NationStates Jolt Archive

Ive only read a little about scientology, but everything I have heard has been crap.
Even so I want to hear more about it so I can laugh more.
Ive heard about the silent births ect.
I also find it funny that the guy (l ronsomething?)who set it up said that the way to make money is through religion and then set up a religion.
does anyone actually really belive that scientology is right?
furthermore...are any of the people on this site scientologists?
Is is any more crap than any other religion?

I like Scientology.

Or, rather, I like their money and want to steal it from them.

fair enough

L. Ron Hubbard is the guy's name.

When you get down to it, it is not really any more "crap" than any other religion. It does have a tendancy to be completely unproveable by science, even completely ignoring scientific theories about the Universe's age (they say it's something like 75 trillion years old, rather than 6 billion) and saying other religions are things implanted in our minds by evil alien overlords or something, but then most religions do tend to have some elements that require one to throw scientific reason out of the window.

Scientology is no different in that respect to a lot of other faiths, even though it may take it to the extreme. I don't really agree with it, but if people want to believe in it and don't force it upon me, well, fair play to them in all honesty.

How DARE you insult crap by comparing it to Scientology! You better watch out or you'll be constipated for a year as your body inflicts revenge for such an unwarrented and obscene statement!

But honestly, I don't see how anyone who hasn't loaned out his or her last working braincell to a zombie can't see through Scientology. I've had the misfortune to read Dianetics years ago and it was an absolute farce of science.

Look around on the Internet - there's plenty of websites that expose Scientology for what it is. Just be careful; it's a very dangerous cult to get involved in.

Scientology is just too damn weird. Why didn't they include a virgin birth, or people rising from the dead, or a bunch of water-walking Jews? Give us SOMETHING that makes sense!

Scientology is just too damn weird. Why didn't they include a virgin birth, or people rising from the dead, or a bunch of water-walking Jews? Give us SOMETHING that makes sense!

Who needs water-walking Jews when you've got space flight-capable DC-10s?

Scientoligy is different from any other religion as it is a cult, designed to make money. Other religions do not try and explain the universe as much as scientoligy does, the other religions mention a creator, but does not talk about how the universe works or how he created us so it does not just throw scientific reasoning out of the window. Scientoligy on the other hand thinks they have all knowledge of everything, despite being against popular scientific beliefs. They hide their information away from you showing how they only accept succesful rich people.

I can see what you mean.Im not intending to join the church of scientology if thats what it is-I have no money I cant progress.
Does anyone know any scientologists?(except for the famous ones)
I find it difficult that people can believe in the ressurection-but I guess were more used to hearing about the big J walking on water ect than we are about aliens being in our bodies or something.

I just dont know what they actually think?thats why I started this thread,so I can find out more and laugh at it.

From the wiki on scientology:

As an alternative, Hubbard offered a concoction which he called the "Barley Formula", made from barley water, homogenized milk, and corn syrup or honey. Hubbard claims that "I picked it up in Roman days." (Corn syrup is made from maize grain, which was unknown to Europeans before colonization of the New World.)

Hubbard is 2000 years old! :D

For instance, Hubbard's 1958 book Have You Lived Before This Life documents past lives described by individual Scientologists during auditing sessions. These included memories of being "deceived into a love affair with a robot decked out as a beautiful red-haired girl", being run over by a Martian bishop driving a steamroller, being transformed into an intergalactic walrus that perished after falling out of a flying saucer, and being "a very happy being who strayed to the planet Nostra 23,064,000,000 years ago".

...
...
Funny stuff, funny stuff.

Who needs water-walking Jews when you've got space flight-capable DC-10s?
Pfft, that's just silly. And have you heard the NAMES in Scientology? I mean, "Xenu"? I ask you. That's just plain goofy. Give me a good Jehovah or Yahweh any day of the week.

Who needs water-walking Jews when you've got space flight-capable DC-10s?
I believe they were DC-8's:p

Pfft, that's just silly. And have you heard the NAMES in Scientology? I mean, "Xenu"? I ask you. That's just plain goofy. Give me a good Jehovah or Yahweh any day of the week.

You probably just accumulated yourself some serious body thetans with that remark.

You probably just accumulated yourself some serious body thetans with that remark.
And there's another bit of foolishness! "Thetans." Pfft. Everybody knows that it's evil demons that cause illness, not the souls of dead aliens.

I believe they were DC-8's:p

I've honestly heard it both ways. Xenu probably had both. :p

Sound like scientology is a crap version of a sci fi book.
I would more readily believe in jedi than this crap.
what with the silent birth then, I hear scientologists also like to seperate newborns from their mothers at birth or something.

Sound like scientology is a crap version of a sci fi book.
I would more readily believe in jedi than this crap.
what with the silent birth then, I hear scientologists also like to seperate newborns from their mothers at birth or something.

Well, L. Ron Hubbard was a (mediocre) sci-fi author, after all.

As far as I know, the silent birth thing is so the infant doesn't start life with traumatic memories and get more thetans or something.

Sound like scientology is a crap version of a sci fi book.
That's pretty close (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard#Education.2C_pulp_fiction.2C_and_military_service).

Edit: and while I'm linking, and previous poster beat me to the answer, and OP can't be bothered to look up anything:
Scientology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology).
Pseudoreligion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoreligion).
Scientologists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists).
Celebrity scientologists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_Celebrities).
Silent birth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_birth).
Subgenius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgenius).

Do not question Scientology, or Tom Cruise will destroy you with his evil POWAH!

http://franklinmint.fm/blog/archives/images/tomcruise2.gif

what are thetans?

L. Ron Hubbard is the guy's name.

When you get down to it, it is not really any more "crap" than any other religion. It does have a tendancy to be completely unproveable by science, even completely ignoring scientific theories about the Universe's age (they say it's something like 75 trillion years old, rather than 6 billion) and saying other religions are things implanted in our minds by evil alien overlords or something, but then most religions do tend to have some elements that require one to throw scientific reason out of the window.

Scientology is no different in that respect to a lot of other faiths, even though it may take it to the extreme. I don't really agree with it, but if people want to believe in it and don't force it upon me, well, fair play to them in all honesty.
Well, yes and no.

Scientology may not be "crazier" than what usually passes for religion (although I personally would say it is - Aliens? Hydrogen bombs? Volcanoes? Teleporting? - but one could certainly argue about that), however - and that's a big however - it is a lot, lot worse. It's a cult, and an evil one at that, and their only goal is to make as much money as possible.

It's like one big, nightmarish corporation (literally, they have holdings and business interests all over the place) that thrives on literally brainwashing people, making them dependent, sucking every last bit of money out of them for all those mandatory classes that cost thousands and thousands of dollars, and practically enslaving them to work for the cult for no wages.

I know they call themselves "church", and they have been very pissed with my homecountry (Germany) for mayn years now, because the government here hasn't given them the coveted tax-exempt (hello, money again) status given to churches because it says Scientology is in fact a business venture. Plus, the dangerous cult factor has led to them being under constant government surveillance.

People who want to leave Scientology have been threatened, hurt, or killed, and critics are faced with vicious counter-campaigning and threats. (Hence the dearth of articles and exposés on Scientology, which seems esp. strange considering the exposure it has gotten lately through the antics of Crazy Tom Cruise.

All everyone should know about Scientology can be found here: www.xenu.net. - the resource for all things Scientology.

These may help you:
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

last one has a great song to it. Anyone know who sings it?

what are thetans?
Okay, here's the story:

A zillion years ago, this evil space dictator named Xenu captured all these aliens, and brought them all to Earth. He chained them up inside volcanos, and then detonated nuclear warheads that killed all the aliens. The souls of these aliens float around on Earth and infect human beings, giving us bad feelings and false memories.

what are thetans?

Dead alien ghosts. I think they were all thrown from Xenu's interstellar DC-8/10's into volcanos or something.

EDIT: Bottle, you totally beat me. Have a cookie!

EDIT II: Sweet, I'm a CyberSheep Farmer.

These may help you:
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

last one has a great song to it. Anyone know who sings it?
THANK YOU I was going through ytmnd to find the animated one for this thread :)

They took of their scientology section on the front page.

what are thetans?
The enemies of the cult of Scientology.

Yeah boy is he a good ambassador for any movement.

Scientology was a cheap scam to win a bet but Mr. Hubbard made one fatal mistake. He underestimated the stupidity of some people and when his little scam exploded into a full on religion he was probably as startled as everyone else. At that point he should have gotten them all to take their little poison capsules or something. Now we're stuck with a shitload of these microcephalic authority worshipping tools.

One thing America really sucks at is religion, I mean the Mormons worshipping biscuit tins from China and the Scientologists worshipping bad space opera (their term not mine).

Check out Operation Clambake (http://xenu.net) for the skinny.

all reading about scientology should start at

www.xenu.net

it has everything you need to know

http://www.insolitology.com/organized/scientology.htm

Yeah, It's pretty crap. More crap than other religions because it takes all your money, kills people, and silences anyone who dares expose it.

Well, yes and no.

Scientology may not be "crazier" than what usually passes for religion (although I personally would say it is - Aliens? Hydrogen bombs? Volcanoes? Teleporting? - but one could certainly argue about that), however - and that's a big however - it is a lot, lot worse. It's a cult, and an evil one at that, and their only goal is to make as much money as possible.

It's like one big, nightmarish corporation (literally, they have holdings and business interests all over the place) that thrives on literally brainwashing people, making them dependent, sucking every last bit of money out of them for all those mandatory classes that cost thousands and thousands of dollars, and practically enslaving them to work for the cult for no wages.

I know they call themselves "church", and they have been very pissed with my homecountry (Germany) for mayn years now, because the government here hasn't given them the coveted tax-exempt (hello, money again) status given to churches because it says Scientology is in fact a business venture. Plus, the dangerous cult factor has led to them being under constant government surveillance.

People who want to leave Scientology have been threatened, hurt, or killed, and critics are faced with vicious counter-campaigning and threats. (Hence the dearth of articles and exposés on Scientology, which seems esp. strange considering the exposure it has gotten lately through the antics of Crazy Tom Cruise.

All everyone should know about Scientology can be found here: www.xenu.net. - the resource for all things Scientology.

that doesnt sound that funny.dammit more things to make me think.
is it true that there are levels of scientology or something and they cost loads of money to progress to the next level.
But there are other 'churches' that ask for peoples money, dont the jehovah's witnesses ask for 10% of your income.To be fair though im sure jehovahs witnesses try and kill people who want to leave.
Tom cruise is crazy, i dont see why he would change from one opressive religion to another more opressive religion.(I think he was catholic) most catholics(including me) want to rebel from organised religion as soon as they can(inc me)why would you join a religion that sounds sooo implausible

THANK YOU I was going through ytmnd to find the animated one for this thread :)

They took of their scientology section on the front page.
One of them is still there, as it's their top-rated clip.

Just sat thru the two I linked and it's pretty disturbing stuff. I always viewed them as crackpots, but in reality they're creepy, nasty, evil crackpots.

It certainly sounds it.

Yeah boy is he a good ambassador for any movement.

