NationStates Jolt Archive

In the sense that the Iraq War was not a wise course of action there are quite a few arguments to be made in the affirmative. So in that sense, one could very easily say: "The Iraq War was a mistake" and it would not be unfounded in nature.

But to claim that the Iraq War was a mistake because it was unintended or the reasoning behind it was rash very clearly misses the mark.


Bush's family is very well connected in the middle east, and this goes for beyond oil interests or arms dealing. The Bush family is in bed (perhaps only figuratively, but I wouldn't put it passed them for it being literally) with several of the major power brokers in the middle east. The Iraq War serves to help the Bush family network in the middle east. Setting up political contacts in key positions in Iraq has been a clear objective from the get go. All the shoddy, unfounded reasons for invading Iraq evidence a power hungry oligarch who just couldn't wait to sink his teeth into a new domain in the Middle East.


Another reason is one that involves the military. Now Bush doesn't give a flying hoot about the military except possibly as a voter demographic, but Rumsfeld (who has tried to resign three times) and Colin Powell both do. So when the military gets pissed off and wants to go on a rampage they tend to listen. Deterrence is a prevailing ideology amongst the military (obviously not the entire military but enough to be more than significant in number), and as such after 9-11 more than a few military minds decided that a Middle Eastern regime had to be toppled. The logic being: "A message had to be sent to the Terrorists." Now obviously things aren't so cut and dry as to claim that all Middle Easterns either: are, or are potential, terrorists, and there are more than a few scholars now who will tell you the war in Iraq has not damaged the "terrorist cause," but the target wasn't the terrorists in Iraq (our intelligence knew full well that Iraq was not a hot bed of terrorism under Saddam) so much as the religion of Islam itself. The idea being show Islam that it is not invincible, and return to a "status quo" where the prospect of military action convinces the other side to not act.

For the purpose of the above reasoning Iraq just happened to be the most politically convenient target since Saddam had already been shown to be a "Bad Guy" in the media, and most Americans could be convinced through effective use of propaganda (which you will notice began to occurr well prior to Bush going before the UN). It was an easy job to convince the public that Iraq was haven for "our enemies."


Now when I say oil interests are not a root cause of the Iraq War I do have to be careful about how I qualify that statement. US oil interests never had anything to do with it; neither did foreign interests for that matter. The US gas prices have gone up since Iraq was taken over, and so it should be pretty clear that we aren't freely importing barrels of this stuff willy-nilly. No, but the Bush family's oil interests were at stake. Bush said even before 9-11 that he wanted to be able to get into Iraq, and 9-11 simply gave him an "excuse" to do it.

But the fact of the above is that Bush family oil interests are only indicative of the larger pattern of networking the Bush family engages in. The Bush family isn't pouring oil into the US, but what it is doing is make "friends" in the oil industry and paying back all the various people who owe him favors, which is quite substantial.



The fact that military pressure happened to coincide with Bush interest is why the propaganda machine went into full swing as soon as it did, and is in all likelihood coincidental based upon the unlikely event that was September Eleventh occurring when it did. But on point: the Iraq War was anything but unintended. It was a rather deliberate power grab, but it was spun as something different. You will notice that white house denial of "oil interest" claims were rather sparse, and that the ideas were allowed to prosper/fester. Half-truths are allowed to be disseminated because they are the easiest kind of lie to swallow.

NT

Yeah, the Iraq War is a mistake.

Having said that, now that we're in it: Total Focus on winning it anyway.

Did anybody feel like they were somewhere 3 years ago when they read that title?

Yeah, the Iraq War is a mistake.

Having said that, now that we're in it: Total Focus on winning it anyway.

I don't disagree with you here at all. I do believe that the Iraq War was an unwise course of action.


But some people on the North Korean thread were contending that the Iraq War was essentially a "mistake" in the sense that it was unintended or the reasons for its occurrence were essentially spur of the moment decisions, and this is my response to them (didn't want to hijack the other thread).

NT

It was a mistake, we should have covertly made Iran and Iraq hate each other enough to go to war again and finally finish it, the we could of sent in "Peacekeeping" forces and deposed whichever goverment survived, introducing democracy and acheiving the adoration of every liberal the world over. :cool:

I agree with Free Shepmagans. Thats would have pwned and everyone would love us :fluffle:

Im not American btw, im British but its nearly as bad these days :eek:

I think we should've never been over there in the first place. I hold a different view from many..and like any view .. mine can be wrong. I think we are over there for many reasons.. and it's none of the reasons that are given to us. Number one.. I think we are over there because of our dominant jewish lobby.. number two oil.. number three just spreading out to take over shit. What ever happens .. happens. All I know is that I am an American .. I feel a brotherhood to certain parts of Europe, especially the UK and Ireland. Germany comes a close 2nd France a 3rd. We are a very young country, that sprang up super fast, became a world power with the quickness. We have a lot of past, and I love a lot of this country that I have known. Things are going to change.. and not for the good. All shit's gonna hit the fan soon. And the world - economy etc. as we know it, isn't gonna be. But back to my Euro thing.. Although I am an American.. and I've loved my country.... I feel more of connection with certain parts of Europe. Makes sense .. since I orignate from there. I'm not saying I don't care about my fellow Americans... ofcourse I do. It's just different.. can't really explain it. But it's real.

