NationStates Jolt Archive

Really. Israel will put up with quite a few bombs and shootings in it's territory but will go nuts over a single soldier getting abducted by the Palestinians. Kidnappings make them go all "must, kill, all"- type crazy. They WILL flatten Gaza to find this soldier.

Oh, and the Palestinians are also claiming they have WMDs. Israel has nukes. You get the idea.


The Jerusalem Post Internet Edition

Israel to Abbas: Release soldier or IDF will enter Gaza
JPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 25, 2006

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas invited leaders of various Palestinian terror organizations to his office Sunday afternoon and informed them that he had received an ultimatum from the Israeli government warning that if the kidnapped soldier was not released safely within a matter of hours, IDF forces would enter Gaza and the organizations would bear responsibility.

The soldier was kidnapped Sunday after a coordinated attack by at least three Palestinian factions killed an IDF officer and soldier and wounded four others near the Kerem Shalom crossing in the southern Gaza Strip.

Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz confirmed in a press conference Sunday afternoon that the kidnapped soldier was still alive. "As far as we know he is still alive," said Halutz, adding that "Hamas bears responsibility for the soldier's wellbeing."

Hamas - although it did not formally claim the abduction - announced that it would not provide Israel with any intelligence on the soldier's whereabouts without getting "something in return."

IDF Gaza Division Commander, Brig.-Gen. Aviv Kohavi, reiterated Halutz's comments, but added that it was possible that the soldier was wounded during the attack.

Security forces sweeping the area around Rafah discovered the soldier's flak jacket.

Halutz admitted that the morning attack had caught the IDF unaware.

"We don't know everything," Halutz said, adding that despite alerts, attacks occurred. "We are always living under alerts," he said. "We have to understand that fighting terror doesn't happen in an instant."

When asked if the army had known about the existence of a 100-meter-long tunnel, via which the Palestinian operatives breached the border, Halutz responded that if the IDF had known about the tunnel, the military would have taken steps to destroy it.

Halutz refused to comment on whether the abduction would prompt the IDF to alter its policy along the Gaza border, and when asked if the army planned to close the Philadelphi Route to prevent the soldier from being transported to Egypt, replied, "We are doing everything necessary."

Egypt has contacted Hamas, saying that it was willing to broker negotiations between Hamas and Israel to secure the soldier's release.

Earlier Sunday, the deputy director of the Shin Bet told the security cabinet that the Shin Bet had recently cracked a Sinai cell that intended to kidnap soldiers.

:eek:

*runs*

Seriously though, this sucks. I can't imagine would Isreal would do if some crazy Palestinian actually did have a WMD and did something with it..

:eek:

*runs*

Seriously though, this sucks. I can't imagine would Isreal would do if some crazy Palestinian actually did have a WMD and did something with it..

We'd feel the impact from the mainland US of Israeli 500lb JDAMs hitting every house in gaza.

Scary, indeed.:eek:

Silly Semites.

hopefully the fireworks are bright enough for the fourth ;)

Isreal, go kick ass

Hamas - although it did not formally claim the abduction - announced that it would not provide Israel with any intelligence on the soldier's whereabouts without getting "something in return."

The kidnapping of Israeli soldiers actually occurs frequently. Often they are used to bargin with the Israeli officials to get Palestinian prisoners released. This specific instance is getting a lot of media coverage because it occured during a Hamas raid on Israel, the first in years. I don't know how Hamas thinks they can take responsibility for the raid but pretend that they didn't kidnap the soldier though. These terror groups are really not very ingenious sometimes.

How much will Isreal take before it snaps?

If there's one thing you can count on, it's that Israel will not nuke Gaza. There's the whole problem with fallout, even if they did manage to avoid becoming pariahs to the rest of the world.

The kidnapping of Israeli soldiers actually occurs frequently. Often they are used to bargin with the Israeli officials to get Palestinian prisoners released. This specific instance is getting a lot of media coverage because it occured during a Hamas raid on Israel, the first in years. I don't know how Hamas thinks they can take responsibility for the raid but pretend that they didn't kidnap the soldier though. These terror groups are really not very ingenious sometimes.

No.

The last one occured in 1994. Thats.... 12 years ago. Not that frequent.


No Israeli soldiers have been seized by Palestinian militants since 1994 and it is being seen as a crisis in Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5116768.stm

I'd like to see some evidence that the PA/Palestinians actually has 'WMD's' as the OP claims.

As for the story, either Hamas should end the truce utterly and formally wage war, or the should quit fucking around with the future of 'their' people.

Hope the guy gets returned safely. He's a soldier, but still no one deserves that.

Maybe Abbas can get some good points from from the public if his does this right, and that might help counter Hamas' support.

I'd like to see some evidence that the PA/Palestinians actually has 'WMD's' as the OP claims.

As for the story, either Hamas should end the truce utterly and formally wage war, or the should quit fucking around with the future of 'their' people.

Hope the guy gets returned safely. He's a soldier, but still no one deserves that.

Maybe Abbas can get some good points from from the public if his does this right, and that might help counter Hamas' support.
There was a thread about it earlier---Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is claiming to have some chemical agents they can load into shells and fire into Israel, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do. But it won't lead to a nuclear response, like DM seems to hope it will.

There was a thread about it earlier---Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is claiming to have some chemical agents they can load into shells and fire into Israel, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do. But it won't lead to a nuclear response, like DM seems to hope it will.

