NationStates Jolt Archive

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/27/palestinians.israel.ap/index.html

Boy, this is gonna be fun...

And if anyone thinks Israel is going to treat the Palestinians better than garbage even after this, then that is some quality crack being smoked there. I hope I'm wrong on this, but something tells me it'll be Business As Usual.

And if anyone thinks Israel is going to treat the Palestinians better than garbage even after this, then that is some quality crack being smoked there. I hope I'm wrong on this, but something tells me it'll be Business As Usual.

You're right. The Israeli's will back off for awhile. Then some new splinter group will blow something up and the games will start over.

I give it a week before the Palestinian leaders who approve this start getting assasinated by other factions ala Egypt.

And if anyone thinks Israel is going to treat the Palestinians better than garbage even after this, then that is some quality crack being smoked there. I hope I'm wrong on this, but something tells me it'll be Business As Usual.
I believe current Israeli policy is unilateral disengagement. What's wrong with that?

Not in five posts into it and a flame war is about to erupt.

Not in five posts into it and a flame war is about to erupt.
I don't see how. Unless Gauthier wants to flame himself.

they add pharses that make it meaningless. the hammas and the fatach political movements also don't represent their militant movements, as we see when haniya and abu-mazen can't find the kidnappers of the israeli soldier and settler from the west bank (if they didn't really try, it even worse).
also other terror movements decleare they don't care for the parts who talk about end of the terror in 1967 borders.
add all that the poor experience israel had from the palastinians treaties keeping, and you will get the picture.

And if anyone thinks Israel is going to treat the Palestinians better than garbage even after this, then that is some quality crack being smoked there. I hope I'm wrong on this, but something tells me it'll be Business As Usual.

It's been Business As Usual off and on for over 1000 years. Good call. :)

GI, Hamas don't represent militant groups?

Then why the sanctions and the blockade?

I heard about this and applaud any positive change and congratulate Hammas leaders who have the courage to even go this far. It may not amount to much right now but it's likely a symbol for greater improvements and consessions int eh future.

You're right. The Israeli's will back off for awhile. Then some new splinter group will blow something up and the games will start over.

I give it a week before the Palestinian leaders who approve this start getting assasinated by other factions ala Egypt.

It's two groups of obstinate assholes on both sides, neither who wants to be the better men and give serious concessions to the other. Hell, even in that once in a lifetime flash in the pan when Israel was really, really nice to the Palestinians their own side took action. Yigal Amir, anyone?

GI, Hamas don't represent militant groups?

Then why the sanctions and the blockade?
hammas is represent militant group, but he can't control the militants. the real leadership of the terrorists giving money and orders from syria and iran. the political system of the palastinians is anarchy and the decisions depend on weaponay and not parlamentary shows as this sign.
this don't mean the hammas party is FINE. it just mean they weak.

After reading this, I'm quite sure that Zarqawi was on NS...

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2005/07/stop_questionin.html

(yes, I know it's parody, but it echoes some of the people here).

hammas is represent militant group, but he can't control the militants. the real leadership of the terrorists giving money and orders from syria and iran. the political system of the palastinians is anarchy and the decisions depend on weaponay and not parlamentary shows as this sign.
this don't mean the hammas party is FINE. it just mean they weak.

yeah, those two legged animals.

its difficult to have a democratic process when your economy is arbitrarily suspended and your access to you money os blocked.

back to the point, this is a positive step, lets just hope the IDF dont ruin it by going in jackboot style looking for the soldier that went missing.

yeah, those two legged animals.

its difficult to have a democratic process when your economy is arbitrarily suspended and your access to you money os blocked.

back to the point, this is a positive step, lets just hope the IDF dont ruin it by going in jackboot style looking for the soldier that went missing.

That went missing? You mean the one that was taken by militant extremists and hasn't been found yet?

yes, missing. ie his whereabouts unknown. presumed injured and captured.

Well... at least its a start.

Don't know.

The radio report I heard said it was only a small section of hamas and not the whole org agreed to it.....

It's two groups of obstinate assholes on both sides, neither who wants to be the better men and give serious concessions to the other.

Hmm, the Clinton Barrack proposals, 2000. 95% of the West bank and all of Gaza and East Jerusalem?

Seems like a serious concession on behalf of the Isralies

yes, missing. ie his whereabouts unknown. presumed injured and captured.
And the other side says they definitely have him.

I believe current Israeli policy is unilateral disengagement. What's wrong with that?

Palestine will recognize Israel, and Israel will not care.

Palestine will recognize Israel, and Israel will not care.
As long as the Palestinians stop throwing rockets over the fence, and stop sending suicide bombers, I bet it would get pretty quiet.

Look at the peace treaties Israel signed with Jordan and Egypt. Pretty quiet there.

As long as the Palestinians stop throwing rockets over the fence, and stop sending suicide bombers, I bet it would get pretty quiet.

Look at the peace treaties Israel signed with Jordan and Egypt. Pretty quiet there.

