NationStates Jolt Archive

I noticed, not for the first time, that we have a very rigidly informal society. It appears that everyone either wants to be known by their first name, or expects to address others by their first names. I remember, and not long ago, either, that one could always count on addressing each other as Mr, Miss, or Mrs. Now, complete strangers, or worse, bosses, are referred to as Mark, Stephanie, Carl, and so on.

I tried an experiment the other day. I sent an email to our out-of-town Human Resources representative. I've never met her, never called, never written. In the greeting, I wrote Dear Ms Jones, instead of the usual brief first name. Then I asked my question and signed it. Her response was "Call me Shirley" and then she went on to answer my question.

In my reply, I thanked her for her help and mentioned that I didn't know her well enough to call her Shirley, so Ms Jones would have to do. I figured that would be the end. I was wrong. She actually called to tell me it was okay to call her by her first name. Damn'd Californians.

Okay, so I'm anal about a lot of things. I don't insist anyone calls me "Doctor", even though I rate it. But I do think a little formality between strangers is just good manners.

I noticed, not for the first time, that we have a very rigidly informal society.

Dear Doctor,

I do not know where you have been for the last several years, but it seems formality went out sometime in the 1980's or early 1990's.

Sincerely,

SMSgt. Celtlund USAF (Ret.)

P.S. Please call me Celt. :D

Most people don't like it because it makes them feel old. We don't want to feel old.

What's formal and what's informal are not static. In today's world, calling her Ms. Jones would indicate a rather huge degree of familiarity. It would mean that you have some organizational reason to talk to her and you are communicating via form letter or something. If you are conversing to any extent, formality demands you call her by her first name. That's how formality and informality work.

I noticed, not for the first time, that we have a very rigidly informal society. It appears that everyone either wants to be known by their first name, or expects to address others by their first names. I remember, and not long ago, either, that one could always count on addressing each other as Mr, Miss, or Mrs. Now, complete strangers, or worse, bosses, are referred to as Mark, Stephanie, Carl, and so on.

I tried an experiment the other day. I sent an email to our out-of-town Human Resources representative. I've never met her, never called, never written. In the greeting, I wrote Dear Ms Jones, instead of the usual brief first name. Then I asked my question and signed it. Her response was "Call me Shirley" and then she went on to answer my question.

In my reply, I thanked her for her help and mentioned that I didn't know her well enough to call her Shirley, so Ms Jones would have to do. I figured that would be the end. I was wrong. She actually called to tell me it was okay to call her by her first name. Damn'd Californians.

Okay, so I'm anal about a lot of things. I don't insist anyone calls me "Doctor", even though I rate it. But I do think a little formality between strangers is just good manners.

Sometimes when I'm driving down the highway total strangers call me 'asshole'. That's petty informal. :p

Most people don't like it because it makes them feel old. We don't want to feel old.

Boy, you calling me old? Hell boy, I'm 63 years young. Just call me Celt. :p

I call professionals by their professional title unless I know them well. As a child, I never would have referred to an adult by their first name, and as an adult, my elders (my aboriginal elders) are all referred to by their position (either as a relative or otherwise) and never by name. I do not respond to students who address me by first name, nor do I respond to my children in the same situation. My mother-in-law is 'suegra' (mother-in-law) to me. And so forth. Informality is for friends, lovers, and wackos on the internet.

Sometimes when I'm driving down the highway total strangers call me 'asshole'. That's petty informal. :p

But, are you a perfect asshole or do you have hemorrhoids? :p

Damn'd Californians.
.
Sorry man, it's just that we learned a while ago that if you unclench you live longer.

Truth of the matter is, if someone calls me Mr. Name it generally means I'm in trouble. If I'm not in trouble then we both can relax and use the name we're used to responding to anyway. Mr., even with bosses, seem unneccesarily affectatious. If you're a good boss you don't need the artifice to do your job.

Dear Doctor,

I do not know where you have been for the last several years, but it seems formality went out sometime in the 1980's or early 1990's.

Sincerely,

SMSgt. Celtlund USAF (Ret.)

P.S. Please call me Celt. :D
I was in the Marine Corps then. We knew how to address each other. That must be my problem.

But it gets weird if you meet a friends friend..

Would you say "Nice to meet you Pete" or "Nice to meet you Mr. Banana"?

Seeing as you only knew of them for two seconds..

I have no idea if I'm making sense.. but hey, I'd use their name, not their.. title..(?)

I was in the Marine Corps then. We knew how to address each other. That must be my problem.

If it is your preference to be addressed Mr., I at least would honor that, but most peole don't like it.

But it gets weird if you meet a friends friend..

Would you say "Nice to meet you Pete" or "Nice to meet you Mr. Banana"?

