NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?

It was founded by fundamentalists looking to escape the 'corrupted' old world, and I suppose that old habits die hard.

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?
I highly recommend American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips. I'm about 2/3 of the way through it right now--excellent book tha deals tangentially with the subject, especially the middle third.

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?

And also a Puritan soceity...many immigrants to America were very religious, just fleeing religious persecution from Europe. While we were founded as an enlightend soceity...we were also settled by very religious people (not everyone...but enough of them).

So maybe thats your answer?

...because our rights, our liberties, our freedoms, all are hinged upon the foundation of the LORD, our God.

If we fall away from the moral law, ordained by the Logos at the beginning of time, we will see our liberty, and our prosperity, vanish.

I take this general idea from Augustine:
Liberty is not having the freedom to do what we want to do, but having the freedom to do what we ought to do.

I think you are greatly exagerating the amount of religous extremism going on in the US. It just appears that the United States is overun by it because of the very prominant religous extremists like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps who cant seem to keep their mouths shut. As for the US having the most cults in the world...to be honest I've never heard that before. Can you support this claim with a source?

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?

Other than Jefferson and Paine, who still believed in God, but had their own notions of God as self-revealing from the natural law, most of our Founders were Christians and trusted in God, not themselves.

Other than Jefferson and Paine, who still believed in God, but had their own notions of God as self-revealing from the natural law, most of our Founders were Christians and trusted in God, not themselves.

Heres a wacky notion...you CAN trust in God AND yourself. I know I do.

*Waits for the lightbulb to go off*

I think you are greatly exagerating the amount of religous extremism going on in the US. It just appears that the United States is overun by it because of the very prominant religous extremists like Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps who cant seem to keep their mouths shut. As for the US having the most cults in the world...to be honest I've never heard that before. Can you support this claim with a source?

What city are you from?

How's World of Warcraft coming along?

Other than Jefferson and Paine, who still believed in God, but had their own notions of God as self-revealing from the natural law, most of our Founders were Christians and trusted in God, not themselves.

Bullshit, source please? The founders were by and large diests.

While there were a few groups that settled in what was to be the US for religious reasons, the majority of colonists came for financial reasons. Enterprise at it's finest.

Most of the religious fervor stems from the "Great Awakenings" that have occured several times in US history.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/256626.html

Other than Jefferson and Paine, who still believed in God, but had their own notions of God as self-revealing from the natural law, most of our Founders were Christians and trusted in God, not themselves.

hence the "In God We Trust" motto

hence the "In God We Trust" motto
*cough1950'scough*

hence the "In God We Trust" motto

That started popping up in the 1950's...

Edit: Damnit, Dina beat me

hence the "In God We Trust" motto

Which didn't occur until the Civil War.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?

Because the money and the power is controlled there by the religious leaders, kinda Saudi Arabia.

*cough1950'scough*


You're thinking of "under God" in the pledge.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

You're thinking of "under God" in the pledge.

Am I? Am I really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust)

Bullshit, source please? The founders were by and large diests.

I don't know if you want individual quotes, or organic utterances. Most of the state Constitutions invoke God, which represent the will of the whole People, as opposed to a quote or two from Jefferson, which your type like to pull out from your progressive/Young Fabian websites every so often.

But I'll throw out a quote from Madison:

The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.

It's because of the whole stupid Puritan thing. Honestly being at pride was kinda scary their was at least 3 christian fundies around protesting pride. They need to get a life and try to improve things around their own communities. Remeber: Judge not yet ye be Judged. & Those with out sin cast the first stone.


BTW: The Puritians were kicked out of Europe for the exact same reasons we are dealing with the Taliban or Al Qauda. The puritans were a pretty nasty bunch especially dealing with other groups like the Quakers, Shakers and Mennonites.

Am I? Am I really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust)
Well, that article says you're both right.

Keep in mind that this country is comprised of peoples with such varying differences in relgious beliefs that competition, conflicts, and rejections of other religions are going to be more frequent than in a country where 97% belongs to the state religion.

Well, that article says you're both right.

Yeah, noticed that later. *shrug* Popcorn anyone?

Yeah, noticed that later. *shrug* Popcorn anyone?
Ta.

If only all arguments on here were that easy to resolve. :p

Yeah, noticed that later. *shrug* Popcorn anyone?

*adds salt*

*munches popcorn*

Popcorn solves all
Polygamy cures all
Wiki knows all
Google finds all
NS...

NS...

Can anyone think of a good one-syllable thing for NS?

I don't know if you want individual quotes, or organic utterances. Most of the state Constitutions invoke God, which represent the will of the whole People, as opposed to a quote or two from Jefferson, which your type like to pull out from your progressive/Young Fabian websites every so often.

But I'll throw out a quote from Madison:

The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.

And that specifies Christian where?

*adds salt*

*munches popcorn*

*nods*

*adds popcorn to butter*

*munches*

...because our rights, our liberties, our freedoms, all are hinged upon the foundation of the LORD, our God.

If we fall away from the moral law, ordained by the Logos at the beginning of time, we will see our liberty, and our prosperity, vanish.

I take this general idea from Augustine:
Liberty is not having the freedom to do what we want to do, but having the freedom to do what we ought to do.

Thanks buddy, but, like it has been said in this forum before, following religious laws out of fear of damnation is nor morality.

It was founded by fundamentalists looking to escape the 'corrupted' old world, and I suppose that old habits die hard.
OK, let's clear something up right here the puritans(thats those pilgrims everyone can't shut-up about) did not found America, they made one colony that everybody hated anyway. (and yes I'm aware that Maryland was fonded by Catholics and Pensylvania by Quakers, but niether of them enforced their religion on the colony the way they did in Massachutses, Iye allso cann't spel.)
Why is America so obsessed with religion, it's because of the diversity among religions combined with allegedly unrestricted free expression.