Scientology was a cheap scam to win a bet but Mr. Hubbard made one fatal mistake. He underestimated the stupidity of some people and when his little scam exploded into a full on religion he was probably as startled as everyone else. At that point he should have gotten them all to take their little poison capsules or something. Now we're stuck with a shitload of these microcephalic authority worshipping tools.

One thing America really sucks at is religion, I mean the Mormons worshipping biscuit tins from China and the Scientologists worshipping bad space opera (their term not mine).

Check out Operation Clambake (http://xenu.net) for the skinny.

Well, uh. Hubbard was pretty crazy, actually, if you look at him carefully. Certifiably insane, maybe. I think he started to believe his own crap.

Well, uh. Hubbard was pretty crazy, actually, if you look at him carefully. Certifiably insane, maybe. I think he started to believe his own crap.
He would have had to. Otherwise it'd have been impossible to maintain a facade for as long as he did.
He did suffer from schizotypal symptons, if not full-blown schizophrenia. Which explains how he came up with his whole scientology ideas.

Well, uh. Hubbard was pretty crazy, actually, if you look at him carefully. Certifiably insane, maybe. I think he started to believe his own crap.
I was just about to ask that.Did he really believ all this crap he wrote, cos I know some people can convince themselves things are real when they are not, even if they made it up themselves.
I just dont get how anyone can believe this crap, I find it hard enough to believe that people can beileve in vhristianity(or any other religion for that matter) but at least they have some basis in reality.This is just too weird.

is it true that there are levels of scientology or something and they cost loads of money to progress to the next level.
Yes, that's where those huge course fees come in. IIRC, the first classes are either free or at least relatively cheap, but once you've been brainwashed into believing in what they tell you (which they seem to be able to do amazingly quickly and efficiently) the fees skyrocket into literally the tens of thousands of dollars.
BTW, you won't learn about the "crazy stuff" (aliens, volcanoes, etc.) till really late in the game, i.e. only when you've reached a high level. In the beginning it's more like your typical self-help therapy stuff. Except they don't do it to help you but to get your money and your free labor.


But there are other 'churches' that ask for peoples money, dont the jehovah's witnesses ask for 10% of your income.To be fair though im sure jehovahs witnesses try and kill people who want to leave.
I don't know much about Jehovah's Witnesses, but I think you're right about the 10%.
But yeah, for one, 10% of your income isn't the same as "sell everything you have, betray your friends, and give us your lifeblood", and, as you said, Jehovah's Witnesses may not react kindly to people leaving but I think they're a good deal less evil than Scientology.

If he was insane, and now almost everyone has heard of scientology and thinks its a steaming pile of turd, then why do new members join, dont they read papers or have any common sense whatsoever.
If sopmeone came uip to me and said join my religion, it was started by a second rate sci fi writer, and its all about aliens being destroyed in a nuclear holocaust and now they haunt us ect, I would just say outright, fuck off do you think im stupid or something?
its insanity!!

If he was insane, and now almost everyone has heard of scientology and thinks its a steaming pile of turd, then why do new members join, dont they read papers or have any common sense whatsoever.
If sopmeone came uip to me and said join my religion, it was started by a second rate sci fi writer, and its all about aliens being destroyed in a nuclear holocaust and now they haunt us ect, I would just say outright, fuck off do you think im stupid or something?
its insanity!!

Some people are extremely open to "suggestion" and the Scientology people, as much as they might encourage their members to go on rants against it, are very knowledgeable when it comes to psychology and very proficient in the use of psychiatry.

that doesnt sound that funny.dammit more things to make me think.
is it true that there are levels of scientology or something and they cost loads of money to progress to the next level.
But there are other 'churches' that ask for peoples money, dont the jehovah's witnesses ask for 10% of your income.To be fair though im sure jehovahs witnesses try and kill people who want to leave.
Tom cruise is crazy, i dont see why he would change from one opressive religion to another more opressive religion.(I think he was catholic) most catholics(including me) want to rebel from organised religion as soon as they can(inc me)why would you join a religion that sounds sooo implausible

All christian churches (hat I know of) ask that you give 10% of your income to them, it's called a tithe. The difference between that and Scientology is that Scientology gets a lot more then just 10% and Christians don't kill you/excomunicate you/sue the pants off of you for not paying up.

There are two interconnected reasons why people join Scientology
The biggest one of course is because people are Stupid (All people, all the time, everywhere)
Next is that joining scientology has a certain shock value, its an attention getting thing, People like attention (Esp. Stupid people, and as we have previously discussed, all people are stupid)

Wow, that xenu.net site is depressing. I always viewed Scientology as just another one of those insane but harmless things which only an idiot could possibly buy into. It seems it's a lot more evil than I thought.

To paraphrase L. Ron himself:

Writing isn't going to bring in the money. If you really want to get rich, found a religion.



Either that or pop enough uppers to have a religious vision, and then keep popping more.

Well, uh. Hubbard was pretty crazy, actually, if you look at him carefully. Certifiably insane, maybe. I think he started to believe his own crap.
I tend to think he was hopped up on more crazy pills and "herbs" rather than suffering from a mental disease.

Point of slight interest is the fact that the number of members of scientology are massively overblown, as far as anyone can make out past all their lies and bluster, the number of believers peeked in the 80's and the religion is now merely getting richer rather than bigger.

But there are other 'churches' that ask for peoples money, dont the jehovah's witnesses ask for 10% of your income.To be fair though im sure jehovahs witnesses try and kill people who want to leave.
The 10% donation is called a tithe, incidently. Most religions have it. But notice - it is just 10%, not your entire life savings.

Jovvies don't kill. What they (and other religions, like the exclusive Brethern) do if someone leaves is ostracize them, which means viewing them as never having existed. Not even having died, just never been.
Which is a nasty and sad thing to do to someone. There's quite a few Jovvies and Brethern where my Mum teaches. She told me that a kid she taught a few years back left the fold when he was 16 or 17 and not long after his mother came in to enrol his younger brother (she teaches primary). When Mum asked the mother for names of siblings etc (for the usual form), the mother said "none". The kid then said, "What about ...."(can't remember his name) and the mother just told him to be quiet and repeated that she only had one son.

There's something majorly screwed up with a religion that does that to a family, imo.



Interestingly, even Buddhism isn't safe from this sort of emotional blackmail. When I was in Tibet over Easter I went to a Buddhist monastry. I was told by my guide that boys are enrolled really young (5 or 6) and train to be monks (there's several levels). Before they reach the first level, at age 16, they're given the option of leaving the monastry.
Here's the catch though:
If you leave, you can never come back and none of the other monks will ever acknowledge your existence. Also it's highly unlikely your family will have you back, as it's a great shame to them if their son leaves the priesthood. So you dumped out on the road pretty much with no where to go, and no real skills other than being a monk. Your entire life starts right from scratch.
If you stay and take the first level, you basically can't leave.
Bloody big decision to force onto a 15 yr old. Stay in something you don't like but having a secure life or face having to start your life all over again with no-one there for you.
I lost a lot of respect for Buddhism when I found this out.

If he was insane, and now almost everyone has heard of scientology and thinks its a steaming pile of turd, then why do new members join, dont they read papers or have any common sense whatsoever.
If sopmeone came uip to me and said join my religion, it was started by a second rate sci fi writer, and its all about aliens being destroyed in a nuclear holocaust and now they haunt us ect, I would just say outright, fuck off do you think im stupid or something?
its insanity!!
Good question. I don't know.
I do think, however, that unfortunately *not* "almost everyone" has heard enough of Scientology to know it's a steaming pile of turd.

I mean, you obviously had thought/read about it to some degree, yet you knew about the crazy shit, but not about the evil shit.

And there have been threads here before where lots of people were surprised to find out that Scientology is in fact not "just another crackpot scheme, same as every other religion - harmless and who cares?".

So if even those people who are already relatively educated about Scientology don't really know the half of it, then just imagine what it's like for all the millions out there who never payed an iota of attention to it.

Here in Germany, Scientology is very well known (as an evil cult) because the whole "we want to call ourselves church to sound more legitimate and get tax-exemption and we'll totally sue the whole fucking country to get it" made huge waves back in the nineties.
Culminating 1997 in an infamous open letter to the German government (published as a whole-page ad in the major newspapers) comparing the "persecution" of poor li'l Scientology to the Holocaust. No fucking kidding. The letter was signed, among others, by Crazy Tom Cruise.

It has been awfully quiet for a few years now, though, so I'm not even sure if the kids today still know anything about Scientology the way we did back then (we actually talked about it in classes in school!).

Interestingly, even Buddhism isn't safe from this sort of emotional blackmail. When I was in Tibet over Easter I went to a Buddhist monastry. I was told by my guide that boys are enrolled really young (5 or 6) and train to be monks (there's several levels). Before they reach the first level, at age 16, they're given the option of leaving the monastry.
Here's the catch though:
If you leave, you can never come back and none of the other monks will ever acknowledge your existence. Also it's highly unlikely your family will have you back, as it's a great shame to them if their son leaves the priesthood. So you dumped out on the road pretty much with no where to go, and no real skills other than being a monk. Your entire life starts right from scratch.
If you stay and take the first level, you basically can't leave.
Bloody big decision to force onto a 15 yr old. Stay in something you don't like but having a secure life or face having to start your life all over again with no-one there for you.
I lost a lot of respect for Buddhism when I found this out.

Honestly you shouldnt have lost respect for buddhism, but for those branches of it that have fallen prey to the kind of, well religionification that the buddha had attempted to avoid. It's a shame but over time things always seem to crystalize and lose a lot of what they once held dear.

And as for Jovvies, my boyfreinds family became Jehovahs Witnesses rather late in life, but they talk quite a bit about people only marrying other Brothers or Sisters, and they're off to Meetings all the time.

All of which made me fairly uncomfortable, especially since they dont know im sleeping with their son, but then all organised religion makes me slightly uncomfortable.

If he was insane, and now almost everyone has heard of scientology and thinks its a steaming pile of turd, then why do new members join, dont they read papers or have any common sense whatsoever.
If sopmeone came uip to me and said join my religion, it was started by a second rate sci fi writer, and its all about aliens being destroyed in a nuclear holocaust and now they haunt us ect, I would just say outright, fuck off do you think im stupid or something?
its insanity!!
Yeah, but what if you're going through some really heavy shit, like your mum's just died and/or you're on drugs etc, and have no-one to turn to. And then someone comes up to you and tells you they care and can help you get over your problems.
And they do help, and do appear to be genuinely interested in you and your life and getting you back on track.

Then, once you're sucked in and only then, do they mention about the cost of your on-going therapy and how it's all due to space aliens millions of years fucking you up. And you can pay for the therapy by getting more people to sign up (the bloody thing is just a pyramid scheme).

Do you think you might be a bit more likely to fall for them, then?

Scientology is not a religion. It is a sect.

The difference:

Religion has has all information open - you can read the Bible or Koran and be sure there is nothing more to it. All information is there, the trick is understanding it.

