NationStates Jolt Archive

Probably declaring open season on myself, but what the hey?

In defense of Christians

In the timeless NS General battle, someone will wander on, read an anti-Christian(ity) thread and post about how everyone who doesn't believe is a big meanie. This is equivalent of waving a red flag at a bull as it excites the usual suspects to come in and start yet another debate about how evil Christianity has been/is, religious intolerance, gays and the Bible, evolution, the existence of God and the logical problems with that, and possibly a comment about tacos should LG wander by. The op of said post usually drives him or her self into a frenzy trying to defend his or her religion long with the usual Christian defenders on the forum who leap to battle. Eventually said thread is closed by the Mods for flaming.

This isn't one of those.

This is in defense of Christians, not Christianity, not religiously inspired intolerance, not asking if God exists, or if we were intelligently constructed by blind watch making monkeys or what have you.

Simply put, I see a lot of the legitimate attacks on religious fanatics painting all Christians with one broad brush. This is, of course, a fallacy. There is also another point I would like to point out, while religion has done some incredibly BAD things, it has also done some incredibly GOOD things as well. Condemn all Christians and you condemn Mother Teresa who's work with the poor in India has become a definition for saintly behavior (which in and of itself was taken from the actions of religiously inspired people). Point out that some of the greatest bigots in history were Christian, and you ignore the thousands of Christians who work the world over in places that are not safe and comfortable to bring water, food, medicine and teaching due to religious motivation and a commandment from Jesus that we should give our shirt to those who have none.

You cast Pope John Paul II (disagree with his stances as you may, but can you really say he did not work towards peace and effected it in many places) as the same as Fred Philips.

You paint the Rev. Dr. Martian Luther King Jr., who had a strong Christian message in his march for equality; with the same brush you quickly tar those who effected the inquisition.

I have often argued that Islam and most Muslims MUST be held separate from the actions of a few deranged individuals who kill in its name. It seems obvious to me that it is the work of man, and not the religion, that has perverted a divine work, and one that has inspired many to do great good.

I feel Christianity is the same. There has been a lot of good done, and still done, in its name. The majority of Christians try to live a good life and use its guidance to do just that.

So what I ask is the next time we have another "Christians suck" or "Non-Christians suck" thread, that it be considered that Christians as a group include people like St. Jude's Children's Hospital who are working towards a cure for childhood cancer and provides treatment for children for free because of religious beliefs. It includes the Salvation Army who has been feeding the poor and homeless because of Christian beliefs. It includes a lot of people beyond the fundies.

Does this mean I ask that you not attack Christianity or some of the sillier and inflexible beliefs? No, not at all. An unexamined faith is worthless and anyone inspiring towards heaven had better damn well check (and be checked) that their feet haven't been dragging in the mud, but I do ask to remember that not all Christians are those whom you are attacking.

Ok, let it begin.

Thank you for being decent. There's far too little of that these days, espescially in forumland.

Ok, I'll bite. How does one encourage a Christian to defend their beliefs? Many times, when one asks a Christian about their beliefs, they will hide behind their Bible and quote scripture to you, but when you ask them about what does it mean to them, they will either continue on quoting, become indignant that one does not see what is obvious to them, or turn mute. I would think if a belief was so important to them, they would be willing to explain it in great detail to others.

How come everybody comes down on Christians here and not any other religions, i dont want that to happen because its wrong to hate, not like, make fun of, etc. of any religion, but why is it always Christianity.

Ok, I'll bite. How does one encourage a Christian to defend their beliefs? Many times, when one asks a Christian about their beliefs, they will hide behind their Bible and quote scripture to you, but when you ask them about what does it mean to them, they will either continue on quoting, become indignant that one does not see what is obvious to them, or turn mute. I would think if a belief was so important to them, they would be willing to explain it in great detail to others.
Depends upon the Christian of course (which is my point). But for many, scripture IS the basis. It's like asking you why you believe in a math formula.

But, in my case, I have struggled with it a lot so if you any questions for ME, I am glad to answer them (after lunch, sorry).

Just please dont apply my answers to all Christians.

seems to me the people you mention were good people dispite being Christian, not because of it. to paraphrase that one quote, "there will always be good people who do good things, and evil people who do evil things, but it takes religion for good people to do evil things." I know its not the quote but you get the idea.

Ok, I'll bite. How does one encourage a Christian to defend their beliefs? Many times, when one asks a Christian about their beliefs, they will hide behind their Bible and quote scripture to you, but when you ask them about what does it mean to them, they will either continue on quoting, become indignant that one does not see what is obvious to them, or turn mute. I would think if a belief was so important to them, they would be willing to explain it in great detail to others.

?

Hmm I'm Christian but I dont go quoting from the Bible. I don't know anyone who does that either. In fact I use the Bible as a very loose basis on what I believe in. I kinda form my own interpretations and opinions on all those matters.

How come everybody comes down on Christians here and not any other religions, i dont want that to happen because its wrong to hate, not like, make fun of, etc. of any religion, but why is it always Christianity.
Ah, but see, here they attack everyone (see my mention os Islam).

How come everybody comes down on Christians here and not any other religions, i dont want that to happen because its wrong to hate, not like, make fun of, etc. of any religion, but why is it always Christianity.

It's the one people are most familliar with. There are limited attempts to bash Islam and Scientology, but most people's exposure to these beliefs is second-hand at best. I have never seen anyone attempt to bash Sufis or Jains, probably out of ignorance more than anything else. No, scratch that. There are probably no Sufis or Jains on here. Either that or they have the wisdom to remain silent and not provide people with the opportunity to incur more suffering by disparaging them.

I'm christian. Do I strike any of you as the typical christian?

*munches on a taco*

We're not all like Pat Robertson.

Depends upon the Christian of course (which is my point). But for many, scripture IS the basis. It's like asking you why you believe in a math formula.

But, in my case, I have struggled with it a lot so if you any questions for ME, I am glad to answer them (after lunch, sorry).

Just please dont apply my answers to all Christians.

I will take you up on your offer and respect your request. Thank you for the invitation to do so.

First question: Can Christians aspire to develop the life condition of Jesus, or would such a life condition be so far removed from a human being that it can only be admired rather than persued?

seems to me the people you mention were good people dispite being Christian, not because of it. to paraphrase that one quote, "there will always be good people who do good things, and evil people who do evil things, but it takes religion for good people to do evil things." I know its not the quote but you get the idea.
That's where you're wrong. There are many people who feel motivated or driven on the basis of religious conviction to do good things. Perhaps you'll find people who give greatly of themselves because they believe in following Christ's example. I disagree quite strongly with this sentiment, and plenty of other things have driven decent enough people to do horrible things besides merely religion. Any sort of belief (religious, political or otherwise) can be twisted to drive good people to do horrible things.

I'm christian. Do I strike any of you as the typical christian?

*munches on a taco*

We're not all like Pat Robertson.
why are you a Christian? were you raised like that so your parents pounded it in to you or did you have a seeing the light moment when you were in some tough times?

How come everybody comes down on Christians here and not any other religions, i dont want that to happen because its wrong to hate, not like, make fun of, etc. of any religion, but why is it always Christianity.



cause we turn the other cheek...easy target i suppose.and i aint talking fundie twits.

i love muslims,hindus,animists..you know,allof everyone..i dop say i dislike being portrayed as some knee jerk idiot cause i was raised with christian ideals(not bad ones at that..love thy neighbor..yada yada..)
just maybe loving people are easy targets..go figure.

no retaliation to speak of,with real christians.

but then again,as the fundie muslims have perverted a religion to further their hate and prejudices,and fears.
so have the christian fundies...sad and pathetic.

my mom was like mother theresa...she would take in anyone..period...as would like most muslims...but no..their grace is usurped by hatefull,small minded evil people...sad!

That's where you're wrong. There are many people who feel motivated or driven on the basis of religious conviction to do good things. Perhaps you'll find people who give greatly of themselves because they believe in following Christ's example. I disagree quite strongly with this sentiment, and plenty of other things have driven decent enough people to do horrible things besides merely religion. Any sort of belief (religious, political or otherwise) can be twisted to drive good people to do horrible things.
fair enough, things other than religion can make people do bad things. However I think people are good dispite their religious faith and would mostly likely be good people without religion. And if people do need a book of fairy tales to tell you not to kill someone they are probably really bad people to dont deserve to live.

?

Hmm I'm Christian but I dont go quoting from the Bible. I don't know anyone who does that either. In fact I use the Bible as a very loose basis on what I believe in. I kinda form my own interpretations and opinions on all those matters.

May I ask you a question then? Does being a Christian require believing in the divinity of Jesus or can one simply believe in the teachings of Jesus? There is another question that goes with this, but I wish to keep this at the pace of a well-reasoned dialogue.

I am a Christian, and I despise Fred PHELPS. I support the thread maker.

I am a Christian, and I despise Fred PHELPS. I support the thread maker.
I thought you were a jew

May I ask you a question then? Does being a Christian require believing in the divinity of Jesus or can one simply believe in the teachings of Jesus? There is another question that goes with this, but I wish to keep this at the pace of a well-reasoned dialogue.

If Christ wasn't divine the entire Christian faith would be nothing. Christ was divine, and in fact the Son of God.

All we need is a little cup of respect.

If Christ wasn't divine the entire Christian faith would be nothing. Christ was divine, and in fact the Son of God.