Also, as for this constitution baised on "God's Law" (which is rediculus, cann't spel remebeer,as any causal observer of history can tell you) those proposing this have apparently forgoten the basic rights of man which constitute the foundation of liberal democracy, those being life, liberty, and property, now property extends to include the sanctity of ones own thoughts and thus the freedoms of speech, press, association, and religion.

Popcorn solves all
Polygamy cures all
Wiki knows all
Google finds all
NS...

NS...

Can anyone think of a good one-syllable thing for NS?

NS in the darkness binds them?

Popcorn solves all
Polygamy cures all
Wiki knows all
Google finds all
NS...

NS...

Can anyone think of a good one-syllable thing for NS?
Well, it's always my tendency to drop an f-bomb whenever I can....

I disagree, it is not obsessed with religion in general. It is only obsessed with Christianity.

I know you are mostly teenagers, or teenager wannabes, but instead of always getting all angry because people expect you to follow the moral law. Why don't you study the Scripture. (Or at least study the Science you claim to worship, but in reality know very little about. But do something more than just play God of War II.)

Even if the talk of demons might put you off a bit, the words of Christ almost come off the page. And, the beauty of the Faith is that you are never too late to return to Him. In fact, the return of one non-believer is more pleasing to God than the sight of 99 people who already believed.

Let's end this rebellion. Peace between God and man is here.

NS in the darkness binds them?

Hmm...A choice...

OK, let's clear something up right here the puritans(thats those pilgrims everyone can't shut-up about) did not found America, they made one colony that everybody hated anyway. (and yes I'm aware that Maryland was fonded by Catholics and Pensylvania by Quakers, but niether of them enforced their religion on the colony the way they did in Massachutses, Iye allso cann't spel.)
Why is America so obsessed with religion, it's because of the diversity among religions combined with allegedly unrestricted free expression.
*Shrugs*

I'm not in the mood for much more than one liners tonight. It's as accurate as you're getting from two sentences.

I know you are mostly teenagers, or teenager wannabes, but instead of always getting all angry because people expect you to follow the moral law. Why don't you study the Scripture. (Or at least study the Science you claim to worship, but in reality know very little about. But do something more than just play God of War II.)
Er...anyone who's spent much time here knows that teenagers are actually a minority. :)

Well, it's always my tendency to drop an f-bomb whenever I can....

Well, I know some NSers are a bit slutty, but...

Er...anyone who's spent much time here knows that teenagers are actually a minority. :)

*nodnod* Indeed.

This is indeed an interesting topic, and one that I have thought about many times.

While the first settlers in the area were religious, the founders of the country were not. Jefferson cut out all religious references in the Bible. He didn't do this because he was anti-God, but rather because he thought "it is the message that is important. The people matter not." This coincides Aristotle's saying of "The virtuous do not act by fear of the law, but rather because it is of their own innate nature."

So, from these non-religious beginnings, how did America end up the way it currently is?

Well, when the Cold War began, one of the most distinguishing differences was that capitalism allows all religions, and communism demanded no religion. Bringing religion into the national identity of the country helped greatly improve anti-communist feelings.

The invention of television also has a large part in this. Preachers were seen by many more people, who didn't have to make the weekly trudge to the Church in order to hear God's word. Combining this with the "family time" that oft accompanied television watching back in the early days, and this increased the spirituality of America.

While this does, in no way, account for why America is as it currently is, there are a few factors for why there are so many varied sects and religions here. Americans tend to want to do things their own way. American Catholicism is nowhere close to actual Catholicism.

The Southern Baptists are the most politically prominent of all religious branches in America. This is mainly due to the fact that they seem to easily organize their opinions and express them in a very loud way. Southern Baptists also seem to be very...invigorated...by their faith, and bond closely with other Southern Baptists. Sometime they become innately cynical to all outsiders, even other branches of Christianity. Their viewpoints can be seen as over-zealous, hate-filled, and Biblically incorrect by others, but there is no denying their power. In part of the Catholic vs Southern Baptist battle, the Southern Baptists were able to turn the holy symbol of St. Peter's Cross (an upside down cross) into a Satanic image. To me, that alone is stunning.

In America, the interests of the people as a whole are often not heard or even acted upon. Too few Americans vote to actually portray the overall feelings of the country, and the loudest minorities are the ones most often heard. Watch some American political shows, and see how the tactic of "If I yell louder than the other guy, I win!" is everpresent.

All in all, I would not say Americans are as obsessed with religion as you think. My viewpoint on this matter is a bit skewed, as I attended a private Lutheran school in Houston, Texas. Because of this, I cannot elaborate too much on the nation as a whole, as most of my experiences were extremely biased towards religion.

I do know, however, that Creation vs Evolution has become more and more of a hot topic in America over time, while it is a non-issue in the rest of the world. More and more people in America are using the Bible to validate their political beliefs, despite Christ himself saying that no nation on Earth was his, and none ever would. It is within our ability to deter from the Bible, and Christ himself says we will be forgiven for this. Many political leaders also talk about how God speaks to them, despite the fact that the Disciples made it quite clear in the New Testament that upon Christ's death, God had stopped talking to the men of the world. After all, everything that needed to be said, was said through Christ.

Despite these inconsitencies, "The Bible says..." is an extremely common term in American political debate. Even when what is being said directly contradicts the Bible.

Overall, I doubt this has answered much of your question. In fact, I know that I veered horribly off-topic, while someone mainting a grasp on the overall theme. I apologize. I must excuse myself by saying that my sleep has not been peacefull these last few nights, and my mind is in all sorts of chaos. I hope that I was able to make clear the points I tried to make clear, and I hope that a huge debate does not follow.

