NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories

Snape's not evil. Or if he is, after 6 books of Dumbledore telling us that he knows Snape isn't evil, and that he trusts Snape, Rowling's gonna come off as portraying Dumbledore as a senile old fool. And I'm going to be mad.

Is it possible there was some kind of deception involved? Magical cloning, alternation, illusion?


Snape has always seemed a bit secretive, creepy maybe, but not one who would deign to murderous betrayal.

NT

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.

I think he was under- crap, I can't believe I can't remember it- you know, the Unforgivable Curse the make speople do what you want. And I'm too lazy to go look it up.

really? I thought she copied it all off the worst witch stories.

they said they were for girls but I enjoyed them as a kid =)

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.
Feel the rage... I have too short of an attention span to sit through those long, long, loooonnnng descriptions of Tolkien's. I've never gotten all the way through the series, though I've tried two or three times.

my flatmate was telling me that there is some dialogue a short time before dumbledore is killed that makes her think that dumbledore is deliberately sacrificing himself for the greater good and has arranged with snape previously that he is to kill him. there may be a plan to reincarnate or resurrect him. don't know where it is or what is said and i don't own a copy of the book myself so i can't find it for you i'm afraid. nor do i have a memory so i can't recall it.

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories
I think you missed some key parts in the book..

really? I thought she copied it all off the worst witch stories.

they said they were for girls but I enjoyed them as a kid =)
Who said they were for girls? I always thought it was the guys who got so obssessed about HP. Like dressing up in those weird glasses and stuff.

my flatmate was telling me that there is some dialogue a short time before dumbledore is killed that makes her think that dumbledore is deliberately sacrificing himself for the greater good and has arranged with snape previously that he is to kill him. there may be a plan to reincarnate or resurrect him. don't know where it is or what is said and i don't own a copy of the book myself so i can't find it for you i'm afraid. nor do i have a memory so i can't recall it.
I think it was something like that as well. I think it's an integral part of the overall plan.

I think you missed some key parts in the book..
Hehehe, yeah, Lexington did you even read the book?

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories
it's Rowling's books...
but my theory is that Dumbledore isn't dead. but that it was Peter Pettigrew that died.

facts to support that theory...
1) Dumbledore and Peter both had the same injured arm. remember, Peter gave his arm for Voldemort to return, and while Dumbledore said his arm was hurt destorying the first artifact, he never said HOW it was destroyed.

2) the overuse of the Polyjuice Potion in the previous books. so why not to continue using this item or the idea to change a person's shape. remember, Barty Jr, used a transfiguration spell on his father's body. Animagus changes forms, and Tonks can also shapeshift at will. so the idea of a spell that permantly changed Peter to Dumbledore is not too far off.

3) Severus Snape seemed to study Dumbledore before killing him... what was he looking for.

4) this time, Dumbledore seemed different than the other books. more showy than before.

5) when drinking the water to get the locket, the begging seemed more like Peter than anything else. even when Dumbledore begged Snape at the end...

6) Why Peter? Remember what Dumbledore told Harry at the end of Book 3. When a Wizard saves/spares the life of another wizard, a tie (or bond) exsists between them. Peter owes Harry his life. why else would Peter try to pursuade Voldemort to use another at the beginning of GoF.

7) no matter what, even in the past books, Snape has shown himself to be a Hogswart Teacher. throwing himself between Harry and Remus-as-werewolf even tho if Remus killed Harry, Hermione and Ron, he [Severus] would be blameless for that would provide the perfect exscuse to kill Remus.

8) Harry may know what to look for, but destroying them is not known.

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.

oh and I suppose Gobbos in Tolkeinesque fantasy are wise money laundering dudes, LIKE THEY ARE IN REAL MYTHOLOGY!

On Snape I have no real clue what's going on but I'd like to hear some whacked out theories, anywho wouldn't Dumbledore still be "alive" in his portrait?

I think you missed some key parts in the book..
Yes, tell us what those key parts are. We're all ears... uh... eyes.

it's Rowling's books...
but my theory is that Dumbledore isn't dead. but that it was Peter Pettigrew that died.

facts to support that theory...
1) Dumbledore and Peter both had the same injured arm. remember, Peter gave his arm for Voldemort to return, and while Dumbledore said his arm was hurt destorying the first artifact, he never said HOW it was destroyed.

2) the overuse of the Polyjuice Potion in the previous books. so why not to continue using this item or the idea to change a person's shape. remember, Barty Jr, used a transfiguration spell on his father's body. Animagus changes forms, and Tonks can also shapeshift at will. so the idea of a spell that permantly changed Peter to Dumbledore is not too far off.

3) Severus Snape seemed to study Dumbledore before killing him... what was he looking for.

4) this time, Dumbledore seemed different than the other books. more showy than before.

5) when drinking the water to get the locket, the begging seemed more like Peter than anything else. even when Dumbledore begged Snape at the end...

6) Why Peter? Remember what Dumbledore told Harry at the end of Book 3. When a Wizard saves/spares the life of another wizard, a tie (or bond) exsists between them. Peter owes Harry his life. why else would Peter try to pursuade Voldemort to use another at the beginning of GoF.

