NationStates Jolt Archive

So, random question here: I personally am uncomfortable with capitalism and uber-free-markets, because the system seems to depend on the interest & banking idea. While I hesitate to say that interest is evil (and heck, I have a bank account myself), it's interesting that the majority of older philosophers/religions looked down on the practice...

In fact, it's outright condemned in the Old Testament, and the New Testament doesn't speak to the issue at all. The Christian church for the first 1000-odd years of existence (er, until it needed to raise money for the crusades, among other things), kept up the condemnation publicly. Even after that, it officially condemned it while using such practices on the side. Charging interest, especially at high rates, was only accepted as a decent thing to do near the end of the Rennaissance period (blame the Protestants? Maybe).

So here's my question: how can a Christian comfortably support our current economic system, given what it's built on?

Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?

Given that exploiting our neighbors is also central to our economic system, a good Christian should have issues with it.

So, random question here: I personally am uncomfortable with capitalism and uber-free-markets, because the system seems to depend on the interest & banking idea. While I hesitate to say that interest is evil (and heck, I have a bank account myself), it's interesting that the majority of older philosophers/religions looked down on the practice...

In fact, it's outright condemned in the Old Testament, and the New Testament doesn't speak to the issue at all. The Christian church for the first 1000-odd years of existence (er, until it needed to raise money for the crusades, among other things), kept up the condemnation publicly. Even after that, it officially condemned it while using such practices on the side. Charging interest, especially at high rates, was only accepted as a decent thing to do near the end of the Rennaissance period (blame the Protestants? Maybe).

So here's my question: how can a Christian comfortably support our current economic system, given what it's built on?

Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?
I don't believe that we should charge people interest on their loans. But the problem is that in a large-scale society, that kind of trust simply does not exist. I do not like the current system, but I personally do not see any practical way to eliminate the system of interest (we can certainly alleviate the problems with loan sharks, though).

Oh, and the first Marxist who starts preaching at me about capitalism is going to get a crowbar rammed into his crotch so hard that he'll have balls coming out his nose.

So, random question here: I personally am uncomfortable with capitalism and uber-free-markets, because the system seems to depend on the interest & banking idea.

Captalism is based on interest and banking ideas? I was unaware of this. I thought it was based on folks operating in their own interests, whatever that happened to be.

While I hesitate to say that interest is evil (and heck, I have a bank account myself), it's interesting that the majority of older philosophers/religions looked down on the practice...

In fact, it's outright condemned in the Old Testament, and the New Testament doesn't speak to the issue at all. The Christian church for the first 1000-odd years of existence (er, until it needed to raise money for the crusades, among other things), kept up the condemnation publicly. Even after that, it officially condemned it while using such practices on the side. Charging interest, especially at high rates, was only accepted as a decent thing to do near the end of the Rennaissance period (blame the Protestants? Maybe).

So here's my question: how can a Christian comfortably support our current economic system, given what it's built on?

Well, not all Christians are big on the Old Testament, and they don't all take the Bible literally. That may be a clue. :cool:

Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?

I don't think it's in our interest to charge exorbitant interest. ;)

So, random question here: I personally am uncomfortable with capitalism and uber-free-markets, because the system seems to depend on the interest & banking idea. While I hesitate to say that interest is evil (and heck, I have a bank account myself), it's interesting that the majority of older philosophers/religions looked down on the practice...

Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?
Interest is related to the time-preference of the people looking for the loan and the risk involved. If the risk is high and the people want the money now--the interest will be higher. That's fine and proper.

I have found that most Christians only pick and choose which bits of the Bible they rigorously follow.

As for my own thoughts on interest, well, like it or not capitalism is here to stay. I don't think that high interest rates will be going away anytime soon.

Yeah, I don't see many people cancelling their debts that people owe to them every 7 years either. It's nice to be able to pick and choose I guess.

Captalism is based on interest and banking ideas? I was unaware of this. I thought it was based on folks operating in their own interests, whatever that happened to be.

Capitalism utilises capitalization, i.e. banks and lending, to fund more ventures than might otherwise be possible. Acting in one's own self-interest is something most people do, regardless of economic system.

