NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm just wondering how much evidence people need until they believe in a god.

ADDED: Options have been arranged from least amount needed to most amount needed to believe in God.

ADDED: Unfortunately, I forgot to add a "someone claiming they are God" option. My apologies, we'll have to make do with what we've got.

ADDED: Add to the beginning (or end) of the last option, "Short of altering my free will and choice"

Oh, good thread question. I'd like to know what kind of evidence it would take for people to stop believing in God, too. Or to switch religions and believe in a different God.

Too see god.

What will it take for me to believe in god? As in...the Christian one, right?
A lot.
Particularly, I'd like followers of said god to stop being so angry at me for things I believe...
...and some good, sound, logical reasons wouldn't hurt, either.

I don't buy into the whole "faith" schtick.

Isn't the whole purpose of God that you have to have faith? That you have to believe in something WITHOUT proof?

Tangible evidence, not formed naturally.

For instance, if you people find that boat, awesome. You have a boat. If you people find an little wooden box that kills most every one that touches it, instantly, I'll believe. Until then, I'm good with fact.

Any god?

Their appearance, in front of every single person on the planet, at once, while saying:

"I, that is, this sentient, omnipotent deity you see in front of you, am god"

Up until then, there b'aint no god!

One BILLION dollars

Any god?

Their appearance, in front of every single person on the planet, at once, while saying:

"I, that is, this sentient, omnipotent deity you see in front of you, am god"

Up until then, there b'aint no god!

That would fall under "Somebody or something doing things which I deem impossible within my realm of comprehension"

Isn't the whole purpose of God that you have to have faith? That you have to believe in something WITHOUT proof?

I have faith in the power of Acne creams to clear up my skin. Does it? No. See what I'm getting at?

EDIT: Spelling error... yeah...

lots of kittens.:eek:

I have faith in the power of Acme creams to clear up my skin. Does it? No. See what I'm getting at?
Didn't cartoons teach you anything? Never trust Acme.

Erm... talking to/seeing Him?

I will either live as usual with my educated guess that God in all likelihood doesn't exist, or I will know God exists because it has somehow been proven to me. But I will never believe in God -- of that, I'm positive.

God: "Hi, I'm God."
Me: "I believe it. Neat!"

Erm... talking to/seeing Him?

How do you differentiate that it's God you're talking to? That's the essence of my poll question.

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. I don't have any NEED to believe in a god... either gods exist or they don't. My belief has no bearing on the situation, so "proof" is not really an issue for me.

God: "Hi, I'm God."
Me: "I believe it. Neat!"
http://www.titane.ca/concordia/dfar251/igod/main.html

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. I don't have any NEED to believe in a god... either gods exist or they don't. My belief has no bearing on the situation, so "proof" is not really an issue for me.

Yes, but what will it take for you to believe in God?

If Jesus appears in front of you and starts doing magic, then will you believe?
If you die, yet you continue living, with a bearded man appearing in front of you and claiming credit for your continued living, then will you believe?

This question applies to everyone, including those that already believe in God, because they can say what it took for them to believe in God; or if that information is now obsolete (meaning that they would no longer believe in God for the same reason they started), then what's keeping them believing in God.

How do you differentiate that it's God you're talking to? That's the essence of my poll question.

I sorta... just.... did. When you KNOW beyond a doubt, just by hearing it, well... oh, and not being a physical presence but definitely being there always helps.

And no, I'm not schizophrenic :rolleyes:

I sorta... just.... did. When you KNOW beyond a doubt, just by hearing it, well...

How do you know? What makes you know?

How do you know? What makes you know?

ADDED (not edited, because it's probably too late to edit): I think you are alluding to God altering your senses to make you believe he is God. Thanks, that was another thing I missed in the poll. The first post has now been altered.

Faith. And taking a good look around me, I'd say he did a pretty good job on life, nature and the universe as well. That always helps ;)

If God really was such a pompous and self-loving egoist that he required my worshipping to not send me to hell, he's not worth worshipping. Case closed. Proof is irrelevant, even though I'd even see anything worth the word it wouldn't change this basic conclusion.

ADDED (not edited, because it's probably too late to edit): I think you are alluding to God altering your senses to make you believe he is God. Thanks, that was another thing I missed in the poll. The first post has now been altered.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yes, but what will it take for you to believe in God?

If Jesus appears in front of you and starts doing magic, then will you believe?
If you die, yet you continue living, with a bearded man appearing in front of you and claiming credit for your continued living, then will you believe?

This question applies to everyone, including those that already believe in God, because they can say what it took for them to believe in God; or if that information is now obsolete (meaning that they would no longer believe in God for the same reason they started), then what's keeping them believing in God.

Jesus doing magic tricks only proves Jesus is a magician, but I get what you are after.

I can't think of any proof that would satisfy me that the entity issuing the proof was the christian god. The idea that such a character exists as depicted by modern and ancient legend is too far fetched for me.

... an OMNIPOTENT god is impossible, -the Omnipotence paradox...
ALSO- there's no proof
-the Christian Bible is filled with things that contradict each other
-The stupidity of christians worldwide
- Evolution VS. Garden Of Eden...
millions of other things

If god gave me a blowjob, surely the supreme quality of the job he would do would leave me in no doubt that He was the Creator?

