NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rib.html

Apparently, while a good number call themselves Christians, they are such in name only. The general practice of Christianity in the UK seems to have waned considerably.

For those of you in the UK, are you a practicing Christian, a Christian in name only, some other religion (Jedi), or an atheist?

This is news?

This is news? :rolleyes:
I thought there might be some "fair and balanced" posting to do, in light of the "Islam incompatible..." thread.

I thought there might be some "fair and balanced" posting to do, in light of the "Islam incompatible..." thread.

I sort of got that, but then I thought..."this isn't news".

I sort of got that, but then I thought..."this isn't news".
Yeah, I know, you felt a tremor in the Force...

Yeah much is the same over on this side of the pond too… people like feeling part of a group but most of the time don’t like doing the work for it. We the same thing in student organizations … lots of members but not many ACTIVE members, it does not seem limited to religion alone.

Most religions are incompatable with human nature.

now this is utter bollocks..

Christian 42,079 71.6%


first of all, 72% of people in the UK is ridiculously high.
secondly 42,000 of 60 million is not 72%...



33% of the British public consider that 'religion is important'

wow, that's a whole third of the country i've never had any contact with then...


However, half of all adults aged 18 and over who belonged to a religion have never attended a religious service."

haha that's telling....

as is this

[Church attendance 1999] 7.5% on an average Sunday



edit: and myself, i'm technically athiest but practically a-religious

Most religions are incompatable with human nature.

So are a lot of political ideals,but millions of people still follow them.

Atheist. I was actually brought up CofE, going to Sunday school (Allegedly I was kicked out for not playing along) and a CofE primary school (but it was the closest one, and the Jehova's Witnesses went there too). My parents are areligious but it was to make my Grandmother happy or something. I never "believed" or understood the reasons for doing so.

Many people do consider themselves Christian for no reason; someone once tried to persuade me that as I was English I must be Christian... Many more have no religion at all.

PM: That would be in thousands (thousand thousand = million). Those numbers are from the Census, I think.

i'm an ex-christian atheist-leaning agnostic. one of my best friends calls himself a catholic and believes in god and stuff but i think he only goes to church at christmas and easter. of my three friends that claim to be christian only one goes to church regularly and she's a born again evangelical fundi nutjob so that's hardly surprising. she also goes about converting alcoholics and homeless people and speaking in tongues and stuff.

PM: That would be in thousands (thousand thousand = million). Those numbers are from the Census, I think.
ah yes, good point. didn't see that.... 42,000 thousand... 42 million..... yes, i'll be quiet now :(


i still stand that it overclaims the importance of christianity in this country (or, at least, the people misrepresent themselves)

someone once tried to persuade me that as I was English I must be Christian...

same here

ah yes, good point. didn't see that.... 42,000 thousand... 42 million..... yes, i'll be quiet now :(


i still stand that it overclaims the importance of christianity in this country (or, at least, the people misrepresent themselves)

Well, the site I linked to seems to say what you are saying - that the statistics overrepresent Christianity in the UK.

So, would you say that other than the "fun" holidays like Christmas, is Christianity largely dead in the UK?

i still stand that it overclaims the importance of christianity in this country (or, at least, the people misrepresent themselves)It's the same in much of N. Europe. A hell of a lot of people identify themselves as belonging to the state religion, but relatively few do anything more than that, and mostly, the people who actively practice the state religions make up for around 10%.

I blame it on education & personal liberty. Of course, heathen as I am, I don't consider it a bad thing.

first of all, 72% of people in the UK is ridiculously high.
secondly 42,000 of 60 million is not 72%...


No, but it is rather a large percentage of the very small number in the UK that actively practise religion.

So, would you say that other than the "fun" holidays like Christmas, is Christianity largely dead in the UK?
Christmas and Easter can't really be considered Christian holidays here any more.
Dead? Maybe not. There are some very enthusiastic Christian groups. It's just no longer something where you're a part of an enormous, monolithic organisation and have to go to church every Sunday. It's something that a few people will decide to do, and mostly they'll do it by themselves.
I have three friends who're Christian. Only one of them goes to church with any regularity, and he's the son of a Vicar.

Edit: I just remembered a friend who's a Jehova's Witness (Oops! Sorry!). He goes to their meeting things sometimes, although he can definitely be considered a believer.

