NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060624/ap_on_go_pr_wh/presidential_authority


WASHINGTON - A secret CIA-Treasury program to track financial records of millions of Americans is the latest installment in an expansion of executive authority in the name of fighting terrorism. The administration doesn't apologize for President Bush's aggressive take on presidential powers. Vice President Dick Cheney even boasts about it.

Bush has made broad use of his powers, authorizing warrantless wiretaps, possibly collecting telephone records on millions of Americans, holding suspected terrorists overseas without legal protections and using up to 6,000 National Guard members to help patrol the border with Mexico.

That's in addition to the vast anti-terrorism powers Congress granted him in the recently extended Patriot Act.

Civil liberties activists, joined by congressional Democrats and some members of Bush's own party, suggest the president has pushed the envelope too far — usurping authority from Congress and abusing individual privacy rights in the process.

So far, the administration has been unapologetic.

"It's responsible government, it's effective government, it's government that works," outgoing Treasury Secretary John Snow asserted Friday at a news conference as he acknowledged — and defended — the far-reaching surveillance of banking transactions. He dismissed criticism that the program amounted to "data mining" on thousands of Americans.

Secret until disclosed on Thursday in news accounts, the program entails Treasury and CIA tracking of suspected terrorist financing, using access to a vast Belgium-based international database. The program was initiated shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

Polls show that Americans generally accept some erosion of civil liberties if they think it makes them safer from the possibility of terrorist attacks.

Still, Bush's war on terrorism is an open-ended one. Constitutional scholars suggest there are limits.

"At some point, the Constitution can't bear the kind of continued strains that are being imposed by the demands of the fight on terrorism," said Harold J. Krent, dean and professor of law at Kent College of Law in Chicago.,

"What I am worried about is that there is a potential for amassing huge databases of individuals — linked by phone records, linked by financial records — that can be kept and used without any kind of real oversight. It's frightening," Krent said.

Many in both parties point to Cheney as the engine behind Bush's power plays.

At a Republican luncheon in Chicago on Friday, Cheney defended the financial-data tracking and earlier surveillance programs as "good, solid, sound programs" and castigated the news media for disclosing them.

When Cheney in the 1970s was chief of staff to then-President Ford, he saw presidential authority at a low point, eroded by the unpopular Vietnam War and the Watergate scandals. The balance of power was still tilted in favor of Congress when he and Bush took office in January 2001, Cheney contends.

He and Bush thus believed it was important to "have the balance righted, if you will," Cheney told a National Press Club audience in Washington this week. "And I think we've done that successfully."

One reason the administration is engaging in so much secret surveillance is that current technology makes it so easy, suggested Paul Light, a public policy professor at New York University. "It's almost a case where the technology is leading the policy. If you can do it, why not do it?"

"Bush and his advisers just don't see privacy rights as a particularly balancing test in making the decision to go ahead with these techniques," Light said.

Americans may grow weary of surrendering individual rights if they decide terror-war thrusts intrude on their personal lives more directly, said pollster Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center. But that hasn't happened yet.

"Now there's still a forgiving attitude on the part of many people in the country," Kohut said.

He said that forgiving attitude could only be reinforced by the news from Miami of the arrest of seven men in an alleged plot against the Sears Tower in Chicago — men Attorney General Alberto Gonzales called "homegrown terrorists."

Bush isn't the first president to be accused of trying to expand presidential authority. The same charges were leveled against Democratic Presidents Franklin D. Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson.

"The standard view of liberals in the past was that presidents were too weak," said Princeton University political scientist Fred Greenstein. "But this is a seesaw business. It's always dependent on whose ox is being gored."

Doesn't bother me. As long as it is Constitutional, I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.

Is there anything left that Americans are permitted to keep to themselves? I mean, of course, apart from anti-war stuff?

Is there anything left that Americans are permitted to keep to themselves? I mean, of course, apart from anti-war stuff?
No, but plenty of things right.

No, but plenty of things right.

bush should have choked on the fucking pretzel....but alas...we get to see our kids die so halliburton can pad their account...fuck them and fuck bush..and i am a proud american....my kid is fighting to make the never been in school/army/danger ..assholes even richer...makes me want to puke!

No, but plenty of things right.

