NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, I've been thinking lately, though I admit it may not be the best course of action.

I'm thinking China, with a population of around 1 Billion people, has a standing army of about 2 and a quarter million people; this bothers me.

Why?

Think about it. The American military is approximately 1.4 million people, with another three quarters of a million in reserve. Yes, these are rough estimates.

So China's standing army of 2,225,000 men almost outnumbers our entire military force; not counting the Chinese reserves, which is what really gets to me. 1 billion people. Lets take a scary situation; China gets truly pissed and calls a nationwide draft. How big could their army get? I'd say a conservative estimate would be 100,000,000 people, 1/3 of the entire US population.

So you might say that it doesn't matter, US technology can take care of them all, but I don't know about that either. Yes, US tech is the best, hands down. But China's technology isn't too far behind. Yes, it lags in parts, but it can still do damage; and damage in those kind of numbers can take its toll. Look what happened to Germany.

But what the hell is China going to do with that massive army?

They completely lack any force projection ability.

But what the hell is China going to do with that massive army?

They completely lack any force projection ability.

I disagree... they've got plenty of transport planes, plenty of ways to move men; the only reason the US can mobilize its military so well is because it has so many bases throughout the world.

I disagree... they've got plenty of transport planes, plenty of ways to move men; the only reason the US can mobilize its military so well is because it has so many bases throughout the world.

Do they? Of course, they have to have some place to land these planes. And keep their troops resupplied. Plus, the PRC has a very limited blue water navy, and a woefully inadequate amphibious ability.

They lack the ability to destroy something half a world away almost at leisure. The US can do that.

Mongolia better watch out!

Do they? Of course, they have to have some place to land these planes. And keep their troops resupplied. Plus, the PRC has a very limited blue water navy, and a woefully inadequate amphibious ability.

They lack the ability to destroy something half a world away almost at leisure. The US can do that.

True. But the Chinese army can keep their troops resupplied. There is an incredible rice industry in China (not a joke), which, though not exactly the best tasting, is the perfect staple diet for troops...good carbohydrate.

There is no need to land planes; paratroopers work wonders.

I'm not worried about an invasion, but I'm just thinking, if there was a war between US and China, we'd have a hell of a fight, and I don't know that we'd come out ahead.

Alright, I've been thinking lately, though I admit it may not be the best course of action.

I'm thinking China, with a population of around 1 Billion people, has a standing army of about 2 and a quarter million people; this bothers me.

Why?

Think about it. The American military is approximately 1.4 million people, with another three quarters of a million in reserve. Yes, these are rough estimates.

So China's standing army of 2,225,000 men almost outnumbers our entire military force; not counting the Chinese reserves, which is what really gets to me. 1 billion people. Lets take a scary situation; China gets truly pissed and calls a nationwide draft. How big could their army get? I'd say a conservative estimate would be 100,000,000 people, 1/3 of the entire US population.

So you might say that it doesn't matter, US technology can take care of them all, but I don't know about that either. Yes, US tech is the best, hands down. But China's technology isn't too far behind. Yes, it lags in parts, but it can still do damage; and damage in those kind of numbers can take its toll. Look what happened to Germany.


The only way we'd ever beat China in a groundwar (Pure numbers) would be a bioweapon engineered to attack the chinese DNA..or something like that that is really ethically and morally murky. They've got 180 or so million draftable men. That's half the US population right there, but they chinese economy couldn't function with less than half of them gone, and they certainly couldn't afford to feed them or all equip them.

True. But the Chinese army can keep their troops resupplied. There is an incredible rice industry in China (not a joke), which, though not exactly the best tasting, is the perfect staple diet for troops...good carbohydrate.

There is no need to land planes; paratroopers work wonders.

I'm not worried about an invasion, but I'm just thinking, if there was a war between US and China, we'd have a hell of a fight, and I don't know that we'd come out ahead.

Logistics man! Logistics! China lacks the transport capacity to make a substancial move anywhere.

Ahhh...paratroopers. Paratroopers cannot hold land. They disrupt the rear, but they cannot hold it by themselves. This was demonstrated during operation Market Garden. Any unsupported paratroopers would be crushed by armoured forces.

A war between the US and China, barring economic considerations, would end up as a draw at worst for the US. China has no ability to hurt the US if the US does not let them.

The chinese have no force projection capability. Sure, with a shitload of luck they can get mabye a couple 8F200's through our vastly superior airforce but then all you have is a few troops with no combat multipliers and no resupply. Im shaking in my boots. By the way your numbers for U.S. forces are way off. You overestimated by a lot. If we were to go in and invade China, then our politicians made a huge mistake. We can't occupy a country like China. However, they don't have a shits chance in hell of touching U.S. soil and everyone knows that we control the seas. If we really were in a full scale war with china then we would need to get our missle defense system set up because its gonna come down to them nuking us. If it really did come to that though the conventional war would be a blockade of china combined with infrastructure and military bombing until they surrendered. By the way, in modern warfare, total numbers means pretty much nothing. With the same basic equipment and china has now, Iraq's 1,000,000 battle hardened troops were whipped by 500,000 guys who had never been in a war zone.

A war between the US and China, barring economic considerations, would end up as a draw at worst for the US. China has no ability to hurt the US if the US does not let them.

So lets consider economic considerations, shall we?

USA; major consumer nation. Buys many of its goods from China/southeast Asia. China enforces an embargo on the US...bad shit goes down for us.

China; major industrial nation, sells huge amount to the USA.
After enforcing embargo, China focuses sales on other parts of the world, assuming it hasn't had any embargos placed on it. Even then, theres almost always someone to sell to.

