NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I continue to the main thrust of what I would like to explain here, I should first like to establish what this discussion is NOT about. It is not about whether or not God exists, whether or not Jesus existed or any of the apoligetic questions regarding the validity of the Christian faith. What it is about is a question that is repeadly asked of the logic of the Christian faith which I intend to answer.

A question often asked of myself, and other Christians, is something along the lines of "Why did Jesus have to die to save us? Could'nt God have just forgiven us anyway". Often many people have struggled to answer this question, but the answer is, like all questions regarding the Christian faith, to be found in the Bible. Specificly in the parable of the two debtors.

For those who don't know it, here it is from Matthew

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Now this helps us understand the issue of why Jesus had to die for us. Because when the king wrote off the servents debts, that left a very large hole in the kings account books. Someone has to pay for that hole. Naturally it is the king himself. In the same way, God, to forgive us our debts (in sin) has to somehow pay for it. He does that in his sons death.

The other question often asked is "Why do we have to repent? You dont need someone to say sorry to forgive them, you can forgive them yourself". That is true. The process of forgiveness can be done by the wronged party alone. But God wants much more than just to forgive us. He wants our relationship to be reconsiled. Reconsiliation can only happen when both parties want it to. To reconsile a relationship, one has to say sorry and the other forgive.

Forgiveness is at the very heart of what it means to be a Christian

It is impossible to be forgiven you want to be forgiven, God will forgive people if they ask for forgiveness and truely mean it but if you don't repent you can't be forgiven.

That's my take on it, if someone does something to you can you forgive them if they aren't sorry and you both know it will happen again?

Bump. This is the full thread people. Discuss here

I don't see much of a difference, but OK...

One thing this seems to establish is a sort of sin-currency between God and people, something that must be kept in static supply and can't be printed or destroyed like money can. In effect, it would be a non-inflationary currency. The real question is, is there something that binds God to keep this currency relevant? That makes him have to respect debts, etc? That keeps him from doing what even a nation can, defaulting on his debts? Is God stuck to a gold standard or something? This seems manifestly non-omnipotent.

Oh, by the way, I've also got a random, pseudo-theological rationalisation for Jesus's death. The first thing to recognize in this rationalization is that Christ=Krishna. There are a huge number of similarities, look it up some time. Any way, point is that this all ties into something Krishna says during the Mahabharata: "I am become death, destroyer of worlds". Now the Mahabharata is basically the Indian version of the Iliad, and the purpose of both of the described wars is to wipe out a large percentage of the human population to stop overcrowding. That was what God was trying to engineer again during Jesus's time, by sending Krishna around again to start a war and kill everyone. But this time Krishna was able to avoid it, sacrificing both himself and Judas so that he could avoid being used as a tool of universal destruction.

Interesting, n'est pas? Totally unsupportable, but I like it.

I don't see much of a difference, but OK...

One thing this seems to establish is a sort of sin-currency between God and people, something that must be kept in static supply and can't be printed or destroyed like money can. In effect, it would be a non-inflationary currency. The real question is, is there something that binds God to keep this currency relevant? That makes him have to respect debts, etc? That keeps him from doing what even a nation can, defaulting on his debts? Is God stuck to a gold standard or something? This seems manifestly non-omnipotent.

Actually it's not God's fault.

The Worldbank and the IMF forced him into this system.

Even God is powerless against them.

Actually it's not God's fault.

The Worldbank and the IMF forced him into this system.

Even God is powerless against them.

So he had to cut his son-programs because people weren't filing their sin-tax-returns and he needed to repay his IMF sin-loan? Did they also make him open up sin-trade with the Hindu Trimutri? Their sins don't meet Christian sin-environmental standards!

So is this thread actually going to be the real one? My first post on here was a serious argument, and I'd appreciate it if Adriatica addressed it.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams



God, we forgive you.

Excellent point Adriatica II. It's nice to know that everyone on NS isn't a zealous Christian-hater.:)

As I said in the other thread, this portrayal of God is nonsensical.

No omnipotent being can be compared to a human king with a finite quantity of resources.

As I said in the other thread, this portrayal of God is nonsensical.

No omnipotent being can be compared to a human king with a finite quantity of resources.
I honestly don't understand why Christians cling to the notion of an all-powerful diety. It just creates impossible-to-solve logical quandries. The Greeks had a much better system; gods who are extremely powerful (and, therefore, we have reason to worship them) but who still have limitations to their abilities.

The Christian God honestly seems like early Christians were just trying to one-up the Romans. "Oh, so your bearded patriarch God can throw lightning bolts and rules over all gods and humans? Well, OUR bearded patriarch God is super-duper powerful! He's the mostest powerfullest in the whole universe! He's infinity-plus-one powerful!"

As I said in the other thread, this portrayal of God is nonsensical.

No omnipotent being can be compared to a human king with a finite quantity of resources.

Unless he isn't completely omnipotent, which is certainly a viable possibility, if a heretical one. I'm waiting to see if Adriatica will back something of that sort, namely that there is a fixed sin-currency outside of God's control.

I honestly don't understand why Christians cling to the notion of an all-powerful diety. It just creates impossible-to-solve logical quandries. The Greeks had a much better system; gods who are extremely powerful (and, therefore, we have reason to worship them) but who still have limitations to their abilities.

The Christian God honestly seems like early Christians were just trying to one-up the Romans. "Oh, so your bearded patriarch God can throw lightning bolts and rules over all gods and humans? Well, OUR bearded patriarch God is super-duper powerful! He's the mostest powerfullest in the whole universe! He's infinity-plus-one powerful!"

It's the comfort aspect. Whatever happens is meant to happen; it's God's will, and God loves us, so we shouldn't worry.

It's the comfort aspect. Whatever happens is meant to happen; it's God's will, and God loves us, so we shouldn't worry.
But then you're left worshipping a God who lets babies die of cancer, who allows rape, who allows cities to be wiped off the map by disasters, who refuses to protect the helpless and allows the wicked to thrive...

Basically, you get the "comfort" of knowing that you're worshipping an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful asshole.

But then you're left worshipping a God who lets babies die of cancer, who allows rape, who allows cities to be wiped off the map by disasters, who refuses to protect the helpless and allows the wicked to thrive...

But that's the point. If those things really were bad, if they were really things to worry about, they wouldn't happen.

They're punishments for sin, or they're tests of our faith, or they're weird imbalances created by our separation from God, or whatever explanation you prefer - but they're tolerated for a reason, even if we don't know it.

Basically, you get the "comfort" of knowing that you're worshipping an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful asshole.

"Beyond human understanding" is the preferred formulation.

But that's the point. If those things really were bad, if they were really things to worry about, they wouldn't happen.

They're punishments for sin, or they're tests of our faith, or they're weird imbalances created by our separation from God, or whatever explanation you prefer - but they're tolerated for a reason, even if we don't know it.

You're still stuck, in that case. To wrap your mind around this, you must accept that a little baby being shaken to death is a "good thing" because God had a reason. You must accept that your step dad raped you for 10 years because you're a sinful person who deserved it. You must accept that the tsunami killed hundreds of thousands of people because an all-powerful God couldn't find any better way to run his planet, or because he WANTED all those people to die horribly.


"Beyond human understanding" is the preferred formulation.
Same bullshit cop-out you hear from domestic abuse victims. "I know he loves me, deep down. You just don't understand our relationship. He hits me because he loves me!"

You're still stuck, in that case. To wrap your mind around this, you must accept that a little baby being shaken to death is a "good thing" because God had a reason. You must accept that your step dad raped you for 10 years because you're a sinful person who deserved it. You must accept that the tsunami killed hundreds of thousands of people because an all-powerful God couldn't find any better way to run his planet, or because he WANTED all those people to die horribly.


Same bullshit cop-out you hear from domestic abuse victims. "I know he loves me, deep down. You just don't understand our relationship. He hits me because he loves me!"

