NationStates Jolt Archive


Bush may not be "incompetent"

Unabashed Greed
26-06-2006, 18:10
(c)The Rockridge Institute, 2006 (We invite the free distribution of this piece)

Progressives have fallen into a trap. Emboldened by President Bush’s plummeting approval ratings, progressives increasingly point to Bush's "failures" and label him and his administration as incompetent. For example, Nancy Pelosi said “The situation in Iraq and the reckless economic policies in the United States speak to one issue for me, and that is the competence of our leader." Self-satisfying as this criticism may be, it misses the bigger point. Bush’s disasters — Katrina, the Iraq War, the budget deficit — are not so much a testament to his incompetence or a failure of execution. Rather, they are the natural, even inevitable result of his conservative governing philosophy. It is conservatism itself, carried out according to plan, that is at fault. Bush will not be running again, but other conservatives will. His governing philosophy is theirs as well. We should be putting the onus where it belongs, on all conservative office holders and candidates who would lead us off the same cliff.

To Bush’s base, his bumbling folksiness is part of his charm — it fosters conservative populism. Bush plays up this image by proudly stating his lack of interest in reading and current events, his fondness for naps and vacations and his self-deprecating jokes. This image causes the opposition to underestimate his capacities — disregarding him as a complete idiot — and deflects criticism of his conservative allies. If incompetence is the problem, it’s all about Bush. But, if conservatism is the problem, it is about a set of ideas, a movement and its many adherents.

The idea that Bush is incompetent is a curious one. Consider the following (incomplete) list of major initiatives the Bush administration, with a loyal conservative Congress, has accomplished:

* Centralizing power within the executive branch to an unprecedented degree
* Starting two major wars, one started with questionable intelligence and in a manner with which the military disagreed
* Placing on the Supreme Court two far-right justices, and stacking the lower federal courts with many more
* Cutting taxes during wartime, an unprecedented event
* Passing a number of controversial bills such as the PATRIOT Act, the No Child Left Behind Act, the Medicare Drug bill, the Bankruptcy bill and a number of massive tax cuts
* Rolling back and refusing to enforce a host of basic regulatory protections
* Appointing industry officials to oversee regulatory agencies
* Establishing a greater role for religion through faith-based initiatives
* Passing Orwellian-titled legislation assaulting the environment — “The Healthy Forests Act” and the “Clear Skies Initiative” — to deforest public lands, and put more pollution in our skies
* Winning re-election and solidifying his party’s grip on Congress

These aren’t signs of incompetence. As should be painfully clear, the Bush administration has been overwhelmingly competent in advancing its conservative vision. It has been all too effective in achieving its goals by determinedly pursuing a conservative philosophy.

It’s not Bush the man who has been so harmful, it’s the conservative agenda.

The Conservative Agenda

Conservative philosophy has three fundamental tenets: individual initiative, that is, government’s positive role in people’s lives outside of the military and police should be minimized; the President is the moral authority; and free markets are enough to foster freedom and opportunity.

The conservative vision for government is to shrink it – to “starve the beast” in Conservative Grover Norquist’s words. The conservative tagline for this rationale is that “you can spend your money better than the government can.” Social programs are considered unnecessary or “discretionary” since the primary role of government is to defend the country’s border and police its interior. Stewardship of the commons, such as allocation of healthcare or energy policy, is left to people’s own initiative within the free market. Where profits cannot be made — conservation, healthcare for the poor — charity is meant to replace justice and the government should not be involved.

Given this philosophy, then, is it any wonder that the government wasn’t there for the residents of Louisiana and Mississippi in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? Conservative philosophy places emphasis on the individual acting alone, independent of anything the government could provide. Some conservative Sunday morning talk show guests suggested that those who chose to live in New Orleans accepted the risk of a devastating hurricane, the implication being that they thus forfeited any entitlement to government assistance. If the people of New Orleans suffered, it was because of their own actions, their own choices and their own lack of preparedness. Bush couldn’t have failed if he bore no responsibility.

The response to Hurricane Katrina — rather, the lack of response — was what one should expect from a philosophy that espouses that the government can have no positive role in its citizen’s lives. This response was not about Bush’s incompetence, it was a conservative, shrink-government response to a natural disaster.

Another failure of this administration during the Katrina fiasco was its wholesale disregard of the numerous and serious hurricane warnings. But this failure was a natural outgrowth of the conservative insistence on denying the validity of global warming, not ineptitude. Conservatives continue to deny the validity of global warming, because it runs contrary to their moral system. Recognizing global warming would call for environmental regulation and governmental efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Regulation is a perceived interference with the free-market, Conservatives’ golden calf. So, the predictions of imminent hurricanes — based on recognizing global warming — were not heeded. Conservative free market convictions trumped the hurricane warnings.