The only way we'd ever beat China in a groundwar (Pure numbers) would be a bioweapon engineered to attack the chinese DNA.
You have no idea how much i hate people like you. You talk like you've been there done that when you sitting infront of your parents computer and have never been in anything even remotely close to combat and have no knowledge of shit. Get a life.

All China is to the US military is a target rich enviroment . They start shit and I invest heavily in the arms manufacturing indusry...someone will have to replace all the bombs and other ordinance used to pound China into rubble..without nukes. Once they have no more industry or power or dams or electricity ...never mind a live army , air farce , or navy...who cares about them..they can start over from pre industrial times...or maybe Russia and vietnam and all of their traditional enemys will just bite pieces off of what ever is left .

But I'll still eat dim sum .

So lets consider economic considerations, shall we?

USA; major consumer nation. Buys many of its goods from China/southeast Asia. China enforces an embargo on the US...bad shit goes down for us.

China; major industrial nation, sells huge amount to the USA.
After enforcing embargo, China focuses sales on other parts of the world, assuming it hasn't had any embargos placed on it. Even then, theres almost always someone to sell to.

We talking about military power, not economics. Stick to your own topic.

So lets consider economic considerations, shall we?

USA; major consumer nation. Buys many of its goods from China/southeast Asia. China enforces an embargo on the US...bad shit goes down for us.

China; major industrial nation, sells huge amount to the USA.
After enforcing embargo, China focuses sales on other parts of the world, assuming it hasn't had any embargos placed on it. Even then, theres almost always someone to sell to.
They can't sell anything if they can't export the goods.

The chinese have no force projection capability. Sure, with a shitload of luck they can get mabye a couple 8F200's through our vastly superior airforce but then all you have is a few troops with no combat multipliers and no resupply. Im shaking in my boots. By the way your numbers for U.S. forces are way off. You overestimated by a lot. If we were to go in and invade China, then our politicians made a huge mistake. We can't occupy a country like China. However, they don't have a shits chance in hell of touching U.S. soil and everyone knows that we control the seas. If we really were in a full scale war with china then we would need to get our missle defense system set up because its gonna come down to them nuking us. If it really did come to that though the conventional war would be a blockade of china combined with infrastructure and military bombing until they surrendered. By the way, in modern warfare, total numbers means pretty much nothing. With the same basic equipment and china has now, Iraq's 1,000,000 battle hardened troops were whipped by 500,000 guys who had never been in a war zone.

I already said I'm not afraid of an invasion; and the chinese army is way more technologically advanced than the Iraqi army. And we're not talking 1,000,000 here, we're talking 100,000,000. My overestimation just helps my point some... we're outnumbered, and, though not outgunned, it wouldn't be a cakewalk.


Just supposing, what if the Chinese Airforce (which is also largest in the world) decides to focus a few more divisions on air transportation, rather than defense? Thats not impossible.

And, like I said, the USA is better equipped; but we're not that much better anymore.

They can't sell anything if they can't export the goods.
Thats true. The US would put a pretty tight blockade on them.

I already said I'm not afraid of an invasion; and the chinese army is way more technologically advanced than the Iraqi army. And we're not talking 1,000,000 here, we're talking 100,000,000. My overestimation just helps my point some... we're outnumbered, and, though not outgunned, it wouldn't be a cakewalk.


Just supposing, what if the Chinese Airforce (which is also largest in the world) decides to focus a few more divisions on air transportation, rather than defense? Thats not impossible.

And, like I said, the USA is better equipped; but we're not that much better anymore.

You cannot invade a nation using airplanes alone. You need transport ships. Of which, the PLAN has laughably few.

You cannot invade a nation using airplanes alone. You need transport ships. Of which, the PLAN has laughably few.
Yeah, ships are a plus.

I'm off for the night, but I still think that everyone's underestimating China.

Yeah, ships are a plus.

I'm off for the night, but I still think that everyone's underestimating China.

And you are oversimplifying force projection.

So lets consider economic considerations, shall we?

USA; major consumer nation. Buys many of its goods from China/southeast Asia. China enforces an embargo on the US...bad shit goes down for us.

China; major industrial nation, sells huge amount to the USA.
After enforcing embargo, China focuses sales on other parts of the world, assuming it hasn't had any embargos placed on it. Even then, theres almost always someone to sell to.
You forget that the United States basically controls the world.....economy. One of China's most important trade partners is the US. Sure, China CAN find someone else. But will they? Why buy chinese when you can buy from an equally impoverished nation? After Japan stupidly decided to get colonial and stupidly decided to bomb Pearl Harbor after the US got pissed(Japan was attacking the Phillipines, which the US basicly owned at the time), the United States left its isolationistic views and it shows.

I already said I'm not afraid of an invasion; and the chinese army is way more technologically advanced than the Iraqi army. And we're not talking 1,000,000 here, we're talking 100,000,000. My overestimation just helps my point some... we're outnumbered, and, though not outgunned, it wouldn't be a cakewalk.
What do you even think a war would be like? If its a naval war their millions of uneducated infantry mean nothing. If its an air war their millions of uneducated infantry mean nothing.

ust supposing, what if the Chinese Airforce (which is also largest in the world) decides to focus a few more divisions on air transportation, rather than defense? Thats not impossible.
Yea and it would make our air forces job a shit load easier. Just a bunch of transports to shoot down instead of a bunch of planes with little combat capablility to shoot down.

And, like I said, the USA is better equipped; but we're not that much better anymore.
Uhh... yes we are. Do you really think the only ones getting better are the chinese? Are you aware how much we spend a year to improve our military?

