NationStates Jolt Archive

In a stroke of genius, my Congressman has introduced legislation that should solve the illegal immigration problem on our southern border, as well as produce a solution that should be completely acceptable to our assistant President, Vincente Fox.

Linder's bill would put this country's immigration policy in line with what he says are the much more restrictive laws Mexico enforces by, among other things, requiring full registration of all foreign nationals and increasing fines and other penalties for those in the country illegally, including prison sentences for repeat offenders.

This should square things with the voters that were utterly disappointed with the Senate surrender.

http://linder.house.gov/index.cfm?Fuseaction=PressReleases.View&PressRelease_id=241

I feel bad for alot of them. I know some illegal ones.. and honestly most of them are just here to work and send money back to their family since mexico is poor.. I think they should be allowed to stay for so many months a year to work....

I feel bad for alot of them. I know some illegal ones.. and honestly most of them are just here to work and send money back to their family since mexico is poor.. I think they should be allowed to stay for so many months a year to work....

What else you want to believe? By 2050 Hispanics will be the majority of the country at current rates- and that is a fact.

What else you want to believe? By 2050 Hispanics will be the majority of the country at current rates- and that is a fact.

OH NO quick call in the National Guard, we need to shoot some damn spics!!!! ZOMG!!!

Get over it, damnation!

There is nothing bad about that- but this is proof that they are immigrating and reporoducing faster than anticipated.

I feel bad for alot of them. I know some illegal ones.. and honestly most of them are just here to work and send money back to their family since mexico is poor.. I think they should be allowed to stay for so many months a year to work....

If they are illegal they need to leave. If they have honest papers they can stay.

I'm sick and tired of Mexico outsourcing its poverty to the United States. Its their problem not ours.

If they are illegal they need to leave. If they have honest papers they can stay.

I'm sick and tired of Mexico outsourcing its poverty to the United States. Its their problem not ours.

Agreed on both counts.

What else you want to believe? By 2050 Hispanics will be the majority of the country at current rates- and that is a fact.
By 2050, I won't be white anymore.

I feel bad for alot of them. I know some illegal ones.. and honestly most of them are just here to work and send money back to their family since mexico is poor.. I think they should be allowed to stay for so many months a year to work....

i agree.i know many illegalls,very nice,hard working people.

fact is they illegally came here while others did it legally or are still waiting.
it is a slap in the face,and unfair to those that did it legally to let others cut in line...ilegally..while others did it right.
sucks,but that is the reality.

and trust me...some also come here (illegally) for very nefarious reasons.

i will link you to a state web site,where an illegal just killed a family in a dui accident...that was arrested 14 times for various crimes,and the state and the police said..we really cant do anything with illegals..it's the feds problem and they release them..if you had 14 arrests,as a citizen,i can guarentee you would be in jail,and that family would be alive.

thats why americans are getting pissed.

this whole issue scares the shit outta me..because i am afraid that at some point...legal people are gonna get sick of getting shit on,and the gov doing nothing,and take things into their own hands...and that will always be ugly.

i say,let people come here legally for work,give them some kind of id that can be tracked or withdrawn if they commit crimes,so they can make money..but jumping the border willy nilly has to stop...it is not just hardworkers jumping..but ms-13 types,and narco traffickers..and human slave traders..alll of which are despicable and has to stop.

my 2 cents

If they are illegal they need to leave. If they have honest papers they can stay.

I'm sick and tired of Mexico outsourcing its poverty to the United States. Its their problem not ours.


And for those that don't have the money to get a lawyer to help get the papers?

And for those that don't have the money to get a lawyer to help get the papers?

They're screwed. Complimentary of the American Legal system.

They're screwed. Complimentary of the American Legal system.


And that is fair how to them or their starving family?

Although I have no proof of this that is not at least 200 years old, I firmly believe that laissez fait border control would work.

It is pretty funny that our own politicians get queasy at the thought of enforcing the Mexican border, while Mexico's border with Guatemala looks like something you'd see in North Korea..

What else you want to believe? By 2050 Hispanics will be the majority of the country at current rates- and that is a fact.
So?

And how do you know that? How many people live in Mexico? 100 million? How many in the US? 300 million? If everyone in Mexico emmigrated to the US, leaving behind an entirely empty country, they still would not be a majority in the US, unless I'm really missing something.