Our budget deficit is not the result of incompetent fiscal management. It too is an outgrowth of conservative philosophy. What better way than massive deficits to rid social programs of their funding?

In Iraq, we also see the impact of philosophy as much as a failure of execution.

The idea for the war itself was born out of deep conservative convictions about the nature and capacity of US military force. Among the Project for a New American Century’s statement of principles (signed in 1997 by a who’s who of the architects of the Iraq war — Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby among others) are four critical points:

* we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future
* we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values
* we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad
* we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Implicit in these ideas is that the United States military can spread democracy through the barrel of a gun. Our military might and power can be a force for good.

It also indicates that the real motive behind the Iraq war wasn’t to stop Iraq’s pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, but was a test of neoconservative theory that the US military could reshape Middle East geo-politics. The manipulation and disregard of intelligence to sell the war was not incompetence, it was the product of a conservative agenda.

Unfortunately, this theory exalts a hubristic vision over the lessons of history. It neglects the realization that there is a limit to a foreign army’s ability to shape foreign politics for the good. Our military involvement in Vietnam, Lebanon, the Philippines, Cuba (prior to Castro) and Panama, or European imperialist endeavors around the globe should have taught us this lesson. Democracy needs to be an organic, homegrown movement, as it was in this country. If we believe so deeply in our ideals, they will speak for themselves and inspire others.

During the debate over Iraq, the conservative belief in the unquestioned authority and moral leadership of the President helped shape public support. We see this deference to the President constantly: when Conservatives call those questioning the President’s military decisions “unpatriotic”; when Conservatives defend the executive branch’s use of domestic spying in the war on terror; when Bush simply refers to himself as the “decider.” “I support our President” was a common justification of assent to the Iraq policy.

Additionally, as the implementer of the neoconservative vision and an unquestioned moral authority, our President felt he had no burden to forge international consensus or listen to the critiques of our allies. “You’re with us, or you’re against us,” he proclaimed after 9/11.

Much criticism continues to be launched against this administration for ineptitude in its reconstruction efforts. Tragically, it is here too that the administration’s actions have been shaped less by ineptitude than by deeply held conservative convictions about the role of government.

As noted above, Conservatives believe that government’s role is limited to security and maintaining a free market. Given this conviction, it’s no accident that administration policies have focused almost exclusively on the training of Iraqi police, and US access to the newly free Iraqi market — the invisible hand of the market will take care of the rest. Indeed, George Packer has recently reported that the reconstruction effort in Iraq is nearing its end (“The Lessons of Tal Affar,” The New Yorker, April 10th, 2006). Iraqis must find ways to rebuild themselves, and the free market we have constructed for them is supposed to do this. This is not ineptitude. This is the result of deep convictions over the nature of freedom and the responsibilities of governments to their people.

Finally, many of the miscalculations are the result of a conservative analytic focus on narrow causes and effects, rather than mere incompetence. Evidence for this focus can be seen in conservative domestic policies: Crime policy is based on punishing the criminals, independent of any effort to remedy the larger social issues that cause crime; immigration policy focuses on border issues and the immigrants, and ignores the effects of international and domestic economic policy on population migration; environmental policy is based on what profits there are to be gained or lost today, without attention paid to what the immeasurable long-term costs will be to the shared resource of our environment; education policy, in the form of vouchers, ignores the devastating effects that dismantling the public school system will have on our whole society.

Is it any surprise that the systemic impacts of the Iraq invasion were not part of the conservative moral or strategic calculus used in pursuing the war?

The conservative war rhetoric focused narrowly on ousting Saddam — he was an evil dictator, and evil cannot be tolerated, period. The moral implications of unleashing social chaos and collateral damage in addition to the lessons of history were not relevant concerns.

As a consequence, we expected to be greeted as liberators. The conservative plan failed to appreciate the complexities of the situation that would have called for broader contingency planning. It lacked an analysis of what else would happen in Iraq and the Middle East as a result of ousting the Hussein Government, such as an Iranian push to obtain nuclear weapons.

Joe Biden recently said, “if I had known the president was going to be this incompetent in his administration, I would not have given him the authority [to go to war].” Had Bush actually been incompetent, he would have never been able to lead us to war in Iraq. Had Bush been incompetent, he would not have been able to ram through hundreds of billions of dollars in tax cuts. Had Bush been incompetent, he would have been blocked from stacking the courts with right-wing judges. Incompetence, on reflection, might have actually been better for the country.

