NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14926060.htm

Here's the situation - you're the local prosecutor, and you get to decide whether or not to charge the mother with a crime.

Do you charge her with a crime? If so, which crime, and what kind of penalty would you seek?

A 5-month-old baby died in a minivan Wednesday after the mother apparently forgot to drop the child off at day care.

The tragedy was discovered about 5:30 p.m. outside the Wonder Years 2 day care. The baby's mother stopped at the day care after work to pick up the child and was told by staff that the baby had not been dropped off. She realized then that the baby had been in her minivan all day.

"The mother had forgotten to drop off the child at day care in the morning," said Curt Kreun, owner of Wonder Years 2. "She actually came in the building to pick up the child and then realized what had happened."

The child was in a car seat in the back of the vehicle, according to Sgt. Jeff Burgess of the Grand Forks Police Department. A Wonder Years 2 staff member made the 911 call, according to Kreun.

Staff members had taken the baby out of the van and started CPR before the ambulance arrived. Kreun said he reached the scene about 6 p.m. and emergency personnel already had gotten the word from Altru to cease resuscitation.

"The child had probably passed away a while before she got to the day care," Kreun said.

I'd charge her with negligence.

It seems like an honest mistake. The mother lost her kid over her absentmindedness. Bringing her up on charges wouldn't accomplish anything. I would like to see her take a drug test or something though, and if it came up positive then maybe she should be brought up on charges.

How could you be that absentminded about your own child?!

Lock her up...Christ, what an idiot.

no i wouldnt prosecute a grieving mother for a terrible accident. she did nothing willingly to harm her child.

i would use this sad story as a vehicle for suggesting to all daycare providers and parents who use them to set up a system where if a child who is expected isnt dropped off at the regular time, they call the parents to make sure that something like this hasnt happened.

Being a parent I connot comprehend how a mother could do this. There is absolutely no way that a reasonable adult human can 'forget the baby' in the car.

She should be prosecuted for manslaughter - which is what it is. She lost her child, yes, but apparently she gave a shit anyway - or how else did she forget to drop the child off?

I'd charge her with negligence.

Ditto.

Being a parent I connot comprehend how a mother could do this. There is absolutely no way that a reasonable adult human can 'forget the baby' in the car.

She should be prosecuted for manslaughter - which is what it is. She lost her child, yes, but apparently she gave a shit anyway - or how else did she forget to drop the child off?
If she forgot to drop the child off but thought she did it is possible the mother has developing mental problems. At most it is negligence, manslaughter would be ridiculous.

Being a parent I connot comprehend how a mother could do this. There is absolutely no way that a reasonable adult human can 'forget the baby' in the car.

She should be prosecuted for manslaughter - which is what it is. She lost her child, yes, but apparently she gave a shit anyway - or how else did she forget to drop the child off?
well you might consider that if her poor baby was 5 months old when it died, the mother hasnt had a full nights sleep in 6 months and even the little sleep she has had has been at best a couple of hours at a time.


exhausted mother, same routine every day, all it takes is a phone call at the wrong time to throw her off enough to wak away from the car without the baby.

leaving that baby in the car wasnt a matter of "not giving a shit" she didnt leave it because it was too much trouble to take her baby into the building. it was a tragic accident that she is going to have to live with for the rest of her life. jail time isnt going to punish her more nor will it deter future absentmindedness.

not enough information given. I will reserve judgement untill after the investigation by the police was done.

but with the given information, Negligent Homocide.

Being a parent I connot comprehend how a mother could do this. There is absolutely no way that a reasonable adult human can 'forget the baby' in the car.

She should be prosecuted for manslaughter - which is what it is. She lost her child, yes, but apparently she gave a shit anyway - or how else did she forget to drop the child off?

I wonder if you are being completely fair.

As a parent, I can admit to not remembering my 7 year old was in the frontroom playing on the computer. I thought she was in her room, watching TV.

I wonder if you are being completely fair.

As a parent, I can admit to not remembering my 7 year old was in the frontroom playing on the computer. I thought she was in her room, watching TV.

When my daughter was 3, I used to take her to day care myself.

I was terrified that I would forget her, and drive straight to work (day care was on the way). So I made a habit of checking, checking, checking, and rechecking at every step of the journey.

Even then, I would still check after I got to work. I know that anyone can forget something like that.

If stupidity was a crime, the prisons could not possibly hold all the guilty.

well you might consider that if her poor baby was 5 months old when it died, the mother hasnt had a full nights sleep in 6 months and even the little sleep she has had has been at best a couple of hours at a time.


exhausted mother, same routine every day, all it takes is a phone call at the wrong time to throw her off enough to wak away from the car without the baby.

leaving that baby in the car wasnt a matter of "not giving a shit" she didnt leave it because it was too much trouble to take her baby into the building. it was a tragic accident that she is going to have to live with for the rest of her life. jail time isnt going to punish her more nor will it deter future absentmindedness.

I was careful to post that I am a parent. I have been through the tiredness and sleepless nights etc. I can assure you that you do not, no matter how tired you are, forget about your child if you care about it.

What I meant by not giving a shit, was not that she deliberately left the child in the car (that would be murder), but that she didn't care enough to place the baby's welfare first.

If you want to claim that the mother was so exhausted that she could not have remembered the child, then it is still manslaughter for being so stupid as to be in a position of responsability in that condition. If she could not remember her own child, what the hell was she doing driving?

Sorry, but the excusesw you are making for her simply do not hold water. It is manslaughter at the very minimum. What sentence is to be imposed if she is convicted is another matter. That would have to be at the discretion of the judge, who would know much more about the circumstances than I do.

I also say not enough information. There are a few possibilities of what happened here:
1) Tragic accident. I wouldn't want to prosecute that. She has enough trauma to deal with, and trying her would do nothing.
2) Deliberate, but played off as an accident to avoid charges, etc. I would definitely want to prosecute that.

...

And so on. Those are the main ones I can think of (surely someone else can think of others?), and obviously, what happened changes what I'd want to do. :/

When my daughter was 3, I used to take her to day care myself.

I was terrified that I would forget her, and drive straight to work (day care was on the way). So I made a habit of checking, checking, checking, and rechecking at every step of the journey.

Even then, I would still check after I got to work. I know that anyone can forget something like that.

I have a history of Obsessive/Compulsive... believe me, you can't teach me anything about checking, checking and double-checking. :)

It's not just a matter of forgetfullness - as Ashmoria pointed out, exhaustion and distraction could both be huge factors. As could any number of smaller factors from just plain being ill, to mental aberration or trauma.

Too little information, here.

I'd tell her to get her tubes tied.

I wonder if you are being completely fair.

As a parent, I can admit to not remembering my 7 year old was in the frontroom playing on the computer. I thought she was in her room, watching TV.

A 7 year old is a very different matter to a 5 month old. The 7 year old does not need your continual attention while in your care. If you had gone out for the day and left your 7 year old at home alone, then you would have some kind of problem, but thinking that they are watching TV in one room when they are playing in another is not forgetting about them, is it?

I've heard of this happening before. In one case, the parents would go together, the husband was dropped off at the metro and the mother dropped off the kid. That day, the mother stayed home, and he was in a rush, parked, went to the metro as usual and forgot about the child. Same outcome. Crazy shit can happen...and this kind of thing is truly horrible. They'll have to live with this the rest of their lives...punishment enough I think.

(I'm assuming there was no intent to harm the child etc.)

I was careful to post that I am a parent. I have been through the tiredness and sleepless nights etc. I can assure you that you do not, no matter how tired you are, forget about your child if you care about it.


So - when I said earlier, that I didn't remember which room my daughter was in - you say there is no other option, I simply don't care?

I have a history of Obsessive/Compulsive... believe me, you can't teach me anything about checking, checking and double-checking. :)

It's not just a matter of forgetfullness - as Ashmoria pointed out, exhaustion and distraction could both be huge factors. As could any number of smaller factors from just plain being ill, to mental aberration or trauma.

Too little information, here.

The problem I had is that every day I had the same routine. The same stops, the same time, etc. So I felt that with each day running into the next, I couldn't be sure if I really remembered to drop her off, or was I remembering something from the day before.

So I got anal about the checking. I remember running out to the parking garage after I got to work to just check one more time.

I don't think you understand the differences between different crimes.
The stretch that would have to be made for this to qualify as manslaughter, and what's more, get he convicted of manslaughter, isn't worth making.

Any single thing paired with any other thing could easily explain what happened: extreme, continued lack of sleep; rushing to not be late to work; quiet child; missing a few days of a routine.

At best, this is negligent homicide, and most of it would be non-jailtime.

but thinking that they are watching TV in one room when they are playing in another is not forgetting about them, is it?
Did you even read past "left the baby in the car"? She obviously thought she dropped the child off as exmplified by her going by the daycare to pick it up.

So - when I said earlier, that I didn't remember which room my daughter was in - you say there is no other option, I simply don't care?

