NationStates Jolt Archive

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

no. Israel is a nation like any other, and should not be exempt from judgement only because it is a Jewish nation.

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?
Not really ... but does collateral damage in a war make the state of Israel deserve destruction?

No. Plenty of Jews have done so, and will continue to do so.

Of course not, but I question if your opinion about the state of Israel is fair.

Death is ugly and horrifying and we have deep instincts that shudder at seeing it. But be wary of being manipulated by people keen on using those instincts.

study the history. Read an Arab author, read a Jewish author, see if the Swedes have said anything. Triangulate.

To the degree that having a well founded opinion on this matters to you, of course.

no. Israel is a nation like any other, and should not be exempt from judgement only because it is a Jewish nation.
Quite.

Only Kahanists would say Yes. Everyone else agrees you can criticize Israel and its policies without being a Neo-Nazi Anti-Semite.

Do not forget that the Israelis do not purposefuly target civilians, the Palestinians do, they TRY to kill innocent people, innocent children, therefore Israel is more in the right than Palestine. Granted, it would work out a lot better if when there was a ceasefire, militants would not fire rockets into Israeili soil.

Im not sayin that the Israelis are saint, or even close to, but they certainly are more humane than the militant Palestinians.

Let the anti-israel flaming commence :upyours: :upyours: :upyours:

Do not forget that the Israelis do not purposefuly target civilians, the Palestinians do, they TRY to kill innocent people, innocent children, therefore Israel is more in the right than Palestine. Granted, it would work out a lot better if when there was a ceasefire, militants would not fire rockets into Israeili soil.

Im not sayin that the Israelis are saint, or even close to, but they certainly are more humane than the militant Palestinians.

And if palestine was the one with the incredibly well funded army, do you really think the israeli's would try to only fight conventionally?

Well, possibly the Palestinians could just stop fighting, would solve the entire conflict, they will never be able to beat Israel, and if they did somehow manage to, they would just be taking lands from Israel that was rightfully Israels.

And if palestine was the one with the incredibly well funded army, do you really think the israeli's would try to only fight conventionally?
The Jews have been repeatedly persecuted throughout their entire history virtually everywhere in the world; Italy, Germany, Russia, the Middle East, and so on. And still, I have yet to hear of a Jewish suicide bomber.

Well, possibly the Palestinians could just stop fighting, would solve the entire conflict, they will never be able to beat Israel, and if they did somehow manage to, they would just be taking lands from Israel that was rightfully Israels.
and therein lies the entire issue. It isn't that cut and dry. The Iraqis could "just stop fighting". then again, so could the Americans. The Palestinians could just stop fighting, but then, so could Israel. It can be said for both sides in every war ever fought. The conflict wouldn't be solved, it just wouldn't be violent anymore, and nothing would get solved.

The Jews have been repeatedly persecuted throughout their entire history virtually everywhere in the world; Italy, Germany, Russia, the Middle East, and so on. And still, I have yet to hear of a Jewish suicide bomber.
Jews did have a militant army in modern day Israel while it was a british protectorate...I forget the groups name. Let me Wiki it...

ETA: the Irgun and Lehi.

Well, possibly the Palestinians could just stop fighting, would solve the entire conflict, they will never be able to beat Israel, and if they did somehow manage to, they would just be taking lands from Israel that was rightfully Israels.


Well....Why should they? They're being occupied. Try telling some NRA member in the states to let everybody who wants to use his land and evict him from his home and see what answer you get.


Do not forget that the Israelis do not purposefuly target civilians, the Palestinians do, they TRY to kill innocent people, innocent children, therefore Israel is more in the right than Palestine. .

"Both sides are equally guilty of targeting civillians" I would let go, but that claim of yours just doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

Both sides are guilty of shocking things. I still find it very interesting that most Americans, as citizen of a country that FOUGHT for its freedom (and continues to do so...abroad), can so easily dismis that these people are fighting for what they believe is theirs. That's BOTH (say it loud!) sides. Yes, i agree, it's not nice to see Israeli civilians being blown up - but it's equally disturbing to see how Palestinian children are being starved to death (remember: the fence/wall was the reason for the ICRC to make its first political statement in more the 25 years!). Is it ok to target civilians? No? If so, why was never anybody charged for the thousands and thousands of dead civilians due to bombing and nukes in Germany and Japan? Most of these attacks had no other reason than to dishearten the enemy (and test some weapons and fuel the economy). If you believe that it was ok (because it was the evil Germans and Japanese), well, then you'll have to admit that disheartening Isrealis through blowing up civilians is equally ok.

I find that most people have a very single minded view on this subject. And we're not even involved! Can you imagine how it is to be Israeli or Palestinian?

The Jews have been repeatedly persecuted throughout their entire history virtually everywhere in the world; Italy, Germany, Russia, the Middle East, and so on. And still, I have yet to hear of a Jewish suicide bomber.

Suicide bombing is a relatively new strategic concept. Suicide attacks, however, is as old as warfare. It has been used by highly motivated (read: fanatic) parties, especially when fighting a numerically superior and better equipped opponent. There were such attacks made by jews against the Romans in biblical days.

And, as for Israel striking sivilians, well, even smart bombs have bad days. Only CNN believe that you can strike an object surrounded by soft targets and expect zero collateral damage. Israel have used Hellfire missiles against appartment buildings to take out Hamas-leaders, and no, they didn't evacuate the recidents. But, omlets and eggs, right?

Perhaps it'd be more fair to say that Israel justifies civilian deaths by claiming terrorists use civilians as human shields.
Meanwhile, Palestinian resistance claims there's no such thing as Israeli civilians, as they're all IDFers, or will be.

I think both camps would do well to stop trying to rationalise the rather indiscriminate murder of the general population. It's disgusting.

Both sides are guilty of shocking things. I still find it very interesting that most Americans, as citizen of a country that FOUGHT for its freedom (and continues to do so...abroad), can so easily dismis that these people are fighting for what they believe is theirs. That's BOTH (say it loud!) sides. Yes, i agree, it's not nice to see Israeli civilians being blown up - but it's equally disturbing to see how Palestinian children are being starved to death (remember: the fence/wall was the reason for the ICRC to make its first political statement in more the 25 years!).

SNIP

The keyword here seems to be fight.

Since these Palestinians, and Arabs in general, haven't got the guts to fight properly, the word 'fight' is misemployed in their case.

Let 'em show a proper fight, in well-organised ranks, disciplined, with not a peep but for the barked commands of Officers and NCOs, and we'll think it over again.

You call their style fighting? More like a howling mob.
It's not like they're standing still to the Birkenhead Drill, is it?

The keyword here seems to be fight.

Since these Palestinians, and Arabs in general, haven't got the guts to fight properly, the word 'fight' is misemployed in their case.

Let 'em show a proper fight, in well-organised ranks, disciplined, with not a peep but for the barked commands of Officers and NCOs, and we'll think it over again.

You call their style fighting? More like a howling mob.
It's not like they're standing still to the Birkenhead Drill, is it?

my friend, conventional warfare does not require more guts. What requires more guts? firing a cruise missile from 2000 miles away? dropping a bomb from 30000 feet in the air? or strapping explosives to yourself and blowing yourself up? It would require alot more guts to be a suicide bomber.

What conventional warfare requires is not guts, but resources. If the Palestinians had a country, where they could boost their economy, and fund a millitary, then you would see a conventional army with well organised ranks, discipline, officers and NCOs.

If you cant do that, your going to have to resort to terrorism, they dont have the resources or technology to fund an army. If israel wants to see the palestinians fight a real fight, they could split their weapons, equipment, and vehicles in half, so that they have similar levels of weaponry, and then fight to see who wins.

I bet that if Palestinians had apaches, they wont need to be suicide bombers.

The keyword here seems to be fight.

Since these Palestinians, and Arabs in general, haven't got the guts to fight properly, the word 'fight' is misemployed in their case.

Let 'em show a proper fight, in well-organised ranks, disciplined, with not a peep but for the barked commands of Officers and NCOs, and we'll think it over again.

You call their style fighting? More like a howling mob.
It's not like they're standing still to the Birkenhead Drill, is it?

my friend, conventional warfare does not require more guts. What requires more guts? firing a cruise missile from 2000 miles away? dropping a bomb from 30000 feet in the air? or strapping explosives to yourself and blowing yourself up? It would require alot more guts to be a suicide bomber.

What conventional warfare requires is not guts, but resources. If the Palestinians had a country, where they could boost their economy, and fund a millitary, then you would see a conventional army with well organised ranks, discipline, officers and NCOs.

If you cant do that, your going to have to resort to terrorism, they dont have the resources or technology to fund an army. If israel wants to see the palestinians fight a real fight, they could split their weapons, equipment, and vehicles in half, so that they have similar levels of weaponry, and then fight to see who wins.

I bet that if Palestinians had apaches, they wont need to be suicide bombers.

The keyword here seems to be fight.

Since these Palestinians, and Arabs in general, haven't got the guts to fight properly, the word 'fight' is misemployed in their case.

Let 'em show a proper fight, in well-organised ranks, disciplined, with not a peep but for the barked commands of Officers and NCOs, and we'll think it over again.

You call their style fighting? More like a howling mob.
It's not like they're standing still to the Birkenhead Drill, is it?
Arm the Palestinians up in the same fashion as the Isrealis are armed up and that'd be alright. As it stands, I can definitely see why the Palestinians do what they do.

Doesn't change the fact that strapping dynamite and rat poison to yourself is a blatant attempt to go after unarmored civlian targets, and while it probably does take some kind of courage (I would call it suicidal obsession, but that's more a matter of semantics) it does not change the fact that not only is this a "non-traditional method of combat," but it is a non-military action on the part of the bomber.



Military action conducted by soldiers is one thing. Soldiers know the risks and are known combatants, and when soldiers fight the opportunity to harm non-combatants is minimized. I would start bandying about words like "civlized" "discriminating fire" and "legal targets" but I suspect that falls upon deaf ears. Suicide bombings are indiscriminate attacks on illegal targets and serves only to destablize the social structure in the region.




And as far as the two sides go: Yeah Israel has expanded beyond its originally mandated size. Some people, who shall remain nameless, decided they wanted to try and take that land away. Israel keeps some extra land. Same thing happens again. Israel keeps some extra land. And here we are today where Israel is much larger and the groups responsible have either backed off or been reduced to living in a tiny portion of what was formerly their "country."


I'm all for peace and giving palestinians a land area sufficient for them to live comfortably in, but demanding Israel return everything is ludicrous in my eyes. Taken at the personal level it would be like someone trying to murder me, me taking the persons guns, and then after we talk things over he demands his guns back. Well tough shit. It ain't happening. Next time don't try and get your buddies to screw over Israel.



But don't confuse me for an Israel-lover. I'm an Israel "apologist" when it comes to its current incarnation, but I detest the strength of the Jewish lobby and the US' connection to Israel. I'd just as soon cut off Israel and leave it out to dry. Israel gets way too much foreign aid as far as I am concerned. I figure if everyone involved's faith is so strong why not let God sort it out...

NT

Military action conducted by soldiers is one thing. Soldiers know the risks and are known combatants, and when soldiers fight the opportunity to harm non-combatants is minimized. I would start bandying about words like "civlized" "discriminating fire" and "legal targets" but I suspect that falls upon deaf ears. Suicide bombings are indiscriminate attacks on illegal targets and serves only to destablize the social structure in the region.[QUOTE]

Well, the last hundred years have saw how the civilians casualties haver risen and the soldiers ones have decreased, so it's not a evil question, is a matter of times, that are becoming more and more violent. And suicide bombings are illegal on the same legality that allowed the creation of a jew estate on arab lands so....



[QUOTE]
I'm all for peace and giving palestinians a land area sufficient for them to live comfortably in, but demanding Israel return everything is ludicrous in my eyes. Taken at the personal level it would be like someone trying to murder me, me taking the persons guns, and then after we talk things over he demands his guns back. Well tough shit. It ain't happening. Next time don't try and get your buddies to screw over Israel.[QUOTE]

I see it more like if someone enters your house to steal and then you fight against him, but you're defeated and so many times 'til you arrive to the point that you have to recognize his right to stay or you'll lost every single room.

[QUOTE]
But don't confuse me for an Israel-lover. I'm an Israel "apologist" when it comes to its current incarnation, but I detest the strength of the Jewish lobby and the US' connection to Israel. I'd just as soon cut off Israel and leave it out to dry. Israel gets way too much foreign aid as far as I am concerned. I figure if everyone involved's faith is so strong why not let God sort it out...

NT


About the general question, I'm not antisemitic but antisionistic. And jews best refuge from prosecution was for many centuries the otoman empire, so the middle East. I think Israel had to be created but not in Palestine but in Germany, and be granted by the UN and so.

About the general question, I'm not antisemitic but antisionistic. And jews best refuge from prosecution was for many centuries the otoman empire, so the middle East. I think Israel had to be created but not in Palestine but in Germany, and be granted by the UN and so.
Or as an even better idea that might actually reduce anti-semitism - why not simply let them go back home after the holocaust?

But as the Germans say, was passiert ist, ist passiert. Not much we can do about it now.

Oh and taking it out of Germany would be possibly the stupidest thing ever. German children were educated that the Jews were a force of evil, if you then take German land, then it makes the myth starts to seem true.

Some even speculate if the arabs would hate the Jews if they DIDN'T have Israel, because a regular muslim from, let's say, Indonesia, wouldn't give a damn about them.

