NationStates Jolt Archive

Iraqi troops are still not trained, and as a result thousands of American and British soldiers have died in Iraq. We immediately need to pull out and replace all coalition troops with UN peacekeepers. The peacekeepers must be controlled by the UN, not by an American or the Pentagon. America and Britain still needs to pay for Iraq's reconstruction and UN efforts, due to their impulsive unilateral action.

Coalition troops have to be removed from Iraq NOW, because thr occupying American troops are unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy. As a result, many Iraqis do not have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity. Because of this, Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents and criminals, as well as by American soldiers.

WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF IRAQ RIGHT AWAY!

replace all coalition troops with UN peacekeepers.

has that ever worked?

America and Britain still needs to pay for Iraq's reconstruction and UN efforts, due to their impulsive unilateral action.

by definition, if more than one party initiated the action it was not unilateral

Coalition troops have to be removed from Iraq NOW, because thr occupying American troops are unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy. As a result, many Iraqis do not have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity.

I would argue that they lack clean water, medical care and electricity becuase Islamic militants are trying to destroy their country - I really don't think capitalism is the root of this problem

Noez! I DECLAR WAR ON TEH US! US R DI! DI US DI!
Ahem.
I suggest you start a riot. Here, I can give you directions to a store where you can find farm impliments and torches.
I imagine a crowd of people waving pitchforks and torches outside the White House will change the governments collective mind.

You know, just this day I was thinking "Most of the people on NS General know about politics and world relations and such, and know that pulling out of Iraq now just isn't feasible."

Clearly, O-Zone, you are not one of those people.

Ozone?

Learn something about International Affairs and the History of the UN when it comes to conflict. Apparently you don't know either.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight, and why would the UN want to clean up our mess?

Iraqi troops are still not trained, and as a result thousands of American and British soldiers have died in Iraq. We immediately need to pull out and replace all coalition troops with UN peacekeepers. The peacekeepers must be controlled by the UN, not by an American or the Pentagon. America and Britain still needs to pay for Iraq's reconstruction and UN efforts, due to their impulsive unilateral action.

Coalition troops have to be removed from Iraq NOW, because thr occupying American troops are unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy. As a result, many Iraqis do not have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity. Because of this, Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents and criminals, as well as by American soldiers.

WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF IRAQ RIGHT AWAY!


Running away allways works great, ask the French . I am sure that the vacuum caused by the US leaving would make the Middle East a very stable place...in fact maybe they will put all the beheadings on pay per View ...and recognize Iran as the new legitimate government of southern Iraq . And the complete loss of credibility as the US a a nation would do woders for every lunitic with a Taliban type fantasy of how the world should be run and what God we should all worship or die .

BTW can you prove even one aspect of your post as fact ?

Take off the tinfoil hat first ...but try...maybe a link or two ...to some legitimate source ?


The UN ? you would force the UN on these poor people ? have they not suffered enough ?

Riiiiiiiiiiiight, and why would the UN want to clean up our mess?

Because that's what the rest of the world does...pick up the shit America leaves behind.

Because that's what the rest of the world does...pick up the shit America leaves behind.

Actually...its usually the other way around.

Noez! I DECLAR WAR ON TEH US! US R DI! DI US DI!
Ahem.
I suggest you start a riot. Here, I can give you directions to a store where you can find farm impliments and torches.
I imagine a crowd of people waving pitchforks and torches outside the White House will change the governments collective mind.

Pitchforks and torches? Is that the best you can do? I was thinking more along the lines of AK-47s. Whatever.

Because that's what the rest of the world does...pick up the shit America leaves behind.

And that argument's supposed to HELP you?

And that argument's supposed to HELP you?

Shh...he's just a little troll with no basis in reality :p

Schrandtopia']has that ever worked?



by definition, if more than one party initiated the action it was not unilateral



I would argue that they lack clean water, medical care and electricity becuase Islamic militants are trying to destroy their country - I really don't think capitalism is the root of this problem

1. Yeah, it's worked lots of times, like in..no, nevermind...oh, like in...no, that just made it worse. Well, right now they are doing a "heckuva job" in Sudan.