Saw that thread, but apart from one article claiming they claimed they had chem/bio weapons... nothing.

Home ingredients mixed correctly can be techically 'chem/bio' weapons for God's sake.

*smip*

First, a link. I want to see something more concrete than an anonymous forum post.

Second. What WMDs? Even in the part which you say came from the article, there is no mention of WMDs.

One less terrorist hot-spot not to visit

There was a thread about it earlier---Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is claiming to have some chemical agents they can load into shells and fire into Israel, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do. But it won't lead to a nuclear response, like DM seems to hope it will.

I would presume that the Israelis would just reoccupy Gaza, and thoroughly search the place. A lot of Palestinians would be killed or wounded, and more would be displaced or have their homes destroyed.

I believe that the Israelis would make it an expensive gesture.

I would presume that the Israelis would just reoccupy Gaza, and thoroughly search the place. A lot of Palestinians would be killed or wounded, and more would be displaced or have their homes destroyed.

I believe that the Israelis would make it an expensive gesture.

Well, hopefully it won't come to that. Bad for both teams in the long run.

Egypt is mediating and got the soldier medical attention, they should be able to solve this soon..... I hope.

I believe that the Israelis would make it an expensive gesture.

Maybe, but considering how wide the definition of chemical weapons can go, I wonder what would happen if they launched a missile loaded with laundry detergent?

Well, hopefully it won't come to that. Bad for both teams in the long run.

Egypt is mediating and got the soldier medical attention, they should be able to solve this soon..... I hope.

Yes. I believe that the current Israeli policy of trying to unilaterally disengage from the Palestinians is prompting the Palestinians to try to engage the Israelis in as negative a manner as possible. I do, however, think it is possible for the Israelis to stop all contact with the Palestinians, close their borders, and leave the Palestinians to whatever they want to do with themselves.

The Palestinians, for their part, would be reduced to firing homemade rockets into Israel.

:eek:

*runs*

Seriously though, this sucks. I can't imagine would Isreal would do if some crazy Palestinian actually did have a WMD and did something with it..

that is truly scary.....whyt the fuck dont these people calm the hell down:-(

and i mean all of them...wtf,,enough is enough allready.

do people not realise if they kill someones kid,that someone is gonna get pissed and kill their kid...round and round we go....to all the israilis and palistinians....take a deep breath...understand that you lost someone..but if this continues...you will lose more...both sides...stfu and get along allready!

Really. Israel will put up with quite a few bombs and shootings in it's territory but will go nuts over a single soldier getting abducted by the Palestinians. Kidnappings make them go all "must, kill, all"- type crazy. They WILL flatten Gaza to find this soldier.

Oh, and the Palestinians are also claiming they have WMDs. Israel has nukes. You get the idea.

i think the isreali millitary is one of the best forces around at the moment. they get the job done.

but... is it really a wise ide to nuke a neighboring country? especcially when it is in such a small space that will likely send radiation back over your own country?

Yes. I believe that the current Israeli policy of trying to unilaterally disengage from the Palestinians is prompting the Palestinians to try to engage the Israelis in as negative a manner as possible. I do, however, think it is possible for the Israelis to stop all contact with the Palestinians, close their borders, and leave the Palestinians to whatever they want to do with themselves.

The Palestinians, for their part, would be reduced to firing homemade rockets into Israel.
that is so sad,but probably true.
after years of conflict,and not having the israilis to blame or in their face..so to speak..i think they will turn on themselves.

fucking sad for the kids to live in that enviroment...but alas..only they can change their destiny.

i think,and i am a dreamer..lol...that if the israilis withdraw,like they are doing,and not put the fence on palistinian land(i like the fence idea..just not on palistinian land)then the palistinians..have no one to blame but themselves for the conflict!
yes you can say,from both sides about your grievances....but in the end..everyone has lost...if you dont stop..when will it end?

There was a thread about it earlier---Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is claiming to have some chemical agents they can load into shells and fire into Israel, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do. But it won't lead to a nuclear response, like DM seems to hope it will.
I agree that it probably won't lead to a nuclear response, but it will lead to one hell of a conventional response.

I called a day, do I get a cookie?

:eek:

*runs*

Seriously though, this sucks. I can't imagine would Isreal would do if some crazy Palestinian actually did have a WMD and did something with it..
Not to mention what America would do! Can you say, "Free Palestinian Parking," boys and girls??

Fox Reported that the Israelis gave the Palis 2 hours....2 hours until D-day in the west bank.

Seriously, I wish the US would show more balls like the Israelis.

i think the isreali millitary is one of the best forces around at the moment. they get the job done.

but... is it really a wise ide to nuke a neighboring country? especcially when it is in such a small space that will likely send radiation back over your own country?


I don't think they'd use a BIG nuke-if they did nuke them it would be with something small. Although I doubt they would period. Instead I imagine they'd do Vietnam style area firebombing. If they have ANY b52s this would be a peice of cake.

Israel-2 words-GIT SUM! Israel's said they wouldn't have a problem toppling the Hamas gov't if the soldier isn't returned alive.

FYI, his name his Sgt Gideon Shalit.

Pardon me, I'm going to go invest in Caterpillar :p

Pardon me, I'm going to go invest in Caterpillar :p

Pardon me, I'm going to go invest in Caterpillar :pWhat, did Israel finally decide to clear out the settlements?

What, did Israel finally decide to clear out the settlements?