I don't think it's in our interest to charge exorbitant interest. ;)
Funny! :p

Capitalism utilises capitalization, i.e. banks and lending, to fund more ventures than might otherwise be possible.

"Utilises". Exactly. Capitalism makes use of banks and lending, but that is not what it depends on.

Acting in one's own self-interest is something most people do, regardless of economic system.

Quite. Actually, one of the more common arguments for capitalism points out that the economic system takes advantage and in fact depends on that basic feature of human behavior.


Funny! :p

Thanks. :p

Thats why I think a country using REAL capitalism country would have state atheism.

and by real capitalism I mean a free, unregulated market, not today's semi-capitlist nations.

Given that exploiting our neighbors is also central to our economic system, a good Christian should have issues with it.

Capitalism is based on voluntary trading, so I don't see how it exploits a neighbor. If your neighbor offers you a bad deal, don't trade with them.

So, random question here: I personally am uncomfortable with capitalism and uber-free-markets, because the system seems to depend on the interest & banking idea. While I hesitate to say that interest is evil (and heck, I have a bank account myself), it's interesting that the majority of older philosophers/religions looked down on the practice...

In fact, it's outright condemned in the Old Testament, and the New Testament doesn't speak to the issue at all. The Christian church for the first 1000-odd years of existence (er, until it needed to raise money for the crusades, among other things), kept up the condemnation publicly. Even after that, it officially condemned it while using such practices on the side. Charging interest, especially at high rates, was only accepted as a decent thing to do near the end of the Rennaissance period (blame the Protestants? Maybe).

So here's my question: how can a Christian comfortably support our current economic system, given what it's built on?

Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?

It was the catholic church, not the Christian church.

Capitalism is based on voluntary trading, so I don't see how it exploits a neighbor. If your neighbor offers you a bad deal, don't trade with them.
Capitalism istelf doesn't require the exploitation of our neighbours but the U.S. and the western economy in general uses it without a doubt. It's also not as simple as not trading with us for some poorer countries, so they are forced to take the bad deals we offer as it is that or nothing at all.

John Calvin is, by most Sociological professors, thought to be the founder of modern Capitalism. Not that he really meant to, but it sorta ended up like that. He consistently told of the passage in the Bible which tells followers of Christ not to place their treasures on earth, but in Heaven. However, at the same time, working modestly. Therefore many of Calvin's followers would work exhaustively, earning a large chunk of change, but wouldn't go out and flaunt it about, not wanting to have "treasures" on this earth. They then would take this money and put it back into their profession or whatnot, in order to work even more (buying timber, food, equipment). The never-ending cycle, I reckon. Anyway, that's a roundabout summary of what I learned in SOC 101 last semester.

I'd like to see where the Old Testament outright condemns Capitalism. Thanks.

Capitalism istelf doesn't require the exploitation of our neighbours but the U.S. and the western economy in general uses it without a doubt. It's also not as simple as not trading with us for some poorer countries, so they are forced to take the bad deals we offer as it is that or nothing at all.

Well, when given the choice, the poor countries want to trade. They are free to trade within their own country if they feel international trade a bad deal. There is no "right to trade" with anyone else, because it has to be mutual.

Usury, leanding money to a Catholic and charging interest, remain a sin in the Holy Roman Catholic Church

Well, when given the choice, the poor countries want to trade. They are free to trade within their own country if they feel international trade a bad deal. There is no "right to trade" with anyone else, because it has to be mutual.
Not sure where I mentioned "right to trade". As for being able to trade within their own country, why would they trade with themselves resources they already have for money that they don't have?

Not sure where I mentioned "right to trade". As for being able to trade within their own country, why would they trade with themselves resources they already have for money that they don't have?

You don't need money if you trade with your fellow countrymen. If you have logs, they can give you beef. You can also use local currency. This is how you start to build an economy.

No christian was allowed to charge interest up until fairly recently. Calvin was the first to allow it. It's the same in Islam. The only people allowed to do it were the Jews. Jewish law prohibits the charging of interest to other Jews.

