NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060624/ap_on_re_eu/europe_s_silent_muslims

Muslims address silence on Europe attacks

Why have so few of them publicly condemned the train and bus bombings in Madrid and London? Why have so few spoken out against the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, killed because his work was considered an insult to Islam?...

...Dutch Muslim rapper Yassine SB wrote a song about his anger over Van Gogh's murder but scrapped plans to perform it out of fear of being ostracized by the Islamic community. He also turned down requests by a popular Amsterdam radio station to sing a song against terrorism.

"If you sing that, it's like you choose the Dutch, not Muslims," said Yassine SB..."People will say 'you are a traitor,'" said the 20-year-old musician...

contrasted against;

...Why, many Muslims ask, should they have to speak out against, or apologize for, actions of radicals who do not represent them — people they do not even regard as true Muslims?

Many find the very idea of being asked or expected to denounce such acts "extremely offensive and insulting," said Khurshid Drabu, a senior member of the Muslim Council of Britain."

So which is it - are they afraid of going against the Muslims or do they not consider the terrorists to be real Muslims? Can't have it both ways. If the terrorists are not considered 'real' Muslims then there is no risk of being anti-Muslim by denouncing them. If the terrorists are real Muslims, then why would anyone care if they were ostracised by the Islamic community?

I think it's "a little from column A, and a little from column B".

I think it looks like they missed living in their islamic countries....

I think it looks like they missed living in their islamic countries....
...and we should all do them a favour and send tham back, right? :rolleyes:

...and we should all do them a favour and send tham back, right? :rolleyes:
No wait, they might not agree that being deported is a good thing...
*Shrugs* Never mind. At least it will make Ny Nordland happy.

I think it's "a little from column A, and a little from column B".

Don't forget column C, where you're considered racist for even bringing it up.

The article was very good at listing all the reasons they give for not having a unified public outcry over the atrocities of the extremists. I wonder if they are going to do an article listing all the reasons there was a unified public outcry over the cartoons.:eek:

The article was very good at listing all the reasons they give for not having a unified public outcry over the atrocities of the extremists. I wonder if they are going to do an article listing all the reasons there was a unified public outcry over the cartoons.:eek:

Hey, we all know that killing infidels is OK per the Koran. And drawing pics of the Prophet is NOT OK per the Koran.

Seems simple to me.

Somehow, most Jews and Christians got over the "stoning" of people at the city gates for minor infractions, but a certain percentage of Muslims seem to love finding the nasty bits of the Koran and implementing them, and the majority of those who remain seem either indifferent or secretly love it.

And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:
"People and politicians say where are the Muslim people, why aren't they on the streets defending themselves? They say we should go into the streets and condemn what happened so they see us as good Muslims," said Karima Ramani, a 20-year-old Dutch born to an Algerian father and Moroccan mother. "I don't feel it's my duty. I'm not responsible for the death of Van Gogh."
That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.

The article was very good at listing all the reasons they give for not having a unified public outcry over the atrocities of the extremists. I wonder if they are going to do an article listing all the reasons there was a unified public outcry over the cartoons.:eek:

Interesting point - though they weren't all unified - most demostrated peacefully - others burnt and plundered.

And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:

That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.

They werent responsible for 9/11 too but it was still celebrated in many islamic countries....

And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:

(snippity quote)

That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.

You didn't hear? Group responsibility works when the muslims are doing it. However, I have yet to see Republicans crying out against, say, Fred Phelps or the murderers of gay people...

Most people did suport 9/11 in Afghanistan but thats because th Taliban were in charge. Can't think of ny other muslim countries celbrated this. Please enlighten us

They werent responsible for 9/11 too but it was still celebrated in many islamic countries....

Oh, you mean that - at that time - years old footage of palestinians celebrating SOMETHING ELSE?

Come on, you really can't do better than this? You're boring me!

And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:

That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.


Evil can triumph because good people do nothing?

And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:

That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.

If it were some nutcase then she would have no problem taking issue against him abusing her religion without regard or worry about being ostracised by same said religion. If she is really a Muslim then it would be in her interest to defend her religion - as many did when they felt the Danish cartoons were offensive. Killing a person has to be at least as offensive as a drawing.

You didn't hear? Group responsibility works when the muslims are doing it. However, I have yet to see Republicans crying out against, say, Fred Phelps or the murderers of gay people...

Did those people say they are doing it in the name of Republicanism? I missed that part.

Evil can triumph because good people do nothing?

So I take it you're taking responsibility for what happened in Somalia? You "did nothing"...

They werent responsible for 9/11 too but it was still celebrated in many islamic countries....
a) That has nothing to do with guilt. If I shot George Bush, many people around the world would celebrate, yet they should not be punished for a crime that I might have committed.
b) I doubt the celebrations involved majorities. You know as well as I do how a few well-placed TV cameras can convey a message. And besides, the only place I remember where the celebrations were not organised from Up Above was Palestine. And that's a specific case, the people there are pretty desensitised towards terrorism of any kind.
c) So this girl should appologise for randoms half-way across the world celebrating something?

And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:

That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.

She isn't responsible for 9/11, Madrid, or London either. However, people who claim to be of the same religion she is, and claim they committed those atrocities in the name of their God were responsible. Isn't that enough reason for a public outcry by those who detest what the radicals have done and are doing? They sure had a public outcry over a few cartoons. Which is worse, the acts of the terrorists or the acts of some cartoonists?

Oh, you mean that - at that time - years old footage of palestinians celebrating SOMETHING ELSE?

Come on, you really can't do better than this? You're boring me!

Source please?

To OP: Here in Australia, we have Muslim leaders speaking out against religious fundies, but you can't really blame Muslims for not speaking out. Look what happened over the bloody cartoons, people were killed. It's all very well to say that they won't lose face with the community, but I imagine the reaction from the fundies would not be pretty.

Did those people say they are doing it in the name of Republicanism? I missed that part.

Well, Phelps claims it's in the name of God. You're a Christian, I take it? I'm not.

If it were some nutcase then she would have no problem taking issue against him abusing her religion without regard or worry about being ostracised by same said religion.
No, she refuses to be thrown into the same pot with the nutcase.

You know, when people say "this isn't Islam", they usually are serious, even if our cynical minds don't always comprehend it. They reckon that if they start appologising, they acknowledge that the nutcase's crime had indeed to do with Islam.

Most people did suport 9/11 in Afghanistan but thats because th Taliban were in charge. Can't think of ny other muslim countries celbrated this. Please enlighten us

I saw lots of news footage of Palistinians out dancing in the streets.

Which is worse, the acts of the terrorists or the acts of some cartoonists?
Does it matter if there is absolutely no connection between the two?

What you're saying is (and I'm presuming you're a veteran for my argument here) that because a veteran lost it and killed his family and them himself, all veterans need to appologise or somehow make public statements about how horrible they find this.

And then, when someone declares all veterans to be worthless old men and otherwise insults them, you're supposed to sit back and relax.

Evil can triumph because good people do nothing?

Amen. Very well said, and welcome to the insanity of NS General Forum.

No, she refuses to be thrown into the same pot with the nutcase.

You know, when people say "this isn't Islam", they usually are serious, even if our cynical minds don't always comprehend it. They reckon that if they start appologising, they acknowledge that the nutcase's crime had indeed to do with Islam.

But see, it DOES have to do with islam.