The palestinians ordered a cease fire. Israel didnt care.

yeah, those two legged animals. I didn't use any racist statement on them, so this is unfair statement.

its difficult to have a democratic process when your economy is arbitrarily suspended and your access to you money os blocked.
the palastinians already get few times the amount of money all other nation get, including african states with much worse situations. they are first in the world in humanitarian aid per citizen or total. they were supported economically by all the arab world and europe for dozens of years. even now their leaders bring suitcases full of cash from iran.
all this money wasn't under checking. we know where it end. weopnary, supporting terror, paying the shahids famillies or on the bank counts of their corrupted leaders (mostly Arrafat). the rest went to the huge salaries of their public workers, which get jobs every elections to make them support the current goverment. if you check, you will see that their public service is one of the most inflated in the world.
it were the situation for years, and it is worse since the hammas party won.
back to the point, this is a positive step, lets just hope the IDF dont ruin it by going in jackboot style looking for the soldier that went missing.they kidnapped 2 israeli citizens in the last days, not to mention the unstopping missles on israeli city. how it is israel fault ?

The palestinians ordered a cease fire. Israel didnt care.
I guess that explains the rockets and the mortar fire and kidnappers from palestinian areas.

I didn't use any racist statement on them, so this is unfair statement.


the palastinians already get few times the amount of money all other nation get, including african states with much worse situations. they are first in the world in humanitarian aid per citizen or total. they were supported economically by all the arab world and europe for dozens of years. even now their leaders bring suitcases full of cash from iran.
all this money wasn't under checking. we know where it end. weopnary, supporting terror, paying the shahids famillies or on the bank counts of their corrupted leaders (mostly Arrafat). the rest went to the huge salaries of their public workers, which get jobs every elections to make them support the current goverment. if you check, you will see that their public service is one of the most inflated in the world.
it were the situation for years, and it is worse since the hammas party won.
they kidnapped 2 israeli citizens in the last days, not to mention the unstopping missles on israeli city. how it is israel fault ?


the strong implication from your post is that the Palestinaians are somehow incapable of running their own affairs.

how is the undenible corruption (whatever happened to the charges against sharon jr?) worse under hamas? they havent a pot to piss in because of the blockade and they havent paid staff since the election. trolling.

why is it israels fault the some Palestinians are at war with them? illegal occupation of their land might be a start

my reference to any rescue attempt was i a: hope they find this kid and he is ok, but b: i fear that the collateral damage from some smash and grab raid will have implications for the ceasefires and will kill a lot of innocents, as these actions tend to do

how is the undenible corruption (whatever happened to the charges against sharon jr?) worse under hamas? they havent a pot to piss in because of the blockade and they havent paid staff since the election. trolling.


They don't have any money because Arafat (now dead) and Fatah spent the billions that were given to them by the EU and US. Spent it on villas in Italy, and personal luxuries.

Hamas doesn't have any money now because not only did the previous Palestinian government take every last scrap of money, but Hamas is recognized by the US as a terrorist organization (which it is). So, we took our money and went home.

If they were to renounce terrorism, I'm sure we could help them with some money. Until then, they can suck eggs.

They don't have any money because Arafat (now dead) and Fatah spent the billions that were given to them by the EU and US. Spent it on villas in Italy, and personal luxuries.

Hamas doesn't have any money now because not only did the previous Palestinian government take every last scrap of money, but Hamas is recognized by the US as a terrorist organization (which it is). So, we took our money and went home.

If they were to renounce terrorism, I'm sure we could help them with some money. Until then, they can suck eggs.

as may be, but its farcical to say corruption is worse under hamas. its patently not true.

and i hate to do this, but likud arent squeaky clean when it comes to graft and electoral fraud. its not just a Palestinian thing.

I guess that explains the rockets and the mortar fire and kidnappers from palestinian areas...

Which ignores the on-going policy of assasination by the Israeli state which completely ignored the unilateral ceasefire declared by Arab side, and seemed to be designed to provole a response.


They don't have any money because Arafat (now dead) and Fatah spent the billions that were given to them by the EU and US. Spent it on villas in Italy, and personal luxuries..

Arafat was relatively clean.

Hamas doesn't have any money now because not only did the previous Palestinian government take every last scrap of money, but Hamas is recognized by the US as a terrorist organization (which it is). So, we took our money and went home...

Yes. Thank goodness for the moral guardians of the US, who judge the worthy and unworthy.

If they were to renounce terrorism, I'm sure we could help them with some money. Until then, they can suck eggs.

