NationStates Jolt Archive

Pat Robertson is such a nice guy

What? Are you serious?

I'm quater Jewish myself. Go Jews!


If you mean you are quarter Jewish I honestly don't see how you can be because it's a religion not a race.

You think I'm strange. :(

Are you a Reform Jew then? Do you get into any trouble being a republican?

I am beleive in Judaism and try to live my life morally. I take the religion and bible as codes of conduct and rules of society. I dont feel the need to go to temple, keep kosher or speak Hebrew..because I can be just as Jewish following the religion on my own. Thats what seperates us from the Catholics. No I dont get in any trouble being a Republican, nor does my family. I am socially moderate yet leaning Conservative, and economically I am very capitalist. I fit in the party just fine.

Convenient? No. I am Jewish because my mother is Jewish. I have no choice in the matter. Now, I might identify as Jewish for other reasons - and I do - but I am Jewish whether or not I identify as Jewish.



The point of being Chosen is expressed just as much in sin as it is in obedience; that's why the Bible is full of examples of God punishing the Jews for worshipping other gods. Why? Because according to Judaism all Jews, faithful or not, have a duty to be faithful, and you don't lose that duty just because you aren't.



You don't have a choice in being chosen. It isn't a status you can abandon.

We will very strongly disagree on this one. Beleving that a religion, a beleif is passed down through genetics is retarded. We live in an age that values the individual and individual choice. You, as a leftist should know that beyond all people, especially me.

I am beleive in Judaism and try to live my life morally. I take the religion and bible as codes of conduct and rules of society. I dont feel the need to go to temple, keep kosher or speak Hebrew..because I can be just as Jewish following the religion on my own. Thats what seperates us from the Catholics. No I dont get in any trouble being a Republican, nor does my family. I am socially moderate yet leaning Conservative, and economically I am very capitalist. I fit in the party just fine.

You seem to have a strong morality even on your own. Reform Judaism is extremely flexible by allowing you all these options.

Pat Robertson is such a nice guy

What? Are you serious?[/QUOTE]

I mean, separate from his politics. Why can't the majority Christians have a nativity scene? What's the big deal?

What has Pat Robertson pushed that is exclusively Christian and/or anti-Jewish?

We will very strongly disagree on this one. Beleving that a religion, a beleif is passed down through genetics is retarded.

I said "Jewish people," not "Jewish religion." The Jewish people have, according to Judaism, an obligation to follow the Jewish religion and all of its laws . Being a part of the Jewish people is a matter of matrilineal descent, and it can also be achieved through conversion. Belief in Judaism does not make you Jewish, and non-belief does not make you not Jewish. It just isn't how it works.

We live in an age that values the individual and individual choice. You, as a leftist should know that beyond all people, especially me.

Did I say I agreed with the system? No. But that is the system.

I am beleive in Judaism and try to live my life morally. I take the religion and bible as codes of conduct and rules of society. I dont feel the need to go to temple, keep kosher or speak Hebrew..because I can be just as Jewish following the religion on my own. Thats what seperates us from the Catholics. No I dont get in any trouble being a Republican, nor does my family. I am socially moderate yet leaning Conservative, and economically I am very capitalist. I fit in the party just fine.

Are you interested in Jesus Christ at all? At least a little? He is the forfillment of prophecy, the completion of Judaism.

I mean, separate from his politics.

His bigotry?

Kosher method of slaughtering animals... :(
Cutting off the male's foreskin... :(
Zionist movement... :(

But other than that... Jews are le awesome! :)

I said "Jewish people," not "Jewish religion." The Jewish people have, according to Judaism, an obligation to follow the Jewish religion and all of its laws . Being a part of the Jewish people is a matter of matrilineal descent, and it can also be achieved through conversion. Belief in Judaism does not make you Jewish, and non-belief does not make you not Jewish. It just isn't how it works.

Did I say I agreed with the system? No. But that is the system.

Why don't return home to Temple? Tonight/tomorrow is the shabbos.

Why don't return home to Temple? Tonight/tomorrow is the shabbos.

Because I haven't entered a synagogue since Passover, and I have no intention of doing so now?

Because I haven't entered a synagogue since Passover, and I have no intention of doing so now?

Just say something nice to the rabbi and sit in the back. It will do your heart good.

How is Pat Robinson a bigot? He is really a nice old guy.

Kosher method of slaughtering animals... :(
Cutting off the male's foreskin... :(
Zionist movement... :(

But other than that... Jews are le awesome! :)

All the atheists, who preach Tolerance as a first principle, tend to be intolerant of any faith that has any requirement of its adherents.

No offense, New Zero. lol

Just say something nice to the rabbi and sit in the back. It will do your heart good.

No. It won't.

How is Pat Robinson a bigot? He is really a nice old guy.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/14/robertson_says_islam_isnt_a_faith_of_peace/
http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/June98/062498e.htm

All the atheists, who preach Tolerance as a first principle, tend to be intolerant of any faith that has any requirement of its adherents.

No offense, New Zero. lol

Luckily for me, I'm not Athiest. :cool:

I LOVE JEWISH PEOPLES!!!! :eek:

No. It won't.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/14/robertson_says_islam_isnt_a_faith_of_peace/
http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/June98/062498e.htm

Islam is a violent religion, which unlike other faiths, can clearly be shown to be in serious error. Certainly Pat Robertson is much more tolerant of Islam than Islam would be of dhimmis (the rest of us) if they ran the USA.

Being gay isn't an immutable characteristic, even if you have tendency to act out in a homosexual manner, you can still refrain. Condeming an immoral lifestyle is not bigoted because it's criticizing a behavior, not a human characteristic.

But let's debate Judaism, not these other things.

Luckily for me, I'm not Athiest. :cool:

I LOVE JEWISH PEOPLES!!!! :eek:

So does everyone. Many people wish they were Jewish.

All the atheists, who preach Tolerance as a first principle, tend to be intolerant of any faith that has any requirement of its adherents.