Well this attack came from Gaza, and yes...they decided to clear out the settlements there a year ago, and all they have gotten in return is more terrorism and bloodshed.

Israel has no business pulling out of anything if they can't be guaranteed an end to hostilities on the part of the Palestinians.

Israel has no business pulling out of anything if they can't be guaranteed an end to hostilities on the part of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians wanted them out. What, are we not supposed to give terrorists what they want anymore?

I'd like to see some evidence that the PA/Palestinians actually has 'WMD's' as the OP claims.

They're claiming the have WMDs. No one knows if their claims are valid though.

The Palestinians wanted them out. What, are we not supposed to give terrorists what they want anymore?


lol DK, we all know we're supposed to bend over and take it from the terrorists and give them what they want; after all, they are desperate freedom fighters. :rolleyes:

After the Arabs rejected the call for a Palestinian state in 1948, the Arabs and the Israelis all began on equal ground; living in the desert with nothing, and now look at where we are. The Jews have persevered and created a powerhouse economy and the freest nation in the Middle East and the Arabs are continuing to exploit the Palestinians and fuel hatred.

It's like a kid studying his ass off for an exam, and doing really well, and the kid who did no studying at all and failed the test taking out his anger on the one who did study. Stop blaming Israel for your problems! Israel has been more than willing to negotiate peace and help create an independant state and help it flourish.

lol DK, we all know we're supposed to bend over and take it from the terrorists and give them what they want; after all, they are desperate freedom fighters. :rolleyes:

After the Arabs rejected the call for a Palestinian state in 1948, the Arabs and the Israelis all began on equal ground; living in the desert with nothing, and now look at where we are. The Jews have persevered and created a powerhouse economy and the freest nation in the Middle East and the Arabs are continuing to exploit the Palestinians and fuel hatred.

It's like a kid studying his ass off for an exam, and doing really well, and the kid who did no studying at all and failed the test taking out his anger on the one who did study. Stop blaming Israel for your problems! Israel has been more than willing to negotiate peace and help create an independant state and help it flourish.


I was being facetious.

I was being facetious.


so was I

Not to mention what America would do! Can you say, "Free Palestinian Parking," boys and girls??

Yes, thanks for sharing the accumulated wisdom of six decades with us. Finger painting is half an hour, go put your smock on.


Well this attack came from Gaza, and yes...they decided to clear out the settlements there a year ago, and all they have gotten in return is more terrorism and bloodshed.

Well they didnt get out of Arab East Jerusalem or the West Bank did they?


After the Arabs rejected the call for a Palestinian state in 1948, the Arabs and the Israelis all began on equal ground; living in the desert with nothing, and now look at where we are. The Jews have persevered and created a powerhouse economy and the freest nation in the Middle East and the Arabs are continuing to exploit the Palestinians and fuel hatred..

Left out one or two things. The big one - The Israelis owned about 7% of the land, kicked the Arabs out and left them largely in exile. Not twenty years later the same people who had ended up in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and gaza find (Guess who) coming over the border and starting bvuilding settllements again. Not only that but they use checkpoints, curfews and bulldozers to undermine what little economy exists in the now occupied territories.

Well they didnt get out of Arab East Jerusalem or the West Bank did they?

Would there be any Jews there to begin with if the Arabs hadn't tried to annihilate Israel in the 6 Day War? When you invade a sovereign nation hoping to push them into the sea, you can't turn around once you lose and say "oh shit..uhh there aren't allowed to be consequences for my actions!"



Left out one or two things. The big one - The Israelis owned about 7% of the land, kicked the Arabs out and left them largely in exile. Not twenty years later the same people who had ended up in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and gaza find (Guess who) coming over the border and starting bvuilding settllements again. Not only that but they use checkpoints, curfews and bulldozers to undermine what little economy exists in the now occupied territories.

Like I've said timeless times before, the British left Palestine (after they had been given the mandate after the Ottoman Empire was dissolved-not Palestine) and there was to be a compromise to the Jewish population and the Arabs; two states....Israel and Palestine (mind u after 75% of historic Palestine was given to the Arabs to form Jordan) Arabs said no fuck that, tried to kill all the Jews. The Jews won the war, did not kick anyone out except for scattered strategic points in order to win the war and save Jews who would have been slaughtered. Most Arabs left voluntarily or at the order of the Arab leaders.

They were then placed in camps by their fellow Arabs where they have been ever since.

What litte economy they have? Why is that? Because of Israel? I think not. When Israel was established in 48 they were in the same financial situation. The Palestinian economy is what it is because their government relies on using the International aid they recieve to finance weapons and terrorism; not build an economy-Palestinians in Gaza could have used the greenhouses left by the settlers to start building an economy but they just razed those to the ground.

As for curfews and checkpoints, shit...I guess Israel should just let anyone in, no matter how many of them have bombs strapped to their bodies.

I like war, it plays to my advantage. I hope world war 3 happens sometime after I get back home...I will love it!

Israel has no business pulling out of anything if they can't be guaranteed an end to hostilities on the part of the Palestinians.I'll no doubt get flamed & called a racist for saying this, but why should Israel expect anything but war, as long as it occupies anything beyond the 1967 borders?

AFAIK, occupied peoples have every right to try to repel the occupiers - not that I in any way condone the way the go about it, but I don't see how you can expect them not to fight.