2. The Americans and British formed that "coalition" so yes,, that would make it unilateral.

3. Islamic militants are trying to destroy the country because of capitalism. They're angry because capitalism deprives them of clean water, medical care, and electricity.

Actually...its usually the other way around.

No, i don't think so.

1. Yeah, it's worked lots of times, like in..no, nevermind...oh, like in...no, that just made it worse. Well, right now they are doing a "heckuva job" in Sudan.

That better be sarcasm.

2. The Americans and British formed that "coalition" so yes,, that would make it unilateral.

Coalition =/= unilateralism.

3. Islamic militants are trying to destroy the country because of capitalism. They're angry because capitalism deprives them of clean water, medical care, and electricity.

Prove it.

As a Britain, nothing would give me greater pleasure than abandoning you to an indertminate occupation of Iraq.

Actually...its usually the other way around.
In the case of Iraq, the US created this particular dung heap.

No, i don't think so.

So I guess the US going into Kosovo was not cleaning up a mess? I could name others but suffice to say that I"m not going to bother with a troll who knows zip about International Affairs.

In the case of Iraq, the US created this particular dung heap.

I could make the case that the UN left it this way and the US is cleaning it up but I already know that your mind won't grasp the facts so I'll just agree to disagree now with you.

And that argument's supposed to HELP you?

The UN peacekeepers basically help stabilize in unstable regions.

Lets see, Iraq: Crazy insurgents running all over the place
Haditha
Iraqis not having clean water, electricity, or medical care
Haditha
Criminals undermining Iraq's already shitty infrastructure
Oh, did I mention Haditha?

So, basically Iraq qualifies as an unstable region. SEND IN THE UN RIGHT AWAY!

The UN peacekeepers basically help stabilize in unstable regions.

Lets see, Iraq: Crazy insurgents running all over the place
Haditha
Iraqis not having clean water, electricity, or medical care
Haditha
Criminals undermining Iraq's already shitty infrastructure
Oh, did I mention Haditha?

So, basically Iraq qualifies as an unstable region. SEND IN THE UN RIGHT AWAY!

Sudan...unstable region (UN not doing shit about it)
Kosovo...unstable (UN made it worse when they took over)
Africa...a hell of a mess created by... the UN.

Ummm yea....

Iraqi troops are still not trained, and as a result thousands of American and British soldiers have died in Iraq. We immediately need to pull out and replace all coalition troops with UN peacekeepers. The peacekeepers must be controlled by the UN, not by an American or the Pentagon. America and Britain still needs to pay for Iraq's reconstruction and UN efforts, due to their impulsive unilateral action.

Coalition troops have to be removed from Iraq NOW, because thr occupying American troops are unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy. As a result, many Iraqis do not have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity. Because of this, Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents and criminals, as well as by American soldiers.

WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF IRAQ RIGHT AWAY!
No.

* Something like this, once started, has to be followed through to completion or the situation will quickly spiral out of control as soon as you leave.

* What do you mean by "unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy?"

* "Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents" because they "don't have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity?" WTF, over???

That better be sarcasm.



Coalition =/= unilateralism.



Prove it.

1. Aah, sarcasm. No, but seriously, they are doing a good job in Sudan.
2. The coalition is one body-if Group A and Group B merge to form Group C, and Group C does something retarded by itself, its unilateral.
3. you prove your theory first.

No.

* Something like this, once started, has to be followed through to completion or the situation will quickly spiral out of control as soon as you leave.

* What do you mean by "unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy?"

* "Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents" because they "don't have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity?" WTF, over???

INSURGENTS ARE ANGRY AT WHAT THE US IS DOING!

As a Britain, nothing would give me greater pleasure than abandoning you to an indertminate occupation of Iraq.

Shouldn't it be "As a Briton?"

1. Aah, sarcasm. No, but seriously, they are doing a good job in Sudan.

Then I suggest you go back and check your facts because no they aren't.

2. The coalition is one body-if Group A and Group B merge to form Group C, and Group C does something retarded by itself, its unilateral.

Incorrect.

3. you prove your theory first.

Sorry but the burdon of proof is on you.

INSURGENTS ARE ANGRY AT WHAT THE US IS DOING!

