NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I continue to the main thrust of what I would like to explain here, I should first like to establish what this discussion is NOT about. It is not about whether or not God exists, whether or not Jesus existed or any of the apoligetic questions regarding the validity of the Christian faith. What it is about is a question that is repeadly asked of the logic of the Christian faith which I intend to answer.

A question often asked of myself, and other Christians, is something along the lines of "Why did Jesus have to die to save us? Could'nt God have just forgiven us anyway". Often many people have struggled to answer this question, but the answer is, like all questions regarding the Christian faith, to be found in the Bible. Specificly in the parable of the two debtors.

For those who don't know it, here it is from Matthew

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Now this helps us understand the issue of why Jesus had to die for us. Because when the king wrote off the servents debts, that left a very large hole in the kings account books. Someone has to pay for that hole. Naturally it is the king himself. In the same way, God, to forgive us our debts (in sin) has to somehow pay for it. He does that in his sons death.

The other question often asked is "Why do we have to repent? You dont need someone to say sorry to forgive them, you can forgive them yourself". That is true. The process of forgiveness can be done by the wronged party alone. But God wants much more than just to forgive us. He wants our relationship to be reconsiled. Reconsiliation can only happen when both parties want it to. To reconsile a relationship, one has to say sorry and the other forgive.

Forgiveness is at the very heart of what it means to be a Christian

Wow, interesting topic.. Forgiveness is one thing, repentence is another. Christian virtues involve being genuinly sorry for sins committed, this is part of the deal. Yes, Christ forgives those who sin, but the sinner must repent as well.

Sorry, this thread was posted early. The full thread can be found also. Will post a link to it soon

EDIT
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=488255

It is impossible to be forgiven you want to be forgiven, God will forgive people if they ask for forgiveness and truely mean it but if you don't repent you can't be forgiven.

That's my take on it, if someone does something to you can you forgive them if they aren't sorry and you both know it will happen again?

The love of God is so complete that he sacraficed His only Son so that humans can be forgiven. This wasn't just like a martyr that died so that someone else could live. This is GOD dying so that ALL can live eternally in heaven, if they choose it. Such an amazing thing, it still bogles my mind every time I think about it.

Talking about God, a friend of mine was talking about members of Opus Day (Dai, Dy?) in the Goverment(UK). He said the Education Secretary wears one of those tight metal straps on her leg, to remind her that Christ suffered on the cross.

Now I was thinking, if you really were a devout Catholic, that doesn't sound like the kind of thing you'd forget...

The love of God is so complete that he sacraficed His only Son so that humans can be forgiven. This wasn't just like a martyr that died so that someone else could live. This is GOD dying so that ALL can live eternally in heaven, if they choose it. Such an amazing thing, it still bogles my mind every time I think about it.

A good way to think of just how big it is is to think of the friends and family you have that you would die to save. I could salfely say that most of us there wouldnt be many people we would die to save. But imagine loving everyone as much as you love those people

Now I was thinking, if you really were a devout Catholic, that doesn't sound like the kind of thing you'd forget...

HIGNFY is a great show

I would guess the moral of the parable is that to be forgiven, you must at least meet God half way, and to forgive your fellow man as God forgave you.

Talking about God, a friend of mine was talking about members of Opus Day (Dai, Dy?) in the Goverment(UK). He said the Education Secretary wears one of those tight metal straps on her leg, to remind her that Christ suffered on the cross.

Now I was thinking, if you really were a devout Catholic, that doesn't sound like the kind of thing you'd forget...


Yet another misunderstanding about the Catholic faith.... Similar to the statues, this is symbolic. People don't actually pray to the statue of Jesus, it is symbolic. Same with the metal straps, they are a symbolic gesture, sort of like wearing a cross around your neck.

On the original question of why Jesus died to save us, look at some thing they did around the time that he died.

It was the passover, and at that time, they would take an unblemished lamb (symbolic for one who is without sin), and sacrifice it to God for the forgiveness of one's sins.

Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate unblemished one. That is why he is called both the Paschal Sacrifice and the Lamb of God. And Jesus didn't just die for the forgivness of the sins of those who lived during his times, but for the great patriarchs, for those who came after, and (If they exist) for all sentient beings throughout the universe.

how does that parable explain why god had to sacrifice his son in order to offer us forgiveness?

how does that parable explain why god had to sacrifice his son in order to offer us forgiveness?
Yeah, I thought The Big Guy was omnipotent. He could have done it without the bells and whistles.

Very good thread. Finally I have found people discussing Christian faith without a bunch of random people flaming Christianity.

It was my understanding that God couldn't just forgive everyone for their sins without sacrifice because that was what he said before. God can't randomly change his mind, and will always stick with his promises/demands. As one would need to sacrifice a pure lamb for their sins, the blood of the purest would be needed to forgive everyone for their sins. At least that is my understanding.

I am not sure how that parable explains why he couldn't just forgive people for their sins without sacrifice.

The love of God is so complete that he sacraficed His only Son so that humans can be forgiven. This wasn't just like a martyr that died so that someone else could live. This is GOD dying so that ALL can live eternally in heaven, if they choose it. Such an amazing thing, it still bogles my mind every time I think about it.
I guess God's a bit of an Indian giver, then? I mean, he "died" one time, by his own choice, and didn't even stay dead. I'd say every real human being who died on a cross sacrificed significantly more than Jesus.

Yeah, I thought The Big Guy was omnipotent. He could have done it without the bells and whistles.

Maybe he just really wanted to kill his own son?

Maybe he just really wanted to kill his own son?
Who hasn't wanted to?

On the original question of why Jesus died to save us, look at some thing they did around the time that he died.