7) no matter what, even in the past books, Snape has shown himself to be a Hogswart Teacher. throwing himself between Harry and Remus-as-werewolf even tho if Remus killed Harry, Hermione and Ron, he [Severus] would be blameless for that would provide the perfect exscuse to kill Remus.

8) Harry may know what to look for, but destroying them is not known.
I like you. How did you connect all those things? But I don't think that there is a spell that can permenantly change someone. I think somewhere in the books it refutes that.

I can't believe nobody's done this yet, but....
SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!!!!! <-hightlight for spoiler :D

I like you. How did you connect all those things? But I don't think that there is a spell that can permenantly change someone. I think somewhere in the books it refutes that.go look for it. nothing is mentioned about permenantly changing shapes... then again, if there is something, Dumbledore had done things against the rules (making unauthorized Portkeys, striking the Minister... etc...

the best theory is my Sister's...

the fact that Ron and Herminone (and most of Hogwarts infact) are suddenly "Snogging" is because of the Dementor's Mist. want info on the mist, read Half Blood again... specifically the first chapter when the two ministers meet. ;)

I can't believe nobody's done this yet, but....
SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!!!!! <-hightlight for spoiler :D
Kills? or puts him out of his misery... for all we know, Dumbledore could've been dying by what was in that pool.

go look for it. nothing is mentioned about permenantly changing shapes... then again, if there is something, Dumbledore had done things against the rules (making unauthorized Portkeys, striking the Minister... etc...

Aha, but there are things in the real world which can change peoples appearance permanantly, all you'd need to do is charm it to make it stronger.

my flatmate was telling me that there is some dialogue a short time before dumbledore is killed that makes her think that dumbledore is deliberately sacrificing himself for the greater good and has arranged with snape previously that he is to kill him.
True: remember that Hagrid heard Snape and Dumbledore arguing but did not know what about. Also, Snape's last words to Harry -- were they a taunt or a last lesson when he tells Harry he MUST learn to cast silently so people can't counter him?

there may be a plan to reincarnate or resurrect him.

No need, really -- all the dead headmasters join the pictures on the wall in the headmaster's office. He'll be an animated portrait now... part of Hogwarts forever.

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories


Well 1st, I think ya kinda ruined it for anyone who sees this thread and isn't finished with teh book....oh well don't affect me.


Also, if you remember at the beginning he made that Blood Bond or something with Malfoy's mother that he'd help malfoy no matter what.

Heh....Lord of the Rings

Read The Norse Myths and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Tolkein is.

HE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.


Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.

Okay, I know this may sound weird, but I did some research on the topic and I discovered many things. The least of which that convinced was a quote from Sirius. He stated that "once a Death Eater, always a Death Eater." HE had proof, his brother, Regulus, who happens to be R.A.B., yeah, backed out of his servitude to Voldemort.
He was killed.
Okay, only a Death Eater calls Voldemort 'The Dark Lord', right?
Well, who ALWAYS, without fail, calls Voldemort 'The Dark Lord'?
Snape.
I mean, most of the things that Snape said to Harry that Harry was told to beleive by Dumbledore had put even Lupin, (practical, believe Dumbledore at all costs, Lupin) in shock! He was STUNNED when Harry told him that Snape told Dumbledore that he was sorry for killing James and Lilly!!!!!
Lupin was shocked.
Now, to sum it up, who would believe you if you said you had turned a 180* in the very way you see life and how it should be treated with no proof whatsoever of it?
Dumbledore did.

Who said they were for girls? I always thought it was the guys who got so obssessed about HP. Like dressing up in those weird glasses and stuff.

I'm offended. I'm a girl and I do that every time a new book comes out. I've tried doing it for the movies but my parents said that was too eccentric...

I like you. How did you connect all those things? But I don't think that there is a spell that can permenantly change someone. I think somewhere in the books it refutes that.Oh, forgot to answer your question on how I connected those things together.

Silly story... but at the time I was reading HP... I was also watching Boogiepop Phantom. great anime btw. and they tied all the seperate stories together in a way similar to how Rowlings was writing her books.

in BP, the second episode would be about a different person who would meet the main character of the first episode. so a chance scene in the first episode is repeated but in the other person's point of view. the third episode would have the main character of that episode walking past the characters of the second... and so on and so on...

so in the first book, we're introduced to everyone.
in CoS, we see Harry using parseltounge... the same thing he did with the snake at the zoo.
PoA introduced the wolloping willow that demolished the car in book two
GoF reintroduced us to the Pollyjuice potion from CoS, and started showing the ineffectiveness of the Invisibility Cloak.
OotP had harry using spells learned in GoF as well as retouching the ties between him and Voldemort that were mentioned in the first book as well as Cos
HBP, again had the Polyjuice potion, marks the return of Peter from his absence from OotP, the cabinet mentioned in OotP, the hand artifact from CoS, the DA from OotP, and Tom Riddle from Cos. so more and more ties from the previous books are coming together.

I can't believe no one has mentioned this:
Snape could be bad, or good but it doesn't matter because he told Narcissa (Malfoy's mother) that he would kill Dumbledore to save Malfoy. He did this, presumably to convince Bellatrix and Narcissa of his "evilness". Maybe he thought that Malfoy would be successful in killing Dumbledore, and then Snape would never have to. Well, i like that theory about Dumbledore coming back, or that he isn't dead in the first place and that Wormtail is playing him. I was upset when I read that chapter.
Also, what's going to happen to Hogwarts as we know it?