Any Economics majors want to guess what happened?

The Jews got stinking rich without any heavy lifting. Everyone owed money to them. Suddenly it becomes easier to have a pogrom than pay back the money. Kablammo.

Incidentaly it's still forbidden in Islam to charge interest and it's another demonic thing which is built into western society.

No christian was allowed to charge interest up until fairly recently. Calvin was the first to allow it. It's the same in Islam. The only people allowed to do it were the Jews. Jewish law prohibits the charging of interest to other Jews.

Any Economics majors want to guess what happened?

The Jews got stinking rich without any heavy lifting. Everyone owed money to them. Suddenly it becomes easier to have a pogrom than pay back the money. Kablammo.

Incidentaly it's still forbidden in Islam to charge interest and it's another demonic thing which is built into western society.

Our modern economy thrives on interest. If you lend money to a friend, it should be done interest free, unless it's a business transaction. It's a virtue to not charge interest. However, just like businesses can't give away everything free, or give shoplifters not only the item they took, but their scarf also, the same is true of interest.

You don't need money if you trade with your fellow countrymen. If you have logs, they can give you beef. You can also use local currency. This is how you start to build an economy.
Ideally, yes.

Not all countries have the resources they need to function, so they need to import. When your countries local currency is worthless on the international market, you must export to make money that you can use to import goods.

Ideally, yes.

Not all countries have the resources they need to function, so they need to import. When your countries local currency is worthless on the international market, you must export to make money that you can use to import goods.

Yes, but it's up to countries to do this by their own initiative. The USA didn't start with anyone giving them "fair" deals. And if you want an example where their were few natural resources, Israel did that.

All I'm saying is that if you don't like a trade, don't take it. If you feel a price is too high, don't buy. In fact, by not buying, you help bring the price down for next time.

Usury, leanding money to a Catholic and charging interest, remain a sin in the Holy Roman Catholic Church

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

I love our holy Trinity.

Our modern economy thrives on interest. If you lend money to a friend, it should be done interest free, unless it's a business transaction. It's a virtue to not charge interest. However, just like businesses can't give away everything free, or give shoplifters not only the item they took, but their scarf also, the same is true of interest.

Hey I'm not pitching the idea, it's history.

If I have any objection to capitalisim it's rich kids.

That's a pretty strong objection though.

there is a question of how much money capital (interest) makes compared to labour. But if we were to throw out capitalism the question becomes - how do oyu efficiently allocate capital?
does it just go to the best mate of the holder?

Yes, but it's up to countries to do this by their own initiative. The USA didn't start with anyone giving them "fair" deals. And if you want an example where their were few natural resources, Israel did that.

All I'm saying is that if you don't like a trade, don't take it. If you feel a price is too high, don't buy. In fact, by not buying, you help bring the price down for next time.
Ok, I just have a question that I would love to hear your answer to; why do you think the poor nations of the world exist?

BTW the current system artificially favors money lenders over labor in terms of allocating profits because capital moves much it also favors those with a lot of money over those with little (economies of scale).
The way to address that is to have a common economic system and laws governing it.

If capitalists put the money into building the economy instead of leaching from the economy everyone would be a lot better off. Those with money but no get up and go should find some penniless dynamo and fuel them up with dosh.

... The Christian church for the first 1000-odd years of existence (er, until it needed to raise money for the crusades, among other things), kept up the condemnation publicly. Even after that, it officially condemned it while using such practices on the side...
First off, there is no "Christian church". For the record we are referring to the Medieval Catholic Church. The whole reasoning behind "interest is evil" is not that difficult and I have not seen it explained in this thread, so I will attempt to shed some good old Medieval logic on the subject, as that is, in my opinion, the basis of this thread.

