NationStates Jolt Archive

I thought i would discuss this famous quote today:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion".

I feel that there are a few things wrong with this statement.

You can't exactly take away the basic instinct of human beings, their search for meaning or god. That is like taking away peoples need for wealth, or a family, or for resources.

Another thing is, it is not religion that causes good people to do bad things. It's ideals, ideals can cause any good people to do bad things. Take nazi germany for example, i'm sure many of those officers working the gas chambers were good people, with a family and led a decent life. Propaganda however led people to believe that exterminating jews and such were for the good of mankind. This shows that it is not just religion that can cause good people to do bad things, it is propaganda within ideals. Ideals and propranda exist in tonnes of things, not just religion.

It's a stupid quote, thrown around by atheists who think it makes them look intellegent, and doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny whatsoever. It is used by people with an agenda.

It's a stupid quote, thrown around by atheists who think it makes them look intellegent, and doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny whatsoever. It is used by people with an agenda.

very true

Waits for militant athiests.....

I thought i would discuss this famous quote today:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion".

I feel that there are a few things wrong with this statement.

Firstly, this statement assumes that all religious ideals and teachings are the cause for people to do bad things. Not all religions teach people to fight and attack. It's been said many times that people just use religion as an excuse and that is why it is bad, because if you take away religion you take away the excuse. However you can't exactly take away the basic instinct of human beings, their search for meaning or god. That is like taking away peoples need for wealth, or a family, or for resources.

Another thing is, it is not religion that causes good people to do bad things. It's ideals, ideals can cause any good people to do bad things. Take nazi germany for example, i'm sure many of those officers working the gas chambers were good people, with a family and led a decent life. Propaganda however led people to believe that exterminating jews and such were for the good of mankind. This shows that it is not just religion that can cause good people to do bad things, it is propaganda within ideals. Ideals and propranda exist in tonnes of things, not just religion.

It doesn't say all religion causes such things. It certainly allows for religions that don't cause it.

Waits for militant athiests.....

I don't even agree with the quote, but he's reading more into it than what's there.

I don't even agree with the quote, but he's reading more into it than what's there.

Are you saying that the quote shouldn't be taken seriously, it is just used to cause offence?

Firstly, this statement assumes that all religious ideals and teachings are the cause for people to do bad things.

It does no such thing. It insists that good people can't do bad things without religion telling them to, but nowhere does it claim that's a necessary feature of religion.

It does no such thing. It insists that good people can't do bad things without religion telling them to, but nowhere does it claim that's a necessary feature of religion.

Fine i may remove that part, but people seem to be adressing that issue to avoid the main issue. (the second paragraph)

Fine i may remove that part, but people seem to be adressing that issue to avoid the main issue. (the second paragraph)
Don't worry, I doubt it will be too long before someone comes on here and insists that it's because Hitler was raised a Catholic. :rolleyes:

Are you saying that the quote shouldn't be taken seriously, it is just used to cause offence?

I'm saying it shouldn't be taken as you are.

I'm saying it shouldn't be taken as you are.

So when it says: "it takes religion for good people to do bad things", it doesn't actually mean that?

Fine i may remove that part, but people seem to be adressing that issue to avoid the main issue. (the second paragraph)

One could argue (I'm not doing it) that Nazism and Communism exhibit the characteristics that denote religious movements.

To resolve that, you'd need to have a detailed list of characteristics (both necessary and sufficient) that determine whether any given ideology counts as a religion.

One could argue (I'm not doing it) that Nazism and Communism exhibit the characteristics that denote religious movements.

To resolve that, you'd need to have a detailed list of characteristics (both necessary and sufficient) that determine whether any given ideology counts as a religion.

Well, i've seen a few debates on this. It was concluded basicly, that it is not a religion.

So when it says: "it takes religion for good people to do bad things", it doesn't actually mean that?

I think Llewdor explained it rather well.