So which is it - are they afraid of going against the Muslims or do they not consider the terrorists to be real Muslims? Can't have it both ways. If the terrorists are not considered 'real' Muslims then there is no risk of being anti-Muslim by denouncing them. If the terrorists are real Muslims, then why would anyone care if they were ostracised by the Islamic community?
I suppose it's like asking jews to denounce every act of aggression by Israel. Pretty fucking rude. It's got nothing to do with them. Unless you seriously expect muslims in Malaysia to request forgiveness for the actions of some council estate kid from Yorkshire.

Source please?

To OP: Here in Australia, we have Muslim leaders speaking out against religious fundies, but you can't really blame Muslims for not speaking out. Look what happened over the bloody cartoons, people were killed. It's all very well to say that they won't lose face with the community, but I imagine the reaction from the fundies would not be pretty.

So a majority of the Muslims should live in fear of the few?

But see, it DOES have to do with islam.
I'm going to give you a link now, and I will ask you to read the entire thing. If you really are interested in gaining any sort of understanding of the whole situation ("understanding" not implying value judgements), you will do so. And afterwards, you come back and tell me that Islamism and Islam are the same thing.
Here is the link: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314

The article was very good at listing all the reasons they give for not having a unified public outcry over the atrocities of the extremists. I wonder if they are going to do an article listing all the reasons there was a unified public outcry over the cartoons.:eek:

Where was the unified public outcry in the US (indeed ANY public outcry in the US) against the insanity and bigotry of the US war on Iraq?

Where is the unified public outcry – or indeed any public outcry in the US- against the obscenity of US corporations being paid billions for the 'reconstruction' of an Iraq which still does not have regular supplies of electricity or clean water in its capital city?

Where is the unified public outcry against the obscenity of that senile old clown Rumsfeld describing the suicide of three desperate-and-yet-to-be-proven-guilty-of-anything-execpt-having-beards-and-brown-skin-and worshipping-the-same-god-Christians-do-in-a-funny-way-men illegally detained in Guantanamo Bay for several years as “an act of war against [the US]”? Where is the unified public outcry for Rumsfeld to retaliate in kind?


How anyone who did or will vote republican can sleep at night is beyond me ......

Why have so few of them publicly condemned the train and bus bombings in Madrid and London? Why have so few spoken out against the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, killed because his work was considered an insult to Islam?...


Because they were delighted that finally someone kicked America in the balls on 9/11 for what they've been doing to the Arabs. Saddam Hussein is an American puppet after all. The Israelis are funded by the Americans. America has been fucking with the Arabs and Islam for quite some time.

When America invaded Islamic countries their cronies came along for the ride. Then there were retaliations, that's the way war goes. Now that Spain is out of Iraq Spain has nothing to fear from Islamic bombers, not so London. That was the message.

Also the filmmaker was making a blasphemous film about Islam so they're glad he's dead too.

How could this be difficult to understand?

Does it matter if there is absolutely no connection between the two?

But there is a connection between the two. The demonstrations over the cartoons were because the cartoons supposedly denigrated Mohamed and the Muslim religion. So, in defense of their religion they demonstrated.

The acts of the terrorists who commit these atrocities in the name of their religion are denigrating the religion the moderates claim to be a religion of peace. The radicals are doing far more harm to the religion than the cartoons could ever do; yet, the majority remains silent? Why?

Oh, you mean that - at that time - years old footage of palestinians celebrating SOMETHING ELSE?

Come on, you really can't do better than this? You're boring me!

Ignorance is a bliss for you, eh? You get bored with truths?

Wiki:


The September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack occasioned apparent spontaneous outbreaks of public celebration in a number of Arab Muslim communities. Press and television coverage of these celebrations were met with shock and outrage in the United States. However, later media analysis cast doubt on the motivations and extent of the celebrations, and many Muslim groups moved to distance themselves from such behavior.

There were reports of celebrations on the West Bank, and at the time there was an urban legend that the footage of some Palestinians celebrating the attacks was faked, and that it was actually footage from the invasion of Kuwait. This was proven false shortly afterwards [1], and the media widely circulated that fact.



Moderate Palestinians and the Palestinian leadership quickly distanced themselves from any celebrations. The Palestinian Authority recognized the matter as a public-relations nightmare and moved quickly to censor further reports of public celebrations. Ahmed Abdel Rahman, Arafat's Cabinet secretary, said the Palestinian Authority could not "guarantee the life" of an Associated Press cameraman if footage he filmed of post-9/11 celebrations was broadcast. Rahman's statement prompted a formal protest from the AP bureau chief, Dan Perry. [5] A few days after the September 11th attacks, Yasser Arafat symbolically donated blood for victims of the attacks.


Of course the article also mentions about the suspiciouns that some of these celebrations were staged...


London to host Islamic 'celebration' of Sept 11
By Thair Shaikh
(Filed: 08/09/2002)

Extremist muslim clerics will meet in London on September 11 to celebrate the anniversary of al-Qaeda's attacks on America and to launch an organisation for Islamic militants.

The conference, which will be attended by the most radical mullahs in Britain, will argue that the atrocities were justified because Muslims must defend themselves against armed aggression.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/09/08/nextre08.xml

And afterwards, you come back and tell me that Islamism and Islam are the same thing.


That might be a bit like saying Christianity and American Fundamentalism are the same thing .....

If George Bush speaks to a god, it sure as hell isn't the christian one .... maybe he's still on speaking terms with all those spirits that f*cked up his brain when he was a drunk coke addict .....

And if there is an intelligent designer, s/he sure as hell f*cked up in designing 50% of the American voters who vote Republican ..... let alone in designing poppa Bush and forgetting to remind him that he could pull out at the last moment....

Sorry, I am still trying to get past "Dutch Muslim rapper "

Too funny

The radicals are doing far more harm to the religion than the cartoons could ever do; yet, the majority remains silent? Why?
Did you put me on 'ignore' or something?

One thing obviously had to do with the religion, the other does not. As far as regular Islamic theology is concerned, what the terrorists have done is not justifiable. As far as Muslims are concerned, there is no connection between them and their faith, and what these nutcases are doing.

You too should read the link I posted on the last page to the Islamism Study Thread.

So which is it - are they afraid of going against the Muslims or do they not consider the terrorists to be real Muslims? Can't have it both ways. If the terrorists are not considered 'real' Muslims then there is no risk of being anti-Muslim by denouncing them. If the terrorists are real Muslims, then why would anyone care if they were ostracised by the Islamic community?Three cheers for schizophrenia.

I happen to be good friends with a 2nd generation Muslim anarchist (yes, practicing Muslim, but terribly unorthodox). His theory is that people OD on western culture. It's not that they don't need it or don't want it, but pretty much everything in modern European societies, flies in the face of what Muslims believe in.

On one hand, it's a total assault on everything they've ever held to be true, and on the other, it's everything they need to live in peace. Lately, he's been comparing it to the new evangelical right in the US, that's pretty much decraled war on science, secular democracy, personal freedom & the doctrine of pedagogy over punishment.

I think he's right. We had the enlightenment here in Europe. A period that lead to the re-examining of the archaeic & distorted morality taught by scripture, and lead to us building our societies around humanistic ideals. Unlike orthodox Muslims, we teach our children to base their morals values on what is good for us humans. They teach their children that what is good for us humans, is actually bad for us most of the time. Things like tolerance, team work, love & so on, aren't important to the religious morality. Strict adherence is.

The clash is self-explanatory, I think. Either orthodox Muslims have been morally corrupt all their lives, and passed it on to their children, or the humanist morality is wrong & we're morally corrupt.

