the coming months, mostly crimes from the past three years. Returning soldiers, journalists, other observers, have so far been quite flippant when commenting on stuff like civilians being killed on suspicion, for example a guy seemingly waiting to cross the road, just in case, spare AKs being carried around and dumped to make it look legit.

It won't always be extreme stuff like this case, clear-cut murders and the like, I think an awareness will gradually dawn that a whole lot of well-documented events that might otherwise have been excused, now warrant criminal investigations simply because the paperwork was originally corrupted.


I haven't met many veteran US police who don't carry a throw down.

The French Foreign Legion ussed to embed a bordello with each unit.
From what I hear, they still do, sort of. Not embed, but entertainment periodically provided.

I haven't met many veteran US police who don't carry a throw down.
Then you can imagine how when the stories get too loud for the commanding officers to ignore, action ends up being taken.

You mean the Freedom Foreign Legion

thats a good idea though... they should do the same for the gays in the military - or do they have each other for that?

Joy division and auschwitz

This is is a severe crive, and those people being soldiers is no excuse for them to do it, so lets kick these arseholes into jail for the rest of their miserable lives.

Rape is usually not a crime of sexual urges, but a crime of control.

Adding hookers wouldn't prevent rape.


true - but maybe if they get their rocks off more often they might have less incentive or something. I dunno - this is truely sad.

why is it that so many rapists happened to be in the same unit that they can openly comspire to commit such acts? or are more people prone to rape than we think? I have heard that there have been a lot of instances of rape at military academies here in the States. Perhaps it is a condition of being controlled so much as a grunt that they use rape as a way to assert their control like you said, meaning that the military culture sort of promotes these actions in a way.

wrong quote i was adressin the original poster of this thread,
Why are they there in the first place
Surely not to abuse peoples

I have my suspicions as to why we are there, but I never approved of this war personally. Wars shouldnt happen unless I sign off on them. :p

I agree in the punishments, because of the brutality showed by the U.S. military towards innocent civilians. I do believe, that all thoose "one time incidents" (Pentagon statements) tell a bit about the somehow bad standard in some U.S. military units. Of couse not all of them, many troopers do a good job in Iraq and rest of the world, but i think you can't excuse all thoose raping and massacre incidents.

Unfortunate circumstances.

We had a General back in the American Civil War who did that. :P

Namely General Hooker ;)

I think there is going to be a lot of stuff coming out over the coming months, mostly crimes from the past three years. Returning soldiers, journalists, other observers, have so far been quite flippant when commenting on stuff like civilians being killed on suspicion, for example a guy seemingly waiting to cross the road, just in case, spare AKs being carried around and dumped to make it look legit.

It won't always be extreme stuff like this case, clear-cut murders and the like, I think an awareness will gradually dawn that a whole lot of well-documented events that might otherwise have been excused, now warrant criminal investigations simply because the paperwork was originally corrupted.


And when soldiers start spilling the beans about these aweful crimes, one can only hope that the majority of military men wont shun the whistle blowers like they did to the ones that exposed the attrocities in Vietnam. I somehow doubt it though.

true - but maybe if they get their rocks off more often they might have less incentive or something. I dunno - this is truely sad.

why is it that so many rapists happened to be in the same unit that they can openly comspire to commit such acts? or are more people prone to rape than we think? I have heard that there have been a lot of instances of rape at military academies here in the States. Perhaps it is a condition of being controlled so much as a grunt that they use rape as a way to assert their control like you said, meaning that the military culture sort of promotes these actions in a way.


Some insight - the composition of the US military is a slice of America's young people. From what I understand, they commit crimes in the same degree as others of their age.

So in a population of several hundred thousand young people, how many will commit rape in the US - assuming they are not in the military? Quite a few, and a few will be egregious enough to make the news.

It's not military culture that "promotes" this sort of thing. If anything, I remember constant lectures on how not to be as criminal as the common civilian.

Not that lectures work on potential criminals.

