NationStates Jolt Archive

Oh, and without a warrant either. Might make those pesky government searches a little easier now. They also want your home address and other data.

Ostensibly to make your "checkout" at the store easier.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/29/technology/29google.html?ei=5065&en=71f83a648568396d&ex=1152244800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

I thought you didn't mind the government spying on you. Did you change your mind recently?

Whatever...

This is just another step in the unending quest for ultimate convenience. No one wanted to write checks anymore, so online billing was invented. Now, it's gone a step further because online payment is too hard for the idiots out there.

I won't be signing up for this, and I think anyone who does is a moron.

and?

Why is this any different to paypal?

If you want to buy stuff on-line you have to have some way of paying for it, and somewhere for it to be delivered to. Of course, you don't actually have to buy anything on-line, so it is all optional.

I thought you didn't mind the government spying on you. Did you change your mind recently?

Whatever...

This is just another step in the unending quest for ultimate convenience. No one wanted to write checks anymore, so online billing was invented. Now, it's gone a step further because online payment is too hard for the idiots out there.

I won't be signing up for this, and I think anyone who does is a moron.


Agreed credit card detils over the net, umm fuck off!

I thought you didn't mind the government spying on you. Did you change your mind recently?

Whatever...

This is just another step in the unending quest for ultimate convenience. No one wanted to write checks anymore, so online billing was invented. Now, it's gone a step further because online payment is too hard for the idiots out there.

I won't be signing up for this, and I think anyone who does is a moron.

No, I'm just pointing out that private industry can do pretty much anything they like - including ruining your life - while the government can't.

Nice logic there - one might presume that if you don't like being spied on, you would pass laws against Google doing this.

I thought you didn't mind the government spying on you. Did you change your mind recently?
No, he didn't. He is just mad that Google wants it instead and then won't turn it over to the government.

But to the topic..
You mean Google is doing the same thing as Pay-Pal? Oh noes, its the end of the interwebs! Pay-pal hasn't been doing the same thing for years :rolleyes:

This is not a mandatory program, and not a government program, and so would never need a warrent.

It is also hardly a new concept, as the article states that Yahoo and other companies have similar offerings. Additionally, all shopping websites offer to store your information to make purchasing faster and easier. Ebay, Amazon...all of them.

There is only an issue if the government oversteps its bounds. Which wouldn't surprise me.

No, he didn't. He is just mad that Google wants it instead and then won't turn it over to the government.

But to the topic..
You mean Google is doing the same thing as Pay-Pal? Oh noes, its the end of the interwebs! Pay-pal hasn't been doing the same thing for years :rolleyes:

Like they helped the Chinese government?

No, I'm just pointing out that private industry can do pretty much anything they like - including ruining your life - while the government can't.

Nice logic there - one might presume that if you don't like being spied on, you would pass laws against Google doing this.
huge difference. When you sign up for the Google service, you willing give them your information. There is no spying if you willingly offer the information. The government subversively takes the information. See a slight difference?

No, I'm just pointing out that private industry can do pretty much anything they like - including ruining your life - while the government can't.

Nice logic there - one might presume that if you don't like being spied on, you would pass laws against Google doing this.

Where does it say that Google will use your credit card number maliciously? This is a service identical to several others, as the article mentions, and entirely ordinary and precedented. I didn't think Google wanted to move in that direction, but it's probably a good business venture for it.

Like they helped the Chinese government?
I think you are confusing Google (www.google.com) with Yahoo (www.yahoo.com). Google only agreed to filter results to China, poorly.

Well, people have an option not to buy stuff from Google.

Generally people don't have the option to not pay taxes. Therefore when Google invades privacy of those who willingly use its services, its not objectional IMO. Whereas if the US government does, its more like rape.

That whole consent thing.

And for the record no, I don't consider half of the nation approving of some representative every 2 or 4 years to be "consent" to whatever that government does.

huge difference. When you sign up for the Google service, you willing give them your information. There is no spying if you willingly offer the information. The government subversively takes the information. See a slight difference?

Nope.

In the near future, you won't have a choice whether or not to give up that information - every vendor with a similar service will demand it. Or you won't be able to buy anything.

They want those numbers to track data. Nothing to stop them from data mining.

And in the end, you won't have a choice, unless you want to give up online shopping.

Well, people have an option not to buy stuff from Google.

Generally people don't have the option to not pay taxes. Therefore when Google invades privacy of those who willingly use its services, its not objectional IMO. Whereas if the US government does, its more like rape.

That whole consent thing.

