NationStates Jolt Archive

One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. In 1947, the British considered the Israelis terrorists. Now the Israelis consider the Palestinians terrorists for using similar tactics to attain similar ends. The correlation does exist, but it's a transient thing.

i always love it how stupid left wingers love to criticize isreal. firstly a terrorist is someone who attacks civillian targets a freedom fighter will attack military targets. Isreal while fighting for independance warned the british government before it's attack on the king david hotel which at the time was being used as a military headquarters for the british mandate not as a hotel. to educate all you anti isreal people i would like you to look at a few websites...
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict.asp

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/index.htm

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Four_Points_Arguments_for_Israel.asp

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/index.html

these websites are very useful click around on some of them to look for more information or you can do your own research by typing in for example. the arab isreali conflict on google.

and for all of u anti isreal people out there i live u with this smiley :upyours:

In other words you're willfully ignorant and anyone who doesn't join you in your ignorance is a bigot. I'm done with you. Nothing productive can come of this.
slander, biggotry and double standards... that's the only language you understand and the only arguments you have.

i don't need to read books, i've heard Bin Laden talk all over the news, i've watched documentaries about saudi arabia and afghanistan, i have a friend living in dubai. i know muslims who are not like him, so i don't make bigot generalisations like you people do, trying to find correlations between islam and terror, as if this was a unique relationship.

obviously, nothing productive can come out of you, since there is only one language you understand; hate and violence.

i always love (..bollocks, half truths and shite I've read before by the last one post arse-merchant....)
and for all of u anti isreal people out there i live u with this smiley :upyours:

I see the Rabbinical tradition is genuinely being eroded by popular culture.....

Actually, if you don't read the writings of the militant Islamists, you have no idea why they're doing what they're doing. And it makes you intellectually inferior, and completely uninformed if you haven't read them.
read my previous post... you hate-spitting slanderer...

i always love it how stupid left wingers love to criticize isreal. firstly a terrorist is someone who attacks civillian targets a freedom fighter will attack military targets. Isreal while fighting for independance warned the british government before it's attack on the king david hotel which at the time was being used as a military headquarters for the british mandate not as a hotel. to educate all you anti isreal people i would like you to look at a few websites...
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict.asp

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/index.htm

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Four_Points_Arguments_for_Israel.asp

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/index.html

these websites are very useful click around on some of them to look for more information or you can do your own research by typing in for example. the arab isreali conflict on google.

and for all of u anti isreal people out there i live u with this smiley :upyours:
whose muppet is this i wander?

read my previous post... you hate-spitting slanderer...
I see - if I read what the militant Islamist says, and they say "kill every Westerner", then you tell me that's not a valid thing to read, and somehow biased.

And if I read what any US government report says, that's not valid either, and somehow biased.

And if I don't agree with you, on the basis of your zero evidence, I'm a "hate spitting" slanderer.

I see the Rabbinical tradition is genuinely being eroded by popular culture.....
the sad thing is that ignorant people like him actually think they are doing israel a favour... :D

a shame for all peace-loving jews...

slander, biggotry and double standards... that's the only language you understand and the only arguments you have.

i don't need to read books, i've heard Bin Laden talk all over the news, i've watched documentaries about saudi arabia and afghanistan, i have a friend living in dubai. i know muslims who are not like him, so i don't make bigot generalisations like you people do, trying to find correlations between islam and terror, as if this was a unique relationship.

obviously, nothing productive can come out of you, since there is only one language you understand; hate and violence.
Fuck it. I'll amuse myself a bit by toying with you.

First of all, I'm not sure I've ever heard a more blatantly stupid statement than "I don't need to read books". I guess you can learn everything from TV. I saw a program on the human body on PBS once. Need me to remove your brain tumor?

You've got a friend in Dubai? And he's not a terrorist? Gee, that's amazing. Not that he's not a terrorist, but that someone like you could actually make a friend.