Well, actually, since we're talking about both Politics and Religion, I know a huge debate is going to follow, but I just hope I won't be around here to see any of it.

I know you are mostly teenagers, or teenager wannabes, but instead of always getting all angry because people expect you to follow the moral law. Why don't you study the Scripture. (Or at least study the Science you claim to worship, but in reality know very little about. But do something more than just play God of War II.)

Even if the talk of demons might put you off a bit, the words of Christ almost come off the page. And, the beauty of the Faith is that you are never too late to return to Him. In fact, the return of one non-believer is more pleasing to God than the sight of 99 people who already believed.

Let's end this rebellion. Peace between God and man is here.

If you wish to bring some of the people here to God, you could at least not insult us and witness to us in the same post.

Whats wrong with being a teenager?

What city are you from?

How's World of Warcraft coming along?
1. Why does it matter?
2. Sorry I dont play World of Warcrack. Is it a good game?

No seriously all this "OMG the United States is turning into a theocracy. Run for the hills!!!!" is just ridiculous. Last time I checked, the religous conservatives have been defeated in every attempt to violate the constitution or impose their beliefs on others(the Gay Marriage amendmant, Evolution etc). Hardly something you would expect from a country supposedly under the control of them.

Is the United States more religious than most First World countries? Yes.
Is there something wrong with that? No.

There is no question that the United States was founded on Christian values, and that the vast majority of people were Christians. Protestants for the most part. The US is "obsessed" with religion because people ran away from persecution so they could practice their own religion. But I'd say it goes along with the United States' conservative attitude in general.

At least compared to Europe, the United States is conservative. Religion goes along with conservatism. If you look at other more conservative countries, youn will see much more "obsession" with religion.

Why is America so obsessed with religion, it's because of the diversity among religions combined with allegedly unrestricted free expression.

exactly

There were four posts when I began writing my reply, and when I was done, three pages.

I must learn to not concentrate many of my points into a single post.

http://www.snopes.com/

For those people who insist that the constitution and government of the USA where based solely on god, read under the politics/religion category. Just because your founders had Christian beliefs doesn't mean they start a nation as a theocracy. Or else they would soon be doing to others what they wanted to escape themselves. Government neutrality on religious matters is a must for a democratic nation.

There is no question that the United States was founded on Christian values, and that the vast majority of people were Christians. Protestants for the most part. The US is "obsessed" with religion because people ran away from persecution so they could practice their own religion. But I'd say it goes along with the United States' conservative attitude in general.

At least compared to Europe, the United States is conservative. Religion goes along with conservatism. If you look at other more conservative countries, youn will see much more "obsession" with religion.

Read article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

ARTICLE 11

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,4 - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

There were four posts when I began writing my reply, and when I was done, three pages.

I must learn to not concentrate many of my points into a single post.
:) I assure you that as first posts go, yours was of a very high standard. You even managed to refrain from using any gun smiles...

But yeah, I'd keep it shorter if you don't want to miss the entire argument! :p

I know you are mostly teenagers, or teenager wannabes, but instead of always getting all angry because people expect you to follow the moral law. Why don't you study the Scripture. (Or at least study the Science you claim to worship, but in reality know very little about. But do something more than just play God of War II.)

Even if the talk of demons might put you off a bit, the words of Christ almost come off the page. And, the beauty of the Faith is that you are never too late to return to Him. In fact, the return of one non-believer is more pleasing to God than the sight of 99 people who already believed.

Let's end this rebellion. Peace between God and man is here.

I have studied the scripture. In depth. I have studied numerous interpretations of it, as well as numerous viewpoints.

I know that being a gay is a sin. I know that to tell a lie is a sin. I know that in the eyes of the Lord, all sins are equal. To tell a lie is as large as a sin as to practice sodomy, which is as large a sin as killing person, which is as large a sin as telling your father to go to hell.

I also know that while God the Father dissaproves of such behavior, God the Son sits at his right hand, and pleads our cases personally. Christ's love is overwhelming, and beyond the grasp of human imagination or knowledge. He will forgive homosexuals, he will forgive murderers, and he will forgive theives.

It should be noted that actively crusading against homosexuals is "man turning against his fellow man" which is a sign of the Antichrist's arrival.

I also know that the Antichrist is a figure/member of the Christian religion, and does not realize himself to be such. I also know that there are more than one Antichrist that shall exist during the endtimes, and that many can exist at the same time. I know that the endtimes is not the days or years preceeding the end of the world, but rather they started when Christ died for us. I know that no one knows the time or place in which the end shall arive, not even God the Son. It is the priveldge of God the Father, and God the Father alone, to know when these events shall happen.

Basically, I know many things about the Bible. If you wish, I can defend homosexual rights, I can defend abortion, stem-cell research, and all of those other things that many Christian right hate so much. I can do it using Scripture. If you so wish, I won't even bring the Old Testament into it.

Preaching about studying Scripture is nothing close to actually have studied Scripture, and realizing what it means.

To sum it up for you: No matter what awful things you do, it does not matter. God forgives. This does not mean you should go out sinning left and right, but feel assured that your transgressions will not earn you eternity in Hell. If you believe that stem-cell research can save lives, it is your God given right of free will to do so. If God does look unfavorably upon such an act, he will still forgive.

Preach where people will actually listen to you, and will take your word by your word, and your word alone.

:) I assure you that as first posts go, yours was of a very high standard. You even managed to refrain from using any gun smiles...

But yeah, I'd keep it shorter if you don't want to miss the entire argument! :p
Well, it worked that time.

I have studied the scripture. In depth. I have studied numerous interpretations of it, as well as numerous viewpoints.