But as the goal is to support Israel, I can safely say that if they gave up violence, bad words and frowning, they'd stlll be told to fuck off.

the strong implication from your post is that the Palestinaians are somehow incapable of running their own affairs.
the history tell they aren't. israeli leader said once:"the palestinians never missed an oppurtunity to miss oppurtinity".
fro what I know, I think he right.
how is the undenible corruption (whatever happened to the charges against sharon jr?) worse under hamas? they havent a pot to piss in because of the blockade and they havent paid staff since the election. trolling.I didn't talk only about corruption. I talked about money go to terror or any other place, but the serve of the citizens. they get dozens of milion dollars (mostly from iran), and you can be sure it didn't go to the citizens.
btw, israel is maybe not the less corrupted countrey in the world, but we far away from them, as long as we had several personnal cases (which their level is much lower), and they had corruption all over the system.
why is it israels fault the some Palestinians are at war with them? illegal occupation of their land might be a startgaza strip is not occupied for almost 10 months. all they did with that is lunch missles on israeli city and her area from the ruins of the northern settlements. I think it serve my point about their management skills (remember they talked about airport, seaports, industrial and agricultural area, malls and recreation camps on the strip?).

my reference to any rescue attempt was i a: hope they find this kid and he is ok, but b: i fear that the collateral damage from some smash and grab raid will have implications for the ceasefires and will kill a lot of innocents, as these actions tend to do
what ceasefire? we long too much let them go without serious action for their brutal acts. we had all the rights to do it now, after the kidnaps.

why is it israels fault the some Palestinians are at war with them? illegal occupation of their land might be a start


The land ocupation isnt illegal (see UN resolution 242) and secondly, Israel has offered many time to give it up, but the Palistianins keep resorting with violence because they dont get every little thing they want. The Israelies cannot give them more land if they resort to violence. Thats essentialy saying that violence gives better results than negotiation.

Yes. Thank goodness for the moral guardians of the US, who judge the worthy and unworthy.

Yes, of course. Because a political party that makes it central manifesto pledge to "Drive the Jews into the sea" should not be judged to be a genocidal terrorist organisation

what ceasefire? we long too much let them go without serious action for their brutal acts. we had all the rights to do it now, after the kidnaps.

so the kidnap of one heavily armed soldier from a tank justifys an invasion, wheres the so called constant attacks on Israel dont?

whats really going on here?

Recognise, eh?

So they'll say "Howdy!" when they pass each other on the streets. That's nice.

so the kidnap of one heavily armed soldier from a tank justifys an invasion, wheres the so called constant attacks on Israel dont?

whats really going on here?
israeli politics. we try to "live" with the constant launchs on sdeirot (for some years), mostly because it is war we can't win (since their missles are chip and can be build everywhere). mostly their missles are unaccurated and half of them land in the strip.
the right parties want an action for long time and the opposition to the goverment were growing. now, the kidnaps were break point and final prove for the failure of the holding-in.
btw, invasion aren't the only option. israel will act as we think it should in the time and the place we decide. rightnow we aim in the rescue of the soldier and the setller.

Recognise, eh?

So they'll say "Howdy!" when they pass each other on the streets. That's nice.

Only if "Howdy" is Hebrew or Arabic for "DIE (insert epitaph here) SCUM!!!!"

The land ocupation isnt illegal (see UN resolution 242) and secondly, Israel has offered many time to give it up, but the Palistianins keep resorting with violence because they dont get every little thing they want. The Israelies cannot give them more land if they resort to violence. Thats essentialy saying that violence gives better results than negotiation.

Nevertheless, the Palestinians have the right to reject offers by Israel. Considering they usually demand complete military control of the Jordan Valley and over Airspace, I can understand why they would want to reject, (although I still think its nuts).

Also, the PLO and Arab league make offers that Israel rejects. They're both as bad as each other. Persoanlly, I think that israel should withdraw to 1967 and let the UN take over, and decide permanant borders (retroceeding border Jewish areas except the ones behind East Jerusalem to Israel) and building a security barrier. Then, internal barriers and opressive security regimes can be dismantled, creating a more suitable envrionment for democracy to flourish.

Nevertheless, the Palestinians have the right to reject offers by Israel. Considering they usually demand complete military control of the Jordan Valley and over Airspace, I can understand why they would want to reject, (although I still think its nuts).

Also, the PLO and Arab league make offers that Israel rejects. They're both as bad as each other. Persoanlly, I think that israel should withdraw to 1967 and let the UN take over, and decide permanant borders (retroceeding border Jewish areas except the ones behind East Jerusalem to Israel) and building a security barrier. Then, internal barriers and opressive security regimes can be dismantled, creating a more suitable envrionment for democracy to flourish.

If Israel does this as a result of increasing violence, it will only prove to the terrorists that if they continue, they will get more land. And do you really think that if Israel gives back all that land, then all the attacks will stop, even if it is during calm with negotiations? When Israel gave up the Gaza strip, nothing changed. Back in 1967 when they had all that land, they still attacked Israel. While most Palestinians would simply want a country, even if it were along side Israel, the people in power want Israel gone.

Also, people keep complaining about how horribly Israel treats the Palestinians. While some of it is wrong, (and common, do you really expect Israelis to like and treat the Palestinians o so nicely?) most of what Israel does is in order to protect itself. Yes, Palestinians get hurt, but it is a country's duty to protect its own citizens even if others get hurt.

And lastly, people complain about how Palestinians get such low wages, and live in such poverty. Well, every country has people like that. Its not the fault of the country. In the United States there are Latin Americans. In Israel Palestinians, from what I understand, in much of Europe its also Muslims. Every advanced country has the low wage workers.

