NationStates Jolt Archive

And they know it well, considering the fact that around a million muslims live there out of 16 million population. Meanwhile, their very own goverment ignores the concerns of the majority of their citizens and allow mass immigration from islamic countries. I guess, this is political enthropy. Communism started out with noble ideas like equality and no suffering for the worker class and then turned into a police state in USSR. Similarly, ruling parties in Europe always talk about democracy & human rights (and lecture them to other countries) while they ignore the very basic principle of democracy, rule of majority...


(Angus Reid Global Scan) – Many adults in the Netherlands hold strong views on the way Muslims adapt to the European continent, according to a poll by Motivaction released by GPD. 63 per cent of respondents believe think Islam is incompatible with modern European life.

In September 2004, Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders quit the liberal People’s Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD). Wilders criticized Muslims in the Netherlands for failing to properly integrate to society, and openly opposed Turkey’s accession to the European Union (EU).

In November 2004, controversial filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered. Van Gogh directed a short motion picture that depicts a husband’s abuse on a Muslim woman. Death threats to Wilders and other former VVD members were left at the crime scene.

On May 15, Dutch officials revealed that Somali-born VVD lawmaker Hirsi Ali provided false information when she applied for refugee status, and then when she sought citizenship. The next day, the lawmaker announced that she would leave the Second Chamber immediately. Hirsi Ali confirmed that she intends to move to the United States and work at the American Enterprise Institute.

In the January 2003 election, the Christian-Democratic Appeal (CDA) elected 44 lawmakers to the 150-seat Second Chamber. CDA member Jan Peter Balkenende has acted as minister president since July 2002. In early 2003, Balkenende established his second coalition government with the VVD and Democrats 66 (D66).

The next legislative ballot is tentatively scheduled for January 2007.

Polling Data

Do you think Islam is compatible with modern European life?

Yes


37%

No


63%

Source: Motivaction / GPD
Methodology: Interviews with 1,200 Dutch adults, conducted in May 2006. Margin of error is 3 per cent.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12143

This is from another poll a while back...


Another poll found that 50 percent of young Dutch people want no more Muslim immigration.

http://migration.ucdavis.edu/MN/more.php?id=2602_0_4_0

Last year:


"Most Dutch See Muslims as Threat - Poll"

(Reuters, January 22, 2005)

A large majority of Dutch people are afraid of Muslims, according to a poll taken after the murder of a Dutch filmmaker critical of Islam.

The poll, conducted by TNS NIPO in The Netherlands, as well as in Spain and Italy, since the November murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected radical Islamist, showed only 19 percent of Dutch people do not see the presence of Muslims in the country as a threat.

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=8560&sec=33&con=45

Methinks you confused democracy with mob rule.

Methinks you confused democracy with mob rule.

:rolleyes:


Noun

* S: (n) democracy (the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives)
* S: (n) democracy, republic, commonwealth (a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them)
* S: (n) majority rule, democracy (the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group)


I guess it's a "mob" when you dont agree with them. :rolleyes: I think you confuse democracy with dictatorship...

Oi, if you want to make Norway look like the asshole of the world, that is fine. But why do you need to use my people for your racist propaganda???

A xenophobic thread by Ny Nordland? Quelle surprise... :rolleyes:

*finally finds the energy to use ignore list*

*aah, that's better*

:rolleyes:



I guess it's a "mob" when you dont agree with them. :rolleyes: I think you confuse democracy with dictatorship...Note that there's three nice definitions there. I happen to live in the second one, where the Danish minority gets its own party with special rights in the northernmost state in Germany so their rights don't get trampled by the "numerical majority".

Again with the race topics Ny. Surely you should just give it up.

Oi, if you want to make Norway look like the asshole of the world, that is fine. But why do you need to use my people for your racist propaganda???To be fair to Norway, there have been many that have raised the point that he's probably not from there in the first place. Apart from that, you shouldn't really be judging a whole nation because of one poster.

Great topic, very well spoken thoughts on Europe and the importance of the ruling majority.

Oi, if you want to make Norway look like the asshole of the world, that is fine. But why do you need to use my people for your racist propaganda???

It's a survey, conducted and answered by dutch. I'm not doing anything myself.
Besides, Dutch are known for their tolerance and even they think this...

To be fair to Norway, there have been many that have raised the point that he's probably not from there in the first place. Apart from that, you shouldn't really be judging a whole nation because of one poster.

I didnt say that Norway is the asshole of the world, I was just saying that by posting the BS he always posts, he is trying to make Norway look like the AOTW...

I like Norway. Apart from the rain and the cold of course... ;)

A xenophobic thread by Ny Nordland? Quelle surprise... :rolleyes:

*finally finds the energy to use ignore list*

*aah, that's better*

http://www.fireworks.co.uk/images/plymouth1t.jpg

Ducking their heads under the sand. Typical PoliticalCorrectness Freak people response as the stupidity of thier arguments are exposed and they are confronted with realities...

Note that there's three nice definitions there. I happen to live in the second one, where the Danish minority gets its own party with special rights in the northernmost state in Germany so their rights don't get trampled by the "numerical majority".

That's Federalism. Muslims havent got their own muslim state in the Netherlands.

That's Federalism. Muslims havent got their own muslim state in the Netherlands.Danes don't have their own Danish state in Germany. What's your point?

That is true, Muslims think anyone who doesnt agree with Islam or break a SINGLE rule or whats in their interest must die and are Infedels. One day the world will fight an ban the religion of "Peace"........(Please)

The day islam is peacefull is the day Ellen turns straigt:eek: .........Never!

That is true, Muslims think anyone who doesnt agree with Islam or break a SINGLE rule or whats in their interest must die and are Infedels. One day the world will fight an ban the religion of "Peace"........(Please)

The day islam is peacefull is the day Ellen turns straigt:eek: .........Never!Are you being serious or satirical?

Muslims don't kill people, people kill people (and Monkeys do too (if they've got a gun))

Muslims don't kill people, people kill people (and Monkeys do too (if they've got a gun))

:\ What's that supposed to mean?

Meh, I dislike Islam because it prohibits half the population to engage in free trade. My logic is:

(1) Anything restricting free trade is bad.
(2) Islam restricts women and some tribal minorities from entering the market.
Conclusion 1 - Islam restricts free trade.
Corollary conclusion - Islam is bad.

-Thus Sayeth Jon

Danes don't have their own Danish state in Germany. What's your point?

Danes are concentrated at Holstein and the special rights are granted to them only there. A bit Like Catolonia of Spain. That's federalism.
However Danish votes doesnt count more than "german" votes when MPs are elected in Bundestag...

Muslims don't kill people, people kill people (and Monkeys do too (if they've got a gun))
remind me the last war on the recent years which wasn't include muslims?
I don't say all of the muslim reponsible to that, but compare to others the islam had much larger percent of assholes.

How recent? 10 years? Gulf War didn't have anything to do with religion.

30 years? Vietnam. No muslims there

60 years? WW2 again nothing with muslims

90 years? WW1......

much larger percent of assholes.
Perhaps we should say a "larger percent of people willing to blow shit up"?

remind me the last war on the recent years which wasn't include muslims?
I don't say all of the muslim reponsible to that, but compare to others the islam had much larger percent of assholes.

I'm pointing out they're assholes because they want, land, money, power for their community like any other violent group on earth. Being Muslim is not the reason their violent, merely a rabble rousing justification. I just thought I'd phrase it in an amusing and original way.

Danes are concentrated at Holstein and the special rights are granted to them only there. A bit Like Catolonia of Spain. That's federalism.
However Danish votes doesnt count more than "german" votes when MPs are elected in Bundestag...No, but they do count more than those of Germans living in Schleswig-Holstein. The state government of Schleswig-Holstein is democratic eventhough the Danish minority is afforded these rights.

remind me the last war on the recent years which wasn't include muslims?
I don't say all of the muslim reponsible to that, but compare to others the islam had much larger percent of assholes.
Remind me of the last time we declared something a war in recent years..

90 years? WW1......Turks are generally considered muslim...

How recent? 10 years? Gulf War didn't have anything to do with religion.

30 years? Vietnam. No muslims there

60 years? WW2 again nothing with muslims

90 years? WW1......

I have an answer:

The Sudan
Nigerian Civil War
The Balkans
The 7 Days War (Isreal vs almost every nation around them)
The war b/w Isreal and Lebanon back in the 70s
The war between the Muslims and the christians on Cyprus
The current conflict in the Philipines
The war in Afghanistan
The current war in Iraq

...

There's more...

No, but they do count more than those of Germans living in Schleswig-Holstein. The state government of Schleswig-Holstein is democratic eventhough the Danish minority is afforded these rights.

That has historical connections, going back to German-Danish wars in the 19th century and you know it. Apples and Oranges.
Besides, what are you arguing for exactly? Is limiting immigration an abuse of rights?

How recent? 10 years? Gulf War didn't have anything to do with religion.muslim is muslim. saddam believed is the new leader of the arab world as salah a-din.

30 years? Vietnam. No muslims there

60 years? WW2 again nothing with muslims

90 years? WW1......and you need to go that far to find something?
I think I made my point.

Is limiting immigration an abuse of rights?

No immigration to another country is a PRIVILEDGE offered by the recieving country ... not a right.

I have an answer:

The Sudan
Nigerian Civil War
The Balkans
The 7 Days War (Isreal vs almost every nation around them)
The war b/w Isreal and Lebanon back in the 70s
The war between the Muslims and the christians on Cyprus
The current conflict in the Philipines
The war in Afghanistan
The current war in Iraq

...


There's more...

The boer war
The hundred year war
The thirty years war
The seven year war
The Ukrainian war of indepence
The Korean war
The war of the Roses
The Anglo-Dutch wars
The Franco-Prussian wars
The Zulu war
The Pennisula war

I think we can agree Muslims are involved in a lot of wars because there have been a lot of wars.

No immigration to another country is a PRIVILEDGE offered by the recieving country ... not a right.