What does one pay for when one has to charge interest? Time. If you take too long to pay, you have to pay more. There isn't any just reasoning as to why one must give more money to a banker for example because you only borrowed, say 400 stones of gold or what say you. The bankers reasoning is irrelevant in this circumstance. Who does time belong to? God. Since time belongs to God, a good Christian ( or any person for that matter ) cannot collect any interest, high or low, as they are essentially demanding payment for what is God's. This isn't based directly on any text from the Bible, what it is is archaic reasoning supported by othodox theologeans in Medieval Europe inspired by the Bible ( interpreting it, thinking about it too much, et cetera ). If one charges interest, then one accumulates sin, according to the Catholic thought. I don't have any idea what the Orthodox Church's stance on it was.
Charging interest, especially at high rates, was only accepted as a decent thing to do near the end of the Rennaissance period...
Not exactly. Recall the Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Knights_Templar#Bankers), which toyed with banking, most notably checks and credit for Pilgrims to the Holy Land.
Usury, leanding money to a Catholic and charging interest, remain a sin in the Holy Roman Catholic Church
How adorable! They named the sin!
No christian was allowed to charge interest up until fairly recently ... The only people allowed to do it were the Jews. Jewish law prohibits the charging of interest to other Jews ... The Jews got stinking rich without any heavy lifting. Everyone owed money to them. Suddenly it becomes easier to have a pogrom than pay back the money.
Good someone mentioned this. It is one of the reasons, among others, that Jews were persecuted so frequently in European history.
John Calvin is ... thought to be the founder of modern Capitalism. ... He consistently told of the passage in the Bible which tells followers of Christ not to place their treasures on earth, but in Heaven ... [while] at the same time, working modestly. Therefore many of Calvin's followers would work exhaustively, earning a large chunk of change, but wouldn't go out and flaunt it about, not wanting to have "treasures" on this earth. They then would take this money and put it back into their profession or whatnot, in order to work even more...
Quoted for relevance.

I would interpret "place thy treasures in Heaven and not on this earth" as a supporting thought to not charging interest, as well as to what you wrote. It wouldn't be in one's interest to anger God if one is looking forward to an afterlife.
Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?
I don't have any qualms with interest. If you think ahead, you can avoid the brunt of it. I am more curious if it'd be alright for a banker to charge inflation on lent money according to Medieval thought, although the question is more modern and unapplicable for the period.

So, random question here: I personally am uncomfortable with capitalism and uber-free-markets, because the system seems to depend on the interest & banking idea. While I hesitate to say that interest is evil (and heck, I have a bank account myself), it's interesting that the majority of older philosophers/religions looked down on the practice...

In fact, it's outright condemned in the Old Testament, and the New Testament doesn't speak to the issue at all. The Christian church for the first 1000-odd years of existence (er, until it needed to raise money for the crusades, among other things), kept up the condemnation publicly. Even after that, it officially condemned it while using such practices on the side. Charging interest, especially at high rates, was only accepted as a decent thing to do near the end of the Rennaissance period (blame the Protestants? Maybe).

So here's my question: how can a Christian comfortably support our current economic system, given what it's built on?

Second question: do others on this board have opinions about the morality/ethics/practicality of (high) interest?


Check up Leviticus and Numeri.
The Bible, and more to the point, God, does not exactly endorse the idea of human ownership of... anything.
Prosecution rests its case.

I'd like to see where the Old Testament outright condemns Capitalism. Thanks.
It doesn't outright condemn capitalism, but it outright condemns usury (the lending of money at interest for personal profit)

Exodus 22:25 "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury."

Leviticus 25:36 "Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee."

However, the usury law only applies to one's "brother" (hence, the Catholic restriction on usury is limited only to other Catholics):

Deuteronomy 23:18-19 "Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury: Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it."

I also have to add that Vanity, Gluttony, and Sloth are also condemned by Christianity, and these are all activities that Capitalism has proved to timelessly endorse...

Socialism, much?:p

I find it interesting that during the period of history when the Usury sin was fully enforced there was a sort of golden age of Medaeival civilisation -for instance this was the period when all of the great Medaeival Cathedrals and Castles were built; and there was a thriving trade network all over Europe. This was because the majority of currencys and Economys during that time were based on a concept called Demurrage (although that name was placed on it later on) that was a charge on the value of money over time so instead of getting more money over time when it was hoarded you would have actually have gotten less.

