NationStates Jolt Archive

I am glad to see the US taking accountability for their troops in Iraq.

Seven U.S. marines, sailor charged with murder (http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060621/marine_charges_060621)

Comments?

No comments from me.. but how much is a bag of popcorn with extra butter.. annnd a medium blue slushie?

No comments from me.. but how much is a bag of popcorn with extra butter.. annnd a medium blue slushie?
Don't bother. Busheviks will either avoid this thread completely, or claim that it proves that the US Military is awesome because it managed to convict some of the members it has complete responsibility for after they killed that guy. Furthermore they will argue that this has absolutely nothing to do with the organisational culture of the troops in Iraq, and that no training could have made them act like humans rather than actors from "Valley of the Wolves".

yet proof that US soldiers are held accountable for their actions.
Don't bother. Busheviks will either avoid this thread completely, or claim that it proves that the US Military is awesome because it managed to convict some of the members it has complete responsibility for after they killed that guy. Furthermore they will argue that this has absolutely nothing to do with the organisational culture of the troops in Iraq, and that no training could have made them act like humans rather than actors from "Valley of the Wolves".of course they have to hold them accountable for their actions after such actions are done.

unless you actually do want Thought Police and are for Preventive Procecutions of criminals...

Don't bother. Busheviks will either avoid this thread completely, or claim that it proves that the US Military is awesome because it managed to convict some of the members it has complete responsibility for after they killed that guy. Furthermore they will argue that this has absolutely nothing to do with the organisational culture of the troops in Iraq, and that no training could have made them act like humans rather than actors from "Valley of the Wolves".

I agree. I posted on this earlier and it just plummetted after 2 replies, none of them from the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11209878&postcount=1

of course they have to hold them accountable for their actions after such actions are done.
I don't think you understand. I want the training in the US Military be of such quality that people with the tendency to commit crimes like these are either reeducated or screened out.
Now all they do is teach potentially dangerous people (among others) how to use a gun.

I think throwing these young men into jail during atime of war is wrong. We should being doing the oppsite and start killing them like they killed our two boys.

I think throwing these young men into jail during atime of war is wrong. We should being doing the oppsite and start killing them like they killed our two boys.
Well that was random...

I don't think you understand. I want the training in the US Military be of such quality that people with the tendency to commit crimes like these are either reeducated or screened out.
Now all they do is teach potentially dangerous people (among others) how to use a gun.
unfortunatly, that goes into the area of Thought Police. how would you Identify these people? how would you know how they would react to the training? Add to the fact that the enemy is not a member of the nation's armed forces, so there is no way to know who's your enemy untill you are shot at. and even then you have to pick out the one man holding the gun while they are surrounded by civilians.

believe it or not, the US military does hold strict standards to their soldiers to follow.

while I do support the US military, I am also glad to see them punnishing those that break their code of conduct.

If they're found guilty, then I'm sure they'll find the inside of Fort Leavenworth to be quite "uncomfortable" to say the least.

I don't think you understand. I want the training in the US Military be of such quality that people with the tendency to commit crimes like these are either reeducated or screened out.
Now all they do is teach potentially dangerous people (among others) how to use a gun.

So, in other words, you want to hold the actions of some alledged murderers as representative of the hundreds of thousands of military personnel?

Notice I used alledged as the trial hasn't even started whereas you used convicted. No, no bias there.

I agree. I posted on this earlier and it just plummetted after 2 replies, none of them from the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11209878&postcount=1

Perhaps it's because you've already convicted them based on one news report before the trial has even begun.

Perhaps it's because you claimed the 101st will try the "orders from above" line when that's normally the domain of the Abu Garaib tin foilers.

So, in other words, you want to hold the actions of some alledged murderers as representative of the hundreds of thousands of military personnel?

Hey, if it's a fashionable social gathering to hold the actions of some insurgents and terrorists as representative of the billions of Muslims...

Notice I used alledged as the trial hasn't even started whereas you used convicted. No, no bias there.

Note. All but one of the accused confessed.

Hey, if it's a fashionable social gathering to hold the actions of some insurgents and terrorists as representative of the billions of Muslims...


I guarantee I can find more Muslims that support the insurgents than US troops that condone the murder of civilians.

Hey, if it's a fashionable social gathering to hold the actions of some insurgents and terrorists as representative of the billions of Muslims...


I bet I can find more Muslims that support the terrorists than I can find US troops that condone the murder of innocent civilians though.

They committed a crime, they deserve to be punished for it.

Is this about the one marine who finished off a badly wounded iraqi enemy combatant on the bridge? (Not in the mosque)


Due process.....they've been indicted, not convicted. The truth will out, although If it's where the marine finished off the mortally wounded LSH, give him a slap on the wrist...seriously, that's messed up.

Hey, if it's a fashionable social gathering to hold the actions of some insurgents and terrorists as representative of the billions of Muslims...

So you're saying what's good for the goose? Are you claiming it's now acceptable to do that? Is the "but they're doing it too" defense now considered valid?