The US could blockade china, but china does have one of, if not the largest airforce in the world. I wouldn't want to be on any american ships laying off its coast.

I've always understood tha tis one of the major reasons they havent invaded Taiwan, because they dont have the transport capacity to land a big enough force to take the island?

I already said I'm not afraid of an invasion; and the chinese army is way more technologically advanced than the Iraqi army. And we're not talking 1,000,000 here, we're talking 100,000,000. My overestimation just helps my point some... we're outnumbered, and, though not outgunned, it wouldn't be a cakewalk.


Just supposing, what if the Chinese Airforce (which is also largest in the world) decides to focus a few more divisions on air transportation, rather than defense? Thats not impossible.

And, like I said, the USA is better equipped; but we're not that much better anymore.


How will they stop the US from bombing their command and controll and infastructure into atoms along with every piece of their military they cant hide ?

name the secret weapon they have ...Chinese airfarce ? What a joke ..Two weeks tops and china has no planes unless they hide them or do an iraq and give them to someone...then what ?

Stealth bombers using conventional explosives ...no air defense ...B1 and B-52 bombers...no more industry or electricity in China. ...not to mention cruise missiles....for whatever airfields and supply depots...not to mention unmanned bombers.....cripes ...talk about destruction ? no trains ..no planes..no automoblies..back to horse and buggy days for China .

And not one American would set foot intentionaly ..except special forces for those special targets...until they arive to accept the surrender.

Dude go read a book or something..or google some military web sites..this is not command and conquer .

The US could blockade china, but china does have one of, if not the largest airforce in the world. I wouldn't want to be on any american ships laying off its coast.

Considering the majority of the PLAAF consists of domestic copies of 40 year old soviet fighters, I'm not really that worried.

We talking about military power, not economics. Stick to your own topic.

Economics and manufacturing is part of it. Besides that I really enjoy bizarre international economic theories regarding leverage.

You have no idea how much i hate people like you. You talk like you've been there done that when you sitting infront of your parents computer and have never been in anything even remotely close to combat and have no knowledge of shit. Get a life.

Dude...WTF?

I don't think we could ever take the mainland...too vast. We COULD keep them from crossing the straights to Taiwan though.

Was it something I said?

Hmm...

I still stand by the idea that we could never take over the mainland.


BUT




Could we blockade China so that NOTHING goes in or out thus crushing the chinese economy and thus suffocating the gov't?

Dude...WTF?

I don't think we could ever take the mainland...too vast. We COULD keep them from crossing the straights to Taiwan though.

Was it something I said?
Probabley something about the bioweapons altering DNA. WTF is that? That is just so stupid i can't react to it in any other way than wanting to punch you in the face.

Here's an idea: Don't fight China!

Here's an idea: Don't fight China!
We're just talking theoreticals but one possible trigger is obviously a taiwan invasion. Would you really be for allowing a democratic nation to be taken by an oppressive communistic one. I know your going to say it's free but that is only economiically.

Here you go...

United States of America ...................Country......................... China
Flag
$399 Billion............ Yearly Military Expense ...............................$60 Billion
3.9% %......................... of GNP ........................................3.5% - 5%
18 Min.......................... Enlist Age............................................. 18
73,597,731............... Available Manpower ..............................379,524,688
471,500 .......................Active Military................................... 1,750,000
220,000 ......................Frontline Personnel ..............................1,400,000
18,169 .............................Aircraft.......................................... 9,218
29,920 ..............................Armor........................................... 13,200
5,178 ................................Artillery......................................... 29,060
35,324 ..........................Missile Defense ....................................18,500
2,441 ..............................Infantry Support................................. 34,000


http://www.militaryfactory.com/countries_comparison_detail.asp


Its not worth doing the Navy because the US Navy has more military strength than all the Navy's in the world combined .


I can just see the old guys in China just dying to go back to being coolies again .

Here's an idea: Don't fight China!

That sounds like the idea that makes the most sense.

Probabley something about the bioweapons altering DNA. WTF is that? That is just so stupid i can't react to it in any other way than wanting to punch you in the face.

Something I thought off the top of my head. There are other possibilites, this one came to mind quicker after some reading I've done lately on bioweapons.

Considering the majority of the PLAAF consists of domestic copies of 40 year old soviet fighters, I'm not really that worried.

It doesn't take a modern plane to launch a couple cruise missiles at a naval formation from the safety of a couple hundred miles. Any naval group would be dangerously close to the mainland and possibly be within range of many, many anti-ship missiles.

I'm not saying teh chinese would win, but it would be rough, very rough.

We're just talking theoreticals but one possible trigger is obviously a taiwan invasion. Would you really be for allowing a democratic nation to be taken by an oppressive communistic one. I know your going to say it's free but that is only economiically.

There's a reason to start lobbing shells into china. Taiwan is worth fighting for.

Something I thought off the top of my head. There are other possibilites, this one came to mind quicker after some reading I've done lately on bioweapons.
Whatever you're reading, stop and forget it. Then you can come back to reality.

It doesn't take a modern plane to launch a couple cruise missiles at a naval formation from the safety of a couple hundred miles. Any naval group would be dangerously close to the mainland and possibly be within range of many, many anti-ship missiles.

I'm not saying teh chinese would win, but it would be rough, very rough.

US ship-borne missile defense is teh suck.

The over-the-horizon radar in Hawaii would see them the second they launched.

There's a reason to start lobbing shells into china. Taiwan is worth fighting for.
That's pretty much exactly what i said

Here's an idea: Don't fight China!