I think it's probably a comfort issue for most people. In the past organised religion gave people a lot of piece of mind that if they followed certain rules then they'd be all right, but due to a more pervasive shame culture that if they didn't go to church then they wouldn't be good people and would go to hell. But in Britain as it is now there's none of the same shame culture and churchgoing isn't default, but people aren't going to renounce the sense of comfort and sense of belonging that you get from knowing that all that religion is there for you if you need it.

I blame it on education & personal liberty. Of course, heathen as I am, I don't consider it a bad thing.
Yes, damn that freedom and education!! If left unchecked, these twin plagues threaten to spread across the entire globe, in a hideous wave of prosperity, equality, and rational thinking!!!

Somebody think of the children! WHY, OH WHY, WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?

my dad thinks he's a christian and shouts at you for being blasphemous.

I think it's probably a comfort issue for most people. In the past organised religion gave people a lot of piece of mind that if they followed certain rules then they'd be all right, but due to a more pervasive shame culture that if they didn't go to church then they wouldn't be good people and would go to hell. But in Britain as it is now there's none of the same shame culture and churchgoing isn't default, but people aren't going to renounce the sense of comfort and sense of belonging that you get from knowing that all that religion is there for you if you need it.

Religion gives me no comfort at all... :/

Yes, damn that freedom and education!! If left unchecked, these twin plagues threaten to spread across the entire globe, in a hideous wave of prosperity, equality, and rational thinking!!!

Somebody think of the children! WHY, OH WHY, WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?

Well, then why don't we do this to the Islamic nations? You know, make it possible for them to abandon Islam and make it wither away to an outdated modality?

Marc Sageman, who served with the CIA in Afghanistan, studied the biographies of 400 terrorists who targeted the USA. He's also the author of Understanding Terror Networks

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812238087/ref=ase_parapunditcom-20/102-6644609-2669732?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=parapunditcom-20

, published in April 2004. Sageman writes:

"...Most people think that terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing - the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic, or, in this country, some believe they’re just plain evil. Taking these perceived root causes in turn, three quarters of my sample came from the upper or middle class. The vast majority - 90 percent - came from caring, intact families. Sixty-three percent had gone to college, as compared with the 5-6 percent that's usual for the third world. These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways."

Peter Schramm of the Ashbrook Centre has more on this issue, as well as a link to the full study and its methodology.
http://noleftturns.ashbrook.org/comment.asp?blogID=5560

This result may seem odd to some people, and we're also seeing growing prosperity in some countries correlating with stronger Islamist movements. Why might that be? StrategyPage offers an intriguing argument that says what we're seeing is a predictable reaction to collision of Islamic societies with a Western culture whose tenets of self-will and self-definition are too dangerous to certain sects of Islam. Hence those elites in Sageman's profile who undergo a crisis of faith following extended contact, turn to Islamist movements for resolution, then take their Qu'ranic and Qtubite/neo-Kharijite admonitions to a logical conclusion.

http://www.discardedlies.com/archives/2004/11/strategypage_two_steps_forward_one_step_back_the_islamic_reformation_has_begun.php

One way to wipe out Islam is to make it wither away, just as Christianity has withered in the UK and Europe (and to some extent in the US).

Religion gives me no comfort at all... :/
No but that's looking at it from an external perspective. For lots of people going as far as declaring themselves atheists would be going out of their comfort zones. I actually think that's one of the better aspects of a moderate state religion like CofE, in that it can give people that piece of mind as well as the solemnity it can give to funerals, weddings etc., without any negative aspects such as feelings of moral superioity or evangelising.

So are a lot of political ideals,but millions of people still follow them.

I never claimed that humans were very bright.;)

Well, then why don't we do this to the Islamic nations? You know, make it possible for them to abandon Islam and make it wither away to an outdated modality?

*snipped for length*
Look, you don't have to sell me on the merits of providing access to education and equal rights. We've known for decades that the fastest way to eliminate poverty is to provide women with education and access to reproductive freedom, and we've also known for decades that reducing poverty is pretty much the fastest way to reduce crime rates and violence in a society.

Look, you don't have to sell me on the merits of providing access to education and equal rights. We've known for decades that the fastest way to eliminate poverty is to provide women with education and access to reproductive freedom, and we've also known for decades that reducing poverty is pretty much the fastest way to reduce crime rates and violence in a society.
So, if my goal is to destroy Islam as a potent force (in the way that Christianity seems to have been sapped by Western secularism in free nations), how shall we introduce secularism and Western values to these Islamic nations in order to allow the people to walk out of the mosques for good?