Either that's too deep for me to understand, or it doesn't make sense...So I'll pretend you quoted Lao Tse instead.

bush should have choked on the fucking pretzel....but alas...we get to see our kids die so halliburton can pad their account...fuck them and fuck bush..and i am a proud american....my kid is fighting to make the never been in school/army/danger ..assholes even richer...makes me want to puke!

And fuck u for not supporting the men that help this country.
How the hell does ur kid dieing have anything to do with, haliburton's payroll?

And who u talking about never ben in school/army/danger. Actually i don't think i know of any1 who hasn't been in any of those. U and ppl like u disgust me!

Either that's too deep for me to understand, or it doesn't make sense...So I'll pretend you quoted Lao Tse instead.
Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment.

bush should have choked on the fucking pretzel....but alas...we get to see our kids die so halliburton can pad their account...fuck them and fuck bush..and i am a proud american....my kid is fighting to make the never been in school/army/danger ..assholes even richer...makes me want to puke!

To paraphrase Mark Twain: Suppose you were a left-wing conspiracy nut, and suppose you were secret aj man; but I repeat myself.

:rolleyes:

Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment.

"One who is too insistent on his own views, finds few to agree with him."

Apparantly they had NS general forum in ancient China.

How the hell does ur kid dieing have anything to do with, haliburton's payroll?
I'm pretty sure his kid is in the US Military, my easily angered friend. :rolleyes:

Doesn't bother me. As long as it is Constitutional, I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.
There's nothing in the Constitution that says I can't come over to your house and tea-bag your mouth...

There's nothing in the Constitution that says I can't come over to your house and tea-bag your mouth...

Actually, wasn't there something about "the right to bare testicles" ?

"One who is too insistent on his own views, finds few to agree with him."

Apparantly they had NS general forum in ancient China.
He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.

There's nothing in the Constitution that says I can't come over to your house and tea-bag your mouth...
I am not at all interested in immortality, only in the taste of tea.

To paraphrase Mark Twain: Suppose you were a left-wing conspiracy nut, and suppose you were secret aj man; but I repeat myself.

:rolleyes:
You people are speaking gibberish, right? Because I have no clue what the fuck you are saying.

You people are speaking gibberish, right? Because I have no clue what the fuck you are saying.
Above all, do not compete.

Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment.



I love that remark. :)

You people are speaking gibberish, right? Because I have no clue what the fuck you are saying.

A tree that can fill the span of a man's arms grows from a downy tip; A terrace nine stories high rises from hodfuls of earth; A journey of a thousand miles starts from beneath one's feet.

“To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.”

I love that remark. :)
Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power.

A tree that can fill the span of a man's arms grows from a downy tip; A terrace nine stories high rises from hodfuls of earth; A journey of a thousand miles starts from beneath one's feet.
To see things in the seed, that is genius.

“The words of truth are always paradoxical.”

Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power.


Ok....:confused: :confused: :confused:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4779/huh8hc.jpg

“To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.”
The universe is deathless; is deathless because, having no finite self, it stays infinite. A sound man, by not advancing himself, stays the further ahead of himself; by not confining himself to himself sustains himself outside himself: by never being an end in himself he endlessly becomes himself.

Ok....:confused: :confused: :confused:
By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try, the world is beyond the winning.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.
Does that mean that you don't know what you're talking about either?

EDIT: Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I didn't realize I had wandered into a fortune cookie writers' convention. Never mind. :p

“The words of truth are always paradoxical.”
He who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.

By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try, the world is beyond the winning.



Ummmmm. *Walks towards the door*

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4779/huh8hc.jpg
When a nation is filled with strife, then do patriots flourish.

Does that mean that you don't know what you're talking about either?
Through nonaction nothing is left undone.

You people are speaking gibberish, right? Because I have no clue what the fuck you are saying.
Somebody set us up the bomb!:p

Ummmmm. *Walks towards the door*
If you do not change your direction, you may end up where you are heading.

This thread brought to you by the Online Society For the Advancement of Quotations by Lao-Tzu™.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4779/huh8hc.jpg
In this world, there is nothing softer or thinner than water. But to compel the hard and unyielding, it has no equal. That the weak overcomes the strong, that the hard gives way to the gentle -- this everyone knows. Yet no one asks accordingly

This thread brought to you by the Online Society For the Advancement of Quotations by Lao-Tzu™.
All your base are belong to us.