Exactly. So, stopping/reducing immigration (I'm not talking about asylum here) is not against any minority rights. However, when "elites" ignore the majority of the population (as is the case in Holland), it's not democracy, it's dictatorship...

That has historical connections, going back to German-Danish wars in the 19th century and you know it. Apples and Oranges.
Besides, what are you arguing for exactly? Is limiting immigration an abuse of rights?Mememe. Historical connections. The point I was making was that it's important to maintain instruments to prevent democracy from turning into a dictatorship of the majority.

Mememe. Historical connections. The point I was making was that it's important to maintain instruments to prevent democracy from turning into a dictatorship of the majority.

What's wrong with a dictatorship? It's the most efficient means of Government.

Mememe. Historical connections. The point I was making was that it's important to maintain instruments to prevent democracy from turning into a dictatorship of the majority.

limiting immigration = dictatorship of majority? :rolleyes:

limiting immigration = dictatorship of majority? :rolleyes:

Isn't the way the system is set up to make it so that the majority IS a dictatorship, but is constitutionally bound to respect minority rights?

Do you know what the majority is usually referred to in politics? A tyranny! this is not just minority groups who say it but even some majority groups. Also why is that you always pick out immigration involving muslims? Many people migrate. For example someone from England migrates to Australia or vice versa but I don't see you complaining about that

I guess it's a "mob" when you dont agree with them. :rolleyes: I think you confuse democracy with dictatorship...
No, it's mob rule when the government does everything a majority of citizens wants, and democracy when the government is elected but has no formal duty to do so. Most people want better public services, but lower taxes; with mob rule the country would go bankrupt doing so, but with democracy the elected representatives can balance the desires of the citizens and ignore impossible demands.

What's wrong with a dictatorship? It's the most efficient means of Government.Depends on the dictator. Humans tend to be corrupt.

For example someone from England migrates to Australia or vice versa but I don't see you complaining about that

Remind of the last time that a Londoner hacked an Aussie to death for making fun of his religion...

limiting immigration = dictatorship of majority? :rolleyes:It treads a thin red line.

Depends on the dictator. Humans tend to be corrupt.

Only because most of them don't truly understand costs and benefits.

No, it's mob rule when the government does everything a majority of citizens wants, and democracy when the government is elected but has no formal duty to do so. Most people want better public services, but lower taxes; with mob rule the country would go bankrupt doing so, but with democracy the elected representatives can balance the desires of the citizens and ignore impossible demands.

Apples and oranges again. "public services, but lower taxes" is contradictory. Limiting immigration doesnt contradict. People have right to choose whom they want in their country or not and politicians are bound to listen them. This is not an impossible demand.

It treads a thin red line.

Please. Dont be this dogmatic and subjective. You are the one here arguing against the very principle of democracy...

Apples and oranges again. "public services, but lower taxes" is contradictory. Limiting immigration doesnt contradict. People have right to choose whom they want in their country or not and politicians are bound to listen them. This is not an impossible demand.

Well, in that case people have the right to elect politicians that will act on their behalf. Obviously, they didn't.

Well, in that case people have the right to elect politicians that will act on their behalf. Obviously, they didn't.
Yeah .... that makes no sense in the context of what he said .... care to try again?

EDIT: The fact that [IMG] coding is disabled in the signatures really pisses me off.

Well, in that case people have the right to elect politicians that will act on their behalf. Obviously, they didn't.

It's more than that. It's more about political establishment. We got FrP here, who is very popular but every other party refuses to join them in coalition. It is, of course, their right. However, they ignore the wishes of the majority to protect status quo. Maybe this is better. The reaction votes has made Frp #1 popular party...
But you also know that single party rules are rare/non-existant in Europe...

Edit: Do you really believe that it'd be a healthy system if every political party ignored CDU?

Yeah .... that makes no sense in the context of what he said .... care to try again?

EDIT: The fact that [IMG] coding is disabled in the signatures really pisses me off.

Ok, let me spell it then:

He complained that the public obviously wasn't happy about having Muslims living in their country, while the government didn't react to the wants of the majority and didn't limit immigration further. Ergo, if the Dutch really had such a big issue with Muclims in their country, the way to go would be to elect politicians into office who had an interest in limiting further immigration.

The fact that the majority of the Dutch people didn't do that seems to imply that they may have doubts about Muslim immigrants, but see no real need for action.

Clearer now?

It's more than that. It's more about political establishment. We got FrP here, who is very popular but every other party refuses to join them in coalition. It is, of course, their right. However, they ignore the wishes of the majority to protect status quo. Maybe this is better. The reaction votes has made Frp #1 popular party...
But you also know that single party rules are rare/non-existant in Europe...

Edit: Do you really believe that it'd be a healthy system if every political party ignored CDU?

How popular is "very popular", then? The CDU/CSU is one of the two major parties in Germany, with normally between 35-45% of voters.

Meh, I dislike Islam because it prohibits half the population to engage in free trade. My logic is:

(1) Anything restricting free trade is bad.
(2) Islam restricts women and some tribal minorities from entering the market.
Conclusion 1 - Islam restricts free trade.
Corollary conclusion - Islam is bad.

-Thus Sayeth Jon

Jesus. So when the law says the trafficing of human slaves is wrong and "restricts" this free trade you say it's a bad thing.

You guys can call Ny Norland a racist all you want but he may be right. Europe has certian values and cultural practices that do not mesh well with the Islamic world. Its not racist to say that if muslims feel threaten in Europe because the European way of life that they may attack Europe. This would leave many innocent people dead because people want immigration from areas that arent compatable with the west. Immigration should be at the least be made more difficult so that only the people who truly wish to be a part of the European community are allowed in.

How popular is "very popular", then? The CDU/CSU is one of the two major parties in Germany, with normally between 35-45% of voters.

.



Latest Poll: New gains for Progress Party
The right wing Progress Party (FrP) is now three times the size of the Conservative Party, according to the latest poll made by Norstat for NRK. The party now has the support of 33.4 per cent of the electorate, up nearly 4 points from the March poll.

21.04.2006 07:58



FrP-leader Carl I.Hagen says the party may form a new government on its own after the next parliamentary elections, if the non-socialist parties are not able to agree on a joint political platform.

Norstat's results for April:

Progress Party 33.4 (+3.7)

Labour Party 31.2 (-1.0)

Conservatives 11.8 (-2.4)

Socialist Left 6.7 (-0.3)

Christian People 5.3 (-0.8)

Agrarians 5.1 (-0.8)

Liberal Left 4.4 (+1.5)


http://norwaypost.imaker.no/cgi-bin/norwaypost/imaker?id=23693

It's more than that. It's more about political establishment. We got FrP here, who is very popular but every other party refuses to join them in coalition. It is, of course, their right. However, they ignore the wishes of the majority to protect status quo. Maybe this is better. The reaction votes has made Frp #1 popular party...
But you also know that single party rules are rare/non-existant in Europe...

Edit: Do you really believe that it'd be a healthy system if every political party ignored CDU?

My memories from preschool math seem to suggest that when FrP represents the majority of the voters, as opposed to the largest minority of the voters, they no longer need the support of any other parties.

That will be a sad day... A nice little nation subjected to a democratically elected wrecking-ball.

And they know it well, considering the fact that around a million muslims live there out of 16 million population. Meanwhile, their very own goverment ignores the concerns of the majority of their citizens and allow mass immigration from islamic countries. I guess, this is political enthropy. Communism started out with noble ideas like equality and no suffering for the worker class and then turned into a police state in USSR. Similarly, ruling parties in Europe always talk about democracy & human rights (and lecture them to other countries) while they ignore the very basic principle of democracy, rule of majority...


http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12143

This is from another poll a while back...


http://migration.ucdavis.edu/MN/more.php?id=2602_0_4_0

Last year:


http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=8560&sec=33&con=45


Face it , Islam along with every other religion in the world is made up of a diverse group of races and attitudes and degree of beliefe in its tenets.
The Dutch being a VERY tolerant / libertarian nation have every right to show prospective immigrants what they may have to learn to at least tolerate if not accept if they are to be assimilated into Dutch society.
Conservative adherants to Islam would love certain sections of the US , because they Are almost as conservative as they are .
Placing a whole group of people into a catagory or a " type " is wrong .
Again there is NOTHING wrong with testing or showing EACH individual what they can ecpect from a western society and guaging that INDIVIDUALS reponse .
The danger is in letting a bunch of xenophobic assholes use the data to exclude yet another group from their vision of utopia . I work with and relate socialy with many Muslims ...only one is bit radical..the rest are not really that much different than anyone else I deal with ..OUR values are not their values BUT they are comfortable with it..just like A JEW who lives in a Catholic area soon learns to accept the differences among his neighbors..or a Hindu or a Buddist ...etc.

The assholes would use our differences to divide and conquer .
Any info to " prove " their perceptions against the group of the day to be shunned or hated..will be exploited .

I think they should just shove it all up their collective ass's...but that just my opinion .

Freedom of movement between arbitrary state borders has always been a right that people have enjoyed. It is only relatively recently that states have claimed the right to try and limit this. So yes, immigration _control_ is a limitation on a person's rights.

As for what democracy is and is not. Democracy is not Mob Rule, one of government's jobs is to make sure that society doesn't do something that it will regret in the morning, for example, shutting down immigration/exiling Muslims/masacring an Island full of suplicants/etc.

Only because most of them don't truly understand costs and benefits.More because human beings tend to do immoral things if they are tempted often enough by the promise of getting away with it.

Jesus. So when the law says the trafficing of human slaves is wrong and "restricts" this free trade you say it's a bad thing.
No, I say it's a bad thing because you are ENSLAVING someone.

You misunderstand the nature of a commercial market. Free trade is in relation only to governemt or social restrictions on agreements between two willing parties, slavery is not a contractual agreement between two parties, it is coercion by a single party.

Economics FTW!

Please. Dont be this dogmatic and subjective. You are the one here arguing against the very principle of democracy...Yup. Democracy has plenty potential to be a tool of oppression. Just because dictatorships are worse doesn't make democracy good.