Although it would be pretty weird to get head off a guy. Still who can refuse God when he wants your cock in His Mouth.

Isn't the whole purpose of God that you have to have faith? That you have to believe in something WITHOUT proof?
I sure don't consider that the purpose of God. To me that's just an unfortunate side-effect of proof not being discovered yet. It wouldn't be too Godlike if he ceased to exist upon the discovery of proof!!

If there is a God (which I believe there is), it just stands to reason that the fact will be provable at some point. It not being proven yet doesn't deter me, since there are many things which have taken a while, sometimes a very long while, to find scientific proof of.

As for an omniscient god...no, I don't buy it. I think some things look like mistakes or changes of direction because *gasp* they are! He/she/it could still be way more uber than a human...enough to still qualify as a god, IMO.

If god gave me a blowjob, surely the supreme quality of the job he would do would leave me in no doubt that He was the Creator?
I wouldn't take a blowjob from a old hairy man, but Krishna, DAMN! All those hands... blue skin... mmmmmm-pie... ^^

Should she gave me a blowjo, I'd believe in her. Not that I'd start praying though.

Well, I'm glad the poll included at least one answer I could check.

Isn't the whole purpose of God that you have to have faith? That you have to believe in something WITHOUT proof?
Yeah, but the poll is aimed at atheists.

To the best of my knowledge, I am to paranoid about being controlled to admit that any such written B.S. or Paranormal activity is the result some all-powerful god. I would always look to try and find out who was perpatrating the hoax, and find some way to covince myself that it could all somehow rationally be explained.

jesus returning on clouds of glory.

the clouds part. jesus descends, god's voice is heard saying something like "this is my son blah blah blah"

When science tells me to.

I don't think that anything could make be believe in God. Even if a guy claiming to be God tried to convince me by causing miracles to happen, such as turning my cat into a giant monster fifty times its original size, I still wouldn't believe him. I'd just think that I was completely insane.

Even if God does exist I refuse to believe in Him. Just out of spite and laziness, the two driving forces of evolution.

I guess he'll look pretty stupid with my cum in his beard and that hurt look on his face.

Even if God does exist I refuse to believe in Him. Just out of spite and laziness, the two driving forces of evolution.

I guess he'll look pretty stupid with my cum in his beard and that hurt look on his face.
So you want a guy as God, just to.. see your cum on his fac... nevermind.

Since omnipotence is logically impossible, I can never believe in a being with such a characteristic.

What will it take for you to believe in God?

I would need to drink at least two gallons of lead-based paint.

I don't find any of the options on the poll satisfactory. I believe in God because to me it is logical. That is why.

If Jesus comes around to my place & turn water into wine for me, I'll believe it.

I don't find any of the options on the poll satisfactory. I believe in God because to me it is logical. That is why.

This poll is not for people who are already religious, this is asking atheists what it would take if for them to be convinced of a god

Isn't the whole purpose of God that you have to have faith? That you have to believe in something WITHOUT proof?
They say that. However the people and saints in the bible had proof in the form of divine intervention and miracles on a daily basis. Now it is conveniently different. Consider it an excuse.

I wouldn't beieve in God. I picked the last option, because it is closest, but really, I wouldn't. Even if God's existence were proven, I wouldn't believe in him. Were he to come to me, and say "Believe, Bitch, Or I will STRIKE you!!" I would just tell him to fuck off. I refuse to believe in any God who is enough of an asshole to create this universe.

I would have to see the asshole. And he must be an asshole because he seems to get weird pleasure out of seeing us or helping us fuck the world. Hes a real class act. Come to think of it, if I were to see Id punch in face and call him a bitch. But thats just me

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. I don't have any NEED to believe in a god... either gods exist or they don't. My belief has no bearing on the situation, so "proof" is not really an issue for me.
Ah, but theres the catch. the writers of most religions anticipated this approach and so they wrote in that you will spend a very long time in a significant deal of pain after you die (after anyone can prove it) should you fail to beleive. Basically, those religions contest that it is indeed your concern. At this point, you should ask for proof. If they can't provide it, then don't worry. The whole process usually takes less than 10 minutes with any given religious representative (with varied results depending upon the gullibilty of the inquirer concerned).

I wouldn't beieve in God. I picked the last option, because it is closest, but really, I wouldn't. Even if God's existence were proven, I wouldn't believe in him. Were he to come to me, and say "Believe, Bitch, Or I will STRIKE you!!" I would just tell him to fuck off. I refuse to believe in any God who is enough of an asshole to create this universe.

I would have to see the asshole. And he must be an asshole because he seems to get weird pleasure out of seeing us or helping us fuck the world. Hes a real class act. Come to think of it, if I were to see Id punch in face and call him a bitch. But thats just me

Whoa, whoa, whoa! What's with the hate?

I'm not necessarily talking about the Christian God, whom you have a right to denounce since he is so evil, I'm talking about a generic creator. You have no reason to be mad at your creator, he has given you life (and if you don't like it, kill yourself right now*) and he probably doesn't care anyways.

* - don't

is it that you shut your minds to the subject, or you've tried believing already, it's pretty easy to talk badly about something you've never experienced. Does that mean you don't ever try any food you've never had before? Are you afraid you'll like it?

