NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not a Christian(I am a Socialist), and whenever I hear people say "Socalists are Anti-Christian" that pisses me off. Here are quotes by several well-known Christian Socialists.

"He accompanied me in difficult times, in crucial moments. So Jesus Christ is no doubt a historical figure — he was someone who rebelled, an anti-imperialist guy. He confronted the Roman Empire.... Because who might think that Jesus was a capitalist? No. Judas was the capitalist, for taking the coins! Christ was a revolutionary. He confronted the religious hierarchies. He confronted the economic power of the time. He preferred death in the defense of his humanistic ideals, who fostered change.... He is our Jesus Christ."
-Hugo Rafael Chavez Frias

"If we all came of the same father and mother, of Adam and Eve, how can they say or prove that they are better than we, if it be not that they make us gain for them by our toil what they spend in their pride?"
-John Ball

"True compassion is more than flinging a coin at a beggar; it comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

So IN YOUR FACE, CHRISTIAN RIGHT! Many devout Christians are left-wing and/or socialist, and there is nothing un-Christian about Socialism.

There's a bible verse (in Acts I think) that I remember that basically sais that the first christian community was socialist - before socialism existed! (I'm a christian and a socialist/anarchist, but one didn't bring the other about)

I'm not a Christian(I am a Socialist), and whenever I hear people say "Socalists are Anti-Christian" that pisses me off. Here are quotes by several well-known Christian Socialists.

"He accompanied me in difficult times, in crucial moments. So Jesus Christ is no doubt a historical figure — he was someone who rebelled, an anti-imperialist guy. He confronted the Roman Empire.... Because who might think that Jesus was a capitalist? No. Judas was the capitalist, for taking the coins! Christ was a revolutionary. He confronted the religious hierarchies. He confronted the economic power of the time. He preferred death in the defense of his humanistic ideals, who fostered change.... He is our Jesus Christ."
-Hugo Rafael Chavez Frias

"If we all came of the same father and mother, of Adam and Eve, how can they say or prove that they are better than we, if it be not that they make us gain for them by our toil what they spend in their pride?"
-John Ball

"True compassion is more than flinging a coin at a beggar; it comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

So IN YOUR FACE, CHRISTIAN RIGHT! Many devout Christians are left-wing and/or socialist, and there is nothing un-Christian about Socialism.


And yet Christ never used a single penny of Gov't money.............

:fluffle:


<---Fundamentalist.

There's a bible verse (in Acts I think) that I remember that basically sais that the first christian community was socialist - before socialism existed! (I'm a christian and a socialist/anarchist, but one didn't bring the other about)

?

And yet Christ never used a single penny of Gov't money.............

:fluffle:


<---Fundamentalist.

Because the evil capitalist government wouldn't give Jesus a single penny of their money.

There's a bible verse (in Acts I think) that I remember that basically sais that the first christian community was socialist - before socialism existed! (I'm a christian and a socialist/anarchist, but one didn't bring the other about)

I rest my case. I though Socialists and Anarchists were polar opposites? Like I said before, I'm a Socialist, and I disagree with Anarchists on pretty much everything. How can you be both?

There's a bible verse (in Acts I think) that I remember that basically sais that the first christian community was socialist - before socialism existed!

acts 2:44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

and

acts 4:32-35
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

I though Socialists and Anarchists were polar opposites?

they aren't polar opposites, even if you are using a narrow definition of 'socialist', though they would be distinctly different. however, socialism also has a broad definition, which anarchism has always fallen under.

And yet Christ never used a single penny of Gov't money

which has precisely nothing to do with anything

they aren't polar opposites, even if you are using a narrow definition of 'socialist', though they would be distinctly different. however, socialism also has a broad definition, which anarchism has always fallen under.

i see...

acts 2:44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

and

acts 4:32-35
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.


proof right there

There's a bible verse (in Acts I think) that I remember that basically sais that the first christian community was socialist - before socialism existed! (I'm a christian and a socialist/anarchist, but one didn't bring the other about)
How can you be a christian anarchist?

acts 2:44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

and

acts 4:32-35
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
there is a difference between loving your neighbor and helping them, and having the government control all of your belongings and distribute them throughout the land without your consent.

Is it really a loving sacrifice if you are forced to do so? but then that gets off topic doesn't it?