Joy division and auschwitz


sorry I'm slow - what do you mean?

true - but maybe if they get their rocks off more often they might have less incentive or something. I dunno - this is truely sad.

why is it that so many rapists happened to be in the same unit that they can openly comspire to commit such acts? or are more people prone to rape than we think? I have heard that there have been a lot of instances of rape at military academies here in the States. Perhaps it is a condition of being controlled so much as a grunt that they use rape as a way to assert their control like you said, meaning that the military culture sort of promotes these actions in a way.

I'am afraid that the general population is more prone than these soldiers.
I think that this stems from the gang mentality.

Having been a grunt, I believe that Sum also has fantastic misconceptions about the life and training of an infantryman.

These men are in the 1/502nd - I was in the 2/502nd as an infantryman.

There isn't any "tight control" of your life as you presume, nor any training in being a fanatical mindless killer, nor any encouragement to brutalize people randomly, etc.

sorry I'm slow - what do you mean?

Joy division - group of female prisoners in Auschwitz kept to pleasure the guards.

Some insight - the composition of the US military is a slice of America's young people. From what I understand, they commit crimes in the same degree as others of their age.

So in a population of several hundred thousand young people, how many will commit rape in the US - assuming they are not in the military? Quite a few, and a few will be egregious enough to make the news.

It's not military culture that "promotes" this sort of thing. If anything, I remember constant lectures on how not to be as criminal as the common civilian.

Not that lectures work on potential criminals.


just throwing out ideas - I like to look at things from different angles.

Wasn't Joy Division the part of the Nazis that were meant to rape as many blonde haired blue eyed women as they possibly could?

just throwing out ideas - I like to look at things from different angles.
Maybe you also need to clean out the attic - your ideas on what training infantrymen receive, and what their lifestyle is like is so far off, you sound like you just stepped off the flying saucer.

Lets prosecute these assholes to the full extent of the law.

Agreed.

Maybe you also need to clean out the attic - your ideas on what training infantrymen receive, and what their lifestyle is like is so far off, you sound like you just stepped off the flying saucer.

Steady...

Commenting as someone who's never received military training, I am curious as to how armies teach/train recruits to overcome the natural (for many, I suppose) aversion to taking someone else's life.

Maybe that's where the assumptions about 'dehumanisation' come from.

I'am afraid that the general population is more prone than these soldiers.
I think that this stems from the gang mentality.


that makes sense. I was under the impression, though, that conspiring to commit crimes was not an easy thing to do unless you know the people you are with are corrupt too. They had apparently seen this woman before and it seems that they went back specifically to rape this woman and I imagine that they also had planned to kill everyone afterwards to cover their tracks.

it's not like they were all doing it at the spur of the moment, which is more disturbing in my eyes.

when I think of gang mentality, I think more of people getting worked up at the moments and as their IQ level collectively drops as their aggression rises they then commit random acts of violence.

Wasn't Joy Division the part of the Nazis that were meant to rape as many blonde haired blue eyed women as they possibly could?

The language of scum. (http://library.thinkquest.org/12663/glossary.html)

Having been a grunt, I believe that Sum also has fantastic misconceptions about the life and training of an infantryman.

These men are in the 1/502nd - I was in the 2/502nd as an infantryman.

There isn't any "tight control" of your life as you presume, nor any training in being a fanatical mindless killer, nor any encouragement to brutalize people randomly, etc.


You're right I never went thru it and only know what friends have told me or what they portray trainign to be like in the movies as grunts get yelled and and demeaned as control over their lives is exerted. You said rape was about control so it would seem like a logical conclusion to jump to that they would want to find control over others as they have their own freedom limited, to gain back a sense of superiority. I don't think it's unreasonable to entertain the idea. I never said the upper ranks encouraged it directly, or didnt mean to imply that.

I am just trying to think about the psycology of it. My friend who is a dominatrix gets powerful businessmen coming to her to exert control over them because they are used to everyone doing whatever they say. I was looking at the soldiers as going the opposite direction with this phenom.