I know that being a gay is a sin. I know that to tell a lie is a sin. I know that in the eyes of the Lord, all sins are equal. To tell a lie is as large as a sin as to practice sodomy, which is as large a sin as killing person, which is as large a sin as telling your father to go to hell.

I also know that while God the Father dissaproves of such behavior, God the Son sits at his right hand, and pleads our cases personally. Christ's love is overwhelming, and beyond the grasp of human imagination or knowledge. He will forgive homosexuals, he will forgive murderers, and he will forgive theives.

It should be noted that actively crusading against homosexuals is "man turning against his fellow man" which is a sign of the Antichrist's arrival.

I also know that the Antichrist is a figure/member of the Christian religion, and does not realize himself to be such. I also know that there are more than one Antichrist that shall exist during the endtimes, and that many can exist at the same time. I know that the endtimes is not the days or years preceeding the end of the world, but rather they started when Christ died for us. I know that no one knows the time or place in which the end shall arive, not even God the Son. It is the priveldge of God the Father, and God the Father alone, to know when these events shall happen.

Basically, I know many things about the Bible. If you wish, I can defend homosexual rights, I can defend abortion, stem-cell research, and all of those other things that many Christian right hate so much. I can do it using Scripture. If you so wish, I won't even bring the Old Testament into it.

Preaching about studying Scripture is nothing close to actually have studied Scripture, and realizing what it means.

To sum it up for you: No matter what awful things you do, it does not matter. God forgives. This does not mean you should go out sinning left and right, but feel assured that your transgressions will not earn you eternity in Hell. If you believe that stem-cell research can save lives, it is your God given right of free will to do so. If God does look unfavorably upon such an act, he will still forgive.

Preach where people will actually listen to you, and will take your word by your word, and your word alone.

No, being gay is not a sin, having sex with another man (or woman) is a sin, not Christ will forgive, Christ does forgive,
And the anti-christ in Realation is Nero,
having said this, please don't let this become another gay/Jesus/Bilbe thread

Read article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

ARTICLE 11

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,4 - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Just because it says so there, does not eman it is true. I am not saying the US is a theocracy in any way. Though for a long time church and state were not seperate, now for the msot part they are seperate. However, Christians have many morals that derive from their being Christians. So when Christians will make a law, they will, maybe even subconsciously, implement laws are derived from the Bible. Since Jews and Muslims believe in many very similar things, I would say that the laws were also based on Judaism and Islam. Though less on Islam because still there are differences.

No, being gay is not a sin, having sex with another man (or woman) is a sin, not Christ will forgive, Christ does forgive,
And the anti-christ in Realation is Nero,
having said this, please don't let this become another gay/Jesus/Bilbe thread

Well Christ's love extends to repentent sinners, not those who continue in their old ways. Although, He will still be there for you if you do repent at a later daate.

Also, try to refrain from invoking so-called progressive arguments, although it is a sympton of "free" government education. While there is a case for Nero as the persectuor of Christian in Revelation, give St. John the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn't turn a personal tribulation into divine writ.

Anyhow, keep up the good work.

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?

It's because they're stupid. They're more stupid now than they were a hundred years ago, and they look like getting dumber still.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0823-03.htm

It's because they're stupid. They're more stupid now than they were a hundred years ago, and they look like getting dumber still.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0823-03.htm

And what the hell does that have to do w/ intelligence?

Agreed. Sorry, but I haven't been on these forums long enough to know where the right buttons are to press. We'll keep off the gay/bible thing. Or at least, I will.

And sorry for phrasing some things wrong. As I said in my first post, sleep has not come easy lately, and my mind is in jitters.

I'd debate the Nero arguement with you, but maybe at some later time, and some other thread.

On to the topic at hand then.


A few days ago, a friend showed me a list of US states, arranged in order of the population's average IQ. A few of these states were abysmally low (My own beloved Texas included) and caused me to think a bit.

Tests have been conducted which show that people who have religion as "a very close and personal thing to them" seem to have lowered IQs. Taken before religion became important, or after it stopped being important, there is a noticeable difference in the person's IQ. While I am not going to argue on if religion makes you stupid, a correlation between the religious having lower IQ scores, and the more religious states having lower IQ scores, should be noted.

While I can provide the Anti-Bush, Anti-Texas, Pro-Alaska source of the above, I can not find the source of what I am about to say. I ask that you take me on my word, but I realize how little that means on the internet.

A test was conducted in order to measure how religious people were, based upon their education level. As the education level went higher (High school graduate, college drop out, college graduate, etc. etc.) less and less people were religious. When the Masters sections came up, there was a sharp decline. Only 0.3% of those with doctorates follow a religion.

For reasons I won't complain about here, more and more college students end up dropping out, or failing all together. As the rate of college drop-outs increased, so did the overall religious nature of the country.

I find these events/happenings rather concerning myself. It seems that the less intellectually inclined seem to be the most religious, meaning there are fewer well articulated religious folk left to convince the non-religious. Meanwhile, there are more and more well articulated eggheads who can convincingly argue for more scientific beliefs.

This skew disturbs me slightly, but seems to be a trend of the nation I live in. Hopefully, things will even out a bit more before my life is over.

If not, I can always pray that the Republic of Texas somehow magically re-appears.

Well Christ's love extends to repentent sinners, not those who continue in their old ways. Although, He will still be there for you if you do repent at a later daate.

Also, try to refrain from invoking so-called progressive arguments, although it is a sympton of "free" government education. While there is a case for Nero as the persectuor of Christian in Revelation, give St. John the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn't turn a personal tribulation into divine writ.

Anyhow, keep up the good work.

If you're calling his Saint, I'm guessing you're catholic?

Well Christ's love extends to repentent sinners, not those who continue in their old ways. Although, He will still be there for you if you do repent at a later daate.