Now you've done it.

fair enough, things other than religion can make people do bad things. However I think people are good dispite their religious faith and would mostly likely be good people without religion. And if people do need a book of fairy tales to tell you not to kill someone they are probably really bad people to dont deserve to live.
I wouldn't be so certain of that one. Another thing to think about is the fact that religion can be used as a lens to focus one's good qualities. Would Mother Theresa have gone to India without her faith? I don't know, but I do know that her convictions had a lot to do with her actions.

Beyond that, religion does more than just provide parables and spiritual concepts. Oftentimes it is the social atmosphere that involves a religious upbringing that helps instill certain values of decency.

I know I was brought up as a Methodist, and all throughout my childhood, Sunday School extolled the virtues of personal responsibility, as well as respect for others. We learned that everyone has an inherent level of dignity, and should be respected, whatever their beliefs are. Tell me, how can that sort of thing be wrong?

How come everybody comes down on Christians here and not any other religions, i dont want that to happen because its wrong to hate, not like, make fun of, etc. of any religion, but why is it always Christianity.


No, no, it really isn't. Islam is getting destroyed in a couple of other threads.

It really isn't Christianity always. But it might seem that way to a believer.

I think that more evangelicals need to read some religious works outside of the Bible.

All of the good evangelicals I know TOTALLY know their Christian history, they knew their Lives of the Saints, they knew The city of God Against the Pagans, they know historical perspective and could see and recount things from different perspectives, not just the Apostles and KJB quotes. And yes, I know that many think that only Catholics have to care about the works of St. Augustine, but I think that evangelicals should too.

It's your history, man!

Well-rounded religious reading makes for a better proselytizer. Your attempts at convincing non-believers of the strength of evidence are much more effective. Instead of being the guy (some poster mentioned earlier) who merely runs over Scripture quotes again and again, when asked, "What does this mean to you, and why should I believe it?", you'll have a multiplicity of ways to answer.

I've been very lucky to meet evangelicals who were very smart, caring, sincere, and trying to do the right thing. Even if we were entirely at odds on women's rights, politics in religion, separation of church and state...you could tell they weren't trying to "further their cause" as some opportunist attempt at hurting people for profit. Nor were they bigots who reveled in deliberate, callous ignorance.
They considered my opinions genuinely important, as shocking as my opinions (and beliefs, and occasionally actions) were to them. And I responded in kind. Literally. Cordiality and good intentions..led to kindness and understanding.

All we need is a little cup of respect.
And common decency would be quite awesome as well.

why are you a Christian? were you raised like that so your parents pounded it in to you or did you have a seeing the light moment when you were in some tough times?

My mother was catholic, but I was agnostic for most of my life.

I started to believe as I studied physics. I basically found God in science. I know it sonds odd, but then again, what else would you expect from me?

Still, it was really an academic belief until I was in a car accident. See, I don't wear seatbelts. I don't believe in seatbelts and I don't believe that they should be requird by law. I never used ot wer my seatbelt. But for some reason, I wore my seatbelt that night. I think it was the first time I ever wore it while I was behind the wheel. Anyway, I fall asleep at the wheel and by the time I wake up, it's too late. I hit a telephone pole at 45 mph.

The car was totaled. I walked away from the accident completely unharmed save for a bruise on my chest(from the seatbelt). My sudden departure from my norm saved my life. Why did I choose that particular time to completely change my habit? It was something I thought about long and hard. Finally I decided that the only reason was that I was supposed to be alive. Someone or something wanted me here at least a little longer. That's a pretty comforting thought.

May I ask you a question then? Does being a Christian require believing in the divinity of Jesus or can one simply believe in the teachings of Jesus? There is another question that goes with this, but I wish to keep this at the pace of a well-reasoned dialogue.

Depends who you ask. If you ask me, I think that the message is more important than the messenger.

If Christ wasn't divine the entire Christian faith would be nothing. Christ was divine, and in fact the Son of God.

I am truly sorry to hear that, as far as your first statement goes. If Christianity has nothing to offer to non-Christians, then we are all doomed.

Depends who you ask. If you ask me, I think that the message is more important than the messenger.
Then there is hope for peace on Earth. Thank you.

If just believing in Jesus' teachings makes you a Christian than most Jews are Christians as well. :p

Evangelists... ask a female evangelist what she thinks about women's rights. In fact, ask -any- evangelist what they think about Benny Hinn or any of the other crackpot televangelists who "heal" people. To me it honestly doesn't matter what religion you are if you think those guys aren't complete phony bastards - you're just a sucker to them.

My mother was catholic, but I was agnostic for most of my life.

I started to believe as I studied physics. I basically found God in science. I know it sonds odd, but then again, what else would you expect from me?

Still, it was really an academic belief until I was in a car accident. See, I don't wear seatbelts. I don't believe in seatbelts and I don't believe that they should be requird by law. I never used ot wer my seatbelt. But for some reason, I wore my seatbelt that night. I think it was the first time I ever wore it while I was behind the wheel. Anyway, I fall asleep at the wheel and by the time I wake up, it's too late. I hit a telephone pole at 45 mph.

The car was totaled. I walked away from the accident completely unharmed save for a bruise on my chest(from the seatbelt). My sudden departure from my norm saved my life. Why did I choose that particular time to completely change my habit? It was something I thought about long and hard. Finally I decided that the only reason was that I was supposed to be alive. Someone or something wanted me here at least a little longer. That's a pretty comforting thought.

Yeah, it's a comforting thought, but it doesn't fit with Catholocism as comforting as it is. If god made you put your seatbelt on that night, he interfered with your free will. Your free will and your choices would have killed you that night - he lets millions of people die every day because of their choices, so why did he supposedly save you and break the covenant of free will?

seems to me the people you mention were good people dispite being Christian, not because of it. to paraphrase that one quote, "there will always be good people who do good things, and evil people who do evil things, but it takes religion for good people to do evil things." I know its not the quote but you get the idea.
Cause and effect is hard to pin down, insperation now... I would say that the people I mentioned were inspired by their religion.

Could they have been inspired by something else? Of course they could have, but they were inspired by Christianity.

I'm christian. Do I strike any of you as the typical christian?

*munches on a taco*

We're not all like Pat Robertson.

LG, you don't strike people as typical in general, I think.

And as a fellow Christian, Pat Robertson makes me sad.

*munches on a taco*
See? Told'ja all we get tacos in these threads. ;)

May I ask you a question then? Does being a Christian require believing in the divinity of Jesus or can one simply believe in the teachings of Jesus? There is another question that goes with this, but I wish to keep this at the pace of a well-reasoned dialogue.

i dont know if jesus was the son of god,but i wish he was...we would all be better off.

but yes,in my opinion,if you follow the teachings of jesus(son of god or not)he had some damn fine ideas.

like i said..too bad we didn't have to create a dogma around it...just love the fellow man..aint complicated if you ask me.

i dont know if jesus was the son of god,but i wish he was...we would all be better off.

but yes,in my opinion,if you follow the teachings of jesus(son of god or not)he had some damn fine ideas.

like i said..too bad we didn't have to create a dogma around it...just love the fellow man..aint complicated if you ask me.

Jesus never made it complicated. It was the apostles and henceforth the church and the creators of the bible itself who did that.

I will take you up on your offer and respect your request. Thank you for the invitation to do so.

First question: Can Christians aspire to develop the life condition of Jesus, or would such a life condition be so far removed from a human being that it can only be admired rather than persued?
You mean can I become Christlike? I know I can't. I'm waaaaaaaaay too mean at times, and a brat (added in at the instance of my fiancee).

However, I feel that it is a worthwhile goal to go for. I look at it this way, what was Jesus saying? Really?

When you get down to it, it's love each other and God. Loving God is (usually) easy. Loving Rush Limbaugh takes a lot of work. But, honestly, if I didn't try how can I ask others to love me? If I didn't try to treat others the way I want to, how can I demand such treatment? I am not more special than someone else after all.

Jesus showed that not only can it be done, but that as long as you try your best, you can still make a difference in doing so. It sounds like a good life philosophy to me, and a worthy goal to spend a life on.

Yeah, it's a comforting thought, but it doesn't fit with Catholocism as comforting as it is. If god made you put your seatbelt on that night, he interfered with your free will. Your free will and your choices would have killed you that night - he lets millions of people die every day because of their choices, so why did he supposedly save you and break the covenant of free will?

Who is talking Catholicism? I'm not catholic. I'm christian. He saved me because it wasn't my time yet. He was able to save me because I was able to hear Him.

May I ask you a question then? Does being a Christian require believing in the divinity of Jesus or can one simply believe in the teachings of Jesus? There is another question that goes with this, but I wish to keep this at the pace of a well-reasoned dialogue.

The essence of being Christian is to follow Christ. If you're doing that, you're a Christian, regardless of your political beliefs, religious beliefs, culture, nationality, eye color...

That's how I see it, anyway.

i dont know if jesus was the son of god,but i wish he was...we would all be better off.

but yes,in my opinion,if you follow the teachings of jesus(son of god or not)he had some damn fine ideas.

like i said..too bad we didn't have to create a dogma around it...just love the fellow man..aint complicated if you ask me.

The difficulty lies in the simplicity. People refuse to believe that it is that simple and consequently reject it and look elsewhere. I often wonder if the teachings of Jesus would be more widely accepted if he were to have used more expedients to teach people.