I see - if I read what the militant Islamist says, and they say "kill every Westerner", then you tell me that's not a valid thing to read, and somehow biased.
don't twist my arguments. i didn't say that what militant islamists say isn't valid. i said:
i don't need to read hate words to learn how the world works, thank you.
plus:
i don't need to read books, i've heard Bin Laden talk all over the news, i've watched documentaries about saudi arabia and afghanistan, i have a friend living in dubai. i know muslims who are not like him, so i don't make bigot generalisations like you people do, trying to find correlations between islam and terror, as if this was a unique relationship.
And if I read what any US government report says, that's not valid either, and somehow biased.
any report coming out of a former CIA operative is potentially biased or do you want me to start taking the word of Bin Laden? i rather stick to more neutral sources, thanks. plus, he certainly hasn't interviewed all the islamic fundamentalists that blew themselves up, so his "statistics" are worth little.
And if I don't agree with you, on the basis of your zero evidence, I'm a "hate spitting" slanderer.
you don't need to agree with me, just stop throwing spurious and subversive arguments like calling me "intellectually inferior" based on empty arguments and throwing mud at islam, based on your ignorance of it. intellect building does not require reading books full of hate words. in fact, it doesn't even require reading books at all these days; ever heard about the internet? have you bothered reading the Qu'ran (available online), particularly the bit that clearly states that Jihad is only allowed for self-defence and should never target women and children? i doubt it. instead, you choose to read the hate-spitters and judge a whole faith based on their views.

you don't need to agree with me, just stop throwing spurious and subversive arguments like calling me "intellectually inferior" based on empty arguments and throwing mud at islam, based on your ignorance of it. intellect building does not require reading books full of hate words. in fact, it doesn't even require reading books at all these days; ever heard about the internet? have you bothered reading the Qu'ran (available online), particularly the bit that clearly states that Jihad is only allowed for self-defence and should never target women and children? i doubt it. instead, you choose to read the hate-spitters and judge a whole faith based on their views.

Guess who wrote this report to Congress on the foundations for attacking America, given by an Islamic ambassador:

… that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every [Muslim] who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Who wrote that? No, not that awful Chimpy or Rumsfeld or Rice or the neo-cons. It was a bit earlier, 1786, by John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, whose war on the Barbary pirates we noted in passing some time ago. It may be hard to believe but real men actually existed before our wussified time. They did not avert their eyes because of the suicidal insanity called Political Correctness.

Fuck it. I'll ammuse myself a bit by toying with you.
toying with me? ahahahahahahah i'm not the one getting annoyed to the point of loosing my rationality and using swear words... i'm the one toying with you, i'm afraid. it's just that you're so blinded by your anger that you cannot see it. let me draw you a picture of what is going on...

[Drunk commies deleted] :headbang: :D [Assis]

see the wall separating us? it's a few meters thick right now...
First of all, I'm not sure I've ever heard a more blatantly stupid statement than "I don't need to read books". I guess you can learn everything from TV. I saw a program on the human body on PBS once.
poor you... you should join an anger-management program to control those stress hormones...i've read plenty of books in my life before, these days i rather spend my time on the internet (it's cheaper).
Need me to remove your brain tumor?
no thanks, right now my "brain tumour" seems to be working better than your brain. (wishing my death now? dear me, now i'm afraid...)
You've got a friend in Dubai? And he's not a terrorist? Gee, that's amazing. Not that he's not a terrorist, but that someone like you could actually make a friend.
actually, it's a she and she's white, blond, blue-eyed and from belgium. i have many, many good friends... jews, christians, muslims, atheists, blacks, whites, yellows, chinese, english, american, french, spanish, brasilian, to name but a few... all thanks to my lack of sense of racial or religious superiority and my peace-loving nature... i wander if you can say the same... i very much doubt it...

Over 100 Koranic verses exhort believers to wage jihad against unbelievers. “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly” (Koran 47:4). This is emphasized repeatedly. Jews and Christians are among those to be fought: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Koran 9:29).

There is no doubt that Muhammad meant such verses literally.

In the 1970s the terrorist attacks (far more than today) were coming from the German Red Army (Baader-Meinhof Gang), the Italian Red Brigades, the Basque ETA, Greece's November 17, France's National Front for the Liberation of Corsica (NFLN), and the Irish Republican Army.