Seeing as you only knew of them for two seconds..

I have no idea if I'm making sense.. but hey, I'd use their name, not their.. title..(?)
I'm exaggerating this out of proportion, of course. I don't get heartburn when I call the boss Ned, or the secretary calls me Homer. I even call the CEO by his first name on the few occaisions I have to speak to him. I usually sprinkle some "Sirs" liberally in the conversation, though.

If I am in a bank, a store, even my Doctor's office, I expect to be called Ms. Katganistan. (No, that's not really my surname, but I'm not tellin', so there.)

If I am in my classroom, it had BETTER be either Ms. Kat, Miss Kat, or Miss. That goes for other adults as well as students.

In the teacher's lounge, my colleagues of course address me by my given name.

Informality is for those who lack decorum. Unless you know the person or you're told to, I believe you should always call them by Ms/Miss/Mrs/Mr and their name (or sub in the appropriate title). It's just better that way. I also think if you don't know the person, you should call them "sir" or "ma'am/miss". It's just proper.

Though, I feel odd when people call me "ma'am". I look around because I think they're talking to my mother. :p It's really strange to be called Ms Kryozerkia. I'm so used to being called by my first name... it'll be even stranger to be Mrs (insert boyfriend's surname)...

I don't like to, especially with women, cuz it's very hard to tell when to use Ms or Mrs

If I am in a bank, a store, even my Doctor's office, I expect to be called Ms. Katganistan. (No, that's not really my surname, but I'm not tellin', so there.)

If I am in my classroom, it had BETTER be either Ms. Kat, Miss Kat, or Miss. That goes for other adults as well as students.

In the teacher's lounge, my colleagues of course address me by my given name.

What about behind your back?

Informality is for those who lack decorum. Unless you know the person or you're told to, I believe you should always call them by Ms/Miss/Mrs/Mr and their name (or sub in the appropriate title). It's just better that way. I also think if you don't know the person, you should call them "sir" or "ma'am/miss". It's just proper.

Though, I feel odd when people call me "ma'am". I look around because I think they're talking to my mother. :p
I am of similar disposition. I detest informality.

I don't like to, especially with women, cuz it's very hard to tell when to use Ms or Mrs

Don't worry about it. They are women so you are already wrong. :D

If I am in a bank, a store, even my Doctor's office, I expect to be called Ms. Katganistan. (No, that's not really my surname, but I'm not tellin', so there.)

If I am in my classroom, it had BETTER be either Ms. Kat, Miss Kat, or Miss. That goes for other adults as well as students.

In the teacher's lounge, my colleagues of course address me by my given name.
In my school, there is a history teacher.. he flipped out at a kid who said "Yeah, *thinks of fake name* Heblerb's test is going to be hard"

He did so because they didn't say "Mr. Heblerb"

Would you do that?

[/random question]

I wonder if it has to do with all the people supposedly 'working' who think it is fine to dress like they are on vacation or hiking or playing golf.

What about behind your back?

No doubt I am referred to as that stunningly good looking, genius-level philanthropist and all around good egg.

Or not. :p

I don't like to, especially with women, cuz it's very hard to tell when to use Ms or Mrs

It's why Ms was created, I'm sure.
Halfway between Miss (unmarried) and Mrs. (married).
"So, Miz Kat...."

I am of similar disposition. I detest informality.
I only accept informality if it's mutually agreed upon.

I only accept informality if it's mutually agreed upon.
Precisely. I just shudder at the thought though of calling one of my professors by their first name. I like there to be a certain distance between me and those that I do not know in a proximite, friendly manner. Unless someone is my own age.

I'm exaggerating this out of proportion, of course. I don't get heartburn when I call the boss Ned, or the secretary calls me Homer. I even call the CEO by his first name on the few occaisions I have to speak to him. I usually sprinkle some "Sirs" liberally in the conversation, though.
I see.

When I'm talking to a teacher, I always say the Mr.; Mrs... even if they aren't married.. it gets weird when a devorced teacher accepts "Mrs." though..

Who the hell knows.. hell.. I get confused when I ask to go to the bathroom..

.. in our old school we called bathrooms "lavs".. lavatory.. meh meh nevermind meh.

Just remember kiddies, when asking permission, use "may" not "can!

*twitches*

I still call my former teachers Mr. and Mrs. even though i have been out of high school for ten years. That has nothing to do with being formal or informal though, i just go so used to calling them that it seems weird to use their first names. The only exception is a teacher i once had who is now our local MLA. I have done volunteer work for the party he is a member of and got to know him better, i now just call him by his first name. With professors it varied, some i called Mr. or Mrs. some i called by their first names.

If i am writing a letter to a politician or CEO or something i have never met, i will use Mr. Mrs. etc. but i know our local MP and as i said, our local MLA, so we go by first names.