See? Told'ja all we get tacos in these threads. ;)

How could I not? :)

My mother was catholic, but I was agnostic for most of my life.

I started to believe as I studied physics. I basically found God in science. I know it sonds odd, but then again, what else would you expect from me?

Still, it was really an academic belief until I was in a car accident. See, I don't wear seatbelts. I don't believe in seatbelts and I don't believe that they should be requird by law. I never used ot wer my seatbelt. But for some reason, I wore my seatbelt that night. I think it was the first time I ever wore it while I was behind the wheel. Anyway, I fall asleep at the wheel and by the time I wake up, it's too late. I hit a telephone pole at 45 mph.

The car was totaled. I walked away from the accident completely unharmed save for a bruise on my chest(from the seatbelt). My sudden departure from my norm saved my life. Why did I choose that particular time to completely change my habit? It was something I thought about long and hard. Finally I decided that the only reason was that I was supposed to be alive. Someone or something wanted me here at least a little longer. That's a pretty comforting thought.
Right, so you had the see the light moment. I have found Christians only become Christians in two ways, one is that their family raised them like that and they were basically brainwashed since birth and the other is your case. Something bad happens, your alive when you feel you shouldnt be and yay, Jesus did it. funny how that works.

Who is talking Catholicism? I'm not catholic. I'm christian. He saved me because it wasn't my time yet. He was able to save me because I was able to hear Him.

Right. Does a friend giving you whispered advice constitute a breach of your free will?

May I ask you a question then? Does being a Christian require believing in the divinity of Jesus or can one simply believe in the teachings of Jesus? There is another question that goes with this, but I wish to keep this at the pace of a well-reasoned dialogue.
For me, personally, it is keeping the teachings of Jesus that is more important than His divinity (which is also important too, of course). I just view it as He asked us to be, well, decent humans. Since that's a lifetime's work, I view that as a wee bit more important as it effects others. The divinity aspect is personal faith and only comes into play after you're dead, at which case unless you come back as a zombie, it does NOT effect others.

Right. Does a friend giving you whispered advice constitute a breach of your free will?

He didn't whisper, he supposedly made him do it. He put on his seatbelt because Jesus said "Dude, you'll wanna wear that, it's gonna get bumpy."

snip

Ok, let it begin.

Amazingly well said! I certainly agree with you about the majority of Xians and Mlims being basicly good people.
Two things would make 'em even better.
1. Be the same good person, but without needing religion to motivate them.
2. If they are motivated by religion, keep it in their pants. Deeds speak louder than words, and all that God-talk is so much blah blah blah.
Thanks again for such an intelligent and well thought out post!

Right, so you had the see the light moment. I have found Christians only become Christians in two ways, one is that their family raised them like that and they were basically brainwashed since birth and the other is your case. Something bad happens, your alive when you feel you shouldnt be and yay, Jesus did it. funny how that works.

That's generally how metaphysical beliefs come about. We either have a "Eureka!" moment, a form of indoctrination, or both.

He didn't whisper, he supposedly made him do it. He put on his seatbelt because Jesus said "Dude, you'll wanna wear that, it's gonna get bumpy."

I don't recall LG saying, "Jesus made me do it."

Perhaps you could point me to the post where he said that.

I know I was brought up as a Methodist, and all throughout my childhood, Sunday School extolled the virtues of personal responsibility, as well as respect for others. We learned that everyone has an inherent level of dignity, and should be respected, whatever their beliefs are. Tell me, how can that sort of thing be wrong?
Because people can be taught to respect other people as they would themselves, respect the basic human rights we all have and care about the weakest and poorest among us without religion as I and many others have been. I was taught all that without the religious side effects of being against homosexuals, logic, science and modernism in favour of backwards traditional thought. That is why I see it as wrong.

Right, so you had the see the light moment. I have found Christians only become Christians in two ways, one is that their family raised them like that and they were basically brainwashed since birth and the other is your case. Something bad happens, your alive when you feel you shouldnt be and yay, Jesus did it. funny how that works.
Hate to disapoint you, but neither happened to me. My mother raised me vaugly Christian, mainly telling me that I was Christian and that was about it. Much, much later on in my life (junior high) I was asked if I wanted to attend my family's church. I went in kicking and screaming. However, before I commited I did a lot of research, reading up, looking around, asking questions and, in the end, deciding that what was being said meshed in with the vaules I had already decided upon (Golden rule and all that).

No brain washing, no seeing the light, just coming to my faith and then working with it.

That's generally how metaphysical beliefs come about. We either have a "Eureka!" moment, a form of indoctrination, or both.
I know. But to me it just seems that there is something fundamentally wrong with that process. Im not sure why.

Because people can be taught to respect other people as they would themselves, respect the basic human rights we all have and care about the weakest and poorest among us without religion as I and many others have been. I was taught all that without the religious side effects of being against homosexuals, logic, science and modernism in favour of backwards traditional thought. That is why I see it as wrong.

Let me try to re-phrase your argument so I can understand it, part of the reason you don't like religion is because it requires demands of its believers?

I hope you return to the Methodist church. It's a great church founded by John Wesley.

Amazingly well said! I certainly agree with you about the majority of Xians and Mlims being basicly good people.
Two things would make 'em even better.
1. Be the same good person, but without needing religion to motivate them.
We all need motovation and insperation at times. I know without the motovation of getting a cup of coffee in the morning I'd NEVER get out of bed. ;)

2. If they are motivated by religion, keep it in their pants. Deeds speak louder than words, and all that God-talk is so much blah blah blah.
I'd say the majority of them do. Because you're right, deeds are much louder. But being quiet means we get overlooked a lot.

Thanks again for such an intelligent and well thought out post!
You're very welcome, thank you for an intelligent responce.

Hate to disapoint you, but neither happened to me. My mother raised me vaugly Christian, mainly telling me that I was Christian and that was about it. Much, much later on in my life (junior high) I was asked if I wanted to attend my family's church. I went in kicking and screaming. However, before I commited I did a lot of research, reading up, looking around, asking questions and, in the end, deciding that what was being said meshed in with the vaules I had already decided upon (Golden rule and all that).

No brain washing, no seeing the light, just coming to my faith and then working with it.

So you believe now? This is great news!

Let me try to re-phrase your argument so I can understand it, part of the reason you don't like religion is because it requires demands of its believers?

I hope you return to the Methodist church. It's a great church founded by John Wesley.
Insert the word "irrational" between "requires" and "demands" ;)

as one of the horriable christianity bashers on this site I'd like to appoligize. I have nothing against christians personally or christianity in general. However I have an issue with people who hide behind the scriptures and think that just because they quoted a book I do not believe or follow I will change my mind because it is their god's word. And due to this I fight back accordingly. I have not seen people directly attack christians until after they make a directly religious statement in a secular thread or they go after someone else with the bible. In fact if bible quoting was banned on this forum (along with koran quoting, blatently jewish religious remarks and any other religious quotations or blatently religious arguments) no one would go after conservitive christians because of their christian ideals.

Hate to disapoint you, but neither happened to me. My mother raised me vaugly Christian, mainly telling me that I was Christian and that was about it. Much, much later on in my life (junior high) I was asked if I wanted to attend my family's church. I went in kicking and screaming. However, before I commited I did a lot of research, reading up, looking around, asking questions and, in the end, deciding that what was being said meshed in with the vaules I had already decided upon (Golden rule and all that).

No brain washing, no seeing the light, just coming to my faith and then working with it.
There are exceptions to every rule. However, there is a hint to brainwashing in there as you admit, your mum did raise you vaugly Christian.

I know. But to me it just seems that there is something fundamentally wrong with that process. Im not sure why.

That process is what we have. Perhaps you're looking for more than the universe has to offer.

I am a Christian, and I despise Fred PHELPS. I support the thread maker.

I oppose PHELPS also, but even though he is mean, he does try to make the point that a lot of people nowadays believe people can sin all they want and still go to heaven.

It's just something to think about.

Can you sin all you want without repentance and still get to heaven?

Because people can be taught to respect other people as they would themselves, respect the basic human rights we all have and care about the weakest and poorest among us without religion as I and many others have been. I was taught all that without the religious side effects of being against homosexuals, logic, science and modernism in favour of backwards traditional thought. That is why I see it as wrong.
I also am not against homosexuals, logic, sicence, and modernism. Traditional thought may or may not depending on the thought (Thoughs like it is a bad idea to forget your wife's birthday I'm more than happy to agree to).

Like I said, not all Christians are like that. There's a whole lot of us with a wide range of beliefs who use our faith as an insperation to do good stuff. And not at the cost of having to disbelieve in the rest either.

Let me try to re-phrase your argument so I can understand it, part of the reason you don't like religion is because it requires demands of its believers?

I hope you return to the Methodist church. It's a great church founded by John Wesley.
I suppose that is one reason why I dislike religion, but I didnt really say that and why would I return to the methodist church when I have never in my life been a part, or thought of being a part of said church?

as one of the horriable christianity bashers on this site I'd like to appoligize. I have nothing against christians personally or christianity in general. However I have an issue with people who hide behind the scriptures and think that just because they quoted a book I do not believe or follow I will change my mind because it is their god's word. And due to this I fight back accordingly. I have not seen people directly attack christians until after they make a directly religious statement in a secular thread or they go after someone else with the bible. In fact if bible quoting was banned on this forum (along with koran quoting, blatently jewish religious remarks and any other religious quotations or blatently religious arguments) no one would go after conservitive christians because of their christian ideals.