I feel bad for alot of them. I know some illegal ones.. and honestly most of them are just here to work and send money back to their family since mexico is poor.. I think they should be allowed to stay for so many months a year to work....
Just two words ... Green card.

We've had a work visa program for years. Employers can certainly pay the fees, instead of the workers. Most do.

I fully agree, the problem all stemed from the Black Feat neglecting to check the passports of the Mayflower passengers

It is pretty funny that our own politicians get queasy at the thought of enforcing the Mexican border, while Mexico's border with Guatemala looks like something you'd see in North Korea..
No, it doesn't. It's even more porous than the northern border.

I honestly don't see how sinking to the level of the Mexican government somehow makes us better than them. In case you forgot (since it's the far right that is supposedly the home of "Christian morality") you are supposed to be forgiving and "Turn the other cheeck".

If the government would just relax immigration quotas, it would make things better both for immigrants, and for our budget. Require security and background checks on people crossing, and then the people who cross illegally can be assumed to have mallicious intent. Then "tighter" border security might be justified.

If they are illegal they need to leave. If they have honest papers they can stay.

Honest papers that take thousands of dollars to get. And perhaps more than a decade. Maybe in your reality, poor migrant laborers can just sit around for years, dolling out money to the Department of Homeland Security, but in the real world if they could do that, they wouldn't be immigrating in the first place.

It saddens me that so many "conservatives" who are supposedly pro-capitalist are in favor of stupidly bureacratic government interference in the labor market.


I'm sick and tired of Mexico outsourcing its poverty to the United States. Its their problem not ours.

Outsourcing its poverty? Please. California receives its share of illegal immigrants, probably more than most other states - and it's the wealthiest state in the US of A. Wealthier than most countries, in fact. Pays in taxes more than it receives in services too, so you can't really blurt out the old welfare leech excuse either. Economics shows the free movement of goods, services and labor is good for the economy, not bad. Educate yourself.

I honestly don't see how sinking to the level of the Mexican government somehow makes us better than them. In case you forgot (since it's the far right that is supposedly the home of "Christian morality") you are supposed to be forgiving and "Turn the other cheeck".

If the government would just relax immigration quotas, it would make things better both for immigrants, and for our budget. Require security and background checks on people crossing, and then the people who cross illegally can be assumed to have mallicious intent. Then "tighter" border security might be justified.
No one expects that bill to even be voted on. It's more of a protest of the Senate's surrender to Mexico than anything else. It's just one more reason I'm glad to support Mr. Fair Tax.

No, it doesn't. It's even more porous than the northern border.

It's true there's no physical resemblance, and it'd be impossible to shut it down totally there, but I'm pretty sure that in terms of guards-per-mile, it's better fortified than the U.S./Mexico border and many other notable ones.

It saddens me that so many "conservatives" who are supposedly pro-capitalist are in favor of stupidly bureacratic government interference in the labor market.


Conservatives do tend to believe in national borders. There's nothing anti-Capitalist about enforcing them, either. You may be thinking of that other political system of belief that favors abolishing national borders... I can't think of the name at the moment..maybe you can jog my memory... :p

Conservatives do tend to believe in national borders. There's nothing anti-Capitalist about enforcing them, either. You may be thinking of that other political system of belief that favors abolishing national borders... I can't think of the name at the moment..maybe you can jog my memory... :p

Well, communism claims to want open borders, but in practice, it's always turned out the other way. Berlin Wall, Border Guards being militarized, "papers please" every five seconds... see that reminds me of both Soviets and Republicans. :p

I think getting worked up over "honest papers" by immigrants making them bad is a sign of anti-capitalistic tendencies, since it's a major precedent for government interfering with the labor market. It invites a mentality that government interference makes things alright. And so it goes until the 'conservatives' in the US are just as big spenders as the 'liberals.'

Or maybe I'm just too free-market for the GOP. Either way.

It's true there's no physical resemblance, and it'd be impossible to shut it down totally there, but I'm pretty sure that in terms of guards-per-mile, it's better fortified than the U.S./Mexico border and many other notable ones.
There are probably more soldiers in the area than there are in the US southern border, but most of that presence is due to the Zapatista guerrilla in the area.
The Mara Salvatrucha has made the Federal government send more border guards to the area too.