Unfortunately, we humans generally have a hard time admitting our mistakes, and this isn't just a mistake. If you know any orthodox Muslims (I do), you'll undoubtedly have heard that we're so corrupt that even our religion [Christianity] is lost to us.
The conflict is so fundamental, that many of them feel our ways of life simply cannot coexist. Sure, our lovely humanism may be what they came for, but how could they have known it would also challenge everything they believe themselves to be. And how can one human being possibly be so wrong - especially when that human being is oneself.

Fortunately, most cope with it in one way or another, but the fundamental "Oh shit, every thought I've ever had has been complete bullshit!" conflict, is rarely resolved. Deliberately seeking to challenge that is highly offensive to most Muslims, because people might as well be calling them insane - and just like every other hardworking, honest person, who tries his or her best to get along in the world, most of them don't consider themselves very insane at all.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Muslims at all. I know quite a few, in several different countries, and I even get along with some of them (despite looking like something most Muslims feel pretty sure shouldn't be allowed). And I don't know how to solve the problem. My best idea is to let it solve itself, but given the developments since the 1960s, I'm pretty sure it won't work.

The friend I mentioned, jokes that religion should be outlawed for children below the age of consent. At least, I think he's joking.. Regardles, it's not an idea I agree with, because I think it's both abusive, and invasion of privacy & borderline thought-policing.

But how the fuck can a society deal with it?

Unlike the people who won't admit to being neo-Nazis, I don't consider this a major problem for society, but I do think it's highly detrimental to the lives & prosperity of a lot of people. The conflicting values is super-fertilizer for racism & general prejudice, on both sides. It cause all sorts of shit, from kids terrorising neighbourhoods, to people who get totally isolated from the society they live in & become utterly unable to participate in it, to idiots throwing stones at gay parades & girls getting kicked out of their homes, abused by their husbands, forced to marry & occationally killed.

Thus, I think it needs to be dealt with. And I hate the fact that I don't know how.

Because they were delighted that finally someone kicked America in the balls on 9/11 for what they've been doing to the Arabs. Saddam Hussein is an American puppet after all. The Israelis are funded by the Americans. America has been fucking with the Arabs and Islam for quite some time.

When America invaded Islamic countries their cronies came along for the ride. Then there were retaliations, that's the way war goes. Now that Spain is out of Iraq Spain has nothing to fear from Islamic bombers, not so London. That was the message.

Also the filmmaker was making a blasphemous film about Islam so they're glad he's dead too.

How could this be difficult to understand?

So we can blame all americans for the actions of some americans (politicians) but we cant blame all muslims for the actions of some muslims (terrorists)...

So we can blame all americans for the actions of some americans (politicians) but we cant blame all muslims for the actions of some muslims (terrorists)...

Well who voted for Bin Laden?

You didn't hear? Group responsibility works when the muslims are doing it. However, I have yet to see Republicans crying out against, say, Fred Phelps or the murderers of gay people...

Actually, if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hanity, Laura Ingram, the Republicans in Congress, etc. They have all said that what Phelps is doing is wrong, and that regardless of your opinions over Gay-MArriage, it is NOT okay to murder people. Congress even passed a bill prevent Phelps from going within 200 feet or so of a funeral. Gotta try harder than that.

Sorry, I am still trying to get past "Dutch Muslim rapper "

Too funny
Why?

Rap is something usually associated with urban youth, right? Particularly in poor sort of areas. Well, surprisingly enough, there are muslim kids in poor urban areas in Europe. And surprisingly enough, they start rapping.

And some of them are pretty good. Like this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erci_E) here. Although strictly speaking, he might not be that poor.

Well who voted for Bin Laden?

Who voted for Donald Rumslfeld and the other warmongers that Bush appointed?

Where was the unified public outcry in the US (indeed ANY public outcry in the US) against the insanity and bigotry of the US war on Iraq?


There is none because most Americans, including many Democrats in Congress, supported and still support the war. Besides, you are trying to mix apples......
and are straying far from the OP.

Did you put me on 'ignore' or something?

One thing obviously had to do with the religion, the other does not. As far as regular Islamic theology is concerned, what the terrorists have done is not justifiable. As far as Muslims are concerned, there is no connection between them and their faith, and what these nutcases are doing.

You too should read the link I posted on the last page to the Islamism Study Thread.

Oh Really? I read many quotes from Koran in several threads about how it is ok to kill infidels....

Personally, if I was Muslim. I wouldn't apologize about radical Islamists, for it does not reflect the true nature of the Islamic faith. Theres a difference between peaceful, law-abiding Muslims citizens and the extreme Islamic fundies.

You usually don't see a peaceful, law-abiding Christian apologizing for all the crap that Christianity has done in the past, so Muslims are no different. Its not their fault to begin with.

She isn't responsible for 9/11, Madrid, or London either. However, people who claim to be of the same religion she is, and claim they committed those atrocities in the name of their God were responsible. Isn't that enough reason for a public outcry by those who detest what the radicals have done and are doing? They sure had a public outcry over a few cartoons. Which is worse, the acts of the terrorists or the acts of some cartoonists?

Yes (http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=1067), why (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1573205/posts) aren't (http://www.cair-net.org/crisiscenter/html/cair_ad.html) any (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/icna.htm) Muslims (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/abdulhak.htm) condemning (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml) these (http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335) terrorist (http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/rejectjihad.html) attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm) ? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm) They (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm) really (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html) should (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/17/article3.shtml) . (http://www.muhajabah.com/9-11_poem.htm)

Well who voted for Bin Laden?
That's basically the thing, Islamic terrorists are nutcases who merely claim to speak for the masses, whereas Western politicians actually do, and there are well-documented electoral processes which render all citizens accountable.

Put plainly, only the citizens of democracies are responsible for the actions of those who represent them.

Yes (http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=1067), why (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1573205/posts) aren't (http://www.cair-net.org/crisiscenter/html/cair_ad.html) any (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/icna.htm) Muslims (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/abdulhak.htm) condemning (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml) these (http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335) terrorist (http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/rejectjihad.html) attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm) ? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm) They (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm) really (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html) should (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/17/article3.shtml) . (http://www.muhajabah.com/9-11_poem.htm)

Well done Sir.

Well who voted for Bin Laden?

Isnt the voting attendance below 50% in USA in most elections?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060624/ap_on_re_eu/europe_s_silent_muslims

Muslims address silence on Europe attacks

Why have so few of them publicly condemned the train and bus bombings in Madrid and London? Why have so few spoken out against the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, killed because his work was considered an insult to Islam?...

...Dutch Muslim rapper Yassine SB wrote a song about his anger over Van Gogh's murder but scrapped plans to perform it out of fear of being ostracized by the Islamic community. He also turned down requests by a popular Amsterdam radio station to sing a song against terrorism.

"If you sing that, it's like you choose the Dutch, not Muslims," said Yassine SB..."People will say 'you are a traitor,'" said the 20-year-old musician...

contrasted against;

...Why, many Muslims ask, should they have to speak out against, or apologize for, actions of radicals who do not represent them — people they do not even regard as true Muslims?

Many find the very idea of being asked or expected to denounce such acts "extremely offensive and insulting," said Khurshid Drabu, a senior member of the Muslim Council of Britain."

So which is it - are they afraid of going against the Muslims or do they not consider the terrorists to be real Muslims? Can't have it both ways. If the terrorists are not considered 'real' Muslims then there is no risk of being anti-Muslim by denouncing them. If the terrorists are real Muslims, then why would anyone care if they were ostracised by the Islamic community?
Looks like you've got different people talking there. Muslims are individuals with different opinions too.