I think we should've never been over there in the first place. I hold a different view from many..and like any view .. mine can be wrong. I think we are over there for many reasons.. and it's none of the reasons that are given to us. Number one.. I think we are over there because of our dominant jewish lobby.. number two oil.. number three just spreading out to take over shit. What ever happens .. happens. All I know is that I am an American .. I feel a brotherhood to certain parts of Europe, especially the UK and Ireland. Germany comes a close 2nd France a 3rd. We are a very young country, that sprang up super fast, became a world power with the quickness. We have a lot of past, and I love a lot of this country that I have known. Things are going to change.. and not for the good. All shit's gonna hit the fan soon. And the world - economy etc. as we know it, isn't gonna be. But back to my Euro thing.. Although I am an American.. and I've loved my country.... I feel more of connection with certain parts of Europe. Makes sense .. since I orignate from there. I'm not saying I don't care about my fellow Americans... ofcourse I do. It's just different.. can't really explain it. But it's real.



I don't think everyone here is understanding the point of this thread.


I'm essentially stating that all the reasons you just presented for going to war in Iraq are wrong. Jewish lobby is kinda hard to prove either way.


The point is to present an alternate "theory" on why the War in Iraq happened, and to discredit the idea that the reasons for the Iraq war were in any way something other than deliberate (which was espoused on the North Korean thread).

NT

yes

Jewish lobby is hard to prove? No way. All one has to do is a little research and reading. It's almost blatant. But ofcourse if one chooses not to see it that way.. they won't. Anyway..sorry I disturbed your thread based on another topic/discussion of another thread. Was just voicing my opinion. Be well.

Jewish lobby is hard to prove? No way. All one has to do is a little research and reading. It's almost blatant. But ofcourse if one chooses not to see it that way.. they won't. Anyway..sorry I disturbed your thread based on another topic/discussion of another thread. Was just voicing my opinion. Be well.


No apologies necessary. It wasn't just you. You were a convenient quote because you were stating much of what I was trying to disprove. The post, however, was aimed more in general to the people who were thinking this thread was about "whether the Iraq War was unwise." It is not. It is about thre reasons for the war and how much thought went into its conception.



And I am well aware that the jewish lobby exists and is quite powerful. What is hard to prove one way or the other is how much effect the jewish lobby had on the decision to go to war in Iraq.

NT

Could people please stop answering the title and read the first post.

My argument is essentially that while the Iraq War may (I believe it was, but there are some who argue otherwise) be a mistake for the US; it is not for George Bush. The Iraq War is a deliberate and carefully orchestrated power grab and distribution for George Bush and his familiy/associates.

NT

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer: YEEEEEESSSSS!

The war was made under false pretences with shitty intelligence and poor planning. All the while we knew that the other two members of the "Axis of Evil", Iran and North Korea had the access and the means to develop nuclear weapons.

We have dethroned a truly insane and deplorable man, but many would ask if it is worth it.

My opinion: Bush just wanted to go to war with Iraq, period.

Read this a long time ago.. they also spoke of next attack they thought would be happening which is Iran. http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Dollar_Iraq.htm

I think I even made a thread about where someone ( not suprisingly -- I also thought) that the FED was the GOV, when in fact it is private.

Conspiracies and all.. I've given up.. was too heavy on my mind, and took up too much of my time even thinking about it.

Could people please stop answering the title and read the first post.

My argument is essentially that while the Iraq War may (I believe it was, but there are some who argue otherwise) be a mistake for the US; it is not for George Bush. The Iraq War is a deliberate and carefully orchestrated power grab and distribution for George Bush and his familiy/associates.

NT


I agree. heh

And another one I read a long time ago.. (had to go to an old site I use to frequent to find it) about the $$ and Iraq.


http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2004/sharma0204.html

I'm done now =()

Yeah, the Iraq War is a mistake.

Having said that, now that we're in it: Total Focus on winning it anyway.
What is there to win?

Freedom in martial law?

Democracy in a country which has a history of oligarchy and dictatorship?

Safety in what is now the most war-torn part of the middle east?

What is there to win?

Freedom in martial law?

Democracy in a country which has a history of oligarchy and dictatorship?