Actually, Wikiquote. I'd like to thank Lao-Tzu for the addition to my post-count.

In this world, there is nothing softer or thinner than water. But to compel the hard and unyielding, it has no equal. That the weak overcomes the strong, that the hard gives way to the gentle -- this everyone knows. Yet no one asks accordingly
When the center does not hold, the circle falls apart.

If you do not change your direction, you may end up where you are heading.


*Opens the door and runs across the street*



See Ya Later! I'll come back when I understand what you are saying!

The hell with Lao-Tzu. I'm going back to the Sexiest Man Pageant.

The hell with Lao-Tzu. I'm going back to the Sexiest Man Pageant.
When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.

*Opens the door and runs across the street*



See Ya Later! I'll come back when I understand what you are saying!
The true free living human-being is the one that achieves his dream without depending on someone.

You're laying it on a little thick, there.

You're laying it on a little thick, there.


Why did my thread get Hijacked by the ghosts of Confucius? :(

You're laying it on a little thick, there.
The Master has no possessions. The more he does for others, the happier he is. The more he gives to others, the wealthier he is.

Seems to be epidemic on the NS forum as of late. The one thread I started a while back got swamped with off topic responses, and the thread on "Why gay marriage is important" ended up getting side-tracked with just all kinds of tangential discussions.


The concensus amongst people who were still paying attention was that mass-scale ADHD is to blame.

NT

The Master has no possessions. The more he does for others, the happier he is. The more he gives to others, the wealthier he is.

Kinda like Brewster's Millions?

C'mon... play nice, Gin. Put Lao-Tzu's boxcutters down.

C'mon... play nice, Gin. Put Lao-Tzu's boxcutters down.

The man who puts down his boxcutter is the man who can no longer hijack a plane.

The man who puts down his boxcutter is the man who can no longer hijack a plane.
All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.

Why did my thread get Hijacked by the ghosts of Confucius? :(

Man goes to sleep with itchy ass. Wakes up with smelly finger.

On topic:

I suspect most Americans aren't aware of how the Patriot Act affects them.

"The as long as it is constitutional" comment earlier only serves to reinforce this. The Patriot Act IS unconstitutional. The only problem is that it is still deemed political suicide to oppose it. In fact I don't think the Supreme Court will even think about overturning it until after the 2008 elections. F***ing politicians.

Gimme back my damn rights to privacy and sanctity of the home.


You all are aware that the first person arrested under the Patriot Act was an American completely unassociated with terrorism?


Yeah, I'm still waiting to get my rights back.

NT

Man wakes up with smelly finger. Man constantly smells his finger and puts off taking a shower that morning.

Man wakes up with smelly finger. Man constantly smells his finger and puts off taking a shower that morning.

When walking through the garden of life, one must remember to stop smelling the finger.

When walking through the garden of life, one must remember to stop smelling the finger.

When smelling the finger, one must remember to act like he's just itching his nose when a really hot girl glances at him.

C'mon... play nice, Gin. Put Lao-Tzu's boxcutters down.
A culture is made -- or destoyed -- by its articulate voices.

He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.


According to your own words you must know practically nothing because you speak so bloody much. And understanding nothing is easy; there is nothing to understand.



I'll give you a clue; any fool can quote Zen and other philosophies but it is only through discussion and reflection that one may actually come to possess a useful understanding of the very truisms you quote.



And on the off chance that you may actually have some semblance of purpose in doing what you are doing: throwing a bunch of koans at people who aren't prepared to alter their understanding of reality is a useless prospect.


Reality is a construct of our own creation, and those who aren't ready to rebuild will not rebuild. For those who are not ready to rebuild you waste their time because they are here not to discuss reality, but American politics. And nothing you have said here has allowed them to further their understanding thereof. For those who are ready to rebuild you might have helped them start off on a new path, but it doesn't help them understand politics any better yet...

In sum your efforts amount to spam no matter what your purpose.

NT

According to your own words you must know practically nothing because you speak so bloody much. And understanding nothing is easy; there is nothing to understand.



I'll give you a clue; any fool can quote Zen and other philosophies but it is only through discussion and reflection that one may actually come to possess a useful understanding of the very truisms you quote.