Edit: Do you really believe that it'd be a healthy system if every political party ignored CDU?Like every party is ignoring the Linkspartei?

Freedom of movement between arbitrary state borders has always been a right that people have enjoyed. It is only relatively recently that states have claimed the right to try and limit this. So yes, immigration _control_ is a limitation on a person's rights.


This may be the case in movement from one european nation to another, bit NOT from Saudi Arabia to a country in Europe.

Allow me to clarify. The governments of Europe cannot give rights to you, you either have them or you don't, any right given to you by a government is not a right at all.

There is no RIGHT to be allowed into a country.

Do you know what the majority is usually referred to in politics? A tyranny! this is not just minority groups who say it but even some majority groups. Also why is that you always pick out immigration involving muslims? Many people migrate. For example someone from England migrates to Australia or vice versa but I don't see you complaining about that
Because Muslims have excessively conservative attitudes. English people generally don't.

.



http://norwaypost.imaker.no/cgi-bin/norwaypost/imaker?id=23693

Well, if it holds a majority, how can it be ignored by the other parties?

While I agree that immigration is a privilage, not a right, a country should not discriminate, and only allow people of certain religions to immigrate into the country. Would you think it was ok if the country did not allow any blacks into the country? It is the same.

And anyway, why should Muslims assimilate at all? They have the right to have their own traditions, and culture. I know that at least in the United States, people do not all assimilate. Each area can be assigned to a different ethnicity or religion. You got the Puerto Ricans in New York, the Cubans in Miami, Jews in LA or New York, and I can go on and on. The different groups keep their own cultures, and don't assimilate. Is that in any way wrong?

And just because you point out one case where a muslim killed someone for criticizing Islam, doesn't mean you can restrict all Muslims from immigrating. How about you do a background check to see if people have a violent history? Better?

On the one hand, I would be delighted to have people saying that religion is incompatible with modern society. However, I think the fact that Islam is singled out means that this isn't about people recognizing the problems with superstition, but rather is more about current cultural tensions. Bummer.

While I agree that immigration is a privilage, not a right, a country should not discriminate, and only allow people of certain religions to immigrate into the country. Would you think it was ok if the country did not allow any blacks into the country? It is the same.

Uhhh If that country wants to discriminate it should be allowed to. I discriminate: I discriminate against stupid people, I don't like them, I don't associate with them and I don't like to be around them. I have that right.


And anyway, why should Muslims assimilate at all? They have the right to have their own traditions, and culture. I know that at least in the United States, people do not all assimilate. Each area can be assigned to a different ethnicity or religion. You got the Puerto Ricans in New York, the Cubans in Miami, Jews in LA or New York, and I can go on and on. The different groups keep their own cultures, and don't assimilate. Is that in any way wrong?

Yes. You come to my country, you can have your own views and beliefs, but by God you will follow our laws and the minute you claim that your religion is incompatable with our social norms and that we should change to suit you, we should deport their ass back to the sandbox they came from.

And just because you point out one case where a muslim killed someone for criticizing Islam, doesn't mean you can restrict all Muslims from immigrating. How about you do a background check to see if people have a violent history? Better?
Virtually impossible to do this given the nature of the countries that these people are coming from.

This may be the case in movement from one european nation to another, bit NOT from Saudi Arabia to a country in Europe.

So you say a European has the right to travel freely within Europe, but not an Arab. Are you perhaps mistaking the Law for inherent rights, or do you subconsciously believe that a European is endowed with superior rights to an Arab?

Allow me to clarify. The governments of Europe cannot give rights to you, you either have them or you don't, any right given to you by a government is not a right at all.

You appear to be making my point, and disproving your own. I am saying that people have the right to do what they please (including breaking the Law), but I would also grant that the Government has the right to attempt to stop people from/punish people for breaking the Law. But doing so does indeed limit rights that have existed from time immemorial.

There is no RIGHT to be allowed into a country.

Let us go back to the sole founding tennet of Liberalism, that an individual should be able to do whatever they want unless given a good reason not to. From this perspective denying the right of entry is a case of Authoritarianism. So upon looking at it Liberally, we must admit that someone has the right of entry unless we can think of reason to deny them.

But then what is our justification to give such a reason. That we were born in this country? That is just the luck of birth. That we are descended from a long line of people from this country? That is again luck of birth. That you are a democratically elected representitive of your compatriots? Well, they can not revere onto you the right that they do not themselves have.

Greyenivol Colony, there is no right to immigrate because the country says so. Don't look at it liberally, look at it realistically. The country says no, so that's the law. As long as the courts or the people don't do anything about this, then immigration can be restricted.

Jon the Free, this does not mean however that you can discriminate. At least not based on appearance, religion, race, or gender. I don't know the laws of Denmark, but in the United States, the constitution says, 14th amendment to be exact, that all people have equal protection under the law, and that laws may not discrimanet based on the criteria I listed above. I can only assume that Denmark has a similar law, or so I hope. So while there is no law saying you can't restrict immigration, there may be a law saying laws cannot discriminate. You are proposing a law, that is targeting people of a specific religion, which contradicts with another law, and thus cannot pass.

A country can restrict immigration based on intelligence, loyalty to the country, and other things, if it would like to, as most countries already do. So you discriminating based on stupidity is fine. And anyway, you can discriminate based on whatever you want to, the government can't. People have freedom of speech, the government doesn't.

Do a large part of Danish Muslims claim that their religion is incompatible with Denmark? Why would they migrate to Denmark if this was true? Do many Muslims want to kill anyone who does not agree with them? If this was true, you would be witnessing hundreds even thousands of incidents where Muslims kill others in the name of Islam in Denmark.

Now tell me, do you think that a country can deny access to any person that is Black if the majority of the country wants this? Remember however that the government shouldn't do whatever the majority asks. That's why we call it democracy and not majority rule.

There is no RIGHT to be allowed into a country.
Don't forget that there is something like the "Asylum Law" in many (if not all?) European countries.
But the decision whether your case is treated as "being persecuted" needs to be evaluated from case to case. So, once you've officially made the claim, the government may indeed grant you the right to enter the country legally.

But this is different from the immigration laws and conflicts with that regularly.

You guys can call Ny Norland a racist all you want but he may be right. Europe has certian values and cultural practices that do not mesh well with the Islamic world. Its not racist to say that if muslims feel threaten in Europe because the European way of life that they may attack Europe. This would leave many innocent people dead because people want immigration from areas that arent compatable with the west. Immigration should be at the least be made more difficult so that only the people who truly wish to be a part of the European community are allowed in.
Some 40% of the Marrocan youths in the Netherlands are against westernstyle democracy anyway. So theres realy no need to keep them around.

Liar.
Care to elaborate on that?

I don't think the Dutch are qualified to say what is and what is not compatible with Europe. After all, they are only one country.

Some 40% of the Marrocan youths in the Netherlands are against westernstyle democracy anyway. So theres realy no need to keep them around.
If that figure is accurate then allowing this type of immigration is just asking for problems and for people to get hurt and your right there is no reason to keep them around.

Besides, Dutch are known for their tolerance and even they think this...
Are you entirely sure about this?

Unless there is a Danish state in Schleswig-Holstein I've never heard of it doesn't need any elebaration.
Then maybe I misunderstood whom you called a liar, 'cause Laerod stated exactly that: The Danes don't have their own Danish state in Germany. :confused:

Then maybe I misunderstood whom you called a liar, 'cause Laerod stated exactly that: The Danes don't have their own Danish state in Germany. :confused:
No. It was my mistake. I was only reading with half an eye.

Are you entirely sure about this?

These are the people who legalised weed, so I'd say, yes.

While I agree that immigration is a privilage, not a right, a country should not discriminate, and only allow people of certain religions to immigrate into the country. Would you think it was ok if the country did not allow any blacks into the country? It is the same.
Its not about religion or race. Its about whether people can fit into the society they are entering, if not then they dont get in.
And anyway, why should Muslims assimilate at all? They have the right to have their own traditions, and culture. I know that at least in the United States, people do not all assimilate. Each area can be assigned to a different ethnicity or religion. You got the Puerto Ricans in New York, the Cubans in Miami, Jews in LA or New York, and I can go on and on. The different groups keep their own cultures, and don't assimilate. Is that in any way wrong?
Because if they dont assimilate it will lead to major problems in the future. The group that doesnt join the rest of society will feel left out and hostile to the others. This will cause them to lash out at the society they didnt want to become a part of.

These are the people who legalised weed, so I'd say, yes.

Ah yes, legalising pot. Has this taken Muslims place as the most evil thing to exist? There's nothing wrong with legalising pot.

Ah yes, legalising pot. Has this taken Muslims place as the most evil thing to exist? There's nothing wrong with legalising pot.

I didn't say anything like that, learn to read. I said that the Dutch reputation as tolerant people is well deserved; if something's getting them worried, it must be really bad.

You say that people should be deported because of their beliefs and wanting to preserve their culture, or not abiding by YOUR rules. First of all, most of us muslim immigrants have lived in a conservative environment, and others in a dictatorship soiceties where government bothers them A LOT.

Second of all, they have been living there for just a few years. How can you expect them to forget about their culture and COMPLETELY abide by your rules. The solution is education and patience.

Hostility will only make them hate you more. You say 64% of Dutch do no want muslims. Well, "natives" have always been hostile to immigrants, for they fear that immigrants "destroy" their ways of lives. It has always been, but after somet time, everything turned out to be OK. For example, the Irish in US who came in 1850's faced with extreme patronizing from the "natives." After a two or three decades, everything turned out to be ok.

Thridly, why do you allow them into your country if you do not want them? you could just say no at the embassies, or check them for more backgrounds and see if they caused any trouble or have been in jail. That is the way US does it, and no problems here from Muslims what so ever. You do not see Americans complaining in newspapers wanting Muslims to be deported, do you? (maybe some, but very few). There are 7 million muslims in America, nearly all of them are very well-educated and cause no troubles.