No one expects that bill to even be voted on. It's more of a protest of the Senate's surrender to Mexico than anything else. It's just one more reason I'm glad to support Mr. Fair Tax.


Why? so the poor can get poorer and the rich get richer? :rolleyes:

Fair is not always equal.

I honestly don't see how sinking to the level of the Mexican government somehow makes us better than them. In case you forgot (since it's the far right that is supposedly the home of "Christian morality") you are supposed to be forgiving and "Turn the other cheeck".

If the government would just relax immigration quotas, it would make things better both for immigrants, and for our budget. Require security and background checks on people crossing, and then the people who cross illegally can be assumed to have mallicious intent. Then "tighter" border security might be justified.

i have to agree.

but what to do with the illegal border jumpers?

send them home so they can try again?

i am all for relaxing the laws for legal immigration,you dont think there will be a big stink for us closing the border after we relax immagration?

the bleeding hearts will whine like they always do...for political gain..that we are profiling...illegals...lol...and one wonders why the people on the border are arming up.

In a stroke of genius, my Congressman has introduced legislation that should solve the illegal immigration problem on our southern border, as well as produce a solution that should be completely acceptable to our assistant President, Vincente Fox.

Linder's bill would put this country's immigration policy in line with what he says are the much more restrictive laws Mexico enforces by, among other things, requiring full registration of all foreign nationals and increasing fines and other penalties for those in the country illegally, including prison sentences for repeat offenders.

This should square things with the voters that were utterly disappointed with the Senate surrender.

http://linder.house.gov/index.cfm?Fuseaction=PressReleases.View&PressRelease_id=241

That's not how Mexico handles it's illegal immigration problem. Their laws restricting immigration is rather like our federal laws requiring seat belts in cars. The laws were written to say it had to be done the way it was already being done.

The real way that Mexico keeps itself from having a problem with illegal immigrants is by being an economic shithole.

Why? so the poor can get poorer and the rich get richer? :rolleyes:

Fair is not always equal.
And life is not always fair.

i have to agree.

but what to do with the illegal border jumpers?

send them home so they can try again?

i am all for relaxing the laws for legal immigration,you dont think there will be a big stink for us closing the border after we relax immagration?

the bleeding hearts will whine like they always do...for political gain..that we are profiling...illegals...lol...and one wonders why the people on the border are arming up.

There are very few bleeding hearts in the USA. If immigration becomes a practical process, and not impossible for most people, it is not unreasonable to jail people who cross illegally (because, of course, they were no longer being constrained by stupid quota laws and financial requirements).

I'm no more a fan of vigilante "justice" than I am of the corruption of justice that jailing the large number of people who just cross the border illegally for the good of their family would be. So the groups like the "minute men" (a name once used by a racist group in the 1960s or 70s, can't remember) are no better in my book than the obsessive compulsive "law" loving right.

Fully opened borders are impracitical, but with good background check and searches we can allow the genuine immigrants across the border and keep out the drug-runners and other threats to security.

And life is not always fair.

The name of the tax is misleading. It is an "equal" tax, but it is not a fair one.

Life is not fair, perhaps, but that doesn't mean we need to fight to make it worse for people. A practical, teired income tax just works better.

It would be very easy to stop illegal immigration: invade Mexico and take over. You can't immigrate to another country if you are already part of it.

The name of the tax is misleading. It is an "equal" tax, but it is not a fair one.

Life is not fair, perhaps, but that doesn't mean we need to fight to make it worse for people. A practical, teired income tax just works better.
I'm going to bet that you know absolutely nothing about the fair tax that was introduced as HB-25. If you think you do, I'd be happy to destroy any criticisms that you may care make.

Otherwise, go back to your little red book.

It would be very easy to stop illegal immigration: invade Mexico and take over. You can't immigrate to another country if you are already part of it.
There are two things that the Mexican government could do to make travel to the United States easier for it's citizens. The first is to participate in the Visa Waiver Program, so that a visa is unnecessary. A number of other countries do that very thing. The other thing is to instruct their citizens how to obtain the border crossing card that is used by over 4 million Mexicans to cross legally.

Vincente Fox insists on promoting illegal immigration to the United States, however. And that's just wrong.