That's the point, though, ain't it? It's the delusion that maybe the world isn't interested in screwing you over, it's just doing so because of something you do, something you can theoretically stop, or at least something that exists for a reason. Many people raped by their step dads for 10 years do believe that it's because they're sinful, it's their fault, etc. It's how abuse works, and it happens even if there isn't a real person doing the abuse. Like how in the Depression people blamed themselves for being unemployed.

Same bullshit cop-out you hear from domestic abuse victims. "I know he loves me, deep down. You just don't understand our relationship. He hits me because he loves me!"

Of course it's a "bullshit cop-out." But to many it's a more comforting answer than "horrible things are random and arbitrary, there's nothing you can do to stop them, and there's no great power you can appeal to to save you."

I've got a tough question that has been on my mind for quite some time about forgiveness.

"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us..."

You see, I've got the impression that forgiveness is a personal thing.
That established, how do I forgive someone that I don't know but who nevertheless comitted a sin against me? I have no sound recollection of the whole incident except for blurred images of memory.

I can't even put a face to the person, let alone a name.

So, what's the trick to solve this problem? It's not that I still bear a huge grudge against that "trespasser" but the incident did have a deep impact on me and my life (which I just got straightened out during the last half year).

Helpful suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I've got a tough question that has been on my mind for quite some time about forgiveness.

"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us..."

You see, I've got the impression that forgiveness is a personal thing.
That established, how do I forgive someone that I don't know but who nevertheless comitted a sin against me? I have no sound recollection of the whole incident except for blurred images of memory.

I can't even put a face to the person, let alone a name.

So, what's the trick to solve this problem? It's not that I still bear a huge grudge against that "trespasser" but the incident did have a deep impact on me and my life (which I just got straightened out during the last half year).

Helpful suggestions are greatly appreciated.

And, in absence of responses from the OP, we transfer to a totally different topic...

Seriously, though, it passes the time. It sounds like, as you don't "bear a huge grudge" anymore, you have already forgiven the person, at least to some extent.

And, in absence of responses from the OP, we transfer to a totally different topic...

Seriously, though, it passes the time. It sounds like, as you don't "bear a huge grudge" anymore, you have already forgiven the person, at least to some extent.
Thanks for the reply. I thought my question would fit in this thread.

True and yet I don't feel completely comfortable with the whole situation. I never really did say something to the extend of "I forgive you" because there is no "you".
I've tried a couple of times to sort of phrase it out "the person who..." but then again it still does carry this incomplete feeling, which really bothers me.

(Let alone the implication of the quote from the Lord's prayer...)

You're still stuck, in that case. To wrap your mind around this, you must accept that a little baby being shaken to death is a "good thing" because God had a reason. You must accept that your step dad raped you for 10 years because you're a sinful person who deserved it. You must accept that the tsunami killed hundreds of thousands of people because an all-powerful God couldn't find any better way to run his planet, or because he WANTED all those people to die horribly.


Same bullshit cop-out you hear from domestic abuse victims. "I know he loves me, deep down. You just don't understand our relationship. He hits me because he loves me!"
Seconded.

Now this helps us understand the issue of why Jesus had to die for us. Because when the king wrote off the servents debts, that left a very large hole in the kings account books. Someone has to pay for that hole. Naturally it is the king himself. In the same way, God, to forgive us our debts (in sin) has to somehow pay for it. He does that in his sons death.


I've never understood this part of Christianititty. Jesus, Dog and the Holy Ghost form the divine trinity which is actually just Dog himself working in different ways with different means. Jesus was only Dog's 'son' insofar as Mary gave birth to a sliver of Dog in human form. He always knew he was going back to heaven, so where was the big whoop? Why start bitching about betrayal while on the cross like you don't know that you've got eternal happiness awaiting? In all of history, Jesus is the only person on earth who's had absolute reason to believe he's going to heaven, yet even he kicks off at Jehovah, or whatever his vanity name is.

So just how much of a 'debt' did Jesus' death actually pay when:

a) He's divinity in human form
b) He overcame death arbitrarily
c) He was only here as an example to humanity
d) God lost nothing in the exchange

I've never understood this part of Christianititty. Jesus, Dog and the Holy Ghost form the divine trinity which is actually just Dog himself working in different ways with different means. Jesus was only Dog's 'son' insofar as Mary gave birth to a sliver of Dog in human form. He always knew he was going back to heaven, so where was the big whoop? Why start bitching about betrayal while on the cross like you don't know that you've got eternal happiness awaiting? In all of history, Jesus is the only person on earth who's had absolute reason to believe he's going to heaven, yet even he kicks off at Jehovah, or whatever his vanity name is.

So just how much of a 'debt' did Jesus' death actually pay when:

a) He's divinity in human form
b) He overcame death arbitrarily
c) He was only here as an example to humanity
d) God lost nothing in the exchange
Again, seconded. *bows*

Hey this might not make sense to you guys but

1, The Bible says that there is no forgiveness of sins without the sacrifice of blood. For the wages of sin is death.

Sin demands a death penalty and the reason why it was Jesus who had to die for our sins was because He was the only one born without sin and lived without sin and totally yielded to the Fathers will. His blood payed for our sins because he was perfect and lived without sin. Just as one mans sin (adam) brought us all under condemnation, the perfect sacrifice (Jesus) is able to free us from all sin. It was Jesus choice (Hebrews 12:2) to die on the Cross. He did it out of love for each person.

And the reason why bad stuff happens is because we lived in a stuffed up world. God never promised a perfect life here on earth but He did promise to restore all things one day (Judgement Day) Bad stuff happens because the world is under sin and people act out of sinful desires. I dont pretend to have a reason for why God allows it to happen, but I do know that there will be justice in the end.

Jesus never 'bitched' about betrayal on the Cross, if u look at the Bible it actually says He prayed for those who were hammering the nails into his body and those who were cursing and spitting on Him saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". He was praying for the ones who were killing Him. If u are referring to His statement of "My God My God why have u forsaken me?" then ill do my bst to explain.

There is a prophecy in the Book of Psalms (Psalm 22) which start of as "My God my God why have u forsaken me" which then goes on to basically explain the whole crucifixion scene. Every Jew back then would of known that Psalm off by heart. When Jesus cried that out it prob would of triggered their memory and they would recount that Psalm, seeing that very prophecy coming into fulfillment (it was written a few thousand years b4 Jesus by David).

Also, with all the worlds sin being placed on Jesus as He was the sacrifice, for the first time in His life He would have been removed from His Fathers Presence and been all alone. Also, it shows how as He was forsaken by God at that time, we no longer must be forsaken by God for our sins if we choose to turn away from them and recieve His forgiveness, making him our Lord and Master.

Hope that helped...

Hey this might not make sense to you guys but

1, The Bible says that there is no forgiveness of sins without the sacrifice of blood. For the wages of sin is death.

Sin demands a death penalty and the reason why it was Jesus who had to die for our sins was because He was the only one born without sin and lived without sin and totally yielded to the Fathers will. His blood payed for our sins because he was perfect and lived without sin. Just as one mans sin (adam) brought us all under condemnation, the perfect sacrifice (Jesus) is able to free us from all sin. It was Jesus choice (Hebrews 12:2) to die on the Cross. He did it out of love for each person.

And the reason why bad stuff happens is because we lived in a stuffed up world. God never promised a perfect life here on earth but He did promise to restore all things one day (Judgement Day) Bad stuff happens because the world is under sin and people act out of sinful desires. I dont pretend to have a reason for why God allows it to happen, but I do know that there will be justice in the end.

Jesus never 'bitched' about betrayal on the Cross, if u look at the Bible it actually says He prayed for those who were hammering the nails into his body and those who were cursing and spitting on Him saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". He was praying for the ones who were killing Him. If u are referring to His statement of "My God My God why have u forsaken me?" then ill do my bst to explain.