Besidess, Europeans have always been known to hatred and fear of Islam. Want proof? Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. Even now you hate even more and want us destroyed. If you do not want them, why do you let them in the first place? And from this hatred and racism, how can you expect them from wanting to like you? This will cause them to hate you more.

Europeans?Tolerance?????? These are two words that do not go well in history. First you colonize a whole continent then take them to slavery; then you persecute the Jews for many centuries; then you fuck everybody up with your imperialism; then you start two world wars that drag the whole world into it; then you create "ideologies" that mess everybody up. And now, You want Islam destroyed and claim it is violent. Now, are Muslims tolerant or you??

True, there have been cases of hostility and trouble from Muslims in Europe, but also hostility from the people. Like the riots in France that was caused by this hatred. 1/3 of French tend to know themselves as racists. How can Muslims live and tolerate that for so long??? Besides, there is always bad and good everywhere. Not all Europeans have been wanting to cause WWII right?

And the thing I stress: Check the goddamn background of the immigrants, or put a quoata, if you want good people to come to your countries. Or just do not let them in. Very simple and no problems will be caused.

Muslims come to Europe in a VERY different environment. From politics to the way of life. How can you expect them to adopt so fastly?? and with all this hate and condescending. Not ALL muslims are like that. Do you see any Persian doing those stuff????If you generlize like this and hate us, why would I want to establish communication with you?

Why would I want to be friends with you when you treat the like of me like dirt?? Why would I want to adapt YOUR democracy that allows or fuels such attitudes???

Why would I want to be friends with you when you treat the like of me like dirt?? Why would I want to adapt YOUR democracy that allows or fuels such attitudes???

If you want to stay then YOU adapt, I rather like equal rights for women and non-muslims and so on. You don't like it? Go back to where you came from.

If you want to stay then YOU adapt, I rather like equal rights for women and non-muslims and so on. You don't like it? Go back to where you came from.

Did I say I do not want equal rights fro everyone??? Did I say that??? I want equal rights FOR EVERYONE. Can I adapt when you have this attitude?

It's a survey, conducted and answered by dutch. I'm not doing anything myself.
Besides, Dutch are known for their tolerance and even they think this...

You aren´t a Dutch. So let the Dutch speak what they really think.:p

*snip*
Know what? If you hate Europe so much and dont want to fully become part of its society and culture, its simple, leave. Go back to where came from and enjoy you life.

Know what? If you hate Europe so much and dont want to fully become part of its society and culture, its simple, leave. Go back to where came from and enjoy you life.


Who say I hate Europe? Besides, I do not live in Europe. It is YOU who hates us. Have I mocked you religion??Have I said something bad about Jesus??I face the likes of these in here who want me dead and mock my religion and my culture. My cousins are British and my uncle's wife is British too. for your information.

Who say I hate Europe? Besides, I do not live in Europe. It is YOU who hates us. Have I mocked you religion??Have I said something bad about Jesus??I face the likes of these in here who want me dead and mock my religion and my culture. My cousins are British and my uncle's wife is British too. for your information.
Judging by what you said about Europe in your post I assumed you did not like the place calling among other things, intolerant. I dont think anyone here has mocked your religion, muhammed or your culture. I dont hate any group of people. Its just that different groups of people must by willing to embrace the European society or they shouldnt get in. If they want to hold on to their culture, they should stay in their society.

Who say I hate Europe? Besides, I do not live in Europe. It is YOU who hates us. Have I mocked you religion??Have I said something bad about Jesus??I face the likes of these in here who want me dead and mock my religion and my culture. My cousins are British and my uncle's wife is British too. for your information.

Speaking as a European here, what makes you think I hate you? And what makes you think I mocked your religion? You can't mock mine, I don't have any.
Calm down a bit, you're not helping whatever case you are trying to help...

And what makes you think I mocked your religion? You can't mock mine, I don't have any.


Can and will! Um... er... uh... You don't have a religion! Ha!

Dammit, you're right, I can't. :headbang:

No, it's mob rule when the government does everything a majority of citizens wants, and democracy when the government is elected but has no formal duty to do so. Most people want better public services, but lower taxes; with mob rule the country would go bankrupt doing so, but with democracy the elected representatives can balance the desires of the citizens and ignore impossible demands.

Well lets get one thing strait. Democracy itself has nothing to do with elected representatives. This is what we call a republic. Where the people elect representatives that are supposed to relate the peoples will to other representatives, who then vote with their little commune, which in a sense is majority rule. Cause who ever gets the most votes wins.

Democracy is EVERYONE is involved on the voting over issues, theres no president theres no senate, no congress. Every body votes over issues and decides. Republic is a more efficent but sometimes more hazardous system of democracy, cause its real easy to bribe officials.

But they both have the same core value. the Majority of people Win. Which ever have the most votes wins. And who ever wins wins, not oh i dont like this so ill do an N round what the people want and go to the courts and make their moral concious illegal. Its thats what most people want. thats what most people get. And guess what if you dont like it, no one is stopping you from leaving.

Judging by what you said about Europe in your post I assumed you did not like the place calling among other things, intolerant. I dont think anyone here has mocked your religion, muhammed or your culture. I dont hate any group of people. Its just that different groups of people must by willing to embrace the European society or they shouldnt get in. If they want to hold on to their culture, they should stay in their society.


Can't they at least choose their religion?? By European culture, do you also mean converting to Christianity? I agree, they should learn the language and custom, if they want to live there. But, is it not a democracy and freedom of religion? You cannot expect them to FULLY abandon the practices of their forefathers and their culture. Also, COMPLETELY becoming Europeans will harm them and your culture. Do you know why the Holocause happened in Europe and why Germans hated Jews?? Mostly because of Jews marrying with Christian Germans and completely becoming them. Only thing they preserved was Judaism, and they were very successful and were very successful in everything. In Germany, Jews were the most successful people and held very important places in politics and economy. They forgot their roots completely and mixed with German people completely. That is why most of them could still not believe what was happening to them while they were in the ovens waiting to be cremenated. Do you want that to happen to your country?

Cultural mixing is harmful to everyone. True, they should adapt your culture and know your language and customs, and abide by your laws; but you cannot ask them to forget their roots.

Can and will! Um... er... uh... You don't have a religion! Ha!

Dammit, you're right, I can't. :headbang:
We can mock her lack of religion:p

~snip
Exactly. As long as people abide by the law, they should be able to be and to do what they want.

Can't they at least choose their religion?? By European culture, do you also mean converting to Christianity? I agree, they should learn the language and custom, if they want to live there. But, is it not a democracy and freedom of religion? You cannot expect them to FULLY abandon the practices of their forefathers and their culture. Also, COMPLETELY becoming Europeans will harm them and your culture. Do you know why the Holocause happened in Europe and why Germans hated Jews?? Mostly because of Jews marrying with Christian Germans and completely becoming them. Only thing they preserved was Judaism, and they were very successful and were very successful in everything. In Germany, Jews were the most successful people and held very important places in politics and economy. They forgot their roots completely and mixed with German people completely. That is why most of them could still not believe what was happening to them while they were in the ovens waiting to be cremenated. Do you want that to happen to your country?

Cultural mixing is harmful to everyone. True, they should adapt your culture and know your language and customs, and abide by your laws; but you cannot ask them to forget their roots.
Are you saying that muslims in Europe arent allowed to remain Islamic that it will cause another holocaust? Please. Assimilation is a GOOD thing. When they dont assimilate bad things happen.

Can't they at least choose their religion?? By European culture, do you also mean converting to Christianity? I agree, they should learn the language and custom, if they want to live there. But, is it not a democracy and freedom of religion? You cannot expect them to FULLY abandon the practices of their forefathers and their culture. Also, COMPLETELY becoming Europeans will harm them and your culture. Do you know why the Holocause happened in Europe and why Germans hated Jews?? Mostly because of Jews marrying with Christian Germans and completely becoming them. Only thing they preserved was Judaism, and they were very successful and were very successful in everything. In Germany, Jews were the most successful people and held very important places in politics and economy. They forgot their roots completely and mixed with German people completely. That is why most of them could still not believe what was happening to them while they were in the ovens waiting to be cremenated. Do you want that to happen to your country?

Cultural mixing is harmful to everyone. True, they should adapt your culture and know your language and customs, and abide by your laws; but you cannot ask them to forget their roots.

What on earth makes you think European culture would involve being Christian??? We're not talking Europe 100 years ago, we are talking Europe today, which means secular states and an overwhelmingly agnostic population.

And no, Germans didn't hate Jews because Jews were German. Germans hated Jews because they were a large, affluent minority and because antisemitism has a strong history in European history.

Cultural mixing isn't harmful, but you can't expect it to simply happen overnight. And cultural mixing doesn;t mean one group adapting entirely to the culture of the majority, it means interaction between both culture and it will inevitably change both.

We can mock her lack of religion:D

That's what I was trying to do, but it just lacked... I don't know... meaning. I'll go back to politely asking Muslims a few questions on the religion's point of view concerning homosexuals and women, and then proceeding to listen to them scream bloody murder at me. Then maybe I'll go do it to a Christian extremist. :D

Speaking as a European here, what makes you think I hate you? And what makes you think I mocked your religion? You can't mock mine, I don't have any.
Calm down a bit, you're not helping whatever case you are trying to help...


lol i can mock ure religions, athiests are nothing but sex driven whores who dont like religion cause it puts rules on sex and they want their monthely orgies. And then they call the rest of the world idiots, when there are more people who live in teh Vatican, the smalles country in the world, then there are athiests walking the globe.


but BECAUSE I SAY IT......does it make it true? NO! it doesnt, just means im a bigot and an intolerant. even though many athiests do call us idiots, and which case i laugh.

Oh and no what i said about athiests are not my beliefs, i was just portraying a Bigot's views

That's what I was trying to do, but it just lacked... I don't know... meaning. I'll go back to politely asking Muslims a few questions on the religion's point of view concerning homosexuals and women, and then proceeding to listen to them scream bloody murder at me. Then maybe I'll go do it to a Christian extremist. :D

*gets some popcorn to enjoy that show

What on earth makes you think European culture would involve being Christian??? We're not talking Europe 100 years ago, we are talking Europe today, which means secular states and an overwhelmingly agnostic population.

