NationStates Jolt Archive

Hehe...English doesn't seem to have a word that is a 1:1 translation of "Lokalpatriotismus". Go figure.

"Regionalism" might come close. But whatever.

I'm talking about the willingness of people to defend their locality against criticism. Basically, you feel patriotic about your town, or perhaps your state (this is sorta topical, now that Catalunia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm) might be making steps to much more autonomy from Spain).

In Germany this is quite well developed (http://www.plattmaster.de/), either because of the federalist nature of the country and its history, or because it can be used as an alternative to nationalism.

Which brings me to my real question: Is there any difference between the two? Is one okay, and the other isn't? Why?

Hehe...English doesn't seem to have a word that is a 1:1 translation of "Lokalpatriotismus". Go figure.

"Regionalism" might come close. But whatever.

I'm talking about the willingness of people to defend their locality against criticism. Basically, you feel patriotic about your town, or perhaps your state (this is sorta topical, now that Catalunia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm) might be making steps to much more autonomy from Spain).

In Germany this is quite well developed (http://www.plattmaster.de/), either because of the federalist nature of the country and its history, or because it can be used as an alternative to nationalism.

Which brings me to my real question: Is there any difference between the two? Is one okay, and the other isn't? Why?


I don't really know about the rest of the world, but in Germany, Lokalpatriotism does exist and thrive, nationalism is on the brink of extinction.
That is to say, you will never have any difficulties finding Germans who are ready and willing to give out about the country on the whole, about it's politics, economy, history, stuck-up society, you name it. But say one word against their home town/village and you'll be surprised how quickly and totally their attitude can change.

It exists strongly over here. There are traditional rivalries between the states. Whenever I visit South Australia, i'm a "bloody Victorian", despite being a "bloody crow eater" to most Victorians when they find out I was born in South Australia.

Yeah, it's just as silly as Nationalism, though a bit more harmless.

Which brings me to my real question: Is there any difference between the two? Is one okay, and the other isn't? Why?
i suppose supporting or being patriotic/nationalistic about a regional body with little governmental - or particularly military - power is different from straight nationalism. the latter can be used by politicians to further their own cause, be aggressors towards other nations and exclude certain types from entering the nation (very much a modern issue - look at the BNP and their rising support as a national party, using nationalistic ideals as their selling point)
a regional body - a province, county or city - does not have that power, generally speaking. in my mind, therefore, it is free of the problems that are associated with nationalism. as kanabia but it; "harmless"

but, as with all things, its subjective and depends how far you take it...

Hehe...English doesn't seem to have a word that is a 1:1 translation of "Lokalpatriotismus". Go figure.

"Regionalism" might come close. But whatever.

I'm talking about the willingness of people to defend their locality against criticism. Basically, you feel patriotic about your town, or perhaps your state (this is sorta topical, now that Catalunia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5091572.stm) might be making steps to much more autonomy from Spain).

In Germany this is quite well developed (http://www.plattmaster.de/), either because of the federalist nature of the country and its history, or because it can be used as an alternative to nationalism.

Which brings me to my real question: Is there any difference between the two? Is one okay, and the other isn't? Why?
Seems good enough, i figured "Lokalpatriotismus" was "Regionalism" so bravo.
Yes in New Zealand the Major centres bash th others while promoting themselves especially when it comes to sport.

Well, there's certainly a good deal of state pride here in the US, as is often on display on these boards. There are a number of us, such as myself, who give more loyalty to their state than the Fed, but I'm certain we're not the majority.

Since I've never lived in a proper "city" I have a very hard time understanding being proud of a city, but I know a lot of Detroiters who are extremely proud of Detroit, and the people in the Detroit suburbs are rather vehement in reminding everyone that they're not part of Detroit (although I still say they are).

Translating "Lokalpatriotismus" with "parochialism" is sort of off the mark, but not always entirely. It depends how far down the local patriotism goes. It can be a subregion, a small district, a town, a few villages or just a specific neighbourhood in a town.

This one's for the Germans only:

Ansonzen binnichen Lokalpatriot vonne Ruah. Lassinix drauf komm. Kannze sahng watte willz. Da binnich geboahn, da steh ich voll hinta, odda mittem Dichta Stefan George seine Woate:

"Heimat deucht mir erst, wo Kuehl- und Foerdertuerme ragen."