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.

What did she lift from Tolkien? I can't recall anything directly unless it's Voldemort's not being corporeal?

two words: Polyjuice Potion. Seriously, it's not beyond the realm of possibilities.

Okay, I know this may sound weird, but I did some research on the topic and I discovered many things. The least of which that convinced was a quote from Sirius. He stated that "once a Death Eater, always a Death Eater." HE had proof, his brother, Regulus, who happens to be R.A.B., yeah, backed out of his servitude to Voldemort.
He was killed.
Okay, only a Death Eater calls Voldemort 'The Dark Lord', right?
Well, who ALWAYS, without fail, calls Voldemort 'The Dark Lord'?
Snape.
I mean, most of the things that Snape said to Harry that Harry was told to beleive by Dumbledore had put even Lupin, (practical, believe Dumbledore at all costs, Lupin) in shock! He was STUNNED when Harry told him that Snape told Dumbledore that he was sorry for killing James and Lilly!!!!!
Lupin was shocked.
Now, to sum it up, who would believe you if you said you had turned a 180* in the very way you see life and how it should be treated with no proof whatsoever of it?
Dumbledore did.Ahh... but don't forget that Snape also gave Dumbledore information about Voldemort as well.

and was R.A.B. killed for backing out of the Death Eaters, or for stealing Voldemort's vessel.

I'm offended. I'm a girl and I do that every time a new book comes out. I've tried doing it for the movies but my parents said that was too eccentric...
Hey, I'm a girl too. Though I'd do more Hermione than Harry.

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.

Has no one told you about how all stories are copies? There are only so many conflicts (man vs. man, man versus himself, man vs. nature) Also, Tolkien took a lot of things from mythology, and so did Rowling. I've read both and the HP series are better written and more intelligently designed.

I can't believe no one has mentioned this:
Snape could be bad, or good but it doesn't matter because he told Narcissa (Malfoy's mother) that he would kill Dumbledore to save Malfoy. He did this, presumably to convince Bellatrix and Narcissa of his "evilness". Maybe he thought that Malfoy would be successful in killing Dumbledore, and then Snape would never have to. Well, i like that theory about Dumbledore coming back, or that he isn't dead in the first place and that Wormtail is playing him. I was upset when I read that chapter.
Also, what's going to happen to Hogwarts as we know it?wrong... the vow was to complete Draco's task if he [Draco] could not accomplish it. (the exact wording used I believe) thus even if it was Peter Playing Dumbledore, as long as Draco tries and fails, then Snape would be forced to accomplish it.

Remember, the importance is how it was phrased. not just what was said. ;)

I like you. How did you connect all those things? But I don't think that there is a spell that can permenantly change someone. I think somewhere in the books it refutes that.

Well... but remember, "Mad Eye Moody" was definitely NOT himself in GoF.

wrong... the vow was to complete Draco's task if he [Draco] could not accomplish it. (the exact wording used I believe) thus even if it was Peter Playing Dumbledore, as long as Draco tries and fails, then Snape would be forced to accomplish it.

Remember, the importance is how it was phrased. not just what was said. ;)
Just to clarify, are you saying that since Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore, not Pettigrew playing Dumblore, Snape would have to kill the real Dumbledore, even if Dracos had succeeded in killing Pettigrew-Dumbledore?

wrong... the vow was to complete Draco's task if he [Draco] could not accomplish it. (the exact wording used I believe) thus even if it was Peter Playing Dumbledore, as long as Draco tries and fails, then Snape would be forced to accomplish it.

Remember, the importance is how it was phrased. not just what was said. ;)

well sorta,
Snape vowed to watch over Draco as he tried to kill Dumbledore, protect him from harm, and then if he Draco fails to Snape would "carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform.."

Hey, I'm a girl too. Though I'd do more Hermione than Harry.

I'm partial to Ginny myself. Though I have my Minerva moments.

I'm partial to Ginny myself. Though I have my Minerva moments.
I find that I like all of Rowlings characters, well you know, the one's we're "supposed" to like. she writes strong characters that readers know and love. but definitely ginny wins. but i do like the little love thang that's going on between ron and hermione...

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.
Maybe, but it's still an enjoyable series. It doesn't all have to be original.

I still think there's something weird about Dumbledore's death and Snape's involvement.

well sorta,
Snape vowed to watch over Draco as he tried to kill Dumbledore, protect him from harm, and then if he Draco fails to Snape would "carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform.."

Just to clarify, are you saying that since Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore, not Pettigrew playing Dumblore, Snape would have to kill the real Dumbledore, even if Dracos had succeeded in killing Pettigrew-Dumbledore?

Answer both at the same time...

yes. so when Draco stood on that rooftop trying to kill (maybe, whom he thought was) Dumbledore, snape 'completed' that task.

after all, even tho he knew what Draco was ordered to do, he did not hear what the Dark Lord told Draco to do. so for all we know, Voldy probably told Snape that he orderd Draco to kill "The Infernal Headmaster of Hogwarts." and for that year (at least) if it was Peter posing as Dumbledore, the Peter would be the "Headmaster of Hogwarts" this of course is speculation due to no real information other second had sources.