Also, try to refrain from invoking so-called progressive arguments, although it is a sympton of "free" government education. While there is a case for Nero as the persectuor of Christian in Revelation, give St. John the benefit of the doubt, he wouldn't turn a personal tribulation into divine writ.

Anyhow, keep up the good work.
First, I've never attended a public school, secondly it's not a progressive arguement, It's a theory that's been almost universally accepted by Catholic theologens,

Bah! I have yet to learn!

@Omnipresent War: I am a little confused. The first lengthy post of yours seems secular and objective while the second clearly shows your own beliefs to be of an absolute nature and pretty close to obsession. Though, you seem to be able to look at Christianity and the widespread American mental slavery to the Bible (or what folks think to be biblical) from the outside as well as from the inside. I get the impression that you are in some conflict with yourself. Well, an Omnipresent War. Is that so?
My own field of study is ancient history and its religions and the strange (and apparently sudden) evolution of Judaism and later Christianity from non-monotheistic roots.

First, I've never attended a public school, secondly it's not a progressive arguement, It's a theory that's been almost universally accepted by Catholic theologens,

I wouldn't say universally. There seem to be three prominent and different interpretations of Revelations out there. In fact, the three of us seem to be of these different schools of thought.

And, in a weakness of strength, I take a small step towards derailing this topic, I have to address the issue of who Christ forgives...He forgives all who believe in him and accept him as a savior. If they repent for their sin or not, accepting him as their salvation is their salvation.

Whats wrong with being a teenager?

There is nothing wrong with being a teenager. I used to be one and my son is one. Like me, one day he too will grow out of being a teenager. Until then I'll just continually tell him to tidy up that pigsty that is occasionally refered to as his room. ;)

@Omnipresent War: I am a little confused. The first lengthy post of yours seems secular and objective while the second clearly shows your own beliefs to be of an absolute nature and pretty close to obsession. Though, you seem to be able to look at Christianity and the widespread American mental slavery to the Bible (or what folks think to be biblical) from the outside as well as from the inside. I get the impression that you are in some conflict with yourself. Is that so?
My own field of study is ancient history and its religions and the strange (and apparently sudden) evolution of Judaism and later Christianity from non-monotheistic roots.
Apologies. In all truth, I have no religious beliefs. I am not a follower of a religion, I am not an agnostic, nor am I an atheist.

I am a man who, as a hobby, collects viewpoints. If in an arguement with the secular, I raise secular points and counterpoints. If in an arguement with the religious, I don that mental headgear.

If I am in conflict with myself, it is only because I am flip-flopping between arguements.

As for the obsession...Well, I attended a private Lutheran school, in the red state of Texas. Most of my viewpoints on Christianity comes from this avenue, although my mother's Catholic influences, and some extended family's Southern Baptist influences, also come into play. Although the viewpoints I expressed may seem an obsession, I must say that they pale in actual comparison to the people I called my fellow students. No matter how hard I tried, some of their viewpoints I could not absorb.

If this confuses you more, my apologies.

First, I've never attended a public school, secondly it's not a progressive arguement, It's a theory that's been almost universally accepted by Catholic theologens,

Catholics at least require you to go to confession before you receive communion, so you don't have an unlimited right to sin and then expect Christ to be there for you in the end, if you havent repented of your sin.

Apologies. In all truth, I have no religious beliefs. I am not a follower of a religion, I am not an agnostic, nor am I an atheist.

Ah, stop there. Quit the outside of it all thing. Supposedly, you believe in a god but hold to no religion. Is this correct?

Apologies. In all truth, I have no religious beliefs. I am not a follower of a religion, I am not an agnostic, nor am I an atheist.

I am a man who, as a hobby, collects viewpoints. If in an arguement with the secular, I raise secular points and counterpoints. If in an arguement with the religious, I don that mental headgear.

If I am in conflict with myself, it is only because I am flip-flopping between arguements.

As for the obsession...Well, I attended a private Lutheran school, in the red state of Texas. Most of my viewpoints on Christianity comes from this avenue, although my mother's Catholic influences, and some extended family's Southern Baptist influences, also come into play. Although the viewpoints I expressed may seem an obsession, I must say that they pale in actual comparison to the people I called my fellow students. No matter how hard I tried, some of their viewpoints I could not absorb.

If this confuses you more, my apologies.


Well, I was confused because you said "I know" so often where a less religious person would have said "I believe" or "I assume" or "It is possible, that".

Ah, stop there. Quit the outside of it all thing. Supposedly, you believe in a god but hold to no religion. Is this correct?
That's what's called agnostic.

cuz the guvmint sux over here.

There were four posts when I began writing my reply, and when I was done, three pages.

I must learn to not concentrate many of my points into a single post.
Yeah, around here its stick and move, stick and move.

That's what's called agnostic.

No, it's not.

No, it's not.
So what is agnostic?

So what is agnostic?

Wiki knows all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism)

Wiki knows all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism)
OK, then what would "believe in a god but hold to no religion" be?

Come to think of it, the only real sign of religious practice in the US are the religious establishments and the occasional cross or Jesus fish on a car. In all honesty, I've almost never talked about or overheard others talking about their religious beliefs. I think the "obsession with religion" is mstly smoke and mirrors; most people keep their religious beliefs quiet.

OK, then what would "believe in a god but hold to no religion" be?

Non-religious Theist, basically. He could be agnostic in addition, I suppose, but his statment seemed to attempt to say "I'm nothing, I'm outside it and objective".

Ah, stop there. Quit the outside of it all thing. Supposedly, you believe in a god but hold to no religion. Is this correct?
No.

It is rather hard to explain, but I shall try.