And for the record no, I don't consider half of the nation approving of some representative every 2 or 4 years to be "consent" to whatever that government does.


It's rape when you don't have a choice. There are private industry things like that already.

You either do business transactions the way they demand, or you don't do business. If enough people go along with it, you're fucked, and there isn't a re-vote.

I think you are confusing Google (www.google.com) with Yahoo (www.yahoo.com). Google only agreed to filter results to China, poorly.
That's cooperation with a government. Anything else? I suppose that's OK with you.

This is just another form of PayPal. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

What's so good about privacy anyway? To me is seems it only breeds distrust and unhappiness in this world, but that's just me.

Nope.

In the near future, you won't have a choice whether or not to give up that information - every vendor with a similar service will demand it. Or you won't be able to buy anything.

They want those numbers to track data. Nothing to stop them from data mining.

And in the end, you won't have a choice, unless you want to give up online shopping.
I will let you in on a little secret... If you want to buy anything from a website they need your CC# and shipping address.
Don't tell anyone.

That's cooperation with a government. Anything else? I suppose that's OK with you.e
Ohhh, of course. Giving up information (like common search terms) to the government is the exact same thing as filtering search results to a particular country. How stupid of me. :rolleyes:

It's rape when you don't have a choice. There are private industry things like that already.

You either do business transactions the way they demand, or you don't do business. If enough people go along with it, you're fucked, and there isn't a re-vote.

Have you gone all socialist on us DK? :eek:

You seem to be arguing against private enterprise here. There is competition in this market you know. Google cannot impose their will on the masses, because there exist other ways of paying for on-line goods.

Amazon has been doing something similar for a long time.

It's rape when you don't have a choice. There are private industry things like that already.

You either do business transactions the way they demand, or you don't do business. If enough people go along with it, you're fucked, and there isn't a re-vote.

No one has a choice whether to fork over their cash to the government. They'll take it by force if you try to avoid it unsuccessfully enough.

People DO have a choice when it comes to paying money to online services.

You're only fucked if that service is essential to your survival AND that service has a complete and total monopoly. But contrary to popular belief there are no such monopolies. Even DeBeers Diamonds has a handful of competitors, and even then its an artificial, government-assisted monopoly. (and who really NEEDS to buy diamonds anyway?)

Amazon has been doing something similar for a long time.
Deep Kimchi is looking for an outlet for all his pent up villianization since he is brown nosing the US government.

Nope.

In the near future, you won't have a choice whether or not to give up that information - every vendor with a similar service will demand it. Or you won't be able to buy anything.

They want those numbers to track data. Nothing to stop them from data mining.

And in the end, you won't have a choice, unless you want to give up online shopping.
pfffft

its a business. you participate in it or not as you see fit. you take the risk or not as you see fit.

if they day comes that in order to buy something online i need a google account, i wont buy it. if enough people make the same choice, the requirement will be dropped. if not, i still wont buy online and people will have decided that they dont mind google keeping their financial info.

Have you gone all socialist on us DK? :eek:

You seem to be arguing against private enterprise here. There is competition in this market you know. Google cannot impose their will on the masses, because there exist other ways of paying for on-line goods.

If it becomes more economical for everyone to do it their way, that will end up being the predominant way.

How many grocery stores do you see that do not use laser scanners at checkout? They're virtually universal.

It's not the giving of credit card numbers online that bothers me as much as storing that information permanently on THEIR END.

Information that is really just betweeen me and the credit card company.

Nope.

In the near future, you won't have a choice whether or not to give up that information - every vendor with a similar service will demand it. Or you won't be able to buy anything.

They want those numbers to track data. Nothing to stop them from data mining.

And in the end, you won't have a choice, unless you want to give up online shopping.
Is it so horrible to go out and buy something? I much prefer that, unless it is a hard to find item.
And no, they cannot demand that you store your information with them, nor would it be a wise business move.
They also want that information because it is cheaper to retain customers than to attract new customers. Additionally, the google service encourages people to buy advert space from them.
Also, they get the data either way. If you order something off line, they have to have a way to get your money, and the have to have a place to ship it to. You can store your data or enter it fresh every time. Your choice, but one is a waste of time.
As I said before, this is nothing new at all. Unless you have never purchased something offline, you have already given your information.

Nope.

In the near future, you won't have a choice whether or not to give up that information - every vendor with a similar service will demand it. Or you won't be able to buy anything.

They want those numbers to track data. Nothing to stop them from data mining.

And in the end, you won't have a choice, unless you want to give up online shopping.
Nice prophecy.