It's nice that you made up with the Christians after fighting for so long. Let me try to rephrase what your saying so I can understand:

You are ok with Christians so long as they don't express it after Sunday services?

So you believe now? This is great news!
I've been believing for a very long time. This hasn't changed since I came to NS General.

I oppose PHELPS also, but even though he is mean, he does try to make the point that a lot of people nowadays believe people can sin all they want and still go to heaven.

It's just something to think about.

Can you sin all you want without repentance and still get to heaven?
If Jesus truly died to take away our sins, yes. Everyone is forgiven. No exceptions.

I know. But to me it just seems that there is something fundamentally wrong with that process. Im not sure why.


so you believe something but can't explain why? :p

there is nothing wrong with agreeing with something you read. myself I am not a christian but I came to believe in God thru a powerful "aha!" filled with loving light and universal consciousness. I was an agnostic, leaning atheist until that. Afterwards I had chanced upon some eastern literature and a lot of their spiritual teachings jived with my experience.

Insert the word "irrational" between "requires" and "demands" ;)

Insert Quip, you seem nice, but which of Christ's commands were irrational? The famous theologian C.S.Lewis said that there are three categories of belief on Christ:

1) He was a Liar
2) He was a Lunatic
3) He is the Lord

So I figure your number 2?

Well, I know several people who came to faith, as it's called, because Christians have reached out to them. That is a way that I have tried and struggled with. However, I have easily learned not to hide behind scriptures because non-believers(actually people in general) will not listen to words of a book they don't believe is true.

There are exceptions to every rule. However, there is a hint to brainwashing in there as you admit, your mum did raise you vaugly Christian.
Well, said brainwashing was:

Me: Mommy, what religion are we?

Mom: We're Christian.
(I went to school the next day thinking we're something that starts with a c. I thought I was Catholic for about a week and a half).

Me: Mommy, what's Christmas?

Mom: Jesus's birthday.
(I then demanded to know why we didn't have a birthday party for Him).

It was very, very vauge.

It's nice that you made up with the Christians after fighting for so long. Let me try to rephrase what your saying so I can understand:

You are ok with Christians so long as they don't express it after Sunday services?
Amen! Exactly what I meant by "keep it in their pants."
God said, "Believe the Word."
God said, "Obey the Word."
God said, "Spread the Word."
Nearest thing to a human computer virus ;)

If Jesus truly died to take away our sins, yes. Everyone is forgiven. No exceptions.

There is a small branch of liberal Christianity (i.e. Unitarian, Episcopalian, etc.) that shares your view of universal salvation. My only question isn't with the theory per se, but then if Christ died for everyone's sins without exception, what's the point of even going to church then?

Amen! Exactly what I meant by "keep it in their pants."
God said, "Believe the Word."
God said, "Obey the Word."
God said, "Spread the Word."
Nearest thing to a human computer virus ;)

Oh Quip, maybe God is just calling you home. Christ did tell his Apostles to go and preach to all the nations in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Insert Quip, you seem nice, but which of Christ's commands were irrational? The famous theologian C.S.Lewis said that there are three categories of belief on Christ:

1) He was a Liar
2) He was a Lunatic
3) He is the Lord

So I figure your number 2?
Not Christ's demands, the Church's ;)
As for Mister Lewis, what part of "C. S." don't you understand?

Me: Mommy, what's Christmas?

Mom: Jesus's birthday.
(I then demanded to know why we didn't have a birthday party for Him).

It was very, very vauge.

My family actually has a birthday party for Jesus. Complete with cake and ice cream. We don't add a candle for each year though. Fire hazard, ya know?

Well, said brainwashing was:

Me: Mommy, what religion are we?

Mom: We're Christian.
(I went to school the next day thinking we're something that starts with a c. I thought I was Catholic for about a week and a half).

Me: Mommy, what's Christmas?

Mom: Jesus's birthday.
(I then demanded to know why we didn't have a birthday party for Him).

It was very, very vauge.

I hope you return home to Christ one day.

There is a small branch of liberal Christianity (i.e. Unitarian, Episcopalian, etc.) that shares your view of universal salvation. My only question isn't with the theory per se, but then if Christ died for everyone's sins without exception, what's the point of even going to church then?
Exactly :)

Not Christ's demands, the Church's ;)
As for Mister Lewis, wnat part of "C. S." don't you understand?

I don't understand about the C.S., but a lot of what the church demands is rooted in the Law as expanded and clarified by Christ. So, most traditional churches are only demanding what Christ originally demanded.

Hopefully you can be reconciled at some point, but in the mean time, I'll pray for you.

Exactly :)

Insert Quip, I'm praying for you. I wish I knew if you were European, and if you were in university?

There is a small branch of liberal Christianity (i.e. Unitarian, Episcopalian, etc.) that shares your view of universal salvation. My only question isn't with the theory per se, but then if Christ died for everyone's sins without exception, what's the point of even going to church then?

There are several reasons to have a faith community, independent of the theological ones. Mutual support, accountability, a social group more conducive to living out your beliefs, finding a mate who shares your faith, etc.

My family actually has a birthday party for Jesus. Complete with cake and ice cream. We don't add a candle for each year though. Fire hazard, ya know?
Ironically enough, Japanese eat Christmas cake during Christmas with candles and most of the people I have talked to think it is because of Jesus's birthday.

I don't understand about the C.S., but a lot of what the church demands is rooted in the Law as expanded and clarified by Christ. So, most traditional churches are only demanding what Christ originally demanded.

Hopefully you can be reconciled at some point, but in the mean time, I'll pray for you.
Back in the '70s, a guy named Lucas made a film about the '50s (ironically set in '62) called "American Graffiti." In it is an explanation of "C. S."
And thanks, please feel free to pray for me. I take it in the Spirit in which it is intended. ;)

I hope you return home to Christ one day.
Um... that was when I was a small child. I'm 27 now.

I also am not against homosexuals, logic, sicence, and modernism. Traditional thought may or may not depending on the thought (Thoughs like it is a bad idea to forget your wife's birthday I'm more than happy to agree to).

Like I said, not all Christians are like that. There's a whole lot of us with a wide range of beliefs who use our faith as an insperation to do good stuff. And not at the cost of having to disbelieve in the rest either.
You believe homosexuality is a sin right, as that is expressed in the bible, thus you are against gays. You probably dont belief in evolution, thus your against logic and science. Not to mention the fact you believe in god which flies in the face of logic by itself. If these arent accurate about you I apologize in advance,but Im going on best guesses. free feel to state otherwise.

There is a small branch of liberal Christianity (i.e. Unitarian, Episcopalian, etc.) that shares your view of universal salvation. My only question isn't with the theory per se, but then if Christ died for everyone's sins without exception, what's the point of even going to church then?

What's the point of celebrating Mother's Day? Your mother already gave birth to you.

It's like that. It's being grateful. It's saying thank you and it helps you gain introspection.

There are several reasons to have a faith community, independent of the theological ones. Mutual support, accountability, a social group more conducive to living out your beliefs, finding a mate who shares your faith, etc.

(my bold)

Would that all groups were such.

Ironically enough, Japanese eat Christmas cake during Christmas with candles and most of the people I have talked to think it is because of Jesus's birthday.

Hmmm. I think a Japanese foreign exchange student told me about that a couple years ago. It's an interesting tradition.

It's nice that you made up with the Christians after fighting for so long. Let me try to rephrase what your saying so I can understand:

You are ok with Christians so long as they don't express it after Sunday services?

No not in the slightest. Several of my best friends are christian. What I have an issue with is if I am debating something and someone tells me I am wrong based solely on the bible. If you are going to argue have something secular to back it up. Not just 'this is so because in this chapter the bible says this.'

Back in the '70s, a guy named Lucas made a film about the '50s (ironically set in '62) called "American Graffiti." In it is an explanation of "C. S."
And thanks, please feel free to pray for me. I take it in the Spirit in which it is intended. ;)

No, not that, his name was Clive Stapes Lewis. He wrote the Narnia series, and he also wrote one of the best defenses of the Christian faith, Mere Christianity. It's good for anyone who's an atheist (or even if your a believing Christian) and want to understand Christianity, it also explains some of the concepts that the American Founders believe in, so it wouldn't be a waste of time at all.

(my bold)

Would that all groups were such.

Indeed.

No not in the slightest. Several of my best friends are christian. What I have an issue with is if I am debating something and someone tells me I am wrong based solely on the bible. If you are going to argue have something secular to back it up. Not just 'this is so because in this chapter the bible says this.'

Many people make this case. But many of the things in the bible have natural effects also. One of the quotes is "the wage of sin is death." This has application both in the secular world and the eternal world. Sin causes both earthly death, and death in terms of separation from God (which leads to Hell).