Besides, if Israel got peace tomorrow, why would they stop the occupation?

I'll no doubt get flamed & called a racist for saying this, but why should Israel expect anything but war, as long as it occupies anything beyond the 1967 borders?

AFAIK, occupied peoples have every right to try to repel the occupiers - not that I in any way condone the way the go about it, but I don't see how you can expect them not to fight.

Besides, if Israel got peace tomorrow, why would they stop the occupation?


Sim...do you know why Israel maintains a presence in the West Bank? I'll tell you. Because in 1967 they were invaded by every neighboring country for the umpteenth time and beat them back and refused to go back to indefensible borders until a just and peaceful settlement is reached. But the Arabs have never done anything that would lead to a just and peaceful settlement. Peace is not on their agenda; taking all of Israel is.

I'll no doubt get flamed & called a racist for saying this, but why should Israel expect anything but war, as long as it occupies anything beyond the 1967 borders?

AFAIK, occupied peoples have every right to try to repel the occupiers - not that I in any way condone the way the go about it, but I don't see how you can expect them not to fight.

Besides, if Israel got peace tomorrow, why would they stop the occupation?
Technically, the US resides on a considerable amount of 'occupied' territory from Mexico and the American Indians...

Would there be any Jews there to begin with if the Arabs hadn't tried to annihilate Israel in the 6 Day War? When you invade a sovereign nation hoping to push them into the sea, you can't turn around once you lose and say "oh shit..uhh there aren't allowed to be consequences for my actions!" .

The state of Jordan, Syria, Egypt etc were involved in the 1967 war. The palestinians may have egged them on, but their fate was not a consideration to those states. Why, having been thrown out of their homes once already, should they be shafted again?


Like I've said timeless times before, the British left Palestine (after they had been given the mandate after the Ottoman Empire was dissolved-not Palestine) and there was to be a compromise to the Jewish population and the Arabs; two states....Israel and Palestine (mind u after 75% of historic Palestine was given to the Arabs to form Jordan) Arabs said no fuck that, tried to kill all the Jews..

No, the neighbouring states attacked. They did not "try to kill all the Jews". If you want to speculate, start another thread and play guessy games there.

Yes, the British had a mandate, yet there was a proposal that the Arabs rejected.


The Jews won the war, did not kick anyone out except for scattered strategic points in order to win the war and save Jews who would have been slaughtered.

Israel did indeed win the war. In the process it emptied large numbers of villages of its inhabitants by threat, eviction or during the process of an attack. As a result 750,000 or so were made into refugees. The honest thing to do is to admit to this, and then justify in the light of the holocaust which had ended just three years earlier. The dishonest thing is to paint flowers and bunny wabbits just as you and a few others attempt to do.


Most Arabs left voluntarily or at the order of the Arab leaders..

Benny Morris is somewhere five miles to the right of me. He states that the actions taken were justified, as they were nessecary for the formation of the State of Israel. He also states that from over 300 Arab villages where the populations had left, only 6 left at the behest of Palestinian leadership. Honesty. Rare quality these days


What litte economy they have? Why is that? Because of Israel? ..

Because they were refugees who had to start over. And in a state where they were seen as foreigners. And not 19 years after, who comes back for a second visit....


I As for curfews and checkpoints, shit...I guess Israel should just let anyone in, no matter how many of them have bombs strapped to their bodies.

Keeping farmers from their fields is rather different than keeping bombers out of Israel.

Sim...do you know why Israel maintains a presence in the West Bank? I'll tell you. Because in 1967 they were invaded by every neighboring country for the umpteenth time and beat them back and refused to go back to indefensible borders until a just and peaceful settlement is reached. But the Arabs have never done anything that would lead to a just and peaceful settlement. Peace is not on their agenda; taking all of Israel is.

Well....Egypt signed a thing called a "peace treaty". And so did Jordan.

Well....Egypt signed a thing called a "peace treaty". And so did Jordan.

IMHO, the only people engaged in a disingenuous negotiation have been the Palestinians.

They agreed to, and signed the roadmap. With no intention of ever going through with it.

IMHO, the only people engaged in a disingenuous negotiation have been the Palestinians.

They agreed to, and signed the roadmap. With no intention of ever going through with it.

Hmmm....so what did they intend to do? Crush the 'evil Israel' with their military might?

And why were the settlements still being expanded and built?

The state of Jordan, Syria, Egypt etc were involved in the 1967 war. The palestinians may have egged them on, but their fate was not a consideration to those states. Why, having been thrown out of their homes once already, should they be shafted again?

lol, Jordan was in control of the West Bank during th '67 war, after they seized it in '48 and refused another Arab state in the land. They are the ones who placed the "Palestinians" in refugee camps along with Syria, Lebanon amognst others.

No, the neighbouring states attacked. They did not "try to kill all the Jews". If you want to speculate, start another thread and play guessy games there.

Yes, the British had a mandate, yet there was a proposal that the Arabs rejected.

No I'm pretty sure the point of the Arab invasions into Israel was to push the Jews into the sea and kill as many in the process. Why are you denying this, not even the Arab leaders denied their stated goal. Here are some lovely quotes taken from the Jewish Virtual Library and Mitchell G. Bard's "Myths and Facts: A guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict";

Nasser, the president of Egypt said: As Nasser told the United Arab Republic National Assembly March 26, 1964:

"Israel and the imperialism around us, which confront us, are two separate things. There have been attempts to separate them, in order to break up the problems and present them in an imaginary light as if the problem of Israel is the problem of the refugees, by the solution of which the problem of Palestine will also be solved and no residue of the problem will remain. The danger of Israel lies in the very existence of Israel as it is in the present and in what she represents."