And yet they are killing MORE IRAQIS THAN AMERICAN OR COALITION FORCES.

Why don't you go send some letters to the troops asking them their opinion about the war. And if they want to stop fighting. I guarantee you none of them want to fight, but it's their job, to protect the country, to serve the people and it's leaders. It's their career to serve for the military, and more have enlisted in the military after we set out to Iraq. So who are you to say they're no good in the development of Iraq. You suck.

the UN does the best they can, okay? The UN does some pretty good things.

INSURGENTS ARE ANGRY AT WHAT THE US IS DOING!
Oooooooooo!

So I guess the US going into Kosovo was not cleaning up a mess? I could name others but suffice to say that I"m not going to bother with a troll who knows zip about International Affairs.
Ah, Kosovo. Proof that were still cleaning up after Versailles. Now that I come to think of it, isn't the current conflict in Iraq part of the shit-diggery that went down at Versailles? You know, the whole crippling of the Ottoman Turks and whatnot?

the UN does the best they can, okay? The UN does some pretty good things.

Humanitarian yes... bring peace from conflict...no

And yet they are killing MORE IRAQIS THAN AMERICAN OR COALITION FORCES.

YES, THAT'S ALSO WRONG! IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT CASUALTIES, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT! GET THE US OUT AND THE INSURGENCY WILL STOP! IRAQIS WON'T DIE FROM INSURGENT BOMBINGS! WHY ARE WE SCREAMING!

Ah, Kosovo. Proof that were still cleaning up after Versailles. Now that I come to think of it, isn't the current conflict in Iraq part of the shit-diggery that went down at Versailles? You know, the whole crippling of the Ottoman Turks and whatnot?

Why don't you ask the Brits or the French? :D

3. you prove your theory first.
You made the initial claim. You must prove yours first, basic etiquette my dear, dear friend.

Incorrect.




correct and the burden of proof is on you.

YES, THAT'S ALSO WRONG! IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT CASUALTIES, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT! GET THE US OUT AND THE INSURGENCY WILL STOP! IRAQIS WON'T DIE FROM INSURGENT BOMBINGS! WHY ARE WE SCREAMING!
Uh ... perhaps because you started it? Ya think???

No, if we pull out of Iraq, the various insurgency groups will simply start killing each other and the civilians who support one group or another.

YES, THAT'S ALSO WRONG! IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT CASUALTIES, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT!

Good. SOmething I can agree with you on.

GET THE US OUT AND THE INSURGENCY WILL STOP!

If you believe this then you really are retarded. That's ok for God loves us all.

IRAQIS WON'T DIE FROM INSURGENT BOMBINGS!

*points to last statement*

WHY ARE WE SCREAMING!

Because you started it.

correct and the burden of proof is on you.

You have yet to provide proof. It is in you and not on me.

No.

* Something like this, once started, has to be followed through to completion or the situation will quickly spiral out of control as soon as you leave.

* What do you mean by "unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy?"

* "Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents" because they "don't have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity?" WTF, over???

Presumably in light of the vestige of control there is in Iraq?

Or, perhaps, the unrivalled standards of living enjoyed by the general Iraqi?

Iraqi troops are still not trained, and as a result thousands of American and British soldiers have died in Iraq. We immediately need to pull out and replace all coalition troops with UN peacekeepers. The peacekeepers must be controlled by the UN, not by an American or the Pentagon. America and Britain still needs to pay for Iraq's reconstruction and UN efforts, due to their impulsive unilateral action.

Coalition troops have to be removed from Iraq NOW, because thr occupying American troops are unilaterally privatizing the Iraqi economy. As a result, many Iraqis do not have access to clean water, medical care, and electricity. Because of this, Iraqi civilians are being killed by angry insurgents and criminals, as well as by American soldiers.

WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF IRAQ RIGHT AWAY!
I agree, although, I do not know whether the UN could or would want to put in a peacekeeping force.

When the US disbanded the Iraqi army, two major affects were:

1. The Iraqis would be reliant upon US protection until adequate Iraqi replacements could be trained. This has provided the US with a convenient excuse to stay in Iraq much longer than necessary.