There is a prophecy in the Book of Psalms (Psalm 22) which start of as "My God my God why have u forsaken me" which then goes on to basically explain the whole crucifixion scene. Every Jew back then would of known that Psalm off by heart. When Jesus cried that out it prob would of triggered their memory and they would recount that Psalm, seeing that very prophecy coming into fulfillment (it was written a few thousand years b4 Jesus by David).

Also, with all the worlds sin being placed on Jesus as He was the sacrifice, for the first time in His life He would have been removed from His Fathers Presence and been all alone. Also, it shows how as He was forsaken by God at that time, we no longer must be forsaken by God for our sins if we choose to turn away from them and recieve His forgiveness, making him our Lord and Master.

Hope that helped...
Actually, you posted in a nice and respectful manner, for which i commend you ... before a few of the other posters here quite likely swarm on you.
Perhaps you can qualify that part about the Psalm/David/Eloi eloi lama sabachthani?

Before I continue to the main thrust of what I would like to explain here, I should first like to establish what this discussion is NOT about. It is not about whether or not God exists, whether or not Jesus existed or any of the apoligetic questions regarding the validity of the Christian faith.

Is that really fair?
Ultimately, anything regarding God, and why things are the way they are boils down to wether or not there is any god at all.


What it is about is a question that is repeadly asked of the logic of the Christian faith which I intend to answer.

Heh, you used "Logic" and "Christian Faith" in the same sentence.
Thats bold.
Carry on...




A question often asked of myself, and other Christians, is something along the lines of "Why did Jesus have to die to save us? Could'nt God have just forgiven us anyway".

If God is truly omnipotent, then the answer cannot be anything other than YES, God could have done anything he wanted to.

However, lets use your parable and assume that consequences do indeed have prices to be paid, and God demands his pound of flesh.

So, to forgive mankind of thier greivous sins of being born, wich surely is the one that damns him from the very start,(Original Sin, anyone?) God demanded the blood of his only Son, who just so happens to be the Messiah, and the teacher of a peaceful way.
In the Christians eyes, Jesus was the finest gift ever given to humanity.

So God takes that way, in exchange for something you had no control over.

Thats fair?



Forgiveness is at the very heart of what it means to be a Christian

Is it really?

Then why is Christianity, and its followers so quick to judge others lifestyles, religions, political views, etc?
It would seem as though they ought to be the FIRST to forgive any trespass, no matter how great.
Yet, we cannot deny that the opposite is true, and Christians are second only to radical Muslims in thier rabid ferocity.

It is this kind of hippocracy that makes Christianity very hard to swallow for millions of people.

Actually it's not God's fault.

The Worldbank and the IMF forced him into this system.

Even God is powerless against them.


no he's not

Of course it's a "bullshit cop-out." But to many it's a more comforting answer than "horrible things are random and arbitrary, there's nothing you can do to stop them, and there's no great power you can appeal to to save you."
Who the hell says that? I'd say it's a lot more like, "We can control much of what goes on in our lives, but there is also much that is beyond our control. Choosing to believe in God will not in any way stop random bad things from occuring in your life, it will just force you to believe that your pain was specifically selected by a Creator-being who has decided you deserve it."

Then why is Christianity, and its followers so quick to judge others lifestyles, religions, political views, etc?
It would seem as though they ought to be the FIRST to forgive any trespass, no matter how great.
Yet, we cannot deny that the opposite is true, and Christians are second only to radical Muslims in thier rabid ferocity.

It is this kind of hippocracy that makes Christianity very hard to swallow for millions of people

Hey, you're judging millions of christians you've never even met by assuming they're all crazed zealots. (Although I must admit I like the phrase "rabid ferocity.")

I've got a tough question that has been on my mind for quite some time about forgiveness.

"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us..."

You see, I've got the impression that forgiveness is a personal thing.
That established, how do I forgive someone that I don't know but who nevertheless comitted a sin against me? I have no sound recollection of the whole incident except for blurred images of memory.

I can't even put a face to the person, let alone a name.

So, what's the trick to solve this problem? It's not that I still bear a huge grudge against that "trespasser" but the incident did have a deep impact on me and my life (which I just got straightened out during the last half year).

Helpful suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Why should forgiveness be restricted to only those whom you recognise or know?

Would you say that knowing the person would make it easier to forgive them? Or what part does knowledge of the transgressor play in the act of forgiveness? It would make it more personal, perhaps.

Consider a situation where a child grew up feeling rejected because he holds the knowledge that his mother rejected him at birth, meaning that he had to grow up in foster homes. I would expect that such a rejection would have had a huge impact on the child, and the child would possibly face the decision of whether to forgive his mother (perhaps he has no recollections of her) that he did not know. Forgiveness is still possible, because it does not require any participation from the mother (she might have died since from, e.g. a drug overdose). Forgiveness is completely possible without repentence, in this instance.

Then why is Christianity, and its followers so quick to judge others lifestyles, religions, political views, etc?
It would seem as though they ought to be the FIRST to forgive any trespass, no matter how great.
Yet, we cannot deny that the opposite is true, and Christians are second only to radical Muslims in thier rabid ferocity.

It is this kind of hippocracy that makes Christianity very hard to swallow for millions of people

Hey, you're judging millions of christians you've never even met by assuming they're all crazed zealots. (Although I must admit I like the phrase "rabid ferocity.")

Bottle is obviously talking about the millions of rabid christians of whom I have never met.

As for me, however, most of the christians I know would probably consider Bottle as having more rabid ferocity than any christian, judging by her anti-Christian posts.

Bottle is obviously talking about the millions of rabid christians of whom I have never met.

As for me, however, most of the christians I know would probably consider Bottle as having more rabid ferocity than any christian, judging by her anti-Christian posts.
Hey, that wasn't me who was quoted there! It was 'Squatches who said that.

Though I certainly won't argue that I am enthusiastically opposed to Christianity, as I am opposed to all superstitious cults.

Forgiveness is at the very heart of what it means to be a Christian

Is it really?

Then why is Christianity, and its followers so quick to judge others lifestyles, religions, political views, etc?
It would seem as though they ought to be the FIRST to forgive any trespass, no matter how great.
Yet, we cannot deny that the opposite is true, and Christians are second only to radical Muslims in thier rabid ferocity.

It is this kind of hippocracy that makes Christianity very hard to swallow for millions of people.

Christians should be the first to forgive but sadly don't but don't judge the leader by his followers. He said: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

Christians should be the first to forgive but sadly don't but don't judge the leader by his followers. He said: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
I think that "Judge not, lest ye be judged" means something quite different from what most people think. It's not saying, "Don't judge people," it's saying, "If you're going to judge people, which you probably are, then be aware that you are also being judged. If you don't want to be judged, then you'd best not go around judging other people."

Personally, I would hope that people are judging me! You SHOULD judge me, just as you SHOULD judge all other people. Judgment is one of the most marvelous gifts of that huge frontal cortex of yours! USE IT!! In fact, people get into the most trouble when they do use their judgment, but when they instead pronounce an opinion without judging the situation (or the individuals) correctly.

I don't see much of a difference, but OK...

One thing this seems to establish is a sort of sin-currency between God and people, something that must be kept in static supply and can't be printed or destroyed like money can. In effect, it would be a non-inflationary currency. The real question is, is there something that binds God to keep this currency relevant? That makes him have to respect debts, etc? That keeps him from doing what even a nation can, defaulting on his debts? Is God stuck to a gold standard or something? This seems manifestly non-omnipotent.

It could be that God is stuck to a 'gold standard', as you put it. The 'gold standard' would simply be the nature of God. The Christians hold that God is holy, and that not even the slightest sin can have any part in the nature of God. And yet Christians are called to share in the nature of God (if we could understand a mere fraction of what that meant, we would see that this is indeed a very high calling). For this to happen, God has to do something about the sin problem, because the holiness of God (God's 'golden standard') means that sin cannot be simply forgotten, but must be blotted out of the record book.