See above. :)

They are not, in the least, comparable situations.

Not everyone is as wonderful as you, AB.

Ack, anyway...it's terrible. I feel horrible for the family. *exits thread*

I would file the charges "neglect" in combination with "involuntary manslaughter".

Now, usually when something tragic like this happens in Germany, people don't spend time in jail but are free on probation and usually get lots of counseling.

Those charges have to be filed, after all a person has died.

I don't think you understand the differences between different crimes.
The stretch that would have to be made for this to qualify as manslaughter, and what's more, get he convicted of manslaughter, isn't worth making.

Any single thing paired with any other thing could easily explain what happened: extreme, continued lack of sleep; rushing to not be late to work; quiet child; missing a few days of a routine.

At best, this is negligent homicide, and most of it would be non-jailtime.

It may be that I am working on a background of the British legal system, where negligent homicide is manslaughter.

Causing, without intent to do so, the death of a person - that is manslaughter. If you have different grades of unintentional homicide, then fine - it can be a lesser one than manslaughter (I am not used to such a system).

A 7 year old is a very different matter to a 5 month old. The 7 year old does not need your continual attention while in your care. If you had gone out for the day and left your 7 year old at home alone, then you would have some kind of problem, but thinking that they are watching TV in one room when they are playing in another is not forgetting about them, is it?

How is it different?

One assumes that the mother in question had no reason to believe that THIS day, of all days, she had not done exactly the same thing sh does every day.

She even went into the care centre LOOKING for her child. In her mind, then - the child WAS getting 'continual attention', because it was in daycare.

To the mother, then - her child was 'playing in one room', while she THOUGHT he/she was in another. Like I said... too little information to know WHY she reached that conclusion. Maybe her usually active baby was just very quiet that morning...

Not everyone is as wonderful as you, AB.

Ack, anyway...it's terrible. I feel horrible for the family. *exits thread*

Sin, are you trying to tell me that you could have forgotten a five month old that you are responsible for. I don't believe that you could have.

I was careful to post that I am a parent. I have been through the tiredness and sleepless nights etc. I can assure you that you do not, no matter how tired you are, forget about your child if you care about it.

What I meant by not giving a shit, was not that she deliberately left the child in the car (that would be murder), but that she didn't care enough to place the baby's welfare first.

If you want to claim that the mother was so exhausted that she could not have remembered the child, then it is still manslaughter for being so stupid as to be in a position of responsability in that condition. If she could not remember her own child, what the hell was she doing driving?

Sorry, but the excusesw you are making for her simply do not hold water. It is manslaughter at the very minimum. What sentence is to be imposed if she is convicted is another matter. That would have to be at the discretion of the judge, who would know much more about the circumstances than I do.
so you must think that every time an accident results in someone getting hurt, someone must go to jail for it?

brittney spears drops her baby on the floor, she should be in jail? my son stands up in the stroller and falls onto the sidewalk, i should go to jail? a child runs with scissors, falls on them and needs to go to the emergency room, the babysitter should go to jail?

mistakes happen. they sometimes have fatal results. this mother did nothing wrong on purpose. its not negligent to take your chld to day care. her absentmindedness was an ACCIDENT just as it would have been if she had dropped the baby taking it out of the car and the fall killed it.

its a bad thing that this baby died but its wrong to put a person in jail for an accident.

The problem I had is that every day I had the same routine. The same stops, the same time, etc. So I felt that with each day running into the next, I couldn't be sure if I really remembered to drop her off, or was I remembering something from the day before.

So I got anal about the checking. I remember running out to the parking garage after I got to work to just check one more time.

Me too, kind of. Except mine was working nights... so the days kind of blur anyway. Weekends have a way of sneaking up, when you work different hours to the waking world. I didn't run out to parking garages... but I did call the school. :)

It may be that I am working on a background of the British legal system, where negligent homicide is manslaughter.

Causing, without intent to do so, the death of a person - that is manslaughter.
There are always subtle differences in the manner and method that result in a difference of conviction and with that comes a difference of due to pay.

And regardless, you might want to email your name and address to the local prosecutor for that case, I'm sure they will want you on the jury as you are the only one around here so far that wants to hang her out to dry.

Sin, are you trying to tell me that you could have forgotten a five month old that you are responsible for. I don't believe that you could have.
YES

it could happen to anyone

the scariest thing about being a parent is knowing how a terrible accident could happen at anytime and take your child from you.

one moments inattention and the baby falls off the changing table. one moments inattention and the toddler runs into the street. one moments inattention and you run over your 5 year old playing in the driveway.

How is it different?

One assumes that the mother in question had no reason to believe that THIS day, of all days, she had not done exactly the same thing sh does every day.

She even went into the care centre LOOKING for her child. In her mind, then - the child WAS getting 'continual attention', because it was in daycare.

To the mother, then - her child was 'playing in one room', while she THOUGHT he/she was in another. Like I said... too little information to know WHY she reached that conclusion. Maybe her usually active baby was just very quiet that morning...

Yes we are lacking information, but as to how it is different -

The mother can not assume when she is dealing with a baby. She cannot assume anything at all. She has to check and double check. Why? Because the baby can not up and say "Mum - I'm still here" or "I'm thirsty" or whatever. It is not a case of the baby playing in a different room. It is a case of the mother not checking when she should have and had a duty of care to do so. Being too tired is no excuse - all parents are too tired but most dont kill their babies by leaving them in the car.


That she went later to the day care centre eliminates the possibility of murder (or she is very clever), but to put the baby in the car, and then drive to work without dropping the baby off is criminally negligent and led to the death of a person.

You would be prosecuted if you did it to a dog. Are you realuy suggesting that we value human babies less than we value our dogs?

Sin, are you trying to tell me that you could have forgotten a five month old that you are responsible for. I don't believe that you could have.

I don't know about Sin, but...
It's possible that you have an unusually good memory. Certainly no "undisturbed" *cough*notcrazy*cough* parent wants to forget about his/her child in that manner, but a number of them do, and occasionally, it results in fatal accidents like these. Your unusually good memory, mixed with your desire to not forget about your child, may have made you absolutely amazing, but it would be wrong to think that everyone will have the same exact experience as you. And I'd rather not have to pull out the psych terms to prove it! :D

so you must think that every time an accident results in someone getting hurt, someone must go to jail for it?

brittney spears drops her baby on the floor, she should be in jail? my son stands up in the stroller and falls onto the sidewalk, i should go to jail? a child runs with scissors, falls on them and needs to go to the emergency room, the babysitter should go to jail?

mistakes happen. they sometimes have fatal results. this mother did nothing wrong on purpose. its not negligent to take your chld to day care. her absentmindedness was an ACCIDENT just as it would have been if she had dropped the baby taking it out of the car and the fall killed it.

its a bad thing that this baby died but its wrong to put a person in jail for an accident.

An accident is when something unpredictable happens. A mother, not dropping her baby off and leaving it in the car to die is not an accident, it is negligence at the very least. If you look back through this thread you will see GK and Grave_n_Idle affirming that they became obsessive about making sure that the chilkd was OK. So did I, I am willing to bet that Sinuhue and Peechland and every other parent on NS will say the same. So why did this mother not check and double check like the rest of us?

Sure, she was tired, any parent is tired. But she had a duty of care and she failed in that duty - like it or not. The rest of us made sure that we did not fail - hence this mother did not care enough about her child to ensure its safety at an age when it is completely defenceless.

Call it an accident if you want, I don't.

I also say not enough information. There are a few possibilities of what happened here:
1) Tragic accident. I wouldn't want to prosecute that. She has enough trauma to deal with, and trying her would do nothing.
2) Deliberate, but played off as an accident to avoid charges, etc. I would definitely want to prosecute that.

...

And so on. Those are the main ones I can think of (surely someone else can think of others?), and obviously, what happened changes what I'd want to do. :/
of course it has to be investigated. there ARE times when a parent has been horribly negligent and should face criminal charges.

there are times here in new mexico where parents will leave their child in the car so they can go into the casino and gamble. i knew a couple who would leave their 5 year old in the back of the truck to sleep while they worked at the bar

some parents dont put their child into car seats or drive drunk with their kids in the car. those parents should rightfully face prosecution when their negligence kills their child (or even if nothing happens to the child by the authorities find out about it)

a terrible accident on the other hand, needs no prosecution, only an investigation.

I would file charges and see to it she is punished publicly to make an example. So that other parents will always remember that their children are their first priority.
Why? Not because I want to punish her or angry at her etc. Just to remind people that they have priorities, responsibilities that they cant afford to deny.

YES

it could happen to anyone

the scariest thing about being a parent is knowing how a terrible accident could happen at anytime and take your child from you.

one moments inattention and the baby falls off the changing table. one moments inattention and the toddler runs into the street. one moments inattention and you run over your 5 year old playing in the driveway.

NO

It could not happen to anyone. We are not talking about a moment's inattention here, we are talking about someone not checking on the safety of their child for an extended period. Even if it is only five minutes from the day care center to her work, how did she not check? When she got out of the car, how did she not check?