Sects open up information only gradually, you need to advance in "levels". Sometimes you have to pay for it, sometimes to abandon your family, whatever. When you enter a sect, you enter into a deal blindfolded.

Please, don't mix up religions and sects - people might get abused.

Christianity spent centuries hiding the bible from its followers, keeping it in a dead language and such. And practically every religion says that it is impossible to fully understand them without proper study and attending their gatherings of some form.

A religion is merely a system of beliefs that has enough powerful people backing it not to be laughed out of the shop.

Scientology is not a religion. It is a sect.

The difference:

Religion has has all information open - you can read the Bible or Koran and be sure there is nothing more to it. All information is there, the trick is understanding it.

First of all, you are confusing "sect" with "cult."

Secondly, yeah, religion is completely open...except for all the parts of the Bible and the records that have been kept secret by the Catholic Church for centuries. But, other than that, full disclosure...


Sects open up information only gradually, you need to advance in "levels". Sometimes you have to pay for it, sometimes to abandon your family, whatever. When you enter a sect, you enter into a deal blindfolded.

Unlike religions, where you are asked to accept various strange beliefs "on faith," even though you have no way of confirming the accuracy of these beliefs.


Please, don't mix up religions and sects - people might get abused.
Seriously, you are misusing the word "sect." If you are a Methodist, you belong to a sect (your particular Protestant denomination), and you also belong to a religion (Christianity). The two are not mutually exclusive.

Scientology is just too damn weird. Why didn't they include a virgin birth, or people rising from the dead, or a bunch of water-walking Jews? Give us SOMETHING that makes sense!
ain't nothing quite so sarcastic as a full-on Bottle rant... thing... :P


edit: oh and just because someone has to...

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/new_mexico/fsm.jpg > scientology

Good question. I don't know.
I do think, however, that unfortunately *not* "almost everyone" has heard enough of Scientology to know it's a steaming pile of turd.

I mean, you obviously had thought/read about it to some degree, yet you knew about the crazy shit, but not about the evil shit.

And there have been threads here before where lots of people were surprised to find out that Scientology is in fact not "just another crackpot scheme, same as every other religion - harmless and who cares?".

So if even those people who are already relatively educated about Scientology don't really know the half of it, then just imagine what it's like for all the millions out there who never payed an iota of attention to it.

Here in Germany, Scientology is very well known (as an evil cult) because the whole "we want to call ourselves church to sound more legitimate and get tax-exemption and we'll totally sue the whole fucking country to get it" made huge waves back in the nineties.
Culminating 1997 in an infamous open letter to the German government (published as a whole-page ad in the major newspapers) comparing the "persecution" of poor li'l Scientology to the Holocaust. No fucking kidding. The letter was signed, among others, by Crazy Tom Cruise.

It has been awfully quiet for a few years now, though, so I'm not even sure if the kids today still know anything about Scientology the way we did back then (we actually talked about it in classes in school!).

I can see what you mean, scientology has been getting a lot of publicity in britain thanks to 'crazy' tom cruise-and he is crazy,so in other parts of the world I guess some people will fall for it ,and wont have heard the bad press.
What I was talking about is people who have heard about scientology and what some parts are about (like the aliens) and still join.
I thuink its terrible to compare the 'persecution' of scientology to the holocause, pritty insensivive methinks.
also if the alien parts are only revealed at later levels, does that mean that people who have reached these levels and told us what crap it is, (and not been killed by crazy tom cruise)or do they adverise the alien shit?

2 Bottle

Speak of yourself, I am Russian Orthodox :) Full disclosure. The parts that are kept secret are

a) not so secret
b) not a part of the dogma

Feel the difference.

BTW, learning Latin was not prohibited. Theoretically, everbody could have done it. But in Scientology, or by the Krishnaites the info of the higher levels is just secret, no way getting it.

I use the word "sect" correctly, Scientology is a sect, like the guys who burned themselves a few years ago in the US or the Aum Sinrike, or however it is spelled in English. Your later remark is irrelevant - yes, you have to accept faith in God, but in religion you know in what kind of God you believe. Sects do not offer you that boon - classic example are the Ismailites, or the Assassins, as they are better known in the West. They effectively worshipped Satan, while all the underling thought that they worship Allah.

2 Bottle

Speak of yourself, I am Russian Orthodox :) Full disclosure. The parts that are kept secret are

a) not so secret
b) not a part of the dogma

Feel the difference.

BTW, learning Latin was not prohibited. Theoretically, everbody could have done it. But in Scientology, or by the Krishnaites the info of the higher levels is just secret, no way getting it.

I use the word "sect" correctly, Scientology is a sect, like the guys who burned themselves a few years ago in the US or the Aum Sinrike, or however it is spelled in English. Your later remark is irrelevant - yes, you have to accept faith in God, but in religion you know in what kind of God you believe. Sects do not offer you that boon - classic example are the Ismailites, or the Assassins, as they are better known in the West. They effectively worshipped Satan, while all the underling thought that they worship Allah.


You have to be kidding things like books and school and knowledge in general was restricted to the priesthood for a big chunk of history. People could not just “Learn Latin”

And what definition of “Sect” are you using?

sect P Pronunciation Key (s kt)
n.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.


By the definition of sect EVERY sub grouping of Christianity (whether it be catholic or Baptist or orthodox) are correctly defined as “Sects”

Ron Hubbard, 1994

`You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.'

Sure the man is some sort Capitalist icon by now.

2 Bottle

Speak of yourself, I am Russian Orthodox :) Full disclosure. The parts that are kept secret are

a) not so secret
b) not a part of the dogma

Feel the difference.

I'm being dead serious here: if you think that you've read all the parts of the original Bible, you're kidding yourself.


BTW, learning Latin was not prohibited. Theoretically, everbody could have done it. But in Scientology, or by the Krishnaites the info of the higher levels is just secret, no way getting it.

Yeah, sure, every peasent and serf could just run right out and learn Latin. Except, you know, for how the Church wouldn't teach just any yahoo how to speak Latin, and how serfs had this whole thing of living in crushing poverty with absolutely no social or economic mobility.

Just like how the Catholic Church will allow anybody and everybody to read the various texts that are hidden in the Vatican. Oh wait, except they won't.


I use the word "sect" correctly, Scientology is a sect, like the guys who burned themselves a few years ago in the US or the Aum Sinrike, or however it is spelled in English.

No, really, you're not using it correctly.

Sect:
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

Scientology could be called a "sect," but so could every single branch of Christianity.

Your later remark is irrelevant - yes, you have to accept faith in God, but in religion you know in what kind of God you believe. Sects do not offer you that boon - classic example are the Ismailites, or the Assassins, as they are better known in the West. They effectively worshipped Satan, while all the underling thought that they worship Allah.
Again, really, I have to invoke the Montoya Principle: that word does not mean what you think it means.

To UpwardThrust & Bottle:
Man, are you two related or what?
Almost identical posts!

Maybe you have the same Thetan controlling both your thoughts.

To UpwardThrust & Bottle:
Man, are you two related or what?
Almost identical posts!

Maybe you have the same Thetan controlling both your thoughts.
Gotta admit, that is a bit creepy...

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!

I'm being dead serious here: if you think that you've read all the parts of the original Bible, you're kidding yourself.


Yeah, sure, every peasent and serf could just run right out and learn Latin. Except, you know, for how the Church wouldn't teach just any yahoo how to speak Latin, and how serfs had this whole thing of living in crushing poverty with absolutely no social or economic mobility.

Just like how the Catholic Church will allow anybody and everybody to read the various texts that are hidden in the Vatican. Oh wait, except they won't.


No, really, you're not using it correctly.

Sect:
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

Scientology could be called a "sect," but so could every single branch of Christianity.

Again, really, I have to invoke the Montoya Principle: that word does not mean what you think it means.

I seem to have heard all these arguments before … wait I MADE THEM

Lol I think I am falling in love :fluffle:

To UpwardThrust & Bottle:
Man, are you two related or what?
Almost identical posts!

Maybe you have the same Thetan controlling both your thoughts.
I know I think I am falling for her:fluffle:

2 Bottle

Nor I, nor any Cristian is interested in the "original Bible". Same can be said about the muslims in relation to Koran. The religion we belong to was defined by 4 (Orthodox) or 7 (Catholic) ocuemenical councils, where some texts were accepted, and some were not. The ones that were not accepted are not part of our religion. That's not what we are talking about. I, and you, and anybody else can read the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Fathers, and it will be the whole and entire body of knowledge of the Christian religion, its OFFICIAL dogma. There is nothing beyond it. And it is all open and accessible. In scientology you can read on the starting stage only Dianetics and crap like that. The full body of OFFICIAL dogma is not in public. Will you argue with that?

Yes, every peasant and surf could go to the monastery, become a monk and learn Latin. It was possible theoretically. My point is, it is not possible to learn sectarian (OK, cultist ;) knowledge, even theoretically.

I may be wrong on the sect, English is not my native language, sorry. Let it be cult.

I don't know about the Principle, but let me know what's wrong with the Ismailite example?

Alien overlod...Zombie Jesus... Meh.

Same shit, different book.

2 Bottle

Nor I, nor any Cristian is interested in the "original Bible". Same can be said about the muslims in relation to Koran. The religion we belong to was defined by 4 (Orthodox) or 7 (Catholic) ocuemenical councils, where some texts were accepted, and some were not. The ones that were not accepted are not part of our religion. That's not what we are talking about. I, and you, and anybody else can read the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Fathers, and it will be the whole and entire body of knowledge of the Christian religion, its OFFICIAL dogma. There is nothing beyond it. And it is all open and accessible. In scientology you can read on the starting stage only Dianetics and crap like that. The full body of OFFICIAL dogma is not in public. Will you argue with that?

Yes, every peasant and surf could go to the monastery, become a monk and learn Latin. It was possible theoretically. My point is, it is not possible to learn sectarian (OK, cultist ;) knowledge, even theoretically.

I may be wrong on the sect, English is not my native language, sorry. Let it be cult.

I don't know about the Principle, but let me know what's wrong with the Ismailite example?


Just because they say there is “Nothing beyond that” does not mean that there is not in fact something beyond the public dogma.

Catholicism has its own elect small grouping (you know things like bishops and cardinals) that full knowledge of church dogma and action is released to but like any organization they still have stuff that goes on behind closed doors.

And everyone learning Latin was NOT possible nor feasible. Being accepted took a large portion of your life to devote to it.

This was not a Sunday or after work school that you could go to, you HAD to become a member of the church to learn it and that required a life sacrifice IF they accepted you. How many families would have starved to death if their primary food earners and workers took time off to try and get into the priesthood/ministry

2 Bottle

Nor I, nor any Cristian is interested in the "original Bible".

Wow.

Um. Wow.

First of all, no. I'd venture to guess that a great many Christians would be very interested in the original Bible, given that some of them have this wacky notion that the Bible is God's Word.

Second of all, if you don't give a shit what God actually said, then that kind of puts all your Scientology-bashing in a new light. I mean, you are flat out saying that you don't care what the real Word of God says, so how do you then turn around and yell at Scientologists for not divulging the "full truth" to their members? You don't appear to care about truth at all!