Hidden Successes

Perhaps the biggest irony of the Bush-is-incompetent frame is that these “failures” — Iraq, Katrina and the budget deficit — have been successes in terms of advancing the conservative agenda.

One of the goals of Conservatives is to keep people from relying on the federal government. Under Bush, FEMA was reorganized to no longer be a first responder in major natural disasters, but to provide support for local agencies. This led to the disastrous response to Hurricane Katrina. Now citizens, as well as local and state governments, have become distrustful of the federal government’s capacity to help ordinary citizens. Though Bush’s popularity may have suffered, enhancing the perception of federal government as inept turned out to be a conservative victory.

Conservatives also strive to get rid of protective agencies and social programs. The deficit Bush created through irresponsible tax cuts and a costly war in Iraq will require drastic budget cuts to remedy. Those cuts, conservatives know, won’t come from military spending, particularly when they raise the constant specter of war. Instead, the cuts will be from what Conservatives have begun to call “non-military, discretionary spending;” that is, the programs that contribute to the common good like the FDA, EPA, FCC, FEMA, OSHA and the NLRB. Yet another success for the conservative agenda.

Both Iraq and Katrina have enriched the coffers of the conservative corporate elite, thus further advancing the conservative agenda. Halliburton, Lockhead Martin and US oil companies have enjoyed huge profit margins in the last six years. Taking Iraq’s oil production off-line in the face of rising international demand meant prices would rise, making the oil inventories of Exxon and other firms that much more valuable, leading to record profits. The destruction wrought by Katrina and Iraq meant billions in reconstruction contracts. The war in Iraq (and the war in Afghanistan) meant billions in military equipment contracts. Was there any doubt where those contracts would go? Chalk up another success for Bush’s conservative agenda.

Bush also used Katrina as an opportunity to suspend the environmental and labor protection laws that Conservatives despise so much. In the wake of Katrina, environmental standards for oil refineries were temporarily suspended to increase production. Labor laws are being thwarted to drive down the cost of reconstruction efforts. So, amidst these “disasters,” Conservatives win again.

Where most Americans see failure in Iraq – George Miller recently called Iraq a “blunder of historic proportions” – conservative militarists are seeing many successes. Conservatives stress the importance of our military — our national pride and worth is expressed through its power and influence. Permanent bases are being constructed as planned in Iraq, and America has shown the rest of the world that we can and will preemptively strike with little provocation. They succeeded in a mobilization of our military forces based on ideological pretenses to impact foreign policy. The war has struck fear in other nations with a hostile show of American power. The conservatives have succeeded in strengthening what they perceive to be the locus of the national interest —military power.

It’s NOT Incompetence

When Progressives shout “Incompetence!” it obscures the many conservative successes. The incompetence frame drastically misses the point, that the conservative vision is doing great harm to this country and the world. An understanding of this and an articulate progressive response is needed. Progressives know that government can and should have a positive role in our lives beyond simple, physical security. It had a positive impact during the progressive era, busting trusts, and establishing basic labor standards. It had a positive impact during the new deal, softening the blow of the depression by creating jobs and stimulating the economy. It had a positive role in advancing the civil rights movement, extending rights to previously disenfranchised groups. And the United States can have a positive role in world affairs without the use of its military and expressions of raw power. Progressives acknowledge that we are all in this together, with “we” meaning all people, across all spectrums of race, class, religion, sex, sexual preference and age. “We” also means across party lines, state lines and international borders.

The mantra of incompetence has been an unfortunate one. The incompetence frame assumes that there was a sound plan, and that the trouble has been in the execution. It turns public debate into a referendum on Bush’s management capabilities, and deflects a critique of the impact of his guiding philosophy. It also leaves open the possibility that voters will opt for another radically conservative president in 2008, so long as he or she can manage better. Bush will not be running again, so thinking, talking and joking about him being incompetent offers no lessons to draw from his presidency.

Incompetence obscures the real issue. Bush’s conservative philosophy is what has damaged this country and it is his philosophy of conservatism that must be rejected, whoever endorses it.