No offense, New Zero. lol

I'm an atheist and I preach intolerance of organised religion because it's intolerant of me. Religion's an individual choice, and shouldn't be organised. Up the loonies and down with the pope!

EDIT:

"Islam is a violent religion... which can clearly be shown to be in error..."

Unlike, say, Judaism (the Old Testament's got its fair share of ethnic cleansing and genocidal wars), or Christianity (Crusades, anyone) then, of course.

Islam is a violent religion, which unlike other faiths, can clearly be shown to be in serious error. Certainly Pat Robertson is much more tolerant of Islam than Islam would be of dhimmis (the rest of us) if they ran the USA.

Being gay isn't an immutable characteristic, even if you have tendency to act out in a homosexual manner, you can still refrain. Condeming an immoral lifestyle is not bigoted because it's criticizing a behavior, not a human characteristic.

Ah, I see. You share his bigotry. Never mind.

Ah, I see. You share his bigotry. Never mind.

No, I was pretending to be fundy for a minute. Sometimes I get a little delirious. I feel that Pat Robertson falls under this statement:

Racist, sexist, anti-gay, right-wing bigot go away!

Where's Mirkana, he promised to respond to everything.

Let's talk about the Torah.

Let's talk about Jewish people.

I like the potato latkes.

I like the potato latkes.

I wish I could eat them with a Jewish family.

I wish I could eat them with a Jewish family.

I'd like to eat them, period. :)

I've been lurking on this thread for a while and I have a few thoughts. The first is that Judaism does not easily fit within a nice box. It is an organized religion, a personal philosophy, and an ethnicity/cultural heritage. So to use myself as an example, I am a Jew just based on my last name (just as we can reasonably assume someone named McBeth is Scottish or O'Malley is Irish). More importantly I have been raised with certain values such as a respect for education, respect for good laws (at least in spirit if not letter), and the responsibility to do what is right and make the world a better place. I would consider all of these core values in the Jewish philosophy. They are compatable w/ numerous other philosophies and beliefs. The most common being Atheism, Buddhism, and Taoism. I would argue that it is incompatable w/ Christianity b/c Judaism de-emphsizes the afterlife, accepting things on faith, and the value of belief over actions. In addition many Rabbis and other Jewish scholars would say that a belief in god is not necessary to subscribe to the Jewish philosophy or religion but merely a respect for important Jewish values. Somewhere in either the Tanach or the Talmud or something there is a line about how it is better to forget about god and remember the laws than vise-versa b/c the laws are a path to god not the other way around. In addition one can help the world a lot more by intelligently following the spirit of the Jewish laws than by acknowledging god. That's jsut my rant on Jewishness.

I've been lurking on this thread for a while and I have a few thoughts. The first is that Judaism does not easily fit within a nice box. It is an organized religion, a personal philosophy, and an ethnicity/cultural heritage. So to use myself as an example, I am a Jew just based on my last name (just as we can reasonably assume someone named McBeth is Scottish or O'Malley is Irish). More importantly I have been raised with certain values such as a respect for education, respect for good laws (at least in spirit if not letter), and the responsibility to do what is right and make the world a better place. I would consider all of these core values in the Jewish philosophy. They are compatable w/ numerous other philosophies and beliefs. The most common being Atheism, Buddhism, and Taoism. I would argue that it is incompatable w/ Christianity b/c Judaism de-emphsizes the afterlife, accepting things on faith, and the value of belief over actions. In addition many Rabbis and other Jewish scholars would say that a belief in god is not necessary to subscribe to the Jewish philosophy or religion but merely a respect for important Jewish values. Somewhere in either the Tanach or the Talmud or something there is a line about how it is better to forget about god and remember the laws than vise-versa b/c the laws are a path to god not the other way around. In addition one can help the world a lot more by intelligently following the spirit of the Jewish laws than by acknowledging god. That's jsut my rant on Jewishness.

I think a lot of political progressives share these values.

I know in Reform belief in G-d is optional.

My opinion on Judaism is just like any other religion. To all of them I give a thunderous, resounding, "Meh". It's good for some people, bad for others, just like any other religion.

As for Jewish people, they get another resounding "Meh". I'll admit, I've only actually met two or three Jews in my entire life, and that was when I was in the Army, but I don't understand what hoopla is about. To me, the extreme "I love the Jews!" people are just as silly (although far more preferable) as the "I hate the Jews!" people. They're just people, nothing to get worked up over.

I know in Reform belief in G-d is optional.

Actually in Reform a belief in God was one of the few fundamentals. Its part of the 1885 Pittsburg Platform, which states:

"We recognize in every religion an attempt to grasp the Infinite, and in every mode, source or book of revelation held sacred in any religious system the consciousness of the indwelling of God in man. We hold that Judaism presents the highest conception of the God-idea as taught in our Holy Scriptures and developed and spiritualized by the Jewish teachers, in accordance with the moral and philosophical progress of their respective ages. We maintain that Judaism preserved and defended midst continual struggles and trials and under enforced isolation, this God-idea as the central religious truth for the human race."

And the 1999 reaffirmation in Pittsburgh states "We affirm the reality and oneness of God, even as we may differ in our understanding of the Divine presence."

Reform Judaism is very humanistic, but it doesn't go quite so far as to say that a belief in God is not required. The document in 1885 also affirms a belief in a Messianic age, while this is left out of the 1999 document.

To me, the extreme "I love the Jews!" people are just as silly (although far more preferable) as the "I hate the Jews!" people. They're just people, nothing to get worked up over.

As a secular person, its easy to view Jews objectively as people and nothing different or anything to get worked up about. What you have to keep in mind is that religiousity bread both views - the "I love the Jews" people and the "I hate the Jews" people.

Anti-Semitism in Europe, and thus in most of the Western world, was a result of the Christian church teaching and enforcing anti-Semitism for about 1500 years. Paradoxically, it was also out of Christianity that select groups began to revere the Jewish people for various reasons, such as the belief they are needed to fulfill prophecy or on the basis of Biblical interpretations alone.