Well.. It's not terribly strange religion's gone downhill in northern Europe. Most of the answers provided by religions, is now taken care of by free education that doesn't restrict ideas & critical thinking.

The moral absolutes aren't really wanted anymore, as individual ethics makes for freer & more stable societies, and a justice system that focuses more on rehabilitation than retribution - which in turn produces fewer criminals.

The divine rewards & punishments aren't as appealing either, as everyone noow have access to a fully functional & impartial justice system, and people both enjoy some measure of social mobility & equality. Makes a lot less comforting to know the rich guy down the block will burn in the lake of fire.. Actually, it's likely to make you think the god is terribly unjust.

And the comfort? Well, there's not much stigma associated with visiting a psychologist, and those guys have more than a Bible & a spoonfull charisma. Priests don't have a whole lot to offer by comparison.

Christian fundamentalist till the age of 8.

Committed atheist ever since.

Christianity isn't dead in the Uk but it's certainly not feeling very well.

Yeah most people just put down C of E, I feel, because it's the default option and it's less work than actually declaring oneself atheist.

I've been agnostic since I could understand the term and comprehend the question of the existence of the Abrahamic God.

Religions are not the enemy, its the organisations that milk the people that mark themselves as part of religion are.They must be checked and destroyed by goverments, not people that believe in religions. No goverment has ever succeeded in destroying a religion by punishing its believers, including Rome.
Protect peoples rights and welfare equally in the courts, give them jobs etc and people wont turn to religious organisations for charity and therefore wont be used as fodder. And ban large religious organisations or take it under goverment control without making any exceptions about any religion. In the end people will still be able to have religion but do their duties to their countries not some religious figures.

first of all, 72% of people in the UK is ridiculously high.
secondly 42,000 of 60 million is not 72%...
Those were thousands of thousands. 42,000 thousands is 42 million, which is about 71% of 60 million.

edit: and myself, i'm technically athiest but practically a-religious
Atheist = areligious*

*assuming that religion = theism

Look, you don't have to sell me on the merits of providing access to education and equal rights. We've known for decades that the fastest way to eliminate poverty is to provide women with education and access to reproductive freedom, and we've also known for decades that reducing poverty is pretty much the fastest way to reduce crime rates and violence in a society.
Men can benefit from education too! (Though I fail to see what the vaguely termed 'reproductive rights' have to with prosperity.)

So, if my goal is to destroy Islam as a potent force (in the way that Christianity seems to have been sapped by Western secularism in free nations), how shall we introduce secularism and Western values to these Islamic nations in order to allow the people to walk out of the mosques for good?
Science, Corn flakes and commercialism.

Men can benefit from education too!

Oh, to be sure! I wasn't meaning to imply that educating males is not to be supported. The problem is that women are much more frequently denied access to education and equal rights. That's why there has been particular attention given to the impact of education on women.


(Though I fail to see what the vaguely termed 'reproductive rights' have to with prosperity.)
Countless studies have directly linked access to reproductive health care with prosperity, using a range of different "prosperity indicators." When women are given education and access to contraception and abortion, the health of the society as a whole is improved. Infant mortality drops, death in childbirth drops, average life span increases, poverty rates decline. There are even studies that link increased reproductive rights to lower rates of domestic violence and child abuse. These kinds of studies have been done for decades, and have been performed in dozens of countries around the world.

I'm 17 years old and my teachers at my free government school told me that religion is bad and that's okay to have sex, so long as I get a free condom at the nurse's office. My parents didn't agree but they aren't qualified union professionals like my teachers, so obviously I believe my teachers. I hate my parents for trying to make me do things I don't want to do. I'm glad that the government offers impartial advice on these things, the fundies certainly wouldn't.

It's really good that humanity has evolved beyond fairy tales like the idea of a higher moral law.

I'm 17 years old and my teachers at my free government school told me that religion is bad and that's okay to have sex, so long as I get a free condom at the nurse's office. My parents didn't agree but they aren't qualified union professionals like my teachers, so obviously I believe my teachers. I hate my parents for trying to make me do things I don't want to do. I'm glad that the government offers impartial advice on these things, the fundies certainly wouldn't.

It's really good that humanity has evolved beyond fairy tales like the idea of a higher moral law.

Which school do you go to? Teachers are forbidden to advocate their religous or political views to their students, many are wary of even revealing their position. If your teachers are really telling you that religion is bad then you can (and should) report them.

However, given the tone of your post I'm not particuarly inclined to believe you.