I know what you mean about the fear of accidents, and this in itself makes you verify everything three, four or more times. But it didn't happen in this case. You say it could happen to you, I doubt that. Your very fear of it happening is what ensures that it won't. This women seems not to have had this concern - otherwise she would have checked, wouldn't she?

Yes we are lacking information, but as to how it is different -

The mother can not assume when she is dealing with a baby. She cannot assume anything at all. She has to check and double check. Why? Because the baby can not up and say "Mum - I'm still here" or "I'm thirsty" or whatever. It is not a case of the baby playing in a different room. It is a case of the mother not checking when she should have and had a duty of care to do so. Being too tired is no excuse - all parents are too tired but most dont kill their babies by leaving them in the car.


That she went later to the day care centre eliminates the possibility of murder (or she is very clever), but to put the baby in the car, and then drive to work without dropping the baby off is criminally negligent and led to the death of a person.

You would be prosecuted if you did it to a dog. Are you realuy suggesting that we value human babies less than we value our dogs?

I'm sitting here with my nine-month-old baby boy on my arm, as I type. I can't imagine forgetting him in the car... but I don't live in such a rose-tinted world that I believe I could never forget anything... which is WHY I double-check and triple-check. I know any legal sytem opinion would be irrelevent to me, if I did end up in that unfortunate circumstance. No one has a jail, a god or a hell, that could come close to the punishment I would already be suffering.

Was this mother criminally negligent? Or just negligent? Why didn't the daycare centre call her? My daughters' creche used to call if she wasn't there.

Were the daycare centre criminally negligent? Accessory to?

I don't mean to be insulting, but your parting shot doesn't deserve a response.

she did nothing willingly to harm her child.

You don't know that.

Laws only work when they're applied consistently. You have to charge her.

An accident is when something unpredictable happens. A mother, not dropping her baby off and leaving it in the car to die is not an accident, it is negligence at the very least. If you look back through this thread you will see GK and Grave_n_Idle affirming that they became obsessive about making sure that the chilkd was OK. So did I, I am willing to bet that Sinuhue and Peechland and every other parent on NS will say the same. So why did this mother not check and double check like the rest of us?

Sure, she was tired, any parent is tired. But she had a duty of care and she failed in that duty - like it or not. The rest of us made sure that we did not fail - hence this mother did not care enough about her child to ensure its safety at an age when it is completely defenceless.

Call it an accident if you want, I don't.

I didn't 'become' obsessive about it - I have a history of OCD.

That makes me atypical. I can't speak to the assumptions most people might make, everyday.

NO

It could not happen to anyone. We are not talking about a moment's inattention here, we are talking about someone not checking on the safety of their child for an extended period. Even if it is only five minutes from the day care center to her work, how did she not check? When she got out of the car, how did she not check?

I know what you mean about the fear of accidents, and this in itself makes you verify everything three, four or more times. But it didn't happen in this case. You say it could happen to you, I doubt that. Your very fear of it happening is what ensures that it won't. This women seems not to have had this concern - otherwise she would have checked, wouldn't she?

Carseats face away from the driver. She couldn't casually check... and she had no reason to do more than that.

Perhaps. Like I said - not enough information.

Wasn't it a van, anyway? That could totally change the seating arrangement and access to checking...

I didn't 'become' obsessive about it - I have a history of OCD.

That makes me atypical. I can't speak to the assumptions most people might make, everyday.

Haha! I wasn't insane when I thought that had an OCD feel to it rather than an overly-protective-parent feel to it!

Haha! I wasn't insane when I thought that had an OCD feel to it rather than an overly-protective-parent feel to it!

Indeed you were not. There IS an overprotective quality also... my children are one of the few things I 'allow' my OCD free-rein with. Everywhere else, I fight it.

My mom once forgot my brother under the table at a relative's house, i think my grandma's. Now granted, she remembered as her and my dad were walking out the door, and it was a relative's house, so he would have been safe, but still. There was also one time my mom called the police because she couldn't find me, and i was in my room the whole time.

Indeed you were not. There IS an overprotective quality also... my children are one of the few things I 'allow' my OCD free-rein with. Everywhere else, I fight it.

I know.

And you'll probably want to start fighting it again once they've started hitting the middle-school range...

no i wouldnt prosecute a grieving mother for a terrible accident. she did nothing willingly to harm her child.

i would use this sad story as a vehicle for suggesting to all daycare providers and parents who use them to set up a system where if a child who is expected isnt dropped off at the regular time, they call the parents to make sure that something like this hasnt happened.
A number of the daycare centers here in NC already do that, as well as other things, such as having a Website where parents can view the webcams that monitor the children all day long.

I just have real trouble understanding how someone could be so absentminded as to forget a child in the back of a van! My God! :(

Wasn't there a very similar case not long ago where a father forgot to drop off his child at the daycare??? Totaly incredible!

I know.

And you'll probably want to start fighting it again once they've started hitting the middle-school range...

Fortunately, they are years apart - so I just get to redirect it. :)

I'm inclined to believe I'll always be SOME obsessive about my lil'uns, though. :)

Was she heavily sleep-deprived? Was she on drugs? There are important mitigating or aggravating factors here that have to be taken into account.

If mitigating factors prevail - no charges.

Fortunately, they are years apart - so I just get to redirect it. :)

I'm inclined to believe I'll always be SOME obsessive about my lil'uns, though. :)

Well, that's inevitable, just as a good parent, as I understand it. I'm just saying that you'll probably have to try to fight the compulsions - it could end up harming them... :(

Well, that's inevitable, just as a good parent, as I understand it. I'm just saying that you'll probably have to try to fight the compulsions - it could end up harming them... :(

Plus, if I do background checks on my daughter's boyfriends, she might not appreciate it.

Not a bad idea, though...

no i wouldnt prosecute a grieving mother for a terrible accident. she did nothing willingly to harm her child.

If nothing else this is negligence - based on what we know. She neglected to properly care for her child and the child is dead. She should be charged.

The negligence is that she forgot. It was an accident, probably, but it was still not properly caring for her child. Negligence isn't normally intentional. It's usually accidental. Intent would probably bring a greater charge.

How did she not notice that the car seat was still in the car? (Most five month olds are still in carriers that attach to a base, no?) How did she not notice the carrier in her rear view window? How did she not notice the diaper bag still next to her pocketbook? How did she not notice that her kid was still in the car.

As a parent, your first responsibility is to be more than vigilant in protection of your kid. It is your job to be OCD - in checking that she's not in the car when she's supposed to be. In checking that the kitchen is babyproofed. In checking that the bathroom door is always closed so that your toddler doesn't drown in the toilet. Not being constantly vigilant is negligence.

If nothing else this is negligence - based on what we know. She neglected to properly care for her child and the child is dead. She should be charged.

The negligence is that she forgot. It was an accident, probably, but it was still not properly caring for her child. Negligence isn't normally intentional. It's usually accidental. Intent would probably bring a greater charge.

How did she not notice that the car seat was still in the car? (Most five month olds are still in carriers that attach to a base, no?) How did she not notice the carrier in her rear view window? How did she not notice the diaper bag still next to her pocketbook? How did she not notice that her kid was still in the car.

As a parent, your first responsibility is to be more than vigilant in protection of your kid. It is your job to be OCD - in checking that she's not in the car when she's supposed to be. In checking that the kitchen is babyproofed. In checking that the bathroom door is always closed so that your toddler doesn't drown in the toilet. Not being constantly vigilant is negligence.

People keep saying 'car'... but this wasn't a car... it was a minivan - which could make a difference.

Indeed, reading the actual article that is linked: "Kreun said it would have been impossible for passersby to see the baby in the van, which had tinted windows. "I walked around that van about 14 times after they left, and you would not have been able to see in there," he said."

People also keep saying this is unusual - but, again, reading the article: "Kreun, who has been in the child care business for years, said near-tragedies happen all too often. "I know people who have gotten to work and realized they forgot to drop off their kids and had to go back.""

She looks to have been unlucky. She made a mistake a lot of people made. Her vehicle is not well designed to easily spot a child inside. In her case - she didn't catch it in time. It's a tragedy, not a sin.

I'd charge her with negligence.

Agreed.

she needs to be mentally assessed - yes it's tragic, yes it's terrible - but it's possible we dont know all the facts. She should be charged, but the severity of the sentence will dependant on the surrounding circumstances

How could you be that absentminded about your own child?!

Lock her up...Christ, what an idiot.Losing her child to such a stupid mistake is enough punishment on its own, I think.