Note. All but one of the accused confessed.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but an uncited news report that isn't on CNN or Yahoo doesn't convince me.

If/when they're found guilty, then they deserve all the punishment as required by law.

So you're saying what's good for the goose? Are you claiming it's now acceptable to do that? Is the "but they're doing it too" defense now considered valid?

Do you note this distinct irony zipping past when bitching about the "Good for the Goose" Defense? Especially when it's been used many times to excuse and apologize for the questionable or outright outrageous actions taken by the military under the direction of the Bush Administration?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but an uncited news report that isn't on CNN or Yahoo doesn't convince me.

If/when they're found guilty, then they deserve all the punishment as required by law.

ABC News also said they confessed, or are they too liberal for your tastes? Going to wait until FOX News states the obvious?

Oh, and Premeditated Murder is a Capital Offense under the UCMJ. They'll fry. No vacation in Levenworth.

I guarantee I can find more Muslims that support the insurgents than US troops that condone the murder of civilians.
That wouldn't surprise me either. Your point?

Do you note this distinct irony zipping past when bitching about the "Good for the Goose" Defense? Especially when it's been used many times to excuse and apologize for the questionable or outright outrageous actions taken by the military under the direction of the Bush Administration?

So you do consider the "they're doing it too" defense valid. Just checking.



ABC News also said they confessed, or are they too liberal for your tastes? Going to wait until FOX News states the obvious?

Oh, and Premeditated Murder is a Capital Offense under the UCMJ. They'll fry. No vacation in Levenworth.

Who's "also". So far you've only named them w/o a link. You stated CNN didn't state it. I stated that neither did Yahoo.

Nice to know you have to go straight for the insults when questioned.

They may or may not "fry". That's up to the courts. I'll note this for the next death penalty thread.

Well the way I see it, the best way to get the Busheviks off their asses is to make sure your thread attracts a poster they love to hate, and with a little bit of luck, they'll get blindsided by their own simmering rage. Hey presto, they at least own up to acknowledging what's going on in the world, even if their true motivations are dangling for everyone to see.

*insert nominal gag based on acronymic dysphoria here*

So you do consider the "they're doing it too" defense valid. Just checking.

Unlike the countless Americans who think it's a hot new dance craze to believe every single Muslim man woman and child are all part of a theocratic terrorist Borg hivemind, I know better than to assume that every member of the Armed Forces are soulless jackbooted thugs.

I'm more a student of "You Reap What You Sow," "You Made Your Bed Now Lie in it," and "What Goes Around Comes Around."

Who's "also". So far you've only named them w/o a link. You stated CNN didn't state it. I stated that neither did Yahoo.

Nice to know you have to go straight for the insults when questioned.

They may or may not "fry". That's up to the courts. I'll note this for the next death penalty thread.

As you might have noted, the CNN story is old, before the accused confessed. If you watch visual media the murder charges are a hot topic now with the addition of the confessions.

Unlike the countless Americans who think it's a hot new dance craze to believe every single Muslim man woman and child are all part of a theocratic terrorist Borg hivemind, I know better than to assume that every member of the Armed Forces are soulless jackbooted thugs.

I'm more a student of "You Reap What You Sow," "You Made Your Bed Now Lie in it," and "What Goes Around Comes Around."

That's odd since you're the one to my critique of NL using a stereotype. Why would that be?



As you might have noted, the CNN story is old, before the accused confessed. If you watch visual media the murder charges are a hot topic now with the addition of the confessions.

And yet it isn't on the Yahoo story was less than an hour old. Being that I don't watch television, I don't watch visual media. I'm asking for a cite. I've recently been accused of "making things up" when I don't provide direct links. I'ld just like to see it from a source when it isn't being reported elsewhere.

That's odd since you're the one to my critique of NL using a stereotype. Why would that be?

Because the It's An Isolated Incident™ defense is rather popular when it comes to explaining how soldiers can fuck up severely, especially in a war that's much about public image and persuasion more than tactical objectives. And the most fervent advocates of this defense tend to hold a Doublethought at the same time that each and every Muslim are all the same.

And yet it isn't on the Yahoo story was less than an hour old. Being that I don't watch television, I don't watch visual media. I'm asking for a cite. I've recently been accused of "making things up" when I don't provide direct links. I'ld just like to see it from a source when it isn't being reported elsewhere.

I'm sure one or more will come out with details of the confessions.

Unlike the countless Americans who think it's a hot new dance craze to believe every single Muslim man woman and child are all part of a theocratic terrorist Borg hivemind, I know better than to assume that every member of the Armed Forces are soulless jackbooted thugs.


The only people it would appear to be making that assumption are the 88ers. I certainly haven't made any statements such as that, if you are referring to me.

unfortunatly, that goes into the area of Thought Police.
I'm afraid freedom of thought is not something for soldiers. If you want to think for yourself, the army of any country probably isn't the place for you.

Judging by what sort of things a military sends its soldiers to do, I would hope that they do whatever they can to make sure the people they send are properly qualified.
Which includes IMHO outlawing all uses of any sort of derogatory language towards Iraqis for example. If all these people are is "some Hajj", then it shouldn't surprise that their lives aren't exactly valued by US Soldiers.