So no, I don't think it's unfair to have opinions against Israel, but in doing so, you have to also have opinions against the Palestinians, they both go hand in hand.

As a matter of fact, there are even some ultra-orthodox Jews who will not live in Israel, because they believe that the government there isn't religious enough as the Jewish laws say, and plus, there is no reason for them to live in a hell hole like that, because they are happy making millions and billions of dollars up in New York by cutting diamonds and such, until the Messiah comes.:rolleyes:

Well, possibly the Palestinians could just stop fighting, would solve the entire conflict, they will never be able to beat Israel, and if they did somehow manage to, they would just be taking lands from Israel that was rightfully Israels.

Hows this land rightfully Israels. It was palestinian, Israelies just used the Holocaust as an excuse to take land, by force, and the palestinians, who had nothing to do with WW2 suffered. Hows this right?
You cant simply argue, it was Israels land before. The Jews havent been in control of this land for atleast 1500 years. So is it fair to return the land to whom owned it 1500 years ago? I think not.
Please make sure you know what your talking about before you say it.

Oh and taking it out of Germany would be possibly the stupidest thing ever. German children were educated that the Jews were a force of evil, if you then take German land, then it makes the myth starts to seem true.

Well, now are arab children who are grown thinking jews are the enemy. Much better, shure. Germany losts a big amount of territory to give it to the polish, 'cause they had to give have their country to the russians, so I don't see why the allies couldn't do the same for the jews. I think is fairer to build a jewish state on the defeated criminal germany than on arab innocent lands.
Anyway, the need for Israel, a jew state, is a shame for the democracies, where we are supposed to be just citizens, no matter your race, religion, and so. So shame on us, europeans.

what i feel is right is for some nation of israel to exist, also a nation of tibet and a nation of hawaii. what i don't feel is right is for any nation to treat anyone within its borders any differently then anyone else within its borders on the basis of belief or ethnicity. and i seriously question the moral validity of any nation not seperating 'church' and state. that includes 'islamic' nations, 'christian' nations, even buddhist nations.

what i would like to see done with israel, is to have it turned into an international federal district as the seat of a truely representative of the will of people, and not nations or economic interests, world government with the teeth to actualy enforce international law.

one not based in nor derived from any one super power government nor exclusive club of some arbitrary small number thereof.

=^^=
.../\...

No it isn't even though Israel is based around the jews and they define jewish subversive actions.

SNIP



A] You are no friend of mine. Is that brilliantly clear?
B] What you bet is no concern of mine.
C] When your lot outnumbered and outequipped the Yishuv, your lot fought as contemptible tossers as well.

Arm the Palestinians up in the same fashion as the Isrealis are armed up and that'd be alright. As it stands, I can definitely see why the Palestinians do what they do.

Yooto, when those Arabs had the advantage in numbers and equipment, they got their behinds kicked so far behind them...

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?
Not at all. I'm Half-Jewish by birth...but I think some of the stuff Isreal does is wrong...but, then again, their great compared to the rest of the Mid East. I don't know...

A] You are no friend of mine. Is that brilliantly clear?
B] What you bet is no concern of mine.
C] When your lot outnumbered and outequipped the Yishuv, your lot fought as contemptible tossers as well.

temper temper. its funny, this shows how when an arab opens his arms for a hug, as I was trying to do when i called you my friend, you act as if i was about to strike you. When I called you my friend, I was doing it with prior knowledge that these always end up as flame wars, to avoid that, its best to keep the discussion as friendly as possible.

My usage of the word "bet" was linking to what people bet on, that is when odds favour them. I could've used "my prediction" "chances are" "studies show" etc. but i decided to keep it informal and use the simple word "bet". However, I wasnt expecting to have to spoonfeed you every little detail in my correspondence.

can i also ask what you meant by "your lot". This is quite an insulting way to round up the arabic countries and people, however bear in mind they are separate countries. If you are talking about the people of my country, Iraq, we did very well in the wars against Israel, wiki it. However Jordan is in the way for sizeable any ground offensive against Israel, so in short wars, our tanks cant drive all the way through Jordan in time.

Can i also ask you how is it fair that when iraq occupies kuwait, who fought like contemtible tossers, the world marches against us, however when israel occupies land far out of its mandate it is considered fair game? a little bit of a double standard dont you agree? arent we a bit passed the time where the person who was right was the person with the largest guns? Has history taught you nothing?

Finally, please reply to my actual arguement, do not try to deviate from the subject line.


No hard feelings tho aye? :fluffle:

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?
Nope.

Personally, I would love to see The Holy Land irradiated so that it is totally uninhabitable for the next ten thousand years. Doesn't have anything to do with Jews or Muslims or Christians or any other religious group, it's just about my complete lack of patience for the murderous squabbling that's been going on in that area of the world for so goddam long.

SNIP

Neither truce nor parley.

Blair may be fool who wishes for friendship with you,
but my name is not Tony.

Neither truce nor parley.

Blair may be fool who wishes for friendship with you,
but my name is not Tony.

do you actually have an arguement or do you just hate arabs?

do you actually have an arguement or do you just hate arabs?

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Joni Cesta
Jeffrey M. Chairnoff
Swarna Chalasani
William Chalcoff
Eli Chalouh
Charles Lawrence (Chip) Chan
Mandy Chang
Mark L. Charette
Gregorio Manuel Chavez
Jayceryll M. de Chavez
Pedro Francisco Checo
Douglas MacMillan Cherry
Stephen Patrick Cherry
Vernon Paul Cherry
Nestor Chevalier
Swede Joseph Chevalier
Alexander H. Chiang
Dorothy J. Chiarchiaro
Luis Alfonso Chimbo
Robert Chin
Wing Wai (Eddie) Ching
Nicholas P. Chiofalo
John Chipura
Peter A. Chirchirillo
Catherine E. Chirls
Kyung (Kaccy) Cho
Abul K. Chowdhury
Mohammed Salahuddin Chowdhury
Kirsten L. Christophe
Pamela Chu
Steven Paul Chucknick
Wai-ching Chung
Christopher Ciafardini
Alex F. Ciccone
Frances Ann Cilente
Elaine Cillo
Edna Cintron
Nestor Andre Cintron
Lt. Robert Dominick Cirri
Juan Pablo Alvarez Cisneros
Gregory Alan Clark
Mannie Leroy Clark
Thomas R. Clark
Eugene Clark
Benjamin Keefe Clark
Christopher Robert Clarke
Donna Clarke
Michael Clarke
Suria R.E. Clarke
Kevin Francis Cleary
James D. Cleere
Geoffrey W. Cloud
Susan M. Clyne
Steven Coakley
Jeffrey Coale
Patricia A. Cody
Daniel Michael Coffey
Jason Matthew Coffey
Florence Cohen
Kevin Sanford Cohen
Anthony Joseph Coladonato
Mark J. Colaio
Stephen J. Colaio
Christopher M. Colasanti
Michel Paris Colbert
Kevin Nathaniel Colbert
Keith Eugene Coleman
Scott Thomas Coleman
Tarel Coleman
Liam Joseph Colhoun
Robert D. Colin
Robert J. Coll
Jean Marie Collin
John Michael Collins
Michael L. Collins
Thomas J. Collins
Joseph Collison
Patricia Malia Colodner
Linda M. Colon
Soledi Colon
Ronald Comer
Jaime Concepcion
Albert Conde
Denease Conley
Susan Clancy Conlon
Margaret Mary Conner
Cynthia L. Connolly
John E. Connolly
James Lee Connor
Jonathan (J.C.) Connors
Kevin P. Connors
Kevin Francis Conroy
Brenda E. Conway
Dennis Michael Cook
Helen D. Cook
John A. Cooper
Joseph J. Coppo
Gerard J. Coppola
Joseph Albert Corbett
Alejandro Cordero
Robert Cordice
Ruben D. Correa
Danny A. Correa-Gutierrez
James Corrigan
Carlos Cortes
Kevin M. Cosgrove
Dolores Marie Costa
Digna Alexandra Rivera Costanza
Charles Gregory Costello
Michael S. Costello
Conrod K.H. Cottoy
Martin Coughlan
Sgt. John Gerard Coughlin
Timothy John Coughlin
James E. Cove
Andre Cox
Frederick John Cox
James Raymond Coyle
Michelle Coyle-Eulau
Christopher Seton Cramer
Anne M. Cramer
Denise Crant
Robert James Crawford
James L. Crawford
Joanne Mary Cregan
Lucia Crifasi
Lt. John Crisci
Daniel Hal Crisman
Dennis A. Cross
Helen Crossin-Kittle
Kevin Raymond Crotty
Thomas G. Crotty
John Crowe
Welles Remy Crowther
Robert L. Cruikshank
Francisco Cruz
John Robert Cruz
Kenneth John Cubas
Richard Joseph Cudina
Neil James Cudmore
Thomas Patrick Cullen
Joan McConnell Cullinan
Joyce Cummings
Brian Thomas Cummins
Nilton Albuquerque Fernao Cunha
Michael Joseph Cunningham
Robert Curatolo
Laurence Curia
Paul Dario Curioli
Beverly Curry
Sgt. Michael Curtin
Gavin Cushny
Caleb Arron Dack
Carlos S. DaCosta
John D'Allara
Vincent D'Amadeo
Thomas A. Damaskinos
Jack L. D'Ambrosi
Jeannine Marie Damiani-Jones
Patrick W. Danahy
Nana Kwuku Danso
Mary D'Antonio
Vincent G. Danz
Dwight Donald Darcy
Elizabeth Ann Darling
Annette Andrea Dataram
Lt. Edward Alexander D'Atri
Michael D. D'Auria
Lawrence Davidson
Michael Allen Davidson
Scott Matthew Davidson
Titus Davidson
Niurka Davila
Clinton Davis
Wayne Terrial Davis
Calvin Dawson
Anthony Richard Dawson
Edward James Day
Emerita (Emy) De La Pena
Melanie Louise De Vere
William T. Dean
Robert J. DeAngelis
Thomas P. Deangelis
Tara Debek
Anna Debin
James V. DeBlase
Paul DeCola
Simon Dedvukaj
Jason Christopher DeFazio
David A. Defeo
Jennifer DeJesus
Monique E. DeJesus
Nereida DeJesus
Donald A. Delapenha
Vito Joseph Deleo
Danielle Delie
Colleen Ann Deloughery
Anthony Demas
Martin DeMeo
Francis X. Deming
Carol K. Demitz
Kevin Dennis
Thomas F. Dennis
Jean C. DePalma
Jose Nicolas Depena
Robert J. Deraney
Michael DeRienzo
David Paul Derubbio
Jemal Legesse DeSantis
Christian L. DeSimone
Edward DeSimone
Lt. Andrew Desperito
Michael Jude D'Esposito
Cindy Ann Deuel
Jerry DeVito
Robert P. Devitt
Dennis Lawrence Devlin
Gerard Dewan
Simon Suleman Ali Kassamali Dhanani
Michael L. DiAgostino
Obdulio Ruiz Diaz
Matthew Diaz
Nancy Diaz
Lourdes Galletti Diaz
Michael Diaz-Piedra
Judith Belguese Diaz-Sierra
Patricia F. DiChiaro
Joseph Dermot Dickey
Lawrence Patrick Dickinson
Michael David Diehl
John DiFato
Vincent F. DiFazio
Carl DiFranco
Donald J. DiFranco
Debra Ann DiMartino
Stephen P. Dimino
William J. Dimmling
Christopher Dincuff
Jeffrey M. Dingle
Anthony DiOnisio
George DiPasquale
Joseph DiPilato
Douglas Frank DiStefano