Well done Sir.

:)

Does it matter if there is absolutely no connection between the two?

What you're saying is (and I'm presuming you're a veteran for my argument here) that because a veteran lost it and killed his family and them himself, all veterans need to appologise or somehow make public statements about how horrible they find this.

And then, when someone declares all veterans to be worthless old men and otherwise insults them, you're supposed to sit back and relax.

No - poor example. No veteran has ever done that. However if there were a rash of veterans doing that and saying they were doing it for the glory of veterans - I would ABSOLUTELY expect veteran associations to step up and not remain silent.

And there absolutely IS a connection between the Islamic communities response to the cartoons and their silence to terrorism.

Well who voted for Bin Laden?

Look up 'disenfranchised' in any dictionary: wonder why the poor, oppressed and excluded might not be able to vote for anyone who might make a difference?

even when they do – no-one wants let them play. The Palestinians voted - in a well regarded election process - for a government of their choice. Next step? The west refuses to talk to the validly elected government.

Isnt the voting attendance below 50% in USA in most elections?

If it was less than 20% it would be still rather more than voted for Bin Laden to go off on his Jihad. Not that bothers you, as its just an excuse for you to say "darkies go home" so the more he does it, the happier you'll be.

That's basically the thing, Islamic terrorists are nutcases who merely claim to speak for the masses, whereas Western politicians actually do, and there are well-documented electoral processes which render all citizens accountable.

Put plainly, only the citizens of democracies are responsible for the actions of those who represent them.

Iranians elected Ahmenidajad who wants to wipe Israel off the map, no? And there is no revolution going on in Arabia to overthrow their theocratic system which breeds terrorists like bin Laden....

edit: Palestinians voted for the terrorist organisation Hamas as well...

I'm going to give you a link now, and I will ask you to read the entire thing. If you really are interested in gaining any sort of understanding of the whole situation ("understanding" not implying value judgements), you will do so. And afterwards, you come back and tell me that Islamism and Islam are the same thing.
Here is the link: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314

None of that matters. Do they believe that the koran is allah's word? Then every line, from "love thy neighbour" to "kill the infidels" is relevant. That's their religion. I'm sorry, but only the most liberal of muslims can escape that one.

I suppose it's like asking jews to denounce every act of aggression by Israel. Pretty fucking rude. It's got nothing to do with them. Unless you seriously expect muslims in Malaysia to request forgiveness for the actions of some council estate kid from Yorkshire.

I missed the part where Isralis blew up a Blai resort, bombed a plane, murdered an author, blew up an embassy, etc.

No - poor example. No veteran has ever done that. However if there were a rash of veterans doing that and saying they were doing it for the glory of veterans - I would ABSOLUTELY expect veteran associations to step up and not remain silent.


Three wives in six weeks....
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0805/p03s01-usmi.html

If it was less than 20% it would be still rather more than voted for Bin Laden to go off on his Jihad. Not that bothers you, as its just an excuse for you to say "darkies go home" so the more he does it, the happier you'll be.

Straw Men...You assume those attacks make me happy (:rolleyes: ) and argue based on that idiotic misrepresentation....

I missed the part where Isralis blew up a Blai resort, bombed a plane, murdered an author, blew up an embassy, etc.

Occupied land not theirs, killed thousands, ethnically cleansed three quarters of a million....

None of that matters. Do they believe that the koran is allah's word? Then every line, from "love thy neighbour" to "kill the infidels" is relevant. That's their religion. I'm sorry, but only the most liberal of muslims can escape that one.

The Koran is Half of the Sacred Sctriptures of Islam, the other half are the collected sayimgs of Mohammed(SP?), which put them in context. In there, he states that the "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) are to be treated with respect.

We should just turn all muslims into soylent green. Soylent green is the answer to everything! Everything!!! :eek:

The Koran is Half of the Sacred Sctriptures of Islam, the other half are the collected sayimgs of Mohammed(SP?), which put them in context. In there, he states that the "People of the Book" (Christians and Jews) are to be treated with respect.

The suras? They can be even worse.

I missed the part where Isralis blew up a Blai resort, bombed a plane, murdered an author, blew up an embassy, etc.
What the hell are you talking about? You just don't understand the analogy.

I am not talking about directly equivalent actions, I am talking about the fact that it is no more fair to blame one group for the actions of a minority, than it is to blame another.

But yes, there are numerous acts which jews all over the world would have to condemn on a regular basis, were your principle applied universally. Blowing up a whole traffic junction to kill one guy, blowing up an apartment building to kill another, bulldozing people's homes, building a wall between people's houses and their farmland, all manner of unpleasantries like that.

One does not ask all jews to condemn those acts, so one cannot ask all muslims to condemn the acts of some people whose language they may not even speak, who only share a religion and probably not even denomination in common.

Dutch Muslim rapper

Yup, still cracks me up

There is none because most Americans, including many Democrats in Congress, supported and still support the war. Besides, you are trying to mix apples......
and are straying far from the OP.

Au contraire. As far as I can tell, the OP asked " Why have so few of them publicly condemned ... ? Why have so few spoken out against ...?" It seems the OP was questioning the absence of 'unified public outcry' as it came to be called ..... and I suggest that illumination might be achieved by considering the actions of the US (a society sufficiently understandable (although tragically dolt-ridden) to allow analysis) rather than by attempting to ascribe motive and reasoning to a society we (unless part of it) don't understand, but hey .... what doI care ...

Why no "Unified public outcry" was the question. There are many answers: examine the reasons - they are varied and complex.


Ask follow-up questions such as: Why did "most Americans, including many Democrats in Congress, support[ed] and still support the war"? Because they were kept in ignorance (and were comfortable being ignorant) and lied to. Condsider what other populaces might be kept ignorant and be lied to .......

Because they were delighted that finally someone kicked America in the balls on 9/11 for what they've been doing to the Arabs. Saddam Hussein is an American puppet after all. The Israelis are funded by the Americans. America has been fucking with the Arabs and Islam for quite some time.
The Palestinians, Egyptians and several others also receive funding from America. Should they also be attacked? Your argument is shallow and uninformed.

When America invaded Islamic countries their cronies came along for the ride. Then there were retaliations, that's the way war goes. Now that Spain is out of Iraq Spain has nothing to fear from Islamic bombers, not so London. That was the message.
Another shallow argument - If the Muslims did not bomb America and our allies they would have nothing to fear from America. There you go - battle of the shallow arguments.

Also the filmmaker was making a blasphemous film about Islam so they're glad he's dead too. So you feel that any murder of someone who commits blasphemy of any religion is justified? You are very sick.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060624/ap_on_re_eu/europe_s_silent_muslims

Muslims address silence on Europe attacks

Why have so few of them publicly condemned the train and bus bombings in Madrid and London? Why have so few spoken out against the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, killed because his work was considered an insult to Islam?...



contrasted against;



So which is it - are they afraid of going against the Muslims or do they not consider the terrorists to be real Muslims? Can't have it both ways. If the terrorists are not considered 'real' Muslims then there is no risk of being anti-Muslim by denouncing them. If the terrorists are real Muslims, then why would anyone care if they were ostracised by the Islamic community?

They can have it both ways. Muslims are not a "hive-mind". It's a religion, made up of individuals.

WTF, nobody has replied to posts by me, Similization or RLI.