Whoa, whoa, whoa! What's with the hate?

I'm not necessarily talking about the Christian God, whom you have a right to denounce since he is so evil, I'm talking about a generic creator. You have no reason to be mad at your creator, he has given you life (and if you don't like it, kill yourself right now*) and he probably doesn't care anyways.

* - don't
It doesnt matter if he is a christian god. The point is if he created us and is watching over us and he either approves of the bullshit that happens here on earth or is powerless to stop it, either way he is an asshole.

It doesnt matter if he is a christian god. The point is if he created us and is watching over us and he either approves of the bullshit that happens here on earth or is powerless to stop it, either way he is an asshole.
Indifference /= approval. The Christian God made a promise with man; not to meddle in his affairs at all, until Judgement Day. He is keeping His end on the bargain.

Indifference /= approval. The Christian God made a promise with man; not to meddle in his affairs at all, until Judgement Day. He is keeping His end on the bargain.
I think that was code for, I made you all evil and I want to watch you kill each other. So dance my little play things. Im guessing thats what he was thinking when he made that little promise.

I think that was code for, I made you all evil and I want to watch you kill each other. So dance my little play things. Im guessing thats what he was thinking when he made that little promise.
No. He made the promise on the basis that humans desired non-interference, and He thought that it was now time for them to flourish on their own. Humans have free will. How they use it is their choice. Consequences exist, either way.

Why do the thread options refer to a male god? I think the Christian/Jewish/Islamic religions are just silly, if I ever was to believe in a god, it wouldn't be that one. :rolleyes: How do you know that, assuming a god exists, that it isn't female or asexual? asexual makes the most sense to me, unless of course there are multiple gods (can't rule that out either :p )

I would believe in (a) god(s) if
a.) It would be completely impossible to explain some phenomenon without a God (e.g. if, no matter how many models scientists tried, or how much research they did, they could not find out what caused the gravitational forces between masses)

b.) Some discovery was made that proved that some kind of godlike force existed (the killing-people box someone mentioned earlier would be a good example)

No. He made the promise on the basis that humans desired non-interference, and He thought that it was now time for them to flourish on their own. Humans have free will. How they use it is their choice. Consequences exist, either way.
Wait, you mean to tell me that the all knowing, all powerful god couldnt tell that we werent ready to have the training wheels taken off. Surely he could have seen that coming.

A Decanter of Endless Panthers.

is it that you shut your minds to the subject, or you've tried believing already, it's pretty easy to talk badly about something you've never experienced. Does that mean you don't ever try any food you've never had before? Are you afraid you'll like it?
It means I've never beleived something I knew wasn't true. Not since Santa Clause, when I used to whore out my intellectual integrity to prolong receiving extra presents from Santa.

Alan Rickman coming into my bedroom in a burst of flames.

Wait, you mean to tell me that the all knowing, all powerful god couldnt tell that we werent ready to have the training wheels taken off. Surely he could have seen that coming.
He made a commitment. Man is meant to have free will. He let him exercise it and savour the consequences. An essential part of growing up. And, in any event, in the grander scope of things, life on this earth is irrelevant. Heaven is eternal. Temporary suffering for eternal bliss doesn't sound too bad to me.

I'm just wondering how much evidence people need until they believe in a god.

ADDED: Options have been arranged from least amount needed to most amount needed to believe in God.

ADDED: Unfortunately, I forgot to add a "someone claiming they are God" option. My apologies, we'll have to make do with what we've got.

ADDED: Add to the beginning (or end) of the last option, "Short of altering my free will and choice"
Complete, concrete, undeniable, solid, absolutely postively accurate PROOF. Nothing short of that will convince me. Ever.

He made a commitment. Man is meant to have free will. He let him exercise it and savour the consequences. An essential part of growing up. And, in any event, in the grander scope of things, life on this earth is irrelevant. Heaven is eternal. Temporary suffering for eternal bliss doesn't sound too bad to me.
My point is why would he make the commitment if he knew that humans werent ready to handle it. If life on earth is irrelevant then why even create us in the 1st place, why not just let us be in heaven. And if life here is so bad and heaven is so great, why not play in traffic or stick metal objects into electrical outlets and see what happens. Not so much suicide since thats a sin, but more an "accident". Also what is heaven exactly?

Repeatable experiments, falsifiable hypotheses, no different than anything else.

My point is why would he make the commitment if he knew that humans werent ready to handle it. If life on earth is irrelevant then why even create us in the 1st place, why not just let us be in heaven.
He actually did. Garden of Eden? Yes. Humans had the choice not to eat from the Forbidden Fruit. They did so anyway. Being on Earth is a learning process. He did provide guidance at first. The best way for one to learn is to make their own mistakes. A wise creator surely knows this.

And if life here is so bad and heaven is so great, why not play in traffic or stick metal objects into electrical outlets and see what happens. Not so much suicide since thats a sin, but more an "accident". Also what is heaven exactly?
The whole suicide is a sin thing is linked to the fact that God only can take life. Personally I think it is something the Church developed over the centuries to ensure people don't kill themselves. Oh, and a reason not to do so would be that you could be destined for Hell, depending on choices you've made which have distanced you from God. As for "what is Heaven", that is beyond me.