This does away with what I find to be the most frustrating thing about Interest based economies; the propensity to discount the future. In modern economies it is far easier to get money by simply hoarding it in a bank account or speculative investment than by actually doing something productive with it, but in an economy with a Demurrage based currency this way of doing things is eliminated; hoarding money in such a manner would only leave you with less. In all of the economies that have used Demurrage based currency (going back to Ancient Egypt and all the way to several local economies during the Great Depression) the amount of productive spending has always been immense compared to a similarly scaled economy using an Interest based money system. This leads inevitalbly to Price Stability; Full Employment; Economic Growth and Equity throughout the economy.

This thread highlights the basic jump to conclusions I used to make as a teenage communist. It made sense. Catholicism teaches you to work for the good of others and not to place importance on material possession. Communism seems like the perfect choice. What I and many others failed to realize until now is that there is a difference between morality and law. From a moral standpoint, I am in line with Catholicism and communism. I care deeply about my friends and family. I value them more than material goods.

HOWEVER, when it comes to law, I refuse to make the jump of saying that our government should LEGISLATE my personal views as a Christian. If other people want to be selfish, then they'll have to take it up with God when they die. It shouldn't be up to us to punish people for religious-moral crimes since we are all guilty of them at one time or another.

This thread highlights the basic jump to conclusions I used to make as a teenage communist. It made sense. Catholicism teaches you to work for the good of others and not to place importance on material possession. Communism seems like the perfect choice. What I and many others failed to realize until now is that there is a difference between morality and law. From a moral standpoint, I am in line with Catholicism and communism. I care deeply about my friends and family. I value them more than material goods.

HOWEVER, when it comes to law, I refuse to make the jump of saying that our government should LEGISLATE my personal views as a Christian. If other people want to be selfish, then they'll have to take it up with God when they die. It shouldn't be up to us to punish people for religious-moral crimes since we are all guilty of them at one time or another.

So much for murder, theft, and incest then. Party in Sirrvs house!
The government does regulate financial institutions. You can't just up and start loan sharking, you have to be registered.

The first Christians were true communists

Acts 4:34--5:11

So much for murder, theft, and incest then. Party in Sirrvs house!
The government does regulate financial institutions. You can't just up and start loan sharking, you have to be registered.


In my opinion, the government's job is to protect contract and property rights. Murder and theft are violations of other people's property rights. Incest between consenting adults...I'm not even sure I'd need the government to ban that. Again, people make the mistake that the government is the only 'angel on our shoulders'. What the hell happened to PARENTS and personal responsibility? Nah, we blame everything on the government and other taxpayers.

If capitalists put the money into building the economy instead of leaching from the economy everyone would be a lot better off. Those with money but no get up and go should find some penniless dynamo and fuel them up with dosh.

I would suggest you actually take some time to learn about the monetary system.

I have seen several such things being said – some claptrap about money just sitting in bank accounts doing nothing with no benefit to the economy. I have a simple question for you: where do you think the money comes from when you get a loan?

That money *is* spent building the economy. The individual account holder is not making an investment; it is up to the bankers who have a little more know-how to focus the money where it will have the most benefit. In this fashion you have many people pooling their money to be able to make substantial investments into productive enterprises. In return for allowing the bank to loan out the money, you earn a portion of the interest payments on that loan.

The whole concept of capitalist pigs being Scrooge McDucks holding their cash in a vault is ludicrous. The mortgage on your house comes from people putting money into their bank accounts – same with your car loan, your student loans, and any other kind of loan. The same dollar put into a bank account gets lent out again and again – it is called the money multiplier. The only way for money not benefit the economy is when people decide to keep their cash under their mattress – which is pretty ridiculous concept these days.

I don’t see how you could say capitalists leech money from the economy – quite the opposite. Capitalists put their money where it will do the most good for the economy.

The whole concept of capitalist pigs being Scrooge McDucks holding their cash in a vault is ludicrous. The mortgage on your house comes from people putting money into their bank accounts – same with your car loan, your student loans, and any other kind of loan.

Not to mention the loans people take out to invest in or start businesses, thus creating more jobs for people too.