And yet Christ never used a single penny of Gov't money.............


Jesus encouraged people not to horde their money but to give it, which is what a socialist government does.

Jesus encouraged people not to horde their money but to give it, which is what a socialist government does.
actually he advocated loving your neighbor and helping your fellow man, and also you know like, investing your money to make more, like in...what? Capitalism.

Matthew 25:14-30

there is a difference between loving your neighbor and helping them, and having the government control all of your belongings and distribute them throughout the land without your consent.

good thing that isn't at all part of any reasonable definition of socialism then, no?

actually he advocated loving your neighbor and helping your fellow man, and also you know like, investing your money to make more, like in...what? Capitalism.

Matthew 25:14-30

because we all know that socialism is fundamentally based not on the idea of creating more wealth, but burying it out in the yard...


interestingly, it seems that in this case jesus wasn't making a pun (unlike in most of the rest of the gospels) - our word 'talent' is actually a metaphorical extension of its use in the parable.

Socialism is too anti-Christ (not THE anti-Christ, just one of the many anti-Christ movements in the world)


But before I go on- first- explain to me the difference between Socialism and Communism.

would you all just shut up we didnt ever come from the same mother or father cause then all our blood would be similar, and in the bible it say adam and eve had 2 sons. how can 2 sons have a baby?:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

But before I go on- first- explain to me the difference between Socialism and Communism.

in the sense being used here, the set 'socialism' contains the set 'communism', but the set 'communism' does not contain the set 'socialism'.

would you all just shut up we didnt ever come from the same mother or father cause then all our blood would be similar, and in the bible it say adam and eve had 2 sons. how can 2 sons have a baby?:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:


Humans do have similar DNA, and Cain and Abel were just their first offspring, they had daughters, you know

Jesus encouraged people not to horde their money but to give it, which is what a socialist government does.

and god periodically struck dead those that didn't give everything they had to the collective - acts 5:1-11

jesus was a hippie socialist, but the holy spirit is a fucking stalinist.

and god periodically struck dead those that didn't give everything they had to the collective - acts 5:1-11

jesus was a hippie socialist, but the holy spirit is a fucking stalinist.


Two bald-faced liars, not random people. Ananias and Sapphira refused to give what they had and lied to Peter- and to an extent, God, about it.

He rebelled against an evil dictatorship, not a capatalist society.

Two bald-faced liars, not random people. Ananias and Sapphira refused to give what they had and lied to Peter- and to an extent, God, about it.

i don't recall saying otherwise

He rebelled against an evil dictatorship, not a capatalist society.

REG: And what have they ever given us in return?!
XERXES: The aqueduct?
REG: What?
XERXES: The aqueduct.
REG: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.
COMMANDO #3: And the sanitation.
LORETTA: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like?
REG: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done.
MATTHIAS: And the roads.
REG: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--
COMMANDO: Irrigation.
XERXES: Medicine.
COMMANDO #2: Education.
COMMANDOS: Ohh...
REG: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.
COMMANDO #1: And the wine.
COMMANDOS: Oh, yes. Yeah...
FRANCIS: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.
COMMANDO: Public baths.
LORETTA: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.
FRANCIS: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.
COMMANDOS: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.
REG: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
XERXES: Brought peace.
REG: Oh. Peace? Shut up!

I rest my case. I though Socialists and Anarchists were polar opposites? Like I said before, I'm a Socialist, and I disagree with Anarchists on pretty much everything. How can you be both?

Depends on the species of anarchism, but the most common kind of anarchist is actually ideologically very close to the communist. Essentially, Marx argued that communism would occur after the proletariat revolted and seized control of the government apparatus, using it to rebuild society along a socialist economic model, after which the state would wither away from lack of need. Bakunin and other anarchists developed their anarchism as a critique of Marxism, arguing that because the state apparatus is a product of capitalism, it too must be destroyed when the proletariat seize the means of production.

So in short, the difference between Marxism and anarchism is a question of what to do with the state during a communist revolution: use it to implement communism, or destroy it completely.

Humans do have similar DNA, and Cain and Abel were just their first offspring, they had daughters, you know
Incest or monkeys... Incest or monkeys....

there is nothing un-Christian about Socialism.

Yeah?

"Thou shall not steal."

Yeah?