Hach...da is heute leida kaum no' watt von uebba. Selpz dat schoene Ruahdeutsch is die Juhngt schonn am Valearn dran. Die gehn lieba auffe Ruhr-Unni statt auffem Puett. Die Welt bleipt nich stehn. Kannze ma kucken.

LOL. This Plattdüütsch on the site linked in OP is frighteningly close to the Dutch dialect I grew up with. Dutch people living near the German border usually are not as good at German as you'd expect, so speaking a common dialect can actually help you transcend national borders. Still, regionalism is potentially as dangerous as nationalism. Take Basque ETA for example.

Ansonzen binnichen Lokalpatriot vonne Ruah. Lassinix drauf komm. Kannze sahng watte willz. Da binnich geboahn, da steh ich voll hinta, odda mittem Dichta Stefan George seine Woate:

"Heimat deucht mir erst, wo Kuehl- und Foerdertuerme ragen."

Hach...da is heute leida kaum no' watt von uebba. Selpz dat schoene Ruahdeutsch is die Juhngt schonn am Valearn dran. Die gehn lieba auffe Ruhr-Unni statt auffem Puett. Die Welt bleipt nich stehn. Kannze ma kucken.
Oh God, you're killing me. *wiping tears from eyes*


Er, yeah, let me pull myself together...

Yeah, it exists, and is just as silly as nationalism, but quite a bit more harmless, as someone said above.

Still, regionalism is potentially as dangerous as nationalism. Take Basque ETA for example.

That's different - it isn't a regional movement, but rather a nationalist one. The Basques see themselves as having a seperate culture to the majority Spanish, and they have their own language which is totally different.

I'm pretty guilty of that. I love Northern California in a creepy non-platonic way...

And we have rivalries. The Northern and southern half of this state don't get along, the only thing we agree on is the land locked states are crazy.

Within that I have the same feeling for the county I live in.

It's not so much that I think they can do no wrong, but I just love it here. I love the way we live (for the most part) and I love the geography-the weather the surroundings the redwoods the beaches.

I think it's a more realistic and closer to the core feeling in humans, a connection to our pack, so to speak, that is slightly less abstract than attaching that feeling to a larger nation. We're really only wired for about 150 people, so at least this gets closer to what we're built for.

I'd say that Lokalpatriotsmus comes more from the fact that Germany itself was formed of a number of much smaller regions, who themselves were once small nations before unification. Given the post-WWII era, many Germans probably find themselves at odds with identifying with the nation as a whole when it so recently has recovered from a difficult past. It is easier on the people to separate the crimes and history of Germany from the actions and history of Bavaria, for example.

I think that Germans are a fiercely patriotic and proud people...it's in their blood. It is just in these times that patriotism is associated with the nationalism and zeal of a certain German political party in the 1930s. If some great and immediate threat were to come against the nation, faith and pride in "Deutschland" would rise greatly.

I'd say that Lokalpatriotsmus comes more from the fact that Germany itself was formed of a number of much smaller regions, who themselves were once small nations before unification. Given the post-WWII era, many Germans probably find themselves at odds with identifying with the nation as a whole when it so recently has recovered from a difficult past. It is easier on the people to separate the crimes and history of Germany from the actions and history of Bavaria, for example.

I think that Germans are a fiercely patriotic and proud people...it's in their blood. It is just in these times that patriotism is associated with the nationalism and zeal of a certain German political party in the 1930s. If some great and immediate threat were to come against the nation, faith and pride in "Deutschland" would rise greatly.

Er... don't know what Germans you're talking about, but I know none that would have any kind of faith in the country as such..

Datt is schonn ok, wenn sich eina mit seine engere Heimat identifitziat, obbet nu Bochum-Gerthe is odda Untafrankng odda Winsen anne Luhe. Wennet abba dahin geht, datti Junx von Dorstfeld mein, dattse dehn von Huckaade getz watt auffet Fressbrett kloppm muessen, dann is Schluss mit lustich, dann gehtat eindeutich zu weit.

Plattdeutsch is uebrings ne wundaschoene Sprache. Nich so schoen wie dat Ruahdeutsch, abba nah dranne.

[It's perfectly ok to identify yourself with your home county, city or 'hood, no matter where in the world. However, when rivalry leads to tribal violence, fun is over.]