Some people are just different in this issue. Although I haven't met many people who have this same outlook on the subject, I can draw a parallel to sexuality. There are those who like their gender, there are those who like the other gender, and there are those who like both. Then, on the side, there are those who don't like any gender, who are confused by the whole ordeal and idea of what is going on in the other people's minds.

I would say I am the religious version of the nonsexual. The idea of actually adopting a stance baffles me, as I don't see a reason to.

We need to have government-run education, healthcare, pensions, childcare, and housing because its the moral thing to do, but don't you dare put your morality on me.

Thoughts?

I reject your socialist morality, so do I have a right to opt-out of government-run education, healthcare, pensions, childcare and housing and get a refund of my taxes in propotion to those programs?

No.

It is rather hard to explain, but I shall try.

Some people are just different in this issue. Although I haven't met many people who have this same outlook on the subject, I can draw a parallel to sexuality. There are those who like their gender, there are those who like the other gender, and there are those who like both. Then, on the side, there are those who don't like any gender, who are confused by the whole ordeal and idea of what is going on in the other people's minds.

I would say I am the religious version of the nonsexual. The idea of actually adopting a stance baffles me, as I don't see a reason to.

It's called an asexual. Or for you, probably agnostic atheist. Sorry, t'ain't sexuality you're dealing with. You really don't need to 'adopt' anything for your position to be described.

Come to think of it, the only real sign of religious practice in the US are the religious establishments and the occasional cross or Jesus fish on a car. In all honesty, I've almost never talked about or overheard others talking about their religious beliefs. I think the "obsession with religion" is mstly smoke and mirrors; most people keep their religious beliefs quiet.
Man do you live in a nice place, if that's the case. Religion is ubiquitous down here in the south. It permeates every facet of life, and there is absolutely no getting away from it.

We need to have government-run education, healthcare, pensions, childcare, and housing because its the moral thing to do, but don't you dare put your morality on me.

Thoughts?

I reject your socialist morality, so do I have a right to opt-out of government-run education, healthcare, pensions, childcare and housing and get a refund of my taxes in propotion to those programs?

No. Move to Canada.

We need to have government-run education, healthcare, pensions, childcare, and housing because its the moral thing to do, but don't you dare put your morality on me.

Thoughts?

I reject your socialist morality, so do I have a right to opt-out of government-run education, healthcare, pensions, childcare and housing and get a refund of my taxes in propotion to those programs?
You have a right to opt out, but you don't get your money back, because you still get the benefits of the stable society that government and those programs help to create around you.

You have a right to opt out, but you don't get your money back, because you still get the benefits of the stable society that government and those programs help to create around you.

Those aren't proper functions of government, so I would like to opt-out of the socialist morality, just like you want to opt-out of Christian morality.

But it's not allowed you're saying?

Non-religious Theist, basically. He could be agnostic in addition, I suppose, but his statment seemed to attempt to say "I'm nothing, I'm outside it and objective".
Someone once commented that I seemed to be a Gnostic. There are numerous definitions of what that is, but he said he was gaining his impression based upon the actual word gnosis. Simply, my religion was 'to know' other religions, without actually having them as my own.

If you believe putting a label onto me helps here, then use that. It seems as apt as any.

Those aren't proper functions of government, so I would like to opt-out of the socialist morality, just like you want to opt-out of Christian morality.

But it's not allowed you're saying?

I can opt out of Christion morality because I do not live in a theocracy.

That is funny. Someone whose name comes from the Bible is grousing about religion. [Nod, the place where god sent Cain]

It's called an asexual. Or for you, probably agnostic atheist. Sorry, t'ain't sexuality you're dealing with. You really don't need to 'adopt' anything for your position to be described.
As I said, sexuality was the closest parallel that came to mind. That does not mean it is a perfect one.

If you wish to call me an agnostic atheist, do so.

Those aren't proper functions of government, so I would like to opt-out of the socialist morality, just like you want to opt-out of Christian morality.

But it's not allowed you're saying?
You can do all the opting out you want, but the money you pay in taxes ins't going to any sort of morality, socialist, christian, or otherwise--it's going to the stabilizing of the society we all share. it goes to things like national defense and road construction and the postal service and the electrical grid and clean air and water and food and environmental and workplace protections. You don't get to opt out of that stuff. Don't like it? Find a libertarian paradise somewhere and subject yourself to the tender mercies of the free market, but don't expect your morality to do you much good there either.

Someone once commented that I seemed to be a Gnostic. There are numerous definitions of what that is, but he said he was gaining his impression based upon the actual word gnosis. Simply, my religion was 'to know' other religions, without actually having them as my own.

If you believe putting a label onto me helps here, then use that. It seems as apt as any.

Someone once commented that my fingers were ET-like.

As I said, sexuality was the closest parallel that came to mind. That does not mean it is a perfect one.

If you wish to call me an agnostic atheist, do so.
*shrug* So long as there's no more high-fallutin talk comin' out of you.

I can opt out of Christion morality because I do not live in a theocracy.
You do, in a sense. That's what Kevin Phillips is arguing in the book I mentioned way back on the first page. He argues that the Republicans (of which he is a long time member) have become the US's first religious political party, that they're so in bed with evangelical religion and in such control right now that we are a theocracy in practice if not in name.

Someone once commented that my fingers were ET-like.
I honestly can't imagine ET's fingers on a human.

Sounds sort of funny, actually.

*shrug* So long as there's no more high-fallutin talk comin' out of you.
Do realize that I did not mean to come off as mightier-than-thou or "above you all" due to my viewpoint. It is simply what it is. If you thought that, I apologize.

Though I will admit, I am a bit of a pompous ass sometimes.