Thus, even today, the most extreme views on Jews come from different ends of the Christian spectrum. Some Christian groups shout "We love the Jews" while even the largest neo-Nazi group in the United States' official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ Christian."

I've been lurking on this thread for a while and I have a few thoughts. The first is that Judaism does not easily fit within a nice box. It is an organized religion, a personal philosophy, and an ethnicity/cultural heritage. So to use myself as an example, I am a Jew just based on my last name (just as we can reasonably assume someone named McBeth is Scottish or O'Malley is Irish). More importantly I have been raised with certain values such as a respect for education, respect for good laws (at least in spirit if not letter), and the responsibility to do what is right and make the world a better place. I would consider all of these core values in the Jewish philosophy. They are compatable w/ numerous other philosophies and beliefs. The most common being Atheism, Buddhism, and Taoism. I would argue that it is incompatable w/ Christianity b/c Judaism de-emphsizes the afterlife, accepting things on faith, and the value of belief over actions. In addition many Rabbis and other Jewish scholars would say that a belief in god is not necessary to subscribe to the Jewish philosophy or religion but merely a respect for important Jewish values. Somewhere in either the Tanach or the Talmud or something there is a line about how it is better to forget about god and remember the laws than vise-versa b/c the laws are a path to god not the other way around. In addition one can help the world a lot more by intelligently following the spirit of the Jewish laws than by acknowledging god. That's jsut my rant on Jewishness.
From the previous post it almost seems that Judaism has almost no form of mandatory moral law. It has some laws that are morally neutral, like dietry habits, but for things that are really a question of right and wrong, it doesn't demand much of believers.

I have a feeling the above statement is mostly representative of the Reform and Atheist branches of Judaism, and not the more orthodox versions.

The Reform Judaism 1885 Declaration of Principles is mostly a re-hash of the Communist Manifesto; Dec. of Principles Article VIII:

In full accordance with the spirit of the Mosaic legislation, which strives to regulate the relations between rich and poor, we deem it our duty to participate in the great task of modern times, to solve, on the basis of justice and righteousness, the problems presented by the contrasts and evils of the present organization of society. (my emphasis)

From the previous post it almost seems that Judaism has almost no form of mandatory moral law. It has some laws that are morally neutral, like dietry habits, but for things that are really a question of right and wrong, it doesn't demand much of believers.

Virtually all of the morals that you can find in the Gospels were ones that the Gospel authors borrowed from Jewish sources. The Golden Rule was created by Rabbi Hillel, who lived about 100 years before Jesus. Jesus' ruling on adultery was created by Rabbi Shammai, a contemporary of Hillel. A lot of the suppossed high morality in Christianity only exists because it was borrowed from Judaism, word for word. Further, most of the high morality found in Christianity that didn't come from Judaism was borrowed from other contemporary pagan religions.

And why do you think that kashurt law is not morality based? The fact is, it is an issue of right or wrong. Its wrong for Jews to not keep kosher, according to the Torah and Law. What about the 10 commandments? No moral law there either, right? Don't steal, don't kill, etc.

Our entire Talmud is full of moral law. Something you may not be familiar with is tikkun olam, or making the world a better place. That is something that we should be striving to do as Jews. Much more moral than what we find in Christianity, which has no form of statement regarding this world, as it rejects the humanity of this world in leiu of a pie-in-the-sky heaven.

In fact, tikkun olam is even a principle regarded by the liberal sects, such as Reform.

The Reform Judaism 1885 Declaration of Principles is mostly a re-hash of the Communist Manifesto; Dec. of Principles Article VIII:

In full accordance with the spirit of the Mosaic legislation, which strives to regulate the relations between rich and poor, we deem it our duty to participate in the great task of modern times, to solve, on the basis of justice and righteousness, the problems presented by the contrasts and evils of the present organization of society. (my emphasis)

The 1885 Pittsburgh Platform states quite a bit contrary to the Communist Manifesto, such as a belief in God and a coming messianic age.

However, its correct that regulations between the rich and poor is in the spirit of Mosaic legislation. There are many regulations of just this such you can find in the Torah. I guess Moses was a Marxist.

Our entire Talmud is full of moral law. Something you may not be familiar with is tikkun olam, or making the world a better place. That is something that we should be striving to do as Jews. Much more moral than what we find in Christianity, which has no form of statement regarding this world, as it rejects the humanity of this world in leiu of a pie-in-the-sky heaven.
The most dangerous part of Reform Judaism is it's obsession of tikkum olam and making all individual morality "optional." This is just a way to absolve the individual any morality whatsoever, so long as they vote Democrat and put in some time fighting for leftist causes. All these leftist causes have only caused misery in the world, but that doesn't matter so long as the intentions were good.

Christians believe in individual charity, but tikkum olam calls for a massive redestribution of wealth by force of government in the Marxist-Leninist tradition.

I am strongly pro-Jewish, I just feel Reform was a major step in the wrong direction. Perhaps listening to the wise rabbis of the past would be a step in the right direction.

The most dangerous part of Reform Judaism is it's obsession of tikkum olam and making all individual morality "optional." This is just a way to absolve the individual any morality whatsoever, so long as they vote Democrat and put in some time fighting for leftist causes. All these leftist causes have only caused misery in the world, but that doesn't matter so long as the intentions were good.

Actually tikkun olam would prohibit any type of individual morality that isn't consistent with positive progress. Reform Judaism tends to have a moderate stance as well that is consistent with Jewish values. This is why it breaks away from Leftist leanings when it does little things like supporting the State of Israel.

Christians believe in individual charity, but tikkum olam calls for a massive redestribution of wealth by force of government in the Marxist-Leninist tradition.

No, tikkun olam doesn't call for a mass resdistribution of wealth by force. Nor does Reform Judaism. Interestingly enough, the Torah does actually call for redistribution of wealth by force, such as the canceling of debts at the 7th year. It would make more sense to accuse Moses of being the Marxist-Leninist rather than Reform Judaism, which rejects laws like that.