Losing her child to such a stupid mistake is enough punishment on its own, I think.
Agreed. She's punished herself . . . . probably for life.

no i wouldnt prosecute a grieving mother for a terrible accident. she did nothing willingly to harm her child.

i would use this sad story as a vehicle for suggesting to all daycare providers and parents who use them to set up a system where if a child who is expected isnt dropped off at the regular time, they call the parents to make sure that something like this hasnt happened.
No. We absolutely should not institute a system that accepts that people can be that frigging stupid!! Honestly, 5 WEEKS OLD!! How can you just forget about something that came out of your damn vagina a month ago?? I'm not saying that prosecuting her would help anything; rather, I think she needs a good beating on the head and maybe her tubes tied.

Holy shit, I mean, even if you forget to drop the baby off at first, I don't know how you can fail to notice an infant sitting behind you. They tend to cry a lot, if nothing else. And why is the baby being dropped off at a daycare center at that young of age? That's ridiculous. Do people have no time to spend with their kids anymore? If you don't have the time or brains to raise a kid, DON'T FUCKING DO IT.

If stupidity was a crime, the prisons could not possibly hold all the guilty.
You'd really just have to enclose all of the earth but a small area. Put the sane in the small area, and everywhere else is the asylum, where people can be stupid all they like (I wonder which group of stupids would win out eventually? Probably Scientologists).

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14926060.htm

Here's the situation - you're the local prosecutor, and you get to decide whether or not to charge the mother with a crime.

Do you charge her with a crime? If so, which crime, and what kind of penalty would you seek?

Hmmm. Depends on what I had said during my election campaign.

I find it impossible that she could enter, and leave a minivan, and not notice a baby in a car seat.

This sounds like a homicide.

If I put a sack of potatoes in the back seat of a minivan, wich is about the same size as a baby in a carseat, its impossible not to notice it there, when getting in and out of that vehicle at least twice.

Murder 1.

Max sentence.

Please.

I've gotten all the way to work before remembering that I forgot my lunch.
OR my lesson plans for the day.
Or forgotten to do an errand on my way home from work.

It's horrible, there should be an investigation, yes. But I should think that sleep deprivation is a big part of it. With a small infant you are up every two hours. Combine that with working a full day, and doing what you need to run the house (cleaning, cooking) and very easily you could be running on autopilot.

If she were a truly horrible mom, she would not have the kid in childcare, nor would she have gone to childcare to pick the kid up.

Once the investigation finishes, we'll know more. However, unlike all the perfect people here who have amazing memories and IQs of eleventy billion, I can see all too easily how this could have happened.

No. We absolutely should not institute a system that accepts that people can be that frigging stupid!! Honestly, 5 WEEKS OLD!! How can you just forget about something that came out of your damn vagina a month ago?? I'm not saying that prosecuting her would help anything; rather, I think she needs a good beating on the head and maybe her tubes tied.

Holy shit, I mean, even if you forget to drop the baby off at first, I don't know how you can fail to notice an infant sitting behind you. They tend to cry a lot, if nothing else. And why is the baby being dropped off at a daycare center at that young of age? That's ridiculous. Do people have no time to spend with their kids anymore? If you don't have the time or brains to raise a kid, DON'T FUCKING DO IT.

How is it a matter of 'stupid'? Why not 'exhausted'? Why not 'distracted'? Why not 'ill'?

I've gone out to buy daipers before, and come back with everything but. That doesn't mean I'm stupid, or that I care less about my baby... just that it is EASY to be distracted.

As for new baby crying all the time - not only is that not true for every baby - but it could actually be a contributing factor in this case... maybe this baby DID cry a lot... and maybe THAT morning, baby was asleep... so mommy didn't hear baby crying? If she thought she had dropped her kid at daycare, the simple absence of noise would be a suggestion that she was right, no?

As for head trauma and tied-tubes... again, I fail to see how any petty negeance is going to come close to what this parent is already feeling. It will be, at best, salt in a wound.

As for how she could not notice baby still behind her.... babyseats face AWAY from the driver, and minivan seating arrangements might not be helpful, depending on where she could FIT the babyseat.

As for the 'crime' of dropping a baby at daycare, rather than staying at home... you assume WAY too much. This could be a single mom, which means she HAS to work. Hell - the US is so damn bankrupt, it's almost impossible for a family with one working parent to survive.

I'm sure MOST parents would LOVE to spend more time with their kids... I know I would - but it's not reality. We end up working.

And - young mom's just can't win. If she had aborted, she'd have got crap for the evil of her choice, if she has the baby, she gets crap for not (being able to?) staying at home.

I find it impossible that she could enter, and leave a minivan, and not notice a baby in a car seat.

This sounds like a homicide.

If I put a sack of potatoes in the back seat of a minivan, wich is about the same size as a baby in a carseat, its impossible not to notice it there, when getting in and out of that vehicle at least twice.

Murder 1.

Max sentence.

Most parents take baby out, and leave the car seat in. Baby car seats also face AWAY from the driver.

As the article said - even walking around and around the minivan, there was no way to see the baby inside.

Most parents take baby out, and leave the car seat in. Baby car seats also face AWAY from the driver.

As the article said - even walking around and around the minivan, there was no way to see the baby inside.

I kinda find that hard to believe.

Unless this woman was on something, how could she forget this kid was in there?

Were the windows tinted?
If so, maybe thats why you couldnt see inside, but if not, she could at LEAST see the seat.
Seeing that, doesnt it seem logical that would jog her memory at all?

I wanna see pictures of this van.

Please.

I've gotten all the way to work before remembering that I forgot my lunch.



Kat there is a world of difference between your lunch and a baby. At least I hope so! :eek:

Was she heavily sleep-deprived?

Most parents of young children are.

You don't have to peel your lunch before eating it? Unless there's bananas or something.

Anyway, a little story:

Many moons ago my Grandmother goes shopping, as usual, and takes my mother with her in a parambulator. She parks the pram outside the shop, goes in, gets what she needs and goes home.

That afternoon my grandfather came home from work.
"Where's the baby?" he asked.
Laying, in the pram, outside the shop, where my grandmother had left her.

Fifty years later the pram could've been a car seat...

My mother did something similar with my sister when she was very young; she left her in a pram with the lady on the checkout in a supermarket (carting a two-year-old and a baby of a few months around is tricky, I'm led to believe). Once she'd been 'round the shop with me she checked: One child, as normal. She went home, leaving my sister there.

It happens.

I kinda find that hard to believe.

Unless this woman was on something, how could she forget this kid was in there?

Were the windows tinted?
If so, maybe thats why you couldnt see inside, but if not, she could at LEAST see the seat.
Seeing that, doesnt it seem logical that would jog her memory at all?

I wanna see pictures of this van.

What do you mean you find it hard to believe? Did you not read the article that the very first post linked to? It clearly states that the owner of the daycare centre walked around the vehicle a number of times, and couldn't see the baby:

"Kreun said it would have been impossible for passersby to see the baby in the van, which had tinted windows.

"I walked around that van about 14 times after they left, and you would not have been able to see in there," he said.


http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14926060.htm (the same link as in the original post)

You don't have to peel your lunch before eating it? Unless there's bananas or something.

Anyway, a little story:

Many moons ago my Grandmother goes shopping, as usual, and takes my mother with her in a parambulator. She parks the pram outside the shop, goes in, gets what she needs and goes home.

That afternoon my grandfather came home from work.
"Where's the baby?" he asked.
Laying, in the pram, outside the shop, where my grandmother had left her.

Fifty years later the pram could've been a car seat...

My mother did something similar with my sister when she was very young; she left her in a pram with the lady on the checkout in a supermarket (carting a two-year-old and a baby of a few months around is tricky, I'm led to believe). Once she'd been 'round the shop with me she checked: One child, as normal. She went home, leaving my sister there.

It happens.

It happens easily - depending on what is in your mind at the time, and how much it distracts.

My wife, as a child, was left at the funeral home after the viewing of a close family member. Her parents (my in-laws) got almost back home, before they realised she WASN'T just sitting quietly in the back...

What do you mean you find it hard to believe? Did you not read the article that the very first post linked to? It clearly states that the owner of the daycare centre walked around the vehicle a number of times, and couldn't see the baby:



http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14926060.htm (the same link as in the original post)

When you enter a vehicle, do you not look at anything but the front seat?
Do you not look around at all?

Maybe when you exit the vehicle, just to make sure you didnt leave something you might need?

This could be just negligent homicide.
However, remember that woman in Texas who drowned her kids in the lake, and then claimed they had been abducted?

This could be more sinister than sleep deprivation.

Yes.

Charges of negligence.
I define negligence as anything less than total, self-sacrifing commitment.

When you enter a vehicle, do you not look at anything but the front seat?
Do you not look around at all?

Maybe when you exit the vehicle, just to make sure you didnt leave something you might need?

This could be just negligent homicide.
However, remember that woman in Texas who drowned her kids in the lake, and then claimed they had been abducted?

This could be more sinister than sleep deprivation.

Are we talking about me, or are we talking about other people? Me - I'm obsessive/compulsive. I've been known to check, recheck and then check again, safety belts. No harm in it. I'd rather check 'too many' times than not enough.

But - I am an exception, not a rule.