WTF, nobody has replied to posts by me, Similization or RLI.

Oh - I didn't realise that was compulsory. Twat.

The suras? They can be even worse.

No, the Hadith, which are what Mohammed said, did, and approved in others.

Yes (http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=1067), why (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1573205/posts) aren't (http://www.cair-net.org/crisiscenter/html/cair_ad.html) any (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/icna.htm) Muslims (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/abdulhak.htm) condemning (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml) these (http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335) terrorist (http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/rejectjihad.html) attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm) ? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm) They (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm) really (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html) should (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/17/article3.shtml) . (http://www.muhajabah.com/9-11_poem.htm)


These are reactions of few individuals. I see no public outcry...

Who voted for Donald Rumslfeld and the other warmongers that Bush appointed?

The people of the United States elected Bush. The Senate, elected by the people of the United States, confirmed all of the President's appointments.

Isnt the voting attendance below 50% in USA in most elections?

Unfortunatly, yes. :(

poll of Egyptians taken by Al-Ahram Weekly:


QUESTION 1: How would you describe your feelings when you saw the destruction of New York's twin towers?

They deserved it: 52%
Sympathy for the victims: 35%
Afraid of the future: 24%
Admiration for the culprits: 28%
Anger at the culprits: 10%

QUESTION 2: Who do you think is responsible for the attacks?

Israeli intelligence/Mossad: 39%
We'll never know: 25%
Al-Qa'eda or other Islamic militants: 19%
Others: 19%

QUESTION 3: How do you view the American war on terror?

A means of asserting the US's global dominance: 68%
A war against Arabs and Muslims: 51%
A justified response to the attacks: 15%

QUESTION 4: How do you view the results of the American war on terror?

Descent into chaos and increasing violence: 93%
The end of democracy and human rights: 48%
Success in eradicating terrorism and a more peaceful world: 1%

QUESTION 5: How do you view the future of radical Islamists?

Their popularity will increase: 51%
They are becoming weak and isolated: 31%
11 September was their death blow: 11%

QUESTION 6: What do you feel should have been Arab and Islamic governments' position on the US war on terror?

Oppose: 63%
Support: 10%
Remain neutral: 22%


http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4144&only

Where was the unified public outcry in the US (indeed ANY public outcry in the US) against the insanity and bigotry of the US war on Iraq?
I do not engage people who are incapable of differentiating between acts of war and terrorism. Your opinion is so shallow and uninformed that it is hardly woth the time to post this response. In addition, you may have missed the fact that there are plenty of people who objected to US involvement in Afganistan and Iraq in the US as well as Europe. They were not silent. If you payed any attention at all you would have noticed.


Where is the unified public outcry – or indeed any public outcry in the US- against the obscenity of US corporations being paid billions for the 'reconstruction' of an Iraq which still does not have regular supplies of electricity or clean water in its capital city?
Probably with the same outcry of the people against the terrorists who continually blow up the work that these companies are being paid to complete and murder the people they pay do do it.

Where is the unified public outcry against the obscenity of that senile old clown Rumsfeld describing the suicide of three desperate-and-yet-to-be-proven-guilty-of-anything-execpt-having-beards-and-brown-skin-and worshipping-the-same-god-Christians-do-in-a-funny-way-men illegally detained in Guantanamo Bay for several years as “an act of war against [the US]”? Where is the unified public outcry for Rumsfeld to retaliate in kind?
Once again - I cannot engage anyone who cannot differentiate between law enforcement and war. The US has spent plenty of resources protecting people of all races and religions - including Muslims and Arabs. Your argunemt is null and void. You would do well to ponder the outspoken bigotry of Muslims for a while. It would be a much easier case to make.


How anyone who did or will vote republican can sleep at night is beyond me ......
Usually on my right side, with a cup of water on the nightstand.

No, the Hadith, which are what Mohammed said, did, and approved in others.

Boy, mohammed. The guy who married and raped a nine year old. What a rolemodel.

Personally, if I was Muslim. I wouldn't apologize about radical Islamists, for it does not reflect the true nature of the Islamic faith. Theres a difference between peaceful, law-abiding Muslims citizens and the extreme Islamic fundies.

You usually don't see a peaceful, law-abiding Christian apologizing for all the crap that Christianity has done in the past, so Muslims are no different. Its not their fault to begin with.


Yes, you do. Christians apologize far too often for things they had little to do with. The holocaust being one example - they even apologizing for not winning the war fast enough!

Were there an organization claiming to be Christian that was targeting and murdering civilians around the world for 'the glory of God' you can bet that western nations would target that group with zeal. (This is the part where shallow minded people try to draw some sort of moral equivalence between war and terrorism.)

These are reactions of few individuals. I see no public outcry...

Did you read even one of the links? If so I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension.

The very first link was to the website of the Muslim Council of Britain, the organisation which represents British Muslims.

One link had a condemnation of terrorism from Canadian Muslim organisations.

Another link showed the most senior Islamic leader in Syria and the ayatollah of Iran condemning the 9/11 attacks.

Still other links offered condemnations from five major US Muslim organisations, as well as several respected Islamic scholars.

I suspect you're trolling because nobody could be this stupid.

Unfortunatly, yes. :(

It is why I suggest every time election time comes around that they should make voting mandatory, like in Asutralia

The public outcry against the war, was resounding. Millions of people in the 'coalition' countries were demonstrating against it. Only, no one important listened.

Look up 'disenfranchised' in any dictionary: wonder why the poor, oppressed and excluded might not be able to vote for anyone who might make a difference?

even when they do – no-one wants let them play. The Palestinians voted - in a well regarded election process - for a government of their choice. Next step? The west refuses to talk to the validly elected government.


How ironic - concenquences. The west didn't say that they cannot have that government - they simply said that that is not the type of government we wish to have relations with. There is nothing wrong with that. The Palestinians made their choice - now they have to live with the concenquences.

If it was less than 20% it would be still rather more than voted for Bin Laden to go off on his Jihad. Not that bothers you, as its just an excuse for you to say "darkies go home" so the more he does it, the happier you'll be.
Name calling is such a rational way to make your point. It really highlights yhour cerebral capabilities.

Three wives in six weeks....
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0805/p03s01-usmi.html


No, those were murders - which are bwing investigated. Not a single one of them said they were doing it to promote the cause of veterans everywhere.

You really have a weak argument. Pathetic in fact.

Probably with the same outcry of the people against the terrorists who continually blow up the work that these companies are being paid to complete and murder the people they pay do do it.


If I remeber correctly, there is a water station in Baghdad that has been blown up at least five-six times, because the companies will not give up on it.

Occupied land not theirs, killed thousands, ethnically cleansed three quarters of a million....

Not comparable, unfactual and irrelevant. You really have no concept of the difference between war,m terrorism or even law enforcement. How sad. Regardless, Isralis have not attacked the US - why would US jews need to apologize for them? Isralis have not murdered any authors in Europe - why would European Jews have to apologizew for them?

Were there an organization claiming to be Christian that was targeting and murdering civilians around the world for 'the glory of God' you can bet that western nations would target that group with zeal.
Nagas, India (http://www.dailyherald.com/special/passagefromindia/nagaland.asp)

NLFT, India (http://www.stephen-knapp.com/thirteen_years_of_killings_in_tripura.htm)

Lord's Resistance Army, Uganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army)

What the hell are you talking about? You just don't understand the analogy.

I am not talking about directly equivalent actions, I am talking about the fact that it is no more fair to blame one group for the actions of a minority, than it is to blame another.

