NationStates Jolt Archive

I mean seriously, come on now. Stop it. Just fucking stop it.

Stop claiming to understand capitalism and then attempt to change it through the the capitalist system. Do think that you have any chance to succeed in a system where they make and change the rules as they please? Do you really think that people who are willing to use violence to gain money aren't going to use violence to suppress opposition?

I used to be a reformist, but I don't think I could go back to that.I see more likelyhood in me becoming a libertarian than a "democratic socialist" because I just realised despite claiming that revolutionaries are utopian is one of the ultimate hypocrisies.

[/rant over]

I mean seriously, come on now. Stop it. Just fucking stop it.

Stop claiming to understand capitalism and then attempt to change it through the the capitalist system. Do think that you have any chance to succeed in a system where they make and change the rules as they please? Do you really think that people who are willing to use violence to gain money aren't going to use violence to suppress opposition?

I used to be a reformist, but I don't think I could go back to that.I see more likelyhood in me becoming a libertarian than a "democratic socialist" because I just realised despite claiming that revolutionaries are utopian, its the other way around.

So...

You're claiming that utopias are inherently revolutionary? That utopians are the revolution? Not sure which way around you meant.

I meant that reformists are the utopians. Will try and correct it.

I meant that reformists are the utopians. Will try and correct it.

Ah. Thanks.

Personally, I think many (not all) of both the reformists and revolutionaries are utopians. Utopians tend to be present in all ideologies in some guise or another, regardless of the methods they advocate in reaching their road to nowhere. ;)

I meant that reformists are the utopians. Will try and correct it.

this thread just confused me...

*slowly backs away*

So basically, if someone thinks something needs changing/can be changed, siad someone automatically thinks a perfect world could exist? I'm assuming I'm missing something...

Well I'm a Social Democrat, so I'll see if I can't take this one.

Well strictly speaking I *could* be revolutionary because I wouldn't complain very much if a revolution happened - I'd try and make the best of it. But I think reform is better. Why? Several reasons.

First is the monumentally horrible record of revolutionary communism/socialism. Without fail their efforts have ended in some form of dictatorship, and more often than not in slaughter. A revolution is inherently exploitable by demagogues wishing to become dictators. Secondly, a revolution is violent and will result in significant loss of life. A reform is supposed to be bloodless, whereas a revolution is founded on bloodshed.

Then there's my opinion that Socialism cannot be effectively seperated from democracy. Socialism and Democracy, after all, are both products of enlightenment ideas of human dignity, freedom and equality. Without Democracy, Socialism will dry up like the rose denied water. Together however, Socialism and Democracy can support each other – Socialism working towards greater human freedom, and Democracy legitimizing and providing a check-and-balance to the reforms.

You see, you underestimate Democracy. Even under capitalism, where the rich have disproportionate influence, they do not hold ABSOLUTE influence. As democracy rises from the people, to the people's will it must bend, provided that public will is strong enough. Plus, most democracies have de jure or de facto rules and regulations, making it very hard for capitalists to change the rules 'at will,' as you say. If the populace truly supports Socialism, it will be very hard for the capitalists to prevent it. Your concerns about violence are well placed, but strange in this argument because under your revolutionary ideas violent counterrevolution would be a certainty, rather than a concern.

But I’m getting longwinded. I hope that was somewhat clear.