Joy division - group of female prisoners in Auschwitz kept to pleasure the guards.



oh how sad - I hadn't heard about that. I thought Joy Division was a band only.

Steady...

Commenting as someone who's never received military training, I am curious as to how armies teach/train recruits to overcome the natural (for many, I suppose) aversion to taking someone else's life.

Maybe that's where the assumptions about 'dehumanisation' come from.

Unless overcleaning of toilets somehow causes "dehumanization"....

That said, the only thing we get is at the firing range - in the Army, the targets are silhouettes that resemble (in dark green) the outline of the upper torso and head of a human.

No lectures on killing people, none of the stuff you see in movies. In fact, singing cadences with questionable content has gone the way of the dodo over 10 years ago. You're not allowed to sing "napalm sticks to kids" like they did two decades ago. And no cursing... cursing isn't allowed.

None of the "breaking people" either. That was forbidden in a formal order in 1984. They can't insult you during training, nor punish you by beating, etc. Sure, they can make you do pushups - that's extra training - but nothing that demeans your self-worth can come out of the drill sergeant's mouth.

If anything, they are placed under stricter rules of conduct than the average person in their early 20s lives under, unless you're living with your parents and they are being assholes.

oh how sad - I hadn't heard about that. I thought Joy Division was a band only.

Yeah - Ian Curtis was a fun-loving guy.

Maybe you also need to clean out the attic - your ideas on what training infantrymen receive, and what their lifestyle is like is so far off, you sound like you just stepped off the flying saucer.

right... sorry I forgot that infantry training consisted of being uplifted with positive affirmations as they sip tea made of aromatic flowers and do yoga by candlelight to soft calming music.

right... sorry I forgot that infantry training consisted of being uplifted with positive affirmations as they sip tea made of aromatic flowers and do yoga by candlelight to soft calming music.
I remember doing morning exercises to Olivia Newton-John's song "Physical" - no joke.

criminal investigation... Simple as. hey how many of us on this site have high pressure jobs? We don't engage in such conduct for goodness sake

sorry I'm a slow typist

I remember doing morning exercises to Olivia Newton-John's song "Physical" - no joke.


lol awesome

that makes sense. I was under the impression, though, that conspiring to commit crimes was not an easy thing to do unless you know the people you are with are corrupt too. They had apparently seen this woman before and it seems that they went back specifically to rape this woman and I imagine that they also had planned to kill everyone afterwards to cover their tracks.

it's not like they were all doing it at the spur of the moment, which is more disturbing in my eyes.

when I think of gang mentality, I think more of people getting worked up at the moments and as their IQ level collectively drops as their aggression rises they then commit random acts of violence.
this is survival in the world of beast.

Joy division - group of female prisoners in Auschwitz kept to pleasure the guards.

Why?

Why?

Sometimes even an SS trooper needs love. :rolleyes:

Sometimes even an SS trooper needs love. :rolleyes:
so love is rape.
and democracy is not?

Those soldiers should be shot in the face.

Those soldiers should be shot in the face.

If we don't give those guys a royal spanking I'm afraid we're still being hypocritical and giving the world more ammunition to hate us with. :(

Or just embed a whore with each unit.

The press is already doing that.

Some insight - the composition of the US military is a slice of America's young people. From what I understand, they commit crimes in the same degree as others of their age.
So in a population of several hundred thousand young people, how many will commit rape in the US - assuming they are not in the military? Quite a few, and a few will be egregious enough to make the news.
It's not military culture that "promotes" this sort of thing. If anything, I remember constant lectures on how not to be as criminal as the common civilian.
Not that lectures work on potential criminals.


There is pretty overwhelming evidence that the Armed Forces are taking in gangbangers (admitted hardcores, not peewees or B.G. kids) becuase they can't afford to refuse anyone. The drive to recruit is that high and the rolls are increasingly sparse.

We have had many, many pictures sent back to Chicago of Gangster Disciples, Black Disciples, Latin Kings, Vice Lords, and other "Folks" and "Peoples" Nations Gangs putting up tags symbols in areas they patrol over in the cities.