You do, in a sense. That's what Kevin Phillips is arguing in the book I mentioned way back on the first page. He argues that the Republicans (of which he is a long time member) have become the US's first religious political party, that they're so in bed with evangelical religion and in such control right now that we are a theocracy in practice if not in name.
What is odd here is that the Republicans did not start that way, it only became so recently.

I've yet to figure out when, where, or why that change happened. It doesn't seem to be present back when Nixon was around, and I can't quite get a clear grip on how it was with Reagan.

You do, in a sense. That's what Kevin Phillips is arguing in the book I mentioned way back on the first page. He argues that the Republicans (of which he is a long time member) have become the US's first religious political party, that they're so in bed with evangelical religion and in such control right now that we are a theocracy in practice if not in name.

True. But, so far, I haven't been sent to jail for being something other than Christian.

What is odd here is that the Republicans did not start that way, it only became so recently.

I've yet to figure out when, where, or why that change happened. It doesn't seem to be present back when Nixon was around, and I can't quite get a clear grip on how it was with Reagan.That's the fascinating thing about the book--he shows how it really begain with Goldwater, some some glimmers with Nixon, but really came out with Reagan. Note that he's not talking about the leaders themselves being evangelical--Dubya is the first of that line. He's talking, rather, about the increasing influence of evangelicals on the Republican party, and how the most powerful men in the country are linked to those groups.

Ah yes, Evangelicals etc. How come that all the televised religious crap here in Europe is produced or financed by Americans? Now there are even Mormons here trying to bring Christianity back to us with a few braindead additions of their own. Also the services form Chrystal Cathedral are on tv here now and Jehovas Witnesses are on the street corners and Scientology tries to recruit folks with money...

That's the fascinating thing about the book--he shows how it really begain with Goldwater, some some glimmers with Nixon, but really came out with Reagan. Note that he's not talking about the leaders themselves being evangelical--Dubya is the first of that line. He's talking, rather, about the increasing influence of evangelicals on the Republican party, and how the most powerful men in the country are linked to those groups.
It sounds interesting. I may give that a read.

Ah yes, Evangelicals etc. How come that all the televised religious crap here in Europe is produced or financed by Americans? Now there are even Mormons here trying to bring Christianity back to us with a few braindead additions of their own. Also the services form Chrystal Cathedral are on tv here now and Jehovas Witnesses are on the street corners and Scientology tries to recruit folks with money...
Mormons had missionaries in England pretty much since the beginning of their church. Most of the first converts to the Mormon religion were British. They didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere recently.

Well they did a few years ago in France and Germany.

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?
I guess there are a lot of straight white males who are freaked out by all the gays and women and brown people, so the straight white males need to reassure themselves that their straight, white, male God is the super-powered mack daddy of the entire universe. Then they find weak-willed females to enslave, so they can breed up more terrified straight white males and weak-willed females.

It's the circle of life.

Why is the US so obsessed with religion?

I have noticed a strong interest in religion and spirituality in the US, but I wouldn't call it an obsession. We save our obsession for stupid celebrities, generally. ;)

Especially Christianity?

Well it's the biggest one here, duh. :p

Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else?

Evidence for there being more sects and cults than anywhere else? And if it is the case that the US has a greater number of sects and cults per capita, then perhaps we ought to look at the number of different cultures and viewpoints that exist in the US because of it being an immigrant nation.

And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common?

Belief-based racism?

After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious.

I'm a Christian humanist, by the way. Just thought you might want to know that.

What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?

A long time ago, in a land far, far away...

Europe, after the Reformation. The Christian religion is continuing to fracture into different sects, and a number of them are being persecuted by other groups. A few of these brave souls cross the Atlantic to the New World, and God is with them. They establish themselves, and their descendants grow in number over the generations.

A bit dramatized, but you get the idea.

The Pilgrims went to Amsterdam first, hearing it would allow them their religious practices.

As you can probably tell by where they ended up, Amsterdam allowed a little too much for their liking.

Why is the US so obsessed with religion? Especially Christianity? Why are there more sects and cults than anywhere else? And why is belief-based racism and sectarianism so common? After all the US was once founded on the priciples of humanism in the age of Enlightenment which is inherently unreligious. What is this whole Puritan fundamentalism/extremism thing going on in the US anyways?


Hmm... I'm not sure about this, but looking up facts about some eastern religions such as Hinduism might show a slight flaw in that claim... they tend to have a cult for every God they have... and they have plenty :)

Which definition of the word 'cult' are we using here? Are we defining 'cult' as a religion, or are we using the Heaven's Gate version of 'cult'?

Catholics at least require you to go to confession before you receive communion, so you don't have an unlimited right to sin and then expect Christ to be there for you in the end, if you havent repented of your sin.
I never said that, perhaps your thinking of Omnipresent War.
My point about the will/does it that he's not waiting for the end of days to forgive, he forgives now if you ask for it. And I am Catholic.

Which definition of the word 'cult' are we using here? Are we defining 'cult' as a religion, or are we using the Heaven's Gate version of 'cult'?

I'm not sure. And I'm not sure it matters for the purposes of the discussion.

But sometimes there are cults that are based on a religion, rather than being just a member of a religion, or just a cult.

Which definition of the word 'cult' are we using here? Are we defining 'cult' as a religion, or are we using the Heaven's Gate version of 'cult'?
cult as religion. like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are bible-based Yah-cult.

What is odd here is that the Republicans did not start that way, it only became so recently.

I've yet to figure out when, where, or why that change happened. It doesn't seem to be present back when Nixon was around, and I can't quite get a clear grip on how it was with Reagan.

Good point. Here's another one: The Democratic party wasn't always seen as totally anti-war, and until they clear that perception or change it by policy action, they aren't going to win an election. Kennedy was a beloved President, a Democrat, and not-anti war. So was FDR. The list probably continues, but political science was not my major.