I think there should be another option added for the very large majority of religious leaders that have existed over the years.
"I would beleive in god in exchange for money/power".
I would take this option. In fact, I plan to take this option for a day or two. When I go to Italy to meet all of my family there I plan to do my Catholic confirmation in return for customary gifts of money from my newly aquainted family. :p
Seriously though, I would completely devote myself to religion in a time/place in which it could offer good chances of REAL power and money. Like Europe in the middle ages. Now religious organisations are denuded versions of what they once were. Islam still has a bit of swing to it in some regions of the globe though, but it's just not the same. :(

I cannot observe or understand omnipotence, and therefore it is impossible for any divine being that may or may not exist to proove that it is omnipotent or ominscient to me. For that reason, it is impossible for me to beleive or disbeleive in an omnipotent or omniscient God.

I would need to drink at least two gallons of lead-based paint.

I was thinking something along the lines of being trapped in a poorly ventillated room with several gallons of model airplane glue smeared on all available surfaces, but I think the lead-based paint idea would work too.

It's either that or eating several pounds of powdered nutmeg.

He actually did. Garden of Eden? Yes. Humans had the choice not to eat from the Forbidden Fruit. They did so anyway. Being on Earth is a learning process. He did provide guidance at first. The best way for one to learn is to make their own mistakes. A wise creator surely knows this.
A wise creator would not let us go free when we werent ready. He should have stepped in on the whole forbidden fruit thing. It could have saved countless human lives, no? He sure seems to do things to make our exit from this earth easy.

The whole suicide is a sin thing is linked to the fact that God only can take life. Personally I think it is something the Church developed over the centuries to ensure people don't kill themselves.
My point was that if this earth was so bad and heaven was so great, why not not be careful in your day to day life and hope you die so you can get to heaven.
As for "what is Heaven", that is beyond me.
then why are you so exicted to go there?

A wise creator would not let us go free when we werent ready. He should have stepped in on the whole forbidden fruit thing. It could have saved countless human lives, no? He sure seems to do things to make our exit from this earth easy.
What is ready then? You cannot breastfeed a person until they are 50. Death is inevitable; whether it is by old age, disease etc. Death is our own fault for severing our link with God by eating the Forbidden Fruit. He set out the rules and the consequences of breaking them, we did so anyway. He is now letting us taste free will in all its glory, thus treating us as intelligent beings.

My point was that if this earth was so bad and heaven was so great, why not not be careful in your day to day life and hope you die so you can get to heaven.
You could do that I suppose.

then why are you so exicted to go there?
I find life on earth mundane. That is why.

What is ready then? You cannot breastfeed a person until they are 50. Death is inevitable; whether it is by old age, disease etc. Death is our own fault for severing our link with God by eating the Forbidden Fruit. He set out the rules and the consequences of breaking them, we did so anyway. He is now letting us taste free will in all its glory, thus treating us as intelligent beings.
I think ready would be when you know, we arent evil and willing to kill each other and do horrible things to one another. Til then we should be on a short leash. Death is only my fault if I kill myself. I didnt severe any link with any god because I didnt eat the damn fruit, that bitch eve did. I shouldnt have to pay for her mistake. on a side note, how old do you think the earth is?

You could do that I suppose.
That would suck, we are programmed to want to live, it is our instinct.

I find life on earth mundane. That is why.
Im sorry you feel that way. Perhaps if you spent less time preparing for what awaits in the next world and focus on the world here and now, it would be more exicting.

Death is our own fault for severing our link with God by eating the Forbidden Fruit.Then what's the reason that animals and plants die, too??

I think ready would be when you know, we arent evil and willing to kill each other and do horrible things to one another. Til then we should be on a short leash. Death is only my fault if I kill myself. I didnt severe any link with any god because I didnt eat the damn fruit, that bitch eve did. I shouldnt have to pay for her mistake. on a side note, how old do you think the earth is?
That is what you then, personally, think. Death was not a punishment; it was a consequence of losing the immortality that proximity to God brought. Adam and Eve both knew full well that their progeny would suffer as a result of their disobedience. They went ahead with it anyway. Blame them. As for the Earth's age, I'd put it at around a couple of billions of years old. Not sure.

That would suck, we are programmed to want to live, it is our instinct.
It is indeed. I am just saying, one could do that if they so please.

Im sorry you feel that way. Perhaps if you spent less time preparing for what awaits in the next world and focus on the world here and now, it would be more exicting.
I'm not spending time on it...I am just thinking that there must be something better than this dull reality we inhabit.

Fergi America']Then what's the reason that animals and plants die, too??
It is their cycle. They were not created to enter Heaven to begin with.

I think it is a little sick to believe humans are so important they are allowed "eternal bliss" while kitties and flowers are doomed to an eternity of infinite nothingness. Why would God create beauty and wonder if he did not find it worthy of a domain in heaven?

He made a commitment. Man is meant to have free will. He let him exercise it and savour the consequences. An essential part of growing up. And, in any event, in the grander scope of things, life on this earth is irrelevant. Heaven is eternal. Temporary suffering for eternal bliss doesn't sound too bad to me.