And no, Germans didn't hate Jews because Jews were German. Germans hated Jews because they were a large, affluent minority and because antisemitism has a strong history in European history.

Cultural mixing isn't harmful, but you can't expect it to simply happen overnight. And cultural mixing doesn;t mean one group adapting entirely to the culture of the majority, it means interaction between both culture and it will inevitably change both.

I thought what you guys ment by adapting was to even change their religion. My fault.

I did not say that Germans hate Jews NOW. I said at THAT time. Please pay attention to past tense.

You have good point, but if everyone thought like you....It would be really good.

lol i can mock ure religions, athiests are nothing but sex driven whores who dont like religion cause it puts rules on sex and they want their monthely orgies. And then they call the rest of the world idiots, when there are more people who live in teh Vatican, the smalles country in the world, then there are athiests walking the globe.


but BECAUSE I SAY IT......does it make it true? NO! it doesnt, just means im a bigot and an intolerant. even though many athiests do call us idiots, and which case i laugh.

Oh and no what i said about athiests are not my beliefs, i was just portraying a Bigot's views

:p
Doesn't even concern me, because I'm an agnostic. and believe me, there are more of us than there are citizens of the Vatican. ;)

Other than that, yes, that was a nice example of an average bigot's rant, well done. :D

Are you saying that muslims in Europe arent allowed to remain Islamic that it will cause another holocaust? Please. Assimilation is a GOOD thing. When they dont assimilate bad things happen.

I said they SHOULD be allowed to have their culture and REMAIN Islamic. I said mixing interracially could be harmful.

eh any christian who blows up and screams bloody murder over homesexuals or anything for that matter, isnt a good christian.

any way HERES The good example of people unwilling to convert, Athiests, in america. NOT ALL! AND NOT EVEN MOST! but some.

like the whatever his name is who sued to get the Under god out of the pledge of alliegance, and the In god we trust out of the dollar bill. YOU WHAT! Christianity, isnt just the major religion in America, its the cornerstone, if it werent for christianity, the colonists never would have rebelled against britain. It was their belief in god and freedom that gave them the Courage to Fight back. and our laws are mainly based on the bible, as is most common law, that everyone can agree with. So atheists, you dont like god, dont believe in him, thats cool, you have the right to do that, BUt dont go around trying to use the court to remove him from out culture, that just pisses people off. You dont like it, but guess what, your the minority, DEAL WITH IT! OR!!!!!! BE like the African Americans, Get some people to be your Martin Luther King Jr, and do it, that way, but wait, theres not enough of you, so ure kinda screwed. An plus, its not like ure treated badly, we just have our customs you dont agree with, Well too bad. dont like the customs of the country your in? leave. And thats the bottom line, for everyone

I said they SHOULD be allowed to have their culture and REMAIN Islamic. I said mixing interracially could be harmful.
I dont care if they remained muslims, I dont think anyone would force them to convert. As long as their religion does not control the way they live or prevent them from accepting western ideals. If they want to remain non-western and hard line muslims, then they have no place in Europe. Which has been stated before, is a secular place for the most part.

You say that people should be deported because of their beliefs and wanting to preserve their culture, or not abiding by YOUR rules. First of all, most of us muslim immigrants have lived in a conservative environment, and others in a dictatorship soiceties where government bothers them A LOT.

That is the price of migration: you obey the rules of the place you come to, sice laws and certain norms in society apply. Let me give you an example, in reverse. A few years, a few friends of mine and myself visited Pakistan. Despite being European, the girls ensured they were covered when we were givien a tour of a mosque in Lahore, and we all removed our shoes. Why? Noone said we had to. However, we respected the culture and society of our hosts and ensured we did not cause offense. The reverse should also be true.

Second of all, they have been living there for just a few years. How can you expect them to forget about their culture and COMPLETELY abide by your rules. The solution is education and patience.

I agree. However, there are those who do not even want to do so, and it is unfortuante that these people get all the media attention.

Hostility will only make them hate you more. You say 64% of Dutch do no want muslims. Well, "natives" have always been hostile to immigrants, for they fear that immigrants "destroy" their ways of lives. It has always been, but after somet time, everything turned out to be OK. For example, the Irish in US who came in 1850's faced with extreme patronizing from the "natives." After a two or three decades, everything turned out to be ok.

The US is different in two ways. The first is that the "culture gap" is much less, with most speaking English and a common religion, for example. The second is that the US is different to Europe, in the fact that the USA was encouraging migration (as far as I know) while Europe is densely populated and does not encourage migration.

You should also try to realise that Dutch is not synonomous with European. Europe is very different accross the continent, and the same survey would get very different results.

Thridly, why do you allow them into your country if you do not want them? you could just say no at the embassies, or check them for more backgrounds and see if they caused any trouble or have been in jail. That is the way US does it, and no problems here from Muslims what so ever. You do not see Americans complaining in newspapers wanting Muslims to be deported, do you? (maybe some, but very few). There are 7 million muslims in America, nearly all of them are very well-educated and cause no troubles.

Just like there are large population in other European countries that have large muslim communities and have not had calls for deportation.

Besidess, Europeans have always been known to hatred and fear of Islam. Want proof? Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. Even now you hate even more and want us destroyed. If you do not want them, why do you let them in the first place? And from this hatred and racism, how can you expect them from wanting to like you? This will cause them to hate you more.

Try not to scrape the barrel of history. Half the countries in Europe didn't even exist then. At the time of the Inquisition the Netherlands had only been independent from Spain for a year!

Europeans?Tolerance?????? These are two words that do not go well in history. First you colonize a whole continent then take them to slavery; then you persecute the Jews for many centuries; then you fuck everybody up with your imperialism; then you start two world wars that drag the whole world into it; then you create "ideologies" that mess everybody up. And now, You want Islam destroyed and claim it is violent. Now, are Muslims tolerant or you??

This intolerant Europe, that takes many muslims every year, who find a good quality of life and enjoy western society. If you hate us so, why come here?


True, there have been cases of hostility and trouble from Muslims in Europe, but also hostility from the people. Like the riots in France that was caused by this hatred. 1/3 of French tend to know themselves as racists. How can Muslims live and tolerate that for so long??? Besides, there is always bad and good everywhere. Not all Europeans have been wanting to cause WWII right?

Have the riots made anything better? No. has the hatred suddenly ended? No. While I disagree with ghettoising, and the economic system that creates it, is it always the fault of French, British or Spanish peopel that immigrants do tend to try to live together in their new chosen country?


And the thing I stress: Check the goddamn background of the immigrants, or put a quoata, if you want good people to come to your countries. Or just do not let them in. Very simple and no problems will be caused.

We would end up being branded racist, but it passes, and we are also, on the whole, tolerant.

Muslims come to Europe in a VERY different environment. From politics to the way of life. How can you expect them to adopt so fastly?? and with all this hate and condescending. Not ALL muslims are like that. Do you see any Persian doing those stuff????If you generlize like this and hate us, why would I want to establish communication with you?

Well, I would look and the rest of the your post, and perhaps look that the huge generalisation of Europeans you have made.

Why would I want to be friends with you when you treat the like of me like dirt?? Why would I want to adapt YOUR democracy that allows or fuels such attitudes???

British democracy in no way encourages racism. Not at all. If you don't like it, or feel your way of life is incompatible, don't come. Noone is forcing anyone to. However, many come because they do want to live in a western democracy.

I disagree with my government's foreign and domestic policy, and if you didn't generalise me as a neoconservative fundementalist christian, you might discover we perhaps have more in common.

I thought what you guys ment by adapting was to even change their religion. My fault.

I did not say that Germans hate Jews NOW. I said at THAT time. Please pay attention to past tense.

You have good point, but if everyone thought like you....It would be really good.

Well, I was talking in the past tense myself. You'd find very few Germans today who would still hold antisemitic views. But during the Third Reich, the basis of that hatred was really a tradition of antisemitic thought that had been formed into pseudo-scientific theories paired with the psychological need to find a scapegoat for virtually all of the nation's problems.

I said they SHOULD be allowed to have their culture and REMAIN Islamic. I said mixing interracially could be harmful.

whoa, whoa WHOA! mixing interracialy is harmful? so like my three closest friends who are black, (im white) all have white girlfriends, Thats harmful? ::falls over laughing:: yes look at the mass of people protesting, oMG SHES WHITE HES BLACK!! THE WORLD IS OVER!!! RUNNNNN!!!!! ::Laughs harder:: interacial mix isnt harmful. My greek girlfriend, and im white. Is that harmful? no. Look for somepeople it works for some it doesnt, like me, dating black girls, doesnt work, not that i think its wrong, i just dont have the attraction.

I dont care if they remained muslims, I dont think anyone would force them to convert. As long as their religion does not control the way they live or prevent them from accepting western ideals. If they want to remain non-western and hard line muslims, then they have no place in Europe. Which has been stated before, is a secular place for the most part.


What do you care about their ideals if the abide by the lawand live peacefully without bothering anyone? And I do not mean for them to be anti-western. And if you mean by western ideals that they do not harm anybody, abide by the law, and do not tend to harm anyone, then yes. i do not know what do you EXACTLY mean by western ideals.

What do you care about their ideals if the abide by the lawand live peacefully without bothering anyone? And I do not mean for them to be anti-western. And if you mean by western ideals that they do not harm anybody, abide by the law, and do not tend to harm anyone, then yes. i do not know what do you EXACTLY mean by western ideals.

I'm taking a wild guess here, but I think he might be referring to issues like arranged marriages, education for women, or possibly attempting to change the laws of the country to reflect Islamic beliefs.