Conservatism itself is the villain that is harming our people, destroying our environment, and weakening our nation. Conservatives are undermining American values through legislation almost every day. This message applies to every conservative bill proposed to Congress. The issue that arises every day is which philosophy of governing should shape our country. It is the issue of our times. Unless conservative philosophy itself is discredited, Conservatives will continue their domination of public discourse, and with it, will continue their domination of politics.
Swilatia
26-06-2006, 18:25
the whole incompetence thing is a attempt to hide his secret plans for world doniatian
Adriatica II
26-06-2006, 18:26
An excellent post. This highlights well for me where I do and dont agree with the Bush administration.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:26
i think it's more like the historical incompetence of all fascists - they are very competent at getting and using power, but not at actually accomplishing much with it. they'll pass laws and start wars and centralize power, but they still can't make the trains run on time (or actually win any of their wars).

also,
"Conservative philosophy has three fundamental tenets: individual initiative, that is, government’s positive role in people’s lives outside of the military and police should be minimized... and free markets are enough to foster freedom and opportunity."

this makes the classic mistake of looking at rhetoric rather than actions. the right thrives on saying this bullshit, but it has little if anything to do with what the leadership actually wants or does.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:27
the whole incompetence thing is a attempt to hide his secret plans for world doniatian

is it really secret when it's openly published and loudly proclaimed?
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 18:28
is it really secret when it's openly published and loudly proclaimed?
The secret part is how Karl Rove is going to penetrate your tinfoil hat.
Trostia
26-06-2006, 18:28
This image causes the opposition to underestimate his capacities

I think you mean misunderestimate his capabilities.


The idea that Bush is incompetent is a curious one. Consider the following (incomplete) list of major initiatives the Bush administration, with a loyal conservative Congress, has accomplished:

But you just said it: the Bush administration, and Congress. Why does the President get the credit for competency? Particularly things you list like, starting wars. The only competence needed to start a war, as president of the US, is being the president.
Unabashed Greed
26-06-2006, 18:28
This was the part that made the most sense, and made me the most angry.

"Conservatives continue to deny the validity of global warming, because it runs contrary to their moral system. Recognizing global warming would call for environmental regulation and governmental efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Regulation is a perceived interference with the free-market, Conservatives’ golden calf. So, the predictions of imminent hurricanes — based on recognizing global warming — were not heeded. Conservative free market convictions trumped the hurricane warnings."
The Nazz
26-06-2006, 18:30
It's either incompetent or evil--I'm not bothered with either one.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:36
The secret part is how Karl Rove is going to penetrate your tinfoil hat.

so they didn't publish a bunch of things talking about ensuring american hegemony for the next century and beyond?
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:37
It's either incompetent or evil

with an inclusive 'or'
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 18:38
so they didn't publish a bunch of things talking about ensuring american hegemony for the next century and beyond?
Not an official government document, no.
Maineiacs
26-06-2006, 18:40
It's either incompetent or evil--I'm not bothered with either one.


I'm not sure which I'd prefer to think. Which one is scarier: that he screwed the American public by accident or deliberately?
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:42
This was the part that made the most sense, and made me the most angry.

"Conservatives continue to deny the validity of global warming, because it runs contrary to their moral system. Recognizing global warming would call for environmental regulation and governmental efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Regulation is a perceived interference with the free-market, Conservatives’ golden calf. So, the predictions of imminent hurricanes — based on recognizing global warming — were not heeded. Conservative free market convictions trumped the hurricane warnings."

they don't care about free markets, they care about the interests of particular sectors of the business elite. which is not the same. they loves themselves a whole pile of interference, provided it is aimed at aiding them po' old bosses.

also, the american rightwingers have a reflexive hatred of 'hippies' at this point, and anything to do with the environment is clearly the work of 'hippies' - even if they are wearing lab coats and publishing in peer-reviewed journals.
Maineiacs
26-06-2006, 18:42
Not an official government document, no.


Oh, well, that makes it ok then. :rolleyes:
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:44
Not an official government document, no.

ah, so when all the people that formerly were interested in ensuring american hegemony gained power and started doing the very things they said they wanted to do, we can take this as a sure sign that they have given up on the idea entirely and are now partisans of a multipolar world where america is a bit player at best. it all makes sense now.
Keruvalia
26-06-2006, 18:45
Bush may not be "incompetent"

If you have to say about your Commander in Chief, your A#1 Head Honcho, that he "may not" be incompetent, then there's something seriously, seriously wrong.

There never should have been any doubt as to his competency to begin with and the "may not" suggests that there always has been - which there has always been.

If Bush were a CEO, he would have been fired after 6 months.

Amazing.
Vetalia
26-06-2006, 18:45
so they didn't publish a bunch of things talking about ensuring american hegemony for the next century and beyond?

I think every president since WWI has had that goal in mind, regardless of the means they used to do so. PNAC is only notable because they declare it openly...
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 18:46
I'm not sure which I'd prefer to think. Which one is scarier: that he screwed the American public by accident or deliberately?