He actually did. Garden of Eden? Yes. Humans had the choice not to eat from the Forbidden Fruit. They did so anyway. Being on Earth is a learning process. He did provide guidance at first. The best way for one to learn is to make their own mistakes. A wise creator surely knows this.


The whole suicide is a sin thing is linked to the fact that God only can take life. Personally I think it is something the Church developed over the centuries to ensure people don't kill themselves. Oh, and a reason not to do so would be that you could be destined for Hell, depending on choices you've made which have distanced you from God. As for "what is Heaven", that is beyond me.

Funny how you are stating these as if they are all indisputable facts.

Tell me, why do you believe these things (I am assuming you do since you are arguing from that standpoint). Let's just take the Garden of Eden. Why do you believe that there was once a Garden of Eden and man ruined his chance by eating a forbidden fruit?

All you have on that is a 2000 year old book and popular opinion that it is true.

Believing God is probably less of a feat, since you may interpret anything as God. Heck, some people interpret existence as proof of God.

However, believing in this specific story probably means that you got it from the Bible. So why do you uphold this story as fact when have only a 2000-year-old book and popular opinion to go on it?

For me to believe such a story would require me to actually witness it, I guess your standards for belief are lower.

So, then, do you also base your belief in God on a thousands-year-old book? Or do you need a little more?

*snip*
Whoah...I never used any of that as a justification for my beliefs. You assumed that. This was to clarify something on the Christian God. Thus, it is based on the presumption that the Bible is fact.

I believe in God's existence because I feel it is right. I don't think our existence is entirely random. I also believe the God the Bible speaks of is true. I am not out to convert. Merely stating my own beliefs.

Whoah...I never used any of that as a justification for my beliefs. You assumed that. This was to clarify something on the Christian God. Thus, it is based on the presumption that the Bible is fact.

I believe in God's existence because I feel it is right. I don't think our existence is entirely random. I also believe the God the Bible speaks of is true. I am not out to convert. Merely stating my own beliefs.

Sorry to single you out, but I'm curious: why do you believe the Bible?

What made you think one day "even though this is thousands of years old, I'm going to believe it as fact"?

You have also stated that "I believe in God's existence bause I feel it is right. I don't think our existence is entirely random." Now how to you attribute that to the Bible? I can maybe understand why that'd make you think that there a god, but not why it made you believe in the Christian God specifically.

Sorry to single you out, but I'm curious: why do you believe the Bible?

What made you think one day "even though this is thousands of years old, I'm going to believe it as fact"?

You have also stated that "I believe in God's existence bause I feel it is right. I don't think our existence is entirely random." Now how to you attribute that to the Bible? I can maybe understand why that'd make you think that there a god, but not why it made you believe in the Christian God specifically.
I suppose it is again instinctual. I could choose to believe in any religion. I like the morals prescribed by Christianity best (that is, as Jesus taught them...not perversions thereof), and I do believe that the man called Jesus was Our Saviour incarnate. It is a matter of belief ultimately. Either way, I am rather agnostic about God's nature (beyond being Triune), so even if I am off the mark with Christianity, I believe in a power above us existing out there.

I suppose it is again instinctual. I could choose to believe in any religion. I like the morals prescribed by Christianity best (that is, as Jesus taught them...not perversions thereof), and I do believe that the man called Jesus was Our Saviour incarnate. It is a matter of belief ultimately. Either way, I am rather agnostic about God's nature (beyond being Triune), so even if I am off the mark with Christianity, I believe in a power above us existing out there.

Perfect. Thanks.

Well.. him coming down from heaven with a choir of angels and explaining his visions as outlined in the Bible might just do it. So would finding a nice rock formation bearing his signature (or "we apologise for the inconvenience") which can be shown to be genuine. Or any evidence that shows He had a hand in Creation, something that definately requires Him.

That is not the outside "comprehension" option though. Lots of things are outside my comprehension - like advanced plumbing. Doesn't mean I believe the plumber is God. Nor do I want the evidence to be incomprehensible - that would just mean I would not *know* if He existed or not.

IOW: I would believe when God gives me comprehensible evidence; I will interpret the second to last option to reflect this (though I disagree that that is more evidence than the ones above it).

Next question you should ask: assuming your demands for proof were satisfied, when would you start worshipping ?
My answer: if I liked Gods reasoning. Him being God is not enough reason.

I'm just wondering how much evidence people need until they believe in a god.

ADDED: Options have been arranged from least amount needed to most amount needed to believe in God.

ADDED: Unfortunately, I forgot to add a "someone claiming they are God" option. My apologies, we'll have to make do with what we've got.

ADDED: Add to the beginning (or end) of the last option, "Short of altering my free will and choice"
You have a fairly exhaustive and impressive poll selection there. Strangely enough, i find myself in the "other" category. :eek:
*bows*
I'm not being helpful here, though, so i would say that one: i'm skeptical about the caps-version "God" ya got here, so perhaps i'll just say "no, i don't believe in the judeo-christian god, nor do i want to, nor could my *soul* ever possibly get down on the floor and suck up to such an infant".
Hope that helps.
It's not so simple, either, since i'm not an atheist.

Ah,dammit. I clicked on the second to last option,because I thought it meant something else.

You should add personal and philosphical reflection and meditation.I don't know,I didn't really get my faith in God other than through asking myself and others and exploring the answers I got.