The land ocupation isnt illegal (see UN resolution 242) and secondly, Israel has offered many time to give it up, but the Palistianins keep resorting with violence because they dont get every little thing they want. The Israelies cannot give them more land if they resort to violence. Thats essentialy saying that violence gives better results than negotiation.

It is illegal. Why else does the US have to throw out all those vetoes? Likewise the settlements.

Yes, of course. Because a political party that makes it central manifesto pledge to "Drive the Jews into the sea" should not be judged to be a genocidal terrorist organisation.

The same organisation which, overheated mid-eastern rhetoric aside, may well implicitly recognise Israel with the next 24-48 hours.

And the same US whose policy it was to support Pol Pot and the regime in Guatamala responsible for over 300,000 mayan/native deaths - 100,000 of them in the 8 years of Ronnie Rayguns presidency.

The palestinians ordered a cease fire. Israel didnt care.
Except a cease-fire wasn't adhered to by the palestinians. Every cease-fire has been broken by the palestinians first.

Except a cease-fire wasn't adhered to by the palestinians. Every cease-fire has been broken by the palestinians first.

And the on-going assasinations had nothing to do with that, presumably, because they don't count. Or the settlements. Or the troops.

By the time Israel is done killing militant palestinians and any others they feel responsible for the kidnapping and hostage holding of the 19 year old IDF soldier...nothing but a miracle will save the palestinians for years to come.
They just ...as usual ...shot themselves in the face deliberately ..AGAIN ...to prevent any form of peace from happening.

frankly unless they...the Palestinian people.... themselves , remove the terrorist from their midst there will never be peace..unless Israel can find a way to kill them all first . And Israel CAN .

And the on-going assasinations had nothing to do with that, presumably, because they don't count. Or the settlements. Or the troops.
assasinations on terrorists who launch missle on israeli city (mostly without harm the civilians), is legitimate self defence.
the settlements and the troops aren't in gaza strip for 10 months. by the prime-minister plan few more ten thousands of settlers will pullout from the west bank.
in the meantime the palastinians keep with their terror attacks from gaza strip. care to find other justifications for the terror?

I love all this talk of cease fires...lol, cease fires don't mean shit. All cease fires mean is that Hamas will not use one of their organizations to launch terror, but use someone like the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade who are affiliated with Fatah who are just as big of terrorists while they are preparing their next offensive.


The Pals should quit with the cease fires and start paving the road for a just and lasting peace.

If Israel does this as a result of increasing violence, it will only prove to the terrorists that if they continue, they will get more land. And do you really think that if Israel gives back all that land, then all the attacks will stop, even if it is during calm with negotiations? When Israel gave up the Gaza strip, nothing changed. Back in 1967 when they had all that land, they still attacked Israel. While most Palestinians would simply want a country, even if it were along side Israel, the people in power want Israel gone.

Yes, I do believe that Israel withdraws from Arab areas a large majority of attacks would stop. The few that would reamin, probably rocket attacks, would then be rooted out. As you so eloquently put it, most Palestinians want a country even if it were alongside with Israel. If there were free and fair elections to a Palestinian government in East Jerusalem, the people in power would change.

Howeve, this isn't about "giving into violence", it's about ending violence. And ending violence is impossible until Palestine is independent.

Also, people keep complaining about how horribly Israel treats the Palestinians. While some of it is wrong, (and common, do you really expect Israelis to like and treat the Palestinians o so nicely?) most of what Israel does is in order to protect itself. Yes, Palestinians get hurt, but it is a country's duty to protect its own citizens even if others get hurt.

Yes, I do expect Israel to treat Palestinians as Israelis would wish to be treated themselves. As I pointied out before, Israeli citizens would be safer in the long term with an independent Palestine. However, does putting colonies in the dragons' den make Israel Safer? Did the Gaza shelling smake Israel safer? No - it's about ego, not safety.

And lastly, people complain about how Palestinians get such low wages, and live in such poverty. Well, every country has people like that. Its not the fault of the country. In the United States there are Latin Americans. In Israel Palestinians, from what I understand, in much of Europe its also Muslims. Every advanced country has the low wage workers.

But in Palestine, with roadblocks, checkpoints, barriers and violence, a large majority of people are in desperate circumstances. In order to have a successful economy and democracy, certain freedoms in movement and trade are needed. These are absent in Palestine. And it is in these conditions where populist politicians and terrorists can thrive.

Yes, I do believe that Israel withdraws from Arab areas a large majority of attacks would stop. The few that would reamin, probably rocket attacks, would then be rooted out. As you so eloquently put it, most Palestinians want a country even if it were alongside with Israel. If there were free and fair elections to a Palestinian government in East Jerusalem, the people in power would change.

Howeve, this isn't about "giving into violence", it's about ending violence. And ending violence is impossible until Palestine is independent.since the palastinians don't accept to end the violence after we will pullout from the west bank, it is giving in to the terror, no metter how you paint it. the pullout from gaza strip, which I supported, prove they don't going to stop the terror if they will be independet.