No, not that, his name was Clive Stapes Lewis. He wrote the Narnia series, and he also wrote one of the best defenses of the Christian faith, Mere Christianity. It's good for anyone who's an atheist (or even if your a believing Christian) and want to understand Christianity, it also explains some of the concepts that the American Founders believe in, so it wouldn't be a waste of time at all.
Richard Feynman wrote a book on quantum electrodynamics. Much better reading ;)

Richard Feynman wrote a book on quantum electrodynamics. Much better reading ;)

You strongly worship Science I suppose. I'm not sure there is anything in QED that disproves God and scientists are not exempt from the need for God. Christ did say that one of the reasons he came as a man was so that people who can see could be made blind, and that the blind could see.

Beware of this trap. I'm praying for you.

Many people make this case. But many of the things in the bible have natural effects also. One of the quotes is "the wage of sin is death." This has application both in the secular world and the eternal world. Sin causes both earthly death, and death in terms of separation from God (which leads to Hell).

But what of those who do not believe in the christian god? I am a practicing wiccan and last I checked that was a 'sinful' religion. However I'm more gounded and at peace now then I ever was in the christian faith. Several things in the bible may have natural effects to those who choose to believe the bible. Ie. One of the ten commandments is 'thou shalt have no god before me' (correct me if I'm wrong) yet many people I know myself included place gods and goddesses above the christian god and we are happier and more alive then we were following the christian god. And another question is what use has a pagan of christian hell? I mean if I don't believe in the devil then I can't go to him when I die. I'm headed for the summerlands.

You believe homosexuality is a sin right, as that is expressed in the bible, thus you are against gays.
Not at all, as the OT rules were overridden (heh) by the coming of Christ. He, Himself, never talked about that and Paul seems to be talking about male temple postitutes. I see no issue with homosexuals unless they try to hot on me and won't take no for an answer (Happened once).

You probably dont belief in evolution, thus your against logic and science.
No, I don't believe in evolution because evolution is scientific fact. It would be like believing in gravity, which is rather silly. I accept evolution as the accepted theory for the devlopment of the species on this planet (Not apperance, just the changes to). I see no inherant conflict against my faith as Christian.

Not to mention the fact you believe in god which flies in the face of logic by itself.
Got me there, but I would argue that everyone beileves in SOMETHING that flies in the face of logic, humanity needs to believe. We always have.

If these arent accurate about you I apologize in advance,but Im going on best guesses. free feel to state otherwise.
Well, you're doing your best to prove my point that often times that all Christians are painted with the same brush here when that's really wrong.

You strongly worship Science I suppose. I'm not sure there is anything in QED that disproves God and scientists are not exempt from the need for God. Christ did say that one of the reasons he came as a man was so that people who can see could be made blind, and that the blind could see.

Beware of this trap. I'm praying for you.
Not Science, the Scientific Method. Nothing in QED says there is no God, but, as Lagrange said to Napoleon, "Sir, I had no need of that hypothosis."
As far as the "need for God" that you mention, it seems to me to be more a fear of "I don't know," a phrase with which I am very comfortable. As for Christ's reasons for coming (all jokes re: the Code aside), huh?
Thanks again (again) for praying for me! :fluffle:

Not at all, as the OT rules were overridden (heh) by the coming of Christ. He, Himself, never talked about that and Paul seems to be talking about male temple postitutes. I see no issue with homosexuals unless they try to hot on me and won't take no for an answer (Happened once).

Nervun, the temple prostitutes thing is just made up by the very small branch of liberal Christians (i.e. Unitarians, Episcopalians, etc.) that doesn't like what Scripture says. But I appreciate your POV. I'll pray for you.

Not Science, the Scientific Method. Nothing in QED says there is no God, but, as Lagrange said to Napoleon, "Sir, I had no need of that hypothosis."
As far as the "need for God" that you mention, it seems to me to be more a fear of "I don't know," a phrase with which I am very comfortable. As for Christ's reasons for coming (all jokes re: the Code aside), huh?
Thanks again (again) for praying for me! :fluffle:

I don't think the vast majority of Christians are Christian to get explainations for the unknown. Even though what we do here is pretty much worthless to God, a Christian might say that the main purpose is to offer thanks and praise to God for all he has given us.

I'll pray, even with your advanced knowledge of Astronomy, Quantum Electrodynamics, as well as String Theory, you might find a space for God in your life.

Nervun, the temple prostitutes thing is just made up by the very small branch of liberal Christians (i.e. Unitarians, Episcopalians, etc.) that doesn't like what Scripture says. But I appreciate your POV. I'll pray for you.
This has nothing to do with what you said, C&T, but I thought I'd mention another good book, written by a Christian!
"The Prophet," by Kahlil Gibran. Good stuff, Maynard!

Nervun, the temple prostitutes thing is just made up by the very small branch of liberal Christians (i.e. Unitarians, Episcopalians, etc.) that doesn't like what Scripture says. But I appreciate your POV. I'll pray for you.

your condescending attitude is the kind of thing that gives good Christians a bad name. Besides, your judgements are not very Christian like at all.

Nervun, the temple prostitutes thing is just made up by the very small branch of liberal Christians (i.e. Unitarians, Episcopalians, etc.) that doesn't like what Scripture says. But I appreciate your POV. I'll pray for you.
We have been arguing over the Bible for centuries now. I support the arguments that point to temple prostitutes as it makes sense to me and because I am dependant upon Bible scholars as I can't read Greek or Hebrew (nor really want to).

I still see no contradiction.

My family actually has a birthday party for Jesus. Complete with cake and ice cream. We don't add a candle for each year though. Fire hazard, ya know?

The Catholic side of my family does the same thing every Christmas. We even sing "Happy Birthday, Baby Jesus." I think it's very cute. :)

To the OP: I'm not a Christian, but I heartily agree that it's silly to act as if all Christians are clones of Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson. Most Christians, like most [Insert Group Name Here] are perfectly ordinary, reasonably nice people. Generalizations are decidedly silly things.

This has nothing to do with what you said, C&T, but I thought I'd mention another good book, written by a Christian!
"The Prophet," by Kahlil Gibran. Good stuff, Maynard!

I freaking LOVE Kahlil Gibran, especially "The Prophet"

damn good stuff for all Maynards!

Right. Does a friend giving you whispered advice constitute a breach of your free will?

Only if he dares me to something stupid. Because he knows I'm going to have to. :)

I don't think the vast majority of Christians are Christian to get explainations for the unknown. Even though what we do here is pretty much worthless to God, a Christian might say that the main purpose is to offer thanks and praise to God for all he has given us.

I'll pray, even with your advanced knowledge of Astronomy, Quantum Electrodynamics, as well as String Theory, you might find a space for God in your life.

Not to be rude. (that is not my intention and I am sorry if it comes across as such) However not everyone needs to find room for any god in their life. There are quite a few happy athiests out there who do not need the comfort that religion gives. I just happen to find it impolite to wish someone would find god or continue to pray for them when you have already done so and they have thanked you politely and have thus moved on. Now sorry for the interjection it's just a pet peeve of mine.

your condescending attitude is the kind of thing that gives good Christians a bad name. Besides, your judgements are not very Christian like at all.

Sumamba, I'm deeply sorry. But I can't let error go unchecked. Being faithful also means holding fidelity to the Word. There are many requirements in Christianity that aren't always fun all the time, some require a lot of work. While I realize you feel deeply for homosexuals, the issue with homosexuality is that it is not something that you can't control, like race or sex. If you feel you are homosexual, you can still live according to God's Word, by sacrificing your own personal pleasure for the greater glory of God.

I'm pray for our reconcilation.

I don't think the vast majority of Christians are Christian to get explainations for the unknown. Even though what we do here is pretty much worthless to God, a Christian might say that the main purpose is to offer thanks and praise to God for all he has given us.

I'll pray, even with your advanced knowledge of Astronomy, Quantum Electrodynamics, as well as String Theory, you might find a space for God in your life.
It is not ignorance which is bliss, so much as ignorance of one's ignorance.

Sumamba, I'm deeply sorry. But I can't let error go unchecked. Being faithful also means holding fidelity to the Word. There are many requirements in Christianity that aren't always fun all the time, some require a lot of work. While I realize you feel deeply for homosexuals, the issue with homosexuality is that it is not something that you can't control, like race or sex. If you feel you are homosexual, you can still live according to God's Word, by sacrificing your own personal pleasure for the greater glory of God.

I'm pray for our reconcilation.

Quick question. Which version of the bible are you going by? The original or the king james version? Because truly if you are going by the king james version then it is not god's word at all. King James had the bible rewritten to suit him which does not show fidelity to the Word or the sacrafice of his pleasure for the greater glory of your god. However I am sure in his own way he felt he was faithful.

Religion is something that must be felt by the person who is faithful. You have a right to believe what you wish however do not be consendening to those who find their own path to their salvation.

Quick question. Which version of the bible are you going by? The original or the king james version? Because truly if you are going by the king james version then it is not god's word at all. King James had the bible rewritten to suit him which does not show fidelity to the Word or the sacrafice of his pleasure for the greater glory of your god. However I am sure in his own way he felt he was faithful.

Religion is something that must be felt by the person who is faithful. You have a right to believe what you wish however do not be consendening to those who find their own path to their salvation.

I personally don't mind the condescention. I think it's cute! ;)

Not to be rude. (that is not my intention and I am sorry if it comes across as such) However not everyone needs to find room for any god in their life. There are quite a few happy athiests out there who do not need the comfort that religion gives. I just happen to find it impolite to wish someone would find god or continue to pray for them when you have already done so and they have thanked you politely and have thus moved on. Now sorry for the interjection it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Yes, but the vast majority of Christians would argue that it isn't for their own personal comfort that they worship God, but it is a duty to give thanks for the blessings we have received and live our lives for the greater glory of our Creator.