I write for my local paper and when i contact people for interviews, i address them by their first name and they address me by my first name. When it comes to anyone else, it depends on how they introduce themselves.

I have gotten called ma'am on occasion and i always find it weird, i'm not a very formal person.

It's why Ms was created, I'm sure.
Halfway between Miss (unmarried) and Mrs. (married).
"So, Miz Kat...."
Meh meh meh teachers!

Ms. and Miss really annoy me.

:(

Precisely. I just shudder at the thought though of calling one of my professors by their first name. I like there to be a certain distance between me and those that I do not know in a proximite, friendly manner. Unless someone is my own age.
Even though my professors allowed it at my school, I couldn't call them by their first name to their face. I always reverted to "sir" or "ma'am". Even with my best friend's parents and my boyfriend's parents, no matter how many times I'm told not to, I keep reverting back and calling them either sir or ma'am, or Mr/Mrs (insert surname). I can barely call my future mother-in-law by her first name. I can't do it; I feel so awkward, even though it's been three years...

I understand this problem. I have noticed that children are taught this informality, now. Even worse, they are introduced to every woman as Miss First Name. I am not a Miss. I am a Mrs. and proud of it. I could handle Ms. from someone who wasn't sure. But telling your children I am Miss Shoo really bugs me. I am Mrs. Flee or at the very least Mrs. Shoo. I don't like when they introduce themselves that way either. My kids don't know what to say because we have taught them Mrs. (or Mr.) Last Name, but no one is telling their last name anymore. There are people who's last name I don't even know. A bit more formality may seem somewhat archaic, but at least everyone was on the same page. The current trend seems a bit lazy.

I never call anyone sir or ma'am.

Even though my professors allowed it at my school, I couldn't call them by their first name to their face. I always reverted to "sir" or "ma'am". Even with my best friend's parents and my boyfriend's parents, no matter how many times I'm told not to, I keep reverting back and calling them either sir or ma'am, or Mr/Mrs (insert surname). I can barely call my future mother-in-law by her first name. I can't do it; I feel so awkward, even though it's been three years...
More or less my attitude as well. When my aunties or uncles come over, it is always difficult to get the idea of simply addressing them by their names when they come over. I think it's the age difference that may be the reason. I am a fetishist for social structures in some ways. I especially loved in the old period films how people were addressed by their titles.

I never call anyone sir or ma'am.
Tell me why, good sir...or ma'am...

More or less my attitude as well. When my aunties or uncles come over, it is always difficult to get the idea of simply addressing them by their names when they come over. I think it's the age difference that may be the reason. I am a fetishist for social structures in some ways.
I think because many early Gen Y'ers and all previous generations are taught to be formal unless they are given permission and even then to err on the side of formality.

I think because many early Gen Y'ers and all previous generations are taught to be formal unless they are given permission and even then to err on the side of formality.
Indeed. Call me retrogressive, but I would find it a shame for this to disappear. It allows for some sense of identity -even if artificial- to manifest itself within society.

I think that formality, or lack thereof, is mainly based on ulterior motives. This is just an observation and is not implying that these motives are necessarily a bad thing. For instance, a motive of respect would indicate either calling someone by their formal name or by the name they wish to be called by. A motive of instilling a relaxed atmosphere or even a sense of camaraderie would call for informal titles. Companies tend to wish to install this kind of relaxed atmosphere under the belief that employees will work better if they are comfortable with their bosses and co-workers and feel that they belong. It's psychology. In schools and colleges faculty and some staff are still routinely referred to by their formal or professional names by the students but not by each other. This practice keeps a firm line drawn between the students and the educators and instills the expectation of respect.

I'm a ma'am. I think it's because sir and ma'am seem a bit too formal to me, unless you are in the military or something. Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. i can understand, but i don't think sir or ma'am are necessary unless you are writing letters or something to heads of companies or something who's last names you don't know.

I have no problem with a certain sense of formality when it's required, and when i was a kid, i would never call someone i didn't know by their first name, and most adults wouldn't have let me. I just find that as an adult when i'm talking to other adults, it's not as much of an issue, at least not where i live and not among the people i know.

I grew up saying "sir" and "ma'am" to my parents and elders (my dad was in the Navy, hmm), so the informal thing seems really weird to me. I just stick with Mr/Mrs (or Dr, Rev, Prof - whatever) Name when I'm talking to somebody more than a few years older... first names are only with my peers.

Although at work everybody goes by first names, even the Supes. It's kinda weird.