Same can be said about the muslims in relation to Koran. The religion we belong to was defined by 4 (Orthodox) or 7 (Catholic) ocuemenical councils, where some texts were accepted, and some were not. The ones that were not accepted are not part of our religion.

That's a nice wrinkle.
"These bits aren't a part of our faith, and therefore nobody has to read them."
"How do you know they're not important?"
"Because I've never read them, and don't care to."
"But why don't you care?"
"Because they're not part of our faith."


That's not what we are talking about. I, and you, and anybody else can read the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Fathers, and it will be the whole and entire body of knowledge of the Christian religion, its OFFICIAL dogma. There is nothing beyond it. And it is all open and accessible.

You are confusing "official dogma" with "entire body of knowledge." The official dogma is like a White House press release: it's the official story, but it most certainly does not include all the information that the White House has access to.


In scientology you can read on the starting stage only Dianetics and crap like that. The full body of OFFICIAL dogma is not in public. Will you argue with that?

Yes, I will argue with that. Scientology is just like Christianity, in that there is official dogma that is released to the public, and there is more restricted knowledge that is available only to certain members.


Yes, every peasant and surf could go to the monastery, become a monk and learn Latin. It was possible theoretically.

No, darling, it really wasn't. I hate to break it to you, but feudal Europe was not a democratic or egalitarian society.


My point is, it is not possible to learn sectarian (OK, cultist ;) knowledge, even theoretically.

It is, arguably, much easier to learn "cult knowledge" than to learn the restricted knowledge held by the Catholic Church. If you pay Scientologists enough, they'll tell you everything you want to know. But the Catholic Church is significantly harder to buy off.


I may be wrong on the sect, English is not my native language, sorry. Let it be cult.

Groovy.


I don't know about the Principle, but let me know what's wrong with the Ismailite example?
The Montoya Principle refers to a quote from Inigo Montoya, in which he tells somebody, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." That was my only point: your use of the word "sect" was incorrect. I wasn't talking about the particular example you gave.

Ive only read a little about scientology, but everything I have heard has been crap.
Even so I want to hear more about it so I can laugh more.
Ive heard about the silent births ect.
I also find it funny that the guy (l ronsomething?)who set it up said that the way to make money is through religion and then set up a religion.
does anyone actually really belive that scientology is right?
furthermore...are any of the people on this site scientologists?
Is is any more crap than any other religion?
Well, let's see ...

* A "religion" established by a third-rate science fiction writer ( L. Ron Hubbard )

* To join, you have to pay a lot of money to a "trainer" so he/she can use an "e-meter" to free you of the influence of "Thetans," which are a race of alien beings who want to use the human race to conquer other races of aliens.

* To become "clear" of Thetan influences, you have to pay more and more as you move into the "higher levels" of the "religion."

* The "religion" uses threats, legal intimidation, and anything else they can think of to silence any and all who dare to question it.

* After years and years of becoming progressively more "knowledgable" about the religion, paying a HUGE amount of money will finally get you to "ultimate knowledge" about how people are victimized by "body Thetans," which are the ghosts of Thetans which have taken up residence in the bodies of humans.

So ... how "crap" is scientology? You tell me! :D

Not sure about scientology...I read somethnig once...and it seemed to make sense...but I was raised christian; but upon seeing the damage religion has done to this world, I see myself as (even though my parents don't like it) a non-practicing christian/borderline aetheist....

snip all the much better arguement then mine

The Montoya Principle refers to a quote from Inigo Montoya, in which he tells somebody, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." That was my only point: your use of the word "sect" was incorrect. I wasn't talking about the particular example you gave.
Now I know I love you ... or may I say "As you wish" :p

Not sure about scientology...I read somethnig once...and it seemed to make sense...but I was raised christian; but upon seeing the damage religion has done to this world, I see myself as (even though my parents don't like it) a non-practicing christian/borderline aetheist....
How the fuck does ANY of it make sense? What were YOU reading?

How the fuck does ANY of it make sense? What were YOU reading?

Seriously, I haven't a clue...but I am reeelly not sure about religions making any sense either...so, I feel that the universe is really based on scientific laws, not some "almighty being" looking after us...

Wow.

Um. Wow.

It is, arguably, much easier to learn "cult knowledge" than to learn the restricted knowledge held by the Catholic Church. If you pay Scientologists enough, they'll tell you everything you want to know. But the Catholic Church is significantly harder to buy off.



In the Western world, Latin was the lingua franca, the learned language for scientific and political affairs, for more than a thousand years, eventually being replaced by French in the 18th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

Up until about 5 years ago latin was taught to a lot of schoolboys up until the age of about 15.

The Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica (mathematical principles of natural philosophy) was published by Isaac Newton in 1687. It was of course written entirely in latin.

2 Bottle

Nor I, nor any Cristian is interested in the "original Bible". Same can be said about the muslims in relation to Koran. The religion we belong to was defined by 4 (Orthodox) or 7 (Catholic) ocuemenical councils, where some texts were accepted, and some were not. The ones that were not accepted are not part of our religion. That's not what we are talking about. I, and you, and anybody else can read the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Fathers, and it will be the whole and entire body of knowledge of the Christian religion, its OFFICIAL dogma. There is nothing beyond it. And it is all open and accessible. In scientology you can read on the starting stage only Dianetics and crap like that. The full body of OFFICIAL dogma is not in public. Will you argue with that?

Yes, every peasant and surf could go to the monastery, become a monk and learn Latin. It was possible theoretically. My point is, it is not possible to learn sectarian (OK, cultist ;) knowledge, even theoretically.

I may be wrong on the sect, English is not my native language, sorry. Let it be cult.

I don't know about the Principle, but let me know what's wrong with the Ismailite example?

that is exactly the difference between christian churches and scientology. when you take instruction in a christian denomination, you dont have to pay your life savings in order to find out what they really believe. you are told the basics upfront, they never change, and the instruction fills in the details.

with scientology you are pulled in with a stupid personality test, sold some sham psychological treatments, and only after many many years of study costing tens of thousands of dollars do you find out that its all because you have dead space aliens in your head.

sure some denominations have some "secrets" that are only given to the initiates but they dont cost you your life's savings to find out. they are "extras" given to those with an extra interest in the religion and are not essential to "salavation"

that is exactly the difference between christian churches and scientology. when you take instruction in a christian denomination, you dont have to pay your life savings in order to find out what they really believe. you are told the basics upfront, they never change, and the instruction fills in the details.

with scientology you are pulled in with a stupid personality test, sold some sham psychological treatments, and only after many many years of study costing tens of thousands of dollars do you find out that its all because you have dead space aliens in your head.

sure some denominations have some "secrets" that are only given to the initiates but they dont cost you your life's savings to find out. they are "extras" given to those with an extra interest in the religion and are not essential to "salavation"
That’s a matter of degree rather then type, and that’s with the current incarnation of the church. At various periods the catholic church did much more then take your money to be a full member, though simpler, they just killed you as a heretic if you were NOT a member.

That’s a matter of degree rather then type, and that’s with the current incarnation of the church. At various periods the catholic church did much more then take your money to be a full member, though simpler, they just killed you as a heretic if you were NOT a member.
just as there were times where you were killed for retaining your catholic faith if the local powers-that-be decided that everyone had to be protestant

the flaws of the catholic church are interesting but irrelevant to the thread and to my post. no matter what they did or didnt do, they didnt keep what they believed a secret. you knew what you were being killed for not believing.

before you convert to any other religion you can read up on it and decide if that is what you want to sign on to. (im not too too sure that the mormons are upfront about some of their more esoteric beliefs but they wont take your life savings in order to learn about them) they are happy to find out that you know something about them before you come in to learn more. there is no trick, not sleight of hand, no special treatment. you may find that in the course of learning that there are things you cant bring yourself to believe in--transubstantiation perhaps--and you decide not to convert after all. they didnt pretend beforehand that transubstantiation isnt part of the religion, you just didnt fully understand it at the beginning.

not so with scientology. they dont want you to know about xenu and the dead aliens. they dont tell you about that upfront. you have to study for years to learn about that. years that cost you as much money as they can squeeze out of you.

just as there were times where you were killed for retaining your catholic faith if the local powers-that-be decided that everyone had to be protestant

the flaws of the catholic church are interesting but irrelevant to the thread and to my post. no matter what they did or didnt do, they didnt keep what they believed a secret. you knew what you were being killed for not believing.

before you convert to any other religion you can read up on it and decide if that is what you want to sign on to. (im not too too sure that the mormons are upfront about some of their more esoteric beliefs but they wont take your life savings in order to learn about them) they are happy to find out that you know something about them before you come in to learn more. there is no trick, not sleight of hand, no special treatment. you may find that in the course of learning that there are things you cant bring yourself to believe in--transubstantiation perhaps--and you decide not to convert after all. they didnt pretend beforehand that transubstantiation isnt part of the religion, you just didnt fully understand it at the beginning.

not so with scientology. they dont want you to know about xenu and the dead aliens. they dont tell you about that upfront. you have to study for years to learn about that. years that cost you as much money as they can squeeze out of you.


Or you could just go online and find out about it … most people apparently spend time researching their new car then checking out reviews of their new religion… its kind of sad really

I have two stories about these nutjobs. One I witnessed myself and the other was told to me by my neighbor (an ex-Scientologist).