The quote implies that aetheists dont cheat on their wives or beat their kids or cheat on their taxes or tell lies or get jealous or angry and shoot people unless they are evil to begin with. It in fact implies that there are identifiably good and evil people who do good and evil deeds and furthermore that those who are good are incapable of doing evil without the one single outside influence of religion. All of this is so patently untrue on it's face that I am surprised anyone has ever put any trust in that quote.

The quote implies that aetheists dont cheat on their wives or beat their kids or cheat on their taxes or tell lies or get jealous or angry and shoot people unless they are evil to begin with.

In less....charged words, it implies good atheists are good.

It in fact implies that there are identifiably good and evil people who do good and evil deeds

Sounds like...Everything else?

All of this is so patently untrue on it's face that I am surprised anyone has ever put any trust in that quote.

And yet it appears in tonnes of peoples sigs on NS. I've seen it come up in a few debates as well.

The problem with debates such as these is that people can argue what the text "implies," what it "means," for days, weeks, months, and never come to an agreement, simply because implications and meanings vary from person to person due to individual value systems which influence their interpretation. In short, it will mean different things to different people, because the way people think is influenced by everything they've experienced over the course of their lives.

This is not to say, however, that debates such as these can't be highly entertaining and constructive, as long as we can keep the above in mind. That being said, allow me to throw in my two cents.

There is a secondary, less recognized definition of religion, which is roughly as follows: "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." This definition allows for such movements as Nazism, Communism, Anarchy, etc. Anything believed strongly enough can be construed as a religion.

Whether or not it is true, another way of interpreting the quote might be: A good man will not commit acts of great evil out of pure self-interest (that's why he's a good man). However, if he has a cause in which he believes, he can be led to commit acts of great evil, believing all the while that he is doing 'good.' That is the power of religion, as defined above. Why would a good man put hundreds of people to death, unless he believes it is 'good' to do so?

There is a secondary, less recognized definition of religion, which is roughly as follows: "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." This definition allows for such movements as Nazism, Communism, Anarchy, etc. Anything believed strongly enough can be construed as a religion.


I've seen so many communists use that quote though...

It's a stupid quote, thrown around by atheists who think it makes them look intellegent, and doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny whatsoever. It is used by people with an agenda.

Oh, so I'm not a bad person for not believing in Jesus? Then why am I going to hell?

I am a good person, and do good things, but because of religion, I am a bad person.

You can't exactly take away the basic instinct of human beings, their search for meaning or god. That is like taking away peoples need for wealth

I'll take meaning, you can dope yourself up on god.
People don't need wealth. Some 'want' wealth, but by definition it isn't a need.

ideals can cause any good people to do bad things. Take nazi germany for example, i'm sure many of those officers working the gas chambers were good people, with a family and led a decent life.

They were NOT good people though. They didn't lead a decent life. The food on their childrens table was paid for by money earned by murder. How is that good or decent? I've heard of moral relitavism but this takes the biscuit (or cookie for you yanks).

Oh, so I'm not a bad person for not believing in Jesus? Then why am I going to hell?

I am a good person, and do good things, but because of religion, I am a bad person.

Hmmm, that is an interesting way to interperate that quote, however i don't think that it is really saying that.

Oh, so I'm not a bad person for not believing in Jesus? Then why am I going to hell?

I am a good person, and do good things, but because of religion, I am a bad person.

...Hmm. That's another way of thinking of it.

I thought i would discuss this famous quote today:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion".

I feel that there are a few things wrong with this statement.

You can't exactly take away the basic instinct of human beings, their search for meaning or god. That is like taking away peoples need for wealth, or a family, or for resources.

Another thing is, it is not religion that causes good people to do bad things. It's ideals, ideals can cause any good people to do bad things. Take nazi germany for example, i'm sure many of those officers working the gas chambers were good people, with a family and led a decent life. Propaganda however led people to believe that exterminating jews and such were for the good of mankind. This shows that it is not just religion that can cause good people to do bad things, it is propaganda within ideals. Ideals and propranda exist in tonnes of things, not just religion.