My brother used to work at Radio Shack and he hated it when people called him sir. We were raised in a more informal way, if someone called me ma'am, or even Ms. i would just tell them to call me Gina. When i introduce myself, it's always by my first name because i want people to know they can use it. If someone feels uncomfortable calling me by my first name, i understand that, but in return, they need to understand that i usually feel uncomfortable being addressed in ways other than by my first name.

I wonder if it has to do with all the people supposedly 'working' who think it is fine to dress like they are on vacation or hiking or playing golf.
There you go. I will NEVER wear blue jeans to work. I will NEVER wear sneakers to work. I would be quite happy with a coat and tie, but the workplace standards at our office don't allow that. So, I console myself with wingtips, wool-blend trousers, and a nice, ironed cotton shirt. The tie and coat hang on the back of my office door.

I never call anyone sir or ma'am.

Neither do I. But then I'm not a submissive. Yes, no, thank you, please, etc get the point across just as politely without prostrating yourself by adding "sir" or "ma'am." If you're going to go that far, why not be even more formal and traditional and tug on your fore locks and grovel before your "betters." No, to me using "sir" and "ma'am" smacks of elitism and forced social hierarchy. The point is to get rid of the class system, not to re-enforce it.

Half the people I know or meet call me Walrus (and I do not introduce myself as that...I have my dork limits...) and no matter how old I get I still look like the same slacker I was ten years ago and no one calls a slacker 'sir'.

When it comes to clothing in the workplace, i think it depends on what kind of business you work in. Jobs in the creative field tend to have a less strict dress code. Jobs that deal with the public tend to have stricter ones because they want to put out a good image to the rest of the world. I used to work at my local AIDS Organization and we always dressed casually, though not sloppily, because that's how our clients dressed. Most of them were drug users and part of getting them to trust us and feel comfortable was to make them feel like they could relate to us in some way. If we showed up in suits, or even casual dress shirts and stuff, that would have been weird for them. Now i work from home, no need to worry about a dress code.

I have never been one for dressing up, though i will do it when the situation requires, like the semi-formal part of my high school reunion last weekend. I don't even want to eat in restaurants that require me to dress up.

I understand this problem. I have noticed that children are taught this informality, now. Even worse, they are introduced to every woman as Miss First Name. I am not a Miss. I am a Mrs. and proud of it. I could handle Ms. from someone who wasn't sure. But telling your children I am Miss Shoo really bugs me. I am Mrs. Flee or at the very least Mrs. Shoo. I don't like when they introduce themselves that way either. My kids don't know what to say because we have taught them Mrs. (or Mr.) Last Name, but no one is telling their last name anymore. There are people who's last name I don't even know. A bit more formality may seem somewhat archaic, but at least everyone was on the same page. The current trend seems a bit lazy.


When I was a kid, this was a regional difference.
In the northeast, it was Mrs. Ganistan.
In the southeast, though, my friends were taught that one referred to me as an adult as Miss Kat.

I am of similar disposition. I detest informality.

Me too! I just HATE it!

Apparently in businesses in the US, they think it'll foster a "more open" environment where the peons will think more and/or be more productive. This according to an article I read recently in the Wall St. Journal (I don't know if it's online anywhere free or not). And of course, the multinational corporations have tried to export this idiocy to their non-US bases and partners, with varying degrees of success (or rejection).

Also, like many things businesses come up with, they have deluded themselves into believing that their employees think the idea is desireable, forgetting that employees will always "uh-huh" along to whatever the boss says (when in range of the boss' hearing) as if it's golden...even if they think the boss' idea is the dumbest thing ever.

From what I've seen in RL, the practice just amounts to an environment where people are still exactly the same as they've always been, and the management just as idiotic and rigid as ever, only now they call the boss by its first name.

It's gotten really pervasive and spread far beyond business now. On another board I'm on, I actually have to TELL some people to use my screenname if they manage to find out my real one! Duh duh duh!! If I wanted people knowing my real name I wouldn't have an obviously fake screen name would I?!? Argh!

Hopefully the business-related premise behind this will be fully discredited, and soon. If companies stop thinking there's money in it, that should stop them from driving the trend. Then hopefully it will go away.

There you go. I will NEVER wear blue jeans to work. I will NEVER wear sneakers to work. I would be quite happy with a coat and tie, but the workplace standards at our office don't allow that. So, I console myself with wingtips, wool-blend trousers, and a nice, ironed cotton shirt. The tie and coat hang on the back of my office door.
I love a touch of formality when going to workplaces. The more professional they tend to be in their nature, the more the appeal grows. For instance, seeing a lawyer "comfortably" dressed would incline me to take my business elsewhere. Reminds me of an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where this rich Jewish guy went to this lawyer dressed casually, and ended up telling him "What kind of cheap fuck are you...some bum pulled off the street posing as a lawyer".

I never call anyone sir or ma'am.
The closest I get is I don't call them 'dude.'