But yes, there are numerous acts which jews all over the world would have to condemn on a regular basis, were your principle applied universally. Blowing up a whole traffic junction to kill one guy, blowing up an apartment building to kill another, bulldozing people's homes, building a wall between people's houses and their farmland, all manner of unpleasantries like that.

One does not ask all jews to condemn those acts, so one cannot ask all muslims to condemn the acts of some people whose language they may not even speak, who only share a religion and probably not even denomination in common.

Yet you admit they are targeting one guy (a murderer) - who takes cover behind innocent human shields and who the Palestinians refuse to apprehend and in fact support. You are incapable of distinguishing between war, terrorism and law enforcement.

It is why I suggest every time election time comes around that they should make voting mandatory, like in Asutralia

Not a very democratic thing to do as some people choose not to vote. :( Why I do not know.

Did you read even one of the links? If so I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension.

The very first link was to the website of the Muslim Council of Britain, the organisation which represents British Muslims.


US goverment represent Americans? We are often reminded that it doesnt. Does vatican represent all catholics? Are all catholics homophobic? Just because MCB says something doesnt mean all british muslims share that view. Besides, havent you heard about public relations? If MCB were happy of attacks, would they broadcast it?


One link had a condemnation of terrorism from Canadian Muslim organisations.


Another muslim organisation based on west. If they sympathised with 9-11, would they really tell their true feelings? "yes, we came to your country and we applaud attacks against US" :rolleyes:
Even if those mentioned in your link are their true feelings of CMO, why didnt they organise any rallies?? Muslims can be organised and rally in mass numbers as we saw on cartoon issue.


Another link showed the most senior Islamic leader in Syria and the ayatollah of Iran condemning the 9/11 attacks.

Still other links offered condemnations from five major US Muslim organisations, as well as several respected Islamic scholars.



Still no public outcry. Just senior leaders saying that. Similar to:


Moderate Palestinians and the Palestinian leadership quickly distanced themselves from any celebrations(of 9-11). The Palestinian Authority recognized the matter as a public-relations nightmare and moved quickly to censor further reports of public celebrations.


How do we know those are the true feeling of those people but not a public relations move? USA was very angry and looking for a target. If any syrian politician cheered about 9-11, would they say it??


I suspect you're trolling because nobody could be this stupid


The fact that you can not connect the dots yourself is more of a reflection of your own intelligence...

They can have it both ways. Muslims are not a "hive-mind". It's a religion, made up of individuals.

The cartoon issue would seem to be an apropriate example of a unified response - because cartoons are so much more offensive than murder.

Did you read even one of the links? If so I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension.

The very first link was to the website of the Muslim Council of Britain, the organisation which represents British Muslims.

One link had a condemnation of terrorism from Canadian Muslim organisations.

Another link showed the most senior Islamic leader in Syria and the ayatollah of Iran condemning the 9/11 attacks.

Still other links offered condemnations from five major US Muslim organisations, as well as several respected Islamic scholars.

I suspect you're trolling because nobody could be this stupid.

Yet they didn't burn one single embassy or burn any flags. Hardly seems like any muslim demonstration I've ever seen. Certainly doesn't jive with the data from Norland's post (#76)

If I remeber correctly, there is a water station in Baghdad that has been blown up at least five-six times, because the companies will not give up on it.


You mean because the terrorists will now allow it to provide water to the Iraqis who require ir.

The Palestinians, Egyptians and several others also receive funding from America. Should they also be attacked? Your argument is shallow and uninformed.

Another shallow argument - If the Muslims did not bomb America and our allies they would have nothing to fear from America. There you go - battle of the shallow arguments.
So you feel that any murder of someone who commits blasphemy of any religion is justified? You are very sick.

You're not too bright are you. Stick to arranging the bottles and jars in your kitchen into nice neat rows and stop asking questions when you don't want answers.

Nagas, India (http://www.dailyherald.com/special/passagefromindia/nagaland.asp)

NLFT, India (http://www.stephen-knapp.com/thirteen_years_of_killings_in_tripura.htm)

Lord's Resistance Army, Uganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army)

Once again - you cannot differentiate between war, terrorism and law enforcement. Not one example you provided is comparable to the Bali bombing. Nor does it have the type of support or reaction in the west as demonstrated in post #76. Sorry - but your argument does not hold water.

You're not too bright are you. Stick to arranging the bottles and jars in your kitchen into nice neat rows and stop asking questions when you don't want answers.


Oh. THAT justifies your flimsy position quite well. I can't believe I didn't see tha light right away. I should just accept whatever I am told without asking for a rational explanation or questioning any inconsistiencies. Aftterall - it works so well for you.

Oh. THAT justifies your flimsy position quite well. I can't believe I didn't see tha light right away. I should just accept whatever I am told without asking for a rational explanation or questioning any inconsistiencies. Aftterall - it works so well for you.

Your argument is shallow and doesn't hold any water.

Beans, tinned tomatoes, packet of pasta, salt, sugar. No no wait, sugar then salt...

US goverment represent Americans? We are often reminded that it doesnt. Does vatican represent all catholics? Are all catholics homophobic? Just because MCB says something doesnt mean all british muslims share that view.

The MCB is made up of representatives from Muslim groups and organisations througho8t the UK. It is certainly representative enough of Muslim views to count as 'public outcry'. The same goes for the rest of the groups.

Besides, havent you heard about public relations? If MCB were happy of attacks, would they broadcast it?

Another muslim organisation based on west. If they sympathised with 9-11, would they really tell their true feelings? "yes, we came to your country and we applaud attacks against US" :rolleyes:
Even if those mentioned in your link are their true feelings of CMO, why didnt they organise any rallies?? Muslims can be organised and rally in mass numbers as we saw on cartoon issue.

Still no public outcry. Just senior leaders saying that. Similar to:

How do we know those are the true feeling of those people but not a public relations move? USA was very angry and looking for a target. If any syrian politician cheered about 9-11, would they say it??

If you're going to be so paranoid then why should I even bother responding to you? You're going to dismiss any Muslim condemnation of terrorism as 'good PR'; nothing I present will have any effect on you.

The fact that you can not connect the dots yourself is more of a reflection of your own intelligence...

Dots= vast number of condemnations from a range of Muslim scholars and organisations.

Connection= Muslims don't like terrorism?

Seems a pretty good conclusion to me.

Dots= vast number of condemnations from a range of Muslim scholars and organisations.

Connection= Muslims don't like terrorism?

And at the same time:

"Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad, Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations


"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education."
- Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR Spokesperson

The MCB is made up of representatives from Muslim groups and organisations througho8t the UK. It is certainly representative enough of Muslim views to count as 'public outcry'. The same goes for the rest of the groups.


Public outcry is when millions of muslims around the world rally and protest when some very bloody action is done in the name of their religion. Public outcry isnt some representitive of some organisation giving press conferences.



If you're going to be so paranoid then why should I even bother responding to you? You're going to dismiss any Muslim condemnation of terrorism as 'good PR'; nothing I present will have any effect on you.


It isnt paranoia, it is a reasonable suspicion, whether true or not. You might believe anything you are told. You might believe, if muslims in Britain did really cheer for 9-11, their organisation would voice their true opinion...



Dots= vast number of condemnations from a range of Muslim scholars and organisations.

Connection= Muslims don't like terrorism?

Seems a pretty good conclusion to me.

"Vast number of condemnations from a range of Muslim scholars and organisations" That happened when they warned about cartoon protests going violent. But that didnt stop burning of embassies, did it?