For example, even if you don't need to know about the origins of Man or even if you don't want personal comfort, your advanced scientific mind is something that you owe to the ultimate glory of God. So, praying that you might be able to use your intelligent mind for the betterment of your fellowman and for God's glory would be a worthy prayer.

Yes, but the vast majority of Christians would argue that it isn't for their own personal comfort that they worship God, but it is a duty to give thanks for the blessings we have received and live our lives for the greater glory of our Creator.

For example, even if you don't need to know about the origins of Man or even if you don't want personal comfort, your advanced scientific mind is something that you owe to the ultimate glory of God. So, praying that you might be able to use your intelligent mind for the betterment of your fellowman and for God's glory would be a worthy prayer.

Which would indeed work for the 'majority' however I have a feeling very few of us here fall in that catagory. And so not all of us give thanks to your creator.

I also noticed how you used a tatic I have oft found when arguing with christians. You didn't answer my question.

Religion is something that must be felt by the person who is faithful. You have a right to believe what you wish however do not be consendening to those who find their own path to their salvation.

Many people of faith believe in objective truth. In fact, I'm not even sure if it would be worth the time to pray if it was only for a personal truth that varies for each person, because that would support your conclusion that there isn't really a God at all.

The Catholic side of my family does the same thing every Christmas. We even sing "Happy Birthday, Baby Jesus." I think it's very cute. :)

We just say "Jesus" rather than "Baby Jesus," but yes it's cute. :)

Sumamba, I'm deeply sorry. But I can't let error go unchecked. Being faithful also means holding fidelity to the Word. There are many requirements in Christianity that aren't always fun all the time, some require a lot of work. While I realize you feel deeply for homosexuals, the issue with homosexuality is that it is not something that you can't control, like race or sex. If you feel you are homosexual, you can still live according to God's Word, by sacrificing your own personal pleasure for the greater glory of God.

I'm pray for our reconcilation.


Why should someone control it? Homosexuals are just as God made them. Beautiful free thinking individuals who make the choice to follow their hearts and love who they love regardless of the pressures put on them to feel a different way. regardless of the dangers that come with homophobia.. I don't need to suppress my desires for men and women (my wife doesn't seem to mind either) to be close to the Universal Consciousness... that seems so utterly foriegn of a concept to me (even though i was raised catholic by my grandparents and Baptist by my mother - depending on who was taking care of me at the time - and I never felt anything spiritual about it). I feel closer to gawd daily these days. Going to church, or judging people don't do that for me. I do it by devoting my thoughts and love to Gahd. I do it by being the most loving giving person I can be to all my brothers and sisters around teh world (although I do slip up when i get angry).

We are all God my friend. See the light of God in your enemies eyes and you cannot judge them anymore.

Many people of faith believe in objective truth. In fact, I'm not even sure if it would be worth the time to pray if it was only for a personal truth that varies for each person, because that would support your conclusion that there isn't really a God at all.

Never once did I say there was no god. However just as it is your thought that there is only one path for everyone to take my religion preaches that each must find their own path. Which in the end makes sense because no two people have the same experiances or learn from them in the same way.

But again I never said there was no god. I happen to believe in one with his lovely wife the goddess who to me is mother of us all. How you drew the conclusion that I thought there was no god I do not know. But still you did not answer my question.

Why should someone control it? Homosexuals are just as God made them. Beautiful free thinking individuals who make the choice to follow their hearts and love who they love regardless of the pressures put on them to feel a different way. regardless of the dangers that come with homophobia.. I don't need to suppress my desires for men and women (my wife doesn't seem to mind either) to be close to the Universal Consciousness... that seems so utterly foriegn of a concept to me (even though i was raised catholic by my grandparents and Baptist by my mother - depending on who was taking care of me at the time - and I never felt anything spiritual about it). I feel closer to gawd daily these days. Going to church, or judging people don't do that for me. I do it by devoting my thoughts and love to Gahd. I do it by being the most loving giving person I can be to all my brothers and sisters around teh world (although I do slip up when i get angry).

We are all God my friend. See the light of God in your enemies eyes and you cannot judge them anymore.

beautifully said. May I steal your last statement and post it on a website of quotes?

Being a Christian, I am proud to be persecuted for my faith. In the Bible, Jesus was persecuted in the same way even unto death, he told us that those who follow him will be persecuted the same way. (Maybe not unto death, but knowing that He went through all of that just to save my guts is what allows me to tolerate mere negative accusations and not whine about it) Atheists want to say something? please do so, but it will only proove to me that you are all the more interested in my beliefs, no matter how much you say you disbelieve it.

Never once did I say there was no god. However just as it is your thought that there is only one path for everyone to take my religion preaches that each must find their own path. Which in the end makes sense because no two people have the same experiances or learn from them in the same way.

But again I never said there was no god. I happen to believe in one with his lovely wife the goddess who to me is mother of us all. How you drew the conclusion that I thought there was no god I do not know. But still you did not answer my question.

I told my wifes very Catholic mother that I am not religious at all and she later asked me why I don't believe in God. lol

I said I do, I just follow any religions. I feel Go directly and let my heart guide me. She was happy that I at least like the teachings of Christ.

Even though she is very religious and her other sons-in-law are as well she calls me her favorite son-in-law. awwwwwwwww :p

We are all God my friend. See the light of God in your enemies eyes and you cannot judge them anymore.

There is a difference between an enemy and someone who denies the moral law even exists. You are a good person, but if you want to follow God, then you can't just void the Scripture that you don't like. It's tough to follow God completely, and only a few actually do. I'm not sure I even follow it all the time. However, I do acknowledge the goodness of God's Word, and I won't dare amend it to fit my own personal desires.

This is similar for people who don't follow traditional sexuality, it just requires committment and work, and anyone with a little faith and committment can re-direct their desires to God's holy purposes.

beautifully said. May I steal your last statement and post it on a website of quotes?

sure - I'd be honored to be quoted.

I told my wifes very Catholic mother that I am not religious at all and she later asked me why I don't believe in God. lol

I said I do, I just follow any religions. I feel Go directly and let my heart guide me. She was happy that I at least like the teachings of Christ.

Even though she is very religious and her other sons-in-law are as well she calls me her favorite son-in-law. awwwwwwwww :p

probably because you are a free thinker and will find your own path. Bravo.

There is a difference between an enemy and someone who denies the moral law even exists. You are a good person, but if you want to follow God, then you can't just void the Scripture that you don't like. It's tough to follow God completely, and only a few actually do. I'm not sure I even follow it all the time. However, I do acknowledge the goodness of God's Word, and I won't dare amend it to fit my own personal desires.

This is similar for people who don't follow traditional sexuality, it just requires committment and work, and anyone with a little faith and committment can re-direct their desires to God's holy purposes.

Much like how with a little faith and committment you could come up with something that didn't sound like you were trying to convert those of us here who are non-christians?

There is a difference between an enemy and someone who denies the moral law even exists. You are a good person, but if you want to follow God, then you can't just void the Scripture that you don't like. It's tough to follow God completely, and only a few actually do. I'm not sure I even follow it all the time. However, I do acknowledge the goodness of God's Word, and I won't dare amend it to fit my own personal desires.

This is similar for people who don't follow traditional sexuality, it just requires committment and work, and anyone with a little faith and committment can re-direct their desires to God's holy purposes.

Aren't you the one who said that earthly matters are trivial to God? I'm getting confused here.

Anyway, maybe if I was a Christian that believed whatever people interpreted the bible to mean for me, then perhaps I would think that I needed to follow some Scripture and I will have eternal life with god, but fortunately I had a vision that shows me that I am already one with God and nothing can ever change that.

Aren't you the one who said that earthly matters are trivial to God? I'm getting confused here.

Anyway, maybe if I was a Christian that believed whatever people interpreted the bible to mean for me, then perhaps I would think that I needed to follow some Scripture and I will have eternal life with god, but fortunately I had a vision that shows me that I am already one with God and nothing can ever change that.

yeah what he said!


*appoligies for the previous rude post I ment to keep the temper in check but it slipped*

There is a difference between an enemy and someone who denies the moral law even exists. You are a good person, but if you want to follow God, then you can't just void the Scripture that you don't like. It's tough to follow God completely, and only a few actually do. I'm not sure I even follow it all the time. However, I do acknowledge the goodness of God's Word, and I won't dare amend it to fit my own personal desires.