On the internet i always refer to people by their screennames unless they tell me i can use their first name, or i see everyone else using their first name and they go right along with it. If only a few people do it i assume they are friends, so i still use their screenname. That's not really about formality with me though, it's about privacy. I know some people don't like revealing their real names on the internet.

Fergi America']Me too! I just HATE it!

...then hopefully it will go away.
Unfortunately, I am not so optimistic myself. In South Africa formality and good manners are still the sine qua non of our culture. Sort of the same in Britain, and most of Europe. However, I can tell it's constantly diminishing. I don't mind according people an appropriate amount of respect. To me it is not submission; it is recognition of what sets myself and them apart.

Half the people I know or meet call me Walrus (and I do not introduce myself as that...I have my dork limits...) and no matter how old I get I still look like the same slacker I was ten years ago and no one calls a slacker 'sir'.

I get called "sir" frequently, and I'm only 21. :(

I get called "sir" frequently, and I'm only 21. :(
I get called "ma'am" and I'm 23; makes me feel... old.

I get called "ma'am" and I'm 23; makes me feel... old.

Damn. This politeness thing is making people feel old.

Won't somebody please think of the young people? ;)

Damn. This politeness thing is making people feel old.

Won't somebody please think of the young people? ;)
You'd like that, would you, you gosh darn whippersnapper?!

Certainly, Mr. HotRodia.

My parents got the double whammy: my dad's hair went completely silver-grey by the time he was 35.

We were on vacation, and he went into a hotel to secure a room for my mom, brother, me and himself.

He came back all upset because the woman behind the counter offered him a senior citizen discount.

Mom my bro and I, "Did you accept it?" ;)


Later on the same trip, we went to Pizza Hut. Dad left the table, Mom ordered. When she got to the pitcher of beer, the waitress asked for ID.
My mom didn't have any as she didn't drive. No ID, no beer.

"I could be your GRANDMOTHER!"
"No ID, no beer."

Then of course, my mom had to undergo the embarassment of both of her kids pulling out ID and offering to buy her beer. ;)


;) Trust me on this: getting called Mom! in a high school classroom will DEFINITELY make you feel old. ;)

lol...i'm 28 and i still get IDed sometimes, and the drinking age here is only 19. The worst though is that i almost got IDed at a PG movie a few years ago. I know i look young, but you only need to be 12 or something to get into a PG movie, i'd like to think i look older than a pubescent child.

You'd like that, would you, you gosh darn whippersnapper?!

Certainly, Mr. HotRodia.

Mommy! Bianca and Kat are picking on me! :p



My parents got the double whammy: my dad's hair went completely silver-grey by the time he was 35.

We were on vacation, and he went into a hotel to secure a room for my mom, brother, me and himself.

He came back all upset because the woman behind the counter offered him a senior citizen discount.

Mom my bro and I, "Did you accept it?" ;)


Later on the same trip, we went to Pizza Hut. Dad left the table, Mom ordered. When she got to the pitcher of beer, the waitress asked for ID.
My mom didn't have any as she didn't drive. No ID, no beer.

"I could be your GRANDMOTHER!"
"No ID, no beer."

Then of course, my mom had to undergo the embarassment of both of her kids pulling out ID and offering to buy her beer. ;)

Heh. My Mom looked so young in my high school that they asked her if she had a hall pass, and it my junior high they thought she was a student too. In our martial arts classes they thought we were brother and sister.

0.o

;) Trust me on this: getting called Mom! in a high school classroom will DEFINITELY make you feel old. ;)

Personally, the horny high school girls I was teaching made me feel a little old and soooo mature. ^_^

I get called Mr. ***** by teachers sometimes, usually it when I'm in shit.:mad:

I get called Mr. ***** by teachers sometimes, usually it when I'm in shit.:mad:
Mind if I call you that? ^^

There you go. I will NEVER wear blue jeans to work. I will NEVER wear sneakers to work. I would be quite happy with a coat and tie, but the workplace standards at our office don't allow that. So, I console myself with wingtips, wool-blend trousers, and a nice, ironed cotton shirt. The tie and coat hang on the back of my office door.


In manners and in clothing - even in smoking cigarettes instead of a pipe - it is a matter of laziness.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the forum, distinguished guests, and dutiful computers of the NSA,
Formality in the written word still has a place but when addressing a servant or tradesman a stigma is now attached to identifying oneself as Mr. xyz. Certainly if I were dealing with a client and they referred to themselves as Mr. Crofton or somesuch I'd know I was dealing with a right kook.

Well they say fammiliarity breeds contempt, and since most people treat their fellow human beings with contempt, it stands to reason they should address them on a familliar level.