I think a great example of all this is the movie "Bend it like Becham". The hindu daughter wants to date a Euro guy, and play football, (i dont call it soccor even if i am american, amrican foot ball should be called pussy rugby) THE PARENTS! refuse to do anything European. they refuse to allow her to play football or anything like that. Y cause they refuse to intergrate into the British society? the question is Y? if you dont want to adapt to the culture there, DONT COME! stay where ure culture is the majority of the Populations culture

whoa, whoa WHOA! mixing interracialy is harmful? so like my three closest friends who are black, (im white) all have white girlfriends, Thats harmful? ::falls over laughing:: yes look at the mass of people protesting, oMG SHES WHITE HES BLACK!! THE WORLD IS OVER!!! RUNNNNN!!!!! ::Laughs harder:: interacial mix isnt harmful. My greek girlfriend, and im white. Is that harmful? no. Look for somepeople it works for some it doesnt, like me, dating black girls, doesnt work, not that i think its wrong, i just dont have the attraction.


I never meant DATING interracially is harmful. What I mean is intecultural marriages, which 95% of them lead to a divorce. and I wanted to say culturally different. I may have put it in the wrong way. Besides, I love dating and spending time with other people who are culturally different. But when it come to marriage, I belive you should marry a person who is familiar or is from your own culture. That is it.

P.S: Are greeks non-white? I know she is culturally different, but you guys are still Europeans right?

I think a great example of all this is the movie "Bend it like Becham". The hindu daughter wants to date a Euro guy, and play football, (i dont call it soccor even if i am american, amrican foot ball should be called pussy rugby) THE PARENTS! refuse to do anything European. they refuse to allow her to play football or anything like that. Y cause they refuse to intergrate into the British society? the question is Y? if you dont want to adapt to the culture there, DONT COME! stay where ure culture is the majority of the Populations culture

First of all, that is a movie. Second of all, you are right, they were WAY TOO conservative. What I mean is, NEVER FORGET YOUR ROOTS. We all say the ending what happened in the movie right? Democracy and freedom, innit mate?

I never meant DATING interracially is harmful. What I mean is intecultural marriages, which 95% of them lead to a divorce. and I wanted to say culturally different. I may have put it in the wrong way. Besides, I love dating and spending time with other people who are culturally different. But when it come to marriage, I belive you should marry a person who is familiar or is from your own culture. That is it.

P.S: Are greeks non-white? I know she is culturally different, but you guys are still Europeans right?

not all europeans are white buddy. Greeks and italians take on a more of a darker complection. And yeah many intercultural marriages fall apart, but thats because they didnt love eachother in the firstplace, they may have thought they did, but they didnt.

Like my Fiance, (same girl as the greek girl, it just happened recently and now i have to get used to it) shes not a practicing christian, me? im a very practicing christian, shes really wealthy im comfortable. the only things we have in common is that were both human and both republicans. other than that we clash on almost anything, i mean, im not a preppish kid, but kindof, Shes gothic, we clash over everthing from political views to what music to listen to. But there is nothing that can split us appart. Marriage isnt broken up by culture, but by lack of love, nothing more.

I think a great example of all this is the movie "Bend it like Becham". The hindu daughter wants to date a Euro guy, and play football, (i dont call it soccor even if i am american, amrican foot ball should be called pussy rugby) THE PARENTS! refuse to do anything European. they refuse to allow her to play football or anything like that. Y cause they refuse to intergrate into the British society? the question is Y? if you dont want to adapt to the culture there, DONT COME! stay where ure culture is the majority of the Populations culture

It's difficult to give a set of values for raising children, and especially teenagers won't take any form of restrictions without a fight. But I honestly don't think that anyone should tell parents how to raise their kids.
As far as I know, parents in your very own country insist on teaching their own children, so as to not let them get into contact with anything contradicting their religion. And I remember the fights I had with my parents about how long I could go out at night, or what kind of clothes I could wear. There is not so much difference there.

First of all, that is a movie. Second of all, you are right, they were WAY TOO conservative. What I mean is, NEVER FORGET YOUR ROOTS. We all say the ending what happened in the movie right? Democracy and freedom, innit mate?

like i said earlier about athiests trying to use the courts in america to change our bloody culture. dont change your religious, beliefs or forget your roots, but adapt to the culture of the place ure in. dont want to? dont live there. its that simple.

It's difficult to give a set of values for raising children, and especially teenagers won't take any form of restrictions without a fight. But I honestly don't think that anyone should tell parents how to raise their kids.
As far as I know, parents in your very own country insist on teaching their own children, so as to not let them get into contact with anything contradicting their religion. And I remember the fights I had with my parents about how long I could go out at night, or what kind of clothes I could wear. There is not so much difference there.


true but the movie illustrates, clash of culture of country, to culture of place they came from. different place, follows different rules. your not gonna adapt to those rules, dont even bother coming.

like i said earlier about athiests trying to use the courts in america to change our bloody culture. dont change your religious, beliefs or forget your roots, but adapt to the culture of the place ure in. dont want to? dont live there. its that simple.

Agreed.

not all europeans are white buddy. Greeks and italians take on a more of a darker complection. And yeah many intercultural marriages fall apart, but thats because they didnt love eachother in the firstplace, they may have thought they did, but they didnt.

Like my Fiance, (same girl as the greek girl, it just happened recently and now i have to get used to it) shes not a practicing christian, me? im a very practicing christian, shes really wealthy im comfortable. the only things we have in common is that were both human and both republicans. other than that we clash on almost anything, i mean, im not a preppish kid, but kindof, Shes gothic, we clash over everthing from political views to what music to listen to. But there is nothing that can split us appart. Marriage isnt broken up by culture, but by lack of love, nothing more.

I wish you both a happy marriage.

true but the movie illustrates, clash of culture of country, to culture of place they came from. different place, follows different rules. your not gonna adapt to those rules, dont even bother coming.

Those are personal rules, not laws. They can adhere to them, as far as they legally can. I don't agree with it, personally, but that's called tolerance.
To ask them to change their private lives would be like asking me to no longer speak my own language at home or to no longer cook the food I always cooked just because I moved to another country now.

I wish you both a happy marriage.


thank you, her parents the same, mine.....eh not so much, they dont say anything, but i can tell.

Those are personal rules, not laws. They can adhere to them, as far as they legally can. I don't agree with it, personally, but that's called tolerance.
To ask them to change their private lives would be like asking me to no longer speak my own language at home or to no longer cook the food I always cooked just because I moved to another country now.


hmm you make a good point,......i must meditate on this, and ask the force for answers....lol no seriously, i hadnt thought of that

To ask them to change their private lives would be like asking me to no longer speak my own language at home or to no longer cook the food I always cooked just because I moved to another country now.

But how far should one be allowed to ask them to change ? Just limited to obedience to the law, or is the question "if you do not like to adapt to our lifestyle, why not move to a country that fits yours better" a valid one ?

But how far should one be allowed to ask them to change ? Just limited to obedience to the law, or is the question "if you do not like to adapt to our lifestyle, why not move to a country that fits yours better" a valid one ?

I guess this is the purpose of laws, isn't it? to set the general framework of a society and a country. Everything within those laws ought to be at least tolerated, if not approved of. If that wasn't the case, we would have no personal freedom at all.

Answer: Encourage the freedom of Islamic thought in Europe to grow a stock of Islamic intellectuals who grew up in Europe and who are familiar with "European values", rather than relying on politicised leaders from oppressive Arab countries as they do in the moment.

Answer: Encourage the freedom of Islamic thought in Europe to grow a stock of Islamic intellectuals who grew up in Europe and who are familiar with "European values", rather than relying on politicised leaders from oppressive Arab countries as they do in the moment.

eh a better answer but one of many. Mass genocide of Islamics works just as well, and actually much more effectively, but is it a good choice? of coursenot,
Real answer: theres no simple one, figure something out on your own.

Answer: Encourage the freedom of Islamic thought in Europe to grow a stock of Islamic intellectuals who grew up in Europe and who are familiar with "European values", rather than relying on politicised leaders from oppressive Arab countries as they do in the moment.

Interesting approach... it might work, but it'll take some time.

remind me the last war on the recent years which wasn't include muslims?
I don't say all of the muslim reponsible to that, but compare to others the islam had much larger percent of assholes.
Just LMAOed big time :D

Are these people really serious? How many wars have been fought in last 10 years that didn't include christians? Christians are assholes? YOU are an asshole?

cabra just to say, i really do find your sig offensive. Because i believe in religion, im now a good person who will do evil things. And thats not bigotry and intolerance how?

More people have been killed in the name of god than any other reason. well no. these were evil people who hid behind religion to further their own ends. dont blame religion, blame the person, without religion wed have no value system, chew on that thought for a while.

cabra just to say, i really do find your sig offensive. Because i believe in religion, im now a good person who will do evil things. And thats not bigotry and intolerance how?
Read it again, that's not what it says.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Not that

"People who believe in God do evil things".

More people have been killed in the name of god than any other reason. well no. these were evil people who hid behind religion to further their own ends. dont blame religion, blame the person, without religion wed have no value system, chew on that thought for a while.
Utter bullshit. Values are by no means dependant on religion. Where did you pull that from?

dont blame religion, blame the person, without religion wed have no value system, chew on that thought for a while.
Now that is offensive.

cabra just to say, i really do find your sig offensive. Because i believe in religion, im now a good person who will do evil things. And thats not bigotry and intolerance how?

More people have been killed in the name of god than any other reason. well no. these were evil people who hid behind religion to further their own ends. dont blame religion, blame the person, without religion wed have no value system, chew on that thought for a while.

Read it again. It doesn't say that religious people are bad persons.

And yes, we would have values without religion. Values were there first, they evolved. Religion was invented to give them a backing.

lets see, @Madnestan "for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." thats utter bullshit, if anything religion keeps good people from doing evil things.


@neu leonstein: without religion, or in other words with out a higher power, wed have no reason to prove ourselves. I could do anything i wanted, and it wouldnt be wrong, because who gives a fuck what other people think, they are just other people, they dont matter to me.

But a God saying it was wrong? think about it.

and does anybody else realized how the common law, is based off the bible? anyone?

Read it again. It doesn't say that religious people are bad persons.