You are missing the point of the quote.

Without religion:

A person does bad things - a bad person
A person does good things - a good person

With religion:

A person does bad things and does not believe in god - a bad person
A person does bad things and believes in god - a bad person
A person does good things and believes in god - a good person
A person does good things and doesn't believe in god - a bad person

Only with religion can you have a person doing good things be classified as evil and worthy of eternal torment.

I'll take meaning, you can dope yourself up on god.
People don't need wealth. Some 'want' wealth, but by definition it isn't a need.



They were NOT good people though. They didn't lead a decent life. The food on their childrens table was paid for by money earned by murder. How is that good or decent? I've heard of moral relitavism but this takes the biscuit (or cookie for you yanks).

We use cake, actually.

Hmmm, that is an interesting way to interperate that quote, however i don't think that it is really saying that.

In that case, we have differring opinions about the quote, but that is my interpretation of it.

You are missing the point of the quote.

Without religion:

A person does bad things - a bad person
A person does good things - a good person

With religion:

A person does bad things and does not believe in god - a bad person
A person does bad things and believes in god - a bad person
A person does good things and believes in god - a good person
A person does good things and doesn't believe in god - a bad person

Only with religion can you have a person doing good things be classified as evil and worthy of eternal torment.

Is that really what the quote means, or is it another interpretation of it?
When ever I see it used, it is used to make religion look "evil" though.

i'm sure many of those officers working the gas chambers were good people... Propaganda however led people to believe that exterminating jews and such were for the good of mankind

That's interesting... you'll have a hard time convincing others that these people were good people, simply because they were propaganda'ed into slaughtering people in cold blood.

That's interesting... you'll have a hard time convincing others that these people were good people, simply because they were propaganda'ed into slaughtering people in cold blood.

Well, it was very strict, all they did was press a button. Their our tonnes of other examples, not just Nazism.

Besides, the same applies to religion if that is true.

Is that really what the quote means, or is it another interpretation of it?
When ever I see it used, it is used to make religion look "evil" though.

Ok, I've thought about it some more, and I've come up with another interpretation of it. There's what I said, and...

It could mean that only with religion would you have a good person doing bad deeds, because they believe it to be good according to their religion.

For example, without religion, you would have (blah blah blah). However, with religion, you would have a suicide bomber doing an evil deed, but him being a good person and actually believe he's doing a good deed.

In that case, I understand your ideology argument. Religion wouldn't be terribly necessary. You could have other forms of propaganda and brainwashing.

We use cake, actually.

"That's the way the biscuit disintegrates" doesn't really flow either.

God told Abraham to whack his son. Abraham being a religious man was inches from clipping his own kid until God said "only joking bud, mind how you go".

Killing for no good reason except the Word of God. It's in the bible and everything.

Is that really what the quote means, or is it another interpretation of it?
When ever I see it used, it is used to make religion look "evil" though.
I could interpret your statement to mean that there is no such thing as an evil religion.

Is that what your statement really means, or is it just an interpretation.

The statement is not one of hate towards religion, but rather one showing a paradox that can exist only with religion.

I have no doubt that people use it to attack religion though. I also have no doubt that they barely read the quote.

"That's the way the biscuit disintegrates" doesn't really flow either.

God told Abraham to whack his son. Abraham being a religious man was inches from clipping his own kid until God said "only joking bud, mind how you go".

Killing for no good reason except the Word of God. It's in the bible and everything.


No, the bible's saying DONT do this, its teaching by stories, basically saying follow your heart and mind first, and if you read the bible, God never talks to Abraham after that happened.

No, the bible's saying DONT do this, its teaching by stories, basically saying follow your heart and mind first, and if you read the bible, God never talks to Abraham after that happened.
Dude it's all just a bunch of crappy stories to stop kids from busting up the place. The Abraham story is in the Islamic, Jew, Catholic and assorted "Christian" faiths. It's about a nutty man and his bonehead kids who went on to be the biggest pains in the worlds arse that time has ever known.