I find that I like all of Rowlings characters, well you know, the one's we're "supposed" to like. she writes strong characters that readers know and love. but definitely ginny wins. but i do like the little love thang that's going on between ron and hermione..."snog, snog, snog, snog, snog, snog..." :D

What did she lift from Tolkien? I can't recall anything directly unless it's Voldemort's not being corporeal?

Maybe Voldemort is really Sauron.......:p

Well... but remember, "Mad Eye Moody" was definitely NOT himself in GoF.
and they did actually show him drinking from his flask and stealing stuff from Snape's office.

and didn't you wonder (as I did) the lack of the Maurader's Map in this last book?

I disagree with some of these theories. Dumbledore must have died, it had to be him, because Fawkes left the school (paraphrase: ) never to return. More importantly, for someone to have been impersonating Dumbledore when he died, he would have had to change BEFORE he took Harry fo the Horcrux. However, most of the magic he performed in the cave was probably very advanced, and few others could do it. Also, he tells Harry in the fourth book that no spell can reawaken the dead. However, I do like the theory that R.A.B is Regulus Black. I am not sure of what will happen to Snape, though

Maybe Voldemort is really Sauron.......:p
oh gods... just don't say Dobby is Golem/Smegol. :headbang:

"snog, snog, snog, snog, snog, snog..." :D
They are growing up, what do most 17 year olds do?

Maybe Voldemort is really Sauron.......:p

I love it!
The best plot twist in the history of Plot twists...

Dumbledore: I'm sorry harry, but I am not who I said I am
Harry: ?
Dumbledore: I am...
Sauron: Sauron, and now my evil Orc minions will kill you and your crappy acting friends!

oh gods... just don't say Dobby is Golem/Smegol. :headbang:



Nah, he's Sam! ;)

I disagree with some of these theories. Dumbledore must have died, it had to be him, because Fawkes left the school (paraphrase: ) never to return. More importantly, for someone to have been impersonating Dumbledore when he died, he would have had to change BEFORE he took Harry fo the Horcrux. However, most of the magic he performed in the cave was probably very advanced, and few others could do it. Also, he tells Harry in the fourth book that no spell can reawaken the dead. However, I do like the theory that R.A.B is Regulus Black. I am not sure of what will happen to Snape, though
but did you ever see Dumbledore interacting with Fawkes during that year? I don't (but will re-read it to be sure.) and remember, couldn't Dumbledore tell fawkes to stay at the school untill such an event occures?

so perhaps it was Peter impersonating Dumbledore for the entire year.

They are growing up, what do most 17 year olds do?

oh y'know I usually get up about 2-3 in afternoon, have some cereal and then watch TV til I go to bed at 5AM.

Why what did you think a 17 year old did?

oh y'know I usually get up about 2-3 in afternoon, have some cereal and then watch TV til I go to bed at 5AM.

Why what did you think a 17 year old did?

Well, this is just an observation...but there is a large majority of teenagers snogging in the world. at least at my school...

but did you ever see Dumbledore interacting with Fawkes during that year? I don't (but will re-read it to be sure.) and remember, couldn't Dumbledore tell fawkes to stay at the school untill such an event occures?

so perhaps it was Peter impersonating Dumbledore for the entire year.


Peter was a rather inept magician (with the exception of him faking his death and blowing up a street block), he could not have performed alot of the magic that dumbledore was shown doing, I bet.

Kills? or puts him out of his misery... for all we know, Dumbledore could've been dying by what was in that pool.
That's what we came up with on the last thread that dealt with this. Dumbledore was dying, and his "please" was not begging to be left alive, but begging to be put out of his misery.

The Polyjuice theory is decent, but it's easier to just wait for book 7. :P

Of course, if it hasn't been noted yet, you'll remember that at the end, Snape is running away with Draco, which ties back to the Unbreakable Vow. Just a note.

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.
its hard to not see similarities in any fantasy book seeing as how congested that genre is, now the characters definitely have similarities for instance dementors show huge similarities with Draghkari(sp) and most heroes in the books share the same qualities, but as long as the story is good who cares?

Peter was a rather inept magician (with the exception of him faking his death and blowing up a street block), he could not have performed alot of the magic that dumbledore was shown doing, I bet.what spells did Dumbledore do that might have been out of Peter's Range during that year in Hogswort?

Appigate?
we are only assuming that using the Pensieve is hard, but what if it wasn't?
a basic fire spell?

remember that Peter was only Inept when compared to James, Lilly, Sirius, and Lupin. Peter did master becoming an Animagus, a feat everyone says is extremly hard, so he's not really that inept when compared to other wizards.

I believe Dumbledore died by Snape's hand as evinced by several clues:

1) Narcissa obliges Snape to undergo the Unbreakable Bond in order to save Draco. Why? So that Draco will not be forced to kill Dumbledore when the Death Eaters' plans come to fruition (i.e., when Hogwarts is invaded via the cabinet by way of Borgin and Burke's). Had Snape killed Peter instead of Dumbledore, Severus would have died.
2) The recipient of the Polyjuice Potion would revert to their original shape one hour after the substance was taken. Some rules cannot (or at least, should not for continuity sake) be broken.
3) Fawkes disappears. I do not believe his spectacular departure was in order to disguise some sort of subterfuge.
4) Dumbledore appears in his portrait frame in the headmaster's office. The headmasters thus honoured are deceased.