"Thou shall not steal."
Thou shall not share?

Thou shall not share?

I shall if I feel like it!

People tend to forget that Marx was a devout Christian.

Yeah?

"Thou shall not steal."

what of it?

what of it?

Taxes are theft, of course.

I shall if I feel like it!

and you will 'feel like it', or else god will strike you dead

"Leave unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

An admonition to voluntarism, not state enforced socialism, or moralism for that matter. If I should so choose as to not be a monk in my lifetime, that is my choice, and it carries with it the inevitable repercussions in another life.

Christ was sent as a spiritual savior, not as a political leader.

Taxes are theft, of course.
Seeing the government programs being backed by this administration, I'm headed to thinking in that direction.

And yet Christ never used a single penny of Gov't money.............

People who rebel against the government usually don't. :rolleyes:

there is a difference between loving your neighbor and helping them, and having the government control all of your belongings and distribute them throughout the land without your consent.

That's where democracy comes in. "Believers" can be interpreted as "majority voters" if you're applying it to politics.

actually he advocated loving your neighbor and helping your fellow man, and also you know like, investing your money to make more, like in...what? Capitalism.
In Capitalism you don't love your fellow man, you just exploit him for your own gain. You don't value his rights beyond what works in your personal interest.

Yeah?

"Thou shall not steal."
Proper tea is theft.

Seriously though, you can't claim that the current distribution of wealth, still less that in Roman times, is just and fair.

People tend to forget that Marx was a devout Christian.
I thought he was a Jew.

Taxes are theft, of course.

i prefer the diggers' line:

"And hereupon, The Earth (which was made to be a Common Treasury of relief for all, both Beasts and Men) was hedged in to In-closures by the teachers and rulers, and the others were made Servants and Slaves: And that Earth that is within this Creation made a Common Store-house for all, is bought and sold, and kept in the hands of a few, whereby the great Creator is mightily dishonored, as if he were a respector of persons, delighting in the comfortable Livelihood of some, and rejoycing in the miserable povertie and straits of others. From the beginning it was not so."

and you will 'feel like it', or else god will strike you dead

That's not the bargain! The bargain is if I don't feel like it, I can live my life normally, but god molests me when I die.

i prefer the diggers' line:

"And hereupon, The Earth (which was made to be a Common Treasury of relief for all, both Beasts and Men) was hedged in to In-closures by the teachers and rulers, and the others were made Servants and Slaves: And that Earth that is within this Creation made a Common Store-house for all, is bought and sold, and kept in the hands of a few, whereby the great Creator is mightily dishonored, as if he were a respector of persons, delighting in the comfortable Livelihood of some, and rejoycing in the miserable povertie and straits of others. From the beginning it was not so."

Meh. To each his own.

But to me it sounds like a Commandment holds more weight than a rambling about "dishonoring" the Creator.

Seeing the government programs being backed by this administration, I'm headed to thinking in that direction.

IN truth, it doesn't matter what the government does with the funds. It gets them by force.

Proper tea is theft.

Seriously though, you can't claim that the current distribution of wealth, still less that in Roman times, is just and fair.


Well, that's a loaded statement, since I don't claim it to be "fair" in the sense you mean it.

And I don't think the distribution of wealth has to do with justice, anymore than the distribution of who gets skin cancer.

In Capitalism you don't love your fellow man, you just exploit him for your own gain. You don't value his rights beyond what works in your personal interest.

You understand so little of capitalism that it's not funny. Get off the Marx and get on to some actual, credible economic theory.

In capitalism, when you're dealing with market, you respect your fellow man's rights, because he respects your rights. If this doesn't work, the system breaks down into chaos, with people bombing their competitors buildings and shit like that.

Beyond that, capitalism does not profess to be a moral code. It does not profess to be a governmental system, instead it is just a manner in which goods and wealth are produced. It works best when a stable, rights respecting democratic government is in power, and if people have the moral decency to not go out of their way to harm other people. But it does not pass any judgement on the other societal mechanisms, because it is not the other societal mechanisms. It is objective and rational.

"Leave unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

An admonition to voluntarism, not state enforced socialism, or moralism for that matter.

why does no one read the lines before that one?

Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be honest. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. So the spies questioned him: "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

He saw through their duplicity...


Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldn't we?"