Maybe he should have cut the kids throats. Maybe that's what God was saying to him. Maybe he never spoke to him again because he disobeyed Gods instruction to sacrifice his sons. Then He sent his own son and sacrificed him just to show the children of Abraham what was meant and expected.

Yadda yadda yaddda, blessed be the cheesemaker and the Greeks, I mean the peacemaker and the meek.

Ok, I've thought about it some more, and I've come up with another interpretation of it. There's what I said, and...

It could mean that only with religion would you have a good person doing bad deeds, because they believe it to be good according to their religion.

For example, without religion, you would have (blah blah blah). However, with religion, you would have a suicide bomber doing an evil deed, but him being a good person and actually believe he's doing a good deed.

In that case, I understand your ideology argument. Religion wouldn't be terribly necessary. You could have other forms of propaganda and brainwashing.

What you guys are talking about isn't religion - it's called dogma.

Waits for militant athiests.....

Why wait?

"That's the way the biscuit disintegrates" doesn't really flow either.

God told Abraham to whack his son. Abraham being a religious man was inches from clipping his own kid until God said "only joking bud, mind how you go".

Killing for no good reason except the Word of God. It's in the bible and everything.

The point isn't about killing or dying - Abraham's test was a test of faith - God wanted to know how faithful Abraham was, and He tried perhaps one of the most grueling tests of faithfulness for a father. Would you sacrifice the life of your child for the greater will of God?

And Abraham wasn't being very "religious" - he never really was religious, but he was very, very faithful.

Well fuck me I've united the Mohammad and Jesus botherers on something.

Well from where I'm from, Athiestsville, we call in social services on old Abe. That quaint habit he has of tieing up his kids and almost but not quite butchering them... We don't like that carry on round our neck of the woods. We don't like people who agree with that kind of behaviour either.

Well fuck me I've united the Mohammad and Jesus botherers on something.

Well from where I'm from, Athiestsville, we call in social services on old Abe. That quaint habit he has of tieing up his kids and almost but not quite butchering them... We don't like that carry on round our neck of the woods. We don't like people who agree with that kind of behaviour either.

Isn't that lovely? What is it about atheism that appeals to you? Is it the lonely comfort of not having any deity breathing down your neck, bossing you around to do His/Her bidding? Is it the barbaric traditions of some cult that condones sacrifice versus unrestrained, whatever-I-want-to-do-ism? Is it the idea that you rule yourself and not any stupid God? Or perhaps is it that deluded sense of security from having no authority to govern your destiny? From what authority do you derive your virtue?

I'd have the comfort of knowing that if you were Abraham, there'd be no Israel, I suppose...

I thought i would discuss this famous quote today:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion".

I feel that there are a few things wrong with this statement.

You can't exactly take away the basic instinct of human beings, their search for meaning or god. That is like taking away peoples need for wealth, or a family, or for resources.

Another thing is, it is not religion that causes good people to do bad things. It's ideals, ideals can cause any good people to do bad things. Take nazi germany for example, i'm sure many of those officers working the gas chambers were good people, with a family and led a decent life. Propaganda however led people to believe that exterminating jews and such were for the good of mankind. This shows that it is not just religion that can cause good people to do bad things, it is propaganda within ideals. Ideals and propranda exist in tonnes of things, not just religion.
it doesn't make any sense: how can you have a good person doing an evil thing?

Read the thread, find some ideas.

Oh, so I'm not a bad person for not believing in Jesus? Then why am I going to hell?

I am a good person, and do good things, but because of religion, I am a bad person.
only by the standards of a very twisted religion....

Read the thread, find some ideas.
my point was; being evil implies premeditation of an evil action. if you premeditate being evil, you are not good anymore (before you actually perfom the evil action).

the sentence is a fallacy...