Again - we come to the less than idea situation of babyseats. Perhaps they are safer in the back. Perhaps they are safer facing backwards.

But - you can bet a lot less parentws would forget their kids are still in the car (and the article SAYS they see it a lot, just not usually fatal), if car seats were forward facing and/or in the front of the car.


But - you weigh up potentials. Far fewer kids get the 'risk' of being left in the vehicle, than get the 'risk' of being thrown through the windshield when an SUV smashes into them on an intersection... so our 'precautions' favour backseat, facing away... far LESS than ideal for being aware of the safety of your child.

Just as a question - are you a parent?

I HATE riding in the car without another person to watch the baby with me. My little boy is behind me somewhere, and facing away... I can't even tell if he's breathing, unless he's yelling.... and, he's a good baby, so he's usually very quiet.

Yes.

Charges of negligence.
I define negligence as anything less than total, self-sacrifing commitment.

Which has yet to be evidenced....

G_n_I The recommended way of fitting baby carriers into a vehicle is to have it facing backwards in the front passenger seat. This is the safest position in the car. If you fit it elsewhere, then you had better have a good reason for doing so.

As to OCD - where children less than 2 are concerned all parents should by obsessive/compulsive with respect to them. I know I was, I also know that most of my friends were. You are responsible for a person who can do nothing, absolutely nothing to help themself. You have to be obsessive about this.

Excusing this woman on the basis that she was tired, or distracted is wrong. She had a duty to her child, and she failed in that duty.

I commented earlier that if it had been her dog that died due to her negligence, then no one would be defending her - why are people defending here when it is a human baby that died? Just because she has lost her child, does not excuse her failing.

Kat there is a world of difference between your lunch and a baby. At least I hope so! :eek:


You are SO missing the point.

How about this: when I was six, all of my aunts and uncles and cousins met at my Aunt K's house before we were to go to a family reunion. We're talking 12 adults and about 14 kids.

My cousin got left behind in the house, because she was in the bathroom when people evacuated and started bundling kids into cars.

Granted, when we got to the reunion (about 15 minutes away) she was missed and someone went straight back home to get her.

Was this a crime? Or simply what happens when there is a lot of distraction and rushing to get somewhere?

G_n_I The recommended way of fitting baby carriers into a vehicle is to have it facing backwards in the front passenger seat. This is the safest position in the car. If you fit it elsewhere, then you had better have a good reason for doing so.


WRONG.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.9f8c7d6359e0e9bbbf30811060008a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=4670b93a0b088a006bc1d6b760008a0c_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_4670b93a0b088a006bc1d6b760008a0c_viewID=detail_view&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token&itemID=061fab6383f62010VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&overrideViewName=Article

You are NEVER supposed to have a baby carrier or child in the front seat because the airbag can injure or kill them. I would think as a concerned parent you would KNOW this.

If your kid died as a result of your negligence in this matter, should we throw away the key when we lock you up?

Which has yet to be evidenced....

*shrug*
We got a dead baby - so we better have someone to chuck behind bars.

You are SO missing the point.
I was only lightening the thread a little

How about this: when I was six, all of my aunts and uncles and cousins met at my Aunt K's house before we were to go to a family reunion. We're talking 12 adults and about 14 kids.

My cousin got left behind in the house, because she was in the bathroom when people evacuated and started bundling kids into cars.

Granted, when we got to the reunion (about 15 minutes away) she was missed and someone went straight back home to get her.

Was this a crime? Or simply what happens when there is a lot of distraction and rushing to get somewhere?

12 adults and 14 kids creates the possibility of this type of confusion. Everyone thinks that your cousin is with someone else. You appear to be missing the point that this mother was responsible for the child, and only she was responsible. There was no one else there, no possibility of someone else having done it.

Now if you want to excuse her on the basis of tiredness or confusion, then go ahead, I do not. I fell she has not taken reasonable care of her child, ands as such she is criminally liable for the child's death.

Looking at the poll to date, it seems that there is a 2 to 1 majority in favour of my position. It is, however, a matter that each individual has to decide for themself.

A second point is that the question is whether she should be charged. This would place it in the hands of her peers to decide if she should be punished. How can that be wrong? The alternative is that one person (the DA or equivalent) decides that she shopuld not be punished. I prefer to listen to her peers, not to a professional lawyer.

All right then: if your child is injured or killed as a result of your placement of the car seat in the front, or if another's child is injured or killed as a result of your affirmation of this belief, should you be charged with negligent homocide?

Additionally, I don't see how you can accept that distraction is an acceptable reason for leaving a seven year old in the house but it's not one for leaving a sleeping kid in a car. One unfortunately had terrible consequences but both were just as unintended.

Isee it as an honest mistake.
My mother never locked me in the car.
I went to Playcentre and it was l33t and it wasn't like mother had a job apart from doing the best(Ok maybe 3rd or 4th but not my ma...:p ) job a woman can do being a Housewife.

If this woman had a career then she is neglegient if the Father ditched them he should be punished also.

You are SO missing the point.

How about this: when I was six, all of my aunts and uncles and cousins met at my Aunt K's house before we were to go to a family reunion. We're talking 12 adults and about 14 kids.

My cousin got left behind in the house, because she was in the bathroom when people evacuated and started bundling kids into cars.

Granted, when we got to the reunion (about 15 minutes away) she was missed and someone went straight back home to get her.

Was this a crime? Or simply what happens when there is a lot of distraction and rushing to get somewhere?
I call it Home Alone.
http://www.mvps.org/st-software/Movie_Collection/images/2329f.jpg

Isee it as an honest mistake.
My mother never locked me in the car.
I went to Playcentre and it was l33t and it wasn't like mother had a job apart from doing the best(Ok maybe 3rd or 4th but not my ma...:p ) job a woman can do being a Housewife.

If this woman had a career then she is neglegient if the Father ditched them he should be punished also.

And if that career is feeding her and her family, is that negligent?
Really, some men should stay at home and cook and clean all day instead of having to go out and ignore their families. :rolleyes:

If your mom was a stay-at-home --- why were you in Daycare? Just curious.

G_n_I The recommended way of fitting baby carriers into a vehicle is to have it facing backwards in the front passenger seat. This is the safest position in the car. If you fit it elsewhere, then you had better have a good reason for doing so.

As to OCD - where children less than 2 are concerned all parents should by obsessive/compulsive with respect to them. I know I was, I also know that most of my friends were. You are responsible for a person who can do nothing, absolutely nothing to help themself. You have to be obsessive about this.

Excusing this woman on the basis that she was tired, or distracted is wrong. She had a duty to her child, and she failed in that duty.

I commented earlier that if it had been her dog that died due to her negligence, then no one would be defending her - why are people defending here when it is a human baby that died? Just because she has lost her child, does not excuse her failing.

"Georgia state law requires children under age 6 to ride in an approved car seat or booster seat that is appropriate for their height and weight. Children under age 6 also must ride in the back seat unless all back seat positions are in use by other passengers or there is no back seat. Georgia law requires children ages 7 to 16 to be buckled in a seat belt. http://babyproducts.about.com/od/statecarseatlaws/qt/georgia_cps.htm

"Children must be in the rear seat unless: There is no rear seating position or All appropriate rear seating positions are occupied by other children Children in the front seat must be properly restrained in an appropriate seat used according to the manufacturer's instructions" http://www.gohs.state.ga.us/safetyseatlaw.html

And - since I realise, the story in the article isn't in my state:

"Babies should ride in rear-facing seats until they are at least 1 year old and weigh at least 20 pounds"

and:


"Children 12 and younger should ride in the back seat - even if your vehicle doesn't have airbags."

http://www.health.state.nd.us/injuryprevention/childpassenger/


The 'good reason' is... it's the law.

WRONG.

You are NEVER supposed to have a baby carrier or child in the front seat because the airbag can injure or kill them.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.9f8c7d6359e0e9bbbf30811060008a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=4670b93a0b088a006bc1d6b760008a0c_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_4670b93a0b088a006bc1d6b760008a0c_viewID=detail_view&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token&itemID=061fab6383f62010VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&overrideViewName=Article
It has changed then - with the advent of air bags (When my child was an infant airbags were not standard here). I stand corrected.

I call it Home Alone.
http://www.mvps.org/st-software/Movie_Collection/images/2329f.jpg


Yeah, too bad I'm only 20 years older than Macauley Culkin, and there weren't any stupid burglars, and my cousin didn't lay traps for us...

*shrug*
We got a dead baby - so we better have someone to chuck behind bars.

Why?

I'm thinking 'justice'... you seem to be looking for revenge...?

Amazing how many people here are absolutely perfect.
Some of us are not perfect and we sometimes make mistakes.

It happens quite a lot. Usually it doesn’t result in death, but now and then it does.
Tragic yes, homicide no.

She obviously has been sleep deprived and stressed out – as anyone would be in that situation. Her routine got interrupted and she thought she had dropped the kid off – when one day blends into the next she could very well have had a clear memory of dropping the kid off – it just happens to have been the memory of the day before, but a solid memory nonetheless.