Here's a better idea ..read your own books...Sun Tzu .... and never get into a war with the US that you know you will lose..and lose badly .

Of course, since none of the military issues exist in a vacuum, you should consider the economics. Given how heavily the chinese have investedin the US dollar, they could do same major economic damage to the US. Not insurmountable, but it makes no sense for either side to resort to warfare. There are too many benefits to peaceful relations.

Whatever you're reading, stop and forget it. Then you can come back to reality.

So I guess genetically engineered bioweapons are the stuff of star wars huh?

C'mon man....

Here's an idea: Don't fight China!

Agreed. If we fought now we'd win. Our navy would simply obliterate theirs without launching a plane. If we asembled all, what is it, 12 of our Carier Battle Groups? We could hurl thousands of cruise missiles and anti-shipping missiles ad Chinese Naval Assets and Military Infastructure.

If China embargoed us, that hurts us for six months. Why? Because a lot of the coompanies in China are American companies. "Oh but they' wouldn't come back, labor's too cheap!" Yes they would. They'd either come back to American, or more likely head to another country without minimum wages so they can sell to their number one market.

It doesn't take a modern plane to launch a couple cruise missiles at a naval formation from the safety of a couple hundred miles. Any naval group would be dangerously close to the mainland and possibly be within range of many, many anti-ship missiles.

I'm not saying teh chinese would win, but it would be rough, very rough.

Considering that the current Chinese cruise missiles are, again, old soviet copies that require large bombers (also soviet copies) to launch, I am still not worried.

Of course, since none of the military issues exist in a vacuum, you should consider the economics. Given how heavily the chinese have investedin the US dollar, they could do same major economic damage to the US. Not insurmountable, but it makes no sense for either side to resort to warfare. There are too many benefits to peaceful relations.
Yup. The global economy has pretty much made large scale war obsolete.

[QUOTE=DesignatedMarksman]US ship-borne missile defense is teh suck.
[QUOTE]

Ship borne missile defenses, despite what they say in the RP forums here, are not perfect defenses. With the volume of missiles that would be fired, some are bound to get through.

I'd rather be on a sub than on a surface ship in the pacific if a war did break out.

So I guess genetically engineered bioweapons are the stuff of star wars huh?

C'mon man....
First off, geneva conventions are explicitly against that. Second, you make it sound like some video game where you have one leet weapon and you pwn all. Grow up. What the hell do you think we're gonna do? Create a massive cloud of mustard gas to commit genocide with? It's just so stupid its hard to believe a human could come up with it.

Ship borne missile defenses, despite what they say in the RP forums here, are not perfect defenses. With the volume of missiles that would be fired, some are bound to get through.

I'd rather be on a sub than on a surface ship in the pacific if a war did break out.

Of course, these bombers have to get within 50 miles or so to launch these missiles. That, friend, is a very hard thing to do.

Well, humans have shown a remarkable capacity for stupidity throughout history.

Nuclear war with Russia equals instant loss...
>_>
<_<

I've always understood tha tis one of the major reasons they havent invaded Taiwan, because they dont have the transport capacity to land a big enough force to take the island?

Actually, as it keeps coming up, the only reason China doesn't invade Taiwan is because ITS AMERICAN!!!

Alright, I've been thinking lately, though I admit it may not be the best course of action.

I'm thinking China, with a population of around 1 Billion people, has a standing army of about 2 and a quarter million people; this bothers me.

Why?

Think about it. The American military is approximately 1.4 million people, with another three quarters of a million in reserve. Yes, these are rough estimates.

So China's standing army of 2,225,000 men almost outnumbers our entire military force; not counting the Chinese reserves, which is what really gets to me. 1 billion people. Lets take a scary situation; China gets truly pissed and calls a nationwide draft. How big could their army get? I'd say a conservative estimate would be 100,000,000 people, 1/3 of the entire US population.

So you might say that it doesn't matter, US technology can take care of them all, but I don't know about that either. Yes, US tech is the best, hands down. But China's technology isn't too far behind. Yes, it lags in parts, but it can still do damage; and damage in those kind of numbers can take its toll. Look what happened to Germany.

Should something start, it'll be U.S. subs launching Cruise missiles at Chinese coastal defense batteries and airfields, coupled with stealth bomber strikes on key command, control and communications targets.

We're fully aware of the threat of aircraft against any surface naval force...our subs will do almost all of the work until the threat is reduced significantly.

Eventually the carriers move in...but that's only if China hasn't already surrendered due to destruction of ecnomic infastructure, or disintigrated due to internal instability.

China might be able to draft a 100 million man army...but I'll take a couple hundred F-18's armed with cluster bombs over any such force.

yeah, and i think i can live without matchbox cars for a month.

my friend is from china. he says that most soldiers in China train in hand-to-hand combat in the mountains for months. i told him to try his kung-fu against an M1A1 Abrams tank. he had no reply.

we could bomb china to dust. after we get through with em, the only thing they can do is farm rice.

Actually, as it keeps coming up, the only reason China doesn't invade Taiwan is because ITS AMERICAN!!!

America=/=Chinese Taipei

Agreed. If we fought now we'd win. Our navy would simply obliterate theirs without launching a plane. If we asembled all, what is it, 12 of our Carier Battle Groups? We could hurl thousands of cruise missiles and anti-shipping missiles ad Chinese Naval Assets and Military Infastructure.