I'm not sure which one you would prefer to think.

A. That Bush and his advisors got elected by the American public, in a free and fair election, and that he did a lot of things that he set out to accomplish. He may have had the initial vision, but he attracted competent people to get it done (even though Iraq seems to have been a fuckup, it looks to me as though it will sort out ok over time). He's gotten courts to go along with him. He's gotten some of his pet ideas through Congress. The only thing that seems to drag down his approval rating is the war in Iraq - prior to that, there wasn't any traction by Democrats in any area.

B. That Bush is a fucking idiot, and so is everyone on his staff - they need help tying their own shoelaces. They won the election by reprogramming Diebold machines, and everything he's done, written, signed, or otherwise had a hand in is completely illegal and a violation of the Constitution.

Of course, if you believe B, then you should really wonder why the Democratic Party has so much trouble opposing him. The war in Iraq seems to be the only issue that people are upset about - if it weren't for that, there would be nothing for them to rant about that people care about.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:47
I think every president since WWI has had that goal in mind, regardless of the means they used to do so. PNAC is only notable because they declare it openly...

oh, certainly. usually they try to dress it up in a nice looking suit, but that has clearly been the goal for quite some time.
Unabashed Greed
26-06-2006, 18:48
*snip*

And I'm sure you believe that Pat Buchanan actually got all those votes the legit way in florida in 2000...
Vetalia
26-06-2006, 18:51
oh, certainly. usually they try to dress it up in a nice looking suit, but that has clearly been the goal for quite some time.

That's been the goal since the 1890's when America began its brief formal imperialism binge and built the Great White Fleet...it marked the beginning of power projection as a core doctrine of US foreign and military policy.
Maineiacs
26-06-2006, 18:53
I'm not sure which one you would prefer to think.

A. That Bush and his advisors got elected by the American public, in a free and fair election, and that he did a lot of things that he set out to accomplish. He may have had the initial vision, but he attracted competent people to get it done (even though Iraq seems to have been a fuckup, it looks to me as though it will sort out ok over time). He's gotten courts to go along with him. He's gotten some of his pet ideas through Congress. The only thing that seems to drag down his approval rating is the war in Iraq - prior to that, there wasn't any traction by Democrats in any area.

B. That Bush is a fucking idiot, and so is everyone on his staff - they need help tying their own shoelaces. They won the election by reprogramming Diebold machines, and everything he's done, written, signed, or otherwise had a hand in is completely illegal and a violation of the Constitution.

Of course, if you believe B, then you should really wonder why the Democratic Party has so much trouble opposing him. The war in Iraq seems to be the only issue that people are upset about - if it weren't for that, there would be nothing for them to rant about that people care about.


C. The American people are fucking idiots that bought his bullshit. And the Dems have trouble opposing him because 1) the GOP is better at meaningless rhetoric, and frightened sheeple will vote for anything they think will make them feel safe; and 2) they're (the Dems) not much, if any, better at governing.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 18:56
That's been the goal since the 1890's when America began its brief formal imperialism binge and built the Great White Fleet...it marked the beginning of power projection as a core doctrine of US foreign and military policy.

with, of course, a bit of a precursor as far back as the monroe doctrine, especially the later interpretations and uses of it.
Hoofd-Nederland
26-06-2006, 18:56
Bah... both the Republicans and the Democrats are fucking dumbasses. One wants to filibuster every move by the other, this country gets nowhere. On top of that, you have a president who would much rather be a CEO of an Oil company somewhere in Texas than be president, and a Supreme Court which infringes on basic rights left and right. The Green party can't get it's fucking act together, and get one of their candidates nominated, and I guess thats good. If the best the Democrats can do is Hillary Clinton, then we are fucked...
New Domici
26-06-2006, 18:58
The secret part is how Karl Rove is going to penetrate your tinfoil hat.

So that's what that gooey mess was! I gotta stop putting the 18-wheeler mudflaps on it.
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 19:00
C. The American people are fucking idiots that bought his bullshit. And the Dems have trouble opposing him because 1) the GOP is better at meaningless rhetoric, and frightened sheeple will vote for anything they think will make them feel safe; and 2) they're (the Dems) not much, if any, better at governing.
or

D. It doesn't matter who the President is, or who is in Congress, because the unelected bureaucracy really runs the country. This keeps either party from really doing any major damage, or doing anything good, either.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 19:01
Of course, if you believe B, then you should really wonder why the Democratic Party has so much trouble opposing him.

the dems haven't had any sort of a real plan since the old coalition of labor, liberals, northern party machines, and southern racist fucktards fell apart.
Koon Proxy
26-06-2006, 19:04
The Conservative Agenda

Conservative philosophy has three fundamental tenets: individual initiative, that is, government’s positive role in people’s lives outside of the military and police should be minimized; the President is the moral authority; and free markets are enough to foster freedom and opportunity.