It just so happens that there is no power sufficient in all of heaven or earth to do this, except for God's own blood.

Hey, that wasn't me who was quoted there! It was 'Squatches who said that.

Though I certainly won't argue that I am enthusiastically opposed to Christianity, as I am opposed to all superstitious cults.

Woops. Sorry. My mistake.

So, what's your 'religion'?

I think that "Judge not, lest ye be judged" means something quite different from what most people think. It's not saying, "Don't judge people," it's saying, "If you're going to judge people, which you probably are, then be aware that you are also being judged. If you don't want to be judged, then you'd best not go around judging other people."

Personally, I would hope that people are judging me! You SHOULD judge me, just as you SHOULD judge all other people. Judgment is one of the most marvelous gifts of that huge frontal cortex of yours! USE IT!! In fact, people get into the most trouble when they do use their judgment, but when they instead pronounce an opinion without judging the situation (or the individuals) correctly.

I think 'judging' means 'condemning', in the context of Jesus' words.

God doesn't exist and we need to focus on using government programs to help the poor in this world, not in so-called heaven.

Woops. Sorry. My mistake.

So, what's your 'religion'?
Depends on how we're defining "religion."

If we're talking about religion as defined as "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe; a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship," then I am not religious. I also do not follow "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."

I think 'judging' means 'condemning', in the context of Jesus' words.
I don't think it's possible to know that. I think it's also very common for people to misinterpret the passage, and to misunderstand what "judging" somebody means. I judge everybody, and I would expect them to judge me as well. I don't see that as a bad thing, and I totally reject the negative connotation that has been given to that word.

so what happened to adriattica? he loved this topic so much that he posted it twice and insisted that THIS is the "right" thread but he cant come back to defend his extremly flawed first post?

i didnt miss the rapture did i?

[/grumpy]

Thanks for the reply. I thought my question would fit in this thread.

True and yet I don't feel completely comfortable with the whole situation. I never really did say something to the extend of "I forgive you" because there is no "you".
I've tried a couple of times to sort of phrase it out "the person who..." but then again it still does carry this incomplete feeling, which really bothers me.

(Let alone the implication of the quote from the Lord's prayer...)

i dont think it makes any sense to forgive someone who doesnt ask you for forgiveness. i dont think you should worry about it until you either figure out who wronged you or that person comes forward and asks for forgiveness. i dont believe that unasked for forgiveness is suggested or required of us religiously speaking.

until then you should be able to find a way to "let it go". depending of course on the severity of the offense and the likelihood that this unknown person is still abusing others. it may require working with a professional but letting go of the hurt and anger would help you very much.

God doesn't exist and we need to focus on using government programs to help the poor in this world, not in so-called heaven.

Part of Jesus message was that you and I should go about doing good, not just create government programs to do it all for us. In other words, we are to BE good, not just create good programs.

And it's not that hard to see that no matter how good a government program is, it cannot make you and I BE good. Of course it might encourage goodness. But the actually moment-by-moment choice to be good depends on your character, not your government.

i dont think it makes any sense to forgive someone who doesnt ask you for forgiveness. i dont think you should worry about it until you either figure out who wronged you or that person comes forward and asks for forgiveness. i dont believe that unasked for forgiveness is suggested or required of us religiously speaking.

What about where Jesus says that unless we forgive our brother, our Father won't forgive us? Doesn't that mean that we ought to forgive our brother, despite the lack of asking for forgiveness by our brother?


until then you should be able to find a way to "let it go". depending of course on the severity of the offense and the likelihood that this unknown person is still abusing others. it may require working with a professional but letting go of the hurt and anger would help you very much.

Perhaps there are only two ways to 'let something go'. One is to excuse it, and come up with a reason why that person did that mean and nasty thing, and to conclude that we might have done the same thing were we in their shoes, etc., etc.

The other way is to forgive.

Otherwise, I'm not sure that we can ever 'let something go'.

Depends on how we're defining "religion."

If we're talking about religion as defined as "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe; a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship," then I am not religious. I also do not follow "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."

OK, so by your definition, you are not religious. But if we were to define 'religion' as a set of beliefs, more or less interchangeably with the term 'world view'?

Or to make it clearer, what is your world view, and what part does forgiveness play in it (or what is forgiveness in your opinion)?


Originally Posted by Bruarong
I think 'judging' means 'condemning', in the context of Jesus' words.


I don't think it's possible to know that. I think it's also very common for people to misinterpret the passage, and to misunderstand what "judging" somebody means. I judge everybody, and I would expect them to judge me as well. I don't see that as a bad thing, and I totally reject the negative connotation that has been given to that word.

So you think judging is a good thing. But aren't you arguing over semantics? Everyone knows that there is a good 'judgement' and a bad 'judgement'. If someone murders his brother, we ought to judge that act as wrong. That sort of judgement is necessary. But condemning a person for his faults is a different thing altogether. Personally, I see a huge difference between condemning an action and condemning a person for that action.

Possibly what we should be discussing on this thread is 'judgement' in relation to forgiveness.

OK, so by your definition, you are not religious. But if we were to define 'religion' as a set of beliefs, more or less interchangeably with the term 'world view'?

Or to make it clearer, what is your world view, and what part does forgiveness play in it (or what is forgiveness in your opinion)?

Whew, what is my world view...that's a loooooooooong post. In the context of this discussion, the short answer is that I don't believe there is any way for me to know whether or not God (or any other supernatural beings/forces) exists, let alone to evaluate any properties that God might have. Thus, my value system exists independent of whether or not there really is a God, gods or whathaveyou.

Forgiveness has kind of a neutral place in my worldview. I believe that, at times, forgiveness will enable an individual to be happier, possibly more productive, and may allow for greater psychological stability. At other times, I believe forgiveness can be inappropriate, and even potentially dangerous depending on how the individual views it. I don't think one can categorically state that forgiveness is always a good thing, though I would be willing to go along with the assertion that it is a positive thing more often than not.


So you think judging is a good thing. But aren't you arguing over semantics? Everyone knows that there is a good 'judgement' and a bad 'judgement'. If someone murders his brother, we ought to judge that act as wrong. That sort of judgement is necessary. But condemning a person for his faults is a different thing altogether. Personally, I see a huge difference between condemning an action and condemning a person for that action.

I don't think I'm the one playing with semantics. I think judging is always a good thing, but condemnation may not be. Exercising one's judgment is always wise, in my opinion, though human beings (being finite, falible creatures) may sometimes reach incorrect conclusions even when they exercise good judgment.

The action that you take based on your judgments is a totally separate subject. For instance, I believe it is always appropriate to judge how others are treating you. However, there are a variety of actions you might take after judging that somebody is mistreating you, and I don't think all of those actions are equally helpful or good for you.


Possibly what we should be discussing on this thread is 'judgement' in relation to forgiveness.
I don't think it is possible to forgive somebody in any meaningful way unless you have judged them and their actions.

There was once a bridge that spanned a large river. During most of the day the bridge sat with its length running up and down the river paralleled with the banks, allowing ships to pass through freely on both sides of the bridge. But at certain times each day, a train would come along and the bridge would be turned sideways across the river, allowing the train to cross it.

A switchman sat in a shack on one side of the river where he operated the controls to turn the bridge and lock it into place as the train crossed.

One evening as the switchman was waiting for the last train of the day to come, he looked off into the distance through the dimming twilight and caught sight of the train lights. He stepped onto the control and waited until the train was within a prescribed distance. Then he was to turn the bridge. He turned the bridge into position, but, to his horror, he found the locking control did not work. If the bridge was not securely in position, it would cause the train to jump the track and go crashing into the river. This would be a passenger train with MANY people aboard.