I believe Dumbledore died by Snape's hand as evinced by several clues:

1) Narcissa obliges Snape to undergo the Unbreakable Bond in order to save Draco. Why? So that Draco will not be forced to kill Dumbledore when the Death Eaters' plans come to fruition (i.e., when Hogwarts is invaded via the cabinet by way of Borgin and Burke's). Had Snape killed Peter instead of Dumbledore, Severus would have died.
2) The recipient of the Polyjuice Potion would revert to their original shape one hour after the substance was taken. Some rules cannot (or at least, should not for continuity sake) be broken.
3) Fawkes disappears. I do not believe his spectacular departure was in order to disguise some sort of subterfuge.
4) Dumbledore appears in his portrait frame in the headmaster's office. The headmasters thus honoured are deceased.

I agree, particularly on the last- the portrait would not have appeared if the real Dumbledore had not died.

The concensus is that R.A.B. IS Sirius' brother- JK is not forthcoming about it, but it makes perfect sense- no one knows why the death eaters were ordered to kill one of their own, but the note in the locket indicates a person who knows his days are numbered; and the missing horcrux/locket is in Sirius house which his brother would have had access to. (I believe it is in book 4- when Harry, Ron, and co are cleaning the new HQ of tOotP, they find a "heavy locket no one can open" hidden in all the stuff)

Finally, I believe Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders- he was not pleading Snape to spare him, he was pleading that he go thru with whatever plan Snape did NOT want to go through with.

(I believe it is in book 4- when Harry, Ron, and co are cleaning the new HQ of tOotP, they find a "heavy locket no one can open" hidden in all the stuff)

Ah yes but the Horcrux is said to have the Serpent of Slytherin on it, there's no mention of any serpent on the locket they find in Ootp.

what spells did Dumbledore do that might have been out of Peter's Range during that year in Hogswort?

Appigate?
we are only assuming that using the Pensieve is hard, but what if it wasn't?
a basic fire spell?

remember that Peter was only Inept when compared to James, Lilly, Sirius, and Lupin. Peter did master becoming an Animagus, a feat everyone says is extremly hard, so he's not really that inept when compared to other wizards.


Dumbledore breaks through enchantments set by Voldemort himself, such as uncovering an invisible boat, ect. Peter may have known where to find the Horcrux, but I doubt he could have broken the enchantments (with the exception of the blood sacrifice) Also, becoming an Animagus is probably only a little harder than learning to apperate. I'm pretty sure the only person who said anything about its difficulty was Hermione, 3 years ago when asked about them. Also, Rita Skeeter becomes an Animagus, and though we don't know for sure, the fact that she is basically a tabloid journalist, and relies on magical objects for the most part does not does not bode well for the probability that she is talented in anything other than writing.

Another thing to keep in mind: Dumbledore's primary purpose at this point is to defeat Voldemort, in any way that is necessary, and he believes that Harry is the only person who will be able to accomplish that end. He can still assist Harry from the portrait, particularly with the assistance of a stand-in who is intimate with his plans. For that matter, Peter and the unnecessary Polyjuice Potion is not the only option for a Dumbledore Clone, and Snape is not the only possible conspirator Dumbledore might choose for a 'secret plan'.

There's Dumbledore's brother.

Ch. 9 of OotP, Madeye Moody is showing Harry a photo of the Old Order. "That's Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke..."

then:

Ch. 16 of OotP, the DA is being formed at the Hog's Head.
'The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and a beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.'

and then:

Ch. 20 of HBP, in Dumbledore's Pensieve memory, Voldemort is applying for the position of teaching Defense Against Dark Arts. Dumbledore is able to list all of the cohorts that are waiting for Voldemort at the Hog's Head, and when Voldemort remarks on his omniscience, Dumbledore quips, "Oh, no, merely friendly with the local barmen,"

People that keep saying Peter Pettigrew was a weak wizard seem to forget that it was Peter that brought Voldemort back to corporeal form. Peter may not have written the spell, but I'm sure it was some pretty powerful magic, and not something that just any wizard would have been able to do.

Maybe it was Peter, transfigured to look like Dumbledore?

I'm gonna take up the opposite stance, just so that someone has. I personally think that Dumbledore is dead and that Snape was under orders from him to kill him rather than die himself.

But still.

1) Throughout that particular book Dumbledore refers to love and sacrifice as greater powers than any evil. Perhaps Dumbledore meerly sought to return Snape to the right side, like he had been trying to turn Draco.

2) Dumbledore was hardly in his right mind. The potion he had taken was certainly not good for him. While he appears to be stable, we do not know that he was, in fact, stable, and we have a lot of reason to beleive that he was not in any way in his right mind. Insanity may have driven him to beg for his life (or to be killed). Therefore, to assume that he was begging that Snape kill him so that Snape did not die is not the only rational assumption.

3) Snape was hardly in his right mind. He must have been driven to distraction by the course of that school year. Having realized that Harry had his old potions text could well have pushed him over the edge.