The first story... I was dating a girl in college and I went home with her for a long weekend. We hung out with her parents, went to see a movie, and just kind of hung out. Now, this was a small farming community, but between the farms were some nice housing developments with some expensive homes for the wealthy people who wanted to be further from the city. This is where her parents lived. We were trying to figure out what to do when a woman knocked on the door. She handed us a flyer and asked us to join her group for a brief thirty minute lecture. We obviously weren't too interested, but then she told us it was at a hotel next to a video arcade plaza (arcade games, go karts, etc.) and across the street from a very nice restaurant. If we'd come and listen to their schpiel, they'd give us a voucher for $50 to either one. We figured we'd listen to whatever they were peddling, get our $50, play some games, and get something to eat. So, we went and signed in separately (so I could get the $50 for the arcade and she could get the $50 for dinner). So, we sat down and this very well dressed guy comes out and just goes off like a motivational speaker. He spends the next hour and 20 minutes (not 30 minutes like we were told) telling us how we can improve ourselves, how there are people who care about us, how much of what we learn may be false. Basically, he was sitting up there trying to plant a huge seed of doubt in everyone. He talked about his past and kept saying thing like, "Like all of you, I was miserable with my life!" Well, I wasn't miserable; I was just a poor college student looking for $100 in freebies. Anyway, there's nothing really spectacular to tell you about the actual lecture, but they played it off like it was some support group that would help you empower yourself and help you take charge of your life. There was nothing about Hubbard, Dianetics, Scientology, Thetans, etc. The only thing relating to scientology was the little pamphlets they gave you in the little side rooms later. At the end, everyone was taken into a small room to be given their "free gifts." That turned into a freaking inquisition. They asked you everything! Name, address, age, religion, your occupation, your company, my school, what was my major, my income, etc. I lied about everything after "Name." Then they asked me to sign up for a trip. This is 10 years ago, so I don't rmember where, but it wasn't far. They said everything would be covered except airfare. I told them I'd drive. They told me I'd have to fly because by purchasing the airfare tickets, I was committing to attend. Of course, the airfare was like $1000 when it would have been less than $150 if I got the tickets on my own. They wanted payment immediately or they could set me up on a payment plan if I let them check my credit right there. WTF? Of course, I'd have to pay it off over the next 3 months before I would recevie my tickets. A three month payment plan that requires a credit check when I'm not getting the "item" until later? That's not credit... That's layaway! Anyway, I told them to go pound sand and give me my gift certificate voucher thing. They spent the next 10 minutes telling me how much of a loser I am, how worthless i am, how miserable I am, and how they could help. I still told them to get bent and the guy gave me a video arcade voucher and handed me a stack of pamphlets (about 5 of each - maybe 30 in all) and asked me to read over them and pass them out to friends. They were all pamphlets like the lecture. Apparently, they don't throw the crazy stuff at you until later on. So, I leave and I'm waiting for my girlfriend. She comes out rolling her eyes. Fortunately, she got two of the vouchers (one for each). Unfortunately, when we looked at our vouchers and they were scams. The one for the arcade is for a free $50 in "points" when you purchase $50 in points. You used a thing like a credit card to swipe and you charged it up with points to play games, go on rides, pay for mini-golf, etc. The dinner voucher was for a $50 discount on any bill totalling over $100. So, we went to play video games and my girlfriend shook her butt a little, wagged her boobs, and got one of the pimply faced geek workers to charge our cards with the two vouchers for free. So, I had a fun night with my girlfriend on the Scientologists. I later found out how the vouchers work. For every voucher that's claimed, the arcade bills the Scientologists half price. So, I cost the Sceintologists $50 that night.

The second story is from my neighbor and how he got out of Scientology and what they did to him. His parents became Scientologists when he was about 8, so he grew up believing all their crap. In college, he started to move away from "the Church" and he said that he stopped making his monthly payments. He said that if you can't afford to pay for your audits at once, you can make payments. Once you've made all your payments for the next audit, you can do it. So, he just stopped paying them. He said two people from the "church" showed up at his dorm room asking if he was alright. He said they played it off like they were worried about him, but in the end, they asked for the payment. He told them he was broke. They told him they'd ask his parents for him. He told them he didn't want to bother his parents. They gave him some mumbo jumbo about needing his audit because they could see his "distemper." After they left, he told his parents not to pay for him, but they did anyway. So, he continued on. After college, he got a job with a bank doing financial planning. He said he was asked by the church to create "profiles" for clients worth over $500,000. He refused. Within a month of denying them, he was fired because the bank received multiple complaints about him. He got another job with American Express Financial Planning Services. The "Church" asked him to do the profiles again. In response, he wrote a letter asking to be removed as a member of the "church." About a year earlier, he got engaged and started pre-cana classes to become a Catholic. His wife was Catholic and he decided to become one too. He found it very "loving" and "interesting" so he really got involved with the Catholic church. He said that he only went to confession once and would never go again. He said it was like a "watered down audit." I asked what he meant and he said that audits were basically sessions where you'd unload all of your guilt in order to feel better. However, at the audits, you were sometimes video recorded or tape recorded, and no matter what, everything you "confessed" was always written down. Anyway, after becoming a Catholic, he hoped the Scientologists would just go away if he ignored them. After writing his letter of resignation to the Scientologists, two of them showed up at his house while he was at work. He claims that they tried to convert his soon-to-be wife and when she told them to leave, they sat on the front curb waiting for my neighbor to get home. When he finally got home, he said they threatened him. They said they'd prove that he needed them by showing him what his life would have been had he not been part of the "church." Basically, he understood that this meant that they'd use his audits against him. He told them to get lost. So, they tried to ruin him. At work, he was called into his boss's office and his boss said they'd been recieving complaints. The boss also said that it had been brought to their attention that he'd been arrested as a teenager for having a part in a financial scam. (He and a few friends made up mailers to hundreds of people asking for donations to a fake chairty they made up. Then they sent them out using their high school's metered mail system. People mailed the checks to a box at "Mail Boxes Etc." - I don't think those exist anymore, but it's like an old version of "The UPS Store." Anyway, someone got suspicious and they all got busted.) Next, a letter was sent to his local church explaining that he was part of a cult and was only at the church to recruit others into his Satanic Cult. Of course, that failed since the priest was the uncle of his soon-to-be-wife. They even took it a step further and brainwashed his parents into believing that their son was suicidal, criminal, evil, etc. At first they tried to help, but he only tried to tell them the truth. They were so into Scientology that they wouldn't listen to him and they stopped talking to him. All of his friends who'd he'd met through Scientology turned against him and treated him like a leper. Actually, at first, they all plagued him with phone calls and visits to try to "bring him back," but they were evenutally directed to try to "make him realize what his life would be like without Scientology." He said that was one of the phrases the used when someone was leaving the church. It's basically a nice way of saying, "Treat them like crap." And it was explained to him, while he was a Scientologist, that they air your dirty laundry to help you... yes, to HELP YOU see what your life would have been like if you had to live with all the guilt and all the consequences of the things you confessed to in your audits. Anyway, he's now in his early 30's and his life is back in order. He's moved since that happened and is now my neighbor. He says the Scientologists still keep tabs on him though because he still gets mailings from them and invitations to their "Resort." Apparently, their resort is some hotel in Florida or California that's been converted into a brainwashing facility. He said he also gets calls once a year asking him to come back and they'll wipe the slate clean. He said the call usually comes on his birthday, Father's Day, Mother's Day, or Christmas. He said they also have specific wording to make it sound like a threat or to let him know that they know things. Like on Father's Day, they'll call and say, "I know you're probably spending time with your son Gunther who's 2 years old, but we wanted to call to wish you a happy Father's Day..." He figures they're working off information his parents gave them long ago. His father passed away last year and his mother left the "church" fo Scientology when 4 members showed up to ask about anything they were entitled to. They showed up 2 days after the funeral to see if the old man left anything to them in his Will. Surprisingly, he didn't include the Scientologists in his will. One of the Scientologists who showed up was a lawyer who tried to get the old lady to let him write up a codicil for her Will. (A codicil is an update to a Will... A Will can't be terminated, it can only be updated.) Anyway, it was no surprise that he brought enough people to be witnesses to her signing the Will. She was FINALLY smart enough to realize what was going on and she told them to come back in a few weeks because she needed time to grieve, get her finances in order, and blah blah blah. By the time they came back in 2 months, she had moved here and now lives 3 blocks from her son. Nothing really happend to her when she left the "church," but maybe they just haven't found her yet since she left without notice. All in all, they moved to Illinois from their homes in Florida just to get away from these looney Scientologists. And apprently there aren't many Scientologists around here because no one's showed up at his home, he just gets phone calls and mailers.

Or you could just go online and find out about it … most people apparently spend time researching their new car then checking out reviews of their new religion… its kind of sad really
which is why scientology has so few new members these days. its too easy to find out about them.

before the net, you might meet one or get a brochure, wander in, get the personality test, and fall into the trap. now you find out everything you need to know in 5 minutes by putting "scientology" into google.

or perhaps you want too much comedy central...

its pretty hard to find enough vacant needy people with money to keep the ranks filled.

Well, let's see ...

* A "religion" established by a third-rate science fiction writer ( L. Ron Hubbard )

* To join, you have to pay a lot of money to a "trainer" so he/she can use an "e-meter" to free you of the influence of "Thetans," which are a race of alien beings who want to use the human race to conquer other races of aliens.

* To become "clear" of Thetan influences, you have to pay more and more as you move into the "higher levels" of the "religion."

* The "religion" uses threats, legal intimidation, and anything else they can think of to silence any and all who dare to question it.

* After years and years of becoming progressively more "knowledgable" about the religion, paying a HUGE amount of money will finally get you to "ultimate knowledge" about how people are victimized by "body Thetans," which are the ghosts of Thetans which have taken up residence in the bodies of humans.

So ... how "crap" is scientology? You tell me! :D

pritty crap it seems

After that long story, scientology doesnt seem so funny anymore, especially if you try and leave-scary,very scary.

Ive only read a little about scientology, but everything I have heard has been crap.
Even so I want to hear more about it so I can laugh more.
Ive heard about the silent births ect.
I also find it funny that the guy (l ronsomething?)who set it up said that the way to make money is through religion and then set up a religion.
does anyone actually really belive that scientology is right?
furthermore...are any of the people on this site scientologists?
Is is any more crap than any other religion?


sorry if this is a lazy answer, but c'mon, it's summer for some of us and the subject was done before: See This Thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458615)
I've said most of what I want to say there - links and all - so there's no point in trying to repeat it all.

actually, a good few people posted solid information there, and some non-info posts are inevitable, right?

anyway, it's time for me to get back to perfecting my tan... :cool:

We haven't even gone into their crackpot theories on medicine. They have a thing called an e-meter. It doesn't measure anything, it puts a small electrical current across your body. While the current is being sent through your body they "audit" you. This is the repeating of neuro linguistic programming style suggestions. There hasn't been any research done that I know of on the effects of electrical stimulation while in a suggestible state but... look at fucking Tom Cruise for Christs sakes.

This is essentially Scientology in a Nutshell (http://spscientology.ytmnd.com/).
Check out some of the other Scientology YTMNDs. Quite amusing :D

Scientology is just too damn weird. Why didn't they include a virgin birth, or people rising from the dead, or a bunch of water-walking Jews? Give us SOMETHING that makes sense!

Scientology beliefs leave virgin births and water walking standing at the gate.

People or at least space entities rising from the dead it has in spades!

Scientology beliefs leave virgin births and water walking standing at the gate.

People or at least space entities rising from the dead it has in spades!
Nope...the thetans are SPIRITS, but they aren't zombies.

Now, if they were zombies, then maybe Scientology would have a little bit of credibility with me. Alien zombies would be pretty sweet.

A religion is a system of practices and beliefs, often enveloped into a culture that help provide a sense of belonging for a community of people, while giving them a common spiritual ground. It gives them hope and it is for everyone, regardless of income.

A cult extorts people and exploits their beliefs, rather than nuturing. It takes advantage of those who don't know better and are only seeking answers that they feel that haven't been able to find.

Christianity, Catholicism, Juadiam, Islam, Hinduism and all other similar belief systems fit the first description. Why? Because it helps people, even if it is warped in some way or dogged by controversy.

Scientology fits into the latter because of its inability to connect genuinely with people and its structure, which is purely for profit.

A religion is a system of practices and beliefs, often enveloped into a culture that help provide a sense of belonging for a community of people, while giving them a common spiritual ground. It gives them hope and it is for everyone, regardless of income.

A cult extorts people and exploits their beliefs, rather than nuturing. It takes advantage of those who don't know better and are only seeking answers that they feel that haven't been able to find.

Christianity, Catholicism, Juadiam, Islam, Hinduism and all other similar belief systems fit the first description. Why? Because it helps people, even if it is warped in some way or dogged by controversy.