If China embargoed us, that hurts us for six months. Why? Because a lot of the coompanies in China are American companies. "Oh but they' wouldn't come back, labor's too cheap!" Yes they would. They'd either come back to American, or more likely head to another country without minimum wages so they can sell to their number one market. like i said, we can live without plastic mcdonalds toys and matchbox cars

Ship borne missile defenses, despite what they say in the RP forums here, are not perfect defenses. With the volume of missiles that would be fired, some are bound to get through.

I'd rather be on a sub than on a surface ship in the pacific if a war did break out.
To carry out a blockade we don't need to put ships within their coastal defense missile range which is about 300 miles. An f-18 launched from an aircraft carrier 450 miles off the chinese coast could reach the coast and come back w/o refueling. Well outside their defenses range.

yeah, and i think i can live without matchbox cars for a month.

my friend is from china. he says that most soldiers in China train in hand-to-hand combat in the mountains for months. i told him to try his kung-fu against an M1A1 Abrams tank. he had no reply.

we could bomb china to dust. after we get through with em, the only thing they can do is farm rice.

All 100,000,000? Sure...

Remember, much of China's massive manpower is in the form of reserves and militia. Pulling all those people away from civilian jobs for active duty would be terrible for the Chinese infrastructure. Remember the II Armed Forces rules...;)

i belive i said most not all. and its a big county pal.

yeah, and i think i can live without matchbox cars for a month.

my friend is from china. he says that most soldiers in China train in hand-to-hand combat in the mountains for months. i told him to try his kung-fu against an M1A1 Abrams tank. he had no reply.

we could bomb china to dust. after we get through with em, the only thing they can do is farm rice.
You are among the lowest forms of life. You have done nothing in you life and have earned no right to boast about anything especially something you don't know about. Just shut up.

Should something start, it'll be U.S. subs launching Cruise missiles at Chinese coastal defense batteries and airfields, coupled with stealth bomber strikes on key command, control and communications targets.

We're fully aware of the threat of aircraft against any surface naval force...our subs will do almost all of the work until the threat is reduced significantly.

Eventually the carriers move in...but that's only if China hasn't already surrendered due to destruction of ecnomic infastructure, or disintigrated due to internal instability.

China might be able to draft a 100 million man army...but I'll take a couple hundred F-18's armed with cluster bombs over any such force.

Dude...cluster napalm armed F18s....:p

America=/=Chinese Taipei

Practically the same...if you see the underside of most things, they generally say TAIWAN, not China.

Also, Communist China is falling apart anyway. Really, of 1.3 billion people, only 3 million are party members. Thats like, under 1% man!

You are among the lowest forms of life. You have done nothing in you life and have earned no right to boast about anything especially something you don't know about. Just shut up.

Post qouted for the Katganistan slapdown.

We're just talking theoreticals but one possible trigger is obviously a taiwan invasion. Would you really be for allowing a democratic nation to be taken by an oppressive communistic one. I know your going to say it's free but that is only economiically.
That's hardly an accurate representation. Fact is that although most Taiwanese don't identify with the PRC, they still see themselves as Chinese. Almost all of them are in favour of reunification at some point, based on a mutual understanding.
There is only one party in Taiwan that wants full sovereignty, and that is their least popular policy.

Now, there are many facets to this story, but whatever they are, they have nothing to do with the US. At the moment, the US involvement is at best unnecessary, at best actually hurting the process of getting reunification on the way, perhaps alá Hong Kong with Taiwan being a special economic zone.

If China embargoed us, that hurts us for six months. Why? Because a lot of the coompanies in China are American companies. "Oh but they' wouldn't come back, labor's too cheap!" Yes they would. They'd either come back to American, or more likely head to another country without minimum wages so they can sell to their number one market.
That just shows a pretty big lack of understanding about economics. Aside from firms not being able to just switch like that, the real issue is China's ability to make the US Dollar virtually worthless from one day to the next...

First off, geneva conventions are explicitly against that. Second, you make it sound like some video game where you have one leet weapon and you pwn all. Grow up. What the hell do you think we're gonna do? Create a massive cloud of mustard gas to commit genocide with? It's just so stupid its hard to believe a human could come up with it.

It's not the end all weapon. Never said it was, but it WOULD wipe out a massive part of the chinese population. And I DID say it was ethically and morally dirty. But then again, so is war.

Dude...cluster napalm armed F18s....:p
You're sounding kinda 12 y/o halo playerish again.

i belive i said most not all. and its a big county pal.

Most typically means more than half. My point still stands.

You are among the lowest forms of life. You have done nothing in you life and have earned no right to boast about anything especially something you don't know about. Just shut up.


I know its hard but...deep breaths....maybe another forum or thread...amatuer hour with 12 year olds is bad enough when they live in your house...:)

Almost all of them are in favour of reunification at some point, based on a mutual understanding.

Link me.

That just shows a pretty big lack of understanding about economics. Aside from firms not being able to just switch like that, the real issue is China's ability to make the US Dollar virtually worthless from one day to the next...

But wouldn't that be ultimately self destructive? If the US economy goes down the crapper, theirs will be adversely affected. no?

Link me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_reunification#In_Taiwan
I suppose "eventual reunification" was perhaps not quite the right word. "Status Quo" however seems to be that the two are not quite apart and not quite together.
The US Hawks favours complete independence, so their goals are different from those of the Taiwanese.
http://www.noticias.info/Archivo/2004/200411/20041116/20041116_40109.shtm
It's interesting though that "slow reunification" isn't one of the poll options - it's always status quo or rapid reunification.

At any rate, the stance of the US government itself has been moving anyways as China has become more important as a trading partner.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FJ30Ad03.html
"Taiwan is not independent. It does not enjoy sovereignty as a nation, and that remains our policy, our firm policy."