However, in reality, no Jewish sect calls for anything similiar to the redistribution of wealth as outlined in Marxism.

I am strongly pro-Jewish, I just feel Reform was a major step in the wrong direction. Perhaps listening to the wise rabbis of the past would be a step in the right direction.

Wel, it was a wise Rabbi of the past, Isaac Luria, who coined the phrase "tikkun olam." I doubt you'll find anything in Luria's writings that could make you interpret tikkun olam to refer to a mass distribution of wealth by force. Its a principle adhered to by all Jews, not just Reformists.

Actually tikkun olam would prohibit any type of individual morality that isn't consistent with positive progress. Reform Judaism tends to have a moderate stance as well that is consistent with Jewish values. This is why it breaks away from Leftist leanings when it does little things like supporting the State of Israel.

No, tikkun olam doesn't call for a mass resdistribution of wealth by force. Nor does Reform Judaism. Interestingly enough, the Torah does actually call for redistribution of wealth by force, such as the canceling of debts at the 7th year. It would make more sense to accuse Moses of being the Marxist-Leninist rather than Reform Judaism, which rejects laws like that.

However, in reality, no Jewish sect calls for anything similiar to the redistribution of wealth as outlined in Marxism.

Wel, it was a wise Rabbi of the past, Isaac Luria, who coined the phrase "tikkun olam." I doubt you'll find anything in Luria's writings that could make you interpret tikkun olam to refer to a mass distribution of wealth by force. Its a principle adhered to by all Jews, not just Reformists.

I see your point. It just seems most of the time the Reform, Reconstructionist, and Atheist branches of Judaism are more about left-wing politics than they are about God and His glory.

Anyhow, the idea of forgetting about God but keeping his Law, is something that Christians wouldn't agree with, only because the Messiach, our Lord Christ, taught us that the Law was only to show us that we can't "earn" salvation, but receive it by God's enduring grace. ("not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offenses")

The idea that you can forget about God, but still follow all of his Laws, thereby "forcing His hand" so-to-speak, is foreign to me.

Anyhow, the idea of forgetting about God but keeping his Law, is something that Christians wouldn't agree with, only because the Messiach, our Lord Christ, taught us that the Law was only to show us that we can't "earn" salvation, but receive it by God's enduring grace. ("not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offenses")

That isn't a strictly Christian teaching either. The idea of salvation through faith in a deity, in exactly the same style that Christianity teaches, existed in the contemporary pagan religions that Christianity borrowed from.

On a similiar note, Judaism did not, and does not teach, that salvation comes through keeping mitzvot. This is a belief that many Christians hold regarding Judaism, and a misunderstanding of Judaism that the early Goy Christians, such as the Gospel authors, held as well. In fact, salvation in Judaism means something totally different than what it means in Christianity.

In Christianity, to be "saved" has to do with the afterlife and getting to heaven. In Judaism, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the physical preservation while you're alive on this Earth. The Christian theology regarding salvation is better compared to the pagan religions it borrowed the concept from, rather than Judaism, which has no similiar theology.

Likewise, Judaism does not teach that keeping the Law is what earns us any type of salvation or atonement for sins. Rather, that is only a part of it. Isaiah 43 states that God is actually the salvation, and numerous places state that it is our faith and repentence rather than keeping the law that grants atonement.

The idea that you can forget about God, but still follow all of his Laws, thereby "forcing His hand" so-to-speak, is foreign to me.

Christians do the opposite, which is just as bad. They think they can forget about God's laws, but still follow God.

Christians do the opposite, which is just as bad. They think they can forget about God's laws, but still follow God.

No, Christians follow the Law, but ultimately the decision is God's. We don't assume that the Law alone will save us.

The Messiach, Jesus Christ, did come for the Jews first and formost because they are God's Chosen. He chose to reveal Himself to those that were downtrodden in life, not the high and mighty. Luckily, by His grace, Jesus also opened grace to all peoples. I hated being just a Noahide Goy!

Now I'm liberated through the Lord Christ.

Blessed be God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I don't know why they don't acknowledge Christ, but it doesn't really matter. God chose them so they must be good. GO JEWS!

No, Christians follow the Law, but ultimately the decision is God's. We don't assume that the Law alone will save us.

No one has ever believed that the Law would save them in Judaism. This is just one of the anti-Semitic myths that was developed early in Christianity, even in the Gospels, based on a misunderstanding of Judaism.

Its an interesting phenomenon because it demonstrates the significant lack of Jewish influence in the early Christian movement and in the authorship of the Gospels. An outsider looking in could easily perceive Judaism to teach that by following the Law you earn salvation, but anyone actually familiar with Judaism knows that it not only doesn't teach that, but it doesn't even have that type of salvation as part of its construct. It goes to demonstrate the fact that the Gospels were most likely written by non-Jews or heavily hellenized Jews.

I don't know why they don't acknowledge Christ, but it doesn't really matter. God chose them so they must be good. GO JEWS!

Well, I'll explain. We don't believe that Jesus it the Christ, or Messiah, because Jesus didn't fulfill all of the messianic prophecies. Most of the prophecies that Christians claim he fulfilled were never prophecy to begin with, but were developed as proof-texts. The prophecies he didn't fulfill Christians mostly ignore, like world peace, and everyone coming to worship God. Christians claim that he'll do it when he comes back a second time, yet that occurs nowhere in Jewish scripture.

The second big reason we don't believe in Jesus, aside from unfulfilled prophecy, is that Christianity was heavily based on contemporary pagan religions, such as the cults of Mithras and Dionysus. The heavy pagan influence is contrary to what the Torah teaches about idolatry.

I don't know why they don't acknowledge Christ, but it doesn't really matter. God chose them so they must be good. GO JEWS!

The Jews are awesome. They could keep all their teachings and accept Christ, but they don't want to due to religious reasons.

Anyhow, God has a different role for his Chosen than for the rest of us. The role of the Chosen is to lead humanity to better times. The only thing is I dislike socialism, but that is why God has given the Jewish people the task of leading us to it. Hopefully, once socialism is fully implemented in a few more decades, it will be awesome.