It was the passover, and at that time, they would take an unblemished lamb (symbolic for one who is without sin), and sacrifice it to God for the forgiveness of one's sins.

Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate unblemished one. That is why he is called both the Paschal Sacrifice and the Lamb of God. And Jesus didn't just die for the forgivness of the sins of those who lived during his times, but for the great patriarchs, for those who came after, and (If they exist) for all sentient beings throughout the universe.

I think what it comes down to is that despite Jesus telling everyone that they were forgiven for their sins, they simply wouldn't believe him. His sacrifice was an expedient means to allow people to believe that they were forgiven.

I think what it comes down to is that despite Jesus telling everyone that they were forgiven for their sins, they simply wouldn't believe him. His sacrifice was an expedient means to allow people to believe that they were forgiven.
Yeah, I know that whenever I see my fellow humans torture a man to death, I immediately think, "Wahoo, guess all my sins are forgiven!"

how does that parable explain why god had to sacrifice his son in order to offer us forgiveness?

If you see the full thread, which I have given a link to, you will see

Yeah, I know that whenever I see my fellow humans torture a man to death, I immediately think, "Wahoo, guess all my sins are forgiven!"

Ok, so you may not think that way, but the population of the time did. People think many silly things all the time, like needing money and lots of stuff to be happy when all one needs to be happy is simply to be happy. No one seriously believes that so they spend all their life getting stuff just so they can be happy.

Or perhaps Jesus was god but being in his current state he could not achieve his goal so he had to make the ultimate sacrafice to do so.

Ok, so you may not think that way, but the population of the time did.

I'd would LOVE to see you try to prove that.


People think many silly things all the time, like needing money and lots of stuff to be happy when all one needs to be happy is simply to be happy. No one seriously believes that so they spend all their life getting stuff just so they can be happy.
Um, I believe that I most definitely require material things in order to be happy. When I go without food, water, and shelter, I become very unhappy. I am not able to simply "be happy" while starving to death. But maybe I'm weird that way.

I'd would LOVE to see you try to prove that.


Well, I'm not going to. Proving things around here is pointless. Either you want to agree with me or you don't. It's your choice either way.

Well, I'm not going to. Proving things around here is pointless. Either you want to agree with me or you don't. It's your choice either way.
So you come here only to state your views and hear people say they agree with you?

So you come here only to state your views and hear people say they agree with you?

It's either that or see what alternate theory someone puts forth. Multiple opinions add value to a dialogue. Simply bashing other people's opinions adds nothing.

Ok, I've edited the OP to contain everything in the full post. Please re-read.

Ok, I've edited the OP to contain everything in the full post. Please re-read.

I did. If anything I would say that forgiveness has more to do with common sense than being a Christian. If one cannot forgive the transgressions of others, one continues to suffer from those transgressions. Forgiveness is accepting reality. What is done is done. It does not make any judgement on the right or wrong of things.

except that the parable isnt in any way a discussion of why god had to sacrifice his son in order to make things right.

its a discussion of why you should forgive anyone who asks your forgiveness no matter how often it is asked or how great the offense.

its an elaboration of "and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us" from the lord's prayer

It's either that or see what alternate theory someone puts forth. Multiple opinions add value to a dialogue. Simply bashing other people's opinions adds nothing.
So you believe that being expected to present evidence for your assertions means that your opinion is being "bashed"?

So you believe that being expected to present evidence for your assertions means that your opinion is being "bashed"?

Evidence is only necessary in the case of counter-assertions.

So God is like a human being with a finite quantity of money.

I see.

Evidence is only necessary in the case of counter-assertions.
Huh? The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion, since it is impossible to prove a negative.

Huh? The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion, since it is impossible to prove a negative.

What it comes down to more than anything else is nobody can have anything proven to them that they are not interested in believing in the first place. I believe you are such a person, therefore, I am not going to waste my time providing proof.

except that the parable isnt in any way a discussion of why god had to sacrifice his son in order to make things right.

its a discussion of why you should forgive anyone who asks your forgiveness no matter how often it is asked or how great the offense.

its an elaboration of "and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us" from the lord's prayer

Exactly right.

It also illustrates that repentence is an important part of it.

And I still wonder why so many offer forgiveness to those who haven't or won't ask for it. Such as people saying that they forgive murderers who killed someone they don't even know...:(

I guess God's a bit of an Indian giver, then? I mean, he "died" one time, by his own choice, and didn't even stay dead. I'd say every real human being who died on a cross sacrificed significantly more than Jesus.Seconded.

Who hasn't wanted to?
I never wanted to kill Mithra/Horus/Jesus. *shrug*

except that the parable isnt in any way a discussion of why god had to sacrifice his son in order to make things right.

its a discussion of why you should forgive anyone who asks your forgiveness no matter how often it is asked or how great the offense.

its an elaboration of "and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us" from the lord's prayer

Yes, but within it it explains the ultimate forgiveness. Yes of course Jesus didnt specificly say that this passage was intended to explain why he was dying, but it does nevertheless.

And thats seen in the very passage you quote "Forgive us our trespasses". Thats what God did when Jesus died. But like I explained in the OP, forgiveness involves a cost from the person doing the forgiving, which is what Jesus paid.

So God is like a human being with a finite quantity of money.

I see.

Its a metaphor. Dont oversimplify to attempt to weaken someone elses position. Its a flawed tatic

Its a metaphor. Dont oversimplify to attempt to weaken someone elses position. Its a flawed tatic
Perhaps i need a different script to get an angle on what god's about ... any recommendations? I have a few ... ;)

Perhaps i need a different script to get an angle on what god's about ... any recommendations? I have a few ... ;)

What exactly are you implying? I'm not entirely sure.

What exactly are you implying? I'm not entirely sure.
No stone unturned.