4) Snape gives us a perfectly reasonable explanation for his actions in the first chapter of HBP. While you may read it as an excuse, it does offer a plausible reasons for his actions as an evil character.

5) If what we learned is correct, and Dumbledore's only reason for trusting Snape was that Snape had told him about the prophecy, it's a far sight shy of a good reason to trust him. Dumbledore is a good person, but he has shown that he doesn't understand people as well as he might (in OoTP with his management of Harry), and so he might have decided to trust Snape for all the wrong reasons.

Frankly, I think that all the evidence points to Snape as a good guy, but I'm happy to play devil's advocate.

QUOTE

OMG! I just had that thought reading Ootp a couple of days ago- have you been using mind rays on me?

Hehehe, yeah, Lexington did you even read the book?
yeah i did ive read it twice, but what did i miss?

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories

Snape is EBIL.

And Stumbledore was in suicide-mode, anyway.

And will you stop namin he-who-must-not-be-named??? :mp5:

I'm gonna take up the opposite stance, just so that someone has. I personally think that Dumbledore is dead and that Snape was under orders from him to kill him rather than die himself.

But still.

1) Throughout that particular book Dumbledore refers to love and sacrifice as greater powers than any evil. Perhaps Dumbledore meerly sought to return Snape to the right side, like he had been trying to turn Draco.

2) Dumbledore was hardly in his right mind. The potion he had taken was certainly not good for him. While he appears to be stable, we do not know that he was, in fact, stable, and we have a lot of reason to beleive that he was not in any way in his right mind. Insanity may have driven him to beg for his life (or to be killed). Therefore, to assume that he was begging that Snape kill him so that Snape did not die is not the only rational assumption.

3) Snape was hardly in his right mind. He must have been driven to distraction by the course of that school year. Having realized that Harry had his old potions text could well have pushed him over the edge.

4) Snape gives us a perfectly reasonable explanation for his actions in the first chapter of HBP. While you may read it as an excuse, it does offer a plausible reasons for his actions as an evil character.

5) If what we learned is correct, and Dumbledore's only reason for trusting Snape was that Snape had told him about the prophecy, it's a far sight shy of a good reason to trust him. Dumbledore is a good person, but he has shown that he doesn't understand people as well as he might (in OoTP with his management of Harry), and so he might have decided to trust Snape for all the wrong reasons.

Frankly, I think that all the evidence points to Snape as a good guy, but I'm happy to play devil's advocate.
6. If Snape doesnt help kill Dumbledore, he will break an "unbreakable" vow and die himself.

Another thing to keep in mind: Dumbledore's primary purpose at this point is to defeat Voldemort, in any way that is necessary, and he believes that Harry is the only person who will be able to accomplish that end. He can still assist Harry from the portrait, particularly with the assistance of a stand-in who is intimate with his plans. For that matter, Peter and the unnecessary Polyjuice Potion is not the only option for a Dumbledore Clone, and Snape is not the only possible conspirator Dumbledore might choose for a 'secret plan'.

There's Dumbledore's brother.

Ch. 9 of OotP, Madeye Moody is showing Harry a photo of the Old Order. "That's Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke..."

then:

Ch. 16 of OotP, the DA is being formed at the Hog's Head.
'The barman sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and a beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.'

and then:

Ch. 20 of HBP, in Dumbledore's Pensieve memory, Voldemort is applying for the position of teaching Defense Against Dark Arts. Dumbledore is able to list all of the cohorts that are waiting for Voldemort at the Hog's Head, and when Voldemort remarks on his omniscience, Dumbledore quips, "Oh, no, merely friendly with the local barmen,"
yes but wasnt aberforth arrested for doing illegal magic on a goat?

Heh... Harry Potter...

Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll realize what a crack-ass bitch con artist Rowling is.

SHE BLOODY COPIED EVERYTHING FROM ALL OF THE GOOD CLASSICS.
And when I say everything, I mean NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL IDEA.

Yeah, but it's not as fucking dry as that muther fucker JRR Tolkien's. Even the movies had my gouging my ears. Yes, that is possible.

never mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberforth_Dumbledore

And will you stop namin he-who-must-not-be-named??? :mp5:

Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself. :P

Meh ... I'll wait for the movie.

The Theory...

The green liquid that Dumbledore drunk was the hortcrux. The note was from him; he cast some spells before drinking it and this was to make the note (reading the note as if written by Dumbledore, with this whole theory in mind, makes a hell of a lot of sense). By taking the part of Voldemort's soul into him, he then had to kill it and he was pleading with Snape to kill him. The look of disgust and loathing on Snape's face was for Voldemort inside Dumbledore. I find it hard to believe that not only would Dumbledore have been wrong about Snape all along, but that he'd also suddenly become cowardly and plead for his life. If you read back, he keeps asking for Snape as well. The dark mark was like a "stimulant" and may have been a sign for Dumbledore to come back. Also, when he's talking to Draco Malfoy, Dumbedore keeps closing his eyes and suddenly figuring out parts of the plan; I think this is because Voldemort's memories were starting to come through as the part of Voldemort's soul took him over. Voldemort didn't figure out what Snape was up to because he can't love and doesn't understand the concept so wouldn't be able to comprehend Dumbledore (or anyone) being clever and brave enough to drink his soul and kill themselves for the greater good, the only way to kill that part of Voldemorts soul.