Syria's attacks grew more frequent in 1965 and 1966, while Nasser's rhetoric became increasingly bellicose: "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand," he said on March 8, 1965. "We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood."

President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."


Israel did indeed win the war. In the process it emptied large numbers of villages of its inhabitants by threat, eviction or during the process of an attack. As a result 750,000 or so were made into refugees. The honest thing to do is to admit to this, and then justify in the light of the holocaust which had ended just three years earlier. The dishonest thing is to paint flowers and bunny wabbits just as you and a few others attempt to do.

I admiteed that a few villages were evacuated, notably Lydda and Ramleh for strategic reasons; there was no sort of ethnic cleeansing or any such nonsense. Golda Meir pleaded with the Arabs of Haifa to stay and actaully went there herself to plead with them.

Benny Morris is somewhere five miles to the right of me. He states that the actions taken were justified, as they were nessecary for the formation of the State of Israel. He also states that from over 300 Arab villages where the populations had left, only 6 left at the behest of Palestinian leadership. Honesty. Rare quality these days

Sources?

Because they were refugees who had to start over. And in a state where they were seen as foreigners. And not 19 years after, who comes back for a second visit....

Hmmm...refugees starting over; sounds familiar to the Jewish people. How about the One Million Jews expelled from the Middle East after the formation of Israel. They had nowhere to go but were welcomed wiht open arms to Israel which was miles and miles away from where they were and where there was a complete different culture AND LANGUAGE. The Arab refugees following the 48 war had to go just over the border into a country with the same culture and language. All that had to be done was for the Arabs to accept their brothers just like the Jews did.

Hmmm....so what did they intend to do? Crush the 'evil Israel' with their military might?

And why were the settlements still being expanded and built?

Bomb civilians in marketplaces and on public buses. Firing rockets into schoolyards. You know, the usual sort of thing.

When a fight goes on this long, I am reminded of my parents, who fought nearly the whole 27 years they were married, and then fought on for another decade after divorce. I think they like the confrontation - if it weren't for that, their politicians on either side would have to face facts and attend to more basic needs like education, etc. In fact, I believe that BOTH sides love the whole intifada thing.

Well....Egypt signed a thing called a "peace treaty". And so did Jordan.

I meant a just and peaceful solution to he Palestinian issue, not peace between the Arabs countries and Israel.

Well....Egypt signed a thing called a "peace treaty". And so did Jordan.


Last I checked neither one had attacked or been attacked by Israel... Just goes to show what a little honor can do for a country.

Last I checked neither one had attacked or been attacked by Israel... Just goes to show what a little honor can do for a country.


I'm confused Boz, Egypt and Jordan both attacked Israel, and on several occassions...

I'm confused Boz, Egypt and Jordan both attacked Israel, and on several occassions...

youre a bit slow, the peace treatys were signed after those wars.

and these peace treaties are bollocks. this is just like saying "c, if israel was destroyed, hamas would stop its bombings" by signing those peace treaties, they sold out the palestinians and the arabs, by recognising a state that has destroyed palestine.

lol, Jordan was in control of the West Bank during th '67 war, after they seized it in '48 and refused another Arab state in the land. They are the ones who placed the "Palestinians" in refugee camps along with Syria, Lebanon amognst others..

I'm sorry but they did not expel Palestinians from their home. You'll note that it normal practice to try to repatriate refugees, rather than set them up a state.



No I'm pretty sure the point of the Arab invasions into Israel was to push the Jews into the sea and kill as many in the process. Why are you denying this, not even the Arab leaders denied their stated goal. Here are some lovely quotes taken from the Jewish Virtual Library and Mitchell G. Bard's "Myths and Facts: A guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict";

Nasser, the president of Egypt said: As Nasser told the United Arab Republic National Assembly March 26, 1964:

"Israel and the imperialism around us, which confront us, are two separate things. There have been attempts to separate them, in order to break up the problems and present them in an imaginary light as if the problem of Israel is the problem of the refugees, by the solution of which the problem of Palestine will also be solved and no residue of the problem will remain. The danger of Israel lies in the very existence of Israel as it is in the present and in what she represents.".

No mention of "kill all the Jews". Warmongering, but not genocidal.


Syria's attacks grew more frequent in 1965 and 1966, while Nasser's rhetoric became increasingly bellicose: "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand," he said on March 8, 1965. "We shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood."

President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map.".

The usual Arab rhetoric. And still no mention of "kill all the Jews". To accuse others of attempted genocide so fallasciously is rather a misuse of the memory of those who actually died at the hands of the prepatrators of the actual Holocaust, don't you think?


I admiteed that a few villages were evacuated, notably Lydda and Ramleh for strategic reasons; there was no sort of ethnic cleeansing or any such nonsense. Golda Meir pleaded with the Arabs of Haifa to stay and actaully went there herself to plead with them..".

An action which prompted David Ben Gurion to enquire why she was bothering. He also said expliciltly that he was against those from Haifa returning after the war. There was ethnic cleansing. I suggest you learn to wrap your head around the fact, whatever you might make of it in a "moral" light.



Sources?..".