Victims and Heroes who died at World Trade Center
Ramzi A. Doany
John J. Doherty
Melissa C. Doi
Brendan Dolan
Neil Dollard
James Joseph Domanico
Benilda Pascua Domingo
Charles (Carlos) Dominguez
Geronimo (Jerome) Mark Patrick Dominguez
Lt. Kevin W. Donnelly
Jacqueline Donovan
Stephen Dorf
Thomas Dowd
Lt. Kevin Christopher Dowdell
Mary Yolanda Dowling
Raymond M. Downey
Joseph M. Doyle
Frank Joseph Doyle
Randy Drake
Stephen Patrick Driscoll
Mirna A. Duarte
Luke A. Dudek
Christopher Michael Duffy
Gerard Duffy
Michael Joseph Duffy
Thomas W. Duffy
Antoinette Duger
Jackie Sayegh Duggan
Sareve Dukat
Christopher Joseph Dunne
Richard A. Dunstan
Patrick Thomas Dwyer
Joseph Anthony Eacobacci
John Bruce Eagleson
Robert D. Eaton
Dean P. Eberling
Margaret Ruth Echtermann
Paul Robert Eckna
Constantine (Gus) Economos
Dennis Michael Edwards
Michael Hardy Edwards
Lisa Egan
Capt. Martin Egan
Michael Egan
Christine Egan
Samantha Egan
Carole Eggert
Lisa Caren Weinstein Ehrlich
John Ernst (Jack) Eichler
Eric Adam Eisenberg
Daphne F. Elder
Michael J. Elferis
Mark J. Ellis
Valerie Silver Ellis
Albert Alfy William Elmarry
Edgar H. Emery
Doris Suk-Yuen Eng
Christopher S. Epps
Ulf Ramm Ericson
Erwin L. Erker
William J. Erwin
Sarah (Ali) Escarcega
Jose Espinal
Fanny M. Espinoza
Francis Esposito
Lt. Michael Esposito
William Esposito
Brigette Ann Esposito
Ruben Esquilin
Sadie Ette
Barbara G. Etzold
Eric Brian Evans
Robert Edward Evans
Meredith Emily June Ewart
Catherine K. Fagan
Patricia M. Fagan
Keith G. Fairben
William Fallon
William F. Fallon
Anthony J. Fallone
Dolores B. Fanelli
John Joseph Fanning
Kathleen (Kit) Faragher
Capt. Thomas Farino
Nancy Carole Farley
Elizabeth Ann (Betty) Farmer
Douglas Farnum
John W. Farrell
Terrence Patrick Farrell
John G. Farrell
Capt. Joseph Farrelly
Thomas P. Farrelly
Syed Abdul Fatha
Christopher Faughnan
Wendy R. Faulkner
Shannon M. Fava
Bernard D. Favuzza
Robert Fazio
Ronald C. Fazio
William Feehan
Francis J. (Frank) Feely
Garth E. Feeney
Sean B. Fegan
Lee S. Fehling
Peter Feidelberg
Alan D. Feinberg
Rosa Maria Feliciano
Edward T. Fergus
George Ferguson
Henry Fernandez
Judy H. Fernandez
Jose Manuel Contreras Fernandez
Elisa Giselle Ferraina
Anne Marie Sallerin Ferreira
Robert John Ferris
David Francis Ferrugio
Louis V. Fersini
Michael David Ferugio
Bradley James Fetchet
Jennifer Louise Fialko
Kristen Fiedel
Samuel Fields
Michael Bradley Finnegan
Timothy J. Finnerty
Michael Curtis Fiore
Stephen J. Fiorelli
Paul M. Fiori
John Fiorito
Lt. John R. Fischer
Andrew Fisher
Thomas J. Fisher
Bennett Lawson Fisher
John Roger Fisher
Lucy Fishman
Ryan D. Fitzgerald
Thomas Fitzpatrick
Richard P. Fitzsimons
Salvatore A. Fiumefreddo
Christina Donovan Flannery
Eileen Flecha
Andre G. Fletcher
Carl Flickinger
John Joseph Florio
Joseph W. Flounders
David Fodor
Lt. Michael N. Fodor
Steven Mark Fogel
Thomas Foley
David Fontana
Chih Min (Dennis) Foo
Del Rose Forbes-Cheatham
Godwin Forde
Donald A. Foreman
Christopher Hugh Forsythe
Claudia Alicia Martinez Foster
Noel J. Foster
Ana Fosteris
Robert J. Foti
Jeffrey L. Fox
Virginia Fox
Virgin (Lucy) Francis
Pauline Francis
Joan Francis
Morton Frank
Gary J. Frank
Peter Christopher Frank
Richard K. Fraser
Kevin Joseph Frawley
Clyde Frazier
Lillian I. Frederick
Andrew Fredericks
Tamitha Freemen
Brett O. Freiman
Lt. Peter L. Freund
Arlene E. Fried
Alan Wayne Friedlander
Andrew K. Friedman
Gregg J. Froehner
Peter Christian Fry
Clement Fumando
Steven Elliot Furman
Paul James Furmato
Fredric Gabler
Richard S. Gabrielle
James Andrew Gadiel
Pamela Gaff
Ervin Vincent Gailliard
Deanna L. Galante
Grace Galante
Anthony Edward Gallagher
Daniel James Gallagher
John Patrick Gallagher
Cono E. Gallo
Vincenzo Gallucci
Thomas Edward Galvin
Giovanna (Genni) Gambale
Thomas Gambino
Giann F. Gamboa
Peter J. Ganci
Claude Michael Gann
Lt. Charles William Garbarini
Cesar Garcia
David Garcia
Jorge Luis Morron Garcia
Juan Garcia
Marlyn C. Garcia
Christopher Gardner
Douglas B. Gardner
Harvey J. Gardner
Thomas A. Gardner
Jeffrey B. Gardner
William Arthur Gardner
Francesco Garfi
Rocco Gargano
James M. Gartenberg
Matthew David Garvey
Bruce Gary
Palmina Delli Gatti
Boyd A. Gatton
Donald Richard Gavagan
Terence D. Gazzani
Gary Geidel
Paul Hamilton Geier
Julie M. Geis
Peter Gelinas
Steven Paul Geller
Howard G. Gelling
Peter Victor Genco
Steven Gregory Genovese
Alayne F. Gentul
Edward F. Geraghty
Suzanne Geraty
Ralph Gerhardt
Robert J. Gerlich
Denis P. Germain
Marina R. Gertsberg
Susan M. Getzendanner
James Gerard Geyer
Joseph M. Giaccone
Lt. Vincent Francis Giammona
Debra L. Gibbon
James A. Giberson
Craig Neil Gibson
Ronnie Gies
Laura A. Giglio
Andrew Clive Gilbert
Timothy Paul Gilbert
Paul Stuart Gilbey
Paul John Gill
Mark Y. Gilles
Evan H. Gillette
Ronald Gilligan
Sgt. Rodney C. Gillis
Laura Gilly
Lt. John F. Ginley
Jeffrey Giordano
John Giordano
Donna Marie Giordano
Steven A. Giorgetti
Martin Giovinazzo
Kum-Kum Girolamo
Salvatore Gitto
Cynthia Giugliano
Mon Gjonbalaj
Dianne Gladstone
Keith Alexander Glascoe
Thomas I. Glasser
Harry Glenn
Steven Lawrence Glick
Barry H. Glick
John T. Gnazzo
William (Bill) Robert Godshalk
Michael Gogliormella
Brian Fredric Goldberg
Jeffrey Grant Goldflam
Michelle Herman Goldstein
Monica Goldstein
Steven Goldstein
Andrew H. Golkin
Dennis James Gomes
Jose Bienvenido Gomez
Manuel Gomez
Enrique Antonio Gomez
Wilder Gomez
Jenine Gonzalez
Joel Guevara Gonzalez
Rosa J. Gonzalez
Mauricio Gonzalez
Calvin J. Gooding
Harry Goody
Kiran Reddy Gopu
Catherine Carmen Gorayeb
Kerene Gordon
Sebastian Gorki
Kieran Gorman
Thomas E. Gorman
Michael Edward Gould
Yugi Goya
Jon Richard Grabowski
Christopher Michael Grady
Edwin John Graf
David M. Graifman
Gilbert Granados
Elvira Granitto
Winston Arthur Grant
Christopher Stewart Gray
James Michael Gray
Linda Mair Grayling
Timothy Grazioso
John Michael Grazioso
Wade Brian Green
Derrick Arthur Green
Elaine Myra Greenberg
Gayle R. Greene
James Arthur Greenleaf
Eileen Marsha Greenstein
Elizabeth (Lisa) Martin Gregg
Donald H. Gregory
Florence M. Gregory
Denise Gregory
Pedro (David) Grehan
John M. Griffin
Tawanna Griffin
Joan D. Griffith
Warren Grifka
Ramon Grijalvo
Joseph F. Grillo
David Grimner
Kenneth Grouzalis
Joseph Grzelak
Matthew J. Grzymalski
Robert Joseph Gschaar
Liming (Michael) Gu
Jose A. Guadalupe
Yan Zhu (Cindy) Guan
Geoffrey E. Guja
Lt. Joseph Gullickson
Babita Guman
Douglas B. Gurian
Philip T. Guza
Barbara Guzzardo
Peter Gyulavary
Gary Robert Haag
Andrea Lyn Haberman
Barbara M. Habib
Philip Haentzler
Nizam A. Hafiz
Karen Hagerty
Steven Hagis
Mary Lou Hague
David Halderman
Maile Rachel Hale
Richard Hall
Vaswald George Hall
Robert John Halligan
Lt. Vincent Gerard Halloran
James D. Halvorson
Mohammad Salman Hamdani
Felicia Hamilton
Robert Hamilton
Frederic Kim Han
Christopher James Hanley
Sean Hanley
Valerie Joan Hanna
Thomas Hannafin
Kevin James Hannaford
Michael L. Hannan
Dana Hannon
Vassilios G. Haramis
James A. Haran
Jeffrey P. Hardy
Timothy John Hargrave
Daniel Harlin
Frances Haros
Lt. Harvey L. Harrell
Lt. Stephen Gary Harrell
Stewart D. Harris
Aisha Harris
John Patrick Hart
John Clinton Hartz
Emeric J. Harvey
Capt. Thomas Theodore Haskell
Timothy Haskell
Joseph John Hasson
Capt. Terence S. Hatton
Leonard William Hatton
Michael Helmut Haub
Timothy Aaron Haviland
Donald G. Havlish
Anthony Hawkins
Nobuhiro Hayatsu
Philip Hayes
William Ward Haynes
Scott Hazelcorn
Lt. Michael K. Healey
Roberta Bernstein Heber
Charles Francis Xavier Heeran
John Heffernan
Howard Joseph Heller
JoAnn L. Heltibridle
Mark F. Hemschoot
Ronnie Lee Henderson
Janet Hendricks
Brian Hennessey
Michelle Marie Henrique
Joseph P. Henry
William Henry
John Henwood
Robert Allan Hepburn
Mary (Molly) Herencia
Lindsay Coates Herkness
Harvey Robert Hermer
Claribel Hernandez
Norberto Hernandez
Raul Hernandez
Gary Herold
Jeffrey A. Hersch
Thomas Hetzel
Capt. Brian Hickey
Ysidro Hidalgo-Tejada
Lt. Timothy Higgins
Robert D. Higley
Todd Russell Hill
Clara Victorine Hinds
Neal Hinds
Mark D. Hindy
Richard Bruce Van Hine
Katsuyuki Hirai
Heather Malia Ho
Tara Yvette Hobbs
Thomas A. Hobbs
James L. Hobin
Robert Wayne Hobson
DaJuan Hodges
Ronald George Hoerner
Patrick Aloysius Hoey
Marcia Hoffman
Stephen G. Hoffman
Frederick J. Hoffmann
Michele L. Hoffmann
Judith Florence Hofmiller
Thomas Warren Hohlweck
Jonathan R. Hohmann
Joseph Francis Holland
John Holland
Elizabeth Holmes
Thomas P. Holohan
Bradley Hoorn
James P. Hopper
Montgomery McCullough Hord
Michael Horn
Matthew D. Horning
Robert L. Horohoe
Aaron Horwitz
Charles J. Houston
Uhuru G. Houston
George Howard
Michael C. Howell
Steven L. Howell
Jennifer L. Howley
Milagros 'Millie' Hromada
Marian Hrycak
Stephen Huczko
Kris R. Hughes
Melissa Harrington Hughes
Thomas F. Hughes
Timothy Robert Hughes
Paul R. Hughes
Robert T. 'Bobby' Hughes
Susan Huie
Mychal Lamar Hulse
William C. Hunt
Joseph G. Hunter
Robert Hussa
Capt. Walter Hynes
Thomas E. Hynes
Joseph Anthony Ianelli
Zuhtu Ibis
Jonathan Lee Ielpi
Michael Patrick Iken
Daniel Ilkanayev
Capt. Frederick Ill
Abraham Nethanel Ilowitz
Anthony P. Infante
Louis S. Inghilterra
Christopher N. Ingrassia
Paul Innella
Stephanie V. Irby
Douglas Irgang
Todd A. Isaac
Erik Hans Isbrandtsen
Taizo Ishikawa
Aram Iskenderian
John Iskyan
Kazushige Ito
Aleksandr Valeryerich Ivantsov
Virginia Jablonski
Brooke Alexandra Jackman
Michael Grady Jacobs
Aaron Jacobs
Jason Kyle Jacobs
Ariel Louis Jacobs
Steven A. Jacobson
Ricknauth Jaggernauth
Jake Denis Jagoda
Yudh V.S. Jain
Maria Jakubiak
Gricelda E. James
Ernest James
Mark Jardim
Mohammed Jawara
Francois Jean-Pierre
Maxima Jean-Pierre
Paul E. Jeffers
Joseph Jenkins
Alan K. Jensen
Prem N. Jerath
Farah Jeudy
Hweidar Jian
Eliezer Jimenez
Luis Jimenez
Nicholas John
Charles Gregory John
Scott M. Johnson
LaShawana Johnson
William Johnston
Arthur Joseph Jones
Donald W. Jones
Allison Horstmann Jones
Brian L. Jones
Christopher D. Jones
Donald T. Jones
Linda Jones
Mary S. Jones
Andrew Jordan
Robert Thomas Jordan
Ingeborg Joseph
Stephen Joseph
Karl Henri Joseph
Albert Joseph
Jane Eileen Josiah
Lt. Anthony Jovic
Angel Luis Juarbe
Karen Susan Juday
The Rev. Mychal Judge
Paul W. Jurgens
Thomas Edward Jurgens
Kacinga Kabeya
Shashi Kiran Lakshmikantha Kadaba
Gavkharoy Mukhometovna Kamardinova
Shari Kandell
Howard Lee Kane
Jennifer Lynn Kane
Vincent D. Kane
Joon Koo Kang
Sheldon R. Kanter
Deborah H. Kaplan
Alvin Peter Kappelmann
Charles Karczewski
William A. Karnes
Douglas G. Karpiloff
Charles L. Kasper
Andrew Kates
John Katsimatides
Sgt. Robert Kaulfers
Don Jerome Kauth
Hideya Kawauchi
Edward T. Keane
Richard M. Keane
Lisa Kearney-Griffin
Karol Ann Keasler
Paul Hanlon Keating
Leo Russell Keene
Joseph J. Keller
Peter Rodney Kellerman
Joseph P. Kellett
Frederick H. Kelley
Maurice Patrick Kelly
Thomas W. Kelly
Timothy C. Kelly
James Joseph Kelly
Joseph A. Kelly
Richard John Kelly
Thomas Michael Kelly
Thomas Richard Kelly
William Hill Kelly
Robert C. Kennedy
Thomas J. Kennedy
John Keohane
Lt. Ronald T. Kerwin
Howard L. Kestenbaum
Douglas D. Ketcham
Ruth E. Ketler
Boris Khalif
Sarah Khan
Taimour Firaz Khan
Rajesh Khandelwal
SeiLai Khoo
Michael Kiefer
Satoshi Kikuchihara