So, in other words, you want to hold the actions of some alledged murderers as representative of the hundreds of thousands of military personnel?
No, I want the organisation in charge of their lives to take responsibility. What happens to the rest of the personnel there is not really important, as long as a proper organisational culture, conveyed through proper training, is put in place.
But then, persecution complexes can be fun too.

Notice I used alledged as the trial hasn't even started whereas you used convicted. No, no bias there.
As was said, they pretty much admitted it. You can doubt the news article, but as far as I am concerned, then you can also deny that these people are charged, or that they exist at all.

If they are found guilty they deserve to be punished just like any other criminal...in fact because they are military they deserve harsher treatment IMO because they are letting there own brothers down by their actions .
not to mention the country they represent...and also by their actions ..they will cause more of their countymen to become targets for jihadist and America haters .

And they are being accused of dragging an innocent man out and shooting him and planting evidence to make it look like it was a IED planter they shot..

What possible motive ..if true ..could they have ?

What possible motive ..if true ..could they have ?
They tried to pressure him to tell them where and when bombs would be planted. Apparently he really didn't know, but at any rate he wouldn't tell them.
Presumably they got angry and one of them just clicked. And being the good comrades that they are, they all covered it up together.

Just one possible scenario.

Here's some interesting background to the stories about the possible Haditha massacre being investigated:
'Feral' conditions (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5098634.stm)
It is an intensely dangerous place for the Americans, and the battle-weary men of Kilo Company - the unit which included the marines accused of the massacre - had lost a lot of men there.

And they were operating under disturbing circumstances.

Kilo Company's headquarters were three miles north of Haditha, at a vast dam across the Euphrates. It is a big target, because it supplies power to much of southern Iraq.

Four hundred men of the First Marine regiment were based in this decaying rabbit-warren. Conditions were so disgusting, many just moved out.

They set up these unofficial shacks alongside it. Conditions at the dam have been described as "feral".

Oliver Poole is one of the few reporters to have been there, shortly after the alleged massacre. He was shocked by these strange, primitive huts, which lacked even basic hygiene.

"You walked in and the first words were 'F off', and they were ripping pieces of wood apart to feed the fire," he said. "You could see the conditions in which they lived. And they were filthy. It was disgusting."

There seemed to him to be no real discipline.

"The fact that the officers had let conditions deteriorate to the level in which where people living in such basic environment, that says something," he said. "Where were the officers keeping the standards that the US military keeps in the field?"
If this is the conditions the troops are living in, things have deteriorated markedly. Blame needs to go further up, cause you can't expect ppl to live like this and still maintain a sense of discipline when under fire.
Big question: Where's the public (and media) outrage over this?

Big question: Where's the public (and media) outrage over this?
Don't criticise the military! That's teh liberal! They were a few bad apples, just like all the other few bad apples!

Support the troops!

Here's some interesting background to the stories about the possible Haditha massacre being investigated:
'Feral' conditions (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5098634.stm)

If this is the conditions the troops are living in, things have deteriorated markedly. Blame needs to go further up, cause you can't expect ppl to live like this and still maintain a sense of discipline when under fire.
Big question: Where's the public (and media) outrage over this?


Hamster you ever been in the army ? Feral conditions is what you train in and live in and fight in . Not a dance hall.

7 guys commited a crime out of 150,000 or more...conditions MY ASS ..

WTF you think they do out in a war zone throw cocktail parties ?

No excuses for criminal actions only rationalizations and premeditation .

They should get a firing squad if guilty . right against the guys wall they drug out and killed .


You know what ? I copied your post and will attatch it to the next E-mail I send My nephew and godson in Iraq...they should get a great luagh out of it .

I'm afraid freedom of thought is not something for soldiers. If you want to think for yourself, the army of any country probably isn't the place for you.

Judging by what sort of things a military sends its soldiers to do, I would hope that they do whatever they can to make sure the people they send are properly qualified.
Which includes IMHO outlawing all uses of any sort of derogatory language towards Iraqis for example. If all these people are is "some Hajj", then it shouldn't surprise that their lives aren't exactly valued by US Soldiers.


No, I want the organisation in charge of their lives to take responsibility. What happens to the rest of the personnel there is not really important, as long as a proper organisational culture, conveyed through proper training, is put in place.
But then, persecution complexes can be fun too.

Ah, vagaries. What do you consider a "porper organisational culture"? What the hell does that even mean besides "I don't like it so they should do it different"?


As was said, they pretty much admitted it. You can doubt the news article, but as far as I am concerned, then you can also deny that these people are charged, or that they exist at all.

As was said citing one news report on TV that had not been in any other report. Once you get past your typical hate on, you might have noticed that I DIDN'T deny that ABC said it on TV but requested it from other sources to confirm when NO OTHER source said anything about it at the time.

But of course it's easier just to assume they're guilty and that any possible defense of them (even saying innocent before guilty) is indicative of denying that anything at all happened, isn't it?