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories
He is not evil. He just had an unhappy childhood. Let's give him all a big hug.

The Theory...

The green liquid that Dumbledore drunk was the hortcrux. The note was from him; he cast some spells before drinking it and this was to make the note (reading the note as if written by Dumbledore, with this whole theory in mind, makes a hell of a lot of sense). By taking the part of Voldemort's soul into him, he then had to kill it and he was pleading with Snape to kill him. The look of disgust and loathing on Snape's face was for Voldemort inside Dumbledore. I find it hard to believe that not only would Dumbledore have been wrong about Snape all along, but that he'd also suddenly become cowardly and plead for his life. If you read back, he keeps asking for Snape as well. The dark mark was like a "stimulant" and may have been a sign for Dumbledore to come back. Also, when he's talking to Draco Malfoy, Dumbedore keeps closing his eyes and suddenly figuring out parts of the plan; I think this is because Voldemort's memories were starting to come through as the part of Voldemort's soul took him over. Voldemort didn't figure out what Snape was up to because he can't love and doesn't understand the concept so wouldn't be able to comprehend Dumbledore (or anyone) being clever and brave enough to drink his soul and kill themselves for the greater good, the only way to kill that part of Voldemorts soul.
maybe but the note was from Regulus Black, Rowling even said...

All right, here's the deal.

1.Dumbledore's no idiot. If he trusts Snape, he has his reasons.

2.Remember, the prophecy is the only reason for Dumbledore's trust that we know of. Doesn't mean it's the only one he has.

3. Everything Dumbledore did was for two interlinked purposes. Kill Voldemort, and protect Harry. Hence the freezing Harry before confronting Snape. He wouldn't put himself in a position to be killed, and thus be unable to protect Harry anymore, without a good reason.

4. After Snape killed his worst enemy, do you really think Voldemort doubts him anymore? No. The result is that Snape is in an ideal position to help Harry.

5. Dumbledore knew he could talk down Malfoy, and between himself and Harry, they could have disarmed Snape, if he hadn't been disarmed while protecting Harry. Hence, he put himself in a position to die.

two words: Polyjuice Potion. Seriously, it's not beyond the realm of possibilities.
It can't be polyjuice because polyjuice reveals the true identity of the person once they are dead and cant drink anymore.

Also, does anyone remember that right before Dumbeldore is killed, when snape arrives on the scene Rowling describes 'a flicker of triumph' flashing across Dumbeldore's features? There must be a plan, if only for that reason.

never mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberforth_DumbledoreInteresting....

and this confirmation adds a whole new level of things...

Hope Aberforth isn't a Deus Ex Machina for the last book.

Dumbledore breaks through enchantments set by Voldemort himself, such as uncovering an invisible boat, ect. Peter may have known where to find the Horcrux, but I doubt he could have broken the enchantments (with the exception of the blood sacrifice) Also, becoming an Animagus is probably only a little harder than learning to apperate. I'm pretty sure the only person who said anything about its difficulty was Hermione, 3 years ago when asked about them. Also, Rita Skeeter becomes an Animagus, and though we don't know for sure, the fact that she is basically a tabloid journalist, and relies on magical objects for the most part does not does not bode well for the probability that she is talented in anything other than writing.
then why isn't there more Animagus's? why need the registration if anyone can do it?

again, we don't know the level of spell knowledge needed to remove an invisiblity cloaked boat.

and just because we don't see Rita using magic doesn't mean she cannot. after all, it took the battle in HBP to see Professor McGonagall do anything other than transfiguration. Just because we don't see them casting spells, doesn't mean they are weak.

then why isn't there more Animagus's? why need the registration if anyone can do it?

again, we don't know the level of spell knowledge needed to remove an invisiblity cloaked boat.

and just because we don't see Rita using magic doesn't mean she cannot. after all, it took the battle in HBP to see Professor McGonagall do anything other than transfiguration. Just because we don't see them casting spells, doesn't mean they are weak.


True.

Oh yeah, and the reason they have a registration is to prevent people from abusing the ability to transform, not necissarily because it is difficult.

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some... but idc i love the series. In the 6th book when Snape murdered Dumbledore i was never convinced that he completely turned to the Dark Side. Maybe he possibly sacrificed Dumbledore to earn Voldemort's respect??? I dont know... do yall have any theories
He likely killed Dumbledore because of a request. Dumbledore was likely already dying (hence, his hand), so, when Snape faced him, Dumbledore's plea was not one for mercy, but for one for Snape to kill him. It was also likely that Dumbledore knew of the pact between Snape and Narcissca...

The snape situation annoyed me. It means either Dumby or Voldy is wrong and I won't accept either of them being wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, and killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders.

The snape situation annoyed me. It means either Dumby or Voldy is wrong and I won't accept either of them being wrong.


I think you're underestimating Snape. Snape is a highly copetent wizard.
You forget Voldemort's view of death. Voldemort doesn't view death as something anyone would desire, even Dumbledore. Hence, he would regard Snape's killing of Dumbledore as an ironclad proof of loyalty.