Well, I'll explain. We don't believe that Jesus it the Christ, or Messiah, because Jesus didn't fulfill all of the messianic prophecies. Most of the prophecies that Christians claim he fulfilled were never prophecy to begin with, but were developed as proof-texts. The prophecies he didn't fulfill Christians mostly ignore, like world peace, and everyone coming to worship God. Christians claim that he'll do it when he comes back a second time, yet that occurs nowhere in Jewish scripture.

The second big reason we don't believe in Jesus, aside from unfulfilled prophecy, is that Christianity was heavily based on contemporary pagan religions, such as the cults of Mithras and Dionysus. The heavy pagan influence is contrary to what the Torah teaches about idolatry.

Our Lord God lead the goy to Christianity through philosophy and the Jews through the prophets. The Mithras stuff has just been used recently by progressives to attack Christianity.

Our Lord God lead the goy to Christianity through philosophy and the Jews through the prophets. The Mithras stuff has just been used recently by progressives to attack Christianity.

The "Mithras stuff" is current scholarly concensus. Its also been recognized since the first century. Celsus noted the pagan influences on Christianity, specifically that of the Mithras cult, as did Christian church fathers like Justin Martyr. The latter simply excused the pagan influences as being a result of the devil setting up pagan religions ahead of time to mock the future messiah. It was Martyr's "wicked devils" excuse that explained away pagan influences for 500+ years until the region sunk into the Dark Ages, Christians became illiterate, and the pagan influences were forgotten.

The "Mithras stuff" is current scholarly concensus. Its also been recognized since the first century. Celsus noted the pagan influences on Christianity, specifically that of the Mithras cult, as did Christian church fathers like Justin Martyr. The latter simply excused the pagan influences as being a result of the devil setting up pagan religions ahead of time to mock the future messiah. It was Martyr's "wicked devils" excuse that explained away pagan influences for 500+ years until the region sunk into the Dark Ages, Christians became illiterate, and the pagan influences were forgotten.

TropicalSands, what is your politics?

God and His glory.


People who believe in god (I'm not one of them) give the Great Cloud Being way too much credit for "glory."

It should be god and his gory when you think about all the blood shed in the name of "god's love."

TropicalSands, what is your politics?

Depends on the issue, I don't vote along party lines or anything. If it helps, I voted against Bush twice and supported Netanyahu in the recent Israeli elections. I follow Israeli politics more closely than US politics, and on that political spectrum I'm generally center right. Regarding US politics, based on my voting habits, it would seem that I'm left.

Depends on the issue, I don't vote along party lines or anything. If it helps, I voted against Bush twice and supported Netanyahu in the recent Israeli elections. I follow Israeli politics more closely than US politics, and on that political spectrum I'm generally center right. Regarding US politics, based on my voting habits, it would seem that I'm left.

How old are you? I strongly support Likud and the various orthodox parties.

It will never happen, but assuming Tropical Sands proves the falsehood of Christianity and the truth of Judaism, what can I do? I know Judaism is inherited, you can convert, but it's discouraged. Am I doomed to a permanent Noahide existance?

I thought I should just break in here with an observation:

Truth and Conscience has posted an incredibly erratic and inconsistent body of opinions in this thread.

The main alternatives that occur to me are that either T&C has some degree of thinking disorder (frankly, the pattern reminds me of the one schizophrenic I met firsthand and another one whom I saw recorded for a documentary, there are degrees of this impediment short of crippling non functionaliyt)

Or he's a troll (just posts stuff to get a rise out of people).

Or T&C simply does not respect consensus about either facts (about history which have been skated over repeatedly) or about Jewish practice (ditto). In that case, they're not a Jew or a Christian, they're a member of the church of T&C.

In any event, I'm not responding to anything else he writes. I have better things to do than waste my time on responding to someone who is incapable of assimilating information save as it pleases them (or is just playing some social game with us).

Just a couple of the goggling biggies from the past:
Claims to be a Jew (post #77), claims to feel he's not one of the chosen (post #35), claims to "believe in Gaia" (post #114), claims that Jews are defined by being a chosen people (post #197) claims that endogamy (marrying within your religion) is a discriminatory practice (post #103 refering to #100)(And claims indirectly that endogamy wasn't a Jewish practice in #181)

Claims that sociological texts decrying Judaism as racist, hypocritical, and rooted in pure lust for power are correct (agreeing with Greyenivol Colony) (somewhere between post #77 and 100, lost the reference somehow), claims that Jews are special, chosen by G*d, and plainly have a historical mandate to be leaders of the shape of world morality (#199 and #205); yet states that Christians have stronger morals (#139) and that Jews were G*d's failed experiment to show the world how _not_ to do things (post #40)

If I was having a serious discussion at picnic table in the park with friends and some child came along spouting nonsense and interupting the discussion, I would look for their parents; if none were in evidence, would tell them to leave; if they persisted, would leave (or ignore them if leaving were not possible.)

Someone who is obviously of the age of majority like T&C doesn't have the excuse of being a kid, though, and innocent in their disruptions.

I don't know why they don't acknowledge Christ, but it doesn't really matter. God chose them so they must be good. GO JEWS!

Well, there's also the fact that historically, they are innovators who have been the first to adopt significant changes over and over far more than any other single identifiable group on matters of religion.
---> the vision of a G*d who's not running a celestial extortion racket
---> a view of religious practice that emphasizes ethics as a reflection of the wishes of a G*d of justice rather than ethics as upholding the irrational foibles of an anthropomorphic G*d.

(Give the Greeks Credit, they managed to come up (strictly speaking) with a totally de-anthropomrphicized G*d first, but the Jews took that up with _great_ enthusiasm, while the Platinists (sp?) were viewed as eccentrics within Greek and Roman society)

---> The first to free their faith from foundations in a specific geographic location and specific sacred sites and public rituals. (the end of Levite priesthood and the final destruction of the Temple) True, they _revered_ Jerusalem...and some think that going back to those physical foundations and ceremonies would be a good thing.