[Low German is a beautiful language. Not as beautiful as Ruhr German, but close.]

That's different - it isn't a regional movement, but rather a nationalist one. The Basques see themselves as having a seperate culture to the majority Spanish, and they have their own language which is totally different.

I think the line between regionalism and nationalism can be rather blurry at times. Texas is an example that comes readily to mind.

I think the line between regionalism and nationalism can be rather blurry at times. Texas is an example that comes readily to mind. Yeah, but it's still a difference. For example, I know that you're pretty proud of being from Michigan, and even if I knew every single Michigander (see, I actually learned something from you ;)) was very or even blindly patriotic about their home state, it wouldn't really bother me all that much - because it wouldn't be a threat to the international community.

Now, if every sinlge Americans were blindly patriotic and nationalistic, it would be a whole different story, seeing how that would actually be really dangerous to everybody else (and themselves, btw).

Yeah, but it's still a difference. For example, I know that you're pretty proud of being from Michigan, and even if I knew every single Michigander (see, I actually learned something from you ;)) was very or even blindly patriotic about their home state, it wouldn't really bother me all that much - because it wouldn't be a threat to the international community.

Now, if every sinlge Americans were blindly patriotic and nationalistic, it would be a whole different story, seeing how that would actually be really dangerous to everybody else (and themselves, btw).

See, there's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Regionalism is almost entirely more on the patriotic side: we have our place, we like our place, and we don't care what you think about our place, but your place is just awful anyway and we don't want it. Patriotism/regionalism is not real compatible with an internationalistic ideal, but it's also fairly non-agresssive.

Nationalism is more "We're more awesome than you so you should be like us", and is really a threat to international cooperation. It's not even a practical way of getting anything done.

I'm all in favor of regionalism and patriotism (I don't so much like internationalism, although I'm in favour of cooperation), but nationalism is just dangerous.

There is nothing inately wrong with either nationalism or regionalism. It's what people do with them that can cause problems.

Scots currently have the two confused. Some see their patriotism as nationalism, while others see it as regionalism. Which kind of illustrates how the difference can become blurred.

In Norway, lokapatriotisme is very much alive. But, at least here, its completely harmless. Its often a way to distinguish oneself, a natural part of our identity. A nordlending or a vestlending will often be described as such first, and then on more personal traits.

As with national patriotism, IMO, in itself it is not harmful, unless its used to justify or promote hatered.

I admit I can be a bit of a regionalist. Why does Alberta get oil, and Ontario get attention? BC is the best! Long live the West Coast!

It exists strongly over here. There are traditional rivalries between the states. Whenever I visit South Australia, i'm a "bloody Victorian", despite being a "bloody crow eater" to most Victorians when they find out I was born in South Australia.

Yeah, it's just as silly as Nationalism, though a bit more harmless.

South Australian eh? You seemed mostly OK. Have you had treatment for this problem?

South Australian eh? You seemed mostly OK. Have you had treatment for this problem?

Why do you think I escaped? ;)

The lokalnationalism thing is pretty prevalent in Quebec. If things start going their way, they'll be the next Montenegro.

Oh, by the way, the reason Ontario gets all the attention is because it's the most populous province, the one with the largest city and the capital, and it's one of the oldest provinces. Plus, it's right in the middle, where everything is. Other than that shpeil, I'm Canadian before Ontarian, probably because Ontario has no recognizable culture or identity.

Heh, lokal pride can be a brilliant thing. It helps people get in touch with eachother, and helps unite communities.

Of course, it also results in traditional Friday night bootparties & hooliganism, which most people consider bad things (I don't necessarily).

I don't think I've ever been to a place where people didn't have an explosive amount of local pride, though some places seems a bit more relaxed about it than others. I'd say mainland Europe prolly indulge themselves the most in this custom, but overall, I think it's a positive force in communities - regardless of how silly it may seem on paper.

I think it's a good thing. It's a devolved form of patriotism (rather than Nationalism) in my view, and like many say, it's healthy in that it brings communities closer. That said, despite being minarchist, I see nothing wrong with patriotism on a larger scale, ie having reasoned pride in one's country. I am Euro-patriotic myself. Where I draw the line is blind nationalism, ie the Nation coming before the citizen.