NationStates Jolt Archive

The United States is her own worst enemy. This is supported by not only world opinion, but statistics, cultural and political trends and we are doing it in the spotlight on the world stage.

I originally started this post on another thread, but I would like to explore the REASONS why the United States is her own worst enemy, and talk about some changes that could be made to reverse this trend.

The following is a bit of banter which exposes a nationalist attitude shared by many Americans and outlines a few of the issues where I think the United States is doing herself a great injustice, namely taking the position of world savior when in fact we can't even save ourselves, and taking the position that we are supportive of our military, when in fact most of them live just barely above the poverty line:

I still wonder why we bothered saving the world from communism and Hitler and Japan .

By we, do you mean the Allied Nations? Or are you an American taking credit for the whole project even though you only did part of the work?

Its not like anyone cares . They are all back to the usual crap that gets them killed in the long and short run .

And who is "they"?

from those that wish communism would PLEASE come back to those that see the US as the War mongering country of the devil and the big threat to world peace.

What, so you can come back in and do part of the work and take all of the credit for cleaning it up again?

Why do we bother ..aside from our own national interest?

BINGO! (A late epiphany is better than no epiphany I guess....)

We should at least take every soldier stationed in Europe and bring them home..let them...the European continent ... shoulder the burden of their past sins and clean up their own mess and defend themselves. spend some money on defense..we get NOTHING but bullshit from them anyway .

They are coming home. The Big Red One is returning from Germany as we speak. We are so happy to have them back. Their return is boosting our local economy. The boom their return is causing is incredible!

Unfortunately, they are having trouble finding affordable housing. Even here in Kansas, the cheapest new single-family home on the market is $150,000. They will have to take out 50 year mortgages in order to make house payments using their housing allowance alone. Its really sad. I wish we could have done better for them, but the feds are slow to raise the wages and benefits of the infantry divisions. So they come home to a sound ass-fucking. At least in Germany they could afford to live well. <sigh>

<snip rant> Let them kill each other they are good at it .

No actually, the US is really good at it. More US citizens kill each other every year than even those in the most war torn nations, with 37% of those murders occuring over "arguements" (1). We also have the highest rate of incarceration in the world at 726 per 100,000 (2).

America keeps looking outside herself for the war, while all along, the war is within. America is experiencing her "Dark Night of the Soul". Hopefully, when we come out the other side, we will be more enlightened.

(1)http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm
(2) http://www.publiceye.org/defendingjustice/pdfs/factsheets/9-Fact%20Sheet%20-%20US%20vs%20World.pdf

Some good points you've raised there.

We went from "nothing to fear but fear itself" to fighting an obsessive-compulsive war against "terrorists" who we are obviously afraid of.

I take it your not from the US

I take it your not from the US

Hopefully, when we come out the other side, we will be more enlightened.

Try again.

good points

I rather think we must consider the following:

The conduct of the USA would have been moderate in the age of colonialism, however this is not the age of colonialism. The Dollar Imperialism of 1947, and the following decades, is sufficiently transparent to reveal the disparity in ideology and conduct, and thus the hypocrisy, of the USA. The invasion of Iraq, essentially for self-serving motivations, would have been considered good form 150 years ago, however now it is considered imperialism in a post-colonial world.

My personal opinion is that the blind jingoism, ignorance and transparent imperialism of the USA is an anachronism, and, to an extent, an lingering remnant of the cold war.

The United States is her own worst enemy. This is supported by not only world opinion, but statistics, cultural and political trends and we are doing it in the spotlight on the world stage.
(Snipped)
so easy to take this one banter out of context.

without knowing what the thread was about, it's easy to say that 'We' can mean any country, or even a group of countries.

can you provide a link to the thread?

I take it your not from the US

I don't know why you would assume this. Is it so hard to believe that an American would have an objective view of America? I was born in raised in Kansas. That's in America. Right smack in the middle. Red as Red can be.

My ancestor's came from all over the globe, most of them arriving prior to the civil war. I am a descendant of one of the Alamo Defenders, Jacob Darst out of Kentucky. We have lost family in every American war before or since then. Don't talk to me about the price of freedom.

My ancestor's were primarily Western Europeans, but a bit of the family tree comes out of Eastern Europe as well. The point is, I am at least 5th, probably 6th generation American born. And I don't like what America has become. I expect more of America. I expect more of any country that is assumed to be the "leader of the free world".