"Conservatives" are interested, by definition, in preserving the status quo. Which is why they lose, repeatedly. You've described more a semi-libertarian philosophy. I don't know anyone, though, who would say the President has any moral authority.

...Given this philosophy, then, is it any wonder that the government wasn’t there for the residents of Louisiana and Mississippi in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? Conservative philosophy places emphasis on the individual acting alone, independent of anything the government could provide. Some conservative Sunday morning talk show guests suggested that those who chose to live in New Orleans accepted the risk of a devastating hurricane, the implication being that they thus forfeited any entitlement to government assistance. If the people of New Orleans suffered, it was because of their own actions, their own choices and their own lack of preparedness. Bush couldn’t have failed if he bore no responsibility.

So the government wasn't there. As you say, according to the philosophy you describe, it shouldn't have been. Anyway, have you considered the massive amounts of charitable contributions of money, time, and stuffs that people have sent to help New Orleans rebuild?

Another failure of this administration during the Katrina fiasco was its wholesale disregard of the numerous and serious hurricane warnings. But this failure was a natural outgrowth of the conservative insistence on denying the validity of global warming, not ineptitude. Conservatives continue to deny the validity of global warming, because it runs contrary to their moral system. Recognizing global warming would call for environmental regulation and governmental efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Regulation is a perceived interference with the free-market, Conservatives’ golden calf. So, the predictions of imminent hurricanes — based on recognizing global warming — were not heeded. Conservative free market convictions trumped the hurricane warnings.

If somebody ignores a hurricane warning, somebody is stupid. It has nothing to do with their philosophy. Who seriously thinks, "Well, gosh, they say there's probably going to be a hurricane, but I guess it won't happen because global warming doesn't exist"?

Our budget deficit is not the result of incompetent fiscal management. It too is an outgrowth of conservative philosophy. What better way than massive deficits to rid social programs of their funding?

What better way than massive social programs to establish a deficit? Especially when combined with insuffucient tax revenue, because Americans really do prefer to deal with their money themselves, and won't stand for high taxes.

Finally, many of the miscalculations are the result of a conservative analytic focus on narrow causes and effects, rather than mere incompetence. Evidence for this focus can be seen in conservative domestic policies: Crime policy is based on punishing the criminals, independent of any effort to remedy the larger social issues that cause crime; immigration policy focuses on border issues and the immigrants, and ignores the effects of international and domestic economic policy on population migration; environmental policy is based on what profits there are to be gained or lost today, without attention paid to what the immeasurable long-term costs will be to the shared resource of our environment; education policy, in the form of vouchers, ignores the devastating effects that dismantling the public school system will have on our whole society.

True libertarians, not the half-arsed philosophy you describe, see the problem as being that the government has too many programs trying to address "social causes" and not enough will to just "deal with what happens".

Bush also used Katrina as an opportunity to suspend the environmental and labor protection laws that Conservatives despise so much. In the wake of Katrina, environmental standards for oil refineries were temporarily suspended to increase production. Labor laws are being thwarted to drive down the cost of reconstruction efforts. So, amidst these “disasters,” Conservatives win again.

Well, and if we had listened to the then-conservatives and not started inflation oh-so-long-ago, the economics would be a lot simpler, and a lot of the labor laws wouldn't be so bloody interfering with getting stuff done.

The problem isn't "conservatism". The problem is inconsistency. We have a neoconservative - government should use it's power to make sure people are in a position where the free market can operate, but nobody gets hurt and everybody gets benefits - trying to run a system that partly socialist (state provides all benefits) and tending more towards it every day. This situation is on top of a form of government that's officially republican, unofficially democratic and poll-driven, and actually governed in large part by the courts.

Yes, to make our system work, we cannot elect conservatives, liberatarians, etc. But maybe changing the system is in order, instead of changing the people who run it?
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 19:08
I don't know anyone, though, who would say the President has any moral authority.

you haven't met any partisans of the bush movement? really?
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 19:10
the dems haven't had any sort of a real plan since the old coalition of labor, liberals, northern party machines, and southern racist fucktards fell apart.

Not like they had any coherent, substantially different political philosophy that would mark them as separate and distinct from Republicans, either.
Koon Proxy
26-06-2006, 19:12
you haven't met any partisans of the bush movement? really?