Victims and Heroes who died at World Trade Center
Andrew Jay-Hoon Kim
Lawrence Don Kim
Mary Jo Kimelman
Andrew Marshall King
Lucille T. King
Robert King
Lisa M. King-Johnson
Takashi Kinoshita
Chris Michael Kirby
Howard (Barry) Kirschbaum
Glenn Davis Kirwin
Richard J. Klares
Peter A. Klein
Alan D. Kleinberg
Karen J. Klitzman
Ronald Philip Kloepfer
Yevgeny Kniazev
Thomas Patrick Knox
Andrew Knox
Rebecca Lee Koborie
Deborah Kobus
Gary Edward Koecheler
Frank J. Koestner
Ryan Kohart
Vanessa Lynn Kolpak
Irina Kolpakova
Suzanne Kondratenko
Abdoulaye Kone
Bon-seok Koo
Dorota Kopiczko
Scott Kopytko
Bojan Kostic
Danielle Kousoulis
John J. Kren
William Krukowski
Lyudmila Ksido
Shekhar Kumar
Kenneth Kumpel
Frederick Kuo
Patricia Kuras
Nauka Kushitani
Thomas Joseph Kuveikis
Victor Kwarkye
Kui Fai Kwok
Angela R. Kyte
Amarnauth Lachhman
Andrew LaCorte
Ganesh Ladkat
James P. Ladley
Daniel M. Van Laere
Joseph A. Lafalce
Jeanette LaFond-Menichino
David LaForge
Michael Patrick LaForte
Alan Lafrance
Juan Lafuente
Neil K. Lai
Vincent A. Laieta
William David Lake
Franco Lalama
Chow Kwan Lam
Stephen LaMantia
Amy Hope Lamonsoff
Robert T. Lane
Brendan M. Lang
Rosanne P. Lang
Vanessa Langer
Mary Lou Langley
Peter J. Langone
Thomas Langone
Michele B. Lanza
Ruth Sheila Lapin
Carol Ann LaPlante
Ingeborg Astrid Desiree Lariby
Robin Larkey
Christopher Randall Larrabee
Hamidou S. Larry
Scott Larsen
John Adam Larson
Gary E. Lasko
Nicholas C. Lassman
Paul Laszczynski
Jeffrey Latouche
Cristina de Laura
Oscar de Laura
Charles Laurencin
Stephen James Lauria
Maria Lavache
Denis F. Lavelle
Jeannine M. LaVerde
Anna A. Laverty
Steven Lawn
Robert A. Lawrence
Nathaniel Lawson
Eugen Lazar
James Patrick Leahy
Lt. Joseph Gerard Leavey
Neil Leavy
Leon Lebor
Kenneth Charles Ledee
Alan J. Lederman
Elena Ledesma
Alexis Leduc
Hyun-joon (Paul) Lee
Jong-min Lee
Myung-woo Lee
David S. Lee
Linda C. Lee
Gary H. Lee
Juanita Lee
Lorraine Lee
Richard Y.C. Lee
Yang Der Lee
Kathryn Blair Lee
Stuart (Soo-Jin) Lee
Stephen Lefkowitz
Adriana Legro
Edward J. Lehman
Eric Andrew Lehrfeld
David Ralph Leistman
David Prudencio LeMagne
Joseph A. Lenihan
John J. Lennon
John Robinson Lenoir
Jorge Luis Leon
Matthew Gerard Leonard
Michael Lepore
Charles Antoine Lesperance
Jeffrey Earle LeVeen
John D. Levi
Neil D. Levin
Alisha Caren Levin
Robert Levine
Robert M. Levine
Shai Levinhar
Adam J. Lewis
Margaret Susan Lewis
Ye Wei Liang
Orasri Liangthanasarn
Daniel F. Libretti
Ralph M. Licciardi
Edward Lichtschein
Steven B. Lillianthal
Carlos R. Lillo
Craig Damian Lilore
Arnold A. Lim
Darya Lin
Wei Rong Lin
Nickie L. Lindo
Thomas V. Linehan
Robert Thomas Linnane
Alan Linton
Diane Theresa Lipari
Kenneth P. Lira
Francisco Alberto Liriano
Lorraine Lisi
Paul Lisson
Vincent Litto
Ming-Hao Liu
Nancy Liz
Harold Lizcano
Martin Lizzul
George A. Llanes
Elizabeth Claire Logler
Catherine Lisa Loguidice
Jerome Robert Lohez
Michael W. Lomax
Laura M. Longing
Salvatore P. Lopes
Luis Lopez
Manuel L. Lopez
Daniel Lopez
George Lopez
Joseph Lostrangio
Chet Louie
Stuart Seid Louis
Joseph Lovero
Michael W. Lowe
Garry Lozier
John Peter Lozowsky
Charles Peter Lucania
Edward (Ted) H. Luckett
Mark G. Ludvigsen
Lee Charles Ludwig
Sean Thomas Lugano
Daniel Lugo
Marie Lukas
William Lum
Michael P. Lunden
Christopher Lunder
Anthony Luparello
Gary Lutnick
Linda Luzzicone
Alexander Lygin
James Francis Lynch
Farrell Peter Lynch
Louise A. Lynch
Michael Lynch
Michael F. Lynch
Michael Francis Lynch
Richard Dennis Lynch
Robert H. Lynch
Sean Patrick Lynch
Sean Lynch
Monica Lyons
Michael J. Lyons
Patrick Lyons
Robert Francis Mace
Jan Maciejewski
Catherine Fairfax MacRae
Richard B. Madden
Simon Maddison
Noell Maerz
Jeannieann Maffeo
Joseph Maffeo
Jay Robert Magazine
Brian Magee
Charles Wilson Magee
Joseph Maggitti
Ronald E. Magnuson
Daniel L. Maher
Thomas Anthony Mahon
William Mahoney
Joseph Maio
Takashi Makimoto
Abdu Malahi
Debora Maldonado
Myrna T. Maldonado-Agosto
Alfred R. Maler
Gregory James Malone
Edward Francis (Teddy) Maloney
Joseph E. Maloney
Gene E. Maloy
Christian Maltby
Francisco Miguel (Frank) Mancini
Joseph Mangano
Sara Elizabeth Manley
Debra M. Mannetta
Terence J. Manning
Marion Victoria (vickie) Manning
James Maounis
Joseph Ross Marchbanks
Peter Edward Mardikian
Edward Joseph Mardovich
Lt. Charles Joseph Margiotta
Kenneth Joseph Marino
Lester Vincent Marino
Vita Marino
Kevin D. Marlo
Jose J. Marrero
John Marshall
James Martello
Michael A. Marti
Lt. Peter Martin
William J. Martin
Brian E. Martineau
Betsy Martinez
Edward J. Martinez
Jose Angel Martinez
Robert Gabriel Martinez
Lizie Martinez-Calderon
Francis (Frank) Albert De Martini
Lt. Paul Richard Martini
Joseph A. Mascali
Bernard Mascarenhas
Stephen F. Masi
Nicholas G. Massa
Patricia A. Massari
Michael Massaroli
Philip W. Mastrandrea
Rudolph Mastrocinque
Joseph Mathai
Charles William Mathers
William A. Mathesen
Marcello Matricciano
Margaret Elaine Mattic
Robert D. Mattson
Walter Matuza
Charles A. (Chuck) Mauro
Charles J. Mauro
Dorothy Mauro
Nancy T. Mauro
Tyrone May
Keithroy Maynard
Robert J. Mayo
Kathy Nancy Mazza-Delosh
Edward Mazzella
Jennifer Mazzotta
Kaaria Mbaya
James J. McAlary
Brian McAleese
Patricia A. McAneney
Colin Richard McArthur
John McAvoy
Kenneth M. McBrayer
Brendan McCabe
Michael J. McCabe
Thomas McCann
Justin McCarthy
Kevin M. McCarthy
Michael Desmond McCarthy
Robert Garvin McCarthy
Stanley McCaskill
Katie Marie McCloskey
Tara McCloud-Gray
Charles Austin McCrann
Tonyell McDay
Matthew T. McDermott
Joseph P. McDonald
Brian G. McDonnell
Michael McDonnell
John F. McDowell
Eamon J. McEneaney
John Thomas McErlean
Daniel F. McGinley
Mark Ryan McGinly
Lt. William E. McGinn
Thomas H. McGinnis
Michael Gregory McGinty
Ann McGovern
Scott Martin McGovern
William J. McGovern
Stacey S. McGowan
Francis Noel McGuinn
Patrick J. McGuire
Thomas M. McHale
Keith McHeffey
Denis J. McHugh
Dennis P. McHugh
Michael Edward McHugh
Ann M. McHugh
Robert G. McIlvaine
Donald James McIntyre
Stephanie McKenna
Barry J. McKeon
Evelyn C. McKinnedy
Darryl Leron McKinney
Robert C. McLaughlin
George Patrick McLaughlin
Gavin McMahon
Robert Dismas McMahon
Edmund M. McNally
Daniel McNeal
Walter Arthur McNeil
Jaselliny McNish
Christine Sheila McNulty
Sean Peter McNulty
Robert William McPadden
Terence A. McShane
Timothy Patrick McSweeney
Martin E. McWilliams
Rocco A. Medaglia
Abigail Medina
Ana Iris Medina
Deborah Medwig
William J. Meehan
Damian Meehan
Alok Kumar Mehta
Raymond Meisenheimer
Manuel Emilio Mejia
Eskedar Melaku
Antonio Melendez
Mary Melendez
Yelena Melnichenko
Stuart Todd Meltzer
Diarelia Jovannah Mena
Charles Mendez
Lizette Mendoza
Shevonne Mentis
Steve Mercado
Wesley Mercer
Ralph Joseph Mercurio
Alan H. Merdinger
George C. Merino
Yamel Merino
George Merkouris
Deborah Merrick
Raymond J. Metz
Jill A. Metzler
David Robert Meyer
Nurul Huq Miah
William Edward Micciulli
Martin Paul Michelstein
Luis Clodoaldo Revilla Mier
Peter T. Milano
Gregory Milanowycz
Lukasz T. Milewski
Corey Peter Miller
Henry Miller
Phillip D. Miller
Craig James Miller
Douglas C. Miller
Michael Matthew Miller
Robert C. Miller
Robert Alan Miller
Joel Miller
Benjamin Millman
Charles M. Mills
Ronald Keith Milstein
Robert Minara
William G. Minardi
Louis Joseph Minervino
Thomas Mingione
Wilbert Miraille
Domenick Mircovich
Rajesh A. Mirpuri
Joseph Mistrulli
Susan Miszkowicz
Lt. Paul Thomas Mitchell
Richard Miuccio
Frank V. Moccia
Capt. Louis Joseph Modafferi
Boyie Mohammed
Lt. Dennis Mojica
Manuel Mojica
Manuel Dejesus Molina
Fernando Jimenez Molina
Kleber Rolando Molina
Carl Molinaro
Justin J. Molisani
Brian Patrick Monaghan
Franklin Monahan
John Gerard Monahan
Kristen Montanaro
Craig D. Montano
Michael Montesi
Cheryl Ann Monyak
Capt. Thomas Moody
Sharon Moore
Krishna Moorthy
Paula Morales
Abner Morales
Carlos Morales
Luis Morales
John Moran
John Christopher Moran
Kathleen Moran
Lindsay S. Morehouse
George Morell
Steven P. Morello
Vincent S. Morello
Arturo Alva Moreno
Yvette Nicole Moreno
Dorothy Morgan
Richard Morgan
Nancy Morgenstern
Sanae Mori
Blanca Morocho
Leonel Morocho
Dennis G. Moroney
Lynne Irene Morris
Seth A. Morris
Stephen Philip Morris
Christopher M. Morrison
Ferdinand V. Morrone
William David Moskal
Manuel Da Mota
Marco Motroni
Iouri A. Mouchinski
Jude J. Moussa
Peter C. Moutos
Damion Mowatt
Christopher Mozzillo
Stephen V. Mulderry
Richard Muldowney
Michael D. Mullan
Dennis Michael Mulligan
Peter James Mulligan
Michael Joseph Mullin
James Donald Munhall
Nancy Muniz
Carlos Mario Munoz
Francisco Munoz
Theresa (Terry) Munson
Robert M. Murach
Cesar Augusto Murillo
Marc A. Murolo
Robert Eddie Murphy
Brian Joseph Murphy
Christopher W. Murphy
Edward C. Murphy
James F. Murphy
James Thomas Murphy
Kevin James Murphy
Patrick Sean Murphy
Lt. Raymond E. Murphy
Charles Murphy
Susan D. Murray
John Joseph Murray
John Joseph Murray
Valerie Victoria Murray
Richard Todd Myhre
Lt. Robert B. Nagel
Takuya Nakamura
Alexander J.R. Napier
Frank Joseph Naples
John Napolitano
Catherine A. Nardella
Mario Nardone
Manika Narula
Narender Nath
Karen S. Navarro
Joseph M. Navas
Francis J. Nazario
Glenroy Neblett
Marcus R. Neblett
Jerome O. Nedd
Laurence Nedell
Luke G. Nee
Pete Negron
Ann Nicole Nelson
David William Nelson
James Nelson
Michele Ann Nelson
Peter Allen Nelson
Oscar Nesbitt
Gerard Terence Nevins
Christopher Newton-Carter
Kapinga Ngalula
Nancy Yuen Ngo
Jody Tepedino Nichilo
Martin Niederer
Alfonse J. Niedermeyer
Frank John Niestadt
Gloria Nieves
Juan Nieves
Troy Edward Nilsen
Paul R. Nimbley
John Ballantine Niven
Katherine (Katie) McGarry Noack
Curtis Terrence Noel
Daniel R. Nolan
Robert Walter Noonan
Daniela R. Notaro
Brian Novotny
Soichi Numata
Jose R. Nunez
Brian Felix Nunez
Jeffrey Nussbaum
James A. Oakley
Dennis O'Berg
Timothy Michael O'Brien
James P. O'Brien
Scott J. O'Brien
Michael O'Brien
Lt. Daniel O'Callaghan
Richard J. O'Connor
Dennis J. O'Connor
Diana J. O'Connor
Keith K. O'Connor
Amy O'Doherty
Marni Pont O'Doherty
Douglas Oelschlager
Takashi Ogawa
Albert Ogletree
Philip Paul Ognibene
James Andrew O'Grady
Joseph J. Ogren
Lt. Thomas O'Hagan
Samuel Oitice
Patrick O'Keefe
Capt. William O'Keefe
Gerald Michael Olcott
Gerald O'Leary
Christine Anne Olender
Elsy Carolina Osorio Oliva
Linda Mary Oliva
Edward K. Oliver
Leah E. Oliver
Eric T. Olsen
Jeffrey James Olsen
Steven John Olson
Maureen L. Olson
Matthew Timothy O'Mahony
Toshihiro Onda
Seamus L. Oneal
John P. O'Neill
Sean Gordon Corbett O'Neill
Peter J. O'Neill
Michael C. Opperman
Christopher Orgielewicz
Margaret Orloske
Virginia A. Ormiston
Kevin O'Rourke
Juan Romero Orozco
Ronald Orsini
Peter K. Ortale
Emilio (Peter) Ortiz
Pablo Ortiz
David Ortiz
Paul Ortiz
Sonia Ortiz
Alexander Ortiz
Masaru Ose
Robert W. O'Shea
Patrick J. O'Shea
James Robert Ostrowski
Timothy O'Sullivan
Jason Douglas Oswald
Michael Otten