I rather think we must consider the following:

The conduct of the USA would have been moderate in the age of colonialism, however this is not the age of colonialism. The Dollar Imperialism of 1947, and the following decades, is sufficiently transparent to reveal the disparity in ideology and conduct, and thus the hypocrisy, of the USA. The invasion of Iraq, essentially for self-serving motivations, would have been considered good form 150 years ago, however now it is considered imperialism in a post-colonial world.

My personal opinion is that the blind jingoism, ignorance and transparent imperialism of the USA is an anachronism, and, to an extent, an lingering remnant of the cold war.

Thought provoking comment. Well done.

so easy to take this one banter out of context.

without knowing what the thread was about, it's easy to say that 'We' can mean any country, or even a group of countries.

can you provide a link to the thread?

Oh yes, sure! Should have done this in first post, sorry....

ok im american and i find it insulting that every thread i look turns anti american
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=488965

Thought provoking comment. Well done.

SCORE! A post didn't meet disgreement:D

Some good points you've raised there.

We went from "nothing to fear but fear itself" to fighting an obsessive-compulsive war against "terrorists" who we are obviously afraid of.

Honestly, although I know my president wants me to be, I just am not afraid of terrorists. I am more afraid of christian fundementalist efforts to turn America into a Theocracy than I am of terrorists. What is a terrorist anyway but a poorly equipped (home-made bomb = poor military equipment) soldier in a war of ideals? Pffft. If my time is up, my time is up. Whether I go out in a "terrorist attack", a drunk driving accident, or a bad case of hemorrhoids is no concern of mine. We all gotta go some time. This one dude in the middle east said a long time ago, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall {e} preserve it." I think what he meant was "Paranoia The Destoyer" (Ray "Jesus" Davies).

Honestly, although I know my president wants me to be, I just am not afraid of terrorists. I am more afraid of christian fundementalist efforts to turn America into a Theocracy than I am of terrorists. What is a terrorist anyway but a poorly equipped (home-made bomb = poor military equipment) soldier in a war of ideals? Pffft. If my time is up, my time is up. Whether I go out in a "terrorist attack", a drunk driving accident, or a bad case of hemorrhoids is no concern of mine. We all gotta go some time. This one dude in the middle east said a long time ago, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall {e} preserve it." I think what he meant was "Paranoia The Destoyer" (Ray "Jesus" Davies).a terrorist is different than a reconized miliary personnel.

and technically speaking Fundies can be considered terrorists as well. ;)

Honestly, although I know my president wants me to be, I just am not afraid of terrorists. I am more afraid of christian fundementalist efforts to turn America into a Theocracy than I am of terrorists. What is a terrorist anyway but a poorly equipped (home-made bomb = poor military equipment) soldier in a war of ideals? Pffft. If my time is up, my time is up. Whether I go out in a "terrorist attack", a drunk driving accident, or a bad case of hemorrhoids is no concern of mine. We all gotta go some time. This one dude in the middle east said a long time ago, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall {e} preserve it." I think what he meant was "Paranoia The Destoyer" (Ray "Jesus" Davies).

I can't say I'm afraid of terrorists either. But it's really not [just] the president who uses and thus desires our fear; it's a whole industry that habitually perpetuates fear as a way of life.

When it comes to risk asssessment I'm pretty sure a lot of people have skewed views in general. There are people who are almost hypochondriacally afraid of cigarette smoke... but have no problems with automobile and industrial pollution. There are people who are afraid of terrorists, but drive on a freeway two or three times a day.

Me, I just accept that everything carries a risk, and while it'd be nice to minimize them, it's not my driving goal in life.

It's a cliche, but it's true. If we destroy our own values in the USA just out of fear of teh evil terrorists, then those terrorists have successfully used terror to coerce us into changing. Into destruction itself.

I hope the dark night ends but, I'm also not holding my breath. I think it's only begun.

Fear has its own domino effect. It was only the beginning with the World Wars. It slowly climbed with the Cold War, and the Vietnam and Korean Wars were merely a result of this. Now that we're in the War on Terror, it's really beginning to show, and it's obvious it's too late to turn back.

Unfortunately, they are having trouble finding affordable housing. Even here in Kansas, the cheapest new single-family home on the market is $150,000. They will have to take out 50 year mortgages in order to make house payments using their housing allowance alone. Its really sad. I wish we could have done better for them, but the feds are slow to raise the wages and benefits of the infantry divisions. So they come home to a sound ass-fucking. At least in Germany they could afford to live well.