One thing that is very effective for maintaining distance from people is to refuse to call them by their first name.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the forum, distinguished guests, and dutiful computers of the NSA,
Formality in the written word still has a place but when addressing a servant or tradesman a stigma is now attached to identifying oneself as Mr. xyz. Certainly if I were dealing with a client and they referred to themselves as Mr. Crofton or somesuch I'd know I was dealing with a right kook.
Where the Hell do you live? :confused:

In the twentyfirst century. In Ireland. So if you were phoning a company and they asked you who was calling would you say "John Smith from xyz limited" or "Mr Smith of xyz limited"?

Heh. My Mom looked so young in my high school that they asked her if she had a hall pass, and it my junior high they thought she was a student too. In our martial arts classes they thought we were brother and sister.
My mother (whose 51 years old) got carded when she tried to order a Long Island Iced Tea at the same time that I did at the Pickel Barrel at Christmas. (PBs is a Canadian restaurant in Toronto). The waitress carded me at the same time. And, strangely, I never get carded when I'm with my boyfriend...

In the twentyfirst century. In Ireland. So if you were phoning a company and they asked you who was calling would you say "John Smith from xyz limited" or "Mr Smith of xyz limited"?
The 21st century bit is entirely irrelevant. It is in fact common in Britain to still refer yourself by a title + your first (and on occasion, last) name. Same with many other countries, especially European. In France or Germany addressing one by title is hardly rare.

In the twentyfirst century. In Ireland. So if you were phoning a company and they asked you who was calling would you say "John Smith from xyz limited" or "Mr Smith of xyz limited"?
Actually, all CSRs are taught to give their first and last name. Though, it often varies based on company policy and the general type of client base that the company is dealing with. By giving the first and last name you're giving the person on the other end a way of addressing you and knowing who they're talking to. By giving both names, you're establishing that the conversation is at least semi-formal and there will be formalities used unless otherwise noted.

I use "sir" and "Ma'am" a lot. Sometimes ppl protest, but I tell them that when I was a kid I had a boss who was a retired drill sargeant, and that I just can't help it. In a friendlier way of using "sir" and "ma'am" with my co-workers, I generally put an exaggerated inflection on it so as to make it almost silly. But just as often I address them as "Hey, so-and-so..."

I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS address customers with "sir" and "ma'am", "ms" and "mr". Again, I can't help it. And I don't think its such a bad thing. Especially if that is the most respect that individual can hope to get that day....lol

If a salesman cold-calls me by my first name....he better back the fuck off. Not that I am a stickler for formality, but I don't like anyone acting like they are my chum when their motivation is clearly to line their pockets with my cash.

I don't like to, especially with women, cuz it's very hard to tell when to use Ms or Mrs

I am a woman. My first name is Tracy. I get mail addressed to "Mr Tracy ........." all the time. I hate it. Or if I answer the phone and they ask for Mr. ................ and I ask them if they mean "Tom?", and they say, "no....Tracy". Then I have to explain that Tom is the boy's name and Tracy is the girl's name, and then listen to them babble their apology like an idiot.

I wonder if it has to do with all the people supposedly 'working' who think it is fine to dress like they are on vacation or hiking or playing golf.

WTF? My boss dresses us ALL like golfers....

I understand this problem. I have noticed that children are taught this informality, now. Even worse, they are introduced to every woman as Miss First Name. I am not a Miss. I am a Mrs. and proud of it. I could handle Ms. from someone who wasn't sure. But telling your children I am Miss Shoo really bugs me. I am Mrs. Flee or at the very least Mrs. Shoo. I don't like when they introduce themselves that way either. My kids don't know what to say because we have taught them Mrs. (or Mr.) Last Name, but no one is telling their last name anymore. There are people who's last name I don't even know. A bit more formality may seem somewhat archaic, but at least everyone was on the same page. The current trend seems a bit lazy.

Its a bit of southern charm to call a woman Miz Firstname. As for women who wear their "Mrs." like a thorny crown, get the fuck over it. Its not a degree. Nobody cares. When I see someone sign their checks that way, "Mrs. Tom Flee", I want to slap them. FFS! Why not sign them "Property of Tom Flee"?

The 21st century bit is entirely irrelevant. It is in fact common in Britain to still refer yourself by a title + your first (and on occasion, last) name. Same with many other countries, especially European. In France or Germany addressing one by title is hardly rare.


Let me see title + your first name Mr. Jim, that seems odd right there.
Other languages aren't shaped the same and are out of the scope of this thread.

It's the death of the filthy disguisting class system, and good riddance too. In Ireland they used to force people to tug the forelock and say sir. The Irish response was to substitute "sor". Sor is Irish for cur, so they were really saying yes dog.