//http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521338891/104-9200200-1791911?v=glance&n=283155



Hmmm...refugees starting over; sounds familiar to the Jewish people. How about the One Million Jews expelled from the Middle East after the formation of Israel. They had nowhere to go but were welcomed wiht open arms to Israel which was miles and miles away from where they were and where there was a complete different culture AND LANGUAGE. The Arab refugees following the 48 war had to go just over the border into a country with the same culture and language. All that had to be done was for the Arabs to accept their brothers just like the Jews did.

The crimes of the Arabs against their Jewish populations was indeed great. However the other Arab states did not "welcome" a massive influx of population, no more than most states in the same situation. Its also worth noting that the expulsion of the Sephradic Jews occurred over 19 years.

Bomb civilians in marketplaces and on public buses. Firing rockets into schoolyards. You know, the usual sort of thing..

You mean incidents, many of which type occur far more in the imagination than in reality, which might be expected from an occupied people with no recourse to the normal systems of reparation.....and of course the other bunch are completly blameless. They just parked the tanks, built a few colonies and really shouldnt have to put up with things like "borders" and worry about making bad situations worse.

If the Palestinians wanted a peaceful solution to the issue, they wouldnt have elected Hammas as their government. Isreal is the one bending over backwards here thanks to the US, it has given up land won in a war in which the Arab nations called for its destruction, and has even offered plans that would create a Palestinian state alongside Isreal...finally an answer to the problem, but so many dont want it, rather they want to kill all of the Isrealis who have shown time and time again that they are superior fighters. Hammas is the one at fault here.

If the Palestinians wanted a peaceful solution to the issue, they wouldnt have elected Hammas as their government. Isreal is the one bending over backwards here thanks to the US, it has given up land won in a war in which the Arab nations called for its destruction, and has even offered plans that would create a Palestinian state alongside Isreal...finally an answer to the problem, but so many dont want it, rather they want to kill all of the Isrealis who have shown time and time again that they are superior fighters. Hammas is the one at fault here.

It has no entitlement to the land whatsover. As a result of the wars, Jordanians are now a minority in their own country. Given the amount of complaing that goes on about Mexican immigrants, one would have thought that Americans consider that punishment enough.

I'm sorry but they did not expel Palestinians from their home. You'll note that it normal practice to try to repatriate refugees, rather than set them up a state.

Actually, Jordan did expel Palestinians from their homes. And today, it keeps Palestinians from their homes, along with Egypt, in refugee camps. Keep in mind, the largest existing Palestinian refugee camps, which are essentially prison camps, are in Jordan.

And, if you'd like to post your Benny Morris stats again, in context (assuming you have the text, and not just taking it off the internet), I think you'll find a large portion of the families expelled during the 48 war were expelled as a result of Jordanian attack, not as a result of Israeli explusion.

No mention of "kill all the Jews". Warmongering, but not genocidal.

The usual Arab rhetoric. And still no mention of "kill all the Jews". To accuse others of attempted genocide so fallasciously is rather a misuse of the memory of those who actually died at the hands of the prepatrators of the actual Holocaust, don't you think?

Lets see, we can find dozens and dozens of genocidal statements from Arab leaders. The Mufti in 1929 issued a fatwa that called for genocide, including the statement, ""Izbah Al-Yahud!" — "Slaughter the Jews!"

In addition, the Mufti was involved in the Holocaust. At least, according to a close aid of Eichmann and Himmler, Dieter Wiscleney, "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz."

The historical fact is that the Palestinians supported the Nazis, and major Palestinian leaders were directly involved in the Holocaust. If any side should be accused of genocide, its the side that took part in the Holocaust - the Palestinians.

Even today, the Palestinian leadership is calling for the extermination of all Jews. The HAMAS charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews."

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious."

"The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.""

The crimes of the Arabs against their Jewish populations was indeed great. However the other Arab states did not "welcome" a massive influx of population, no more than most states in the same situation. Its also worth noting that the expulsion of the Sephradic Jews occurred over 19 years.

Indeed great. Such as attacking a soverign state unprovoked, resulting in the mass displacement of fellow Arabs, and then keeping them in camps up through the present. Or participating in and supporting the Holocaust. Or the fact that more Jews were expelled from Iraq alone than Palestinians throughout the various wars.

Actually, Jordan did expel Palestinians from their homes. And today, it keeps Palestinians from their homes, along with Egypt, in refugee camps. Keep in mind, the largest existing Palestinian refugee camps, which are essentially prison camps, are in Jordan..

As the Palestinians - in many cases literally - have no home to now go to, that home being within Israel, thats really not the case.


And, if you'd like to post your Benny Morris stats again, in context (assuming you have the text, and not just taking it off the internet), I think you'll find a large portion of the families expelled during the 48 war were expelled as a result of Jordanian attack, not as a result of Israeli explusion..

Military action by Israeli/"zionist" forces. You might argue that the Arab states attack enabled them to do so, but thats beside the point.


Lets see, we can find dozens and dozens of genocidal statements from Arab leaders. The Mufti in 1929 issued a fatwa that called for genocide, including the statement, ""Izbah Al-Yahud!" — "Slaughter the Jews!"..

What did he say in 1947/48? Of the Arab states which attacked, which did he command? That is the time period we were discussing.


In addition, the Mufti was involved in the Holocaust. At least, according to a close aid of Eichmann and Himmler, Dieter Wiscleney, "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz."!"..