Yes, I do expect Israel to treat Palestinians as Israelis would wish to be treated themselves. As I pointied out before, Israeli citizens would be safer in the long term with an independent Palestine. However, does putting colonies in the dragons' den make Israel Safer? Did the Gaza shelling smake Israel safer? No - it's about ego, not safety.israelis who will make terror attacks will be treated mostly the same way (apart from assisinations).
as your theries about the ways indepndent palastine will act fail in gaza strip, I think it better leave the safety out of this discussion.


But in Palestine, with roadblocks, checkpoints, barriers and violence, a large majority of people are in desperate circumstances. In order to have a successful economy and democracy, certain freedoms in movement and trade are needed. These are absent in Palestine. And it is in these conditions where populist politicians and terrorists can thrive.egg and chicken.
they didn't had all their barriers BEFORE they start the second intifada.

By the time Israel is done killing militant palestinians and any others they feel responsible for the kidnapping and hostage holding of the 19 year old IDF soldier...nothing but a miracle will save the palestinians for years to come.
They just ...as usual ...shot themselves in the face deliberately ..AGAIN ...to prevent any form of peace from happening.

frankly unless they...the Palestinian people.... themselves , remove the terrorist from their midst there will never be peace..unless Israel can find a way to kill them all first . And Israel CAN .

If you keep getting all excited, you'll fall off the high chair again....


assasinations on terrorists who launch missle on israeli city (mostly without harm the civilians), is legitimate self defence.
.

I was referring to the assasinations which occurred before any attacks by Hamas.

Yes, I do believe that Israel withdraws from Arab areas a large majority of attacks would stop. The few that would reamin, probably rocket attacks, would then be rooted out. As you so eloquently put it, most Palestinians want a country even if it were alongside with Israel. If there were free and fair elections to a Palestinian government in East Jerusalem, the people in power would change.

Howeve, this isn't about "giving into violence", it's about ending violence. And ending violence is impossible until Palestine is independent.

Yes, I do expect Israel to treat Palestinians as Israelis would wish to be treated themselves. As I pointied out before, Israeli citizens would be safer in the long term with an independent Palestine. However, does putting colonies in the dragons' den make Israel Safer? Did the Gaza shelling smake Israel safer? No - it's about ego, not safety.

But in Palestine, with roadblocks, checkpoints, barriers and violence, a large majority of people are in desperate circumstances. In order to have a successful economy and democracy, certain freedoms in movement and trade are needed. These are absent in Palestine. And it is in these conditions where populist politicians and terrorists can thrive.

Yep. Bang on.

It is illegal. Why else does the US have to throw out all those vetoes? Likewise the settlements.

The US vetos any UN resolution that does not condem Israel and the PLO and othe Palestian terrorist groups in equal measure.

I was referring to the assasinations which occurred before any attacks by Hamas.
there were attacks of the hammas before this assasinations.
hell, it is endless bloodship circle. its roots are somewhere in the llast dozens years while some side attack the other and the other side revnge after some period.
the point is the assasinations are justified as self-defence.

Yes, I do believe that Israel withdraws from Arab areas a large majority of attacks would stop. The few that would reamin, probably rocket attacks, would then be rooted out. As you so eloquently put it, most Palestinians want a country even if it were alongside with Israel. If there were free and fair elections to a Palestinian government in East Jerusalem, the people in power would change.

Howeve, this isn't about "giving into violence", it's about ending violence. And ending violence is impossible until Palestine is independent.



Yes, I do expect Israel to treat Palestinians as Israelis would wish to be treated themselves. As I pointied out before, Israeli citizens would be safer in the long term with an independent Palestine. However, does putting colonies in the dragons' den make Israel Safer? Did the Gaza shelling smake Israel safer? No - it's about ego, not safety.



But in Palestine, with roadblocks, checkpoints, barriers and violence, a large majority of people are in desperate circumstances. In order to have a successful economy and democracy, certain freedoms in movement and trade are needed. These are absent in Palestine. And it is in these conditions where populist politicians and terrorists can thrive.

First of all, to the person who said that Israel's occupation is illegal. Israel only gained land after the Arab countries attacked Israel with the intent of annihilating Israel. How is that illegal. Maybe some of the land was taken by Israeli settlers illegaly if you will. Most of the land, however, was simply taken during the wars.

Now, I don't see how you can say that giving them more lands will change anything. Common sense would say that if the terrorists really just wanted the 1967 land back, then they would stop terror attacks for a while as a result of Israel giving them the Gaza strip. Kind of as a treat. They didn't. The fact that they don't recognize Israel proves that they don't want Israel to exist at all. And just because the Hammas may or may not recognize Israel doesn't mean shit. Its one organization, and they are only doing it because otherwise they won't get any money. And I don't know if you forgot, but the people in power were never elected, and no fair election can remove them from power because they aren't actually part of the government.

It doesn't matter what you say its about. When terrorists see that Israel is giving up land because they are violent, the violence for sure will not end; they will only kill more. When a person is kidnapped for a ransom (In any country) do you think it would be smart for the government to pay the ransom? Personally, I don't think it is. Because then people will see that kidnapping is a profitable business.