Can you have faith in God but not his followers?

Can you have faith in God but not his followers?
Same thread?

Why should I even bother to think about it?

If said God is omniscient, then this God should know what it would take to make me believe in him/her/it.

i believe there is something big, friendly and nontangable now. what i don't believe is that anything human knows their ass from a hole in the ground about it.

=^^=
.../\...

A blowjob. By god.

A blowjob. By god.

Interesting. Would I have to give you a blowjob to get you to believe in me? Did Maggie Thatcher have to give you a blowjob to get you to believe in her?

A blowjob. By god.

Hey hey hey, get your own blasphemy, He's my bitch.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11181785&postcount=28

Maybe we could spitroast the senile drunk old clown, you can give Him a reacharound, see how He likes that.

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Well I justspoke to him and He likes Bender from Futurama and he speaks in riddles

That is what you then, personally, think. Death was not a punishment; it was a consequence of losing the immortality that proximity to God brought. Adam and Eve both knew full well that their progeny would suffer as a result of their disobedience. They went ahead with it anyway. Blame them.
A God that makes me pay for some else's mistake doesnt seem very caring so I will blame God, not them.

As for the Earth's age, I'd put it at around a couple of billions of years old. Not sure.

Then that means Adam and Eve are a few billion years old since god created the world in 6days. Thus they lived with dinosaurs which the human species never did. So either they were really the earliest forms of humans, not capable of the amount of rational thinking we are, or there were just no dinosaurs. please clarify.

I'm not spending time on it...I am just thinking that there must be something better than this dull reality we inhabit.

What if theres not? What if you spent all this time looking forward to heaven instead of taking advantage of the time given to you on earth.

Ok but u can still have eternal life u just have to work a little harder at it.

Um 1 u don't know that humans didn't live with dinosaurs, infact there have been cave paintings, of dinosaur like animals. And many tales of behemoth like creatures.

Sry heard this from my professor applies good to what u just said.
"If there is a God, and you believe in God great u go to heaven, if there isn't a God, what have you lost? However if u don't believe there is a God, and there is you have lost quite a bit, and if you don't believe there is a God, and there isn't what have you gained?"

Sry heard this from my professor applies good to what u just said.
"If there is a God, and you believe in God great u go to heaven, if there isn't a God, what have you lost? However if u don't believe there is a God, and there is you have lost quite a bit, and if you don't believe there is a God, and there isn't what have you gained?"

That's why I worship a giant robot-planet who devours other worlds and sounds like a digitally altered Orson Welles. Just in case.

Um 1 u don't know that humans didn't live with dinosaurs, infact there have been cave paintings, of dinosaur like animals. And many tales of behemoth like creatures.So far, there have been now fossils that indicate this. Until there is any conclusive evidence in favor of that thesis, it doesn't hold water. Dinosaur-like doesn't mean dinosaurs. There were plenty of large animals that have died out by now that weren't dinosaurs that weren't around in the days of dinosaurs either. Behemoth-like creatures appearing in tales doesn't require any dinosaurs.

I'm just wondering how much evidence people need until they believe in a god.

Belgium winning the world cup *nods* :D

I suppose if he came down in a beam of light and tapped me on the shoulder with a winning lottery ticket...I might consider thinking about it.

I'm just wondering how much evidence people need until they believe in a god.

ADDED: Options have been arranged from least amount needed to most amount needed to believe in God.

ADDED: Unfortunately, I forgot to add a "someone claiming they are God" option. My apologies, we'll have to make do with what we've got.

ADDED: Add to the beginning (or end) of the last option, "Short of altering my free will and choice"
Given that I have yet to be presented with a testable working definition of "God," I'd say it's a bit premature for people to talk about proving the existence of God.

EDIT: If, as the poll seems to indicate, we are assuming that God is an omnipotent and omnicient being, then there is no possible way for its existence to be proven to me or any other human being. Hence, it would not be possible for somebody to use evidence to convince me.

That's why I worship a giant robot-planet who devours other worlds and sounds like a digitally altered Orson Welles. Just in case.

For a time... I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron. Now... you shall witness it's.... DISMEMBERMENT!

Two free prostitutes.

Two free prostitutes.
That would be two sex-slaves, then, since you don't want to have to pay them to have sex with you.

Wouldn't it be nicer to wish for two people who would want to have voluntary sex with you? I mean, while you're wishing for stuff, why not wish that everybody in the situation be having a good time?

None of the above. He would have to come up to me, introduce himself, then perform a miracle right in front of me.

I'm just wondering how much evidence people need until they believe in a god.

ADDED: Options have been arranged from least amount needed to most amount needed to believe in God.

ADDED: Unfortunately, I forgot to add a "someone claiming they are God" option. My apologies, we'll have to make do with what we've got.

ADDED: Add to the beginning (or end) of the last option, "Short of altering my free will and choice"

If he comes floating down on a cloud and programs my vcr before my very eyes I might start believing...Though, I'd probably turn myself in at a hospital and ask to be put in a padded cell.

"If there is a God, and you believe in God great u go to heaven, if there isn't a God, what have you lost? However if u don't believe there is a God, and there is you have lost quite a bit, and if you don't believe there is a God, and there isn't what have you gained?"