Victims and Heroes who died at World Trade Center
Isidro Ottenwalder
Michael Chung Ou
Todd Joseph Ouida
Jesus Ovalles
Peter J. Owens
Adianes Oyola
Angel M. Pabon
Israel Pabon
Roland Pacheco
Michael Benjamin Packer
Deepa K. Pakkala
Jeffrey Matthew Palazzo
Thomas Anthony Palazzo
Richard (Rico) Palazzolo
Orio Joseph Palmer
Frank A. Palombo
Alan N. Palumbo
Christopher M. Panatier
Dominique Pandolfo
Paul Pansini
John M. Paolillo
Edward J. Papa
Salvatore Papasso
James N. Pappageorge
Vinod K. Parakat
Vijayashanker Paramsothy
Nitin Ramesh Parandkar
Hardai (Casey) Parbhu
James Wendell Parham
Debra (Debbie) Paris
George Paris
Gye-Hyong Park
Philip L. Parker
Michael A. Parkes
Robert Emmett Parks
Hasmukhrai Chuckulal Parmar
Robert Parro
Diane Marie Moore Parsons
Leobardo Lopez Pascual
Michael J. Pascuma
Jerrold H. Paskins
Horace Robert Passananti
Suzanne H. Passaro
Victor Antonio Martinez Pastrana
Manish K. Patel
Avnish Ramanbhai Patel
Dipti Patel
Steven B. Paterson
James Matthew Patrick
Manuel Patrocino
Bernard E. Patterson
Cira Marie Patti
Robert Edward Pattison
James R. Paul
Patrice Paz
Sharon Cristina Millan Paz
Victor Paz-Gutierrez
Stacey L. Peak
Richard Allen Pearlman
Durrell Pearsall
Thomas E. Pedicini
Todd D. Pelino
Michel Adrian Pelletier
Anthony Peluso
Angel Ramon Pena
Richard Al Penny
Salvatore F. Pepe
Carl Allen Peralta
Robert David Peraza
Jon A. Perconti
Alejo Perez
Angela Susan Perez
Angel Perez
Ivan Perez
Nancy E. Perez
Anthony Perez
Joseph John Perroncino
Edward J. Perrotta
Lt. Glenn C. Perry
Emelda Perry
John William Perry
Franklin Allan Pershep
Daniel Pesce
Michael J. Pescherine
Davin Peterson
William Russel Peterson
Mark Petrocelli
Lt. Philip S. Petti
Glen Kerrin Pettit
Dominick Pezzulo
Kaleen E. Pezzuti
Lt. Kevin Pfeifer
Tu-Anh Pham
Lt. Kenneth John Phelan
Michael V. San Phillip
Eugenia Piantieri
Ludwig John Picarro
Matthew Picerno
Joseph O. Pick
Christopher Pickford
Dennis J. Pierce
Joseph A. Della Pietra
Bernard T. Pietronico
Nicholas P. Pietrunti
Theodoros Pigis
Susan Elizabeth Ancona Pinto
Joseph Piskadlo
Christopher Todd Pitman
Josh Michael Piver
Joseph Plumitallo
John M. Pocher
William Howard Pohlmann
Laurence M. Polatsch
Thomas H. Polhemus
Steve Pollicino
Susan M. Pollio
Joshua Poptean
Giovanna Porras
Anthony Portillo
James Edward Potorti
Daphne Pouletsos
Stephen E. Poulos
Richard Poulos
Shawn Edward Powell
Brandon Jerome Powell
Tony Pratt
Gregory M. Preziose
Wanda Ivelisse Prince
Vincent Princiotta
Kevin Prior
Everett Martin (Marty) Proctor
Carrie B. Progen
David Lee Pruim
Richard Prunty
John F. Puckett
Robert D. Pugliese
Edward F. Pullis
Patricia Ann Puma
Hemanth Kumar Puttur
Edward R. Pykon
Christopher Quackenbush
Lars Peter Qualben
Lincoln Quappe
Beth Ann Quigley
Lt. Michael Quilty
Ricardo Quinn
James Francis Quinn
Carol Rabalais
Christopher Peter A. Racaniello
Leonard Ragaglia
Eugene J. Raggio
Laura Marie Ragonese-Snik
Michael Ragusa
Peter F. Raimondi
Harry A. Raines
Ehtesham U. Raja
Valsa Raju
Edward Rall
Lukas (Luke) Rambousek
Julio Fernandez Ramirez
Maria Isabel Ramirez
Harry Ramos
Vishnoo Ramsaroop
Lorenzo Ramzey
A. Todd Rancke
Adam David Rand
Jonathan C. Randall
Srinivasa Shreyas Ranganath
Anne Rose T. Ransom
Faina Rapoport
Robert Arthur Rasmussen
Amenia Rasool
Roger Mark Rasweiler
David Alan James Rathkey
William Ralph Raub
Gerard Rauzi
Alexey Razuvaev
Gregory Reda
Sarah Prothero Redheffer
Michele Reed
Judith A. Reese
Donald J. Regan
Lt. Robert M. Regan
Thomas M. Regan
Christian Michael Otto Regenhard
Howard Reich
Gregg Reidy
Kevin O. Reilly
James Brian Reilly
Timothy E. Reilly
Joseph Reina
Thomas Barnes Reinig
Frank B. Reisman
Joshua Scott Reiss
Karen Renda
John Armand Reo
Richard Rescorla
John Thomas Resta
Sylvia San Pio Resta
Eduvigis (Eddie) Reyes
Bruce A. Reynolds
John Frederick Rhodes
Francis S. Riccardelli
Rudolph N. Riccio
AnnMarie (Davi) Riccoboni
David Rice
Eileen Mary Rice
Kenneth F. Rice
Lt. Vernon Allan Richard
Michael Richards
Claude D. Richards
Gregory Richards
Venesha O. Richards
James C. Riches
Alan Jay Richman
John M. Rigo
Theresa (Ginger) Risco
Rose Mary Riso
Moises N. Rivas
Joseph Rivelli
Isaias Rivera
Linda Rivera
Juan William Rivera
Carmen A. Rivera
David E. Rivers
Joseph R. Riverso
Paul Rizza
John Frank Rizzo
Stephen Louis Roach
Joseph Roberto
Leo A. Roberts
Michael Roberts
Michael Edward Roberts
Donald Walter Robertson
Jeffrey Robinson
Catherina Robinson
Michell Lee Robotham
Donald Robson
Antonio Augusto Tome Rocha
Raymond J. Rocha
Laura Rockefeller
John M. Rodak
Antonio Jose Carrusca Rodrigues
Carmen Milagros Rodriguez
Anthony Rodriguez
Marsha A. Rodriguez
Richard Rodriguez
Gregory E. Rodriguez
David B. Rodriguez-Vargas
Matthew Rogan
Karlie Barbara Rogers
Scott Rohner
Keith Roma
Joseph M. Romagnolo
Elvin Santiago Romero
Efrain Franco Romero
James A. Romito
Sean Rooney
Eric Thomas Ropiteau
Aida Rosario
Angela Rosario
Fitzroy St. Rose
Mark H. Rosen
Brooke David Rosenbaum
Linda Rosenbaum
Sheryl Lynn Rosenbaum
Lloyd D. Rosenberg
Mark Louis Rosenberg
Andrew I. Rosenblum
Joshua M. Rosenblum
Joshua A. Rosenthal
Richard David Rosenthal
Daniel Rossetti
Norman Rossinow
Nicholas P. Rossomando
Michael Craig Rothberg
Donna Marie Rothenberg
Nick Rowe
Timothy A. Roy
Paul G. Ruback
Ronald J. Ruben
Joanne Rubino
David Michael Ruddle
Bart Joseph Ruggiere
Susan Ann Ruggiero
Adam K. Ruhalter
Gilbert Ruiz
Stephen P. Russell
Steven Harris Russin
Lt. Michael Thomas Russo
Wayne Alan Russo
Edward Ryan
John J. Ryan
Jonathan Stephan Ryan
Matthew Lancelot Ryan
Kristin A. Irvine Ryan
Tatiana Ryjova
Christina Sunga Ryook
Thierry Saada
Jason E. Sabbag
Thomas E. Sabella
Scott Saber
Joseph Sacerdote
Mohammad Ali Sadeque
Francis J. Sadocha
Jude Elias Safi
Brock Joel Safronoff
Edward Saiya
John Patrick Salamone
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Juan Salas
Esmerlin Salcedo
John Salvatore Salerno
Richard L. Salinardi
Wayne John Saloman
Nolbert Salomon
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Frank Salvaterra
Paul R. Salvio
Samuel R. Salvo
Carlos Samaniego
Rena Sam-Dinnoo
James Kenneth Samuel
Hugo Sanay-Perafiel
Alva Jeffries Sanchez
Erick Sanchez
Jacquelyn P. Sanchez
Eric Sand
Stacey Leigh Sanders
Herman Sandler
James Sands
Ayleen J. Santiago
Kirsten Santiago
Maria Theresa Santillan
Susan G. Santo
Christopher Santora
John Santore
Mario L. Santoro
Rafael Humberto Santos
Rufino Conrado F. (Roy) Santos
Kalyan K. Sarkar
Chapelle Sarker
Paul F. Sarle
Deepika Kumar Sattaluri
Gregory Thomas Saucedo
Susan Sauer
Anthony Savas
Vladimir Savinkin
John Sbarbaro
Robert L. Scandole
Michelle Scarpitta
Dennis Scauso
John A. Schardt
John G. Scharf
Fred Claude Scheffold
Angela Susan Scheinberg
Scott M. Schertzer
Sean Schielke
Steven Francis Schlag
Jon S. Schlissel
Karen Helene Schmidt
Ian Schneider
Thomas G. Schoales
Marisa Di Nardo Schorpp
Frank G. Schott
Gerard P. Schrang
Jeffrey Schreier
John T. Schroeder
Susan Lee Kennedy Schuler
Edward W. Schunk
Mark E. Schurmeier
John Schwartz
Clarin Shellie Schwartz
Mark Schwartz
Adriane Victoria Scibetta
Raphael Scorca
Randolph Scott
Christopher J. Scudder
Arthur Warren Scullin
Michael Seaman
Margaret Seeliger
Carlos Segarra
Anthony Segarra
Jason Sekzer
Matthew Carmen Sellitto
Howard Selwyn
Larry John Senko
Arturo Angelo Sereno
Frankie Serrano
Alena Sesinova
Adele Sessa
Sita Nermalla Sewnarine
Karen Lynn Seymour-Dietrich
Davis (Deeg) Sezna
Thomas Joseph Sgroi
Jayesh Shah
Khalid M. Shahid
Mohammed Shajahan
Gary Shamay
Earl Richard Shanahan
Shiv Shankar
Neil G. Shastri
Kathryn Anne Shatzoff
Barbara A. Shaw
Jeffrey J. Shaw
Robert J. Shay
Daniel James Shea
Joseph Patrick Shea
Linda Sheehan
Hagay Shefi
John Anthony Sherry
Atsushi Shiratori
Thomas Shubert
Mark Shulman
See-Wong Shum
Allan Shwartzstein
Johanna Sigmund
Dianne T. Signer
Gregory Sikorsky
Stephen Gerard Siller
David Silver
Craig A. Silverstein
Nasima H. Simjee
Bruce Edward Simmons
Arthur Simon
Paul Joseph Simon
Kenneth Alan Simon
Michael John Simon
Marianne Simone
Barry Simowitz
Jeff Simpson
Roshan R. (Sean) Singh
Khamladai K. (Khami) Singh
Thomas E. Sinton
Peter A. Siracuse
Muriel F. Siskopoulos
Joseph M. Sisolak
John P. Skala
Francis J. Skidmore
Toyena Corliss Skinner
Paul A. Skrzypek
Christopher Paul Slattery
Vincent R. Slavin
Robert Sliwak
Paul K. Sloan
Stanley S. Smagala
Wendy L. Small
Catherine T. Smith
Karl Trumbull Smith
Daniel Laurence Smith
George Eric Smith
James G. Smith
Joyce Smith
Kevin Smith
Leon Smith
Moira Smith
Rosemary A. Smith
Sandra Fajardo Smith
Jeffrey Randall Smith
Bonnie S. Smithwick
Rochelle Monique Snell
Leonard J. Snyder
Astrid Elizabeth Sohan
Sushil Solanki
Ruben Solares
Naomi Leah Solomon
Daniel W. Song
Michael C. Sorresse
Fabian Soto
Timothy P. Soulas
Gregory T. Spagnoletti
Donald F. Spampinato
Thomas Sparacio
John Anthony Spataro
Robert W. Spear
Maynard S. Spence
George E. Spencer
Robert Andrew Spencer
Mary Rubina Sperando
Frank J. Spinelli
William E. Spitz
Joseph P. Spor
Klaus Johannes Sprockamp
Saranya Srinuan
Michael F. Stabile
Lawrence T. Stack
Capt. Timothy Stackpole
Richard James Stadelberger
Eric A. Stahlman
Gregory M. Stajk
Corina Stan
Alexandru Liviu Stan
Mary D. Stanley
Joyce Stanton
Patricia Stanton
Anthony M. Starita
Jeffrey Stark
Derek James Statkevicus
Craig William Staub
William V. Steckman
Eric Thomas Steen
William R. Steiner
Alexander Robbins Steinman
Andrew Stergiopoulos
Andrew Stern
Martha Jane Stevens
Richard H. Stewart
Michael James Stewart
Sanford M. Stoller
Lonny J. Stone
Jimmy Nevill Storey
Timothy Stout
Thomas S. Strada
James J. Straine
Edward W. Straub
George Strauch
Edward T. Strauss
Steven R. Strauss
Steven F. Strobert
Walwyn W. Stuart
Benjamin Suarez
David S. Suarez
Ramon Suarez
Yoichi Sugiyama
William Christopher Sugra
Daniel Suhr
David Marc Sullins
Lt. Christopher P. Sullivan
Patrick Sullivan
Thomas Sullivan
Hilario Soriano (Larry) Sumaya
James Joseph Suozzo
Colleen Supinski
Robert Sutcliffe
Selina Sutter
Claudia Suzette Sutton
John F. Swaine
Kristine M. Swearson
Brian Edward Sweeney
Kenneth J. Swensen
Thomas F. Swift
Derek O. Sword
Kevin T. Szocik
Gina Sztejnberg
Norbert P. Szurkowski
Harry Taback
Joann Tabeek
Norma C. Taddei
Michael Taddonio
Keiji Takahashi
Keiichiro Takahashi
Phyllis Gail Talbot
Robert R. Talhami
Sean Patrick Tallon
Paul Talty
Maurita Tam
Rachel Tamares
Hector Tamayo
Michael Andrew Tamuccio
Kenichiro Tanaka
Rhondelle Cherie Tankard
Michael Anthony Tanner
Dennis Gerard Taormina
Kenneth Joseph Tarantino
Allan Tarasiewicz
Ronald Tartaro
Darryl Taylor
Donnie Brooks Taylor
Lorisa Ceylon Taylor
Michael M. Taylor
Paul A. Tegtmeier
Yeshavant Moreshwar Tembe
Anthony Tempesta
Dorothy Temple
Stanley L. Temple
David Tengelin
Brian J. Terrenzi
Lisa Marie Terry
Goumatie T. Thackurdeen
Harshad Sham Thatte
Thomas F. Theurkauf
Lesley Anne Thomas
Brian T. Thompson
Clive Thompson
Glenn Thompson
Perry Anthony Thompson
Vanavah Alexi Thompson
Capt. William Harry Thompson
Nigel Bruce Thompson
Eric Raymond Thorpe
Nichola A. Thorpe
Sal Tieri
John Patrick Tierney
Mary Ellen Tiesi
William R. Tieste
Kenneth F. Tietjen
Stephen Edward Tighe
Scott C. Timmes
Michael E. Tinley
Jennifer M. Tino