He left the bridge turned across the river and hurried across the bridge to the other side of the river, where there was a lever switch he could hold to operate the lock manually.

He would have to hold the lever back firmly as the train crossed. He could hear the rumble of the train now, and he took hold of the lever and leaned backward to apply his weight to it, locking the bridge. He kept applying the pressure to keep the mechanism locked. Many lives depended on this man's strength.

Then, coming across the bridge from the direction of his control shack, he heard a sound that made his blood run cold.

"Daddy, where are you?" His four-year-old son was crossing the bridge to look for him. His first impulse was to cry out to the child, "Run! Run!" But the train was too close; the tiny legs would never make it across the bridge in time..

The man almost left his lever to snatch up his son and carry him to safety. But he realized that he could not get back to the lever in time if he saved his son.

Either many people on the train or his own son - must die.

He took but a moment to make his decision. The train sped safely and swiftly on its way, and no one aboard was even aware of the tiny broken body thrown mercilessly into the river by the on rushing train. Nor were they aware of the pitiful figure of the sobbing man, still clinging to the locking lever long after the train had passed. They did not see him walking home more slowly than he had ever walked; to tell his wife how their son had brutally died.

Now, if you comprehend the emotions that went through this man's heart, you can begin to understand the feelings of Our Father in Heaven when He sacrificed His Son to bridge the gap between us and eternal life.

Can there be any wonder that He caused the earth to tremble and the skies to darken when His Son died? How does He feel when we speed along through life without giving a thought to what was done for us through Jesus Christ?

Whew, what is my world view...that's a loooooooooong post. In the context of this discussion, the short answer is that I don't believe there is any way for me to know whether or not God (or any other supernatural beings/forces) exists, let alone to evaluate any properties that God might have. Thus, my value system exists independent of whether or not there really is a God, gods or whathaveyou.

How do you know that there is no way to know if God (or anything supernatural) exists?


Forgiveness has kind of a neutral place in my worldview. I believe that, at times, forgiveness will enable an individual to be happier, possibly more productive, and may allow for greater psychological stability. At other times, I believe forgiveness can be inappropriate, and even potentially dangerous depending on how the individual views it. I don't think one can categorically state that forgiveness is always a good thing, though I would be willing to go along with the assertion that it is a positive thing more often than not.


What is an example of a situation where it is wrong to forgive?


I don't think I'm the one playing with semantics. I think judging is always a good thing, but condemnation may not be. Exercising one's judgment is always wise, in my opinion, though human beings (being finite, falible creatures) may sometimes reach incorrect conclusions even when they exercise good judgment.


I don't think judging is always a good thing. An example is a situation where a person doesn't know enough (and realizes this) to make a careful judgment. When someone treats a stranger as a bad person, simply because he is a stranger, the judgment is based on ignorance (a stranger is unknown) and an unfair assumption (all strangers are different, and therefore bad). In the case of dealing with a stranger, the only sensible judgment would be to withhold judgment, if that can be called a judgment.



The action that you take based on your judgments is a totally separate subject. For instance, I believe it is always appropriate to judge how others are treating you. However, there are a variety of actions you might take after judging that somebody is mistreating you, and I don't think all of those actions are equally helpful or good for you.


It cannot be a totally separate subject, since judgment and action is related through a cause/effect relationship. If you judge that someone hates you (e.g. your parent) because they are punishing you, that judgment may well be wrong, and thus a bad judgment. Your choice to run away from your parent, based on that judgment, is not necessarily wrong. However, if you judge that your parent loves you and is trying to do what is best for you, running away may be wrong.
Thus, your action will always be related to your judgment.


I don't think it is possible to forgive somebody in any meaningful way unless you have judged them and their actions.

I agree.

How do you know that there is no way to know if God (or anything supernatural) exists?

Because my consciousness exists within the natural realm, and those things which exist outside the natural realm (i.e. those things which are supernatural) can never be proven according to the laws of the natural realm. Like all humans, I am not capable of knowing whether or not supernatural things exist, though I could believe in supernatural things for any number of reasons.


What is an example of a situation where it is wrong to forgive?

In my opinion, it would be unwise to excuse many different offenses, such as a pattern of abusive behavior. I think there are many situations in which absolving an individual from payment (an alternative definition of "forgiveness") would be inappropriate.


I don't think judging is always a good thing. An example is a situation where a person doesn't know enough (and realizes this) to make a careful judgment.

Judgment is still good in that situation. You judge based on the information you have, resulting in an educated hypothesis, but you acknowledge that you don't have all the information and you include that factor in your judgment.


When someone treats a stranger as a bad person, simply because he is a stranger, the judgment is based on ignorance (a stranger is unknown) and an unfair assumption (all strangers are different, and therefore bad).

That would be an example of an incorrect conclusion reached through incorrect premises. It's not the judgment that is flawed, it's the assumptions.


In the case of dealing with a stranger, the only sensible judgment would be to withhold judgment, if that can be called a judgment.

Hardly. With a stranger, you can make all sorts of evaluations from the moment you meet. Your judgments should expand and continue for as long as you have contact with somebody, and should be refined as you learn more.


It cannot be a totally separate subject, since judgment and action is related through a cause/effect relationship. If you judge that someone hates you (e.g. your parent) because they are punishing you, that judgment may well be wrong, and thus a bad judgment.

I don't really think it's a "bad" judgment, just an incorrect one. Sometimes all the information that we have will point to a particular conclusion, but we don't have all the information. That doesn't mean that judging is bad, it just means that judgment opperates within limitations.


Your choice to run away from your parent, based on that judgment, is not necessarily wrong. However, if you judge that your parent loves you and is trying to do what is best for you, running away may be wrong.

Whether or not running away is "wrong" depends on a whole lot more than if your parents hate you. There could be a situation in which your parents do, in fact, hate you, but in which it would not be prudent for you to run away. Conversely, there are plenty of situations in which you parents might love you, but in which it still would be wise to run away. You should judge each issue individually.


Thus, your action will always be related to your judgment.

I wish that human actions were always related to judgment, but, sadly, I do not believe this is the case.

What about where Jesus says that unless we forgive our brother, our Father won't forgive us? Doesn't that mean that we ought to forgive our brother, despite the lack of asking for forgiveness by our brother?

we are told to ASK god for forgiveness. if we ask, we shall receive. in the same way if our brother asks us for forgiveness we are told we should forgive him. is there a parable where forgiveness is given without being requested? none pop to mind but then im not much of a biblical scholar so there may be. if you can think of one, ill read it and see if i agree with your interpretation.


Perhaps there are only two ways to 'let something go'. One is to excuse it, and come up with a reason why that person did that mean and nasty thing, and to conclude that we might have done the same thing were we in their shoes, etc., etc.

The other way is to forgive.

Otherwise, I'm not sure that we can ever 'let something go'.

no. you dont have to excuse any bad thing that happens to you. you dont have to ever think it was a reasonable thing to do or that you would have done it in the same circumstances. thats just SICK

when you have been abused by someone in the past but you dont know who it was you cant confront them, you cant put yourself in their place and you cant forgive them. there is no one to forgive. since you dont know the totality of what you are forgiving, your forgiveness would be a sham anyway.

what a person in a circumstance like this CAN do is enter therapy. with a therapist he can explore what he remembers of what happened, get some perspective on it (meaning understand that he really was blameless) and come to a place where this abuse isnt currently hurting him psychologically any more. he can put it behind him in the same way he can put behind him that bad car accident that left him hospitalized for a month. it doesnt mean it didnt happen, it just means it doesnt hurt any more.

There was once a bridge that spanned a large river. During most of the day the bridge sat with its length running up and down the river paralleled with the banks, allowing ships to pass through freely on both sides of the bridge. But at certain times each day, a train would come along and the bridge would be turned sideways across the river, allowing the train to cross it.

A switchman sat in a shack on one side of the river where he operated the controls to turn the bridge and lock it into place as the train crossed.