But wouldn't that be ultimately self destructive? If the US economy goes down the crapper, theirs will be adversely affected. no?
Yes, but their economy, being much more centralised and having much more manufacturing capabilities in the country is probably more likely to still function on a war-type level without a stable currency and banking system.

Not so the US economy.

for china to attack america full force would require massive amphibius assults on numerous fronts which require resources that china really doesn't have, it is following russia and gradually losing its grasp, even if they did pull it of, we would know about the invasion long before it got here, and there is american patriotism dating back to the minute man that would make america very hard to control befor a massive and ultimately successful uprising would be staged and do not foget, he who lives by the WMD shall die by the WMD

If China embargoed us, that hurts us for six months.

An interesting point: 100% of the world's commercial motherboards (not entirely sure about speciality/commercial mobos, but I'm fairly sure they're the same), and most of its memory, harddrives and other PC components, are made in China/Taiwan.

*snip*

The US and China are, what, the 3rd and 5th largest countries in the world? I think any talk of conquest is just idle chatter, at this point- on either side.

y am i so horrible USMC? plz defend ur claims

Here go look at these maps of China ...look at all the targets...notice that for ease of state controll and efficency..they have concentrated there major industry in one area...:) Now you do not have to be a military genius to know that since hydro power is a major source of energy in China..and it will flood large area's of there nicely bunched industry that it will take a few bombs to knock out the power grid in China...or a nice EMP warhead..along with the major source of capital...notice also the many avenues of approach by air to major Chines cities...they all must be defended..or none are defended..a US carrier group could do lots of damage with little risk ...now as for stealth fighters and stelth bombers..well think of the most high value targets..and take them off the map in the first few hours...air defense command and controll and general command and controll of the airforce .
Now target all major air fields for sub and ship luanched cruise missiles ..from the sea of Japan..and the South China sea ..and off of India..that covers all the are almost up to all the Stans bodering China and russia..

So whats the chines airfarce to do ? Whats left of them can sortie...and be toasted ..before they can get in radar / weapons range of their targets...you did note that central command and controll of the airforce has been removed..so the airfarce of China has to rely on the airborne radar of there planes to target or even find any formations that will be heading back to refuel and rearm while their missiles are tracking Chinese plannes wandering around looking for something to shoot at .

In the first Gulf war Saddam was said to have one of the best air defense systems in the world ....Didnt work out too well for him now did it..China is just a saddam type military with more targets to destroy...many similaritys.

BTW the rest of the world did take note of the " lacK " of performance of many of the soviet weapons sytems the US military has been blowing up for years now.....China is based heavily on soviet designed equipment .
China even has some of its own designs for us to Blow up . at least it will be a little different..

The true threat is Chines diesel subs that are WAY too quiet ...or so some say...but the US has had years to play around tracking them and more than likely hhas there sonar signitures in the computers...but if casulties come ..aside from the unlucky few planes that get shot down..it will be subs that do it..while they are alive .

The pissed off guys are gonna be the Abrams drivers...never going to get another duck shoot like Iraq...not in China..unless the country revolts and the US lands a task force to push matters along..

http://www.theodora.com/maps/china_map.html

Alright, I've been thinking lately, though I admit it may not be the best course of action.

I'm thinking China, with a population of around 1 Billion people, has a standing army of about 2 and a quarter million people; this bothers me.

Why?

Think about it. The American military is approximately 1.4 million people, with another three quarters of a million in reserve. Yes, these are rough estimates.

So China's standing army of 2,225,000 men almost outnumbers our entire military force; not counting the Chinese reserves, which is what really gets to me. 1 billion people. Lets take a scary situation; China gets truly pissed and calls a nationwide draft. How big could their army get? I'd say a conservative estimate would be 100,000,000 people, 1/3 of the entire US population.

So you might say that it doesn't matter, US technology can take care of them all, but I don't know about that either. Yes, US tech is the best, hands down. But China's technology isn't too far behind. Yes, it lags in parts, but it can still do damage; and damage in those kind of numbers can take its toll. Look what happened to Germany.
The way i see it is the more troops they have the more troops that will die.
If China tried to play a weight of numbers wins the battle against U.S. land forces they'd get their arse kick cause you could just 'stonk' the crap out of the area.

who cares who's got the bigger military? it shouldn't matter. if people weren't such stupid, warmongering assholes, we'd have nothing to worry about. right? everyone could get along.


but of course it's not that easy is it??

Practically the same...if you see the underside of most things, they generally say TAIWAN, not China.

Erm, that just means that Taiwan has a massive amount of exports to the US, it does not mean that America has any sort of political or economic control over Taipei.

I say, invade Taiwan and make it a US state. We're all about pre-emptive war these days right?

I mean some day, taiwan could become a hotbed for terrorist activity, it might even end up having WMDs. We must stop this now before it is too late.

And I call dibs on the hot Taiwanese women.

Okay, I've been through this before, so I've covered a bit of ground after speaking with various military asscociates of my Father (and indeed he himself).
China boasts an on-call military of 200million. Thats 10 soldiers for every man woman and child in Australia. However, while such a number is indeed impressive, it is useless in any form of invasion. Heres why; The decisive factory in most wars isn't technology, training, strategy or numbers. It's logistics. If every soldier requires 1 litre of water a day whilst abroad, the chinese military logistics corps must figure out a way to transport 200 million litres of water a day to every soldier, wherever they may be. Now consider if a soldier eats 500grams of salted meat, 2 potatoes, and a peice of cheese (very liight fare!). That means that China must supply 200 million litres of water, 100 million kilograms of salted meat, 400 million potatoes, and 200 million pieces of cheese to it's troops for every day they spend abroad. Even if they could move that kind of stock effectively, where do you get it from? Lets say the preserved meat was chicken, and 500 grams was equal to 1/4 of a chook. From whence does the chinese government produce 50 million chooks a day?! And we haven't even touched upon how to kill the other guy (weapons, tank repairs/parts, ammunition...) this is just keeping your soldiers alive long enough to be slaughtered by the opposition.