There are any number of reasons why she could have forgotten about the child.
In some cases, high levels of stress combined with severe sleep deprivation can cause far more disturbing effects than this episode – it can cause full blown hallucinations in previously healthy individuals. It is unfortunate that an otherwise minor mental slip had such results, but very understandable.

All right then: if your child is injured or killed as a result of your placement of the car seat in the front, or if another's child is injured or killed as a result of your affirmation of this belief, should you be charged with negligent homocide?
I have acknowledged that the regulations and advice have changed. OK.

Additionally, I don't see how you can accept that distraction is an acceptable reason for leaving a seven year old in the house but it's not one for leaving a sleeping kid in a car. One unfortunately had terrible consequences but both were just as unintended.

Because a seven year old, in a mess of many people is a very different thing to a five month old that you are solely responsible for. Why do you not see the difference? The duty of care in the two cases is very different.

Why?

I'm thinking 'justice'... you seem to be looking for revenge...?


*shrug* define Justice.

I'm thinking in terms of: pour encourager les autres.
Make it plain that you'd better be totally devoted to parenting your kid.
Something in which I find Americans... careless.
I've heard too many of 'em speaking in terms of devolving their responsibilities to their own parents, ie. parenting by grandparents.

G_n_I The recommended way of fitting baby carriers into a vehicle is to have it facing backwards in the front passenger seat. This is the safest position in the car. If you fit it elsewhere, then you had better have a good reason for doing so.
No, it isn't. It is suggested that no child, especially not a baby in a baby seat facing backwards go in the front seat because of the airbag. Looks like you fail as a parent.
http://www.nsc.org/traf/sbc/sbcchild.htm
http://www.aap.org/family/carseatguide.htm
Etcetera.

Excusing this woman on the basis that she was tired, or distracted is wrong. She had a duty to her child, and she failed in that duty.
You just made a blatant mistake in your first paragraph of your average holier-than-thou crap. Should you be crucified because you put an infant in a baby seat in the front seat and it was killed because of a deploying airbag? I know not to do this and I have never had a child and really have no intentions to having one or taking care of one.
How can you know what really happened to an extent that there is "no" reason that this could have possibly happened?


I commented earlier that if it had been her dog that died due to her negligence, then no one would be defending her - why are people defending here when it is a human baby that died? Just because she has lost her child, does not excuse her failing.
Totally bullshit and irrelevant. Nice try with the fallacy though.

Amazing how many people here are absolutely perfect.
Some of us are not perfect and we sometimes make mistakes.
It is not a matter of being perfect. It is a matter of getting your priorities in order. If you are a parent respoonsible for an under 2 year old your priority is, and has to be, at all time, in all circumstances, the welfare of that child. That is what it means to be a parent.

It happens quite a lot. Usually it doesn’t result in death, but now and then it does.
Tragic yes, homicide no.
It happens very rarely if you consider the number of babies in the world.
Tragic yes, homicide, yes. Intentional no.

She obviously has been sleep deprived and stressed out – as anyone would be in that situation.
But not anyone leaves their kid to die.

Her routine got interrupted and she thought she had dropped the kid off – when one day blends into the next she could very well have had a clear memory of dropping the kid off – it just happens to have been the memory of the day before, but a solid memory nonetheless.
You have to double and triple check everything when you are a tired stressed out parent. She didn't. Wrong.

There are any number of reasons why she could have forgotten about the child.
In some cases, high levels of stress combined with severe sleep deprivation can cause far more disturbing effects than this episode – it can cause full blown hallucinations in previously healthy individuals. It is unfortunate that an otherwise minor mental slip had such results, but very understandable.

It is unfortunate and understandable and homicide. There are many circumstances in which a homicide can be unfortunate and understandable, but it does not stop it being homicide. Why not put the case to a jury to decide? If there are mitigating circumstances then she will be acquitted, or do you not trust the court system to do that?

And if that career is feeding her and her family, is that negligent?
Really, some men should stay at home and cook and clean all day instead of having to go out and ignore their families. :rolleyes:

If your mom was a stay-at-home --- why were you in Daycare? Just curious.
Nope it isn't.

:(

It wasn't really a daycare perhaps and she was there too.FIIK i was young how am i meant to remember.:confused:
But in saying that i am thankfull because as i grew up i could always go home after school whereas those who had both parents working whether it was for choice or need had to stay at school till about 6pm.

That is the tragedy.
I believe Britian as well as NZ's respective governments want to have an all day daycare system so they can brainwash the young while the parents work.

Yeah, too bad I'm only 20 years older than Macauley Culkin, and there weren't any stupid burglars, and my cousin didn't lay traps for us...
Stories have to start somewhere.

No, it isn't. It is suggested that no child, especially not a baby in a baby seat facing backwards go in the front seat because of the airbag. Looks like you fail as a parent.
http://www.nsc.org/traf/sbc/sbcchild.htm
http://www.aap.org/family/carseatguide.htm
Etcetera.
Try to keep up.I admitted I was wrong, I was basing this on the instructions received when my son was a baby - prior to air bags being common here.

Snip - as no longer relevant -nice flamming though. Remind me to insult you personally next time.

totally bullshit and irrelevant. Nice try with the fallacy though.
How is it irrelevant? The woman forgot something in the car. That thing was alive - now it is dead. The only difference is that this time it was a baby - not a dog. If you can't address the issue ignore it, don't try to escape by calling it a fallacy - it isn't.

It is not a matter of being perfect. It is a matter of getting your priorities in order. If you are a parent respoonsible for an under 2 year old your priority is, and has to be, at all time, in all circumstances, the welfare of that child. That is what it means to be a parent.
Well the rest of us know what it is to be human.



But not anyone leaves their kid to die.
Because situations like this have never happened before. of course.

You have to double and triple check everything when you are a tired stressed out parent. She didn't. Wrong.
More holier-than-thou bullshit. Who thinks to check every little detail multiple times when they are tired or stressed beyond reason? Very few people.
And what's more, tiredness and stress combined can easily lead one to believe they did something they didn't do because it was routine. I have done it without being tired. You get into a routine and you just assume you did it if you were distracted and didn't actually do it. She believed she left the child at daycare as shown by going to pick it up, I know mini-hallucinations like that are as vivid as solid memory.


Why not put the case to a jury to decide? If there are mitigating circumstances then she will be acquitted, or do you not trust the court system to do that?
Not particularly.

Try to keep up.I admitted I was wrong, I was basing this on the instructions received when my son was a baby - prior to air bags being common here.
You apparently need to be reminded still that you arn't perfect. I assume then based on that statement that your children are old enough to have grandchildren, or would be very soon. What if you continued to follow the old instructiosn with you grandchild? Should you be crucified for itif doing that got the child killed?

How is it irrelevant? The woman forgot something in the car. That thing was alive - now it is dead. The only difference is that this time it was a baby - not a dog. If you can't address the issue ignore it, don't try to escape by calling it a fallacy - it isn't.
If I cared to look up the fallacy, I would. This has nothing to do with the situation and only serves to rile up people. The issue is blatantly confrontational and a non-related issue.

Well the rest of us know what it is to be human.
Apparently you don't - as you seem to think that people don't have to check on themselves when they cannot afford to make a mistake. It is because I am human, and I have been in the position of this woman, that I find her action inexcusable. She had to check, regardless.

Are you a parent - have you been there, suffered this kind of tiredness and stress? Or are you arguing purely from what you imagine it would be like?

Yes, because most DA are supposed to make money off of prosecuting people. I hate lawyers. :mad:

You apparently need to be reminded still that you arn't perfect. I assume then based on that statement that your children are old enough to have grandchildren, or would be very soon. What if you continued to follow the old instructiosn with you grandchild? Should you be crucified for itif doing that got the child killed?
No I happen to live in Brazil (as my location makes clear), where most cars are still not fitted with airbags. But you can assume , wrongly, that I am somewhere in the first world if you want.
When I next get a child seat I will follow the instructions that come with it. OK.


If I cared to look up the fallacy, I would. This has nothing to do with the situation and only serves to rile up people. The issue is blatantly confrontational and a non-related issue.

No. There is no intent to rile people. I am simply pointing out a parallel circumstance under which people would respond differently, and asking why? It is a related issue - highly so.

I have to say that I wouldn't press charges.

I do agree with tests of some sort to see if there was a reason why she forgot about the baby, but even if it was due to stupidity or just plain forgetting, its an accident, admittedbly a terrible one.

Also, surely the entire point of prison is to punish the criminal, and to disuade them from reoffending? I think the mother most likely feel wretched enough without the need for additional punishment, and if she got herself into the same situation, she most likely would not make the same mistake twice.

If she did, that may be grounds for criminal charges though

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"

No I happen to live in Brazil (as my location makes clear),
And my location says pantsopia.