Depends. Is your God a jealous God ? Does he get upset and annoyed with you if you worship something other than Him ?
If so: good luck figuring out which of the thousands of religions is the right one. And which of the hundreds of subsects (e.g. protestant, catholic, calvinist etc when we are talking about the Christian religion) got it exactly right - if any. Otherwise you will burn harder than those silly nonbelievers who only get limbo.

Do you need the other flaws in Pascals wager (the thing you quoted) spelled out too ;) ?

Sry heard this from my professor applies good to what u just said.
"If there is a God, and you believe in God great u go to heaven, if there isn't a God, what have you lost? However if u don't believe there is a God, and there is you have lost quite a bit, and if you don't believe there is a God, and there isn't what have you gained?"

Except belief or non-belief in God is hardly a matter of choice.

Not to mention the fact that there could be another God who doesn't like the idea that you believed in the wrong God.

Except belief or non-belief in God is hardly a matter of choice.

Really? So you believe that individuals cannot consciously change their beliefs on the subject of God?

Really? So you believe that individuals cannot consciously change their beliefs on the subject of God?

I find it impossible to consciously choose whether or not to have faith.

I can change my beliefs based on arguments I hear for one point of view or the other, but I can't just wake up one day and say, "okay, it will benefit me more to believe in God than not to, so I'll believe in Him."

Sry heard this from my professor applies good to what u just said.
"If there is a God, and you believe in God great u go to heaven, if there isn't a God, what have you lost? However if u don't believe there is a God, and there is you have lost quite a bit, and if you don't believe there is a God, and there isn't what have you gained?"
That is called Pascal's Wager. It is an extremely flawed argument because it overlooks so many factors.

1) What if you choose to believe in the wrong God?
2) What if there is no God, but there are a host of extremely powerful aliens who will trap your soul after it leaves your body, and torture you for the rest of eternity if you believed in God during your lifetime?
3) What if believing in God during your lifetime requires you to engage in or refrain from certain behaviors, and then it turns out there is no God or afterlife at all? You've lost out on expereincing the only life you've got, and you got nothing in return.
4) What if there is a God, and God is evil? Would you be comfortable knowing you spent your life worshipping evil, if it meant that evil would reward you after death? What might that say about your principles?
5) Is your belief in God of any moral value, if you're merely choosing to believe in order to ensure rewards for yourself? Why would an all-good God be happy with you, if your motivation for believing is so shallow?

And the list could go on. I'm honestly horrified to think there's anybody who holds the title of "Professor" who is stupid enough to have used this lame argument. I'm hoping the prof was actually trying to use it as an example of poor logic, and you just snoozed off during that part of the lecture.

I find it impossible to consciously choose whether or not to have faith.

I can change my beliefs based on arguments I hear for one point of view or the other, but I can't just wake up one day and say, "okay, it will benefit me more to believe in God than not to, so I'll believe in Him."
Do you believe this is an inherent trait of all people, or just you in particular?

Do you believe this is an inherent trait of all people, or just you in particular?

I don't know.

I don't particularly think faith is something many people assume for consciously ulterior motives; I don't know if I'd call that kind of position "faith" at all.

And frankly, while I've heard versions of Pascal's Wager from countless theists, I've never heard one say that that's the reason they believe in God.

I don't know.

Fair enough.


I don't particularly think faith is something many people assume for consciously ulterior motives; I don't know if I'd call that kind of position "faith" at all.

I think "faith" is a lot like drug addiction; the individual may not be processing their feelings "consciously" at all times, and there are certainly subconscious motivators involved, but conscious action and thought can over-rule the subconscious forces.


And frankly, while I've heard versions of Pascal's Wager from countless theists, I've never heard one say that that's the reason they believe in God.
Most people who pull out Pascal's Wager don't actually think about their faith at all. If they did, they'd see right through it. I believe that if they actually applied their brains to the subject they could consciously change how they are thinking; I just think they choose not to do so.

I think "faith" is a lot like drug addiction; the individual may not be processing their feelings "consciously" at all times, and there are certainly subconscious motivators involved, but conscious action and thought can over-rule the subconscious forces.

I believe that if they actually applied their brains to the subject they could consciously change how they are thinking; I just think they choose not to do so.

Well, that makes some sense to me.

I suppose it is possible to for someone to consciously choose to embrace reason and suppress her faith in God, but I find it hard to believe that someone could accept something irrational, like faith, on a purely rational basis.

Has this been posted yet? Because the one person who hasn't seen it, needs to see it now.
http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

Well, that makes some sense to me.

I suppose it is possible to for someone to consciously choose to embrace reason and suppress her faith in God, but I find it hard to believe that someone could accept something irrational, like faith, on a purely rational basis.
I agree that it can be extremely difficult for a person to examine their own beliefs critically, particularly when you live in a world where superstition is portrayed as ESSENTIAL for all moral beings. There is every reason to remain ignorant and refuse to think about your beliefs, and very little motivation to engage in difficult and threatening self-examination.

Kind of like how people who lived in hippie communes weren't particularly likely to take a long, hard look at their own substance abuse.

Fair enough.


I think "faith" is a lot like drug addiction; the individual may not be processing their feelings "consciously" at all times, and there are certainly subconscious motivators involved, but conscious action and thought can over-rule the subconscious forces.