It was also likely that Dumbledore knew of the pact between Snape and Narcissca.

Actually, that's undeniable. Harry told him, for one thing, and he obviously knew before that.

What really convinces me are the cliches:

Christian cliche: When the "father figure" in a story does something inexplicably stupid that results in his own death, it becomes in retrospect the best thing that could have possibly happened. (Named after the Christian notion of Christ's death for the sins of the world, seen in Merlin, Gandalf, and Obi-wan Kenobi).

Dark Horse cliche:Harmlessly malevolent people either are revealed as unequivocally evil, or become the good side's secret weapon. (An example would be Gollum from Lord of the Rings)

Ok i know that Harry Potter may be considered nerdy by some...

You're worried about appearing nerdy on an internet forum, much less one dedicated to an online political game?

yes but wasnt aberforth arrested for doing illegal magic on a goat?

Maybe he was just having a "magical" time with the goat and made up that story to avoid embarrassment.

1) Throughout that particular book Dumbledore refers to love and sacrifice as greater powers than any evil. Perhaps Dumbledore meerly sought to return Snape to the right side, like he had been trying to turn Draco.

Or perhaps he was trying to use his sacrifice as bait for Voldemort to trust Snape.

2) Dumbledore was hardly in his right mind. The potion he had taken was certainly not good for him. While he appears to be stable, we do not know that he was, in fact, stable, and we have a lot of reason to beleive that he was not in any way in his right mind. Insanity may have driven him to beg for his life (or to be killed). Therefore, to assume that he was begging that Snape kill him so that Snape did not die is not the only rational assumption.

I find the assumption that he was playacting to the last the best assumption, actually. The story of how Dumbledore begged for his life would, I think confirm what I've already said about Voldy's views on death.

3) Snape was hardly in his right mind. He must have been driven to distraction by the course of that school year. Having realized that Harry had his old potions text could well have pushed him over the edge.

I'm not sure if I understand this argument at all.

4) Snape gives us a perfectly reasonable explanation for his actions in the first chapter of HBP. While you may read it as an excuse, it does offer a plausible reasons for his actions as an evil character.

You still have the fact that Snape didn't kill Harry. Lucius tried to, and he was also under the guise of a good person.

5) If what we learned is correct, and Dumbledore's only reason for trusting Snape was that Snape had told him about the prophecy, it's a far sight shy of a good reason to trust him. Dumbledore is a good person, but he has shown that he doesn't understand people as well as he might (in OoTP with his management of Harry), and so he might have decided to trust Snape for all the wrong reasons.

There were other people that he could have trusted. Other people that could (and probably did) appeal to his better nature. Why Snape? It is completely understandable for Dumbledore to be equivocal about Harry, a teenager. Being equivocal about his characterization of Snape, an adult and avowed Death Eater, is inexcusable. And Dumbledore has REALLY put himself out there. He KNOWS that Snape is loyal to him (the golden bullet that convinced him is somewhat of a mystery, though). Anything short is inexplicable.

Dumbledore was the most powerful, most intelligent wizard alive. Snape was an accomplished occlumens, but it's really doubtful to me that he could fool Dumbledore. I'm almost sure its some type of trick, that either Snape was ordered by Dumbedore to do it, or it was some kinda intricate illusion and Dumbledores still alive somewhere, but you know Dumbledore, if he's still alive, he wont be gone for too long, he wont leave his school unpretected, he loves that school more than anything. We havn't heard the last of Dumbledore. Plus, I just think Rowling knows how many people will be pissed off if she portrays Dumbledore as a dumbass that got tricked... I mean, I know he's only human, but throughout the books, its almost as if he's portrayed as being so powerful and so smart he's nearly superhuman, but then to just have him get knocked off like that? Weakened or not... psh, I don't buy it. Dumbledore was kinda like Gandalf... and we all know what happened when HE died/came back... :p

My spin on it: Dumbledore's really dead, he didn't order Snape to kill him, but Snape's not working for Voldemort. I don't think Snape completely knew what he was swearing to when he made that pact with Narcissa.

When I first read that chapter with the pact, I assumed Snape was bluffing. Just because he was talking the same way I do when I'm bluffing, and I didn't see anything to contradict that first impression. It sounded to me like he didn't know what Draco was supposed to do, like he was trying to get Narcissa to reveal it to him, doing his job as a spy for the forces of good and all that. I thought that was why he hesitated over the last part of the pact; the first parts were about protecting Draco, which he had no problem with, but he didn't have a clear idea of what that third vow meant and he didn't like the idea of swearing to do something in the dark like that. But it was too late to back out at that point.

And when it came down to it, he chose his own life over Dumbledore's. I don't consider that to be switching sides. Snape's not exactly a shining example of Good, the way I see him, but he's certainly not loyal to Voldemort.

I haven't read the last book but I've heard some speculation that it contained the concept of silent spells. Those speculations guess that Snape didn't actually use the avara-kedava spell but some other spell that let Dumbledore topple off the roof (an effect that the avara-kedava spell is not supposed to have) while pretending to use the avara-kedava.
again, this is just what I've heard, haven't read the book myself

You're worried about appearing nerdy on an internet forum, much less one dedicated to an online political game?

Classic - I'm writing that one down!

Snape is a badass.