You know, its kind of hard to treat someone as equal when they are blowing up your family. I will agree with you, though, that settling more areas that should be part of the Palestinian state is wrong.

They thrive in desperate populations, and they thrive in a country with no border, no security. If Israel were to take out roadblocks and checkpoints, it would only make terrorists more capable of carrying out their attacks. I believe that most terror attacks are stopped prior to the attack being carried out because of all the security Israel has.

Now, I understand that this whole thing is pretty much a vicious circle. Israel puts up roadblocks, this breeds terrorists, terrorists bomb, so Israel puts up more roadblocks. The whole situation is like this. Its retarded, and niether side really wants to be the first to take action because they could sufer because of that initially. One side will have to take the first step.

Here is one possibility. Lets say Israel does return to the 1967 border, Palestine becomes an official country. If there are still a significant amount of attacks, Israel goes back in to the territories. If there aren't any attacks, well then beautiful. But do you expect the rest of the world to actually agree to Israel taking over Palestine once they have their own country? I mean, everyone will say o no, its only a few Palestinians, evil Israel is going to war because of a few terrorists. The other possibility is that the Palestinian people try and root out the terrorists, and if there is a calm for a long enough time, then Israel gives back land. If Israel does not actually give back land, they can simply return to the terror attacks. Personally, I think the second option is more reasonable.

The US vetos any UN resolution that does not condem Israel and the PLO and othe Palestian terrorist groups in equal measure.

Yes, I've read a few of the wordings they've rejected. And the incidents that were to be condemned. It wore thin as an excuse a long time ago and additonally has little to do with the subject, more often than not. A condemnation of Israel for building settlements for instance. Thats essentially vetoing a statement of fact - that the settlements are a breach of international law. Whether Palestinians commit terrorism or not has nothing to do with it whatsoever. Its irrelevant in that context. Likewise a condemnation of continued settlement building, the vetoing of UN monitors in the West Bank and Gaza.

If you keep getting all excited, you'll fall off the high chair again....



I was referring to the assasinations which occurred before any attacks by Hamas.


righto Nodman....I cant tell you how much it excites me to see years of progress get flushed away by idiots .

maybe you can explain how kidnapping a soldier and holding him hostage will advance the peace proccess ?

Or could it be you are against any peace unless its on terms YOU feel are proper?

Unless you live in Palestine or Israel I do not see how it would matter WHAT you think at all . But give it a shot.

Explain how the kidnapping a hostage taking will advance the process of peace and make Israel feel safe leaving occuoied Palestine ?

Try not to drool too much while you are thinking .

First of all, to the person who said that Israel's occupation is illegal. Israel only gained land after the Arab countries attacked Israel with the intent of annihilating Israel. How is that illegal. Maybe some of the land was taken by Israeli settlers illegaly if you will. Most of the land, however, was simply taken during the wars..

You are confused between the foundation of the Israeli state and 1967. All settlements outside of Israels internationally recognised borders are illegal. Otherwise you could help yourself to whatever part of whatever country your Govt was willing to aid you in grabbing.


Now, I don't see how you can say that giving them more lands will change anything. Common sense would say that if the terrorists really just wanted the 1967 land back, then they would stop terror attacks for a while as a result of Israel giving them the Gaza strip. Kind of as a treat. .

Bait?


They didn't. The fact that they don't recognize Israel proves that they don't want Israel to exist at all. And just because the Hammas may or may not recognize Israel doesn't mean shit. Its one organization, and they are only doing it because otherwise they won't get any money. And I don't know if you forgot, but the people in power were never elected, and no fair election can remove them from power because they aren't actually part of the government..

What the fuck?


It doesn't matter what you say its about...

Maybe not, but at least its easier to make out what I'm saying.

So basically the whole theme here is "Israel gets to do business as usual while the Palestinians have to clean up shit that isn't 100% their fault while being denied the means to do it properly." Again.

Yes, I've read a few of the wordings they've rejected. And the incidents that were to be condemned. It wore thin as an excuse a long time ago and additonally has little to do with the subject, more often than not. A condemnation of Israel for building settlements for instance. Thats essentially vetoing a statement of fact - that the settlements are a breach of international law. Whether Palestinians commit terrorism or not has nothing to do with it whatsoever. Its irrelevant in that context. Likewise a condemnation of continued settlement building, the vetoing of UN monitors in the West Bank and Gaza.

Luckily the US sides with Israel and vetoes things. The UN is completely one sided except for the US. Just to name a couple of things:

There is only one entire UN Division devoted to a single group of people: the United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights (they are not even close to the worst off group of people. Poor Sudanese).

The General Assembly emergency sessions... began in 1956, and since then six of the ten emergency sessions ever held, have been about Israel. The 10th such session began in 1997 and has been reconvened 13 times. A million dead in Rwanda or two million dead in Sudan might have warranted one General Assembly emergency session. (Hmmm, so some poor people who blow themselves up are that much more important than two genocides? Just compare the number of dead in each place)

As for the What the fuck part. You said that if Palestine could have fair electiosn they could get rid of these people in power who want Israel dead. Well, I said that the people in power aren't in the government, so electiosn don't affect them.