But for the majority of their history, the practice of the vast majority was to dwell upon their Law and the observance of such as the cornerstone of their religion.

Relatedly, the first to found a decentralized and non heirarchical institution of religious education and teachings of rituals.


---> The first to seriously search for the "spirit of the law" rather than the letter of holy texts alone.


It's also worth noting that being a Christian, you are saying that you are worshipping the same G*d who has the same desires as the G*d who stood over the Jews throughout their history before Jesus.

Yet that G*d clearly wrote many things which state that
(a) Jesus is a false prophet
(b) there are no hidden meanings or oblique codes in the Testament and that there is aline between analsysis and sophistry or disingenuity and that crossing this marks someones as unG*dly. And that there will be no further addenda from G*d needed.
(c) that the Oral Torah is the key to interpretting the written Torah.

So on what grounds do you disregard these injunctions and accept the words of Jesus and Paul that everything has to change according to the New Testament ?

It is especially interesting that the New Testament _also_ repeats (b) and this is the basis by which most Christians consider the Moslems and Latter Day Saints to be heretical cults :) And also is an injunction against cults of personality led by "holy men" whose teachings devolve into DaVinci Code like disregard for archaeological fact or historical writings.

If the Latter Day Saints, Molsems and the Children of G*d aren't allowed to disregard _your_ clause (b), how can _you_ dare disregard the _Jew's_ clause (b) ?

I thought I should just break in here with an observation:

Truth and Conscience has posted an incredibly erratic and inconsistent body of opinions in this thread.

The main alternatives that occur to me are that either T&C has some degree of thinking disorder (frankly, the pattern reminds me of the one schizophrenic I met firsthand and another one whom I saw recorded for a documentary, there are degrees of this impediment short of crippling non functionaliyt)

Or he's a troll (just posts stuff to get a rise out of people).

Or T&C simply does not respect consensus about neither facts (about history which have been skated over repeatedly) or about Jewish practice (ditto). In that case, they're not a Jew or a Christian, they're a member of the church of T&C.

In any event, I'm not responding to anything else he writes. I have better things to do than waste my time on someone who is incapable of assimilating information save as it pleases them (or is just playing some social game with us).

Just a couple of the goggling biggies from the past:
Claims to be a Jew (post #77), claims to feel he's not one of the chosen (post #35), claims to "believe in Gaia" (post #114), claims that Jews are defined by being a chosen people (post #197) claims that endogamy (marrying within your religion) is a discriminatory practice (post #103 refering to #100)(And claims indirectly that endogamy wasn't a Jewish practice in #181)

Claims that sociological texts decrying Judaism as racist, hypocritical, and rooted in pure lust for power are correct (agreeing with Greyenivol Colony) (somewhere between post #77 and 100, lost the reference somehow), claims that Jews are special, chosen by G*d, and plainly have a historical mandate to be leaders of the shape of world morality (#199 and #205); yet states that Christians have stronger morals (#139) and that Jews were G*d's failed experiment to show the world how _not_ to do things (post #40)

If I was having a serious discussion at picnic table in the park with friends and some child came along spouting nonsense and interupting the discussion, I would look for their parents; if none were in evidence, would tell them to leave; if they persisted, would leave (or ignore them if leaving were not possible.)

Someone who is obviously of the age of majority like T&C doesn't have the excuse of being a kid, though, and innocent in their disruptions.

Don't be mean to me, :( I'm crying now, my basic position is that I wish to be Jewish. Besides, I believe Reform Judaism does allow you to believe in Gaia and yet still remain Jewish in philosophy.

Also, I didn't acknowledge any lust for power by the Jewish people, I responded to Greyenivol Colony by saying "my anthropology professor taught me this also" because most college anthropology professors teach that religions were invented by the rulers of the past to "control the masses," and Greyenivol Colony was repeating the same thing his professor told him.

You are trying to respond to too many points at once, just do one at a time. As inidividual posts get longer, it's tempting to stop reading them. This is human nature, work with it, don't try to change it, it won't happen.

[snip][statement of defining philosophies]

Except for bit about common ground with Taoism and Buddhism I'd agree. And even if you are not a highly religious observant Jew (you have not stated information about this, but statistically, many these days are not) you have had at least a couple of the most important aspects of Judaism's teachings related to you and accepted by you.

So no need to call it a rant :) Another part of Judaism's teachings (I think? someone correct me on this if it's not so) is that the Law is to help humans be better. If you do not feel that you need more help than you have already received, forcing it down your throat would VERY un-Jewish....

But nice to see a lurker emerger. Feel free to say something contentious :)

Hi again Soheran,

was curious about one point you made in here somewhere (in a hurry, no quotes) about religious belief being distinct from cultural heritage in Judaism...

You're not saying that converts aren't equal to the rest of the Jewish community are you ? I thought Rambash(sp?) discredited that one a LONG time ago....

So what do you call converts if not Jews ?

Though I certainly accept that being _born_ to a Jewish family does lay a charge upon you, which you can accept or reject but which is definitely a distinction between those born in the community and those who convert...but I don't see it as being a distinction that amounts to much in practice ?

You write some of the best posts on the thread, so I'd like to hear more on this because maybe there's something here I have misunderstood....

I have nothing against Judaism. It's a religion rich in tradition and powerful symbols, with a theology somewhat less convoluted than Christianity (from my perspective), though it seems to be the nature of theology to get convoluted. :)

Mandatory Altruism,

I want to express my remorse for any harm I may have caused to your conscience and to your decency. I never meant anything to be a personal affront to any person or group.

You are one of the most intelligent of the Forum, and perhaps too smart for my level of conversation. I appreciated your summary of my beliefs; you took some time to compile it. In the end, it will be me that suffers the most by no longer being able to take advantage of your unique and informed insights.

I ask for your forgiveness, and when, in due course, you may be able to grant this, I will be so grateful.