No. There is no intent to rile people. I am simply pointing out a parallel circumstance under which people would respond differently, and asking why? It is a related issue - highly so.
Under which you assume that the same people would respond differently. Two large, baseless assumptions that tear your argument apart. The circumstance is not parallel unless you want some one to chastise you for saying a dog is more important than a child. Oh wait, you are insulting all of us by assuming that is what we believe because are arn't falling for your holier-than-thou diatribes.

I wasn't going to vote in the poll because there is more to it than filing charges, but now I will vote no out of spite.

I wasn't going to vote in the poll because there is more to it than filing charges, but now I will vote no out of spite.

I simply didn't vote, because I believe we have too little information.

The original article suggested the investigators thought it unlikely charges would be pressed... which makes me think we are getting less than an entire view of the account.

I say we tie her tubes and then let her go. It was an accedent, so I don't think she should get jail time, but she was too careless to allow another child.

i would use this sad story as a vehicle for suggesting to all daycare providers and parents who use them to set up a system where if a child who is expected isnt dropped off at the regular time, they call the parents to make sure that something like this hasnt happened.

No amount of laws can make up for a "parent" who is this forgetful.
More laws can make child care more expensive and make those who do day care have just one more thing to do during the day which is not child care however.

If it were possible I would allow this woman to plea bargain down to parole/probation as punishment for her crime on the condition that she immediately have her reproductive organs removed by a surgeon at her own expense.

No amount of laws can make up for a "parent" who is this forgetful.
More laws can make child care more expensive and make those who do day care have just one more thing to do during the day which is not child care however.

You don't think the daycare centre should be interested in whether or not their usual crop has arrived? It doesn't speak well to a feeling of security, if your daycare place just doesn't care if your kid is there or not.

If it were possible I would allow this woman to plea bargain down to parole/probation as punishment for her crime on the condition that she immediately have her reproductive organs removed by a surgeon at her own expense.

And, this is why laws are not made by you.

You don't think the daycare centre should be interested in whether or not their usual crop has arrived? It doesn't speak well to a feeling of security, if your daycare place just doesn't care if your kid is there or not.

It is not their business if I dont bring them on any given day. Nor should it be.

And, this is why laws are not made by you.
Are you against the parole part or the sterilisation part?
If the latter I suppose that you would encourage her to have many more children to get over the loss. Or in case she kills more. Cant have too many spare children when you kill them.

It is not their business if I dont bring them on any given day. Nor should it be.

Actually - it is EXACTLY 'their business'... since most daycare centres charge based on an assumption of a set number of days.

Thus - if a child is not there for one of those days, they charge you for a facility you did not use.

But - being less picky about the logic, and more rational as a human being - If I put my child in daycare, I WANT them to give a shit about where my kid is. I WANT them to call me, if I'm late dropping of the kid.

The creche my daughter was in, saw no problems doing EXACTLY that. It was policy to call if my daughter (or anyone's child) was not in the building by the usual drop-off time. Making sure all your clients are present is GOOD business.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14926060.htm

Here's the situation - you're the local prosecutor, and you get to decide whether or not to charge the mother with a crime.

Do you charge her with a crime? If so, which crime, and what kind of penalty would you seek?

This is just an old urban legend.

Are you against the parole part or the sterilisation part?
If the latter I suppose that you would encourage her to have many more children to get over the loss. Or in case she kills more. Cant have too many spare children when you kill them.

The part I'm against is your barbaric vengeance approach to legislation. Removing body parts as condition of justice met? I mean, really...

Your response degenerates line on line...

"I suppose that you would encourage her to have many more children to get over the loss"... based NOT on anything I said.

To be honest, I doubt having more children is going to be high on her list for some time, if ever again.

"Or in case she kills more"... the child died of hypothermia. The mother wasn't rpesent. It was an accident. Maybe negligent. Either way - I have not advocated this 'multiple replacement children' idea you seem so fond of - and I don't believe it addresses the matter at hand.

"Cant have too many spare children when you kill them.".. you attempt to make the issue flippant, which just tells me you've reached the limit of your planned 'arguments', such as they were.

When my daughter was 3, I used to take her to day care myself.

I was terrified that I would forget her, and drive straight to work (day care was on the way). So I made a habit of checking, checking, checking, and rechecking at every step of the journey.

Even then, I would still check after I got to work. I know that anyone can forget something like that.
I still do that and my kids have been around a while, today I was running errands without them, and I kept feeling like I forgot something, kept looking in the back seat for them, once I got out and opened the back door, like I was going to get them out of thier carseats:rolleyes: :p

I used to have nightmares that I would leave them somewhere and forget (like at the grocery store, or the carrier on the trunk, ect.) and I still wake up in the middle of the night and go see if they are in thier rooms, and make sure they are breathing (although a lot less often than I did when they were babies)

I think I might be crazy.............:eek:

Actually - it is EXACTLY 'their business'... since most daycare centres charge based on an assumption of a set number of days.

Thus - if a child is not there for one of those days, they charge you for a facility you did not use.


And I pay them. (Well paid them, those years are over now) For having the ability and space to take care of children. I dont want them playing detective and searching for kids who are not there rather than taking care of the children that ARE there. If they want to call...fine. Making laws which insist that child care providers are also private investigators when parents DO NOT hand over their children is taking the nanny state way too far.

I still do that and my kids have been around a while, today I was running errands without them, and I kept feeling like I forgot something, kept looking in the back seat for them, once I got out and opened the back door, like I was going to get them out of thier carseats:rolleyes: :p

I used to have nightmares that I would leave them somewhere and forget (like at the grocery store, or the carrier on the trunk, ect.) and I still wake up in the middle of the night and go see if they are in thier rooms, and make sure they are breathing (although a lot less often than I did when they were babies)

I think I might be crazy.............:eek:

No, you're just a normal mother (as normal as anyone that posts on NS General can be anyway.)

The part I'm against is your barbaric vengeance approach to legislation. Removing body parts as condition of justice met? I mean, really...




That is preventative and not punitive.

Bad enough she did it once.

no i would not press charges

when i was little i locked my mom out of the car, from my car seat if i kicked my little feet far enough i could hit the lock switch. this happen several times she would get out and leave the car running (it was winter and -15F not counting wind chill) while she walked over to my side of the car and when she got there the door would be locked, then she would try and get me to let myself out of the car seat and i would just sit there and giggle.

I'd charge her with negligence at least, possibly involuntary manslaughter. It would depend on her previoius history and the circumstances. Were there drugs or alcohol involved? Was she under stress? Was she sleep-deprived? There should be charges, but circumstances would dictate what they are and what the penalty should be.

It may be that a compassionate judge/jury would decide that losing her child was penalty enough and dismiss charges, but it can't go unaddressed.

That is preventative and not punitive.

Bad enough she did it once.

and you think she is happy this happend that she is glad? what kind of sick person are you?

you have no idea the kind of tramma and heartake not to mention guilt that she is already going through, she is going to deal with this the rest of her life charging her is pointless

I'd charge her with negligence at least, possibly involuntary manslaughter. It would depend on her previoius history and the circumstances. Were there drugs or alcohol involved? Was she under stress? Was she sleep-deprived? There should be charges, but circumstances would dictate what they are and what the penalty should be.

It may be that a compassionate judge/jury would decide that losing her child was penalty enough and dismiss charges, but it can't go unaddressed.
iam so glad to know that stress is now a punishible crime, i guess that lets say 90& of america should be in jail?

That is preventative and not punitive.

Bad enough she did it once.
...
Requiring her to hire an 24hr. nanny to watch over a new child would be preventive.
Requiring any children she may later have to be set up with a foster family would be preventive.
Requiring her husband/extended family members to take care of a new child instead of her would be preventive.
Requiring her productive organs to be removed would be punitive.

The problem is not that she has children, the problem is that she couldn't take care of one. Your solution is equivalent to removing the hands from thieves or the genitals from a rapist.

iam so glad to know that stress is now a punishible crime, i guess that lets say 90& of america should be in jail?
stress isn't a crime, but negligent homicide is.

I am not sure if I would charge her or not, but probably. I really need to know more about the case to figure out what I would charge her with.

*used to want to be a lawyer*

iam so glad to know that stress is now a punishible crime, i guess that lets say 90& of america should be in jail?

Please don't misread. I was pointing out that stress could be a mitigating factor in this situation. People under stress are frequently forgetful about things, including important things like child safety. It doesn't mean she shouldn't be held responsible for her actions, just that there are mitigating factors for her actions.

...
Requiring her to hire an 24hr. nanny to watch over a new child would be preventive.
Requiring any children she may later have to be set up with a foster family would be preventive.
Requiring her husband/extended family members to take care of a new child instead of her would be preventive.
Requiring her productive organs to be removed would be punitive.

The problem is not that she has children, the problem is that she couldn't take care of one. Your solution is equivalent to removing the hands from thieves or the genitals from a rapist.

Save her innards and reinstall them when the child she killed comes back to life then.