Oh, I know a lot of people who think Bush is awesome. Just, they wouldn't say it that way. No wait,, actually, I just remembered two people I know who would probably say he does have moral authority. But see, they're so annoying that I sort of try not to remember they exist.
Adriatica II
26-06-2006, 19:14
i think it's more like the historical incompetence of all fascists - they are very competent at getting and using power, but not at actually accomplishing much with it. they'll pass laws and start wars and centralize power, but they still can't make the trains run on time (or actually win any of their wars).


I think thats a little wrong. The Nazis did increadably well at making Germany strong after the wall street crash. Granted what they did in WW2 and the Holocaust obviously does not mean that I will defend the Nazis as being a good government, but you are wrong when you say that Facists have a bad record with domestic infrastructural policy
Caelestus
26-06-2006, 19:38
Not going to bother reading the other replies, just need to say my piece:

Bush IS incompetent.... when it comes to being a Conservative. Government spending has exploded during his administration, and there are record deficits as a result. I -liked- a lot of the conservative agenda back in the 90s... I liked the idea of a Constitutionally mandated balanced budget each year, I -liked- the idea of shrinking the federal government and reducing it to vital services like the military, postal service, and interstate commerce.

NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE ON HIS AGENDA.... AND THEY NEVER WILL BE!

This man, is as far from being conservative as you can get. Yes, most conservatives have these ridiculously regressive social values regarding things like gay marriage, abortion, rights for transgendered people, etc... But I always hoped that a desire for small, non-interfering governments would win out. No, now I have to rely on people jumping ship from both parties and maybe the Libertarians becoming a powerful party, since their beliefs are still close enough to mine for me to vote for them.

He -is- incompetent, but only because he claims to be conservative and yet isn't pushing a conservative agenda... at ALL. He's pushing a facist agenda... why do I say that? Because the fascists were the ones in favour of using the government to fuel corporations... They were the originators of the military-industrial complex. Go to war so that corporations can make more money...
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 19:44
The Nazis did increadably well at making Germany strong after the wall street crash.

less well than other comparable places, and largely due to the fascist military buildup and general insinuation into the economy. it was all extremely short term sorts of stuff. and after the war was going, they had to move quite quickly over to slave labor and expropriations to even keep the pretense up.
The Nazz
26-06-2006, 19:49
I'm not sure which one you would prefer to think.

A. That Bush and his advisors got elected by the American public, in a free and fair election, and that he did a lot of things that he set out to accomplish. He may have had the initial vision, but he attracted competent people to get it done (even though Iraq seems to have been a fuckup, it looks to me as though it will sort out ok over time). He's gotten courts to go along with him. He's gotten some of his pet ideas through Congress. The only thing that seems to drag down his approval rating is the war in Iraq - prior to that, there wasn't any traction by Democrats in any area. As per usual, there are a number of problems with your argument, but I'll start here. The fact is that prior to 9/11/2001, Bush was wallowing in the mid-40s in approval rating, and was looking for all the world like Poppy Part Duh. The WTC attacks were the best thing that ever happened to him, politically speaking. (Note: I am not suggesting that he had anything to do with them, or that he celebrated the way they helped him--I'm only saying that they saved his ass politically.) And if you look at the breakdown of his current approval ratings, you'll notice that there's not a single question on which he's in the positive anymore. He's down in everything.

B. That Bush is a fucking idiot, and so is everyone on his staff - they need help tying their own shoelaces. They won the election by reprogramming Diebold machines, and everything he's done, written, signed, or otherwise had a hand in is completely illegal and a violation of the Constitution.

Of course, if you believe B, then you should really wonder why the Democratic Party has so much trouble opposing him. The war in Iraq seems to be the only issue that people are upset about - if it weren't for that, there would be nothing for them to rant about that people care about.
Just because Bush is incompetent doesn't mean his entire staff is, although there's a fair number of incompetents on that staff--Rumsfeld and Chertoff spring immediately to mind, and I'm sure I could rattle off a half dozen others as well if necessary. But Powell was competent, and Rice has been the lone bright spot in the second term. And if Bush hadn't had a compliant Congress (and it's hard to picture a Congress more compliant than this one), then he wouldn't have gotten half his pet projects through.
Skinny87
26-06-2006, 19:50
I think thats a little wrong. The Nazis did increadably well at making Germany strong after the wall street crash. Granted what they did in WW2 and the Holocaust obviously does not mean that I will defend the Nazis as being a good government, but you are wrong when you say that Facists have a bad record with domestic infrastructural policy