2. Disaffected Iraqi soldiers, many of them Sunnis, joined the ranks of the insurgency. How ironic.

Yes, get out now and let the Iraqis battle it out amongst themselves. The majority of Iraqis want the US troops out anyways, so this should be not be considered cutting and running.

YES, THAT'S ALSO WRONG! IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT CASUALTIES, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT! GET THE US OUT AND THE INSURGENCY WILL STOP! IRAQIS WON'T DIE FROM INSURGENT BOMBINGS! WHY ARE WE SCREAMING!
If the US/UK led coalition leaves Iraq now, the odds are the country will fracture into three separate nation-states. The Shi'a areas will be dominated by pro-Iranian types. The Sunni areas will be dominated by Arab nationalists and Islamic fundamentalists. The Kurds don't give a damn because they are capable of running themselves and not going insane. But in the Sunni and Shi'a areas, the entire country will go straight to shit. Ethnic cleansing, religious killings and the rest. The Insurgents will not give up, and they will continue to fight against all the other groups in some sort of gigantic civil war. In the end, the southern part of what is now Iraq will resemble Somalia, and Baghdad a new Mogadishu.

Except that if we do leave, Iraq will fall into Anarchy. You may want that CH but the majority of us do not.

And if they truly do want us to leave, then why hasn't the Iraqi government tell us to leave? We will if they ask us to.

I could make the case that the UN left it this way and the US is cleaning it up but I already know that your mind won't grasp the facts so I'll just agree to disagree now with you.
How trollish of you. :p

Presumably in light of the vestige of control there is in Iraq?

Or, perhaps, the unrivalled standards of living enjoyed by the general Iraqi?
Uh ... perhaps you'd like to explain that a bit further?

If the US/UK led coalition leaves Iraq now, the odds are the country will fracture into three separate nation-states. The Shi'a areas will be dominated by pro-Iranian types. The Sunni areas will be dominated by Arab nationalists and Islamic fundamentalists. The Kurds don't give a damn because they are capable of running themselves and not going insane. But in the Sunni and Shi'a areas, the entire country will go straight to shit. Ethnic cleansing, religious killings and the rest. The Insurgents will not give up, and they will continue to fight against all the other groups in some sort of gigantic civil war. In the end, the southern part of what is now Iraq will resemble Somalia, and Baghdad a new Mogadishu.
Egggg-xactly! Good post.

How trollish of you. :p

Oh come on. I love a sparring match but frankly....i'm trying to be good so that my gf will come and visit me.

Uh ... perhaps you'd like to explain that a bit further?

You merely asserted that Iraq would devolve into chaos if the US withdrew, as opposed to its current calm. And, indeed, that the standards of living of Iraqi's would decrease.

Odd, given the continuing civil conflict I believe.

Actually...its usually the other way around.

Key word being usually.

It would be irresponsible to leave Iraq now. We need to stay to see that the government can stand on its own feet to protect the Iraqi people. We cant just leave now and say "screw the Iraqis", because that wouldnt help anything besides maybe Bush's poll numbers which he isnt concerned about. Although I think it was a stupid war in the first place, leaving now would be risking all out civil war, and the emergence of a Iraqi government that supports Iran or Al Qaeda against the West...

If the US/UK led coalition leaves Iraq now, the odds are the country will fracture into three separate nation-states. The Shi'a areas will be dominated by pro-Iranian types. The Sunni areas will be dominated by Arab nationalists and Islamic fundamentalists. The Kurds don't give a damn because they are capable of running themselves and not going insane. But in the Sunni and Shi'a areas, the entire country will go straight to shit. Ethnic cleansing, religious killings and the rest. The Insurgents will not give up, and they will continue to fight against all the other groups in some sort of gigantic civil war. In the end, the southern part of what is now Iraq will resemble Somalia, and Baghdad a new Mogadishu.
So, what you are saying is that is that Iraq is extremely worse off since the US invaded over 3 years ago? All at a mere cost of $300 Billion, 2600 US troops killed, 40 to 100 thousand dead Iraqis, and an increase of worldwide terrorism, the US has created a chaotic nightmare.