A lot gets "attached" to political parties in order to capture large blocks of votes from a lazy, allegiance-swearing public. Nobody wants to think; they just want to read their party's website, agree, and vote.

In general, the Republican party is seen as being pro-business, conservative, religious and willing to use the military instrument. Given that most people are in some way religious, they're going to get the vote.

The Democratic party is currently viewed as liberal, non-religious and unwilling to use the military instrument. This last factor is probably the largest reason why they haven't been in power for a while. We just don't live in a peaceful world. So, that's pretty much 2 strikes against the Democratic party: Most people are religious, most people think that war is sometimes necessary.

We don't live in a theocracy, or anything resembling one. The U.S. Constitution forbids governmental establishment or involvement in religion, the Supreme Court makes the call, and we go from there. The President can't base policies on his own or anyone else's religion: such moves would get struck down by the Supreme Court as Unconstitutional. Even if the House and Senate were 100% Republican, no "religious" law would be enacted.

If you want to see a "theocracy", take a look at Iran: the real leader of the country is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-Khameni (who has been in power since 1989) and the "constitution" is really just a codification of Islamic principles of government. The "President" of Iran is really just a figurehead.

What is odd here is that the Republicans did not start that way, it only became so recently.

I've yet to figure out when, where, or why that change happened. It doesn't seem to be present back when Nixon was around, and I can't quite get a clear grip on how it was with Reagan.

Good point. Here's another one: The Democratic party wasn't always seen as totally anti-war, and until they clear that perception or change it by policy action, they aren't going to win an election. Kennedy was a beloved President, a Democrat, and not-anti war. So was FDR. The list probably continues, but political science was not my major.

A lot gets "attached" to political parties in order to capture large blocks of votes from a lazy, allegiance-swearing public. Nobody wants to think; they just want to read their party's website, agree, and vote.

In general, the Republican party is seen as being pro-business, conservative, religious and willing to use the military instrument. Given that most people are in some way religious, they're going to get the vote.

The Democratic party is currently viewed as liberal, non-religious and unwilling to use the military instrument. This last factor is probably the largest reason why they haven't been in power for a while. We just don't live in a peaceful world. So, that's pretty much 2 strikes against the Democratic party: Most people are religious, most people think that war is sometimes necessary.

We don't live in a theocracy, or anything resembling one. The U.S. Constitution forbids governmental establishment or involvement in religion, the Supreme Court makes the call, and we go from there. The President can't base policies on his own or anyone else's religion: such moves would get struck down by the Supreme Court as Unconstitutional. Even if the House and Senate were 100% Republican, no "religious" law would be enacted.

If you want to see a "theocracy", take a look at Iran: the real leader of the country is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-Khameni (who has been in power since 1989) and the "constitution" is really just a codification of Islamic principles of government. The "President" of Iran is really just a figurehead.

We don't live in a theocracy, or anything resembling one. The U.S. Constitution forbids governmental establishment or involvement in religion, the Supreme Court makes the call, and we go from there. The President can't base policies on his own or anyone else's religion: such moves would get struck down by the Supreme Court as Unconstitutional. Even if the House and Senate were 100% Republican, no "religious" law would be enacted.

If you want to see a "theocracy", take a look at Iran: the real leader of the country is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-Khameni (who has been in power since 1989) and the "constitution" is really just a codification of Islamic principles of government. The "President" of Iran is really just a figurehead.

Hmm I guess u have never heard of the Ayatollah Rushdoony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousas_John_Rushdoony)

The Rise of religion as a major force in the U.S is further proof of what has happened in the last 25 years because of the dumming-down of America. The fact that far-right fundmentalism only appeals to people that are not educated is proof that America needs to educate more people.

As Karl Marx would say: Religion is the opiate of the masses


The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah
The shareef don't like it
Rockin' the Casbah
Rock the Casbah

*cough1950'scough*

Actually 1864. On the US two cent coin.

Just because it says so there, does not eman it is true.
Right, because the people who founded the fricking United States obviously wouldn't know what principles it was founded upon. :rolleyes:

Actually 1864. On the US two cent coin.
Wait, we had a 2 cent coin? Man, they got rid of the 2 cent coins AND the $2 bills. That's so harsh. I would totally use those.

Wait, we had a 2 cent coin? Man, they got rid of the 2 cent coins AND the $2 bills. That's so harsh. I would totally use those.
Yep. We had a 2-cent coin.

Yep. We had a 2-cent coin.
Whose head was on it?

Whose head was on it?
No head. Just "2 cents" on one side and a stylized design on the other. Mine's a bit worn, so I have difficulty figuring out what the design is.

Because we were founded on Christianity, and it's constantly under attack by pretty much everyone.

Because we were founded on Christianity, and it's constantly under attack by pretty much everyone.
Read the thread. See the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. Read that. See how it says that the U.S. was not founded on Christianity. Open mouth. Insert foot.

Read the thread. See the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. Read that. See how it says that the U.S. was not founded on Christianity. Open mouth. Insert foot.
I like you.

I'm guessing a lot of people find The Bible really really sexalicious. :)

I'm guessing a lot of people find The Bible really really sexalicious. :)
As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.

Damn straight.

Read the thread. See the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. Read that. See how it says that the U.S. was not founded on Christianity. Open mouth. Insert foot.

ROFL...

Not.

Look at the original documents.....notice they didn't leave out...umm....GOD.

I'm guessing a lot of people find The Bible really really sexalicious. :)

The Song of Solomon is referred to as The Sex book of the bible. Solomon had a way with his wife, for sure.

Granted, I'm not sure I'd want my wife referring to me as a herd of goats :p

Look at the original documents.....notice they didn't leave out...umm....GOD.Yes. But which one?