Scientology fits into the latter because of its inability to connect genuinely with people and its structure, which is purely for profit.

I'd say there are plenty of people who have been exploited by Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism. I know people who've lost their life savings, their marriage, and even their children due to the religious organizations they belonged to.

I also happen to know a person who's been a Scientologist for upwards of 15 years, and she doesn't feel exploited in the least. She hasn't been stripped of her life savings, nor has she been forced to give up her life's dreams. She feels fulfilled and happy. Who are you to say that she's wrong, but a Christian is right?

I think it's foolish to think that "real" religions never exploit people, or that Scientology always does.

Nope...the thetans are SPIRITS, but they aren't zombies.

Now, if they were zombies, then maybe Scientology would have a little bit of credibility with me. Alien zombies would be pretty sweet.

Yes but if youve enough Thetan clusters in you, you are the zombie raising them from the dead.

Ive only read a little about scientology, but everything I have heard has been crap.
Even so I want to hear more about it so I can laugh more.
Ive heard about the silent births ect.
I also find it funny that the guy (l ronsomething?)who set it up said that the way to make money is through religion and then set up a religion.
does anyone actually really belive that scientology is right?
furthermore...are any of the people on this site scientologists?
Is is any more crap than any other religion?

Scientology is not a religion and it is not funny. Scientology is a fascist organization that must be eradicated.

Scientology is not a religion and it is not funny. Scientology is a fascist organization that must be eradicated.

Scientology is hilarious. You must be thinking of the Rosicruceans or The Church of Religious Science.

Scientology is hilarious. You must be thinking of the Rosicruceans or The Church of Religious Science.

Scientology is in no way hilarious.

Scientology is in no way hilarious.

Unless it's on southpark.

2 Bottle


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeglindia
2 Bottle

Nor I, nor any Cristian is interested in the "original Bible".
Wow.

Um. Wow.

First of all, no. I'd venture to guess that a great many Christians would be very interested in the original Bible, given that some of them have this wacky notion that the Bible is God's Word.

If you'd read carefully, you've noted the "-" around original. Now, if you take the pains and go to magic google, enter the Symbol of Faith and read carefully, you will find after the Trinity and Christ staff the chapter about the Church. Being Catholic, Orthodox or whatever means not only the belief in Jesus, resurrection etc, but also being the member of the Church. Which happens to have chosen the existing four testaments and teaching from around 500 apocryphs. So, surprise, we HAVE our original Bible, which is God's word. That's why we do not have interest in the "original" Bibles, which happent to be apocryphs.

Second of all, if you don't give a shit what God actually said, then that kind of puts all your Scientology-bashing in a new light. I mean, you are flat out saying that you don't care what the real Word of God says, so how do you then turn around and yell at Scientologists for not divulging the "full truth" to their members? You don't appear to care about truth at all!

Well, read above. I just happen to know what the real Word of God says, because if I didn't, I wouldn't be a Crhistian. Let's stick with logic, OK, you seem to be carried away a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeglindia
Same can be said about the muslims in relation to Koran. The religion we belong to was defined by 4 (Orthodox) or 7 (Catholic) ocuemenical councils, where some texts were accepted, and some were not. The ones that were not accepted are not part of our religion.
That's a nice wrinkle.
"These bits aren't a part of our faith, and therefore nobody has to read them."
"How do you know they're not important?"
"Because I've never read them, and don't care to."
"But why don't you care?"
"Because they're not part of our faith."

Oh boy. Why do you guys consider people, who chose the official 4 testaments, stupid? Yes, you can read all the bloody 500 apocryphs of the testament. And study them. And spend your lifetime on it. They are not secret, they just happen not to be published in the entirety, because nobody really wants to know. Would you like to read the memoirs of, say, British amassador to Zimbabwe during the Vietnam war? No? Well, most of the "secret" apocryphs carry the same value, that's why nobody gives a damn about publishing them. Theologists were arguing about the now hyped up Testament of Judas since the 1920s, it was no secret. Now it got published. So what?

Anyway, returning to the beginning. You could study it, and I give 99 of 100, you would arrive at the same basic set of 4 testament, because guess what? - the fathers of the Church were very smart and educated people, much smarter and more educated then any of us here, and they had no conspiracy going on for 1000 years or any kind of that Dan Brown crap. They just chose, in deep reverence for the God and his word, the best of what was available. If you go a little further then the Da Vinci code and Wikipedia, you will see theat quite clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeglindia
That's not what we are talking about. I, and you, and anybody else can read the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Fathers, and it will be the whole and entire body of knowledge of the Christian religion, its OFFICIAL dogma. There is nothing beyond it. And it is all open and accessible.
You are confusing "official dogma" with "entire body of knowledge." The official dogma is like a White House press release: it's the official story, but it most certainly does not include all the information that the White House has access to.

You are just plain wrong. If you are to lazy to study the actual rituals employed by the Church, it is your problem, and not Churches. All the books needed are available, and often on the net. Copyright wasn't invented back then. These are exactly the same books that are teached to the priests in seminaries. The amount of material is of course vast, but it is available. Scientological just isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeglindia
In scientology you can read on the starting stage only Dianetics and crap like that. The full body of OFFICIAL dogma is not in public. Will you argue with that?
Yes, I will argue with that. Scientology is just like Christianity, in that there is official dogma that is released to the public, and there is more restricted knowledge that is available only to certain members.

Wrong again. Please name some piece of Christian dogmatic knowledge you know about, or have heard about being hidden from the flock? I can name a lot of such pieces from Scientology. The staff people are talking about here (thetans etc) is just rumours, the Scientologists themselves are silent about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeglindia
Yes, every peasant and surf could go to the monastery, become a monk and learn Latin. It was possible theoretically.
No, darling, it really wasn't. I hate to break it to you, but feudal Europe was not a democratic or egalitarian society.

No kidding. But you are off topic. What could stop a serf from learning Latin, if he really wanted to, beside the conditions in society which have nothing to do with Latin in particular, but with the state in education in general?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeglindia
My point is, it is not possible to learn sectarian (OK, cultist knowledge, even theoretically.
It is, arguably, much easier to learn "cult knowledge" than to learn the restricted knowledge held by the Catholic Church. If you pay Scientologists enough, they'll tell you everything you want to know. But the Catholic Church is significantly harder to buy off.

Again, which restricted knowledge of the Catholic Church? Please name one topic of dogma, which is restricted from common knowledge.

.... What they (and other religions, like the exclusive Brethern) do if someone leaves is ostracize them, which means viewing them as never having existed. Not even having died, just never been....

i know I said I wasn't going to say more but then I read DH's post, and figured this should be in the mix.

$cientology has a similar thing. they call it "disconnection". but it has a nasty twist: if you're a $cieno, and a relative of yours publicly criticizes or opposes $camintology, or otherwise qualifies as a "suppressive person", you'll be told to "handle or disconnect" from them. iow, either you have to get them to lay off criticizing the $cienoland, or you have to write them a letter of disconnect[ion] and ostracize them. great, huh?

---------

and for people who want the reference and the gory 1st-hand details:
disconnection and the family (http://members.chello.nl/mgormez/childabuse/disconnect.html) - see the links there too.

I pranked phone called a Scientology church one time, it was fun. I love messing with nutjobs.

Unless it's on southpark.
"Mom, Tom Cruise won't come out of the closet!"

Scientology is not a religion and it is not funny. Scientology is a fascist organization that must be eradicated.
How is it NOT a religion?

How is it NOT a religion?
The fact that its characteristics make it more of a cult than a religion.

Very, very crap. Very.

The fact that its characteristics make it more of a cult than a religion.
Are they mutually exclusive?

I don't know of any religions, aside from Scientology, that puts rattlesnakes in your mailbox when you try to quit. Or spends a lot of time blackmailing you into staying in.

I don't know of any religions, aside from Scientology, that puts rattlesnakes in your mailbox when you try to quit. Or spends a lot of time blackmailing you into staying in.

You forgot: sueing.

*thinks of a dictum*

No organisation that spends more on lawyers than on the homeless shall qualify as religious, for tax purposes.

I don't know of any religions, aside from Scientology, that puts rattlesnakes in your mailbox when you try to quit. Or spends a lot of time blackmailing you into staying in.
Oh I am sure there are a few religions that have pulled worse then that or similar to that things recently or in the near past. That makes them a bad religion (In my opinion) but that does not really disqualify them from being a religion.

You forgot: sueing.

*thinks of a dictum*

No organisation that spends more on lawyers than on the homeless shall qualify as religious, for tax purposes.
For tax purposes I agree, I don’t really care if they are a religion or not if they do not help society they should not be exempt from helping fund the society that protects them

For tax purposes I agree, I don’t really care if they are a religion or not if they do not help society they should not be exempt from helping fund the society that protects them


I got no problem 'bout that either...

As an aside: I don't see just how calling yerself religious could serve as an excuse for not being mainstream.
SelfCert is only good for mortgages.
And there it works like crap too.

Are they mutually exclusive?
Not from what I've read.

If u want to know hom much crap scientology is, just read about Xenu and his evil team of psychiatrists and income tax collectors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu, it's hilarious.

Not from what I've read.
I would happen to agree, and from what I can tell it is most defiantly a cult and a religion (the cult part being the bad part). I just don’t think we should be saying that it is not a religion when it IS, it just can further be described as also being a cult.

Kind of like saying you are religious … then monotheistic, then protestant each sub category further describes.

I would happen to agree, and from what I can tell it is most defiantly a cult and a religion (the cult part being the bad part). I just don’t think we should be saying that it is not a religion when it IS, it just can further be described as also being a cult.

Kind of like saying you are religious … then monotheistic, then protestant each sub category further describes.
One of the primary characteristics of a religion is:

Belief in a deity. There are three main philosophical views regarding the existence of a deity. Atheists believe that no deity exists. Theists believe in a deity or deities. Agnostics say that the existence of a deity cannot be proved or disproved. Most of the major religions are theistic. They teach that deities govern or greatly influence the actions of human beings as well as events in nature.

The $cientology doesn't have a diety; just some insane alien named Xenu; an evil overlord.

Characteristics of Religion (http://www.geocities.com/stonehavencircle/beliefs/basicbeliefs2.html)

One of the primary characteristics of a religion is:

Belief in a deity. There are three main philosophical views regarding the existence of a deity. Atheists believe that no deity exists. Theists believe in a deity or deities. Agnostics say that the existence of a deity cannot be proved or disproved. Most of the major religions are theistic. They teach that deities govern or greatly influence the actions of human beings as well as events in nature.

The $cientology doesn't have a diety; just some insane alien named Xenu; an evil overlord.

Characteristics of Religion (http://www.geocities.com/stonehavencircle/beliefs/basicbeliefs2.html)

But they also believe in spirits and an afterlife of sorts, and re-incarnation. I seem to remember a few religions out there that believe in re-incarnation with out a specific deity

Though one can argue that the “thetans” are a creation entity sense they built the physical reality of their existence in the The Story of Creation Implants


They fit at least 2 of the 4 definitions of a religion.