Let me see title + your first name Mr. Jim, that seems odd right there.
Other languages aren't shaped the same and are out of the scope of this thread.
It exists even within English. Do not be so presumptuous as to assume that the Irish way of doing things is universal.

It's the death of the filthy disguisting class system, and good riddance too. In Ireland they used to force people to tug the forelock and say sir. The Irish response was to substitute "sor". Sor is Irish for cur, so they were really saying yes dog.
Save the rants about the class system. I am used to them, and not phased either. I like a deal of distance between certain individuals and myself. Especially older people or those in a position of authority.

I had the misfortune of spending the years when I first began to deal with adults commonly in a military neighborhood (not because it was a military neighborhood per se, but because the entire neighborhood had a stick up it's collective ass). In that neighborhood every adult you met was Sir (even some of the women). I kept that habit, even though we left the neighborhood after just one year and to this day have infuriated teachers by calling them "Sir" or "Ma'am".

I dispise formality though, so it bugs me most of all. I haven't got a lot of use for formal language because it implies a willingness to "Defer" to someone as though they were somehow better than you. That's bullshit and it crosses the line from "kind" to "self-effacing". I do my best to be polite without formal language (although it's hard to do so and not get in trouble when you still go to school), but you'd be suprised how little respect people have for a teenager. If I were but a few years older I'd be insulting people by calling them "Mr." or "Ms.", but as a teen I'd damn well better show them respoect or I somehow become a "Wild hooligan" or something.

It exists even within English. Do not be so presumptuous as to assume that the Irish way of doing things is universal.


The Irish way of doing things indeed, how very provincial of you. I'll just tell you for your own good that if you actually tell anyone that your name is Mr. Jim or Mr. Steve or whatever, they're going to think you're mental.

The Irish way of doing things indeed, how very provincial of you. I'll just tell you for your own good that if you actually tell anyone that your name is Mr. Jim or Mr. Steve or whatever, they're going to think you're mental.
As I said, outside of Ireland people do things differently. In the UK (or indeed South Africa even), depending on the situation, it is seen as perfectly fine to do so.

If I am in a bank, a store, even my Doctor's office, I expect to be called Ms. Katganistan. (No, that's not really my surname, but I'm not tellin', so there.)

If I am in my classroom, it had BETTER be either Ms. Kat, Miss Kat, or Miss. That goes for other adults as well as students.

In the teacher's lounge, my colleagues of course address me by my given name.

Out of curiosity then, how do you address your students?

At my school we drop the Mr/Ms when refering to teachers (except for one, her last name is quite difficult. We just call her Ms G).
Mr Simpson becomes just Simpson
Ms Flanders--->Flanders
Mr Snagglepuss--->Sangglepuss
etc.
Just quicker that way. Some teachers do have nicknames, like Master Cheif (Halo Skillz), and we are pretty liberal in calling them by their nickname.

It our principal wasn't such an anal bitch, we would probably call a few teachers by their first names too.

As I said, outside of Ireland people do things differently. In the UK (or indeed South Africa even), depending on the situation, it is seen as perfectly fine to do so.

Where in Britain is this bizzare constuction used? Exactly where because I've been all over and met all kinds and I've NEVER heard it used.
As I said earlier anyone talking like that is waving a big flag around identifying themselves as a kook.

Where in Britain is this bizzare constuction used? Exactly where because I've been all over and met all kinds and I've NEVER heard it used.
As I said earlier anyone talking like that is waving a big flag around identifying themselves as a kook.
In England, for starters. No one makes a distinction if you use either just your first name, both names or a title + names. In some situations it's preferrable you use it. Read other posts in the thread too.

In England, for starters. No one makes a distinction if you use either just your first name, both names or a title + names. In some situations it's preferrable you use it. Read other posts in the thread too.

What? I thought that in England - that any time you entered a room - a manservant would announce your full title and full name and that as you entered you would give a slight bow to the crowd while your Good Lady would curtsey. Has this changed???

What? I thought that in England - that any time you entered a room - a manservant would announce your full title and full name and that as you entered you would give a slight bow to the crowd while your Good Lady would curtsey. Has this changed???
Meh, sadly yes. Went away the last decade. :p

Meh, sadly yes. Went away the last decade. :p

Cor! Guess I'll have to sell my wig and tights.

Seeing as how I got done taking a class on the sociology of business not too long ago I can safely answer your question with a high degree of certainty. The interesting part is that your question contains the very answer I give.


The familiarity is false. It doesn't exist. In American business culture calling each other by first name is not a sign of familiarity. In point of fact the expectation of the first name has become a matter of how business is conducted. If you were to look at the mannerisms and other indicators of formality you would find that those who refer to each other by first name don't necessarily have any kind of intimate knowledge of each other. And in a similar vein you will notice that manners and other customary signs of deference (not unlike your liberal sprinklings of sir into your speech) are still present in areas where a lack of familiarity exists.