And the second part. I didn't say that whatever you say does not matter. At least that's not what I ment. I ment that just because you say that it isn't about giving in to violence does not mean that the terrorists won't view it that way.

righto Nodman....I cant tell you how much it excites me to see years of progress get flushed away by idiots .

Yeah, It seems to.

By the way, what "progress" is this?

righto Nodman....I cant tell you how much it excites me to see years of progress get flushed away by idiots .

maybe you can explain how kidnapping a soldier and holding him hostage will advance the peace proccess ?

Or could it be you are against any peace unless its on terms YOU feel are proper?

Unless you live in Palestine or Israel I do not see how it would matter WHAT you think at all . But give it a shot.

Explain how the kidnapping a hostage taking will advance the process of peace and make Israel feel safe leaving occuoied Palestine ?

Try not to drool too much while you are thinking .

Its as likely to improve things as shelling a beach or firing a missile into a crowded street. Or allowing your settlers kick the shit out of the locals. But when that happens, you don't see any potential invasion force line up to go into Israel....

Luckily the US sides with Israel and vetoes things. The UN is completely one sided except for the US. Just to name a couple of things:

There is only one entire UN Division devoted to a single group of people: the United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights (they are not even close to the worst off group of people. Poor Sudanese).

The General Assembly emergency sessions... began in 1956, and since then six of the ten emergency sessions ever held, have been about Israel. The 10th such session began in 1997 and has been reconvened 13 times. A million dead in Rwanda or two million dead in Sudan might have warranted one General Assembly emergency session. (Hmmm, so some poor people who blow themselves up are that much more important than two genocides? Just compare the number of dead in each place)

Wow....that made sense. The fact is its an ongoing problem and has been for decades. Secondly its a highly unstable region. And thirdly, if the US hadnt blocked progress, the same crap wouldnt be dragged up time and time again.

Its as likely to improve things as shelling a beach or firing a missile into a crowded street. Or allowing your settlers kick the shit out of the locals. But when that happens, you don't see any potential invasion force line up to go into Israel....
how many time it should be repeated?
the settlers are private citizens, and whenever they do such crime and caught, the police take action on them.
israel didn't shoot missles into crowded areas. the last accidents were old missle bomb near civilians some hours after it lunched (and it still don't sure it was israeli bomb). we aim directly the terrorists, who use civil human shield.

Luckily the US sides with Israel and vetoes things. The UN is completely one sided except for the US. Just to name a couple of things:
.

Yeah - just look at their track record, vetoing all this other evil

1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.
1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa.
1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.
1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement.
1979 Concerns negotiations on disarmament and cessation of the nuclear arms race.
1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports.
1979 Calls for alternative approaches within the United Nations system for improving the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms
1979 For a United Nations Conference on Women.

1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right.

1980 Calls for the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.
1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries.
1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.
1981 Condemns activities of foreign economic interests in colonial territories.
1981 Calls for the cessation of all test explosions of nuclear weapons
1981 Calls for action in support of measures to prevent nuclear war, curb the arms race and promote disarmament.
1981 Urges negotiations on prohibition of chemical and biological weapons.
1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights.
1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions. 7 resolutions.
1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.
1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.
1982 Calls for the setting up of a World Charter for the protection of the ecology.
1982 Sets up a United Nations conference on succession of states in respect to state property, archives and debts.
1982 Nuclear test bans and negotiations and nuclear free outer space. 3 resolutions.
1982 Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons.
1982 Development of international law.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment .
1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.
1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries.
1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 15 resolutions.
1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.
1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2000.htm
Good thing its there, protecting freedom, isn't it?

Wow....that made sense. The fact is its an ongoing problem and has been for decades. Secondly its a highly unstable region. And thirdly, if the US hadnt blocked progress, the same crap wouldnt be dragged up time and time again.
more than african states which had jenocides? or the oppresive chineese regime? or the arab state which violate any human right?
I don't take that right.

Its as likely to improve things as shelling a beach or firing a missile into a crowded street. Or allowing your settlers kick the shit out of the locals. But when that happens, you don't see any potential invasion force line up to go into Israel....


So your argument is ..." they did it first " ?

Or is it ..."its ok to take turns "


or is " lets escalate so Israel invades and puts us back under occupation because all this back and forth retaliation by both sides is really boring " going to do it for you ?

Yeah - just look at their track record, vetoing all this other evil

so now we should justified the actions of USA?
it had no connection to the fact that almost all the UN (but USA) is biased for the palastinians.

how many time it should be repeated?
the settlers are private citizens, and whenever they do such crime and caught, the police take action on them..

The settlers are notoriously rarely prosecuted. In the rare instances where charges are brought, they are taken across the border to an Israeli court before a judge and Jury. Palestinians get a military tribunal and presumably the customary kick in the arse for their trouble.

israel didn't shoot missles into crowded areas. the last accidents were old missle bomb near civilians some hours after it lunched (and it still don't sure it was israeli bomb). we aim directly the terrorists, who use civil human shield.