Hah! Any Germans want to comment on how affordable housing is over there? :p

Anyway, I read the OP, (despite it being mainly an attack on some guy I don't know), but I thought this was funny. Although, seriously, cheap housing is everywhere in Kansas, and there are plenty of new developments selling for under 150. I'm not sure why someone would say that, unless they live in a pricey neighborhood. In any case, the military is not a career that pays well in the first few years. That's never going to change, and it's not plausible to be paying an 18-year old Pfc 35k/year. Not very many jobs allow you to buy a house before your 21st birthday in any field, not just the military. That said, I'm all for extending the education benefit if it has been cut back, although I don't believe it has.

a terrorist is different than a reconized miliary personnel.

and technically speaking Fundies can be considered terrorists as well. ;)

What ARE the differences, as you see them?

Fear has its own domino effect. It was only the beginning with the World Wars. It slowly climbed with the Cold War, and the Vietnam and Korean Wars were merely a result of this. Now that we're in the War on Terror, it's really beginning to show, and it's obvious it's too late to turn back.

Vote liberal?

I believe that the US makes many mistakes, but it is always looking to better itself and create peace not only within its own walls but everywhere else..that deserves respect!

Hah! Any Germans want to comment on how affordable housing is over there? :p

Anyway, I read the OP, (despite it being mainly an attack on some guy I don't know), but I thought this was funny. Although, seriously, cheap housing is everywhere in Kansas, and there are plenty of new developments selling for under 150. I'm not sure why someone would say that, unless they live in a pricey neighborhood. In any case, the military is not a career that pays well in the first few years. That's never going to change, and it's not plausible to be paying an 18-year old Pfc 35k/year. Not very many jobs allow you to buy a house before your 21st birthday in any field, not just the military. That said, I'm all for extending the education benefit if it has been cut back, although I don't believe it has.

Not saying you are wrong. I live within 12 miles of Ft. Riley, the home of the Big Red One. $150,000 has been cited as the LOW END of available housing within a 40 mile radius of Ft. Riley. Agreed, there is affordable housing in Kansas but much of it is in economically depressed areas such as SE Kansas, where poverty is VERY high. Most of the articles publish in the papers here cite this as being a problem for FAMILIES, not single enlisted men who have the option of living in barracks, the number of which has increased SUBSTANTIALLY over the last year in preparation for their return. I am sure you could log onto the Manhattan Merucy, The Fort Riley Post or the Junction City paper ( I forget the name of that one, but they are on the other side of post, which is also experiencing the crunch.) I believe you will find the situation is REAL and considered UNANTICIPATED. A lot of it is due to the cost of building in general which has skyrocketed since Katrina. Supplies are in high demand and things like lumber, electrical material, sheetrock and masonry are at a premium. I worked for an electrical contractor this last year and have first hand knowledge of this. I ran right out and invested in construction stocks.

Its always been apart of Americans to be cocky, the reason for this is probably becuase we were the first country to rise up and build itself in the manner we did, and defeating the worlds most pwer nation at the time, until vietnam we never lost a war...and to all the all balls american harcore ppl out there yeah we lost Nam and there was no chance we woulda ever won, anyway, But then we "won" :rolleyes: the cold war and became the worlds only super power and that let our Ego shoot up again.

However I still do believe America is a great, we just need to recognize other ppls efforts not just our own, like we give out so much credit of what we did in ww2, but in reality the biggest and most major fighting of that was in Russia, and just like America claims to be the savoir in that war, ie, with out us "you'd all be german right now" the same is true if Russia never helped, America would be half germany and half japan with out Russias help.

Not saying you are wrong. I live within 12 miles of Ft. Riley, the home of the Big Red One. $150,000 has been cited as the LOW END of available housing within a 40 mile radius of Ft. Riley. Agreed, there is affordable housing in Kansas but much of it is in economically depressed areas such as SE Kansas, where poverty is VERY high. Most of the articles publish in the papers here cite this as being a problem for FAMILIES, not single enlisted men who have the option of living in barracks, the number of which has increased SUBSTANTIALLY over the last year in preparation for their return. I am sure you could log onto the Manhattan Merucy, The Fort Riley Post or the Junction City paper ( I forget the name of that one, but they are on the other side of post, which is also experiencing the crunch.) I believe you will find the situation is REAL and considered UNANTICIPATED. A lot of it is due to the cost of building in general which has skyrocketed since Katrina. Supplies are in high demand and things like lumber, electrical material, sheetrock and masonry are at a premium. I worked for an electrical contractor this last year and have first hand knowledge of this. I ran right out and invested in construction stocks.