In terms of portage, 1 soldier can carry no more than a week (at absolute most) worth of rations for himself. If you combine this with a supllies truck with every company, then you may be able to increase this by 50% (However, supply trucks are not only very vulnerable in a wartime situation, they are popular targets. So that would give China a week and a half to launch it's forces, conquer the target, then withdraw victoriously back to China (to live on the empty husk of the post-war china economy.

The only other option for China would be to 'pull a Russia' and head off to battle unsure of where food and bullets will be coming from, with the extra motivation to win being that if you defeat the enemy, you get to eat and arm yourself for the next stage. Needless to say, this is not the most spectacular approach.

Even if China did manage to pull it off momentarily, the victim of their onslaught would have enough sense to attack their supply lines and end the affair quickly.

However, a force of that size could be quite useful as a defence force..

I don't really see any immediate reason for the u.s. to go to war with china. And I don't think we'd intervene in the case of a taiwan invasion. At the current time a conventional war with china would favor the u.s. as long as the u.s. did not try to invade. When it comes to holding ground then number's still DOES matter. However I don't see any reason to conquer china anyway and any war could be concluded simply with the containment of the chinese, which appears to currently be a very easy proposition.

However since we are both nuke carrying countries (I'm pretty sure they have nukes) it would end up turning into a cold war scenario since it still appears no one can get around the mutual destruction scenario of the u.s.-soviet conflict.

The US is bound by law to come to the defense of Taiwan. Of course given how weak the rest of the government is compared to our now king-like presidency, the president could just ignore the law.

And you are oversimplifying force projection.
Exactly, its one thing to put 200 million men on foriegn turf. But it is a completely different game putting an army of 200 million men on foreign turf to fight a war. The former are known as refugees, helpless. The latter require constant sustenance via an efficient and secure logistic lifeline. Still, it would be cool if the PLA briefed them with "Brothers of the Peoples Liberation Army! Your mission which you by default have accepted is to conquer Australia (or USA). You will be placed in the country via paradrop with enough supplies for a week. In that week you must crush opposition forces, establish a new government under the peoples rebulic of China, and then return back to China by any means available." Haha, the USA should have taken that approach with Iraq!

I've always understood tha tis one of the major reasons they havent invaded Taiwan, because they dont have the transport capacity to land a big enough force to take the island?
They could probably do it, but it would be very clumbsy. Imagine a fat man struggling to roll over and suffocate the little man next to him, then getting gas and losing his balance, then spending the next few years to nestle his asre back into 'that spot' that it was in before.

Militarily, anywhere China would want to go is blocked by India, an equally large nation, and Russia, historically a nation that wouldn't fucking die.

Okay, I've been through this before, so I've covered a bit of ground after speaking with various military asscociates of my Father (and indeed he himself).
China boasts an on-call military of 200million. Thats 10 soldiers for every man woman and child in Australia. However, while such a number is indeed impressive, it is useless in any form of invasion. Heres why; The decisive factory in most wars isn't technology, training, strategy or numbers. It's logistics. If every soldier requires 1 litre of water a day whilst abroad, the chinese military logistics corps must figure out a way to transport 200 million litres of water a day to every soldier, wherever they may be. Now consider if a soldier eats 500grams of salted meat, 2 potatoes, and a peice of cheese (very liight fare!). That means that China must supply 200 million litres of water, 100 million kilograms of salted meat, 400 million potatoes, and 200 million pieces of cheese to it's troops for every day they spend abroad. Even if they could move that kind of stock effectively, where do you get it from? Lets say the preserved meat was chicken, and 500 grams was equal to 1/4 of a chook. From whence does the chinese government produce 50 million chooks a day?! And we haven't even touched upon how to kill the other guy (weapons, tank repairs/parts, ammunition...) this is just keeping your soldiers alive long enough to be slaughtered by the opposition.

In terms of portage, 1 soldier can carry no more than a week (at absolute most) worth of rations for himself. If you combine this with a supllies truck with every company, then you may be able to increase this by 50% (However, supply trucks are not only very vulnerable in a wartime situation, they are popular targets. So that would give China a week and a half to launch it's forces, conquer the target, then withdraw victoriously back to China (to live on the empty husk of the post-war china economy.

The only other option for China would be to 'pull a Russia' and head off to battle unsure of where food and bullets will be coming from, with the extra motivation to win being that if you defeat the enemy, you get to eat and arm yourself for the next stage. Needless to say, this is not the most spectacular approach.

Even if China did manage to pull it off momentarily, the victim of their onslaught would have enough sense to attack their supply lines and end the affair quickly.

However, a force of that size could be quite useful as a defence force..


This is exactly why the US would kick the ever living snot out of China. The technological discrepancy is about 20 to 30 years or so, and that is HUGE. And so long as the US isn't interested in invading China, the logistical costs amount to ZERO. The US has spent the better part of the last half century building up its ability to push a button and make things die. China has a lot of catching up to do.


And when it comes to industrial capacity you all (not you GPN, the other posters) really are overestimating China's capabilities. Foreign owned or subsidiary corporations in China exporting from China due to cheap labor doesn't constitute military industrial power. The US has got military industrial power in spades.