But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked.

That's not the bargain! The bargain is if I don't feel like it, I can live my life normally, but god molests me when I die.

not according to 'the acts of the apostles' bit i quoted before. god is a stalinist and he'll strike you dead for not paying up in full.

not according to 'the acts of the apostles' bit i quoted before. god is a stalinist and he'll strike you dead for not paying up in full.

If so, he is not as effective as Stalin. I mean it's demonstrably untrue. I've committed like all seven of the deadly sins, and yet here I stand. (Well, sit. Slothfully.)

why does no one read the lines before that one?
I don't see how my statements run contrary.

Let others do as they will, concern yourself with yourself.

I don't see how my statements run contrary.

Let others do as they will, concern yourself with yourself.

that is not at all what the passage actually says, nor does it make any sense within the context of jesus knowing that spys and herodians were trying to get him to incriminate himself by asking the question.

If so, he is not as effective as Stalin. I mean it's demonstrably untrue. I've committed like all seven of the deadly sins, and yet here I stand. (Well, sit. Slothfully.)

yeah, but that's 'cause stalin actually existed

Rather than a monarchy, I would call Jesus' kingdom a theocracy.

A huge difference between Jesus' teachings and socialism is that Jesus advocates doing charity and helping the needy because it is a part of our Christian selves and our hearts inspire us to do it, not because the .gov requires it of us.

What profiteth good works if we do them with an unwilling heart?

A huge difference between Jesus' teachings and socialism is that Jesus advocates doing charity and helping the needy because it is a part of our Christian selves and our hearts inspire us to do it

which is different from what various socialist groups have called for since the beginning how, exactly?

which is different from what various socialist groups have called for since the beginning how, exactly?
Jesus didn't wear a black hat and cackle mischievously.

Everybody knows that Jesus was the first modern anarchist :D
-Going around, spreading a message which was subversive to the powers-that-be of the time
-He is portrayed as having long, unkempt hair (many other anarchists like Peter Kroptokin (sp?) went on to emulate this)
-Drifted from one place to another with his followers

Isn't it great how much you can skew history, like this? :D

Christian Socialism....Great. Made up of REAL good components. An opressive and arbitary system that opresses minorities and destroys individual rights. And then there's the socialist bit too:p

-He is portrayed as having long, unkempt hair (many other anarchists like Peter Kroptokin (sp?) went on to emulate this)

though kropotkin kept his mainly in the chin and cheek area

Jesus didn't wear a black hat and cackle mischievously.

he probably did in a few of the gnostic texts. or in the secret gospel of mark.

Do you ever get the feeling that someone switched Mel Gibson DVDs at the vidstore and a load of yanks think Mad Max is the Passion of Christ?

Do you ever get the feeling that someone switched Mel Gibson DVDs at the vidstore and a load of yanks think Mad Max is the Passion of Christ?

that would explain all the references to the ruling of barter town, wouldn't it?

In capitalism, when you're dealing with market, you respect your fellow man's rights, because he respects your rights.
But in the real world, unregulated industrialists don't respect their desparate workers' rights to shelter, food, and healthcare.

Well, that's a loaded statement, since I don't claim it to be "fair" in the sense you mean it.

And I don't think the distribution of wealth has to do with justice, anymore than the distribution of who gets skin cancer.
It has everything to do with justice. Those who have more money enjoy a higher quality of life as if it is their right.

Taxes are not theft. Taking more than your fair share of the resources that God gave us is theft.

yeah, but that's 'cause stalin actually existed
God is real, but he won't strike you down with a lightning bolt. He will punish or reward you after this life.

Rather than a monarchy, I would call Jesus' kingdom a theocracy.

A huge difference between Jesus' teachings and socialism is that Jesus advocates doing charity and helping the needy because it is a part of our Christian selves and our hearts inspire us to do it, not because the .gov requires it of us.

What profiteth good works if we do them with an unwilling heart?
Socialism is not legislated charity. It is legislated justice.

For someone who has advocated government positions on gay marriage simply because it is "the Christian way" this smacks of hypocrisy quite a lot. Pharisee.

Socialists just can't tell the difference between socialism and charity - that's all - Jesus had not interest in the affairs of government or other worldly issues. Wealth to Jesus was no more interesting than baby toys are to the rest of us.