This is similar for people who don't follow traditional sexuality, it just requires committment and work, and anyone with a little faith and committment can re-direct their desires to God's holy purposes.
I deny that moral law exists, outside of an electrochemical state in your brain. Someone made it up. That's okay, as far as it goes. All of society's rules are made up. The trick is to be flexible enough to change them every now and then, so they work better. For me, that means more personal freedom / responsibility, not the blind adherence to ideas that worked for someone else a couple thousand years ago. You're free to disagree, and to keep praying for me. Time to surf some porn and turn in. 'Night! :)

probably because you are a free thinker and will find your own path. Bravo.

yep, I have found my own path - I don't quote scripture to show what a holy person I am and how close to God I am. in fact I dont even Talk about god to anyone in my non-internet life unless they want to talk about it. I let my actions tell whatever story they want. People always project their beliefs on yrou actions anyway... you can never be seen objectively. i dont know why I went there.

yep, I have found my own path - I don't quote scripture to show what a holy person I am and how close to God I am. in fact I dont even Talk about god to anyone in my non-internet life unless they want to talk about it. I let my actions tell whatever story they want. People always project their beliefs on yrou actions anyway... you can never be seen objectively. i dont know why I went there.

yeah I know the feeling. I can never agree with anyone about the form the god or the goddess takes. Thus many of my friends, even those who share a religion with me, refuse to talk about god. Thankfully for my argumentitive nature the internet christians have not yet caught on and/or are just as argumentitive as I am.

yeah I know the feeling. I can never agree with anyone about the form the god or the goddess takes. Thus many of my friends, even those who share a religion with me, refuse to talk about god. Thankfully for my argumentitive nature the internet christians have not yet caught on and/or are just as argumentitive as I am.

ugh - religion and politics are not a great way to make friends if you have your own opinion on things. :D

Even though she is very religious and her other sons-in-law are as well she calls me her favorite son-in-law. awwwwwwwww :p
*Heh* Same boat, of course my soon to be mother-in-law is Buddhist, but it's all good.

yeah I know the feeling. I can never agree with anyone about the form the god or the goddess takes. Thus many of my friends, even those who share a religion with me, refuse to talk about god. Thankfully for my argumentitive nature the internet christians have not yet caught on and/or are just as argumentitive as I am.
*snort* BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Sorry, not at you... but I just think of the endless arguments around here and...

I guess you've found your spot. ;)

ugh - religion and politics are not a great way to make friends if you have your own opinion on things. :D

yeah which is why debate club hates me. Though I do have AN athiest right wing republican friend. We think that between the two of us we can find the perfect middle ground for governing the U.S. we balance eachother out.

*snort* BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Sorry, not at you... but I just think of the endless arguments around here and...

I guess you've found your spot. ;)


I feel so at home. My own little nich in the world :p
but that's it for me tonight. I need to be up in...3 hours. Night all.

There are exceptions to every rule. However, there is a hint to brainwashing in there as you admit, your mum did raise you vaugly Christian.
and who taught you your morals and how you should live? Your parents, teachers, relatives... all that can also be seen as brainwashing and indoctrination.

people here have put forth two claims. one, that it's shameful (to them anyway) to get their ideals of right and wrong from a "Book of Fairy Tales" and others say it's wrong (again, to them anyway) to be indoctrinated/brainwashed by their parents.

Thank you NERVUN.

intelligent and balanced.

I was getting tired of the trolly versions of these. ;)

as one of the horriable christianity bashers on this site I'd like to appoligize. I have nothing against christians personally or christianity in general. However I have an issue with people who hide behind the scriptures and think that just because they quoted a book I do not believe or follow I will change my mind because it is their god's word. And due to this I fight back accordingly. I have not seen people directly attack christians until after they make a directly religious statement in a secular thread or they go after someone else with the bible. In fact if bible quoting was banned on this forum (along with koran quoting, blatently jewish religious remarks and any other religious quotations or blatently religious arguments) no one would go after conservitive christians because of their christian ideals.true, but to be fair, not only should quoting from any religious text be banned, but quoting any law books, science books, newspapers...

or, you can just keep the rules as they stand now, no flaming, trolling or baiting. :)

I've been trying to say that for the whole time i've been on NS! But no one listens.

I've been trying to say that for the whole time i've been on NS! But no one listens.

I'm sorry did you say something?

I'm sorry did you say something?

What?

and who taught you your morals and how you should live? Your parents, teachers, relatives... all that can also be seen as brainwashing and indoctrination.

people here have put forth two claims. one, that it's shameful (to them anyway) to get their ideals of right and wrong from a "Book of Fairy Tales" and others say it's wrong (again, to them anyway) to be indoctrinated/brainwashed by their parents.
So basically your saying learning and gaining knowledge is brainwashing when thats just flat wrong. Parents teach and guide more than they brainwash. there is a difference between learning and brainwashing.

Not at all, as the OT rules were overridden (heh) by the coming of Christ. He, Himself, never talked about that and Paul seems to be talking about male temple postitutes. I see no issue with homosexuals unless they try to hot on me and won't take no for an answer (Happened once).
fair enough

No, I don't believe in evolution because evolution is scientific fact. It
would be like believing in gravity, which is rather silly.
so its fact but you still dont believe it? And whats wrong with believing to gravity, it can be tested and proved.
I accept evolution as the accepted theory for the devlopment of the species on this planet (Not apperance, just the changes to). I see no inherant conflict against my faith as Christian.

Well there is that part in the bible where it says the earth was created by god rather than it evolving, I would think that would be in conflict with your faith.

Got me there, but I would argue that everyone beileves in SOMETHING that flies in the face of logic, humanity needs to believe. We always have.
Perhaps society needs things to believe that are illogical but not me as an individual.

Well, you're doing your best to prove my point that often times that all Christians are painted with the same brush here when that's really wrong.
fair enough, that is a fault I suppose

I'm not sure the theory of evolution covers how the earth was created.

seems to me the people you mention were good people dispite being Christian, not because of it. to paraphrase that one quote, "there will always be good people who do good things, and evil people who do evil things, but it takes religion for good people to do evil things." I know its not the quote but you get the idea.
Mother Teresa helped the sick despite being Christian? Her work was inspired by Jesus. As were JPII's campaigns for peace.

So basically your saying learning and gaining knowledge is brainwashing when thats just flat wrong. Parents teach and guide more than they brainwash. there is a difference between learning and brainwashing.
nope, I'm saying that people who argue against Christians tend (not always) to use the argument "it's sad that you need a book to tell you how to live" while others present the argument "but you have been brainwashed by your parents..."

Fairy Tales (Little Red Riding Hood, Hansel and Gretel et. al.) were used to teach children how to behave (through fear mostly.... those original tales were horrific.) nowdays, most children books teach such lessons subtly, sharing, being nice, playing well with others. yet that seems ok, until you add in the posibility of religion being behind it, then people start screaming "Brainwashing!" "Book of Lies" basically, a double standard.

It shouldn't matter where one gets their rules to live by.

Probably declaring open season on myself, but what the hey?

In defense of Christians

In the timeless NS General battle, someone will wander on, read an anti-Christian(ity) thread and post about how everyone who doesn't believe is a big meanie. This is equivalent of waving a red flag at a bull as it excites the usual suspects to come in and start yet another debate about how evil Christianity has been/is, religious intolerance, gays and the Bible, evolution, the existence of God and the logical problems with that, and possibly a comment about tacos should LG wander by. The op of said post usually drives him or her self into a frenzy trying to defend his or her religion long with the usual Christian defenders on the forum who leap to battle. Eventually said thread is closed by the Mods for flaming.

This isn't one of those.

This is in defense of Christians, not Christianity, not religiously inspired intolerance, not asking if God exists, or if we were intelligently constructed by blind watch making monkeys or what have you.

Simply put, I see a lot of the legitimate attacks on religious fanatics painting all Christians with one broad brush. This is, of course, a fallacy. There is also another point I would like to point out, while religion has done some incredibly BAD things, it has also done some incredibly GOOD things as well. Condemn all Christians and you condemn Mother Teresa who's work with the poor in India has become a definition for saintly behavior (which in and of itself was taken from the actions of religiously inspired people). Point out that some of the greatest bigots in history were Christian, and you ignore the thousands of Christians who work the world over in places that are not safe and comfortable to bring water, food, medicine and teaching due to religious motivation and a commandment from Jesus that we should give our shirt to those who have none.

You cast Pope John Paul II (disagree with his stances as you may, but can you really say he did not work towards peace and effected it in many places) as the same as Fred Philips.

You paint the Rev. Dr. Martian Luther King Jr., who had a strong Christian message in his march for equality; with the same brush you quickly tar those who effected the inquisition.

I have often argued that Islam and most Muslims MUST be held separate from the actions of a few deranged individuals who kill in its name. It seems obvious to me that it is the work of man, and not the religion, that has perverted a divine work, and one that has inspired many to do great good.

I feel Christianity is the same. There has been a lot of good done, and still done, in its name. The majority of Christians try to live a good life and use its guidance to do just that.

So what I ask is the next time we have another "Christians suck" or "Non-Christians suck" thread, that it be considered that Christians as a group include people like St. Jude's Children's Hospital who are working towards a cure for childhood cancer and provides treatment for children for free because of religious beliefs. It includes the Salvation Army who has been feeding the poor and homeless because of Christian beliefs. It includes a lot of people beyond the fundies.

Does this mean I ask that you not attack Christianity or some of the sillier and inflexible beliefs? No, not at all. An unexamined faith is worthless and anyone inspiring towards heaven had better damn well check (and be checked) that their feet haven't been dragging in the mud, but I do ask to remember that not all Christians are those whom you are attacking.

Ok, let it begin.

Thank you. At last someone who has posted about Christians with some sense of objectivity. This sort of reaffirms my faith in mankind.

*applauds*

so its fact but you still dont believe it? And whats wrong with believing to gravity, it can be tested and proved.