And on the off chance that you may actually have some semblance of purpose in doing what you are doing: throwing a bunch of koans at people who aren't prepared to alter their understanding of reality is a useless prospect.


Reality is a construct of our own creation, and those who aren't ready to rebuild will not rebuild. For those who are not ready to rebuild you waste their time because they are here not to discuss reality, but American politics. And nothing you have said here has allowed them to further their understanding thereof. For those who are ready to rebuild you might have helped them start off on a new path, but it doesn't help them understand politics any better yet...

In sum your efforts amount to spam no matter what your purpose.

NT
There is no act, however virtuous, for which ingenuity may not find some bad motive.

Kinda like Brewster's Millions?
The Sun never repents of the good he does, nor does he ever demand a recompence.

A culture is made -- or destoyed -- by its articulate voices.

A civilization is made -- or destroyed -- by the strength of the ass-whiff on the fingers of the populace.

The Sun never repents of the good he does, nor does he ever demand a recompence.

That's a weird tabloid.

According to your own words you must know practically nothing because you speak so bloody much. And understanding nothing is easy; there is nothing to understand.



I'll give you a clue; any fool can quote Zen and other philosophies but it is only through discussion and reflection that one may actually come to possess a useful understanding of the very truisms you quote.



And on the off chance that you may actually have some semblance of purpose in doing what you are doing: throwing a bunch of koans at people who aren't prepared to alter their understanding of reality is a useless prospect.


Reality is a construct of our own creation, and those who aren't ready to rebuild will not rebuild. For those who are not ready to rebuild you waste their time because they are here not to discuss reality, but American politics. And nothing you have said here has allowed them to further their understanding thereof. For those who are ready to rebuild you might have helped them start off on a new path, but it doesn't help them understand politics any better yet...

In sum your efforts amount to spam no matter what your purpose.

NT

The normal man may say "Sniff my finger. It smells like ass." - a truly good man would say "Take my finger off, and sniff it as you go through the journeys of life. Remember: It smells like ass."

A civilization is made -- or destroyed -- by the strength of the ass-whiff on the fingers of the populace.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution.

There is no act, however virtuous, for which ingenuity may not find some bad motive.

Hilarious. And while I do appreciate the sentiment it still does not address the underlying fact that you are detracting from the ability of the other members to engage in a discussion of American politics, the CIA, and the Patriot Act.

Though to be honest I don't necessarily assert that your motives were contra-indicated, but rather that your means were contra-indicated. If you want to spend a thread casting a net for those ready to debate philosophy with you, then by all means. But this thread is not it.

NT

That's a weird tabloid.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.

Good, no problem with it, The CIA should do even more to track terrorists, and kill them.

Hilarious. And while I do appreciate the sentiment it still does not address the underlying fact that you are detracting from the ability of the other members to engage in a discussion of American politics, the CIA, and the Patriot Act.

Though to be honest I don't necessarily assert that your motives were contra-indicated, but rather that your means were contra-indicated. If you want to spend a thread casting a net for those ready to debate philosophy with you, then by all means. But this thread is not it.

NT
After reading posts from most of the pro-police-state-as-long-as-Bush-runs-it folks, a couple of whom are on page 1 of this thread, I'm kind of glad Ginnoria killed it. I could use a break from those people.

Oh, yeah, and the one right above me, too. :rolleyes: *goes back to sexy people threads*

And no I dont care if they listen in on me, all they will hear about is my loose bowels, and my beer orders anways. Muahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!

And no I dont care if they listen in on me, all they will hear about is my loose bowels, and my beer orders anways. Muahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!


Right so its ok to listen in on the innocent because they have nothing to hide...?


Yeah, I'm sure that NO ONE here has anything they would like to hide from other people: no secrets whatsoever... I mean who could ever want privacy?! Doesn't having people listen in on you having sex make it even more arousing?


Sorry, but I don't subscribe to bullshit magazine where people actually believe that the government only uses their powers on terrorists, especially when the first person detained under the Patriot Act wasn't even a terrorist. Then again I must be one of those rare people, who while not a total "lets blow up the government fucktard," does not also completely trust my government.

NT

A civilization is made -- or destroyed -- by the strength of the ass-whiff on the fingers of the populace.

Eating rye bread and prunes is patriotic.