Safety in what is now the most war-torn part of the middle east?

Although I cried against war 'til I lost my voice, I think would be much worse if you leave now. There's nothing to win but much to loose. Look at afganistan after the sovietic retreat. US shouldn't play with countries or at the end it'll create a golem.

Although I cried against war 'til I lost my voice, I think would be much worse if you leave now. There's nothing to win but much to loose. Look at afganistan after the sovietic retreat. US shouldn't play with countries or at the end it'll create a golem.
Exactly. It's like Vietnam all over again. No clear objectives, no real way out either. All we can do is lose as gracefully as possible, whilst trying to repair the damage that's been done.

I won't go so far as to call the Iraq War a mistake.

I don't believe for one moment that Saddam Hussein would ever give up power voluntarily.

I don't believe for one moment that he would ever seek a peaceful resolution to U.N. Sanctions.

I don't doubt for one moment that he would try to get weapons of mass destruction into the hands of the enemies of the United States and Europe if he ever had the ability.

On the other hand, I don't believe for one moment that the United States was in iminent danger from Iraq. We could have waited. We could have taken the time to get the U.N. behind us, or even just NATO. There was no reason to believe that six months, a year or even two years would have made any difference in Iraq's threat. Al Qaeda could have been kept on the run, Pakistan could have been pressured to allow U.S. Troops in to continue the attacks that began in Afghanistan. Iraq and Syria could have been pressured to give up the suspected terrorists they had in custody. The U.S. had bigger fish to fry and had better reasons to fry them.

So I don't consider the war a mistake, but the timing definitely was.

And I said so back when it started too. :p

What is there to win?

Freedom in martial law?

Democracy in a country which has a history of oligarchy and dictatorship?

Safety in what is now the most war-torn part of the middle east?

What's there to lose if we don't win?

It's like ending up on the wrong footie-pitch.
God in His wisdom knows we shouldn't have ended up there.
But since we are there, no half measures, no doubts, and no defeatism.

We haven't lost a war in this century, and there's no need to spoil the record.

What's there to lose if we don't win?

It's like ending up on the wrong footie-pitch.
God in His wisdom knows we shouldn't have ended up there.
But since we are there, no half measures, no doubts, and no defeatism.

We haven't lost a war in this century, and there's no need to spoil the record.
Ah of course!

We'll stay there until 2101 and then say "you know what, we didn't lose a single war in the 21st century. This can be our century of peace".

Ah of course!

We'll stay there until 2101 and then say "you know what, we didn't lose a single war in the 21st century. This can be our century of peace".

I'm not on about peace.
I'm on about the V-D-L list.
Having anything in the L-column is unacceptable.

*drifts back 3 years to the big anti-war rallies*

It's a pity rallying everyone back out again to say 'we told you so' is considered bad form really...

*drifts back 3 years to the big anti-war rallies*

It's a pity rallying everyone back out again to say 'we told you so' is considered bad form really...

I said so too.
Actually, I wrote a small column on 912 ( one day after ) predicting an Iraq War while claiming Iraq would have owt to do with the whole thing.

Told you so is correct - but irrelevant.

*drifts back 3 years to the big anti-war rallies*

It's a pity rallying everyone back out again to say 'we told you so' is considered bad form really...
Aye. And yet it is so incredibly tempting simply to say that.

Aye. And yet it is so incredibly tempting simply to say that.


Ok. Shall we do it in unison?

ALL TOGETHER NOW:

The Iraq War is a mistake - and we told you so!

Ok. Shall we do it in unison?

ALL TOGETHER NOW:

The Iraq War is a mistake - and we told you so!

Permission to sig?

Permission to sig?

Sure, be my guest!

*chuffed*

The Iraq-War is a mistake and we told you so

but at least, when Saddam finally gets killed for his crimes, there will be justice and those thousands of people (soldiers and civil people) didn't die in vain :headbang:

fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity

The Iraq-War is a mistake and we told you so

but at least, when Saddam finally gets killed for his crimes, there will be justice and those thousands of people (soldiers and civil people) didn't die in vain :headbang:

fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity

It may not really achieve the objective, but...
hooboy, it feels so good!


The Iraq War is a mistake - and we told you so!

I'm not a Bush-hating conspiracy theorist nor am I a delusional pacifist, but I was always uneasy about this particular war. It came out of nowhere, based on scant evidence that was eventually proved false. I won't make any claims to know what the Bush administration did or did not know at the start of the war, but to use the removal of Saddam as justification makes the war rather ill-timed. In my opinion, the ideal situation would have been for H.W. Bush to finish the Persian Gulf War by removing a dictator who had just finished using biological weapons on his own people and waging an aggressive war on Kuwait. Then the justifications would have been quite clear.