Average price is a hair above 100k according to these realtors:

http://www.homegain.com/local_real_estate/KS/fort_riley.html

Which seems accurate from my experience. Anyway, I don't doubt that soldiers with growing families on fixed incomes have problems, and I wouldn't oppose raising enlisted salaries past a certain point. Credit rating is going to be the root of the problem for most, I'd think.

Sorry to get sidetracked from the topic. :)

It's a cliche, but it's true. If we destroy our own values in the USA just out of fear of teh evil terrorists, then those terrorists have successfully used terror to coerce us into changing. Into destruction itself.

I hope the dark night ends but, I'm also not holding my breath. I think it's only begun.

I agreed with your whole thought-provoking post, but I will focus on this comment for brevity. When did we go from being a nation of "the free and the brave" (star spangled banner) to a nation tying itself to the mast of fear and paranoia? It wasn't just 9/11. It was the steady drum-beat of fear that his been coming out of the the political circles over the last decade or two. It's as if the event of the Berlin wall coming down left us scrambling to find a new enemy in order to unify us. This administration was ready to INVENT an enemy out of thin air by making wild accusations about WMD's EVEN BEFORE 9/11, (good read = "Plan of Attack" by Bob Woodward*) and it seems to me that before they recognized the political opportunity that 9/11 landed in their laps, they were a bit confounded by being blindsided by an enemy that had somehow missed in their search for their ideal nemesis. This administration's policy has been to stupify the American people with fear and then appear to be the hero coming to save the day, like an arsonist firefighter. Unfortunately, that policy served the American people poorly and rather than unite us against a common enemy has served more to divide us into two camps: those who are willing to believe and those who are not.


*Plan of Attack by Bob Woodward
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074325547X/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-1685868-0547160?%

Vote liberal?
Can't vote..even if I could I'm in a Republican state.

Average price is a hair above 100k according to these realtors:

http://www.homegain.com/local_real_estate/KS/fort_riley.html

Which seems accurate from my experience. Anyway, I don't doubt that soldiers with growing families on fixed incomes have problems, and I wouldn't oppose raising enlisted salaries past a certain point. Credit rating is going to be the root of the problem for most, I'd think.

Sorry to get sidetracked from the topic. :)

I never heard of Homegain. I suspect they are merely a portal, a web-site that gets money for click-throughs. I searched for my own home value using their data base and got a nil reply. IOW, they don't have my home, or likely my zip code (66502) in their database. Which I find interesting. Yes, credit ratings are going to be a problem for many low income families. No arguement there. They are going to pay in the neighborhood of 9% interest in a 6.9% market. Agreement there. Lemme just share with you what houses in my neighborhood (think 1950's brick slab anches, 3BDRM 1BATH 1CARGAR) have been going for. We bought this house in 1996 for $57,500. These houses, 55 years old, mind you, are selling for $130,000. None of them stay on the market longer than a week or two. This is largely due to the increased demand. So yes, there are cheaper, older homes available, and soldiers are buying them SIGHT UNSEEN. (Oy!)

I never heard of Homegain. I suspect they are merely a portal, a web-site that gets money for click-throughs. I searched for my own home value using their data base and got a nil reply. IOW, they don't have my home, or likely my zip code (66502) in their database.

Yeah, Google's pretty much failed me on the whole topic. I thought median housing prices would've been easier to find online. I'll check it out later on when I can.. I seem to lose track of time when I'm on the computer. It's like a spare-time vortex. :p

The US has everything to be a beacon of light. It has the money, brain power and technology to get off its addiction to foreign energy. All it needs is a people who is a 'bit' more weary of warmongering politicians, like most Europeans became of their own after WWII. I feel the Pentagon has too much influence on your politicians, something which is somewhat akin to a military dictatorship. Using weapons are always the easy way to get what you want but we all know the maxim "those who live by the sword die by the sword."

The world (starting with the US of course) needs US politicians which are more concerned with its internal affairs and less obsessed with controlling and manipulating the outside world. It also needs people that are a bit more aware of wars happening when things are not going great at home.