Victims and Heroes who died at World Trade Center
Robert Frank Tipaldi
John J. Tipping
David Tirado
Hector Luis Tirado
Michelle Titolo
John J. Tobin
Richard J. Todisco
Vladimir Tomasevic
Stephen K. Tompsett
Thomas Tong
Azucena de la Torre
Luis Eduardo Torres
Doris Torres
Amy E. Toyen
Christopher M. Traina
Daniel Patrick Trant
Abdoul Karim Traore
Walter (Wally) P. Travers
Glenn J. Travers
Felicia Traylor-Bass
Lisa L. Trerotola
Karamo Trerra
Michael Trinidad
Francis Joseph Trombino
Gregory J. Trost
William Tselepis
Zhanetta Tsoy
Michael Patrick Tucker
Lance Richard Tumulty
Ching Ping Tung
Simon James Turner
Donald Joseph Tuzio
Robert T. Twomey
Jennifer Tzemis
John G. Ueltzhoeffer
Tyler V. Ugolyn
Michael A. Uliano
Jonathan J. Uman
Anil Shivhari Umarkar
Allen V. Upton
Diane Maria Urban
John Damien Vaccacio
Bradley H. Vadas
William Valcarcel
Mayra Valdes-Rodriguez
Ivan Vale
Felix Antonio Vale
Santos Valentin
Benito Valentin
Manuel Del Valle
Carlton Francis Valvo
Edward Raymond Vanacore
Jon C. Vandevander
Frederick T. Varacchi
Gopalakrishnan Varadhan
David Vargas
Scott C. Vasel
Santos Vasquez
Azael Ismael Vasquez
Arcangel Vazquez
Peter Anthony Vega
Sankara S. Velamuri
Jorge Velazquez
Lawrence Veling
Anthony M. Ventura
David Vera
Loretta A Vero
Christopher Vialonga
Matthew Gilbert Vianna
Robert A. Vicario
Celeste Torres Victoria
Joanna Vidal
John T. Vigiano
Joseph Vincent Vigiano
Frank J. Vignola
Joseph B. Vilardo
Sergio Villanueva
Chantal Vincelli
Melissa Vincent
Francine A. Virgilio
Lawrence Virgilio
Joseph G. Visciano
Joshua S. Vitale
Maria Percoco Vola
Lynette D. Vosges
Garo H. Voskerijian
Alfred Vukosa


W, Y, Z-names removed. List too long otherwise.

BIG FAT SNIP

ah, the wonders of copy and paste.

this kind of spamming is going to get you banned

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

No. I have Jewish friends who dislike Israel's existence in its present form. But it's too late, and perhaps also too early, to have a united secular Muslim/Jewish Palestine/Israel. So Israel it is. I wish it behaved better.

Hopefully, one day, a just peace. Until then, continuous carnage.

[...]

An eye for an eye will make the world go blind.

An eye for an eye will make the world go blind.

And the way we're going, it's more like fifty eyes for an eye. At least.

*Uses the events of 9/11 to justify hatred against all Arabs*

Wow.

You're a twat.

And the way we're going, it's more like fifty eyes for an eye. At least.

Ergo, 5.7758 more wars (Iran, NK, Syria, Venezuela, Belarus, and a bit of China or Russia) and we'll all be blind.

(Log50 6500000000 ≈ 5.7758.

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

not at all, although you'll find many many people think it is anti-semitism to criticise the state of israel for its policies regarding palestine (which is funny seeing as palestinians, and arabs generally, are semitic peoples as well). the fact is israel is a state, the jews are a religious group that think they are a race. to criticise the actions of a state does not mean you have to hate the 'race' that the state supposedly represents.

Hows this land rightfully Israels. It was palestinian, Israelies just used the Holocaust as an excuse to take land, by force, and the palestinians, who had nothing to do with WW2 suffered. Hows this right?
You cant simply argue, it was Israels land before. The Jews havent been in control of this land for atleast 1500 years. So is it fair to return the land to whom owned it 1500 years ago? I think not.
Please make sure you know what your talking about before you say it.

"In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. Widespread fighting between Jews and Arab civilians soon erupted, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War.

On May 14, 1948, before the expiry of the British Mandate of Palestine at midnight on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed."- Encyclopedia Brittanica

AS you can see, Britian promised the land to 2 different peoples, jew, and arabs, the Jews have been in this land for thousands of years, same with the arabs. As you can see, Israel is a "legal" nation, even the UN agrees. However, Israel was forced to take extra lands after other Arab countries tried to invade, in order to make a buffer.

Israel gives back most of the land that it takes, Israel is a legit country.


Possibly you are the one who does not know what they are talking about :eek:

Wow.

You're a twat.

Suppose I were to tell you that one specific person on that list was the mother of my oldest son, eh?

Anyway, my desire for living in peace and harmony with sunni arabs is about... non-existent.

Suppose I were to tell you that one specific person on that list was the mother of my oldest son, eh?

Anyway, my desire for living in peace and harmony with sunni arabs is about... non-existent.

As much as I feel for your loss, I hasten to point out that with that attitude only more people, both western and Sunni Arab will suffer the pain that you felt at 9/11. You used your loss 9/11 to what appears to justify a hatred of all Arabs.

This is an attitude that, forgetting stinking of racism, clouds our mission. This mission is to destroy terrorists, whether they be Islamic Fundementalists, Irish nationalists, or Chechen terrorists, not Arabs, and not all Arabs are terrorists, not by a long shot.

Again, I reiterate that you have my greatest sympathy, and I am sure that I may say the same of Iraqiya.

no. Israel is a nation like any other, and should not be exempt from judgement only because it is a Jewish nation.

My thoughts exactly. Personally, I have to wonder about a state based on race. No one would support a white state, and rightly so, so what about Israel?

My thoughts exactly. Personally, I have to wonder about a state based on race. No one would support a white state, and rightly so, so what about Israel?

First of all, jews are afforded no more rights in Israel than any other citizen, with the sole exception of how you attain citizenship. Theres two processes, the first one which only applies to Jews (via the Law of Return) and the second one that is a bit more complex, but still availiable to arabs, Christians, and atheists alike. Anyone can become a naturalized Israeli citizen, but its just easier if you are Jewish.

Secondly, this citizenship law is not unique to Israel, many "liberal western democracies" have similar laws on the books.

Section 116 of Germany's constitution allows people of "ethnic German origin" from Eastern Europe residency and citizenship rights.
Section 375 of the Greek citizenship law confers automatic citizenship to people of "Greek nationality" if they enlist in military service.
Section 25(1) of the Bulgarian constitution gives people of "Bulgarian origin" special access to obtaining Bulgarian citizenship.
Section 13(3) of the Armenian constitution confers automatic citizenship on a "native Armenian" living in the Armenian republic.
Section 18a of the Finnish foreigners' law states that a person from the Soviet Union who is of "Finnish origin" may, along with their spouse and children, receive permission for permanent residence and citizenship.
Section 14a of the Irish citizenship law of 1986 grants the interior minister authority to confer automatic citizenship on any applicant of "Irish origin or affiliation".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_return


If you look at the link theres about a LOT more nations with similar laws.

And for citizens of the state, there is NO reduction in rights if you are non-Jewish, there arent laws on the books that require circumsision in all children, and hell, im sure if you wanted to could find a peperoni pizza somewhere (which is against jewish dietary law :P)

My thoughts exactly. Personally, I have to wonder about a state based on race. No one would support a white state, and rightly so, so what about Israel?
the jews aren't a race, they are a religious group made up of many races. the dominant 'race' in the jewish religion are semites but most semites aren't jews, they're muslims.

First of all, jews are afforded no more rights in Israel than any other citizen, with the sole exception of how you attain citizenship.
which is a very important right and is fundamental to how you will be treated in a country forthwith.

the jews aren't a race, they are a religious group made up of many races. the dominant 'race' in the jewish religion are semites but most semites aren't jews, they're muslims.

Right, its a state based on (best word to describe it) an ETHNICITY, and just about every old world state is based on people from a similar ethnic background forming a nation. They dont disallow people from other ethnicities joining though.