Please don't misread. I was pointing out that stress could be a mitigating factor in this situation. People under stress are frequently forgetful about things, including important things like child safety. It doesn't mean she shouldn't be held responsible for her actions, just that there are mitigating factors for her actions.
i was exagerating...stress can be a facter but i think that this woman is going through enough with out haveing the corts comming down on her head

Save her innards and reinstall them when the child she killed comes back to life then.
...You are one sick little person, Not Bad.

stress isn't a crime, but negligent homicide is.

I am not sure if I would charge her or not, but probably. I really need to know more about the case to figure out what I would charge her with.

*used to want to be a lawyer*
i agree that there is not enough info, but going off of the artical there is not enough evidenc there to charge her

put your self in her sues say you did for get one of your daughters one day and she died; would going through a trail and posibly jail help you in any way?

...You are one sick little person, Not Bad.

Maybe but I certainly dont endorse a person having more children after she kills one. I'll bet it wont come as a shock that I'm pro death penalty either. Just not in this case.

i was exagerating...stress can be a facter but i think that this woman is going through enough with out haveing the corts comming down on her head

Actuallly, psychologically, it could be worse for her if nothing happened. If there is not, at the very least, an inquiry, she could have some serious guilt issues. An inquiry that found mitigating factors and exonerated her could go a long way towards giving her closure. Patting her on the head and saying everything's ok won't do that.

At least show enough respect for her as an adult to hold her responsible.

Save her innards and reinstall them when the child she killed comes back to life then.

can i take you innereds and reinstal them when let say oh 100 aids orphens in africa come back from the dead?

i agree that there is not enough info, but going off of the artical there is not enough evidenc there to charge her

put your self in her sues say you did for get one of your daughters one day and she died; would going through a trail and posibly jail help you in any way?
negligent homicide hardly ever carries a jail sentence, I would probably charge her with that suspend the sentance and put her on probation (or that would be my recomendation to the judge anyway)

Maybe but I certainly dont endorse a person having more children after she kills one. I'll bet it wont come as a shock that I'm pro death penalty either. Just not in this case.

Fine, so long as you understand I'm not endorsing a woman paying to castrate herself after accidentally leaving her baby in her van all day. I'm pro-death penalty myself as well, just not for negligent homicide.

Actuallly, psychologically, it could be worse for her if nothing happened. If there is not, at the very least, an inquiry, she could have some serious guilt issues. An inquiry that found mitigating factors and exonerated her could go a long way towards giving her closure. Patting her on the head and saying everything's ok won't do that.

At least show enough respect for her as an adult to hold her responsible.
this is one way of looking at it but i think that no matter what a court would tell her she will always blame herself

can i take you innereds and reinstal them when let say oh 100 aids orphens in africa come back from the dead?

If I had given 100 orphans in Africa AIDs I would prefer that you shot me in the head to prevent me from doing any more damage. But I did not. What pray tell do 100 AIDs orphans in Africa have to do with the price of tea in China?

I'd charge her with negligence.
I would do this more than likely. But not until I have a full investigation into the matter. Several mothers did similar matters because of mental problems, depression, or because they enjoy the attention. If those were the reason I would charge her with murder.

Are you crazy? Regarding post #3 from Drunk Commies Deleted specifically: you don't know that she shuld be brought up on charges for being ****Grossly***** negligent with her own child but, oh, you think charges s/b pressed if she tests positive for drugs? By definition you are an insane person. HELLO!!! HELLO!!!! She killed her kid! Oh BTW, did I mention she killed her kid? Hey! here's a news flash! She killed her kid!

this is one way of looking at it but i think that no matter what a court would tell her she will always blame herself

That's true. But she'll get past it faster (not over it, you never get over losing a child no matter what the circumstances) if she confronts it.

If I had given 100 orphans in Africa AIDs I would prefer that you shot me in the head to prevent me from doing any more damage. But I did not. What pray tell do 100 AIDs orphans in Africa have to do with the price of tea in China?

200 yers ago they had every tihing to do with it...the more slaves that the europians had the less mony the chinese got for there tea but now adays not much... here is what i was getting at..

some could arguee that becaues you are not a active donnor for AIDS reashurch adn prevention taht you could becharged with "negligent homside" for not doing all that you could to keep thoses 100 kids from eather contracting or dieing from AIDS

its just another way of looking at this argument

I still do that and my kids have been around a while, today I was running errands without them, and I kept feeling like I forgot something, kept looking in the back seat for them, once I got out and opened the back door, like I was going to get them out of thier carseats:rolleyes: :p

I used to have nightmares that I would leave them somewhere and forget (like at the grocery store, or the carrier on the trunk, ect.) and I still wake up in the middle of the night and go see if they are in thier rooms, and make sure they are breathing (although a lot less often than I did when they were babies)

I think I might be crazy.............:eek:

If you are crazy, you are in good company. Well.... company, at least. :)

And I pay them. (Well paid them, those years are over now) For having the ability and space to take care of children. I dont want them playing detective and searching for kids who are not there rather than taking care of the children that ARE there. If they want to call...fine. Making laws which insist that child care providers are also private investigators when parents DO NOT hand over their children is taking the nanny state way too far.

No one, as far as I am aware, has made any argument about changing the law regarding what daycare centres should do.

Thus - your argument is suffering from the 'strawman fallacy' condition.

I notice you either missed, or chose to ignore, the fact that I addressed you 'not their business' comment, to show exactly why it IS their 'business'.

That's true. But she'll get past it faster (not over it, you never get over losing a child no matter what the circumstances) if she confronts it.
i think that she is going to confront this every day of her life..iam not a phycoligyst or a lawer iam still in high school but haveing wached a good family friend lose a child a few months ago to SIDS, taking her to court wont help the mom( whos baby died from SIDS is still blaming herself when there is nothing to blame) i see this case in the same way this mother will face every day knowing that her child died, taking her to cort wont help her confront the death of her child

That is preventative and not punitive.

Bad enough she did it once.

You don't think drastic bodily surgery might be considered punitive? You don't think making her pay for that surgery might be considered punitive?

You are right on ONE point, in all your posts so far: "Bad enough she did it once."

Bad enough for her. Bad enough for the baby. Bad enough for any family left behind.

All bad enough, without your kind of 'justice' adding to the misery.

It's the car-manufacturer's fault...

Maybe but I certainly dont endorse a person having more children after she kills one. I'll bet it wont come as a shock that I'm pro death penalty either. Just not in this case.

Stangely... you were the only one even MENTIONING 'having more children'. You have constructed yourself an elegant little strawman to conduct a pretty war against.

Perhaps it will be more of a shock, for me to reveal that I am also pro-death penalty. Just not in this case.

I think punitive actions should be taken where they are warranted. And, I think punitive action is NOT warranted in this case, and pales into insignificance beside the punitive action of the 'crime' itself.

If I was the D.A., no charges will be pressed.

It's a tragic case of stupidity.

I think she needs to be charged. Neglect, Manslaughter, whatever you wish to call it. Pity or stress is no reason not to charge her. Neglecting you child is a crime and when a crime is commited there should be charges, sure it may be a 'mistake' but that mistake killed a baby :(.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that no one makes mistakes, nor do I believe that anyone is perfect enough never to forget anything just because it's 'important'. And I do not agree with AB Again; as sometimes, even with double checks and triple checks, it does not garantee that you child is safe. Haven't you ever turn a bag inside out many times looking for you keys and missed it even though it was in there all along? I know a child is much harder to miss, but sometimes people's minds really do play tricks.

What about her mental state? As other people have mentioned stress, depression etc. may be a factor. I may not think it's excuse enough for her to be pardoned of the charge, but I don't think it's reason enough to condem her to hell, lifetime imprisonment, etc. either. How do you know your actions aren't indirectly causing, or contributing to the death of someone else in the world? It's completely unintentional, and you don't even know about it, then is it a sin? Her neglect is terrible and tragic, but not intentional, so I don't think it's fair to judge her so harshly for it.

Personally though, I don't think jail time is really the right approch, if this is an accidental crime as I think it is, she should feel regretful enough as is. So rather than just locking her up, I think the 'punishment' should be either, something that'd send a message out to the pubilic and raise awareness as to prevent future tragdies; or maybe a period of complusory, 'volutary work' eg. working for a soup kitchen, old people's home, animal shelter etc. This is because I think helping people is a good way to repent for doing something bad. Even though you can't bring the baby back, at least this is doing something for others.

But most importantly, I think that after the loss what she really needs is counsoling and not just punishment. I'm all for prevention of crime, but I really don't think tying tubes and such is the way to go :rolleyes:.

After doing that I'm pretty sure she wouldnt care what happened, you could say that you were just going to take her out behind the courthouse and put two in her head and she probably wouldnt even flinch. Punnishing her doesnt really do anything but make other people feel good, make them feel like they got some kind of revenge or something. Its just primative.

oh yeah, who wants to find a way to tie this to Bush? or the Republican party? come on guys I know we can do it!