In sorrow for my improper tone,
C&T

Hi again Soheran,

was curious about one point you made in here somewhere (in a hurry, no quotes) about religious belief being distinct from cultural heritage in Judaism...

You're not saying that converts aren't equal to the rest of the Jewish community are you ? I thought Rambash(sp?) discredited that one a LONG time ago....

Absolutely not. A convert who undergoes the process of conversion is a Jew just as much as any other. Like all of us they can accept or not accept the cultural heritage to the extent that they choose, but regardless they're still full Jews.

Conversion is like being born to a Jewish mother - if you do it, you're inducted into the Jewish people, and you have a duty (according to Judaism) to follow Jewish law.

The point I was trying to make is that you don't become a Jew simply through belief. You have to undergo a process of conversion. Similarly, you don't cease to be a Jew simply through non-belief - and as far I'm aware, there's no way out once you're in.

Though I certainly accept that being _born_ to a Jewish family does lay a charge upon you, which you can accept or reject but which is definitely a distinction between those born in the community and those who convert...but I don't see it as being a distinction that amounts to much in practice ?

A distinction in the sense that a born Jew doesn't choose to become a Jew, while a convert does? No, I don't think that's much of an issue. Well, except for the fact that many converts end up being more religious and more knowledgeable than the average Jew.

You write some of the best posts on the thread,

Thank you.

so I'd like to hear more on this because maybe there's something here I have misunderstood....

Well, I think you may be misunderstanding my emphasis on matrilineal descent - I'm not trying to argue that Jewishness is solely transferred that way, merely that it is transferred that way, and that transference isn't contingent on the person accepting it.

The point I was trying to make is that you don't become a Jew simply through belief. You have to undergo a process of conversion. Similarly, you don't cease to be a Jew simply through non-belief - and as far I'm aware, there's no way out once you're in.


As the one Jewish scholar who was talking to me put it "There is no exit formula for being a Jew". I tend to see this as the (more or less reasonable) belief that nothing particularly useful follows from cursing someone for not doing what they should. (As the Catholics do with excommunication, which is a very majestic sounding curse, in the text of it at any rate...)

The community, after all, is supposed to be _layered_ in defenses against various types of temptations to defy the Law. They don't work perfectly...but it's akin to not having a death penalty, immo...because having the option of the wrongdoer learning and changing their life is more important than trying to punish someone...

I was told by the same person that there _is_ a ritual that the congregation of faithful enacts to _serve notice_ to a member that they have crossed the lines of acceptible conduct, so far as the consensus of the community goes. And that until there are changes, the community is giving them something akin to the "silent treatment" and refusing to treat them as one of themselves.

Some of Judaism's greatest scholars have had this laid upon them (grins)....vindication of the theory that there's always a chance that someone's rebellion or disobedience may lead to something good in the long run.


A distinction in the sense that a born Jew doesn't choose to become a Jew, while a convert does? No, I don't think that's much of an issue. Well, except for the fact that many converts end up being more religious and more knowledgeable than the average Jew.


(nods) I was always impressed that Judaism sought to maintain a high grade of converts by (from some point in the past) refusing to prosletyze. Some of the worst Christian turns in religious practice have come from taking in converts who were more persuasive than correct....


Well, I think you may be misunderstanding my emphasis on matrilineal descent - I'm not trying to argue that Jewishness is solely transfered that way, merely that it is transfered that way, and that transference isn't something contingent on a person accepting it.

(nods) exactly. Ok, back on the same page. And this is precisely why I wouldn't count Marx as a Jew save to the degree his family retained and passed on their cultural heritage after converting to Christianity.

Some of Judaism's greatest scholars have had this laid upon them (grins)....vindication of the theory that there's always a chance that someone's rebellion or disobedience may lead to something good in the long run.

Baruch Spinoza?

(nods) I was always impressed that Judaism sought to maintain a high grade of converts by (from some point in the past) refusing to prosletyze. Some of the worst Christian turns in religious practice have come from taking in converts who were more persuasive than correct....

Yes, it's a good practice; it also is more respectful of other people's beliefs than the ceaseless drive to "save" everyone.

(nods) exactly. Ok, back on the same page. And this is precisely why I wouldn't count Marx as a Jew save to the degree his family retained and passed on their cultural heritage after converting to Christianity.

Well, I would. And I would count the Jews who don't even know they're Jews - and there are lots of them - as Jews also.

Baruch Spinoza?

No, Moses Maimonides, according to my scholar acquaintance.



Well, I would. And I would count the Jews who don't even know they're Jews - and there are lots of them - as Jews also.


Ah, but that's the point, I thought....Judaism is a cultural and relgious institution; to be born Jewish, culturally, you must be raised by a religiously observant Jewish mother (or a the very least one who despite not observing the Laws is following a higher-than-random-background-noise amount of the Law's precepts as embodied in Jewish culture). Once this link is broken, everyone thereafter in that line cannot be reckoned Jewish.

To receive a legacy of any sort from your parents, the parent whose power it is to bequeath it must possess the thing in order to pass it on. A person who has no discernible teaching in Jewish precepts of normative behaviour no longer has that legacy to pass on.

That's my logic, I'm curious why you disagree....

I suppose I should have studied more closely how _long_ Marx's family had ceased to be Jewish; if they were converts from say, around the Napoleonic Wars, it's quite possible there were still "greater than random chance" communication of Jewish ideas and ethics.

So perhaps he is one after all...do you know his positions on Judaism ? I would imagine he hated it as much as any organized religion...and thus he is among the signficant numbers of brilliant thinkers who owe a significant amount of their environmental influences to Judaism...but never reconciled with it, alas.

(Assuming his family had not converted in say, 15th century spain(that is, of the ones who truly converted, of which an indeterminate number did not))

So...is it fair to say that you feel there is some merit in the ethical and philosophical principles of Judaism....but disagree strongly with the _means_ that those principles are carried out in many Jewish communities ? (that is, religious organization making decisions at the top and propigating its choices through the authority of the Rabbinate?) (and perhaps disagree with some of the principles, but feel in general the overall structure of them is worthwhile?)