ETA killed 800 people from 1968 to 2003
The IRA killed 1,775 people over a 27-year period
NFLN mounted hundreds of bomb attacks and occasional assassination attempts since the mid-1970s
German Red Army kidnapped business leaders, gunned down politicians, prosecutors and police officers, bombed corporation headquarters and U.S. military bases, and hijacked an airliner
November 17 claimed responsibility for more than 20 killings from 1975 to 2002. Among those it assassinated were a CIA station chief, a U.S. Navy captain, defense attaches at the British and American embassies, and a Turkish diplomat.
Red Brigades killed hundreds of government officials, judges and lawyers, and police officers. In 1978, Red Brigades members kidnapped and murdered former Prime Minister Aldo Moro.


Is there a correlation between European secularism and terror?

In the 1970s the terrorist attacks (far more than today) were coming from the German Red Army (Baader-Meinhof Gang), the Italian Red Brigades, the Basque ETA, Greece's November 17, France's National Front for the Liberation of Corsica (NFLN), and the Irish Republican Army.


ETA killed 800 people from 1968 to 2003
The IRA killed 1,775 people over a 27-year period
NFLN mounted hundreds of bomb attacks and occasional assassination attempts since the mid-1970s
German Red Army kidnapped business leaders, gunned down politicians, prosecutors and police officers, bombed corporation headquarters and U.S. military bases, and hijacked an airliner
November 17 claimed responsibility for more than 20 killings from 1975 to 2002. Among those it assassinated were a CIA station chief, a U.S. Navy captain, defense attaches at the British and American embassies, and a Turkish diplomat.
Red Brigades killed hundreds of government officials, judges and lawyers, and police officers. In 1978, Red Brigades members kidnapped and murdered former Prime Minister Aldo Moro.


Is there a correlation between European secularism and terror?


Between Communist belief and terror, yes.

It's extremist ideas, not a particular race.

When someone says they have "Given their lives to Christ" that usually doesn't mean they will be strapping on a bomb vest and heading to the nearest abortion clinic. When you hear a muslim say that you take the safety off of your pistol.

actually, it's a she and she's white, blond, blue-eyed and from belgium. i have many, many good friends... jews, christians, muslims, atheists, blacks, whites, yellows, chinese, english, american, french, spanish, brasilian, to name but a few... all thanks to my lack of sense of racial or religious superiority and my peace-loving nature... i wander if you can say the same... i very much doubt it...
You're a bigot just trying to cover up your sick beliefs by claiming to be friends with non-whites. I've already established that you're a liar by showing that you're dishonest about what others have posted and that you claim to know what you're talking about when clearly you don't. You're a liar, and a racist.

There is no doubt that Muhammad meant such verses literally.

It is reassuring to know that you have your own interpretation of the Koran that you have utter faith in, much like some other individuals who relish war and destruction and death, that you have "no doubt" about your interpretation.

It is reassuring to know that you have your own interpretation of the Koran that you have utter faith in, much like some other individuals who relish war and destruction and death, that you have "no doubt" about your interpretation.
I have no doubt that the militant Islamists who use the Koran as justification believe that Mohammed meant every word.

These words are as harmless as those you find in the Bible (very similar, in most respects) until you put them into the hands and minds of militants.

Koran 9:29
Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.

Koran 8:12
Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Koran 9:73
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.

Koran 4:144
Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?

Koran 47:4
When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

Koran 5:33-34
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful.

Instructions to Muslims regarding Christians and Jews

Prophet Mohammed has reserved special position for certain sects of Unbelievers in his so called "Holy Book" Koran. Those unbelievers are none other than followers of Christianity and Judaism.

Koran 5:51
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

Koran 5:57
Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime...

Koran 5:64
The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!...

Koran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.

Koran 9:30
The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christinas call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth.

Over 100 Koranic verses exhort believers to wage jihad against unbelievers. “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly” (Koran 47:4).
well, you are proving that the Qu'ran demands "binding" captives, not executing them, so you are prooving that islamic fundamentalists that execute prisoners are certainly not good islamists. thanks for prooving my point. as to striking heads in the battlefield, it's no better or worse than putting a bullet through their head (at the time bullets didn't exist, remember?)...

This is emphasized repeatedly. Jews and Christians are among those to be fought: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Koran 9:29).

There is no doubt that Muhammad meant such verses literally.
want me to quote the crimes punishable by death in the bible? they include stoning unbelievers, people who curse their parents, adultery, incest, sleeping with a woman during her period, etc...

i say we should fight a war on terrorist christians and jews, because their old testament is barbaric...

i say we should fight a war on terrorist christians and jews, because their old testament is barbaric...
Proof that you didn't read my post, where I said the problem comes when you have militants reading and believing this kind of stuff.