And yes, we would have values without religion. Values were there first, they evolved. Religion was invented to give them a backing.


actualy, archialogic history, shows that until people were united under religion, it was utter chaos. and the oldest religon in existance(that can be documented), is judeo christian.

actualy, archialogic history, shows that until people were united under religion, it was utter chaos. and the oldest religon in existance(that can be documented), is judeo christian.
Hiduism is a lot older.

without religion, or in other words with out a higher power, wed have no reason to prove ourselves. I could do anything i wanted, and it wouldnt be wrong, because who gives a fuck what other people think, they are just other people, they dont matter to me.

But a God saying it was wrong? think about it.
God doesn't exist in my view. I still have a system of morals and ethics.
You tell me why.

and does anybody else realized how the common law, is based off the bible? anyone?
That's a myth. It's very originally based on ancient Sumerian scriptures, I believe.
But then, so is the Bible. :p

Ill tell you why you have morals, cause you live in a place that contains a common moralistic law, which was derived from religious teachings, so in a sense you claim to have values, but your taking borrowed capita from christians and jews.

And the dead sea scrolls which is the oldest text of the jewish bible known to man, are actually older than the mesopotamian City state of Sumer.


And Hinduism claims to be older, but theres no proof. The Hindu temple is only 3 thouasand or so years old. while the dead sea scrolls were around 7 thousand years old.

Ill tell you why you have morals, cause you live in a place that contains a common moralistic law, which was derived from religious teachings, so in a sense you claim to have values, but your taking borrowed capita from christians and jews.
Then why do I so frequently engage in illegal behaviour, from speeding over underage drinking and even what could be considered assault?

And besides, the law and personal morality are two very different things. Have you ever read anything by Ayn Rand? Please do, and then tell me whether that is borrowed from the Abrahamaic religions.

while the dead sea scrolls were around 7 thousand years old.
Nope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls
According to carbon dating, textual analysis, and handwriting analysis the documents were written at various times between the middle of the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD. At least one document has a carbon date range of 21 BC–AD 61. The Nash Papyrus from Egypt, containing a copy of the Ten Commandments, is the only other Hebrew document of comparable antiquity.
That makes it somewhere between 2200 and 2000 years.

and does anybody else realized how the common law, is based off the bible? anyone?
It's based on a lot of things... A little bit of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi), and a little bit of that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_law)... Heck, even a dash of good old fashioned roman law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law), can you believe it :p

lets see, @Madnestan "for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." thats utter bullshit, if anything religion keeps good people from doing evil things.

You need to study history more. Religion has been used as an excuse to do some pretty horrible things - while the people doing them were capable of convincing themselves they were acting out "Gods will" - in other words: doing good.

@neu leonstein: without religion, or in other words with out a higher power, wed have no reason to prove ourselves. I could do anything i wanted, and it wouldnt be wrong, because who gives a fuck what other people think, they are just other people, they dont matter to me.

You can easily base a moral system on "lets treat others like I would wish to be treated". Unless you are enormously powerful such a system is in fact beneficial - while you cannot smack your neighbours head in and rob his corpse when you feel like it - the same is true for him.
God is not needed to make such a system work - though having something to scare others with does help.

The Hindu temple is only 3 thouasand or so years old. while the dead sea scrolls were around 7 thousand years old.
:D
If that had been true, it would have been an extremely fun bit of trivia to point out to the "The earth is no older than 6,000 years"-crowd of Christians....

Ill tell you why you have morals, cause you live in a place that contains a common moralistic law, which was derived from religious teachings, so in a sense you claim to have values, but your taking borrowed capita from christians and jews.

Actually, I've invented my own moral system.

It and the Bible have numerous disagreements.

I think a great example of all this is the movie "Bend it like Becham". The hindu daughter wants to date a Euro guy, and play football, (i dont call it soccor even if i am american, amrican foot ball should be called pussy rugby) THE PARENTS! refuse to do anything European. they refuse to allow her to play football or anything like that. Y cause they refuse to intergrate into the British society? the question is Y? if you dont want to adapt to the culture there, DONT COME! stay where ure culture is the majority of the Populations culture

Actually it was a Sikh daughter, completely different religions. Anyway back on topic, Different culture marriages do work. My uncles is Sikh his wife Christian and they get on grat together and you can see they love each other. Also cultural intergrationis a good thing and is something I would want to see more of. I can understand why the parents in that movie where like that, my nans exactly the same but it doesn't stop me..

Another thread about the Banana Republic formerly known as "The Netherlands"... Personally, i don't effin care how many muslims we have over here, as long as they abide by the constitution and not start telling me how i should live my life. So far, save a few, they haven't.

In the meanwhile we have a bunch of dipshit politicians like Geert Wilders and Rita Verdonk who are creating a problem that doesn't exist, to get more votes from these dumbasses living in cities like Rotterdam who suddenly fear their neighbors for being muslims, and are more than happy to sell out their civil rights to feel protected from this so-called "asylum-seeker problem", while in the meanwhile the only thing taking place are a bunch of people with kids who happened to not be in posession of the right papers to be locked in prison, or even worse, like the fire that happened in the Schiphol refugee prison which left 11 as crispy critters.... You should've read some mainstream internet forums around here. people were rejoicing in the death of 11 "unwanted" folks....

Fuck this shite.... Tolerant country my arse. Maybe compared to Germany, aye. in 1939....

Speaking about Germany, Might even not be bad idea, have the city of Nijmegen, where i live, join Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Cheers,
Clint.

without religion wed have no value system, chew on that thought for a while.
Look, pal, just because you are a psychopath doesn't mean we all are. You may need to be bribed or threatened by some super-powered invisible space monster, but some of us are quite capable of comprehending morality without supernatural blackmail.

The girl in "Bend it Like Beckham" is Sikh, not Hindu, both in the movie and in reality. That may seem nitpicky and i know it has nothing to do with the thread, but i wanted to point it out.

I'm an Agnostic, but i still have morals. Just like most religious people, i think murder, rape, child molestation, etc. are wrong. I do try to abide by the golden rule, do unto others, which is a Christian belief, but i don't believe in it because The Bible says i should. I believe in it due to simple empathy. I think about how something would make me feel, and then use that to judge whether or not i should do it to someone else. I don't need God for that.

I haven't been to church since i was a kid, and i remember nothing about the sermons. My extended family on my mom's side is very religious, but my parents aren't, and i was never raised in a remotely religious way, my mom only took us to church because she felt she should make my grandma happy. She took us a handful of times then realized she needed to do what made her happy and we stopped going. Most of my morality is actually the complete opposite of what many religions teach, with the exception of my opinions on murder and stuff.

Speaking about Germany, Might even not be bad idea, have the city of Nijmegen, where i live, join Nordrhein-Westfalen.


Question: considering you are living a sheltered life in a reasonably peaceful community and not in one of the "problem zones", how can you be so sure the problem is being exaggerated ?

Another thread about the Banana Republic formerly known as "The Netherlands"... Personally, i don't effin care how many muslims we have over here, as long as they abide by the constitution and not start telling me how i should live my life. So far, save a few, they haven't.

In the meanwhile we have a bunch of dipshit politicians like Geert Wilders and Rita Verdonk who are creating a problem that doesn't exist, to get more votes from these dumbasses living in cities like Rotterdam who suddenly fear their neighbors for being muslims, and are more than happy to sell out their civil rights to feel protected from this so-called "asylum-seeker problem", while in the meanwhile the only thing taking place are a bunch of people with kids who happened to not be in posession of the right papers to be locked in prison, or even worse, like the fire that happened in the Schiphol refugee prison which left 11 as crispy critters.... You should've read some mainstream internet forums around here. people were rejoicing in the death of 11 "unwanted" folks....

Fuck this shite.... Tolerant country my arse. Maybe compared to Germany, aye. in 1939....

Speaking about Germany, Might even not be bad idea, have the city of Nijmegen, where i live, join Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Cheers,
Clint.
Hear, hear!
Totally agreed.

Question: considering you are living a sheltered life in a reasonably peaceful community and not in one of the "problem zones", how can you be so sure the problem is being exaggerated ?

Nijmegen is the eight largest city in the Netherlands, city population 160,500, metropolitan population 411,900. (of which 13,600 in Germany, and 398,300 in the Netherlands) Muslim population in Nijmegen proper is around 23,000 or, around 14% of the population. In my neighborhood it's well in excess of 50% (for the people familliar with Nijmegen, i live in "De Wolfskuil". I've lived in Rotterdam (Charlois) as well, and aye, i've had a gun pulled at me once over there. It was by a white (native) Dutchman...

I think i know where i'm talking about... ;)

Besides that, if i have a problem with someone, i'll sort it out myself, instead of voting for some 3rd Reich politician...

lets see, @Madnestan "for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." thats utter bullshit, if anything religion keeps good people from doing evil things.


@neu leonstein: without religion, or in other words with out a higher power, wed have no reason to prove ourselves. I could do anything i wanted, and it wouldnt be wrong, because who gives a fuck what other people think, they are just other people, they dont matter to me.

But a God saying it was wrong? think about it.

and does anybody else realized how the common law, is based off the bible? anyone?

Religion only divides people, like patriotism.

Religion puts god before people. Which is stupid especially seeing as there is no god. Imagine how offensive that is to a real human being, to have you mumbo jumbo types burbling on about how god told you not to eat pork or only eat fish on a Friday or wear a hat. God didn't tell you a damn thing, it was some mad old bastard who claimed to be talking to god and lied to a bunch of dummys. It's the oldest trick in the book, you've been conned.

Also the Hindu religion is the oldest religion, everyone was a Hindu once. Followed by Bon which is where the buddhists stole all there good ideas from.

BTW if you got a sweet job in Kuwait working for one of your republican chums in haliburton would you embrace Islam and speak Arabic, after all that's the culture of the country and if you don't like it...

My memories from preschool math seem to suggest that when FrP represents the majority of the voters, as opposed to the largest minority of the voters, they no longer need the support of any other parties.

That will be a sad day... A nice little nation subjected to a democratically elected wrecking-ball.