Recently, far too many times wars/strikes seem to have been used close to presidential elections, hinting at unpopular presidents trying to salvage their careers. In Europe, this would be the kiss of death (look at Spain and Britain). In the US, it works the other way around. It's unfortunate. Americans need to start make some clear distinctions that europeans have long learned:

The government is not the Flag; you (the people) are.
Criticising the government is not being anti-patriotic; placing the country in danger is.

When I went to the US in 2001, prior to 9/11, I saw a people who was warm, fun to be with, respectful, relaxed and hard-working. Unfortunately, the great time I had in Seattle and that idea that I got out of America, seems to have eroded with the actions of people like Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush and Dick Cheeney.

Pick your politicians better and you will be doing yourselves (first) and the rest of the world a big favour. I hope one day I can return to the US without feeling I'm betraying my principles... Right now, I just feel extremely disappointed. God bless you with the light that you need to get out of the dark hole where you seem to have fallen. All the best and good luck.

The United States is her own worst enemy. This is supported by not only world opinion, but statistics, cultural and political trends and we are doing it in the spotlight on the world stage.
<snip>
Excellent points. Thanks for making a thread about this. In another thread, I just got accused of supporting "islamofascism" because I denounced the fear-ridden warmongering of current US policy as dangerous to our society. In yet another thread, a while ago, I got point-blank called a terrorist for the same. :rolleyes:

<snip>
It's a cliche, but it's true. If we destroy our own values in the USA just out of fear of teh evil terrorists, then those terrorists have successfully used terror to coerce us into changing. Into destruction itself.

I hope the dark night ends but, I'm also not holding my breath. I think it's only begun.
I don't think it's a cliche if it's actually happening -- and I'm afraid it is. I'm afraid things are going to get worse before they get better.

And like you and others here, I also just can't seem to be able to feel afraid of terrorists. I can't even fake it. To me they are just another form of organized crime, and I just don't see why we aren't treating them that way.

On the whole, there are some Americans I fear a lot more than any terrorist.

Yeah, Google's pretty much failed me on the whole topic. I thought median housing prices would've been easier to find online. I'll check it out later on when I can.. I seem to lose track of time when I'm on the computer. It's like a spare-time vortex. :p

That it is, but its the only vice I have that my family doesn't give me hell about...LOL

=D

Recently, far too many times wars/strikes seem to have been used close to presidential elections, hinting at unpopular presidents trying to salvage their careers. In Europe, this would be the kiss of death (look at Spain and Britain). In the US, it works the other way around. It's unfortunate. Americans need to start make some clear distinctions that europeans have long learned:

The government is not the Flag; you (the people) are.
Criticising the government is not being anti-patriotic; placing the country in danger is.

Great post Assiss. I just picked my fave paragraph for quoting but the whole post was good. You show compassion for a people who have pretty much fucked themselves, which indicates the strength of your character.

You bring up the divisive issue of flag burning. I think we all agree it is a symbol. A symbol that no one gets upset if it gets left out in all kind of weather and becomes a shred, or get painted on a motorcyle gas tank and later gets crushed by a steel crusher. But don't set it on fire for gosh sakes. that really works people into a lather. The truth, I suspect is, people don't love the flag so much as they hate hippies. Unfortunately many people function at a mental level that does not allow them to self-examine and truly come to know their own motivations. My country wrong or wrong. Right? LOL

Excellent points. Thanks for making a thread about this. In another thread, I just got accused of supporting "islamofascism" because I denounced the fear-ridden warmongering of current US policy as dangerous to our society. In yet another thread, a while ago, I got point-blank called a terrorist for the same. :rolleyes:

Yeah. These are unfortunately common reactons from people who deny they are fascists. We have had for years a republican lead PR campaign that is quick to call anyone who disagrees a terrorist. Its ridiculous of course. My dad is a 74 yr old disabled Korean war veteran and has been treated as poorly for his right to an opinion. It's as if we have let our hate and anger take on a life of its own. As a people we have become intolerant and abusive toward dissent. We seem to have lost all sense of reason.

I think we need a huge public service campaign addressing these very issues. We could call it "STOP & THINK" or something like that. Just to get people to stop and consider all sides of every issue. We stopped thinking for ourselves, it seems. We are letting TV pundits tell us how to think. We need to be reminded how to spot sensationalism and ratings boosting mudslinging. Our TV news has begun to follow the Jerry Springer format and its like no one even notices. Its shocking, really.