Yeah most people just put down C of E, I feel, because it's the default option and it's less work than actually declaring oneself atheist.


What do you mean exactly by "less work?" :confused:

They don't say it's bad directly, but they do make fun of people. They are OK with religion so long as you only go on Sunday and don't try to bring it up in class.

Religions are not the enemy, its the organisations that milk the people that mark themselves as part of religion are.They must be checked and destroyed by goverments, not people that believe in religions. No goverment has ever succeeded in destroying a religion by punishing its believers, including Rome.
Protect peoples rights and welfare equally in the courts, give them jobs etc and people wont turn to religious organisations for charity and therefore wont be used as fodder. And ban large religious organisations or take it under goverment control without making any exceptions about any religion. In the end people will still be able to have religion but do their duties to their countries not some religious figures.

Surely the 'nationalisation' of religion is not the answer. Afterall, wasn't that what was wrong with the Ottoman Empire? The Sultan's role as Caliph, the supreme authority on matters Islamic, gave him an unearned infallibility that couldn't be questioned publically, which in effect led to an alienated concentration of power in Istanbul that was unable to react to external stimuli.

What do you mean exactly by "less work?" :confused:

British are people are so supremely apathetic towards religion that many will not even bother to put the intellectual effort into the thoughts required to question their beliefs. So that when asked for their religion, they parrot-squawk, "Seeuvee."

Besides, many agnostics view the definate acceptance of Atheism as spiritually risky... I'm sure Pascal would be proud.

Am I the only spiritual satanist here?
(cant be bothered to read it all)

This is pretty much a given. People of my generation (I'm currently 19) are either expressedly Atheist or non-practising to the point that they never discuss religion, period. Religion is sometimes used as an excuse for bigotry, but it's never done so because htey actually believe. Religion is dead here. I'm glad.

Religion is dead here. I'm glad.

Religion alive and well down South. Mostly amongst the old.

Am I the only spiritual satanist here?

No.

Not quite sure what that has to do with anything though...

No.

Not quite sure what that has to do with anything though...

Well its a topic about christian incompatability thats evolved into just about religion, so I thought "why not?"

Religion alive and well down South. Mostly amongst the old.
The key word in this sentence is "old". Once they're dead, they'll take religion with them.

This is pretty much a given. People of my generation (I'm currently 19) are either expressedly Atheist or non-practising to the point that they never discuss religion, period. Religion is sometimes used as an excuse for bigotry, but it's never done so because htey actually believe. Religion is dead here. I'm glad.

The main problem with religion is that it doesn't allow unlimited sexual gratification without the worry of becoming pregnant.

I would like religion better if it accepted this truth.

The key word in this sentence is "old". Once they're dead, they'll take religion with them.

We will finally have a more fair society.

The key word in this sentence is "old". Once they're dead, they'll take religion with them.


We'll find out one way or the other in a few decades. Personally, I think it'll swing back into fashion as atheism goes out of style. Who knows?

The main problem with religion is that it doesn't allow unlimited sexual gratification without the worry of becoming pregnant.

I would like religion better if it accepted this truth.

Umm, since when dosnt it accept that?
And you will usualy become pregnant, without protection

Countless studies have directly linked access to reproductive health care with prosperity, using a range of different "prosperity indicators." When women are given education and access to contraception and abortion, the health of the society as a whole is improved. Infant mortality drops, death in childbirth drops, average life span increases, poverty rates decline. There are even studies that link increased reproductive rights to lower rates of domestic violence and child abuse. These kinds of studies have been done for decades, and have been performed in dozens of countries around the world.
I agree, but the right to abortion is not as important as education. I live in a prosperous country with many educated female entrepeneurs, yet abortion is illegal. We've had only female presidents since 1990.

Still Christian here.


By the way, for those who think Christianity is dead in the UK...head to its northern regions. You will see a completely different image.

Am I the only spiritual satanist here?
(cant be bothered to read it all)

Pardon the pun, but what the hell is a "spiritual satanist"? I thought I had heard of all forms of Satanism. Apparently I was wrong.

By the way, for those who think Christianity is dead in the UK...head to its northern regions. You will see a completely different image.Which makes perfect sense. Religion in Britain today is mostly reserved for old people & people with little education & a low income. Without trying to offend anyone, that's what you get up north.

It's interesting how religion seems to be highly dependent on social injustice, lack of education & opportunity. Part of a negative social heritage, methinks.