One evening as the switchman was waiting for the last train of the day to come, he looked off into the distance through the dimming twilight and caught sight of the train lights. He stepped onto the control and waited until the train was within a prescribed distance. Then he was to turn the bridge. He turned the bridge into position, but, to his horror, he found the locking control did not work. If the bridge was not securely in position, it would cause the train to jump the track and go crashing into the river. This would be a passenger train with MANY people aboard.

He left the bridge turned across the river and hurried across the bridge to the other side of the river, where there was a lever switch he could hold to operate the lock manually.

He would have to hold the lever back firmly as the train crossed. He could hear the rumble of the train now, and he took hold of the lever and leaned backward to apply his weight to it, locking the bridge. He kept applying the pressure to keep the mechanism locked. Many lives depended on this man's strength.

Then, coming across the bridge from the direction of his control shack, he heard a sound that made his blood run cold.

"Daddy, where are you?" His four-year-old son was crossing the bridge to look for him. His first impulse was to cry out to the child, "Run! Run!" But the train was too close; the tiny legs would never make it across the bridge in time..

The man almost left his lever to snatch up his son and carry him to safety. But he realized that he could not get back to the lever in time if he saved his son.

Either many people on the train or his own son - must die.

He took but a moment to make his decision. The train sped safely and swiftly on its way, and no one aboard was even aware of the tiny broken body thrown mercilessly into the river by the on rushing train. Nor were they aware of the pitiful figure of the sobbing man, still clinging to the locking lever long after the train had passed. They did not see him walking home more slowly than he had ever walked; to tell his wife how their son had brutally died.

Now, if you comprehend the emotions that went through this man's heart, you can begin to understand the feelings of Our Father in Heaven when He sacrificed His Son to bridge the gap between us and eternal life.

Can there be any wonder that He caused the earth to tremble and the skies to darken when His Son died? How does He feel when we speed along through life without giving a thought to what was done for us through Jesus Christ?

god had a wife?

its an allorgy

its an allorgy
ya


well

about that


its not a very GOOD allegory

it would be better (though still far from perfect) if instead of switch man, god had been the president of the train company, that he had knowingly made the rail bridge with a huge design flaw that would dump a certain number of trains into the river no matter what, and that he did nothing to fix this flaw. then one day his son got sick of seeing the dead bodies in the river and so he went to fix the bridge. the only way it could be fixed in time to prevent the next train from plunging to its destruction cost him his life. then the president of the company used his son's death to increase ridership.

it would be better (though still far from perfect) if instead of switch man, god had been the president of the train company, that he had knowingly made the rail bridge with a huge design flaw that would dump a certain number of trains into the river no matter what, and that he did nothing to fix this flaw. then one day his son got sick of seeing the dead bodies in the river and so he went to fix the bridge. the only way it could be fixed in time to prevent the next train from plunging to its destruction cost him his life. then the president of the company used his son's death to increase ridership.

The 'Huge design flaw' you refer to, does not exist. Humans were perfect. But that does not mean the perfection is invincible. If I were to design the most perfect vase in the world, does that then mean that if the vase were subjected to an intense artilliary bombardment that it would suvive? Of course not. Humans were given free will by God becuase he wanted them to be able to love him, and love, by definition, requires a choice. It is impossible to compell love from someone, only fear. You could shower someone with gifts and blessings, do everything for their good that they could possibly want and they may still not love you. Love is nothing without the ability not to love. And so we chose not to love God and that created problems. So God did something to help solve that.

Because my consciousness exists within the natural realm, and those things which exist outside the natural realm (i.e. those things which are supernatural) can never be proven according to the laws of the natural realm. Like all humans, I am not capable of knowing whether or not supernatural things exist, though I could believe in supernatural things for any number of reasons.

How do you know that your consciousness exists within the natural realm? What is the natural realm anyway, and how do you know that the supernatural exists outside of this natural realm?

How do you know that the supernatural can never be proven? And why do you say that humans are not capable of knowing whether the supernatural exists? On what basis?

All these questions, Bottle. I have them because your posts are not answering the why. You are telling me what you believe, which is fine, but I am also curious about the reasons for your belief.


In my opinion, it would be unwise to excuse many different offenses, such as a pattern of abusive behavior. I think there are many situations in which absolving an individual from payment (an alternative definition of "forgiveness") would be inappropriate.


I wouldn't excuse a pattern of abusive behaviour, perhaps, but there is a huge difference between excusing and forgiving. If I forgive someone, it is because I cannot excuse them.


Judgment is still good in that situation. You judge based on the information you have, resulting in an educated hypothesis, but you acknowledge that you don't have all the information and you include that factor in your judgment.


If you decide to make a judgment while being too lazy to find out the information first, you have made a bad decision.


That would be an example of an incorrect conclusion reached through incorrect premises. It's not the judgment that is flawed, it's the assumptions.


I don't really see much of a difference here. An incorrect conclusion is an incorrect judgment.


Hardly. With a stranger, you can make all sorts of evaluations from the moment you meet. Your judgments should expand and continue for as long as you have contact with somebody, and should be refined as you learn more.


If you judge a stranger as being bad simply because he is different, I would call that poor judgment. But we might be getting tangled up in semantics here.


I don't really think it's a "bad" judgment, just an incorrect one. Sometimes all the information that we have will point to a particular conclusion, but we don't have all the information. That doesn't mean that judging is bad, it just means that judgment opperates within limitations.


There is a big difference between judging within your limits of knowledge and judging in spite of your limits of knowledge.



I wish that human actions were always related to judgment, but, sadly, I do not believe this is the case.

I suppose actions are not always related to judgment, although that could depend on your definition of the word 'judgment'.

The 'Huge design flaw' you refer to, does not exist. Humans were perfect. But that does not mean the perfection is invincible. If I were to design the most perfect vase in the world, does that then mean that if the vase were subjected to an intense artilliary bombardment that it would suvive? Of course not. Humans were given free will by God becuase he wanted them to be able to love him, and love, by definition, requires a choice. It is impossible to compell love from someone, only fear. You could shower someone with gifts and blessings, do everything for their good that they could possibly want and they may still not love you. Love is nothing without the ability not to love. And so we chose not to love God and that created problems. So God did something to help solve that.
well if that helps you sleep at night, i guess its worth the delusion

to me it makes no sense to say that because eve ate the apple suddenly techtonic plates developed in the earth's crust that caused the recent tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people. just to use one vivid example of how hugely flawed the earth is.

we are told to ASK god for forgiveness. if we ask, we shall receive. in the same way if our brother asks us for forgiveness we are told we should forgive him. is there a parable where forgiveness is given without being requested? none pop to mind but then im not much of a biblical scholar so there may be. if you can think of one, ill read it and see if i agree with your interpretation.

The parable of the prodigal son comes to mind. Before the son had a chance to ask, the father came running.......



no. you dont have to excuse any bad thing that happens to you. you dont have to ever think it was a reasonable thing to do or that you would have done it in the same circumstances. thats just SICK

I think it is possible to excuse some bad things that happen to you. For example, someone stole my car and my wallet (which I stupidly left in my car). Turns out that I knew the fellow, and that he had a serious drug addiction problem (I didn't know it at the time). He did a bad thing to me, but this is a situation in which I choose to forgive him. (He stole another car and killed himself with it, poor chap.) I forgive him for doing the wrong thing to me, even when he knew it was wrong. But take another situation in which a woman drove her car into my parked car (she just didn't see me, perhaps she was temporarily blinded by sunlight reflecting from a window, or just distracted by her screaming child in the back seat). I don't forgive her (because it wasn't necessary), but I did excuse her, because I know that mistakes like this one happen all the time, simply because we humans are finite creatures that frequently make mistakes. I may well make a similar mistake on my way to work tomorrow.


when you have been abused by someone in the past but you dont know who it was you cant confront them, you cant put yourself in their place and you cant forgive them. there is no one to forgive. since you dont know the totality of what you are forgiving, your forgiveness would be a sham anyway.