If it becomes more economical for everyone to do it their way, that will end up being the predominant way.

How many grocery stores do you see that do not use laser scanners at checkout? They're virtually universal.
How drunk/high are you?

Nice prophecy.
Too bad he completely ignores the fact companies already need your CC (or pay-pal which even knows your bank account number possibly :eek:) and address to sell anything online.

Nice prophecy.
I've always found it fascinating that people who fear the government will gladly and unquestioningly fork over the same information to private companies in exchange for a loaf of bread.

How drunk/high are you?
I've noticed that you don't have any arguments that aren't insults. Is that your style?

Is it so horrible to go out and buy something? I much prefer that, unless it is a hard to find item.
And no, they cannot demand that you store your information with them, nor would it be a wise business move.
They also want that information because it is cheaper to retain customers than to attract new customers. Additionally, the google service encourages people to buy advert space from them.
Also, they get the data either way. If you order something off line, they have to have a way to get your money, and the have to have a place to ship it to. You can store your data or enter it fresh every time. Your choice, but one is a waste of time.
As I said before, this is nothing new at all. Unless you have never purchased something offline, you have already given your information.


Unless, like certain people, you make all your purchases using either cash or visa gift cards bought with envelopes of cash with "Secret Squirrel" embossed on them...

If it becomes more economical for everyone to do it their way, that will end up being the predominant way.

How many grocery stores do you see that do not use laser scanners at checkout? They're virtually universal.

It's not the giving of credit card numbers online that bothers me as much as storing that information permanently on THEIR END.

Information that is really just betweeen me and the credit card company.

If that bothers you, then all you need to do is go to the source yourself and pay in cash.

To provide a service, such as facilitating transactions online using credit, a company must keep track of the transactions that it handles. Those records will only deal with the transactions you make through that particular service. Just giving them your CC# won't automatically give them access to all of your credit purchases. Only your credit card company keeps those kind of records.

If it becomes more economical for everyone to do it their way, that will end up being the predominant way.

How many grocery stores do you see that do not use laser scanners at checkout? They're virtually universal.

It's not the giving of credit card numbers online that bothers me as much as storing that information permanently on THEIR END.

Information that is really just betweeen me and the credit card company.

Your credit card information has to be available to anyone that you buy something from using that credit card. At least Google tell you that they are storing the data, how many other companies - such as Amazon - store the data without explicitly telling you they are doing so.

I don't get your problem here. There is nothing new going on - it is just one more competitor entering a specific market. That strikes me as a good thing, not something to be worried about.

If you don't want your credit card data being stored by others then get rid of your credit cards. Go back to using cash. It might limit your purchasing options - but that is your choice.

Unless, like certain people, you make all your purchases using either cash or visa gift cards bought with envelopes of cash with "Secret Squirrel" embossed on them...
I thought I was the only one who did that...:eek:

I've noticed that you don't have any arguments that aren't insults. Is that your style?
I'm mocking the ridiculousness of a statement of yours, again. Seriously, barcode scanners? What the fuck?

Only your credit card company keeps those kind of records.
And whomever they sell it to. What Deep Kimchi really needs to be whining about are the lax rules on the sale of personal information by various corporations, and not online data miners - legit corps that you have to give your info to.

I've always found it fascinating that people who fear the government will gladly and unquestioningly fork over the same information to private companies in exchange for a loaf of bread.
I don't personally fear either. If they really want to try to fuck me over on what little I do have in my bank account, they can try. What I do like though, is the amount of monitoring that can be done. I like that Newspapers report about what the Government is or could be doing to people, just like I like how they do the same with companies. That both are being watched and, in theory anyway, are being stunted from having too much power, which is a good thing. Having the knowledge of what this information could be used for and investigating how it is actually being used are great tools for a society to have.

I'm mocking the ridiculousness of a statement of yours, again. Seriously, barcode scanners? What the fuck?
I'm saying that technology often becomes ubiquitous and unavoidable.

What's silly about that?

I'm saying that technology often becomes ubiquitous and unavoidable.

What's silly about that?
Are you Amish? What is another feasible way to ring up groceries besides a barcode scanner? Grocery stores are huge places, even little non-chain ones, with hundreds if not thousands of different goods at different prices. Barcode scanners are used because they are convenient, fast, and efficient.

I'm saying that technology often becomes ubiquitous and unavoidable.

What's silly about that?

It has nothing to do with your concerns here, that is what is silly about it.

If you were complaining that we have to have credit cards, or that you need electricity to do things, then it would be relevant, as it is, you are complaining about data being stored - a different thing completely.

and?