Yet they didn't burn one single embassy or burn any flags. Hardly seems like any muslim demonstration I've ever seen. Certainly doesn't jive with the data from Norland's post (#76)

Yes...Why didnt muslims burn the flags of Afghanistan which harboured such a person like bin Laden who insulted islam by killing thousands of civillians in the name of islam?

And there absolutely IS a connection between the Islamic communities response to the cartoons and their silence to terrorism.
Make your case, will you? What is it at the moment with people making these unsupported assertions?

None of that matters. Do they believe that the koran is allah's word? Then every line, from "love thy neighbour" to "kill the infidels" is relevant. That's their religion. I'm sorry, but only the most liberal of muslims can escape that one.
You weren't exactly paying attention when time after time all sorts of people on here pointed out the context of the lines people like you like to pull out of the Muslims' writings, were you.
Fact is that Islam doesn't talk about terrorism, nor about stabbing artists. None of these things are justified, even if you tried and construe them as defences of the faith.
The only way these things can be interpreted is in the context of Islamism rather than pure Islam. So go ahead, read the Islamism thread. Quit hiding behind ignorance.

Yet they didn't burn one single embassy or burn any flags. Hardly seems like any muslim demonstration I've ever seen.
You weren't by chance paying attention to the controversy around the French government banning headscarves at school, were you?

Certainly doesn't jive with the data from Norland's post (#76)
Only the first of the points matters. The rest are irrelevant.
And that first tells me that most of the people asked said "They had it coming."
Surprise, surprise. :rolleyes:
That was my second reaction to it as well, right after "I hope Bush doesn't go apeshit now." And why is that? Because the way you think about a major event like this is in terms of politics, not individuals dying. If people thought of the individuals, no one would be fighting wars.

Millions of people around the world, rose up and took to the streets to protest the US plans to invade Iraq. Millions of Americans said no to war. What good did it do? Absolutely nothing.

As a direct result, Muslims have even more reasons to fear the US agenda.

As a direct result, terrorism worldwide has increased.

As a direct result, there are now more Muslim militants.

Why is it their job to rise up and condemn the terrorists actions while the US is blowing up their brothers and sisters in Iraq and Afghanistan? Having said that, many Muslim leaders have expressed their outright displeasure with the terrotists actions.

What do you want, a written apology from Muslims?

Edit: I think it is threads such as these that increase the numbers of militants. Well done!! :p

Millions of Americans said no to war.

Millions of Americans did not say no to war. Millions of Americans did not, and are not protesting the war. Try a few thousand maybe. :rolleyes:

Edit: I think it is threads such as these that increase the numbers of militants. Well done!! :p

And just how do you think threads like this increase the numbers of millitants?

Actually, if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hanity, Laura Ingram, the Republicans in Congress, etc. They have all said that what Phelps is doing is wrong, and that regardless of your opinions over Gay-MArriage, it is NOT okay to murder people. Congress even passed a bill prevent Phelps from going within 200 feet or so of a funeral. Gotta try harder than that.

Muslim clerics have edited fatwas against Bin Laden. However, there are two reasons that they don't cry out:

1-Bin Laden isn't them.

2-What Bin Laden is doing isn't islamic.

As for the supposed "celebrations", the guy that brought this up pointed out the fact that they were staged. How many muslims will have to cry out before you get satisfied? Because I'll also demand that same amount of Christians to cry out against what Phelps does, what the Catholic Church does and did, and on the list goes. Just tell me a number and I'll begin making my demands.

The cartoon issue would seem to be an apropriate example of a unified response - because cartoons are so much more offensive than murder.

No. It's because Bin Laden is not one of THEM. Bin Laden attacked the Twin Towers, and he is not a muslim any more than Fred Phelps is a Christian. Plus, several of them DID express outrage, even though this didn't concern them at all. However, it's pretty easy to go "oh, there was no outrage" in order to simply attack muslims.

Y'know, out of bigotry.

The cartoons DID concern them, it DID mess with an icon of their faith. Bin Laden isn't even part of their faith, considering that there are fatwas against him. Also, the mainstream muslims protested peacefully. But they don't make the news, now do they?

How many muslims will have to cry out before you get satisfied?

How about the same number that cried out over the cartoons?

How about the same number that cried out over the cartoons?

You mean the ones that specifically targeted, attacked and knowingly offended them? Very well, but then I'll expect all the catholics in the world to say how much they regret what the Church is doing in Africa by spreading AIDS through withdrawing condoms, as well as all the evangelics for Fred Phelps and for Salem. I'm an occultist, so, by that logic, I deserve about five hundred million people apologizing to me for the witch hunts.

The cartoons DID concern them, it DID mess with an icon of their faith. Bin Laden isn't even part of their faith, considering that there are fatwas against him. Also, the mainstream muslims protested peacefully. But they don't make the news, now do they?

Maybe they didn't cry out about 9-11 because it was Bin Laden, but how about Bali, the hotel in Indonesia, Madrid, London? It was all done by Islamic militants in the name of their God, and that should concern them.

Jesus. Do you have a search engine?

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Maybe they didn't cry out about 9-11 because it was Bin Laden, but how about Bali, the hotel in Indonesia, Madrid, London? It was all done by Islamic militants in the name of their God, and that should concern them.

Because the Christians were so concerned with what Eric Robert Rudolph did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph

You mean the ones that specifically targeted, attacked and knowingly offended them? Very well, but then I'll expect all the catholics in the world to say how much they regret what the Church is doing in Africa by spreading AIDS through withdrawing condoms, as well as all the evangelics for Fred Phelps and for Salem. I'm an occultist, so, by that logic, I deserve about five hundred million people apologizing to me for the witch hunts.

Apples and...no comparison between Muslim terrorists and the above...not even close.

Apples and...no comparison between Muslim terrorists and the above...not even close.
Why?

Jesus. Do you have a search engine?

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It won't matter. They don't want an outcry, they want to be bigots.

Apples and...no comparison between Muslim terrorists and the above...not even close.

I was busy answering your other post, but I'll go with Desperate Measure's response: Why? Were the Salem Witch Trials more acceptable, by any chance? Or the genocide of MILLIONS (not 3,000) of Africans the Catholic Church is perpetrating by denying them condoms? So, give me outrage or I'll claim you support these actions!

The cartoon issue would seem to be an apropriate example of a unified response - because cartoons are so much more offensive than murder.
Muslims weren't united in their response to the cartoons. Some were calling for Danish people to be burned at the stake and others were saying that while they don't like the cartoons they support the right to publish it.

Yet they didn't burn one single embassy or burn any flags. Hardly seems like any muslim demonstration I've ever seen. Certainly doesn't jive with the data from Norland's post (#76)
Wtf? They didn't burn embassies or flags because only idiots do that.

You also think that because they don't burn things, they are not Muslims?

The fact that you can not connect the dots yourself is more of a reflection of your own intelligence...
All you did was provide some unsubstantiated claims that all of the above parties were lying.

Once again - you cannot differentiate between war, terrorism and law enforcement. Not one example you provided is comparable to the Bali bombing. Nor does it have the type of support or reaction in the west as demonstrated in post #76. Sorry - but your argument does not hold water.
None of them are government agencies and all are violent. None are condemned, let alone stopped by Western governments. I simply disproved your point that there were no Christian terrorist organisations.

And at the same time:

"Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad, Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations

"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education."
- Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR Spokesperson
Which puts them on the same level as Jerry Falwell, not Osama bin Laden.