Members of "Norte X4" (Norteno gangs) and "Sur X3" (Sureno gangs) from Northern and Southern California are arriving, too. Visibly.

Some of the kids I work with have family members in these gangs. Despite the silly comic-book names, these groups don't fuck around. Many of these dudes were sent in at the encouragement of the gangs or crews, so they could traffic small armaments back on leave, and so they could come back with small-unit tactical training. For um, "civic" use.

Anyway, crime is often already "normalized" for these guys. They see it as a matter of necessity.

This, coupled with a very real, oppressive sense of "kill or be killed", and (from what I am told) an overwhelming sense that civil society has just completely broken down in many situations, makes for a spicy meatball indeed.

This is going to get worse and worse. And no, that's not some blanket indictment of the military. Just like with the cops, all you need is a small minority actively engaging in criminal activity, and an unwillingness (or inability) of the greater whole to stop it...and the whole force will be dragged down by it's worst representatives.

There is pretty overwhelming evidence that the Armed Forces are taking in gangbangers (admitted hardcores, not peewees or B.G. kids) becuase they can't afford to refuse anyone. The drive to recruit is that high and the rolls are increasingly sparse.

We have had many, many pictures sent back to Chicago of Gangster Disciples, Black Disciples, Latin Kings, Vice Lords, and other "Folks" and "Peoples" Nations Gangs putting up tags symbols in areas they patrol over in the cities.


The Vice Lords have always been in the US military. So have the Disciples. I've met many of them, as far back as the 1980s. Although ruthless, I did not find them any more likely to engage in violent illegal conduct than anyone else, including Mormons.

As long as they have no felony convictions, and a high school diploma or GED, they can enlist.

Just like anyone else.

As long as they have no felony convictions, and a high school diploma or GED, they can enlist.

Just like anyone else.
Are character references involved? You need two, including one from a high school teacher who has known you in an official capacity for 2+ years, just to ride on a British ammo and stores ship. Any reluctance to endorse you, and you're not getting in.

The Vice Lords have always been in the US military. So have the Disciples. I've met many of them, as far back as the 1980s. Although ruthless, I did not find them any more likely to engage in violent illegal conduct than anyone else, including Mormons.

As long as they have no felony convictions, and a high school diploma or GED, they can enlist.

Just like anyone else.

They can attempt to enlist. There are still weight standards, height standards, aptitude standards, drug testing, sight testing, hearing testing, many medical conditions will knock you right out(like asthma), etc.

There are character references, but I don't know if they even ever called mine... they never mentioned it, at least.

Are character references involved? You need two, including one from a high school teacher who has known you in an official capacity for 2+ years, just to ride on a British ammo and stores ship. Any reluctance to endorse you, and you're not getting in.

Not in the US. Hence the joke in the movie "Stripes"

Q: Have you ever been convicted of a felony?

A: Convicted? No.

The question and answer are quite accurate, which is why it is funny to Americans.

Certain jobs require clearances, which are obtained later, and include personal references. Also, some jobs, such as sniper, or nuclear weapons jobs, require psychological examinations as well.

Unless overcleaning of toilets somehow causes "dehumanization"....

That said, the only thing we get is at the firing range - in the Army, the targets are silhouettes that resemble (in dark green) the outline of the upper torso and head of a human.

No lectures on killing people, none of the stuff you see in movies. In fact, singing cadences with questionable content has gone the way of the dodo over 10 years ago. You're not allowed to sing "napalm sticks to kids" like they did two decades ago. And no cursing... cursing isn't allowed.

None of the "breaking people" either. That was forbidden in a formal order in 1984. They can't insult you during training, nor punish you by beating, etc. Sure, they can make you do pushups - that's extra training - but nothing that demeans your self-worth can come out of the drill sergeant's mouth.

If anything, they are placed under stricter rules of conduct than the average person in their early 20s lives under, unless you're living with your parents and they are being assholes.