Just trying to see if I have a handle on where you "are", philosophically...

So we have multiple practicing Jews on this thread an no one has a detailed description of what the whole "G*d talked to everyone at Sinai and had this fact written down, since no one disputed it, he must have talked to them" proof in detail comparable to Soheran's post ?

It's a fairly major point. While it is not the underpinning of the faith it is on of the better "hrm, hadn't thought of that" bits that got _me_ thinking. I'm happy with it even in it's less-than-absolutely-authoritative form after weathering Soheran's observatiions....but is there any basis which he missed to make it stronger (in an objective sense) ?

They deny Jesus therefore they are going to Hell!

They're not nice, and they're wrong on their whole theological concept.

Can anyone please come up with any evidence that a monotheistic worship of Yah existed anywhere in the Middle East prior to the Hellenistic Era and the assembly of the Septuaginta? Any text or artefact? Anything?

Can anyone please come up with any evidence that a monotheistic worship of Yah existed anywhere in the Middle East prior to the Hellenistic Era and the assembly of the Septuaginta? Any text or artefact? Anything?

Prior to the Hellenistic Era? Quite easily. The inscriptions at Khirbhet el-Qom and Arjud.

Oh, a better example might be the ostracon dated to the 9th century that not only mentions Yah, but Bet Yah, the Temple. This finding was published in the Biblical Archaeology Review, 1999, Vol 23. It would seem that we have not only pre-Hellenistic Jewish monotheism at this time, but evidence for a Temple along the timeframe outlined in the Tanach.

Prior to the Hellenistic Era? Quite easily. The inscriptions at Khirbhet el-Qom and Arjud.

But the inscriptions of Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom mention Yah with a female consort, or at least another goddess. And Ajrud features drawings of Asherah.

But the inscriptions of Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom mention Yah with a female consort, or at least another goddess.

Those might, I missed monotheism at the first reading when that came to mind. Although, there is still quite a bit more. The Temple ostracon from the 9th century, for example, which not only mentions Yah alone but refers to the Temple, which conforms to a Biblical timeline and is inherently monotheistic.

What temple ostracon are those? They would predate the Assyrian invasion.

What temple ostracon are those? They would predate the Assyrian invasion.

Its referred to as the Bet Yahweh ostracon and was probably some sort of census or tax thing. Here (http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/westsem/bytyhwh.html) is a little web excerpt on it that gives a translation of the text.

We also have the ruins of the Second Temple, which I visited yesterday and the day before.
That's right, Mirkana is in Israel right now, typing on a public computer in the lobby of a kibbutz outside Jerusalem. I visited the Wall two days ago, and it was INCREDIBLE.

Just so long as they don't happen to be a pedophile, racist,asshole named Ian Young, then I'm fine with Jews.

You could say circumcision is pedophilic (paedophilic) - after all, it's messing about with the genitals of young children who can't decide for themselves... not to mention the fact that they are likely to feel extreme pain, wonder why their parents did something like that to them, hate what happened at a later date, and decide at a later date to NOT be jewish (sure these things could go the other way, but is harming your own child really worth the risk that they will feel even more pain (eg. psychological) in years to come?). http://www.nocirc.org/declare.php

You could say circumcision is pedophilic (paedophilic) - after all, it's messing about with the genitals of young children who can't decide for themselves... not to mention the fact that they are likely to feel extreme pain, wonder why their parents did something like that to them, hate what happened at a later date, and decide at a later date to NOT be jewish (sure these things could go the other way, but is harming your own child really worth the risk that they will feel even more pain (eg. psychological) in years to come?). http://www.nocirc.org/declare.php

Parents should not be able to force their children to do anything they don't want you. Thank Common Ancestor that the UN has passed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because it allows children to get access to information that their parents don't let them have.

As a Democrat, I have studied Fredrich Engels work on the origin of the family, and we should probably try to move humanity into a post-family situation, where teh government raises children by providing them education, heatlhcare, childcare and their own housing and food. ;)

If you want to move towards this progressive vision, I highly recommend voting for Jon Tester. It won't happen overnight, but the more Democrats we have, the more rights we get from the government!!

Do that, and I'm moving to Israel (or just not coming back, depending on how soon this happens).

Personally, what worries me the most is the fact that I could be turned down for a date for being a Goy even today and I wouldn't even be able to prepare for it unless I can identify Jews on site. And of course, if that does happen, I can't complain about it or I'm branded an anti-semite.

Hola hola, soy de argentina y hablo español.

Lo que no hay que hacer es generalizar, no todos los judios son malos, si bien creer en una religion tan contradictoria como el judaismo o el cristianismo esta mal no los voy a condenar por ingenuos o tontos...
Lo que si esta mal es la guerra que hacen contra Hezbollah y contra cualquier otro pais/nacion u organizacion, ellos se metieron donde no les correspondia a robar territorios a los palestinos y como son el "sobrino preferido" de EEUU, pueden quedarse en la zona con un armamento y una economia incomparables a las de sus vecinos sin que haya una oposicion de real peso.
Pero tambien hay israelies que estan en contra de la guerra y no son tan pocos.

Que viva el Libano!
Un abrazo revolucionario.
Presidente de la nacion de Croustow

Israel is the worst nation on the planet

Your credibility just went out the window with that statement.

Judaism is worthy of respect and the Jewish people deserve our support and compassion in view of the terrible persecution they have suffered over the centuries (unfortunately much of it at the hands of Christians). Christians should respect God's promise to the Jewish people and not actively try to convert them--there are plenty of others who need to hear the Word, reform their lives and stop doing things like blowing up . . . well, you know the story.

Interesting that the staunchest supporters of Israel are . . . conservative Christians.

Interesting that the staunchest supporters of Israel are . . . conservative Christians.
Trust me, the orthodox Jews are Israel's strongest supporters. Many even have dual American-Israeli citizenship.