Heh. That's his point, I think - one doesn't need to "believe in" things that are scientifically falsifiable. "Belief" as a concept makes little sense when applied to things that are simply unambiguously true, at least outside the realm of epistemological discussion. Thus, I don't "believe in" gravity, because gravity doesn't really care whether I believe in it or not; it's going to keep pulling me towards massive objects either way. :)

nope, I'm saying that people who argue against Christians tend (not always) to use the argument "it's sad that you need a book to tell you how to live" while others present the argument "but you have been brainwashed by your parents..."

Fairy Tales (Little Red Riding Hood, Hansel and Gretel et. al.) were used to teach children how to behave (through fear mostly.... those original tales were horrific.) nowdays, most children books teach such lessons subtly, sharing, being nice, playing well with others. yet that seems ok, until you add in the posibility of religion being behind it, then people start screaming "Brainwashing!" "Book of Lies" basically, a double standard.

It shouldn't matter where one gets their rules to live by.
Until people start killing each other over which book to use :rolleyes:

Until people start killing each other over which book to use :rolleyes:
then they are not following their morals if they will "kill" over a book.

or they interpret their morals very differently than others.

I will take you up on your offer and respect your request. Thank you for the invitation to do so.

First question: Can Christians aspire to develop the life condition of Jesus, or would such a life condition be so far removed from a human being that it can only be admired rather than persued?

It must be pursued, otherwise Christian you are not. Admiration is not sufficient.

Sure perfection will never be obtained but that should not keep one from progreesing Towards perfection.

then they are not following their morals if they will "kill" over a book.

or they interpret their morals very differently than others.
I have often wondered how they justify such things internally. I hope I never know.

-snip OP-
Thanks, NERVUN. :)

I'm not sure I have the heart to read the rest of the thread now, knowing what's probably in it.

So I think I'll leave it at this and not look again.

It must be pursued, otherwise Christian you are not. Admiration is not sufficient.

Sure perfection will never be obtained but that should not keep one from progreesing Towards perfection.


this is also something I wonder about because there are Christians who say that noone can attain enlightenment like Jesus and be as close to God or whatever (I can't remember how it was put exactly) - do you believe that enlightenment is possible thru Christianity? or possible at all? or is it merely a set of rules to live by?

this is also something I wonder about because there are Christians who say that noone can attain enlightenment like Jesus and be as close to God or whatever (paraphrasing) - do you believe that enlightenment is possible thru Christianity? or possible at all? or is it merely a set of rules to live by?
This made me think of a quote. Dunno who said it tho.
"It is much easier to seek enlightenment once you have already been enlightened."

I have often wondered how they justify such things internally. I hope I never know.unfortunatly, I do... more of a habit of playing devil's advocate and my willingness to look at both sides of the issue.

it is sad to use something that teaches love as an exscuse for abuse and hatred. :(

this is also something I wonder about because there are Christians who say that noone can attain enlightenment like Jesus and be as close to God or whatever (I can't remember how it was put exactly) - do you believe that enlightenment is possible thru Christianity? or possible at all? or is it merely a set of rules to live by?

Yes enlightenment is possible through Christ. Perfection will not be attained until after death.

(remember death is not the end all, just a transition)

Yes enlightenment is possible through Christ. Perfection will not be attained until after death.

(remember death is not the end all, just a transition)

Wait are you calling enlightenment perfection or saying you can be enlightened while alive but not perfect until dead?

depends on your definition of enlightenment. :)

if enlightened mean perfect, then no.

Christians, omitting the evangelical morons who feel compelled to extend their "love" forcibly upon me, are generally altruictic fellows who genuinely attempt to follow the rules of christ. The defamation of Christianity is motivated not by the majority of mild, entirely amenable believers, but by the evangelical, fundamentalist and militant minority who pervert their scriptures to effect their own prejudices.

depends on your definition of enlightenment. :)

if enlightened mean perfect, then no.


Well I guess enlightenment isn't a Christian term anyway is it? But I think of Jesus' connection with God as enlightenment (conscious access to the universal consciousness). Can a human attain this according to the Christian religion?

What's your definition of enlightenment?

Kay, just got back from work.

Where was I... Ah yes, Lunatic Goofballs.


For the sake of argument, let's assume you were urged to put your seatbelt on by a higher power. How do you know it was Jesus or god? How do you know it wasn't Allah or Buddha or Vishnu? And let's assume it was, in fact, the Christian god - how do you know he doesn't want you to be a Methodist? Or a Mormon? Or a Jesuit? Or a Jahovas Witness?

Point is, you seem to just go to Christianity by default with no direction towards it in the first place.

so its fact but you still dont believe it? And whats wrong with believing to gravity, it can be tested and proved.
You mis-read what I had written, so let me try this again. I accept evolution as a truth. It has been tested, worked on, and is a very soild theory (not proven, but then again nothing in science is EVER "proven" just made very, very sure). Belief as I am using the word means to accept something that cannot be proven or has not been proven. Or will still be maintained even in the face of evidence to the contrary. That's why I don't believe in evolution, because that goes against science. Nor do I believe in gravity because, again, if someone had good evidence that gravity was false, I would have to re-think it. I acknowledge them as the truths they are and go on. So, using the word the way you are, yes, I believe in them, but I try to seperate ackowledging truths and believing in Truths.

Well there is that part in the bible where it says the earth was created by god rather than it evolving, I would think that would be in conflict with your faith.
Well, one, evolution doesn't address the creation of the planet nor the origin of life, just how it has changed. Two, what is time to God?

Perhaps society needs things to believe that are illogical but not me as an individual.
Really? Do you believe in equality and justice? How about mercy? All of these are very illogical when looked at. And yet... we believe in them, we need to believe in them.

Thank you NERVUN.

intelligent and balanced.

I was getting tired of the trolly versions of these. ;)
You're welcome, I was feeling the same way, that's why I made this.

Thanks, NERVUN. :)

I'm not sure I have the heart to read the rest of the thread now, knowing what's probably in it.

So I think I'll leave it at this and not look again.
Actually it hasn't been that bad. I thought I was going to get blasted from both sides but everyone's been respectful for the most part.

Odd for General, I know. ;)

Actually it hasn't been that bad. I thought I was going to get blasted from both sides but everyone's been respectful for the most part.

Odd for General, I know. ;)

Maybe they realised that you're right, but can't think of a good reason why?

I've had one or two conversations with people at uni who started out blasting christians, but were very quickly made to eat their words, and appologised (hell, in one case, an antheist helped me with my case)

Probably declaring open season on myself, but what the hey?

In defense of Christians

In the timeless NS General battle, someone will wander on, read an anti-Christian(ity) thread and post about how everyone who doesn't believe is a big meanie. This is equivalent of waving a red flag at a bull as it excites the usual suspects to come in and start yet another debate about how evil Christianity has been/is, religious intolerance, gays and the Bible, evolution, the existence of God and the logical problems with that, and possibly a comment about tacos should LG wander by. The op of said post usually drives him or her self into a frenzy trying to defend his or her religion long with the usual Christian defenders on the forum who leap to battle. Eventually said thread is closed by the Mods for flaming.

This isn't one of those.

This is in defense of Christians, not Christianity, not religiously inspired intolerance, not asking if God exists, or if we were intelligently constructed by blind watch making monkeys or what have you.

Simply put, I see a lot of the legitimate attacks on religious fanatics painting all Christians with one broad brush. This is, of course, a fallacy. There is also another point I would like to point out, while religion has done some incredibly BAD things, it has also done some incredibly GOOD things as well. Condemn all Christians and you condemn Mother Teresa who's work with the poor in India has become a definition for saintly behavior (which in and of itself was taken from the actions of religiously inspired people). Point out that some of the greatest bigots in history were Christian, and you ignore the thousands of Christians who work the world over in places that are not safe and comfortable to bring water, food, medicine and teaching due to religious motivation and a commandment from Jesus that we should give our shirt to those who have none.

You cast Pope John Paul II (disagree with his stances as you may, but can you really say he did not work towards peace and effected it in many places) as the same as Fred Philips.

You paint the Rev. Dr. Martian Luther King Jr., who had a strong Christian message in his march for equality; with the same brush you quickly tar those who effected the inquisition.

I have often argued that Islam and most Muslims MUST be held separate from the actions of a few deranged individuals who kill in its name. It seems obvious to me that it is the work of man, and not the religion, that has perverted a divine work, and one that has inspired many to do great good.

I feel Christianity is the same. There has been a lot of good done, and still done, in its name. The majority of Christians try to live a good life and use its guidance to do just that.

So what I ask is the next time we have another "Christians suck" or "Non-Christians suck" thread, that it be considered that Christians as a group include people like St. Jude's Children's Hospital who are working towards a cure for childhood cancer and provides treatment for children for free because of religious beliefs. It includes the Salvation Army who has been feeding the poor and homeless because of Christian beliefs. It includes a lot of people beyond the fundies.

Does this mean I ask that you not attack Christianity or some of the sillier and inflexible beliefs? No, not at all. An unexamined faith is worthless and anyone inspiring towards heaven had better damn well check (and be checked) that their feet haven't been dragging in the mud, but I do ask to remember that not all Christians are those whom you are attacking.

Ok, let it begin.

I normally do not quote long posts nor read them but this is one of the best posts I have seen on NS.

*bows to NERVUN*

I'm christian. Do I strike any of you as the typical christian?

*munches on a taco*

We're not all like Pat Robertson.

Luckily....Robertson is in an extreme minority.