I wonder why no one haven't put a stop to them. I mean it's pretty obvious that they aren't a religion, so wouldn't that mean they can't be protected under the first admendment?

I wonder why no one haven't put a stop to them. I mean it's pretty obvious that they aren't a religion, so wouldn't that mean they can't be protected under the first admendment?
Because they've been stalling the courts for years. They have the money and the lawyers...

Because they've been stalling the courts for years. They have the money and the lawyers...

Maybe introduce the idea that they contacted L Ron Hubbard Thetens (or however it's spelled) and that he wants the members to blow themselves up in the Middle East?

I've just read the other thread linked here by The Beach Boys, including links in the posts. I have to say, IMO arguing over whether Hubbardism is a sect or a religion or a cult or all of them or none or some combination misses the point. Looking at the way Scientology acts, and considering Beach Boys' point that their mistreatment of people, their cruelty and their criminal behaviour are all part of deliberate policy and standard operating procedure, I'd say arguing over which label to give to the social cancer they represent is like arguing over whether the Titanic went down bow first or stern first.

FWIW, Scientology --- $cientology if you wish --- may seem like foolishness, but its ambitions to control governments and eventually rule the world, combined with a fundamentalism that makes Bush and Al Qaeda look moderate and combined with their willingness to do anything and spend anything to succeed, indicate that it's very dangerous foolishness.

Beach Boys, perhaps you'd reconsider your decision not to post more details about this, since you seem to have researched it some? And how about some others? The other thread feels incomplete.

I find $cientology to be quite humerous. I wonder when they'll bring out the poisoned kool-aid for their kool-aid drinkers, er, I mean "followers".

I find $cientology to be quite humerous. I wonder when they'll bring out the poisoned kool-aid for their kool-aid drinkers, er, I mean "followers".

If you can find that funny, either you haven't understood what's going on, or you take an unhealthy pleasure in the sufferings of others. What these people do seems to be extra-ordinarily damaging --- deliberately so.

Yeah, well... wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said there's a sucker born every minute?

People gotta find out for themselves just how gullible they can be. Scientology plays off their gullibility, and in really bad ways. But what can you do?

They're the authors of their own misfortune.

http://www.insolitology.com/organized/scientology.htm

Yeah, It's pretty crap. More crap than other religions because it takes all your money, kills people, and silences anyone who dares expose it.I personally blame Scientology for the killing of anon.penet.fi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anon.penet.fi).

Not that I was ever a user of the service myself (well, except by responding to someone who used the remailer for some reason or other), and other methods existed then and many more do now of protecting oneself from corrupt authorities, overlitigious employers and similar threats to personal freedoms, but the principle's the thing, and it was one of the trailblazers in the field.

Financially, Scientology is a pyramid scheme.

Psychologically, it is a cult.

It is not a religion. The people who get involved deserve pity and contempt.

Well, uh. Hubbard was pretty crazy, actually, if you look at him carefully. Certifiably insane, maybe. I think he started to believe his own crap.I wonder how many people out there have read the Mission Earth[1] series (decalogy, in fact). There was some pretty wierd... stuff... in that. But on a par with many an SF writer.


[1] Not "Battlefield Earth", though I've read that too. And they definitely made a right hash of an arguably "passably interesting" book in transfering it to screen, but (to be overly fair) there was a lot of stuff that couldn't easily survive the conversion to a screenplay.

The people who get involved deserve pity and contempt.
I'll go with contempt for 200, Alex.

*ding-ding*

It's the Daily Double!

I've just read the other thread linked here by The Beach Boys, including links in the posts. I have to say, IMO arguing over whether Hubbardism is a sect or a religion or a cult or all of them or none or some combination misses the point. Looking at the way Scientology acts, and considering Beach Boys' point that their mistreatment of people, their cruelty and their criminal behaviour are all part of deliberate policy and standard operating procedure, I'd say arguing over which label to give to the social cancer they represent is like arguing over whether the Titanic went down bow first or stern first.

FWIW, Scientology --- $cientology if you wish --- may seem like foolishness, but its ambitions to control governments and eventually rule the world, combined with a fundamentalism that makes Bush and Al Qaeda look moderate and combined with their willingness to do anything and spend anything to succeed, indicate that it's very dangerous foolishness.

Beach Boys, perhaps you'd reconsider your decision not to post more details about this, since you seem to have researched it some? And how about some others? The other thread feels incomplete.


glad you like the link to the other thread. and I agree with you completely. all this crap about what word to use about $camintology is a waste and it's off-topic. I like your Titanic analogy. in fact, I appreciate your post.

and that's part of why I don't want to go through the whole thing of posting again. I said pretty much everything I wanted to say on that other thread, so it's just going to be a lot of work to find another way to say the same things again. and I'll guess there's some kind of rule that says you can't just cut and paste your posts from one thread to another, so I won't do that anytime soon. anyway, there are plenty of other people - including you - that can write good posts about it. I'm not needed.

hint: if you study the links put up by others and by me, you can do this yourself.

I find $cientology to be quite humerous. I wonder when they'll bring out the poisoned kool-aid for their kool-aid drinkers, er, I mean "followers".


and I find the kind of people who find this stuff funny quite deficient. the reality is as funny as a heart-attack.

I really really wish people like you would take the time to learn something about this before you dismiss it. look at the damage they do to their members and the malice they show to critics, and try to understand. and then while you're waiting for the poisoned kool-aid, ask yourself what's being done to them already: the hundreds of thousands of bucks ripped off from them for the "training" and "auditing" (and security-checks), the damage to families, and all the rest.

Yeah, well... wasn't it P.T. Barnum who said there's a sucker born every minute?

People gotta find out for themselves just how gullible they can be. Scientology plays off their gullibility, and in really bad ways. But what can you do?

They're the authors of their own misfortune.

so let me guess, if you ever, ever get conned by anybody, you'll just think, "well, now I see I'm gullible and I was the author of my own misfortune." then you'll tell the detectives from the fraud squad, "no, don't prosecute him for defrauding me. I did it to myself."

and you'll never complain when you vote for somebody and then they turn out to be crooks, right?

I'll just keep breathing.

so let me guess, if you ever, ever get conned by anybody, you'll just think, "well, now I see I'm gullible and I was the author of my own misfortune." then you'll tell the detectives from the fraud squad, "no, don't prosecute him for defrauding me. I did it to myself."

and you'll never complain when you vote for somebody and then they turn out to be crooks, right?

I'll just keep breathing.
And if I don't take some significant measure of personal responsibility for being a gullible twat, how am I supposed to learn from the experience?

Wishful thinking?

I personally blame Scientology for the killing of anon.penet.fi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anon.penet.fi).

Not that I was ever a user of the service myself (well, except by responding to someone who used the remailer for some reason or other), and other methods existed then and many more do now of protecting oneself from corrupt authorities, overlitigious employers and similar threats to personal freedoms, but the principle's the thing, and it was one of the trailblazers in the field.


it's $cientology's policy to attempt to control the media. and the internet is a key target. $cienos don't want the internet to ruin their access to "raw meat" (the public that they want to recruit) by telling them the truth about $camintology. and they don't want existing members to find out things officially hidden from them by the org's censorship.

some interesting things to read:
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/bad-cos.htm
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/censored.html
http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/censorship/
http://www.watchman.org/sci/c0$p1.htm
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/Gavino/
http://europe.rights.apc.org/cases/anti-scientology.html
http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/revolt.htm

- I could go on but why bother?

see also the links from those pages.

their attacks on anon.penet.fi are just a small sample of the attacks they've carried out on the web.

for people who claim communication is the answer to all conflicts, they spend a lot of time and money trying to interfere with other people's communication.

I don't know of any religions, aside from Scientology, that puts rattlesnakes in your mailbox when you try to quit. Or spends a lot of time blackmailing you into staying in.

I hate to be pedantic, but the rattlesnake incident? - you're thinking of Synanon, not $cientology's alter ego, Narcanon.

you're right about the blackmail though.

... The people who get involved deserve pity and contempt.


did you really mean the victims deserve contempt, or did you mean "and not contempt"?

How crap is scientology?

Scientology is crappier than shit.

Scientology is crappier than shit.
And shit is pretty crappy on its own...

And shit is pretty crappy on its own...
It would seem so,I got to admit tho, when I started this thread I found scientology funny, and a bit of a joke, and even tho Its crappy and all, its also scary and violent and not at all nice or funny.The belief in themselves are funny and laughable, but not the methods.Thank for enlightening me people!
:) :) :)

It would seem so,I got to admit tho, when I started this thread I found scientology funny, and a bit of a joke, and even tho Its crappy and all, its also scary and violent and not at all nice or funny.The belief in themselves are funny and laughable, but not the methods.Thank for enlightening me people!
:) :) :)
I concede. Yes, they have stupid beliefs that are damn laughable, but their practices are extremely alarming. They are reflective of Nazi practices in a few scary ways.

I concede. Yes, they have stupid beliefs that are damn laughable, but their practices are extremely alarming. They are reflective of Nazi practices in a few scary ways.
What, like handing out personality tests?


Just kidding. Nahh, they're arses par excellence, but y'know, some lessons are best learned through experience. Sometimes you've got to step in the shit to learn how much you prefer clean shoes.

I concede. Yes, they have stupid beliefs that are damn laughable, but their practices are extremely alarming. They are reflective of Nazi practices in a few scary ways.
do they put people in gas chambers?

They put them through privation and torture. Starving and sleep deprivation. They refuse people medical treatment beyond their own mumbo jumbo which makes homeopathy look credible.

do they put people in gas chambers?
They put them in gas-like chambers... first they give a large dose of "vitamins" then put you in a sauna room for 5 hours... (this is part of the Narcon program). You've left without water and forced to stay in there.

I have two stories about these nutjobs. One I witnessed myself and the other was told to me by my neighbor (an ex-Scientologist).