Rubbish. I can forgive the kid who abused my wife (when she was a kid), even though I have never met him, and even if it means that I also suffer because I love my wife. I don't particularly care if I meet him, but I can say that I chose to forgive him.

(She has also chosen to forgive him, but that is different because she can remember him.)


what a person in a circumstance like this CAN do is enter therapy. with a therapist he can explore what he remembers of what happened, get some perspective on it (meaning understand that he really was blameless) and come to a place where this abuse isnt currently hurting him psychologically any more. he can put it behind him in the same way he can put behind him that bad car accident that left him hospitalized for a month. it doesnt mean it didnt happen, it just means it doesnt hurt any more.

Therapy can be a good thing, but it makes a poor substitute for genuine forgiveness. But both together can work wonders.

I don't see much of a difference, but OK...

One thing this seems to establish is a sort of sin-currency between God and people, something that must be kept in static supply and can't be printed or destroyed like money can. In effect, it would be a non-inflationary currency. The real question is, is there something that binds God to keep this currency relevant? That makes him have to respect debts, etc? That keeps him from doing what even a nation can, defaulting on his debts? Is God stuck to a gold standard or something? This seems manifestly non-omnipotent.

Something like that. The Anselmian theory of atonment, from which Adriatica's argument seems to be directly drawn, sets up sin as a kind of debt to God - one that must be repayed, generally with death. However, by the time Anselm proposed his ideas, the Catholic Church had a well-developed (if non-scriptural) penance system. In order to be absolved of one's sins, one needed to do penance. One could even do penance for other people - for instance, you could do penance to get your grandmother out of purgatory faster.

From this system of penance, Anselm drew his theory of atonment - one which nearly every organized Christian church now teaches in some form. Anselm posited that Christ, being divine and sinless, created an infinite amount of penance when he allowed himself to be killed. Believers can draw upon this penance to be absolved. The price of sin is death, but Christ died an infinite death which we can now draw upon.

It doesn't really amount to a "static amount of currency", but it is a "currency" of sorts. What so few people know is that the idea wasn't really present in the early church - the description of salvation as it is now used came quite a bit after. IIRC, Anselm lived in the 1200's or so. Most people also do not know how much the very idea relies upon the penance system - something most churches have now rejected.

Edit: I checked, he lived from about 1033 to 1109 - so I was about a century late. =)

If I was religious my question would be: "I haven't done anything to god, why should I be begging for forgiveness?"

The idea of forgiveness is the Catholic safety blanket. A said attempt to cover up the truth, which is that no human can follow all the rules set out in the bible. People probably asked why God would make rules that are obviously impossible to follow. The solution was that the rules don't have to be followed, as long as one feels bad about it afterwards, and confesses his or her sexual deviance to a horny old man.

The idea of forgiveness is the Catholic safety blanket. A said attempt to cover up the truth, which is that no human can follow all the rules set out in the bible. People probably asked why God would make rules that are obviously impossible to follow. The solution was that the rules don't have to be followed, as long as one feels bad about it afterwards, and confesses his or her sexual deviance to a horny old man.
The built-in guilt also gives God an excuse for His total and utter failure to behave responsibly toward His creations. He beats us because we're naughty. He punishes us because we're icky bad sinful and we deserve it.

The parable of the prodigal son comes to mind. Before the son had a chance to ask, the father came running.......

doesnt do it for me since the P-son showed up in person to ask forgiveness.


I think it is possible to excuse some bad things that happen to you. For example, someone stole my car and my wallet (which I stupidly left in my car). Turns out that I knew the fellow, and that he had a serious drug addiction problem (I didn't know it at the time). He did a bad thing to me, but this is a situation in which I choose to forgive him. (He stole another car and killed himself with it, poor chap.) I forgive him for doing the wrong thing to me, even when he knew it was wrong. But take another situation in which a woman drove her car into my parked car (she just didn't see me, perhaps she was temporarily blinded by sunlight reflecting from a window, or just distracted by her screaming child in the back seat). I don't forgive her (because it wasn't necessary), but I did excuse her, because I know that mistakes like this one happen all the time, simply because we humans are finite creatures that frequently make mistakes. I may well make a similar mistake on my way to work tomorrow.

you chose not to keep the anger in either of those situations. the man who stole you car wasnt even repentant. he didnt want your forgiveness.

in my mind forgiveness is a process where one person admits doing wrong and asks to be forgiven, the other person receives the acknowledgement of having been done wrong and agrees to forgive. without both parties participating the act of forgiveness is hollow.

its good to not keep the anger at someone who was out of control and ended up killing himself with his bad behavior. its not the same as having him be able to come to you and apologize.

in the case of an accident, it would be a bit crazy of you to hold onto it as if she had hurt you on purpose. surely she apologized profusely for her error and surely you told her (in so many words) that you forgave her for it.


Rubbish. I can forgive the kid who abused my wife (when she was a kid), even though I have never met him, and even if it means that I also suffer because I love my wife. I don't particularly care if I meet him, but I can say that I chose to forgive him.

(She has also chosen to forgive him, but that is different because she can remember him.)

its not your place to forgive him. he didnt wrong you in any way. its good of you to not keep the anger you rightfully feel at his abuse of your wife when she was a child.

she might find (and im not saying its true since i dont know her) that if she met him again and he threw the abuse in her face as her own fault that she hadnt forgiven him as much as she thinks she has. without his admitting he did her wrong forgiveness is hollow. its good for her to not keep that hurt in her heart but incomplete without his regretting it too.


Therapy can be a good thing, but it makes a poor substitute for genuine forgiveness. But both together can work wonders.
therapy can save your life.

it would be great if whoever abused GN would come forward, admit it, regret it, ask for forgiveness and GN be able to look him in the eye and truly forgive him for it. in the absense of that, coming to a place where he can acknowledge that something bad happened to him but it doesnt make him any less of a person for it can help him let go of all the destructive feelings he has about it. therapy can put him in a place where he CAN forgive whoever did it should he ever get the chance to do so.

but in any case, religiously speaking, i see no evidence that we are commanded to forgive anyone who doesnt request forgiveness. god doesnt forgive those who dont ask for it. isnt that the point of asking him to "forgive us our tresspasses"?

Bump. This is the full thread people. Discuss here
Which sins, if any, are unforgivable?

Which sins, if any, are unforgivable?


I have only heard of one, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirity. Some say suicide, but I don't buy into that one.

I have only heard of one, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirity. Some say suicide, but I don't buy into that one.

Well, one obviously cannot confess after suicide.

Well, one obviously cannot confess after suicide.


But there is a problem with that; no where have I read in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that suicide is a sin. In fact, only in the Qur'an I have seen that.

But there is a problem with that; no where have I read in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that suicide is a sin. In fact, only in the Qur'an I have seen that.

I have no clue. I haven't read any of the scriptures.

But there is a problem with that; no where have I read in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that suicide is a sin. In fact, only in the Qur'an I have seen that.
in the catholic church it falls firmly under "thou shalt not kill".

protestant churches remain, as ever, a mystery to me.

But there is a problem with that; no where have I read in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that suicide is a sin. In fact, only in the Qur'an I have seen that.
Please note, I am not Christian, nor am I a Biblical scholar. But there are a couple of passages which, I'm told, make it clear that suicide is a sin.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God&'s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Also, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" could obviously be interpretted to include one's own life.

Please note, I am not Christian, nor am I a Biblical scholar. But there are a couple of passages which, I'm told, make it clear that suicide is a sin.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God&'s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Also, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" could obviously be interpretted to include one's own life.