But you can't be bothered to read posts - you already know everything.

You're a bigot just trying to cover up your sick beliefs by claiming to be friends with non-whites. I've already established that you're a liar by showing that you're dishonest about what others have posted and that you claim to know what you're talking about when clearly you don't. You're a liar, and a racist.
ahahahahahah.... i'm the one defending islam here, despite being agnostic and quoting jesus in my signature remember.... pathetic attempt...

ahahahahahah.... i'm the one defending islam here, despite being agnostic and quoting jesus in my signature remember.... pathetic attempt...
You're not defending Islam, you're displaying the patronizing attitude of one who feels himself superior. Clearly you're a white supremacist, Christian-Identity racist. In fact, I wouldn't put it past you to be one of those neo nazi terrorists who run around the woods masturbating to race war.

And what's with writing "ahahahaha"? That's kind of corny.

You're not defending Islam, you're displaying the patronizing attitude of one who feels himself superior. Clearly you're a white supremacist, Christian-Identity racist. In fact, I wouldn't put it past you to be one of those neo nazi terrorists who run around the woods masturbating to race war.

And what's with writing "ahahahaha"? That's kind of corny.
please continue... you're exposing how pathetic your own beliefs are...

Proof that you didn't read my post, where I said the problem comes when you have militants reading and believing this kind of stuff.

But you can't be bothered to read posts - you already know everything.
alas, you seem to have been able to make a clear distinction between fundamentalists/terrorists and islam...

if that is truly the case and you're not faking it, then i praise the fact that you have finally opened your eyes...

p.s. sorry but "no" i hadn't read your post, because i was still answering your previous one.

...
again, if you're honest about your last post, i'm happy to (virtually) shake hands with you... no hard feelings...
do you accept my invitation?

please continue... you're exposing how pathetic your own beliefs are...
And you're demonstrating that you're not bright enough to figure out that I'm just fucking with you. There really is no sense actually trying to debate someone like you who is proud of the fact he's never read a book on the subject he's talking about.

And you're demonstrating that you're not bright enough to figure out that I'm just fucking with you. There really is no sense actually trying to debate someone like you who is proud of the fact he's never read a book on the subject he's talking about.
you're the one who keeps swearing and resorting to name-calling and i'm the one who is not bright? if that is the kind of attitude you take out of the books you read, i don't need to read them thanks. what exactly does "f***ing with me" means?

you're the one who keeps swearing and resorting to name-calling and i'm the one who is not bright? what exactly does "f***ing with me" means?
I'm bored now. You're still ignorant about Islamist terrorism.

I'm bored now. You're still ignorant about Islamist terrorism.
you're not bored. you've ran out of arguments...

you're not bored. you've ran out of arguments...
At least I had some to begin with. I even posted a source to back them up. What did you post? Loads of your own bullshit opinions with nothing to back them up. Also some indignant bitching that points to a persecution complex, and some comments that show that you've made ignorance a virtue.

It does get boring posting to someone like you. Just as boring as arguing evolution to a creationist.

At least I had some to begin with. I even posted a source to back them up. What did you post? Loads of your own bullshit opinions with nothing to back them up. Also some indignant bitching that points to a persecution complex, and some comments that show that you've made ignorance a virtue.

It does get boring posting to someone like you. Just as boring as arguing evolution to a creationist.
you're are forgetting a vital point: i didn't have to present evidence to prove the innocence of a faith; it is you who must provide evidence to make a direct "correlation between islam and terror" and that no believer of other faith or lack of isn't prone to it either (in the same set of circumstances)...

if i'm ignorant and still a non-bigot, then i prefer to stick to my ignorance than adopt your fake intellectuality, which seems to amount to a load of hatefull garbage thrown into your brain without any logic or common sense.

you're are forgetting a vital point: i didn't have to present evidence to prove the innocence of a faith; it is you who must provide evidence to make a direct "correlation between islam and terror", as if any other faith or lack of wasn't prone to it either...

if i'm ignorant and still a non-bigot, then i prefer to stick to my ignorance than adopt your fake intellectuality, which seems to amount to a load of garbage thrown into your brain without any logic or common sense.
I never said all muslims were guilty of terrorism. You'll notice that in every one of my posts where Islam was mentioned I was careful to say that only certain types of Islamic theology were involved in terrorism. Two that I cited specifically were the Wahabi branch and Deobandi branch.