NT

Formal titles are almost unheard of in Sweden. When I went from the US school system to the Swedish (at the age of 15) I got a mild culture shock from the fact that we (the students) addressed all teachers by their first name.

I noticed, not for the first time, that we have a very rigidly informal society. It appears that everyone either wants to be known by their first name, or expects to address others by their first names. I remember, and not long ago, either, that one could always count on addressing each other as Mr, Miss, or Mrs. Now, complete strangers, or worse, bosses, are referred to as Mark, Stephanie, Carl, and so on.

I tried an experiment the other day. I sent an email to our out-of-town Human Resources representative. I've never met her, never called, never written. In the greeting, I wrote Dear Ms Jones, instead of the usual brief first name. Then I asked my question and signed it. Her response was "Call me Shirley" and then she went on to answer my question.

In my reply, I thanked her for her help and mentioned that I didn't know her well enough to call her Shirley, so Ms Jones would have to do. I figured that would be the end. I was wrong. She actually called to tell me it was okay to call her by her first name. Damn'd Californians.

Okay, so I'm anal about a lot of things. I don't insist anyone calls me "Doctor", even though I rate it. But I do think a little formality between strangers is just good manners.


Well, these days, family-names are classified secrets.
Probably related with the percentage of today's US population with an unclean rapsheet.

I’m never formal with people – even when at work (IT support). I refer to myself with my name and my occupation: “Hi, it’s ***** from IT Support”. It just seems to work better than way. Also, neither the professors who teaches me at CS department, not those at the Law department (where I work) dresses in such a way as to make me want to use a formal title. In fact, most of them are wearing the same as me – that is: comfortable clothes. There are some who still use more formal business attire – but that is usually the older professors. The younger ones seem to have given up on it entirely.

But that doesn’t mean that I respect them any less. No matter what they wear and how I address them, I still do my utmost to solve their problems as quickly and unobtrusive as possible.

Seeing as how I got done taking a class on the sociology of business not too long ago I can safely answer your question with a high degree of certainty. The interesting part is that your question contains the very answer I give.


The familiarity is false. It doesn't exist. In American business culture calling each other by first name is not a sign of familiarity. In point of fact the expectation of the first name has become a matter of how business is conducted. If you were to look at the mannerisms and other indicators of formality you would find that those who refer to each other by first name don't necessarily have any kind of intimate knowledge of each other. And in a similar vein you will notice that manners and other customary signs of deference (not unlike your liberal sprinklings of sir into your speech) are still present in areas where a lack of familiarity exists.

NT
It appears I have a firm grasp of the obvious. What drove the use of first names, as opposed to the more traditional forms, to address each other?

It appears I have a firm grasp of the obvious. What drove the use of first names, as opposed to the more traditional forms, to address each other?
I guess it's the same thing that led companies to start putting 'your call is important to us' or 'you are one of our most valued customers' etc everywhere. People like to think that they are the centre of the universe, and companies know this. Say 'Mr Jones' and you're just a name on a screen to them; if they call you 'Bob' then the idea is you think they like you, which therefore builds customer loyalty.

I blame english for it, because in german, there is a difference between the informal "du" and the formal "Sie", whereas in english, there is just "you"

I blame english for it, because in german, there is a difference between the informal "du" and the formal "Sie", whereas in english, there is just "you"
Ah, but die deutschen Teenager are quite informal about that. Most of them will refer to others which they have just met (as long as they are of the same name) as "du".

''Be Thou Familiar But By No Means Vulgar''.I've found this Shakespearian quote to be most helpful in these situations,when in doubt go for the formal title or name.

When it comes to respect, i think the most respectful thing is to call someone what they prefer to be called. People may think that calling me ma'am is showing me respect, but since i prefer to be addressed by my first name, the latter is really the more respectful thing to do. That's what i try to do with other people. If i know someone is more formal and would prefer to be called by their title, i'll do that. If they prefer to be called by their first name, i'll do that instead.

I dunno, it seems naturally accepted in my area that one calls one's peers bty their first names. ALthough sometimes, I do refer to people as "Miss" or "Mr." [insert name]. But only because it weirds them out. And amuses me.

ALthough, I admit, more often than not, I refer to people as "motherfuckers." As in, "'Sup with it, motherfucker?"

Precisely. I just shudder at the thought though of calling one of my professors by their first name. I like there to be a certain distance between me and those that I do not know in a proximite, friendly manner. Unless someone is my own age.

Or colour.

I will call people Mr. and Mrs no problem. I wont call them sir or ma'am however. It makes me think of BDSM. Why dont I call my boss master while I am at it.