And another problem China faces along side the pure logistical problems is feeding its own population. China may export quite a bit of industrial product to the US, but the US exports quite a bit of food product to China. And without the US (which is one of the few nations with a sizeable amount of exportable food stuff) if China's food supply gets incinerated then that is pretty much "game over" for China.

China does not want a nuclear war exactly because if the US resorts to a "scorched earth" strategy, China may well be able to win a short term victory but the US can ensure China's eventual long term destruction.



In short China wants nothing to do with military conflict with the US right now. In 50 years we will see. But for at least another 20 years no single nation will come close to matching the US 1-1.

NT

The US has spent the better part of the last half century building up its ability to push a button and make things die.



That's probably the most accurate description of US military policy I have ever heard.

An interesting point: 100% of the world's commercial motherboards (not entirely sure about speciality/commercial mobos, but I'm fairly sure they're the same), and most of its memory, harddrives and other PC components, are made in China/Taiwan.

True, but much more so in Taiwan than China.


A trade embargo would hurt China as well as the US - the US is the biggest consumer of Chinese goods. Not the only, but the biggest, and China isn't exactly over-flowing with the sort of internal consumption and investment needed to suffer the loss of the US when it comes to trade surplus.

As for the US currency - well, that is an issue. In an extreme case, I suppose the currency could temporarily be moved to a fixed rate. The US should have the currency reserves to manage it for a while, although it would wreak havoc with monetary policy. (note: I haven't thought that idea out economically whatsoever, so try not to scream at me like a 12 year old, please)

*snip*
In short China wants nothing to do with military conflict with the US right now. In 50 years we will see. But for at least another 20 years no single nation will come close to matching the US 1-1.
*snip*
Hmm..well I was basically saying that China physically could not invade the US. Not with 200 million men. I mean they could invade in smaller chunks, but that would ruin their one and only advantage of numbers. Mind you, the US would et the royal pants kicked out of it if they tried to invade China, but I don't think they would do that. Not after Vietnam...and Iraq...maybe they would :( .
I would have to disagree on no nation matching the US for another 20 years. I personally believe that the US is at the beginning of the end of it's chapter as master of the world. Times change quickly, it's hard to say who will be running the show in 2026, but it probably won't be the US. Remember, it only takes a day for even the greatest of empires to fall. Why is US on the decline? That is a different thread. Nevertheless, I would put the US as economically challengable within 5 years. Militarily is difficult, because no matter how poor the USA gets, they will always have the worlds largest nuclear arsenal. They could very well become a global bully, I don't know. Imagine if the Romans had nukes at their downfall. Imagine if Hitler had nukes at his downfall. What would happen?...getting off topic. Yes China cannot challenge the US, but they don't want to, so no matter anyway.

This is exactly why the US would kick the ever living snot out of China. The technological discrepancy is about 20 to 30 years or so, and that is HUGE. And so long as the US isn't interested in invading China, the logistical costs amount to ZERO. The US has spent the better part of the last half century building up its ability to push a button and make things die. China has a lot of catching up to do.
Not actually true. The PLA now has excellent weapons such as the Type 95. They also have a fair number of short-ranged nuclear missiles, and a vast population, which could be armed up if need be.

You also need to remember that the terrain in China is very, very varied. Your precious M1A2s may be handy in the steppes, but in the mountains, they're pointless.
And when it comes to industrial capacity you all (not you GPN, the other posters) really are overestimating China's capabilities. Foreign owned or subsidiary corporations in China exporting from China due to cheap labor doesn't constitute military industrial power. The US has got military industrial power in spades.
It's not like the Chinese government wouldn't be able to re-tool its factories. All governments have measures to take control of industries in wartime and use them how they will.
And another problem China faces along side the pure logistical problems is feeding its own population. China may export quite a bit of industrial product to the US, but the US exports quite a bit of food product to China. And without the US (which is one of the few nations with a sizeable amount of exportable food stuff) if China's food supply gets incinerated then that is pretty much "game over" for China.
What the Chinese import food-wise is pretty much luxury foods. They can feed their population on rice or leavened bread (yes, in some areas of China, they don't just eat rice!) in an alright fashion. The food would get a bit boring but c'est la vie in a wartime situation.

Also, how the hell do you expect to resupply soldiers in China?

It's huge. And a lot of it is completely unsuitable for any kind of plane landings. You'd need to use trains and lorries to do the supplying. Keeping in mind how easy it is to smash bridges and rail tracks, attrition itself would mean that the US wouldn't have a chance.

As to your incinerating their food idea - that's very, very unwise. Just remember what kind of internation reaction US forces got after using Agent Blue on Vietnamese rice crops, and remember who it actually hurts. The PLA has large food reserves. The average Chinese peasant probably won't.
China does not want a nuclear war exactly because if the US resorts to a "scorched earth" strategy, China may well be able to win a short term victory but the US can ensure China's eventual long term destruction.

In short China wants nothing to do with military conflict with the US right now. In 50 years we will see. But for at least another 20 years no single nation will come close to matching the US 1-1.
China doesn't want conflict full stop.

And having a large army doesn't make the US military unstoppable. You've got to factor in partisan actions, the terrain itself (which in a lot of the places the US has fought in, was awful for tanks) and what the rest of the world thinks of you.

Because the US has very, very few friends in the world at the moment and losing any more would leave you all on your own. The British public doesn't really like Americans, and it would seem that a lot of Aussies are a bit resentful of the Aussie government being under the US' control pretty much.