There are two things that the Mexican government could do to make travel to the United States easier for it's citizens. The first is to participate in the Visa Waiver Program, so that a visa is unnecessary. A number of other countries do that very thing.
That would give them the right to visit Disneyland, not to work.

The other thing is to instruct their citizens how to obtain the border crossing card that is used by over 4 million Mexicans to cross legally.
Moving everybody to the border is not that realistic, specially when they wouldn't be allowed to go in further than a determined distance and not get a job.

Vincente Fox insists on promoting illegal immigration to the United States, however. And that's just wrong.
Yup. That it is. It's Vicente, by the way.

In a stroke of genius, my Congressman has introduced legislation that should solve the illegal immigration problem on our southern border, as well as produce a solution that should be completely acceptable to our assistant President, Vincente Fox.

Linder's bill would put this country's immigration policy in line with what he says are the much more restrictive laws Mexico enforces by, among other things, requiring full registration of all foreign nationals and increasing fines and other penalties for those in the country illegally, including prison sentences for repeat offenders.

This should square things with the voters that were utterly disappointed with the Senate surrender.

http://linder.house.gov/index.cfm?Fuseaction=PressReleases.View&PressRelease_id=241


[mr burns]

Exceeeeelent!

[mr burns]

In this thread I am well pleased.

It would be very easy to stop illegal immigration: invade Mexico and take over. You can't immigrate to another country if you are already part of it.

WHO in their RIGHT MIND would want mexico?

IIRC they were cheering when the planes hit the pentagon and WTC.

Just to spite them...let's beat them in soccer.

I'm going to bet that you know absolutely nothing about the fair tax that was introduced as HB-25. If you think you do, I'd be happy to destroy any criticisms that you may care make.

Otherwise, go back to your little red book.

I'm definately a commie. Oh you know it. I see communism as slavery, and I'm so into that, you know? Ad hominem attacks (especially when so blatantly false) are a sign of an innability to debate rationally.

My knowledge of the fair tax is enough:
- It is a flat sales tax (already bad right there, as Sales taxes are regressive)
- It doesn't tax necessities (What's a necessity? For me. dancing shoes are a luxury, but for a professional dancer, they're a necessity. So much for getting rid of beurocracy, eh?)

I don't waste hours on it. because a quick overview is enough to see the basic flaws. A sales tax is a regressive tax that harms the poor more than the rich. If you see taxation as a basic harm, you have to acknowledge that it is inherantly unfair (and arguably, not equal).

I feel bad for alot of them. I know some illegal ones.. and honestly most of them are just here to work and send money back to their family since mexico is poor.. I think they should be allowed to stay for so many months a year to work....
Hey dude, do you live in New York?

And that is fair how to them or their starving family?

Why is this the problem of the United States and not Mexico!?

Honest papers that take thousands of dollars to get. And perhaps more than a decade. Maybe in your reality, poor migrant laborers can just sit around for years, dolling out money to the Department of Homeland Security, but in the real world if they could do that, they wouldn't be immigrating in the first place.


They do not take thousands of dollars nor does it take a decade to get temporary workers visa, educate yourself. If Mexico simply educated their population about the US immigration system instead of kicking their poor north of the border tout suite to send home remittances then this wouldn't be a problem. We would know then who is in the country, as well as their legal and medical status.



It saddens me that so many "conservatives" who are supposedly pro-capitalist are in favor of stupidly bureacratic government interference in the labor market.


That's bullshit. I want my country to survive economically. Illegal immigration only supports greedy capitalist interests while screwing the home grown poor who really needs to the work. CEO's are willing to send us down the river for profits. I don't give a shit if my lettuce is 20 cents cheaper. My medical insurance is going up because the illegals who don't have insurance use of the hospital emergency rooms. My auto insurance takes the hit when illagals who don't have insurance and a license crack up their car and depend on my no-fault coverage. I'm sick of this shit.


Outsourcing its poverty? Please. California receives its share of illegal immigrants, probably more than most other states - and it's the wealthiest state in the US of A. Wealthier than most countries, in fact. Pays in taxes more than it receives in services too, so you can't really blurt out the old welfare leech excuse either. Economics shows the free movement of goods, services and labor is good for the economy, not bad. Educate yourself.