The passages about the temples can mean a great number of things, such as saying don't smoke, take drugs, cut yourself, etc... It never once says anywhere in the scripture that taking one's life is a sin. In fact, did not samson take his own life? by collapsing something, but it was to save a person/people(i forget the whole story). As for the the "thou shalt not kill" I believe that refers to causing death upon another Human.

I have a question though. What exactly is blasphemy of the holy spirit, and when does it occur?

I have only heard of one, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirity. Some say suicide, but I don't buy into that one.

From my understanding, it depends on why. Supposing for instance that you knew the whereabouts of Jewish safehouses during the Holocaust, had been captured by the Nazis, and were facing torture you did not think you could withstand. In that case, I'm not sure there is a priest alive who wouldn't excuse you if you happened to stuff a sock down your own windpipe. Likewise, if you had a clear history of mental illness and acted out of that, I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church would be willing to make a post-mortem blessing of the body.

From my understanding, it depends on why. Supposing for instance that you knew the whereabouts of Jewish safehouses during the Holocaust, had been captured by the Nazis, and were facing torture you did not think you could withstand. In that case, I'm not sure there is a priest alive who wouldn't excuse you if you happened to stuff a sock down your own windpipe. Likewise, if you had a clear history of mental illness and acted out of that, I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church would be willing to make a post-mortem blessing of the body.


Is this thread about the catholic point of view? Did i miss that part. I was speaking soley from my protestant point of view.

The built-in guilt also gives God an excuse for His total and utter failure to behave responsibly toward His creations. He beats us because we're naughty. He punishes us because we're icky bad sinful and we deserve it.
Well, of course ...

21:3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
21:4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
21:5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.


..stacked.

Who the hell says that? I'd say it's a lot more like, "We can control much of what goes on in our lives, but there is also much that is beyond our control. Choosing to believe in God will not in any way stop random bad things from occuring in your life, it will just force you to believe that your pain was specifically selected by a Creator-being who has decided you deserve it."

Except we tend not to be as concerned about the things we can control as about the things we can't, and it's still more comfortable to assume that there's a powerful being who will do for us what we don't want to do than to believe that we actually have to do it ourselves.

There is a prophecy in the Book of Psalms (Psalm 22) which start of as "My God my God why have u forsaken me" which then goes on to basically explain the whole crucifixion scene. Every Jew back then would of known that Psalm off by heart. When Jesus cried that out it prob would of triggered their memory and they would recount that Psalm, seeing that very prophecy coming into fulfillment (it was written a few thousand years b4 Jesus by David).

Also, with all the worlds sin being placed on Jesus as He was the sacrifice, for the first time in His life He would have been removed from His Fathers Presence and been all alone. Also, it shows how as He was forsaken by God at that time, we no longer must be forsaken by God for our sins if we choose to turn away from them and recieve His forgiveness, making him our Lord and Master.

Hope that helped...

Hey I was asked to clarify this point that I made...

What I meant was "back in the day" lol, most Jews would of memorised the Psalms. When Jesus was on the Cross He cried out

46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[ (Matt 27:46 NIV)

The words "My God, my God why have you forsaken me" are the beginning of Psalm 22

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning? Psalm 22:1 NIV

You know how when some1 says one line of a song that you know, it triggers the rest of the song? Well for the Jews standing there, it would of triggered the rest of Psalm 22 and they would of gone through it.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me [b] in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Psalm 22 NIV

I have underlined the things which were playing out right in front of the people watching the crucifixion. This Psalm was written thousands of years b4 Christ. It was and is considered a prophecy of the Messiah. Here are some verses from the Gospels which fulfill the underlinded verses

39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

Matt 27:39-44

28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." John 19:28

31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"[ John 19:31-36 (The fullfillment of prophecy comes from a number of scriptures, one being Psalm 34:20)

24And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.

25It was the third hour when they crucified him. Mark 15:24-25

20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." John 20:20,25

When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.

24"Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."[a] So this is what the soldiers did. John 19:23-24

there we go, hope the clarified my point lol...

Hey I was asked to clarify this point that I made...

What I meant was "back in the day" lol, most Jews would of memorised the Psalms. When Jesus was on the Cross He cried out

46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[ (Matt 27:46 NIV)

The words "My God, my God why have you forsaken me" are the beginning of Psalm 22

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning? Psalm 22:1 NIV

You know how when some1 says one line of a song that you know, it triggers the rest of the song? Well for the Jews standing there, it would of triggered the rest of Psalm 22 and they would of gone through it.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me [b] in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Psalm 22 NIV

I have underlined the things which were playing out right in front of the people watching the crucifixion. This Psalm was written thousands of years b4 Christ. It was and is considered a prophecy of the Messiah. Here are some verses from the Gospels which fulfill the underlinded verses

39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

Matt 27:39-44

28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." John 19:28

31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"[ John 19:31-36 (The fullfillment of prophecy comes from a number of scriptures, one being Psalm 34:20)

24And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.

25It was the third hour when they crucified him. Mark 15:24-25

20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." John 20:20,25

When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.

24"Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."[a] So this is what the soldiers did. John 19:23-24

there we go, hope the clarified my point lol...
Well, my apologies to you for going through so much work. I do appreciate it, and you're one of the few people apparently familiar enough with the material to actually back up your POV. *bows*

If I was religious my question would be: "I haven't done anything to god, why should I be begging for forgiveness?"

Well I think this is a big issue a lot of people have today, we have this idea that we are 'good' people, like we've never murdered some1 right? And i for one dont think all humanity is a snivelling disgusting thing, but i do realise that we r not 'whole' and we are not perfect. We have sin. A lot of us think we are good, that (for those who belive in the Christian God) we are 'good enough' to get into heaven. But if we look at most basic commandments that God set out, we will see something different.

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


Ok, now lets look at that and do an honest examination of ourselves. We will just look at a few of the commands.

Ok who has ever used Gods Name in vain? If u answered yes, what does that make you? A blasphemer, right?

Who has ever murdered some1? U might not of murdered some1 but Jesus says

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment." Matthew 5:21-22

So who here has ever been really angry one for a fairly selfish reason, even possibly said "i could kill you!" Well be those standards u've commited the sin of murder...

WHo here has commited adultery? Who here has lusted after some1? Again in Jesus words they are the same thing lusting is adultery in the heart (matthew 5:28). So if u answered yes to that, what does that make you? An adulterer.

Have u ever stolen something? Regardless of its significance or monetry value, if u take something u shouldnt, its stealing. If u answer yes to this, than wouldnt that make u a thief?

Ever told a lie? (given false testimony?) if u have what does that make you? a liar!

so by our own confession/admission, we are Blasphemous, murderous, adulterous, lying theifs!

Do you think we will go to heaven in that condition, if God says these things are wrong, Will he let us into heaven based on how good we are? We have just established by this that "There is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10). God makes it clear that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. It is here that we stand 'condemned by God are seperated from Him. The next part of Romans 3:24 says and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

It is here when the good news of Jesus Christ comes into play. It is when we recognise our sinfulness towards God that we realise our need for a Saviour. Where we must throw ourselves at the mercy of God and ask for forgiveness of our sins. Where we must actively turn from our sin. Where the blood of Jesus cleanses us and we take on His righteousness and right standing before God. It is when we recieve the pardon of sins and take on Jesus' righteousness that we become acceptable.



i got the versus of http://www.biblegateway.com and http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/prophecy/

no copy right errors now hopefully. Oh and learned a lot of this stuff from Christian Studies teacher... and of a famous Evangelist named Ray Comfort, look him up on Way of the Master...http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/prophecy/ that should be good lol

again i hope it made sense...

Any responses?

Any responses?

Do you actually think people read those long posts?

I have a question though. What exactly is blasphemy of the holy spirit, and when does it occur?

This might shed some light on your question.

http://www.carm.org/questions/blasphemy.htm

Though frankly I don't really agree with it.

Edit: Actually, this one is better, I think.

http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/blasphemy.htm