Millions of Americans did not say no to war. Millions of Americans did not, and are not protesting the war. Try a few thousand maybe. :rolleyes:
In New York, the crowd was estimated at 500,000. When you combine all the US cities, I believe that it is well over a million protesters.

What you conveniently miss is that the polls reflected that Americans were saying no to war.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/107.php?nid=&id=&pnt=107&lb=btis

Whether they marched or were polled, millions of Americans were saying no to war.

Millions of Americans did not say no to war. Millions of Americans did not, and are not protesting the war. Try a few thousand maybe. :rolleyes:
Wow! I just saw this because that other guy responded to you. WOW! You have no idea!

And just how do you think threads like this increase the numbers of millitants?
Negative propaganda tends to create negative reactions. Most of the threads here on NS General have been negative towards Muslims, if not downright hateful, and this can create more hostility towards Muslim communities, and for the Muslims that read these threads it could cause them to seek retaliation. Hate is a powerful tool and I see way too much of it on these boards.

I saw lots of news footage of Palistinians out dancing in the streets.

Isn't is convenient that the Palestinian territories are suddenly "a country" when someone needs to find examples of an Islamic nation that cheered and celebrated 9-11?

:rolleyes:

Technically since the Palestinian territories are under Israeli occupation, it would be Israel that celebrated 9-11.

:p

I was busy answering your other post, but I'll go with Desperate Measure's response: Why? Were the Salem Witch Trials more acceptable, by any chance? Or the genocide of MILLIONS (not 3,000) of Africans the Catholic Church is perpetrating by denying them condoms? So, give me outrage or I'll claim you support these actions!

Okay, Celtlund, so far you failed to show outrage as a Christian for the Inquisition and for Salem. So, you support these actions.

QED.

Isn't is convenient that the Palestinian territories are suddenly "a country" when someone needs to find examples of an Islamic nation that cheered and celebrated 9-11?

:rolleyes:

Actually the person didn't say that Palestine was a country. Now, the term "nation" can be ambiguous. If it refers to a national identity in the anthropological sense, then there is a Palestinian nation. If it refers to a political nationality, then there is no Palestinian nation yet.

Technically since the Palestinian territories are under Israeli occupation, it would be Israel that celebrated 9-11.

:p

Technically it wouldn't, as the OT are not a part of Israel. No one claims that they are.

.And here we have the answer which should pretty much end the discussion:

Quote:
"People and politicians say where are the Muslim people, why aren't they on the streets defending themselves? They say we should go into the streets and condemn what happened so they see us as good Muslims," said Karima Ramani, a 20-year-old Dutch born to an Algerian father and Moroccan mother. "I don't feel it's my duty. I'm not responsible for the death of Van Gogh."

That's because she isn't responsible. Some nutcase with a knife is.

She is not as responable as the whole of Dennmark and Europe is not responsable for the Danish cartoons. Yet many in the Muslim leadership felt able to tar Europe with a single brush (equally Americans do to often also)

Yet many in the Muslim leadership felt able to tar Europe with a single brush (equally Americans do to often also)
And which "Muslim Leadership" are you talking about then? And what does this "leadership" have to do with that woman in Holland?

And which "Muslim Leadership" are you talking about then? And what does this "leadership" have to do with that woman in Holland?

The leadership being the Imams and other clerics who were recorded preaching about the evil and nasty west to angry mobs holding placards saying "Europe - take a lesson from 9-11" on the marches in and around London

The leadership being the Imams and other clerics who were recorded preaching about the evil and nasty west...
But not all the other Imams who didn't do that. Fact is that Islam doesn't have a leadership, and that there is absolutely no grounds for trying to blame all Muslims for the actions of a few.

...to angry mobs holding placards saying "Europe - take a lesson from 9-11" on the marches in and around London
Which was of course organised by a radical group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir) which is outlawed in many countries, but not in Britain. It's been established that many of the people who joined those protests didn't even know who organised them, and many left when they found out what they were doing in front of the cameras.

And then there was of course the British Council of Muslims, which asked for those with the signs to be prosecuted and punished. Not to speak of the millions of other Muslims all over Europe and the US who didn't protest at all, or did so peacefully and without calls for violence, just for some respect.

So again, what does all this have to do with this woman in Holland?

The leadership being the Imams and other clerics who were recorded preaching about the evil and nasty west to angry mobs holding placards saying "Europe - take a lesson from 9-11" on the marches in and around London

Again, what leadership? There is no single (or even close) unified voice. There are thousands of Imam's, most moderate, some firebrands.

Evil can triumph because good people do nothing?

Or Bush is in the White House

Again, what leadership? There is no single (or even close) unified voice. There are thousands of Imam's, most moderate, some firebrands.

It's acceptable to commit Biased Sample fallacies when someone's trying to paint Islam as The Wicked, Evil Baby-Eating Religion of Hate, Violence and Assimilation™.

If someone tried to do the same thing by painting Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and Fred Phelps as being equal to the Pope when it comes to representing American Protestants, you'd get plenty of "Bullshit" and "Nonsense" remarks in reply, usually with the "They don't blow people up" excuse.

Oh, and who dug this corpse up from the grave? Sheesh, at least people have the decency to let my threads stay dead and buried.

Or Bush is in the White House

Bush is the finest example of Good for Nothing men do nothing.

YOU CANNOT HOLD AN ENTIRE RELIGION RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF A FEW!!!


What makes you think that?:confused:

Its just like, I am a soldier, I do not expect to be held resonsible when another servicemember kills a civillian.

Islam is a relgion based on understanding. Just happens a rotten few ruin it for everyone. :eek:

Make one big camp in the Middleeast, and then put the hole bunch in it - no more muslims in the western world - that could be a goal. Then we put op a fence around the hungry Africa - then tthey can make unprotected sex and get AIDS or die by hunger!
I don't like those types of people, who dos'nt accept democracy and the way of living, that makes Europe and the USA to the god places they are.

YOU CANNOT HOLD AN ENTIRE RELIGION RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF A FEW!!!


What makes you think that?:confused:

Its just like, I am a soldier, I do not expect to be held resonsible when another servicemember kills a civillian.

Islam is a relgion based on understanding. Just happens a rotten few ruin it for everyone. :eek:

Now you did it. Some Bushevik's going to start linking and posting assloads of violent Qu'ran passages thanks to you :p

Now you did it. Some Bushevik's going to start linking and posting assloads of violent Qu'ran passages thanks to you :p


To be perfectly honest with you, I am not a liberal, I am a conservative, just a left leaning one. And yes, I do approve of Iraq before anyone asks.

If someone tried to do the same thing by painting Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and Fred Phelps as being equal to the Pope when it comes to representing American Protestants, you'd get plenty of "Bullshit" and "Nonsense" remarks in reply, usually with the "They don't blow people up" excuse.

Maybe because people like the pope and other mainstreem Christians are constantly denouncing them, and apologising for things like the crusades profusely. And maybe also because of the fact that countries under Islamic governmnents have apalling human rights records.

...and we should all do them a favour and send tham back, right? :rolleyes:

*shrug* Why not?

As the Emperor Claudius said: inasmuch as you can call it punishment to exile a Jew to Herod's kingdom...

Technically it wouldn't, as the OT are not a part of Israel. No one claims that they are.

The Knesset ignored all condemnation and passed an act annexing Arab East Jerusalem, if you might remember. Arab East Jerusalem is part of the occupied territories.