Why is this any different to paypal?

If you want to buy stuff on-line you have to have some way of paying for it, and somewhere for it to be delivered to. Of course, you don't actually have to buy anything on-line, so it is all optional.

For one thing, they aren't nagging you to link your savings account (yet).

Are you Amish? What is another feasible way to ring up groceries besides a barcode scanner? Grocery stores are huge places, even little non-chain ones, with hundreds if not thousands of different goods at different prices. Barcode scanners are used because they are convenient, fast, and efficient.

I think you're missing the point.

Let's say that you have to permanently hand over all your personal information to another private party to store on their servers - and they are not the merchant, not the customer, and only supposed to be a pass-thru for the transaction. Except they're keeping ALL the information forever.

And because it's convenient, fast, and efficient, we hand it over - hey, because of people like you, we won't have a choice.

I could use the same argument to support government monitoring of everyone's personal data. It caught the Bali bombers, and was convenient, fast, and efficient. What's not to like?

For one thing, they aren't nagging you to link your savings account (yet).

Imagine what DK will say when they make that an option. :p

Imagine what DK will say when they make that an option. :p
Creeping conspiracy! Remember our vital fluids! :p

And because it's convenient, fast, and efficient, we hand it over - hey, because of people like you, we won't have a choice.


Sorry - could you explain this to me again. I don't see the link between another company entering an existing market and us losing choice.

Sorry - could you explain this to me again. I don't see the link between another company entering an existing market and us losing choice.

If a company ends up with a dominant technology (and believe me, it happens fast), then you lose choice.

If a company ends up with a dominant technology (and believe me, it happens fast), then you lose choice.

Has that ever happened before?

I think you're missing the point.

Let's say that you have to permanently hand over all your personal information to another private party to store on their servers - and they are not the merchant, not the customer, and only supposed to be a pass-thru for the transaction. Except they're keeping ALL the information forever.

And because it's convenient, fast, and efficient, we hand it over - hey, because of people like you, we won't have a choice.

I could use the same argument to support government monitoring of everyone's personal data. It caught the Bali bombers, and was convenient, fast, and efficient. What's not to like?
so your issue is that they are an intermediary?
Simple solution...just pay the company you shop from. I don't see having a middleman in any way ever becoming manditory in any way...

so your issue is that they are an intermediary?
Simple solution...just pay the company you shop from. I don't see having a middleman in any way ever becoming manditory in any way...

No, the issue is that they retain the data forever.

No, the issue is that they retain the data forever.
so does every company that you've ever used a credit card with.
And just about every company you will ever deal with. Hell, your doctors office has more information on you than anyone else. And we have laws that protect that information. Perhaps it is time to pass similar laws for all corporations...

No, the issue is that they retain the data forever.

So don't use their service. You have other options.

I've always found it fascinating that people who fear the government will gladly and unquestioningly fork over the same information to private companies in exchange for a loaf of bread.
aren't there cashpoints, so that you can withdraw cash and pay for bread? you may be right about "the future" (using a credit card for everything) but, if you are really concerned about privacy, i suggest you start shouting to impeach Bush. he's a much more immediate threat.

If a company ends up with a dominant technology (and believe me, it happens fast), then you lose choice.

You are ignoring the fact that this is nothing new. Paypal (ebay), Amazon, and others have been doing it for years. One more player in an existing technologically mediated market. Wow - that is something to be reallly afraid of.

If a company ends up with a dominant technology (and believe me, it happens fast), then you lose choice.
Here you go (www.paypal.com)
Welcome to 8 years ago. Population: you.

I think you're missing the point.
No, it is your sir who is missing the point. You are getting your panties in a knot about something that other companies have been doing for years solely because Google is offering the service now.

meh, I trust Google with my information. I wouldnt suspect them to do anything with it. Now the govt. on teh other hand... I'm betting they already have all my information, even though I didn't willignly give it to them. I don't trust them but I really can't do anythign about it. With Google at least I have the choice not to give them my information.

One has to wonder what Google ever done to DK to warant such vitriol.

Could it be because they refused to comply with a governmental demand recently?

One has to wonder what Google ever done to DK to warant such vitriol.

Could it be because they refused to comply with a governmental demand recently?
Google video doesn't carry porn.

DK are you suggesting that online is soon going to be the only way anyone can buy anything? If you are suggesting that then I think you are highly mistaken. If you aren't, then I don't see the problem with people voluntarily riskign their privacy.

It seems that DK has surrendered here. Unless he cares to deny this.