You know that no party ever gets majority by itself. Besides people not voting for FrP doesnt mean they arent concerned about immigration, such as one of my friends who voted for AP.
About your second remark, maybe you'd like to explain it little further for me and for the other readers in the thread? Why would FrP wreck anything? Oh and please dont mention about "the" poster. Racism is an idiology and facts can not be racist. Their point was valid and they are right. Immigrants are hugely over-represented at crime statistics...And not just meterialistic crimes (crimes done for money)...Have you seen this?

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

Yup. Democracy has plenty potential to be a tool of oppression. Just because dictatorships are worse doesn't make democracy good.

You are arguing against democracy now? I though you were a pc people....

Well, if it holds a majority, how can it be ignored by the other parties?

It is the biggest party as of now, but still doesnt hold majority...

You say that people should be deported because of their beliefs and wanting to preserve their culture, or not abiding by YOUR rules. First of all, most of us muslim immigrants have lived in a conservative environment, and others in a dictatorship soiceties where government bothers them A LOT.

Second of all, they have been living there for just a few years. How can you expect them to forget about their culture and COMPLETELY abide by your rules. The solution is education and patience.

Hostility will only make them hate you more. You say 64% of Dutch do no want muslims. Well, "natives" have always been hostile to immigrants, for they fear that immigrants "destroy" their ways of lives. It has always been, but after somet time, everything turned out to be OK. For example, the Irish in US who came in 1850's faced with extreme patronizing from the "natives." After a two or three decades, everything turned out to be ok.

Thridly, why do you allow them into your country if you do not want them? you could just say no at the embassies, or check them for more backgrounds and see if they caused any trouble or have been in jail. That is the way US does it, and no problems here from Muslims what so ever. You do not see Americans complaining in newspapers wanting Muslims to be deported, do you? (maybe some, but very few). There are 7 million muslims in America, nearly all of them are very well-educated and cause no troubles.


I honestly dont know. The public opinion towards mass immigration is skeptical in most, maybe all countries. And even if we move beyond culture, religion, race, all that, there is the issue of unemployement. Germany got 10% unemployement rate but still gets something like 200,000 immigrants per year. How the goverment lets this if there is too high unemployement already? Leftist say all those equality stuff but how is it equal to give dirty jobs to immigrants while germans get by welfare? Am I the only one who thinks this is paradoxal?



Besidess, Europeans have always been known to hatred and fear of Islam. Want proof? Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. Even now you hate even more and want us destroyed. If you do not want them, why do you let them in the first place? And from this hatred and racism, how can you expect them from wanting to like you? This will cause them to hate you more.

Europeans?Tolerance?????? These are two words that do not go well in history. First you colonize a whole continent then take them to slavery; then you persecute the Jews for many centuries; then you fuck everybody up with your imperialism; then you start two world wars that drag the whole world into it; then you create "ideologies" that mess everybody up. And now, You want Islam destroyed and claim it is violent. Now, are Muslims tolerant or you??


Well...Norway is invaded by Danes, Swedes and then Germans. I dont keep any grudge to them. Past is past. Besides, when muslims had power they attacked Europe too. ex: Ottoman Empire, Moors in Spain.
When it comes to immigration, I guess, I'm one of the most "right" people of the political spectrum. So when I say I dont hate muslims, it's safe to bet almost no european hates them. I'm just against their mass immigration. Other than that, rejoice, be happy, prosperious, make civilizations that'll stand to the test of time. Just do it outside Europe...



Muslims come to Europe in a VERY different environment. From politics to the way of life. How can you expect them to adopt so fastly?? and with all this hate and condescending. Not ALL muslims are like that. Do you see any Persian doing those stuff????If you generlize like this and hate us, why would I want to establish communication with you?

Why would I want to be friends with you when you treat the like of me like dirt?? Why would I want to adapt YOUR democracy that allows or fuels such attitudes???

Many 3rd generetion immigrants in Europe dont adapt. It's not just the issue of political background of 1st generation immigrants...

Can't they at least choose their religion?? By European culture, do you also mean converting to Christianity? I agree, they should learn the language and custom, if they want to live there. But, is it not a democracy and freedom of religion? You cannot expect them to FULLY abandon the practices of their forefathers and their culture.
<snip>


So you agree cultures are different. This is ok when muslims are like 1% of the population. But when they become 10% (in France and expected to go like 1/4 in a generation), they start to replace the local culture. That isn't a problem for somepeople but it is for me...

Well lets get one thing strait. Democracy itself has nothing to do with elected representatives. This is what we call a republic. Where the people elect representatives that are supposed to relate the peoples will to other representatives, who then vote with their little commune, which in a sense is majority rule. Cause who ever gets the most votes wins.

Democracy is EVERYONE is involved on the voting over issues, theres no president theres no senate, no congress. Every body votes over issues and decides. Republic is a more efficent but sometimes more hazardous system of democracy, cause its real easy to bribe officials.

But they both have the same core value. the Majority of people Win. Which ever have the most votes wins. And who ever wins wins, not oh i dont like this so ill do an N round what the people want and go to the courts and make their moral concious illegal. Its thats what most people want. thats what most people get. And guess what if you dont like it, no one is stopping you from leaving.

You are confusing direct democracy with democracy in general. France is a republic, UK, a constitutional monarch but they are both democratic. Ancient Greek city states used to practice direct democracy (but slaves and women werent allowed to vote, I think). Switzerland is the most close country to this, in modern times, I think. They get referendums on lots of stuff and the power is very localised (cantons).

Nijmegen is the eight largest city in the Netherlands, city population 160,500, metropolitan population 411,900. (of which 13,600 in Germany, and 398,300 in the Netherlands) Muslim population in Nijmegen proper is around 23,000 or, around 14% of the population. In my neighborhood it's well in excess of 50% (for the people familliar with Nijmegen, i live in "De Wolfskuil". I've lived in Rotterdam (Charlois) as well, and aye, i've had a gun pulled at me once over there. It was by a white (native) Dutchman...

I think i know where i'm talking about... ;)

Besides that, if i have a problem with someone, i'll sort it out myself, instead of voting for some 3rd Reich politician...

limiting immigration = 3rd Reich politician? :rolleyes:
If Nazis were sooo anti-immigrant, why did they import lots of slave labour to Germany? Nazis are so much more like capitalist bosses who use cheap immigrant labour then anti-immigrants...

You are arguing against democracy now? I though you were a pc people....

Every sane person is against direct democracy on a national scale, unless the nationn in question consists of a few 100 people at most. That is why the "democracies" and republics of this era tend to elect representatives and have constitutions.

Every sane person is against direct democracy on a national scale, unless the nationn in question consistes of a few 100 people at most. That is why the "democracies" and republics of this era tend to elect representatives and have constitutions.

He was arguing against democracy in general....
Direct democracy is unpractical in modern times but semi-direct democracy does very well in Switzerland....

He was arguing against democracy in general....
Direct democracy is unpractical in modern times but semi-direct democracy does very well in Switzerland....
That however does not mean that one should not consider alternatives. Monarchies and dictatorships do have benefits. It is in fact possible that people are happier under such governments - I wonder if there is any serious research on that.

That however does not mean that one should not consider alternatives. Monarchies and dictatorships do have benefits. It is in fact possible that people are happier under such governments - I wonder if there is any serious research on that.

I'd say chineese are much more happier than indians. However, dictatorship depends too much on dictator. If the dictator sucks, you are stuck with him for like at least 20 years...

I'd say chineese are much more happier than indians. However, dictatorship depends too much on dictator. If the dictator sucks, you are stuck with him for like at least 20 years...
Yeah, that's the thing: if you get a terrific person running the show, I'm sure living in a dictatorship could really rule. But how many terrific people do you know who are out to rule with an iron fist?

limiting immigration = 3rd Reich politician? :rolleyes:
If Nazis were sooo anti-immigrant, why did they import lots of slave labour to Germany? Nazis are so much more like capitalist bosses who use cheap immigrant labour then anti-immigrants...

Well, locking people up in substandard prisons for not having the proper papers, or even at the mere suspicion of having fake papers, like the Libyan dude who burned in the prisonfire as well, and happened to be a tourist visiting some family in Belgium, and the Dutch authorities apparently couldn't grasp a Libyan tourist...

There are also plenty of known cases where entire families are locked up in prisons, sometimes for up to 18 months, in cells designed for 6 week stays.

This is not just about "limiting" immigration anymore, the same politician, Rita Verdonk, also considered sending Christians and Homosexuals back to Iran, saying that if they wouldn't practice their faith or sexuality they would be fine, she extradited political refugees back to their homecountries (Syria, Congo and Angola) together with the full asylumdossiers sent to the respective local authorities, and told confidential information to the press concerning an 18-year old girl wanting to finish her high school here instead of Sarajevo (who wasn't completely honest herself, but a MP shouldn't walk up to the press and give them her confidential dossier)

Both the UN (UNICEF) and Amnesty International have condemned the Dutch practices when it comes up to dealing with foreigners, and i know of plenty of expats who are hating it here, and think it's one of the worst places in the EU to be an expat. (A Brazilian friend of mine is happy when his course is over in 2 years so he can move somewhere else. He knows a wee bit of Dutch now after 3 years here and is disgusted about the way people talk about immigrants here)

The present situation in the Netherlands is comparable to that in Germany in 1936-37 (before the Kristallnacht, sans nazi-symbolism/worship), and hopefully things will get better after the next election. If they don't, i'll be emigrating myself and i know of more folks planning on doing the same.

of course they do,it is(nederland) one of the most hypocrit nation in the EU...
The founder of capitalism,as well as neutrality.:p
of course if you don't know Bontekoe you will just pick it als an other nation bashin...
But i'm all about sarcasm,i'm going of topic
The present situation in the Netherlands is comparable to that in Germany in 1936-37 (before the Kristallnacht, sans nazi-symbolism/worship), and hopefully things will get better after the next election. If they don't, i'll be emigrating myself and i know of more folks planning on doing the same.

i'll go to Berlin.
at least ,can we make a stand...
Seriously it will not get beter.
JAMMER GENOEG