Indeed. They will yell, they will be strict, they will "punish" you with pushups, running, etc, but they really don't debase you.

However, personally, I found making up reasons to punish you was going over a line(which I saw and heard about).

so love is rape.
and democracy is not?
Democracy is love, man. It's like a higher love than any other love combined. I smell like patchouli.

Democracy is love, man. It's like a higher love than any other love combined. I smell like patchouli.

*Sigged*

*Sigged*
It's a good feeling. :)

The Vice Lords have always been in the US military. So have the Disciples. I've met many of them, as far back as the 1980s. Although ruthless, I did not find them any more likely to engage in violent illegal conduct than anyone else, including Mormons.

Yes. Point taken from your personal observations. And I'm sorry for misspeaking.

What I meant to say is that, being from a background where doing things illegally is "more normal" (bad phrasing? sorry) than it would be for someone not in a criminal group, and being actively engaged in a full-on war where almost all percieved sense of real security is gone, and having been set into a situation where the rules of engagement are often unclear (or sometimes absent, or entirely used against you), this combination of factors, over months and days (I think) will lead to more cruelties, violent illegal conduct, and general mayhem. From our side, and likely whatever other "sides" there are (the police we are training, for instsnce).

I was out of line for

a) wording it like I have some crystal ball about what's going to happen, and I hope like hell I am wrong, and

b) making it sound as if merely being in a gang makes you a guaranteed offender no matter where you go.

If that were so, I'd have to give up on about 5% of the students I have taught. Possibly more;)

I may be looking at this the wrong way, really.

The last long, hellish war we engaged in (Vietnam), apparently was a factor in making gangs explode Stateside, not abroad. The unemployment, disillusionment, and unresolved anger that many faced, coupled with drug problems picked up or accentuated in Asia, helped make the newly arms-proficient (and sometimes newly well-armed) gang members of 1974 into much more active, violent offenders. That and the Stateside rush to control heroin trade. By '78 the violence and gunplay had led to an explosion in the state prisons and local correctional population. So much so, that the "Hoover gangs" forced a pact in order to claim steady territories and alliances "inside" for stability. Thus the Folks Nations were born. And soon after, the Peoples formed in response. then those same alliances hit the streets.

At least, this is how I am told it occurred. First, return form 'Nam, then increased crime, jail, new allegiance, new rivalries, and with the rise of freebase and crack territories, the "supergangs".

So it may not be that gangsters are going to cause more chaos, or be more instrumental in causing chaos, in Iraq. their presence there may be too slight, despite the prevalence of visible gang claims. It may have much more of a toll in the States.

As long as they have no felony convictions, and a high-school diploma or GED, they can enlist.

My worries about recruitment stem from reports from a whole a few newspapers (the Tribune for instance, a generally-backing-conservative-stances paper), and backed up by word-of-mouth from my uncle.

Supposedly, the need for recruitment is so high right now that many steps in the background check for recruits are being skipped.

One report also mentioned (IIRC)that normally, recruits are supposed to be given a check for visible gang regalia and tattoos, and that one can be rejected on failing that check alone. However, nowadays, people with visible street allegiances are being waved on in.

Mind you, this is all pretty subjective stuff. The articles I can recall were in the Sun-Times and the Trib, and they aren't necessarily on the ball about everything. And it's not like my uncle is a footsoldier out there with the troops right now. He has affirmed that (from his Viet Nam experience), in times of serious, drawn-out warfare, we start looking the other way and taking anyone.

But the thing is, I could be wrong. Hope so.

update on the story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060710/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_rape_case

5 GI's named (incl. two sargeants)

apparently after raping and killing the woman (report says she was approx 25 but a doctor estimates her age around 14), they killed her mother and father and her 5 year old sister :(

Lets prosecute these assholes to the full extent of the law.
Yeah!! Let's!!

The people who did that to her belong in HELL!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah!! Let's!!

The people who did that to her belong in HELL!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell is too good for them.