You should really look up a few of the Israeli human rights orgs. You arent going to believe a word I come out with but you should really go and see what they're saying.

So your argument is ..." they did it first " ?

Or is it ..."its ok to take turns "


or is " lets escalate so Israel invades and puts us back under occupation because all this back and forth retaliation by both sides is really boring " going to do it for you ?

No, its that its not a struggle between equals but between a bunch of badly armed civillians and the military, that sense is thin on the ground, and at the end of the day the occupation is unjustified.


so now we should justified the actions of USA??

Baby jesus couldn't justify some on that list. The point is that the US does what it does because thats what it wants to do. "right" and "wrong" don't come into it. Its support of Israel is not out of belief that Israel is right but only for strategic reasons.


it had no connection to the fact that almost all the UN (but USA) is biased for the palastinians.??

No, it just shows how wrong the occupation is. Virtually every soverign goverment in the world votes time and time again that the occupation is wrong. Surely that should indicate that something is not right with what Israel is doing.

The settlers are notoriously rarely prosecuted. In the rare instances where charges are brought, they are taken across the border to an Israeli court before a judge and Jury. Palestinians get a military tribunal and presumably the customary kick in the arse for their trouble.
it really piss me off that it happened, but it isn't official policy. we had unworthy judical system or judges, and the police can't investigate in the setllements since those settlers also attack policemen and soldiers.


You should really look up a few of the Israeli human rights orgs. You arent going to believe a word I come out with but you should really go and see what they're saying.
I know about that. mostly it shocking.
still, unlike you trying to paint it, the israeli army do as much as it could to prevent harmness to palastinian civilians while keep the israeli defence. we keep as we could our ethics,morals and human values as much as the international law. few accident always happend and it isn't our fault as the terrorists who use civil human shield and launch missles from hospitals, mosques or crowded area.

No, its that its not a struggle between equals but between a bunch of badly armed civillians and the military, that sense is thin on the ground, and at the end of the day the occupation is unjustified.
maybe not. israel tend to end most of the occuption while keeping some strategic goals. fight the terror is one of them, but the palastinians don't do much in this direction.


Baby jesus couldn't justify some on that list. The point is that the US does what it does because thats what it wants to do. "right" and "wrong" don't come into it. Its support of Israel is not out of belief that Israel is right but only for strategic reasons.the UN would vote for destruction of israel, if it wasn't USA. "right" and "wrong" also don't came into it.



No, it just shows how wrong the occupation is. Virtually every soverign goverment in the world votes time and time again that the occupation is wrong. Surely that should indicate that something is not right with what Israel is doing.
or it prove that:china and russia depend on muslim oil.
all the arab states and the muslim states (or state with large percent of muslims as the south-american states) will vote against israel no matter what the qwestion is.
european countries trying to bash USA, or the depend on the muslim voice, or they tend to support the weaks.
other countries just vote becaue of the the UN ugly politics.

and I didn't go to the stage of "the UN is antisemitic", although this is known thoughts of many.
all the countries have unfully legitimate interests. not just the USA.

so now we should justified the actions of USA?
it had no connection to the fact that almost all the UN (but USA) is biased for the palastinians.

yeah, how about the hostage crisis in Uganda, after Israel rescued their citizens from the terrorists, and the Ugandan government, who was in league with the terrorists, the UN condemned them for 'commiting an act of war', i say screw the UN

BTW, while the Israeli police doesn't really investigate crimes against Palestinians, it can barely investigate crimes against Israelis. Israel is fucked up becasue of the terrorists. Its not only that some people die in attacks. Israel focuses everything it has on dealing with terrorists, and everything else is left corrupt, underpayed, and pretty much fucked up. I say this as someone who lived in Israel for 6 years and still watches the Israeli news. And there aren't only human rights violations against Palestinians. There is segregation is some areas in Israel between the whites and blacks. Many white Israelis are discriminated against too. Israel has many problems. Its not jsut the Palestinians who get screwed.

Every sovereign nation votes against Israel because they need oil. The US is not the only country that does stuff only for its own benefit. I'll reveal you this secret. Every country does whats best for it, including all the European countries. Countries with oil side with the Palestinians, and thats why other countries do too. Also, European countries have a large population of Muslims, and the government wants to get re-elected. They need Muslim votes. Lastly, not every sovereign country is bombed every signle day. I promise you that if most of these countries that condemn Israel were bombed every single day, they would have much less restraint than Israel.

Every sovereign nation votes against Israel because they need oil. The US is not the only country that does stuff only for its own benefit. I'll reveal you this secret. Every country does whats best for it, including all the European countries. Countries with oil side with the Palestinians, and thats why other countries do too. Also, European countries have a large population of Muslims, and the government wants to get re-elected. They need Muslim votes. Lastly, not every sovereign country is bombed every signle day. I promise you that if most of these countries that condemn Israel were bombed every single day, they would have much less restraint than Israel.

Exactly.