Then the mufti was a scumbag.



The historical fact is that the Palestinians supported the Nazis, and major Palestinian leaders were directly involved in the Holocaust. If any side should be accused of genocide, its the side that took part in the Holocaust - the Palestinians.."!"..

Really? So the Grand Mufti has suddenly transformed into "Palestinian leaders" who were "directly involved in the Holocaust". And from there into the general populace. Please give me the details of these others who were directly involved.


Even today, the Palestinian leadership is calling for the extermination of all Jews. The HAMAS charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews."
..

Yet today it appears they've accepted a two-state solution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5121164.stm
No doubt we'll soon here why this is unnacceptable to Israel too.



Indeed great. Such as attacking a soverign state unprovoked, resulting in the mass displacement of fellow Arabs, and then keeping them in camps up through the present. Or participating in and supporting the Holocaust.

Who else particpated in the Holocaust and actively supported it?

Yet today it appears they've accepted a two-state solution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5121164.stm
No doubt we'll soon here why this is unnacceptable to Israel too.

Interesting. If it was "Israel accepts two-state solution", TS would have plastered NS general with it as soon as it broke. Wonder why?

Then the mufti was a scumbag.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni (ca. 1895 - July 4, 1974, أمين الحسيني, alternatively spelt al-Husseini), the Mufti of Jerusalem, was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and a Muslim religious leader. Known for his anti-Zionism, al-Husayni fought against the establishment of a Jewish state in the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine. To this end, Husayni cooperated with Nazi Germany during World War II and helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS.

And more to the point, he was a friend of Hitler.

Upon al-Husayni's arrival in Europe, he met the German Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop on November 20, 1941 and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on November 28, 1941 in Berlin. He asked Hitler for a public declaration that "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation, and that it would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland". Earlier, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft of such a declaration, containing a clause:

Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.[2]

Hitler refused to make such a public announcement, but "made the following declaration, requesting the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:

1. He (the Führer) would carry on the fight until the last traces of the Jewish-Communist European hegemony had been obliterated.
2. In the course of this fight, the German army would - at a time that could not yet be specified, but in any case in the clearly foreseeable future - gain the southern exit of Caucasus.
3. As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Führer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the Vernichtung des...Judentums ['destruction of the Jewish element', sometimes taken to be a euphemism for 'annihilation of the Jews'] living under British protection in Arab lands.." [3]

The Mufti established close contacts with Bosnian and Albanian Muslim leaders and spent the remainder of the war conducting the following activities:

* Radio propaganda on behalf of Nazi Germany
* Espionage and the fifth column activities in Muslim regions of Europe and the Middle East
* Assisting with the formation of Muslim Waffen SS units in the Balkans
* The formation of schools and training centers for Muslim imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni



And more to the point, he was a friend of Hitler.

I thought that was covered fairly well by "scumbag". Nor did I dispute the grand tuftis Nazism. Your point?

to get back to the point, does the kidnap of a heavily armed soldier from a tank justify the invasion of civilian areas and inevitible collateral damage that follows the IDF around in response?

will the international community accept the 'targeted assination' of the elected Palestinian leadership as a response?

Condi seemed quite clear today in warning Israel off.

to get back to the point, does the kidnap of a heavily armed soldier from a tank justify the invasion of civilian areas and inevitible collateral damage that follows the IDF around in response?

will the international community accept the 'targeted assination' of the elected Palestinian leadership as a response?

Condi seemed quite clear today in warning Israel off.

Indeed. Sense from the Whitehouse. Who would have guessed?

It has no entitlement to the land whatsover. As a result of the wars, Jordanians are now a minority in their own country. Given the amount of complaing that goes on about Mexican immigrants, one would have thought that Americans consider that punishment enough.

Is it Isreal's fault that the Arab Alliance attacked them? No, if Isreal would have lost than there would be no Isreal. They have a right to survive, but people like you want to impede the progress of peace and the introduction of cooperation between both sides. Try to be logical and reasonable or you will always look like a fool...

to get back to the point, does the kidnap of a heavily armed soldier from a tank justify the invasion of civilian areas and inevitible collateral damage that follows the IDF around in response?

will the international community accept the 'targeted assination' of the elected Palestinian leadership as a response?

Condi seemed quite clear today in warning Israel off.


The kidnapping of Gilad Shalit and the murder of his comrades is despicable and an unwarranted escalation of violence. Israel pulled out of Gaza a year ago so the Palestinians have no right to be attacking Israelis. All Israel has gotten since the pullout was more violence and terror, rather than peace and security from appeasing the terrorists. But we all know what happens when you appease a terrorist; more terror.

The international community will ofcourse accept the targeted assasination of Hamas leadership, regardless if they were elected democratically. The fact is that they are terrorists and cotinue to finance and orchestrate terrorism. Hitler was also democratically elected people.

Condi called for diplomacy, but how do you deal diplomatically with people who kidnapped the soldier to begin with in order to make political gains. Please.

Nodinia and SR, your justification and apologetic attitude toward murderers and terrorists is nauseating.

Indeed. Sense from the Whitehouse. Who would have guessed?
Well, we don't want to have to invade a few more Middle Eastern countries right now, including Israel.

The international community will ofcourse accept the targeted assasination of Hamas leadership, regardless if they were elected democratically. The fact is that they are terrorists and cotinue to finance and orchestrate terrorism. Hitler was also democratically elected people.
GODWIN.