Not really. They would've been screwed if they hadn't gone to war. As FS said, they needed slave labour such as Organisation Todt to keep the economy running things, and keeping women out of the factories just damaged the economy further. Just like the US in the late '30's, it took war to keep their economy going, otherwise short-term projects like building the Autobahns would have quickly come to an end.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 19:54
This man, is as far from being conservative as you can get.

not according to overwhelming numbers of self-identified conservatives, which are essentially the only sector of the public that still supports him, and have done so consistently from the beginning.
New Maastricht
26-06-2006, 19:58
Did any of you ever think that this conservative agenda is a good thing?
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 19:58
not according to overwhelming numbers of self-identified conservatives, which are essentially the only sector of the public that still supports him, and have done so consistently from the beginning.
Maybe because the Democrats haven't offered anything but idiot replacements.

Better the idiot we know, than the new idiot we'll have to get used to.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 20:02
They would've been screwed if they hadn't gone to war.

and war was actually the thing that the nazis did fairly well (though they clearly weren't all that great at it either) compared to most other fascists, who were just as incompetent at that as they were at everything else.
Gauthier
26-06-2006, 20:11
If you have to say about your Commander in Chief, your A#1 Head Honcho, that he "may not" be incompetent, then there's something seriously, seriously wrong.

There never should have been any doubt as to his competency to begin with and the "may not" suggests that there always has been - which there has always been.

If Bush were a CEO, he would have been fired after 6 months.

Amazing.

Shrub was given three companies to run by Daddy and he bankrupted them all.

Yet the American public thought he was charming and honorable enough to be President. For two terms.

The country has a short attention span and a shallow addiction to bullshit.

The Red States are dumbfuckphiliacs.
CthulhuFhtagn
26-06-2006, 20:11
Maybe because the Democrats haven't offered anything but idiot replacements.

Better the idiot we know, than the new idiot we'll have to get used to.
See, I'd rather have the idiot who can at least pronounce something that could end humanity.
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 20:13
The Red States are dumbfuckphiliacs.

The other problem with Democrats - they insist on ridicule as their primary means of getting their message out. No surprise that a lot of people won't vote for someone who falsely panders to them and calls them names.
The Nazz
26-06-2006, 20:39
The other problem with Democrats - they insist on ridicule as their primary means of getting their message out. No surprise that a lot of people won't vote for someone who falsely panders to them and calls them names.
Spare me, please. You know as well as I do that the people throwing insults are the minority in both parties, and precious few of them are politicians. There's nothing in Gauthier's comment that you won't find in huge numbers at the Free Republic or two dozen other right-wing sites as well.
Deep Kimchi
26-06-2006, 20:45
Spare me, please. You know as well as I do that the people throwing insults are the minority in both parties, and precious few of them are politicians. There's nothing in Gauthier's comment that you won't find in huge numbers at the Free Republic or two dozen other right-wing sites as well.

I got the impression that Democratic Underground was Gauthier all by himself, with several hundred puppets.
Free Soviets
26-06-2006, 21:28
Maybe because the Democrats haven't offered anything but idiot replacements.

Better the idiot we know, than the new idiot we'll have to get used to.

that's certainly a major problem, but it doesn't have much to do with why conservatives lined up so strongly behind dear leader. that has more to do with the psychology of conservativism and its real fundamental principles.
Hoofd-Nederland
26-06-2006, 21:31
Maybe we should have more Cheneys hanging around Bush, and have them go hunting together...
Mensia
26-06-2006, 21:41
Personally, and call me a left-wing conspiracy nut, but I find things like the PNAC more than a little unsettling. Though they are (though maybe partially) open about their mission, which is basically to have "American" economy, social-security standards and possibly even morals as the guiding light for the world, the scary thing is that people actually think they can do good with war. That somehow, if you just throw enough bombs, kill enough "bad guys" and throw your weight around enough, people will accept that you´ve been right all along.

While I admit that the going in of the U.S. into world war two saved many a european from having to sieg heileach day, Twentieth century history is not pointing entirely in favour of democracy through the Gun.

The idea of the world´s strongest military nation just deciding they are going to change any country they damn well feel like into what they think is right, is not exactly any possible prelude to peace. That kind of attitude will backfire, and is backfiring even as we speak.

Many hornets will fly still from the nest the U.S. has stepped in methinks, and it might not be undeserved.

- Understand that this is a criticism against american policy, not american people. The people getting killed every day (on either side) are usually victims of War Pigs, Religious Nutters and Fat Greedy Bastards, and yes I am aware of the crude generalization -