Um, didn't California almost declare freakin bankruptcy. Don't you remember all those bonds that Arnold needed to float to keep the budget balanced. California is an economic basketcase. California has a large GDP because of its size and all the port activity being the point of arrival and departure for most Asian / Pacific trade.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

I'm definately a commie. Oh you know it. I see communism as slavery, and I'm so into that, you know? Ad hominem attacks (especially when so blatantly false) are a sign of an innability to debate rationally.

My knowledge of the fair tax is enough:
- It is a flat sales tax (already bad right there, as Sales taxes are regressive)
- It doesn't tax necessities (What's a necessity? For me. dancing shoes are a luxury, but for a professional dancer, they're a necessity. So much for getting rid of beurocracy, eh?)

I don't waste hours on it. because a quick overview is enough to see the basic flaws. A sales tax is a regressive tax that harms the poor more than the rich. If you see taxation as a basic harm, you have to acknowledge that it is inherantly unfair (and arguably, not equal).
The tax bill includes a pre-bate that refunds the taxes on necessities. If you consider your dancing shoes a necessity, then you can consider the pre-bate applied to them. Whatever the case, _everyone_ gets this payment. Still looks like the sainted poor make out better in this scheme.

That's bullshit. I want my country to survive economically. Illegal immigration only supports greedy capitalist interests while screwing the home grown poor who really needs to the work.

So where are all the gringos lining up on the curbs to landscape my lawn, pick my crops, clean my toilets, and serve my meals?

So where are all the gringos lining up on the curbs to landscape my lawn, pick my crops, clean my toilets, and serve my meals?
If they had all their payroll taxes paid by the employer, there might be a few more. One reason illegals are so cheap is that they don't require the overhead of a worker with a real social security card.

I'll be there'd be a few more kids working in McDonalds and Piggly-Wiggly, too.

So where are all the gringos lining up on the curbs to landscape my lawn, pick my crops, clean my toilets, and serve my meals?

Everywhere. They just insist on a reasonable wage to do it.

Which is why you hire illegals willing to put up with a ridiculously low wage - for your own ease. Here in Oz, people of all races do those jobs, for a fair wage, nd guess what? Our economy is stronger for it.

Illegals should be rounded up, identified, and deported. Not for any economic reason, but simply because they spit on American law simply by being in the US. They are, every one, criminals, and should be dealt with as such.

So where are all the gringos lining up on the curbs to landscape my lawn, pick my crops, clean my toilets, and serve my meals?

They are all collecting welfare and voting Democrat.

They do not take thousands of dollars nor does it take a decade to get temporary workers visa, educate yourself.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/

Fact doesn't seem to support your assertion.


That's bullshit. I want my country to survive economically. Illegal immigration only supports greedy capitalist interests while screwing the home grown poor who really needs to the work.

Several assumptions you make.

1, that immigration (legal or otherwise) will "kill" the country economically. Not based on fact, and false.

2, that 'greedy capitalist interests' is inherently bad. If you're anti-capitalistic, I suggest you go to China. Good news for you - they looove border control there.

3, that "home grown" poor need the work more than Mexican migrants, that they are somehow more deserving. My fat immigrant-descended ass!

My medical insurance is going up because the illegals who don't have insurance use of the hospital emergency rooms.

Oh, cry me a river. These people face poverty and oppression back home, and now you complain because they are human beings who sometimes need medical care TOO. You have this "us versus them," zero-sum-game mentality which is sickening. Do you blame me for breathing "your" air too?


My auto insurance takes the hit when illagals who don't have insurance and a license crack up their car and depend on my no-fault coverage. I'm sick of this shit.

Yeah, well fuck your auto insurance. I doubt you can make a real case for blaming "illegals" (nice dehumanization there BTW) for every time you have to pay more for your precious insurance either.


Um, didn't California almost declare freakin bankruptcy.

The government is not the state.

Almost is not quite there.

California is an economic basketcase.

L O L

California has a large GDP because of its size and all the port activity being the point of arrival and departure for most Asian / Pacific trade.

If it has a large GDP, its not a "basketcase."

Why is this the problem of the United States and not Mexico!?

I guess because the USA is the leader of the free world, the home of the American Dream, the Statue of Liberty, and open arms for hard-working immigrants.

But I'm sure you have a different view.

If it has a large GDP, its not a "basketcase."

I'm sure that this means it has a large budget surplus, right? I think that might be a little more relevant than the size of it's GDP.