The first story... I was dating a girl in college and I went home with her for a long weekend. We hung out with her parents, went to see a movie, and just kind of hung out. Now, this was a small farming community, but between the farms were some nice housing developments with some expensive homes for the wealthy people who wanted to be further from the city. This is where her parents lived. We were trying to figure out what to do when a woman knocked on the door. She handed us a flyer and asked us to join her group for a brief thirty minute lecture. We obviously weren't too interested, but then she told us it was at a hotel next to a video arcade plaza (arcade games, go karts, etc.) and across the street from a very nice restaurant. If we'd come and listen to their schpiel, they'd give us a voucher for $50 to either one. We figured we'd listen to whatever they were peddling, get our $50, play some games, and get something to eat. So, we went and signed in separately (so I could get the $50 for the arcade and she could get the $50 for dinner). So, we sat down and this very well dressed guy comes out and just goes off like a motivational speaker. He spends the next hour and 20 minutes (not 30 minutes like we were told) telling us how we can improve ourselves, how there are people who care about us, how much of what we learn may be false. Basically, he was sitting up there trying to plant a huge seed of doubt in everyone. He talked about his past and kept saying thing like, "Like all of you, I was miserable with my life!" Well, I wasn't miserable; I was just a poor college student looking for $100 in freebies. Anyway, there's nothing really spectacular to tell you about the actual lecture, but they played it off like it was some support group that would help you empower yourself and help you take charge of your life. There was nothing about Hubbard, Dianetics, Scientology, Thetans, etc. The only thing relating to scientology was the little pamphlets they gave you in the little side rooms later. At the end, everyone was taken into a small room to be given their "free gifts." That turned into a freaking inquisition. They asked you everything! Name, address, age, religion, your occupation, your company, my school, what was my major, my income, etc. I lied about everything after "Name." Then they asked me to sign up for a trip. This is 10 years ago, so I don't rmember where, but it wasn't far. They said everything would be covered except airfare. I told them I'd drive. They told me I'd have to fly because by purchasing the airfare tickets, I was committing to attend. Of course, the airfare was like $1000 when it would have been less than $150 if I got the tickets on my own. They wanted payment immediately or they could set me up on a payment plan if I let them check my credit right there. WTF? Of course, I'd have to pay it off over the next 3 months before I would recevie my tickets. A three month payment plan that requires a credit check when I'm not getting the "item" until later? That's not credit... That's layaway! Anyway, I told them to go pound sand and give me my gift certificate voucher thing. They spent the next 10 minutes telling me how much of a loser I am, how worthless i am, how miserable I am, and how they could help. I still told them to get bent and the guy gave me a video arcade voucher and handed me a stack of pamphlets (about 5 of each - maybe 30 in all) and asked me to read over them and pass them out to friends. They were all pamphlets like the lecture. Apparently, they don't throw the crazy stuff at you until later on. So, I leave and I'm waiting for my girlfriend. She comes out rolling her eyes. Fortunately, she got two of the vouchers (one for each). Unfortunately, when we looked at our vouchers and they were scams. The one for the arcade is for a free $50 in "points" when you purchase $50 in points. You used a thing like a credit card to swipe and you charged it up with points to play games, go on rides, pay for mini-golf, etc. The dinner voucher was for a $50 discount on any bill totalling over $100. So, we went to play video games and my girlfriend shook her butt a little, wagged her boobs, and got one of the pimply faced geek workers to charge our cards with the two vouchers for free. So, I had a fun night with my girlfriend on the Scientologists. I later found out how the vouchers work. For every voucher that's claimed, the arcade bills the Scientologists half price. So, I cost the Sceintologists $50 that night.

The second story is from my neighbor and how he got out of Scientology and what they did to him. His parents became Scientologists when he was about 8, so he grew up believing all their crap. In college, he started to move away from "the Church" and he said that he stopped making his monthly payments. He said that if you can't afford to pay for your audits at once, you can make payments. Once you've made all your payments for the next audit, you can do it. So, he just stopped paying them. He said two people from the "church" showed up at his dorm room asking if he was alright. He said they played it off like they were worried about him, but in the end, they asked for the payment. He told them he was broke. They told him they'd ask his parents for him. He told them he didn't want to bother his parents. They gave him some mumbo jumbo about needing his audit because they could see his "distemper." After they left, he told his parents not to pay for him, but they did anyway. So, he continued on. After college, he got a job with a bank doing financial planning. He said he was asked by the church to create "profiles" for clients worth over $500,000. He refused. Within a month of denying them, he was fired because the bank received multiple complaints about him. He got another job with American Express Financial Planning Services. The "Church" asked him to do the profiles again. In response, he wrote a letter asking to be removed as a member of the "church." About a year earlier, he got engaged and started pre-cana classes to become a Catholic. His wife was Catholic and he decided to become one too. He found it very "loving" and "interesting" so he really got involved with the Catholic church. He said that he only went to confession once and would never go again. He said it was like a "watered down audit." I asked what he meant and he said that audits were basically sessions where you'd unload all of your guilt in order to feel better. However, at the audits, you were sometimes video recorded or tape recorded, and no matter what, everything you "confessed" was always written down. Anyway, after becoming a Catholic, he hoped the Scientologists would just go away if he ignored them. After writing his letter of resignation to the Scientologists, two of them showed up at his house while he was at work. He claims that they tried to convert his soon-to-be wife and when she told them to leave, they sat on the front curb waiting for my neighbor to get home. When he finally got home, he said they threatened him. They said they'd prove that he needed them by showing him what his life would have been had he not been part of the "church." Basically, he understood that this meant that they'd use his audits against him. He told them to get lost. So, they tried to ruin him. At work, he was called into his boss's office and his boss said they'd been recieving complaints. The boss also said that it had been brought to their attention that he'd been arrested as a teenager for having a part in a financial scam. (He and a few friends made up mailers to hundreds of people asking for donations to a fake chairty they made up. Then they sent them out using their high school's metered mail system. People mailed the checks to a box at "Mail Boxes Etc." - I don't think those exist anymore, but it's like an old version of "The UPS Store." Anyway, someone got suspicious and they all got busted.) Next, a letter was sent to his local church explaining that he was part of a cult and was only at the church to recruit others into his Satanic Cult. Of course, that failed since the priest was the uncle of his soon-to-be-wife. They even took it a step further and brainwashed his parents into believing that their son was suicidal, criminal, evil, etc. At first they tried to help, but he only tried to tell them the truth. They were so into Scientology that they wouldn't listen to him and they stopped talking to him. All of his friends who'd he'd met through Scientology turned against him and treated him like a leper. Actually, at first, they all plagued him with phone calls and visits to try to "bring him back," but they were evenutally directed to try to "make him realize what his life would be like without Scientology." He said that was one of the phrases the used when someone was leaving the church. It's basically a nice way of saying, "Treat them like crap." And it was explained to him, while he was a Scientologist, that they air your dirty laundry to help you... yes, to HELP YOU see what your life would have been like if you had to live with all the guilt and all the consequences of the things you confessed to in your audits. Anyway, he's now in his early 30's and his life is back in order. He's moved since that happened and is now my neighbor. He says the Scientologists still keep tabs on him though because he still gets mailings from them and invitations to their "Resort." Apparently, their resort is some hotel in Florida or California that's been converted into a brainwashing facility. He said he also gets calls once a year asking him to come back and they'll wipe the slate clean. He said the call usually comes on his birthday, Father's Day, Mother's Day, or Christmas. He said they also have specific wording to make it sound like a threat or to let him know that they know things. Like on Father's Day, they'll call and say, "I know you're probably spending time with your son Gunther who's 2 years old, but we wanted to call to wish you a happy Father's Day..." He figures they're working off information his parents gave them long ago. His father passed away last year and his mother left the "church" fo Scientology when 4 members showed up to ask about anything they were entitled to. They showed up 2 days after the funeral to see if the old man left anything to them in his Will. Surprisingly, he didn't include the Scientologists in his will. One of the Scientologists who showed up was a lawyer who tried to get the old lady to let him write up a codicil for her Will. (A codicil is an update to a Will... A Will can't be terminated, it can only be updated.) Anyway, it was no surprise that he brought enough people to be witnesses to her signing the Will. She was FINALLY smart enough to realize what was going on and she told them to come back in a few weeks because she needed time to grieve, get her finances in order, and blah blah blah. By the time they came back in 2 months, she had moved here and now lives 3 blocks from her son. Nothing really happend to her when she left the "church," but maybe they just haven't found her yet since she left without notice. All in all, they moved to Illinois from their homes in Florida just to get away from these looney Scientologists. And apprently there aren't many Scientologists around here because no one's showed up at his home, he just gets phone calls and mailers.


Wow, I only just read this. Scary shit. :eek:

And I shamelessly quoted it in whole so that maybe some more people will read it:p, despite it being such a long piece of uninterrupted text (some paragraphs with breaks in between would have been great for better readability). Btw, it's post #75 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11191517&postcount=75), for folks who don't like the italics.

It's great to have some "first-hand" accounts on here from someone who actually encountered Scientology (personally or through your neighbor).

Both stories are *really* scary.

I was disgusted how, in that weird motivation speaker thing, they would practically start telling you there had to be something wrong with you, if you know it or not.
And I wouldn't really have thought they'd be quite that aggressive right from that start, what with the collecting of personal data, and $1000 plane tickets, and credit checks and whatnot.
Imagine if someone actually is in a bad mental shape - no way they'll be able to stand up to them. F*uckers.


And of course your neighbor's story is just devastating.
What scared me most is the fact that they actually managed to get him fired from his job(s) and that Father's Day call you mentioned.
Honestly, that whole thing reads like a bad movie. I cannot believe they keep getting away with this shit.

I've repeatedly posted in Scientology threads on here wondering why not even the really big media, like for example the New York Times, really go after Scientology. And while people have pointed out to me that not only would they likely be sued into oblivion but also be harrassed and threatened, it actually only now hit home that, yeah, this is not just about "The New York Times", but also about the individual journalists assigned to the case. And damn, if I had family, I would think twice about taking that job.

Someone just might end up dead.

They put them in gas-like chambers... first they give a large dose of "vitamins" then put you in a sauna room for 5 hours... (this is part of the Narcon program). You've left without water and forced to stay in there.
Thats pritty crap I must admit.

Wow, I only just read this. Scary shit. :eek:

And I shamelessly quoted it in whole so that maybe some more people will read it:p, despite it being such a long piece of uninterrupted text (some paragraphs with breaks in between would have been great for better readability). Btw, it's post #75 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11191517&postcount=75), for folks who don't like the italics.

It's great to have some "first-hand" accounts on here from someone who actually encountered Scientology (personally or through your neighbor).

Both stories are *really* scary.

I was disgusted how, in that weird motivation speaker thing, they would practically start telling you there had to be something wrong with you, if you know it or not.
And I wouldn't really have thought they'd be quite that aggressive right from that start, what with the collecting of personal data, and $1000 plane tickets, and credit checks and whatnot.
Imagine if someone actually is in a bad mental shape - no way they'll be able to stand up to them. F*uckers.


And of course your neighbor's story is just devastating.
What scared me most is the fact that they actually managed to get him fired from his job(s) and that Father's Day call you mentioned.
Honestly, that whole thing reads like a bad movie. I cannot believe they keep getting away with this shit.

I've repeatedly posted on this forum wondering why not even the really big media, like for example the New York Times, really go after Scientology. And while people have pointed out to me that not only would they likely be sued into oblivion but also be harrassed and threatened, it actually only now hit home that, yeah, this is not just about "The New York Times", but also about the individual journalists assigned to the case. And damn, if I had family, I would think twice about taking that job.

Someone might well end up dead.
Im sure someone already has.If your in a fragile state, or your the kind of person who cant say no then you could get yourself into so bad shit, and these people would not have a problem with exploiting you.

Thats pritty crap I must admit.
Check Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net) for more. It's got all sorts of stories that talk about this kind of thing and worse. In fact, where young children would normally be coddled if they hurt themselves by accident, $cientology explicitly states that coddling is counterproductive and insists on a "feel-touch" method, which has the parent touching the hurt spot and then taking the hurt spot and pressing it against the source that caused the hurt to make the pain return to the source...

And other weird medical shit that makes Chiropractors look straight...