Right, its a state based on (best word to describe it) a supposed ETHNICITY, and just about every old world state is based on people from a supposedly similar ethnic background forming a nation. They dont disallow people from other ethnicities joining though.
edited for accuracy

*Just about the biggest snip ever*
Aye, now let's have the Iraqi civilian casualties list, over a page or two of such lengthy posts...

A snipped list of those that died in NYC.

Nothing to do with anything. I suspect an attempt at debate by Spam.

"
AS you can see, Britian promised the land to 2 different peoples, jew, and arabs, the Jews have been in this land for thousands of years, same with the arabs. As you can see, Israel is a "legal" nation, even the UN agrees. However, Israel was forced to take extra lands after other Arab countries tried to invade, in order to make a buffer.


Why would a nation build civillian suburbs in a zone supposed to buffer against military attack?

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

Not at all.

No, because there is a difference between being anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic.

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

It's absolutely not contradictory.

First of all, not all jews are Israeli jews. Second of all, Jews have been through a lot of persecution over the centuries. Let's never forget that. Third, in the case of the average Israeli jew it's natural to feel sorry for people whose fear is being used by their own government to manipulate them for political gain. Especially when people are dying for it.

But my sympathy for Israel is limited by the fact that they are as responsible for their current situation as anybody else. If the people of Israel ever want peace, they will have to want it bad enough to change. No outside government, ally or enemy will ever make a signficant change in the lives of Israelis until they decide to do so themselves.

The United States might be a very young country but if there's one truth that can be derived from it's young history it's this: Freedom can't be given by someone else. It has to be taken.

And if palestine was the one with the incredibly well funded army, do you really think the israeli's would try to only fight conventionally?So,The end justifies the means?Give me a break.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

No.

Israel is a nation state (pun unintended) which is, like all nation states, a figment of our collctive imagination. It exists only because we pretend that lines drawn on maps matter.

Jews are people, who really do, physically, exist. One can dislike the country Israel (e.g. the boundaries, the actions of its officials) and have nothing against its inhabitants, be they Jewish or Arab.

There is no contradiction between disliking the existence of Israel and having nothing against Jews. Not all Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli.

Thus, in answer to your question, no it is not a contradiction.

The Jews have been repeatedly persecuted throughout their entire history virtually everywhere in the world; Italy, Germany, Russia, the Middle East, and so on. And still, I have yet to hear of a Jewish suicide bomber.

The Israeli Defence Force doesn't need to use a suicide bomb when it can use Hellfire rockets and Merkavas, or 155mm artillery shells. :rolleyes:

Suicide bombs are rather a recent development, with the idea being pioneered by the Tamil Tigers as far as I am aware - that is if we discount Kamikaze pilots. So I doubt that the Czars (for example) would have worried about it, as the very idea was unheard of.

This said, acts of suicidal bravery during the Warsaw uprising may well fall into this category - that of suicidal assaults on a force larger and better equipped than your own. The main difference here is that the Waffen-SS are not Tel Aviv restauraunters...

First of all, jews are afforded no more rights in Israel than any other citizen, with the sole exception of how you attain citizenship. Theres two processes, the first one which only applies to Jews (via the Law of Return) and the second one that is a bit more complex, but still availiable to arabs, Christians, and atheists alike. Anyone can become a naturalized Israeli citizen, but its just easier if you are Jewish.

Secondly, this citizenship law is not unique to Israel, many "liberal western democracies" have similar laws on the books.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_return


If you look at the link theres about a LOT more nations with similar laws.

And for citizens of the state, there is NO reduction in rights if you are non-Jewish, there arent laws on the books that require circumsision in all children, and hell, im sure if you wanted to could find a peperoni pizza somewhere (which is against jewish dietary law :P)

However, Israel is known to be a "Jewish" state, Ehud Olmert says that he wishes to withdraw from most of the west bank because he wants to keep Israel as a "Jewish" state. The entire point of the creation of Israel is so that there could be a "Jewish" state. Israel is alot more Jewish than you think.

Regarding Bogmarsh, you are the absolute index for racism. By seeing the 19 people who hijacked planes on September 11, you link together the first common denominator you can see, their skin colour. You could also look at other patterns, they may have been suicidal, orphaned, grown up in poverty, had a family member or friend killed by an American, over-protective upbringing, etc. However, instead of searching for that, you simply generalise the actions of 19 people with a race of 400 million and a religion of 1.2 billion. When I was in the US, there were about 20 people there who were absolute asses to me, however, never would I generalise their entire country on them. A young man named Othman, aged 18, was shot twice in the head in Iraq while unarmed by an American machine gun, he was my next door neighbour when I lived in Iraq, however I do not generalise the entire US army because of 1 murderer. By generalising all of Islam however, you expose your ignorance.

Also, do not say "Sunni muslim" because you probably dont even know the difference. All that you need to know before I get into a lecture as to the history of Islam, is that Shias are alot more extreme than Sunnis, for example part of their religion is to beat themselves in punishment to giving up Hussein, and it is not symbolic beating, we're talking about axes, chains, etc, many get sent to the emergency room. I think you now understand which of the 2 sects is more moderate.

If I may...?

Wahhabis tend to be more ... loony ... than the Shia, and the Sufis tend to be more laid back than anyone else.

Is that a fair approximation? After all, the Wahhabi Saudi leadership razed most of Mecca IIRC in order that it wouldn't distract from the revealed truth. Never mind that it was an ancient city, of course...!

However, Israel is known to be a "Jewish" state, Ehud Olmert says that he wishes to withdraw from most of the west bank because he wants to keep Israel as a "Jewish" state. The entire point of the creation of Israel is so that there could be a "Jewish" state. Israel is alot more Jewish than you think.

Regarding Bogmarsh, you are the absolute index for racism. By seeing the 19 people who hijacked planes on September 11, you link together the first common denominator you can see, their skin colour. You could also look at other patterns, they may have been suicidal, orphaned, grown up in poverty, had a family member or friend killed by an American, over-protective upbringing, etc. However, instead of searching for that, you simply generalise the actions of 19 people with a race of 400 million and a religion of 1.2 billion. When I was in the US, there were about 20 people there who were absolute asses to me, however, never would I generalise their entire country on them. A young man named Othman, aged 18, was shot twice in the head in Iraq while unarmed by an American machine gun, he was my next door neighbour when I lived in Iraq, however I do not generalise the entire US army because of 1 murderer. By generalising all of Islam however, you expose your ignorance.

Also, do not say "Sunni muslim" because you probably dont even know the difference. All that you need to know before I get into a lecture as to the history of Islam, is that Shias are alot more extreme than Sunnis, for example part of their religion is to beat themselves in punishment to giving up Hussein, and it is not symbolic beating, we're talking about axes, chains, etc, many get sent to the emergency room. I think you now understand which of the 2 sects is more moderate.

I'm not saying that Israel isnt a Jewish state. It IS, just like England is an English state and Germany is a German state. You can say you hate the government of germany without hating people of a German ethnicity, just like i can say i think the actions of the Irish government/organizations are pretty ridiculous without saying I hate Irishmen (of which there are many all over, including the US).

What I'm also saying is that there is NO LAW in Israel that accords preferance to a Jewish citizen over an Arab citizen, a Christian citizen, or a Druze Citizen. One can get citizenship easier by being Jewish,. but anyone can become an Israeli citizen and once there you are the same as any other citizen under the law.

...anyone can become an Israeli citizen and once there you are the same as any other citizen under the law.

Except that all Jews are automatically Israeli citizens if they wish. I would have to apply for citizenship. Everyone has to apply for English citizenship...

Oh, and 'same under the law' is great, but only when said law is used justly. More often than not, Arab-Israelis get the short end of the stick and are discriminated against. The moniker 'apartheid state' is used for a reason, after all.

Except that all Jews are automatically Israeli citizens if they wish. I would have to apply for citizenship. Everyone has to apply for English citizenship...

Oh, and 'same under the law' is great, but only when said law is used justly. More often than not, Arab-Israelis get the short end of the stick and are discriminated against. The moniker 'apartheid state' is used for a reason, after all.

As I posted before, many countries have laws on the books giving preferential treatment to people of a certain descent when it comes to citizenship ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Controversy )

And the discrimination is a personal matter, not a state matter. Many people might have prejudices in Israel, just as many people do not. There is no country on this planet without prejudiced people, Israel is not the worst when it comes to prejudiced people, and the state itself is not responsible for these beliefs.

Even England (which you used as an example of a just state) has a lot of people that are blatantly racist against asians or other minorities, something anyone can read about in various papers.

Israel is a modern nation, the jews are an ethnicity/religion. It is incidental that Israel is populated by jews. Criticsm of one is not criticism of the other, &c.

Israel is a modern nation, the jews are an ethnicity/religion. It is incidental that Israel is populated by jews. Criticsm of one is not criticism of the other, &c.

incidental? the entire POINT of israel is that it is jewish.

However, I do believe one can be anti zionist without being anti semetic. I am a muslim, however almost every Jew at my school at my year level is a friend of mine, many of them are zionists, but my social and political lives and opinions are separate, something that Tropical Sands finds hard to believe or accomplish.

Wahabbism is only found in Saudi Arabia, and makes up 20 million of the 1 billion Sunni muslims. Sufism is not even a recognised sect of Islam, simply a made up sect created for the softer muslims. I believe that Shias are not really muslims, because they believe that the angel Gabriel betrayed God and went to Muhammad instead of Ali (thus implying that Muhammad was a false prophet) however it is still an official sect so I let it be, unlike Sufism, which was entirely made up for people who wish to not follow any of the religion, but still feel warm inside that they are, technically, still muslim.

As I posted before, many countries have laws on the books giving preferential treatment to people of a certain descent when it comes to citizenship ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Controversy )

Yes, indeed. However, the point remains that if you are Jewish, you are automatically - automatically - a citizen of Israel. You can be Armenian and Jewish, Greek and Jewish... and an Israeli. If you look, that Wikipedia article states that:

"Section 116 of Germany's constitution allows people of "ethnic German origin"... to become citizens" - now, if you'll excuse me, but that would mean that at some point you have to have family born in Germany. If I was Jewish, I may be able to trace my ancestry back to, say, 12th Century Spain, and no further - yet still be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

No other country does this.

And the discrimination is a personal matter, not a state matter. Many people might have prejudices in Israel, just as many people do not. There is no country on this planet without prejudiced people, Israel is not the worst when it comes to prejudiced people, and the state itself is not responsible for these beliefs.

Which is true, until that recent judgement in the Israeli supreme court that seperated Arab-Israelis from their Israeli partners as an "unacceptable security risk" or some such shite. Oh, and the different ID cards and numberplates for Arab Israelis all smack of institutional racism. And no, you're right, Israel is indeed not the worst. It's one of the more violent, though.

Even England (which you used as an example of a just state) has a lot of people that are blatantly racist against asians or other minorities, something anyone can read about in various papers.

I wasn't using it as a 'just state', just as an opposing example of a state that has no 'if you are X you are automatically English' clause. And yes, we have a problem with racism. I never said we didn't.

Yes, indeed. However, the point remains that if you are Jewish, you are automatically - automatically - a citizen of Israel. You can be Armenian and Jewish, Greek and Jewish... and an Israeli. If you look, that Wikipedia article states that:

"Section 116 of Germany's constitution allows people of "ethnic German origin"... to become citizens" - now, if you'll excuse me, but that would mean that at some point you have to have family born in Germany. If I was Jewish, I may be able to trace my ancestry back to, say, 12th Century Spain, and no further - yet still be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

No other country does this.



Its not entirely unreasonable to automatically grant citizenship to people of a specific ethnicity, and others on that list I posted before *do* grant such citizenship.

Which is true, until that recent judgement in the Israeli supreme court that seperated Arab-Israelis from their Israeli partners as an "unacceptable security risk" or some such shite. Oh, and the different ID cards and numberplates for Arab Israelis all smack of institutional racism. And no, you're right, Israel is indeed not the worst. It's one of the more violent, though.


I have never heard of any different ID cards or numberplates for Arab citizens of Israel. I'd like a source for those statements. The only institutional difference that I can think of off the bat (which I honestly just remembered) is that Arabs are immune from the draft... though they can still volunteer to serve in the army. Forgive me if I consider that a benefit instead of a detriment.

There are arab members of the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) and even an Arab judge on the Israeli supreme court. But of course, Israel is an apartheid state and none of that is possible.

The recent court judgement states that the Palestinian partners of Arab Israelis could not immegrate and automatically gain citizenship by marriage. They thought it was a security risk... but there *are* ways for people to still rejoin their significant others.


I wasn't using it as a 'just state', just as an opposing example of a state that has no 'if you are X you are automatically English' clause. And yes, we have a problem with racism. I never said we didn't.

So Israel is a horrible state because it has no institutional racism but a (somewhat) racist populace, but England is just fine even though it has no institutional racism but a (somewhat) racist populace. I see.

Suicide bombs are rather a recent development, with the idea being pioneered by the Tamil Tigers as far as I am aware - that is if we discount Kamikaze pilots.

I think the first one was recorded during the First Gulf War and used by the Iranian side. Early in the war too, '82/83 maybe.

I have never heard of any different ID cards or numberplates for Arab citizens of Israel. I'd like a source for those statements. The only institutional difference that I can think of off the bat (which I honestly just remembered) is that Arabs are immune from the draft... though they can still volunteer to serve in the army. Forgive me if I consider that a benefit instead of a detriment.