You're not only ignorant, you can't read well.

I never said all muslims were guilty of terrorism. You'll notice that in every one of my posts where Islam was mentioned I was careful to say that only certain types of Islamic theology were involved in terrorism. Two that I cited specifically were the Wahabi branch and Deobandi branch.

You're not only ignorant, you can't read well.
well, the OP was clearly biased, yet i heard no word from you denouncing it. instead, you decided to attack my initial argument that the large majority of terrorist groups are islamic fundamentalists, because the large majority of oppressed people in the word are muslim. you failed to address issues like poverty and decades of oppression supported by western states.

it is the first time i hear you making that distinction very clearly. i didn't hear a word from you defending peace-loving muslims or accusing islamic fundamentalists as not representative of islam. i didn't hear you considering the possibility that there might be primary root causes, regardless of faith.

when you repeatedly connect words like "muslim" and "islamic" with "terrorists", without making those distinctions, you are supporting biggotry and religious hatred, even if you don't mean or realise it.

if you really feel that way, i don't understand why you decided to pick on me first as a target for your arguments...

Muslims fighting Muslims who oppress them and just happen to be supported by westerners. quick to make all muslims look like terrorists with this thread to fit your zionist agenda arent we?


ROFLMAO!!!!

i always love it how stupid left wingers love to criticize isreal. firstly a terrorist is someone who attacks civillian targets a freedom fighter will attack military targets. Isreal while fighting for independance warned the british government before it's attack on the king david hotel which at the time was being used as a military headquarters for the british mandate not as a hotel. to educate all you anti isreal people i would like you to look at a few websites...
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict.asp

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway.html

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/index.htm

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Four_Points_Arguments_for_Israel.asp

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/index.html

these websites are very useful click around on some of them to look for more information or you can do your own research by typing in for example. the arab isreali conflict on google.

and for all of u anti isreal people out there i live u with this smiley :upyours:

First of all, I never claimed to be anti-Israel. If you read my post at all, you will note I said that the Israelis were "considered by the British to be terrorists". And the Iraelis (though, at the time there was no Israel) did use terrorist tactics.

Second of all, I support Israel's right to exist and I deplore the Palestinian's use of suicide bombers and skewed rhetoric, but I would never accept the premise that Israelis are without sin.

There is no nation in this whole mess that can legitimately claim to be guiltless and a victim.

Actually, I did post them here when I went back and posted them on the OP. This is a lot like you claiming that there was no criteria for what a terrorist group is, when I stated it was on the links in the OP.
Only the criteria were not what you claimed they were, the data based on them did not say what you claimed they said, and you still have not established the existence of any correlation or any causation between Islam and terrorism.

I looked at your new links, as I said I would.

The BBC article says nothing whatsoever about a correlation between Islam and terrorism. It adds nothing to your argument.

The Wiki article about Muslim Attitudes Toward Terrorism is another article that is tagged with a dislcaimer that it is not reliable. All of the additional sources linked to it are nothing but news articles. Not statiscal reports.

You have failed to establish your original premise, and your argument is meaningless without it.

<snip>
And on the topic of the thread more specifically: radical ideologies breed radical actions.

In the 50's and 60's radical communism was popular. In the 11th century it was radical Christianity. Today its radical Islam.

There is no correlation between Islam proper and terrorism. There is a connection between extremism and terrorism.

NT
Repeated for truth.

This is the crux of the entire matter. Islam does not cause terrorism. Extremism does. Extremism is a very adaptive -ism. There is hardly an ideology it can't attach itself to. Now it is Islam's turn. But just because Islam is currently affected by extremism, it does not follow that Islam caused that to happen.

Attempts to blame the entire religion of Islam for the existence of Muslim terrorists does nothing but fan the flames of extremism. It is, itself, an extremist reaction.

again, if you're honest about your last post, i'm happy to (virtually) shake hands with you... no hard feelings...
do you accept my invitation?

No, because you're a moron.