I am impressed. :rolleyes:

YES, THAT'S ALSO WRONG! IRAQI CIVILIANS ARE INNOCENT CASUALTIES, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT! GET THE US OUT AND THE INSURGENCY WILL STOP! IRAQIS WON'T DIE FROM INSURGENT BOMBINGS! WHY ARE WE SCREAMING!
Aah...where's steve carell when ya need him?

No SHIT civilians are innocent casualties!
Get the US out ant the insurgency will stop?!? You FVCKTARD! We (meaning the coalition) and the FLEDGLING Iraqi police/military are the only thing keeping those bastards relatively in line! A large portion (meaning 'most', trollboy) of insurgents are anti-free-religion creedist bastards. They don't give a damn whether we're there or not! Only a few are actually Anti-American
(Sorry guys, no link. My source is my cousin, who served a tour in Iraq)

Aah...where's steve carell when ya need him?

No SHIT civilians are innocent casualties!
Get the US out ant the insurgency will stop?!? You FVCKTARD! We (meaning the coalition) and the FLEDGLING Iraqi police/military are the only thing keeping those bastards relatively in line! A large portion (meaning 'most', trollboy) of insurgents are anti-free-religion creedist bastards. They don't give a damn whether we're there or not! Only a few are actually Anti-American
(Sorry guys, no link. My source is my cousin, who served a tour in Iraq)

Presumably a touring trooper constituting an objective and apolitical source?

Presumably a touring trooper constituting an objective and apolitical source?

Since they are there and have seen the nation....then yea they are credible sources. Ironically the only trouble in Iraq are in the sunni-dominated regions.

Since they are there and have seen the nation....then yea they are credible sources. Ironically the only trouble in Iraq are in the sunni-dominated regions.

However, given the relative ignorance and jingoism of the US forces, are they likely to be objective?

However, given the relative ignorance and jingoism of the US forces, are they likely to be objective?

Yes.

Pitchforks and torches? Is that the best you can do? I was thinking more along the lines of AK-47s. Whatever.
Im a traditionalist, what can I say?
Oh, and the capitol police wont shoot you for a traditional mob, usually.

Except that if we do leave, Iraq will fall into Anarchy. You may want that CH but the majority of us do not.

And if they truly do want us to leave, then why hasn't the Iraqi government tell us to leave? We will if they ask us to.
Most Iraqis believe that the US will not leave if asked. The majority of Iraqis believe that their overall security would increase if the US troops left.

Iraqi Public Wants Timetable for US Withdrawal (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/165.php?nid=&id=&pnt=165&lb=hmpg2)

And if they truly do want us to leave, then why hasn't the Iraqi government tell us to leave? We will if they ask us to.
They have. Just check the AP wire from 6/15/06 under the title "Top Sunni asked Bush for pullout timeline". Just in case you don't feel like researching the just of the story is as follows: Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi asked Bush for a timeline and President Jalal Talibani agreed with that request in a statement.

They have. Just check the AP wire from 6/15/06 under the title "Top Sunni asked Bush for pullout timeline". Just in case you don't feel like researching the just of the story is as follows: Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi asked Bush for a timeline and President Jalal Talibani agreed with that request in a statement.

Its a timeline. If they want us to leave then they should tell us to leave instead of asking for a timeline.

Schrandtopia']I would argue that they lack clean water, medical care and electricity becuase Islamic militants are trying to destroy their country
In that case, you're rather laughably naive. Except it really isn't funny.

Yes.

Well howvery erudite of you.

Generally speaking, "We'd better just stop and scram," is about the least effective solution to, "Oh my gosh we shouldn't have done this and we've made one heck of a mess."

Its a timeline. If they want us to leave then they should tell us to leave instead of asking for a timeline.

They were given a timeline.

When you can defend yourself as a nation from ouside forces and your police force can defend the population from criminals..the US will leave .

Until then will will stand with you at your side and help you achieve that goal .

Its up to the Iraqis now .

Its a timeline. If they want us to leave then they should tell us to leave instead of asking for a timeline.
A timeline for what? When they can get a new Starbucks? Asking for a timeline for withdrawal sort of implies that they would like at least some sort of redeployment. I happen to agree with the thought that we can't just redeploy all our troops. But if the Iraqi people have some kind of hope that they won't be occupied for eternity we might be viewed in a less dim light.

Bump... (bored)