There are indeed seperate licence plates for Jews and Arabs, I say this as someone who has been on Israeli roads, and the colour of one's licence plate will effect the ease to which you can travel. For example, someone with a Jewplate can get in and out of Jerusalem in five minutes, whereas an Arabplater may need to set aside all day to get into the city.

Arabs are only allowed in the backlines of the army. In desk jobs in IDF HQ.

The fact is that the state of Israel finds ways around its own laws and racism is prevalent, (much more so than most Western nations). Israeli Arabs by and large, however, accept this as a side-effect of living in a country that isn't Syria or Jordan. It is the Israeli Supreme Court that is seen as the ultimate protector of minority rights, as it is widely known that the other branches of Government cannot be trusted as far as they can be thrown.

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

thats a question that cant be answered.

i feel for both sides of the conflict...how cant you?

any innocent child...from either side killed is despicable,and wrong...do you not think that innocent israili kids are not killed?
just as innocent palistinian children are not indiscrimminately killed by artillery barrages.

it is a horror show that needs to stop!

i am callous,but seeing any child hurt(happens in war)makes me sick....get a fucking grip...make a deal and let your kids live like children should...wtf is so hard about that?

kids...palistinian and israili kids...should be playing with eachother...handing each other flowers...marrying eachother...but the fucktards dont let it happen,i weep for them all.

The recent court judgement states that the Palestinian partners of Arab Israelis could not immegrate and automatically gain citizenship by marriage. They thought it was a security risk

yes of course, all palestinians are a security risk to israel, talk about racist

There are indeed seperate licence plates for Jews and Arabs, I say this as someone who has been on Israeli roads, and the colour of one's licence plate will effect the ease to which you can travel. For example, someone with a Jewplate can get in and out of Jerusalem in five minutes, whereas an Arabplater may need to set aside all day to get into the city.



I just looked it up. The seperate license plates are for * migrant Palestinians* instead of *Arab citizens*. They want a way to identify people that might want to stay in the country illegaly, because they arent citizens. Actual Arab citizens of Israel (20% of the population) have the same license plates as any other *Citizen*.



Arabs are only allowed in the backlines of the army. In desk jobs in IDF HQ.



"The number of Muslim volunteers in 2003 was 64.5 percent higher than in 2000, while the enlistment of Christians increased by 16 percent over the same period.

A senior source at the IDF's Personnel Directorate notes that incomplete figures for 2004 show a further increase, at a rate of some 20 percent, in the enlistment of youth from both sectors.

The IDF does not furnish exact numbers, but it appears that the annual number of volunteers from both sectors together does not exceed 150. About half this number serves in infantry units, primarily the Desert Reconnaissance Unit.

http://www.israellycool.com/blog/_archives/2004/12/30/219138.html

There arent many Muslim volunteers, but they are allowed to serve in infantry units. I know the source isnt the best, but a quick google search didnt turn up anything to contradict it.



The fact is that the state of Israel finds ways around its own laws an
d racism is prevalent, (much more so than most Western nations). Israeli Arabs by and large, however, accept this as a side-effect of living in a country that isn't Syria or Jordan. It is the Israeli Supreme Court that is seen as the ultimate protector of minority rights, as it is widely known that the other branches of Government cannot be trusted as far as they can be thrown.

The point about the racism still being non-institutionalized still stands. Also, you say Arabs live in Israel because life is *better* than in Syria or Jordan? All right.

Finally, you say the Israeli Supreme Court is the ultimate protector of minority rights, yet you just posted not an hour ago that they supposedly limited Arab rights with their cross-border marriage proposal (which was just a ruling on citizenship by marriage).

Also, the Supreme Court (and the other branchs) have Arab members on them, and while it is not a representative sample it isnt that bad, considerring that most supreme courts/parliaments do not have that many minorities on them, including Americas and Englands.

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?

That's a pretty poor reason to hate a country. If you hated every country that has killed innocent people by mistake, you'd have to hate most countries in the world. America, most of all.

Wow.

You're a twat.

thats wrong,

did you have someone close to you die over some twisted idiots hatred...how can you call someone a twat,i would not call you a twat..while i hate bush and his little devils,,the fact is ....someones mom went to work and was murdered and her kids were orphaned..no excuse,no rationalation...evil fucks..period.

give them a pass...your wrong!

just cause you proffessor says we need to understand their hatred...which i am always willing to do...that DOES NOT EXONERATE murderers,and you making excuses for them is just as hollow.

they may be downtrodden,or even used...god forbid...but killing women and children....fuck that is the lowest form of scum.

go ahead and try to justify any cause intentionally killing innocents!

go away,you make me sick,yea i know the goliath known as the us is the epitomy of evil to you...but we dont intentionally kill children,and if we did...i would jump ship in a new york minute...but you make exscuses for animals..one day they will be at your door...and were will your proffessor be...beheaded..cause thats how the enemy does it....we accide3ntlly kill an innocent(horrible)you get your panties in a bunch..they intentionally do it and they are the good guys?

we are bad...they are far worse,and what sickens me is...you would rather kick the us in the shins then open your eyes and see the fucking horror the animals that you commiserate with...are heroes.

hero's dont behead people or blow up kids...intentionally...if they are your freedom fighters...then i hope to meet you someday on the field of battle..cause that is cowardly.

and they are the worse thing...god will spit on people that justify murdering innocent people in his name...neocons or jihadists!

--=-- Snip of badly spelled nightmare of a post--=--

Please, if you cant have an intelligent, well written, well reasoned, discussion with a modicum of cursing/insults, dont ruin a good thread with posts that make my eyes hurt.

Yes, indeed. However, the point remains that if you are Jewish, you are automatically - automatically - a citizen of Israel. You can be Armenian and Jewish, Greek and Jewish... and an Israeli. If you look, that Wikipedia article states that:

"Section 116 of Germany's constitution allows people of "ethnic German origin"... to become citizens" - now, if you'll excuse me, but that would mean that at some point you have to have family born in Germany. If I was Jewish, I may be able to trace my ancestry back to, say, 12th Century Spain, and no further - yet still be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

No other country does this.

No, being Jewish does not automatically make you a citizen of Israel. Jews still have to apply for the Law of Return, etc. In addition, there are many factors that will disqualify Jews as potential citizens, such as mental illness or criminal records. A Jew living in the United States is not automatically an Israeli citizen, nor are they considered an Israeli citizen if they havn't applied for citizenship and been accepted under the law of return. And if that US Jew is a gangster with a criminal record, they may never be an Israeli citizen.

You also seem confused regarding Germany's constitution here. This is a reference to ethnic German origin, not German political nationality. It does not have to do with family born in Germany, which is political nationality, but German ethnicity (which it states).

The wikipedia article mentioned lists 24 other nations with laws similiar to Israel's Law of Return. In fact, this form of citizenship is so common it has its own Latin legal name - leges sanguinis. To pretend that Israel is unique is to ignore the facts.

Wahabbism is only found in Saudi Arabia, and makes up 20 million of the 1 billion Sunni muslims. Sufism is not even a recognised sect of Islam, simply a made up sect created for the softer muslims. I believe that Shias are not really muslims, because they believe that the angel Gabriel betrayed God and went to Muhammad instead of Ali (thus implying that Muhammad was a false prophet) however it is still an official sect so I let it be, unlike Sufism, which was entirely made up for people who wish to not follow any of the religion, but still feel warm inside that they are, technically, still muslim.

You're starting to sound like the Christians who say "oh no, they're not real Christians!" Its the no true scottsman fallacy. Like most Christians who don't know as much about their own religion as others, Muslims are often similiar.

I'm not sure who you are claiming doesn't recognize Sufis. I have a degree in religious studies, and I can tell you that in the scholarly world we recognize Sufism as an Islamic order. But thats just scholarly concensus. Since you don't really recognize Shias either, I can't say I'm surprised you believe that Sufis aren't recognized too.

To clarify further, Sufism isn't seen as a sect of Islam (like you refer to it), such as Sunni or Shia Islam. Rather, its seen as an order within Islam. Most Sufis are in fact Sunnis or Shias, and Sufism has been mostly been accepted throughout the Islamic world in as a tariqa in these orders.

Famous Islamic scholars were even practitioners of Sufism, such as Suyuti and Ghazali. But perhaps you reject these Imams, who are still studied today, just like you reject Shia Islam as being truly Muslim and Sufism.

You're starting to sound like the Christians who say "oh no, they're not real Christians!" Its the no true scottsman fallacy. Like most Christians who don't know as much about their own religion as others, Muslims are often similiar.

I'm not sure who you are claiming doesn't recognize Sufis. I have a degree in religious studies, and I can tell you that in the scholarly world we recognize Sufism as an Islamic order. But thats just scholarly concensus. Since you don't really recognize Shias either, I can't say I'm surprised you believe that Sufis aren't recognized too.

To clarify further, Sufism isn't seen as a sect of Islam (like you refer to it), such as Sunni or Shia Islam. Rather, its seen as an order within Islam. Most Sufis are in fact Sunnis or Shias, and Sufism has been mostly been accepted throughout the Islamic world in as a tariqa in these orders.

Famous Islamic scholars were even practitioners of Sufism, such as Suyuti and Ghazali. But perhaps you reject these Imams, who are still studied today, just like you reject Shia Islam as being truly Muslim and Sufism.


For the purpose of this thread, does it even matter whats a valid sect of what religion? I cant think of any religion (except maybe shinto) which isnt fragmented into more sects than can be counted, both recognized and not.

Aye, now let's have the Iraqi civilian casualties list, over a page or two of such lengthy posts...

Frankly, I don't cry tears over enemy dead.
Not even in the case of a war that I consider to be a mistake.

Anyway, my position remains as before:
no peace, no truce, and no parley with those sunni arabs.

The shi'as will run Iraq in the end, and I wish them the best of luck.

The point about the racism still being non-institutionalized still stands. All right.

.

Alas no.

"The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm
Its a long report, but worth reading.

And if palestine was the one with the incredibly well funded army, do you really think the israeli's would try to only fight conventionally?

If the Palistianins want to fight a propper war and not be terrorists, then they do not intentionally target civilians. You target millitary instalations ONLY and try to minimise collatral damage as much as you can. This is what the Israelies are doing. The problem is the Palestian terrorists hide amoung civilians and intenitonally blur the line between civilian and soldier to their own benefit. Thus causing hundruds of Palistians to die.

Well, possibly the Palestinians could just stop fighting, would solve the entire conflict, they will never be able to beat Israel, and if they did somehow manage to, they would just be taking lands from Israel that was rightfully Israels.

What, exactly, makes the particular chunk of dirt and rocks identified as "Israel" 'rightfully' anyone's? The contention that they lived there 'first?' The first problem with that argument is that if enough descendants of the Amerindian peoples who were conned out of Manhattan got sufficient backing-- after suffering the indignities that native peoples have suffered through history since the colonisation of North & South America-- and decided they wanted it back, where would you stand then? Would you expect New Yorkers to simply move aside to make room for as many native settlements as they wanted? They were, after all, 'there first.'

The second problem is pretty well summarised by the expression "possession is 9/10ths of the law." If some thing (especially something like land, which predates, and will outlast me and my notions of laws and ownership, rendering my power to 'possess it' questionable) that I took for myself in my childhood and was then lost to me, and someone else had it for 20 or 30 years (or a thousand), and they've taken the best care of it that they could, owned it as well as they could, then who is more entitled to it? Me, because I decided to call it 'mine' first, or theirs, because they've had it long enough that it's come to mean far more to them as a reality than it does to me as an abstraction.

And please don't go off on some reactive "you're an anti-Semite" fit, because it would be in error. I don't hate Jewish people, and I can appreciate that they've been persocuted (and yet, interestingly, plenty of higher-ups in the organised Jewish church don't seem to have a problem with persocuting certain other people...). But having been victimised doesn't confer carte blanche to become victimisers. If anything, the inheritence of being the victim of injustice ought to be an even greater commitment to being just. Jewish people-- if there were such a monolithic 'entity'-- for having sufferered oppression, should do everything in its power not to oppress any other. I can understand the appeal of an oppressed group of people wanting a homeland where they can congregate for safety and self-determination, but there's a difference between colonising some unoccupied land, and taking over (even "taking back") land where other people are actually living, forcing them out of their homes (and calling them terrorists when they fight back).

These aren't "anti-Semitic" thoughts: these are the thoughts of someone preoccupied with justice in general, no matter the particulars.

Watching another Israeli air attack on the West Bank targeting the 'militant groups'. Saw some young girl with probably enough shrapnel in her back to set off a mine detector where they bury her.

Would you consider it contradictory for someone to dislike Israel's existance but have no hard feelings against Jews?
if you define "Israel" as "Israeli government", the answer is "no" (period).

Frankly, I don't cry tears over enemy dead.
Not even in the case of a war that I consider to be a mistake.

Anyway, my position remains as before:
no peace, no truce, and no parley with those sunni arabs.

The shi'as will run Iraq in the end, and I wish them the best of luck.

I believe I asked yopu this question once before, but the thread died or something, so I shall ask it again. What alternative is there to peace between the Sunni Iraqis and everybody else. Would you rather see perpetual warfare in Iraq; with mothers, childeren, of civilians and soldiers, killed and maimed until we have three, four, five or six pages of posts with the names of the known dead? Are you really so cold as to wish that upon so many people?

I wish the Shia Arabs all the best of running Iraq - along with their Sunni and Kurdish coalition partners.