The world will not sit back and let israel murder the elected governemnt of the palestine, like they made it clear murdering Arafat was a no-no.

Condi called for diplomacy, but how do you deal diplomatically with people who kidnapped the soldier to begin with in order to make political gains. Please.

dont shell beaches and shoot children mught be a start. allow them to use their money to pay public servents and avert the impending humanitarian disaster. generally take your foot off their necks and let hamas get further co-opted into politics, like the Brits treated Sinn Fein. you asked the Palestinians to get rid of Fatah, which they did.


Nodinia and SR, your justification and apologetic attitude toward murderers and terrorists is nauseating.

at what point did i justify or apologise for this kidnapping? i said previously i hoped he would be released unharmed. fuck off with the high horse. seriously.

what i did say was i think israel are using this sorry story as an excuse to heighten tensions at a critical time. will hamas recognise the state of israel if the IDF are marauding across the gaza levelling homes in a futile attempt to find a guy, who lets face the horrible truth, may well have died from his injuries already.

Is it Isreal's fault that the Arab Alliance attacked them? No, if Isreal would have lost than there would be no Isreal. They have a right to survive, but people like you want to impede the progress of peace and the introduction of cooperation between both sides. Try to be logical and reasonable or you will always look like a fool...

I didn't really see the bit where I was not being logical or reasonable there...


The kidnapping of Gilad Shalit and the murder of his comrades is despicable and an unwarranted escalation of violence. ...

The killings of "militants" and civillians, then the mysterious car bomb that blew up the "militant" in Syria...and as ever, the ongoing facts of the occupation and settlements......nothing "unwarranted" there?

GODWIN.

The world will not sit back and let israel murder the elected governemnt of the palestine, like they made it clear murdering Arafat was a no-no.

None of the Hamas terrorists have the clout of Arafat - and Israel would be foolish to allow one to. Likely they would target the military wing and 'security' forces. (Most of which are former terrorist Hamas members)

dont shell beaches and shoot children mught be a start.
Um, the beach was proven to be a mine left by Hamas. They have become awfully quite since it was discovered and have offered no evidence to the contrary. They have yet to apologize to the families.

allow them to use their money to pay public servents and avert the impending humanitarian disaster. generally take your foot off their necks and let hamas get further co-opted into politics, like the Brits treated Sinn Fein. you asked the Palestinians to get rid of Fatah, which they did.
Their money??? Last I checked it was international charity - mostly from the US and Europe. Thair money... pshah!
Any humanitarian disaster is of their own creation - not anyone else can be blamed for their election of Hamas nor Hamas' refusal to accept a peaceful resolution to the problem. The power to avoid any humanitarian crisis is well within their own reach - but they would rather let the palestinian people suffer than abandon their violence and haterd. I can't feel sorry for the palestinians - they elected them! Fools. Reap the concenquences.


what i did say was i think israel are using this sorry story as an excuse to heighten tensions at a critical time. will hamas recognise the state of israel if the IDF are marauding across the gaza levelling homes in a futile attempt to find a guy, who lets face the horrible truth, may well have died from his injuries already.
What right did the palestinians have to invade and attack these people? Was that soldier or the others wanted for any crimes? No - it was cold blooded murder and the palestinians not only know that - they refuse to now hand over the hostage - let alone the people responsible. They DO know where he is - the Egyptians were even able to provide medical aid to him. Now the Isralis are going to do the same thing - but unlike the palestinians who were unprovoked - the Isralis were attacked, killed and a hostage taken. They requested aid from the palestinians and it was refused. So - once again - concenquences. The fools should have considered that BEFORE they attacked Israel. They did it specifically to prevent the palestinians from recognizing Israel. -and it worked. The palestinians demonstrate time and time again that they are a nations of fools run by murderers...

Um, the beach was proven to be a mine left by Hamas. They have become awfully quite since it was discovered and have offered no evidence to the contrary. They have yet to apologize to the families.


Um, actually HRW (who were on the ground) said that the ordinance matched neither an IDF naval shell, nor the wounds of the dead matched the claim of a mine.

They said most probably an unexploded artillery shell was the cause.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5080760.stm June 14th
Major General Meir Klifi, who headed the inquiry, has acknowledged the possibility that it might have been old Israeli ordnance.

On top of that, a military expert for the Human Rights Watch organisation, Mark Garlasco, says the evidence he has seen points to Israeli shelling as the cause.

He has been to the site of the blast. And he happens to be a former Pentagon intelligence analyst.

The problem is that, short of an examination of the evidence by an outside panel of experts, it is difficult to assess the real strength of the different cases.

The Israelis point to the comprehensiveness of their probe. But they could not examine the scene themselves.

And without clear evidence to support alternative explanations, they remain on the defensive.

Mr Garlasco has some relevant credentials. And he has been to the spot. But he has only limited resources

June 21st
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5104010.stm

A US-based human rights group has questioned an Israel army report that exonerated troops of killing eight Palestinian civilians on a Gaza beach.

An investigation that refuses to look at contradictory evidence can hardly be credible," Human Rights Watch said.

Israeli investigators declined to inspect evidence gathered by other sources, saying it may have been faked.
.....
But evidence collected by Human Rights Watch indicated the civilians were killed within the time period of Israeli shelling of the beach, contrary to Israel's assertions, a statement from the group says.