Most people who pull out Pascal's Wager don't actually think about their faith at all. If they did, they'd see right through it. I believe that if they actually applied their brains to the subject they could consciously change how they are thinking; I just think they choose not to do so.

Religion is the opium of the masses.
That was a lot more succinct.

That would be two sex-slaves, then, since you don't want to have to pay them to have sex with you.

Wouldn't it be nicer to wish for two people who would want to have voluntary sex with you? I mean, while you're wishing for stuff, why not wish that everybody in the situation be having a good time?

They did not appear, thus explaining God's non-existance.

A blowjob. It's irrefutable proof.

That is called Pascal's Wager. It is an extremely flawed argument because it overlooks so many factors.

1) What if you choose to believe in the wrong God?
2) What if there is no God, but there are a host of extremely powerful aliens who will trap your soul after it leaves your body, and torture you for the rest of eternity if you believed in God during your lifetime?
3) What if believing in God during your lifetime requires you to engage in or refrain from certain behaviors, and then it turns out there is no God or afterlife at all? You've lost out on expereincing the only life you've got, and you got nothing in return.
4) What if there is a God, and God is evil? Would you be comfortable knowing you spent your life worshipping evil, if it meant that evil would reward you after death? What might that say about your principles?
5) Is your belief in God of any moral value, if you're merely choosing to believe in order to ensure rewards for yourself? Why would an all-good God be happy with you, if your motivation for believing is so shallow?

And the list could go on. I'm honestly horrified to think there's anybody who holds the title of "Professor" who is stupid enough to have used this lame argument. I'm hoping the prof was actually trying to use it as an example of poor logic, and you just snoozed off during that part of the lecture.

not only that but many people dont believe that using reason (flawed reason though it is)can ever lead to a true faith in god.
I think it was soren kierkegaard that said 'faith requires a certainty that reason can never provide'
You could appl the wager to all religions-but you cant believe in them all.

To answer the origional question tho, It would take some kind of revelation for me to believe god exists.Im agnostic(i guess) cos I couldnt say for certain that there is or isnt a God.Im going to reserve judgement on something that is beyond my realm of experience.Cowardly-yes,sensible-probably.

If you're Godless and you know clap your hands!

/me pisses off Ann Coulter

What it would take for me to stop believing in G-d would be a definitive, clinching proof that the Torah was NOT given at Mt. Sinai. Please post said arguments in the Judaism thread.

For me to believe in God would take irrefutable scientific proof.

Google "proof of Har Sinai".

Religion is the opium of the masses.
That was a lot more succinct.
No, ego-fluffery is the opiate of the masses. Religion is one way people fluff their egos and receive external fluffage. But people are equally addicted to other sources of fluffery.

They did not appear, thus explaining God's non-existance.
Well, or maybe God does exist, but thinks you're an asshole for asking to be given prostitutes who you aren't going to pay.

What it would take for me to stop believing in G-d would be a definitive, clinching proof that the Torah was NOT given at Mt. Sinai. Please post said arguments in the Judaism thread.
You are, of course, aware that it is not possible to prove a negative?

Actually meeting him/her

if everyone on earth believed in god, THEN i would.

A God that makes me pay for some else's mistake doesnt seem very caring so I will blame God, not them.
Do as you please.

Then that means Adam and Eve are a few billion years old since god created the world in 6days. Thus they lived with dinosaurs which the human species never did. So either they were really the earliest forms of humans, not capable of the amount of rational thinking we are, or there were just no dinosaurs. please clarify.
Perhaps after leaving the garden they devolved back into apes due to distance from God? Who knows. I do not take the Bible too literally.

What if theres not? What if you spent all this time looking forward to heaven instead of taking advantage of the time given to you on earth.
Then I just die. No problem there. And again, I repeat, beyond belief in God, I do not base my life around religion. So it's not like it consumes me.

Not much. Now, I am not making any brash assumptions merely because I believe so, but just pointing out what I think:

If God wanted us to worship him, he would have bombarded us through miracles, which hasn't happened. Therefore, I believe if there is a God, he (yes, I am assuming God is male right now, you feminists) would not need miracles and hope that people would follow in the attempt to be better people, and therefore worship of God is not neccessarry.

I already believe in God

Do as you please.


Perhaps after leaving the garden they devolved back into apes due to distance from God? Who knows. I do not take the Bible too literally.


Then I just die. No problem there. And again, I repeat, beyond belief in God, I do not base my life around religion. So it's not like it consumes me.

Geeze! There's nothing I can say to you! You're a person I have no problem understanding.

I already believe in God

What did it take for you to believe in God?

Geeze! There's nothing I can say to you! You're a person I have no problem understanding.
Would this be positive or negative?

Would this be positive or negative?

Positive ;)

Perhaps after leaving the garden they devolved back into apes due to distance from God? Who knows. I do not take the Bible too literally.


So you pick and choose what you believe then. I see alot of Christians do this and dont quite get it.

So you pick and choose what you believe then. I see alot of Christians do this and dont quite get it.
The Bible is full of metaphor, and in many cases has been capriciously subject to change by the many whose hands it has passed through. I essentially focus my beliefs on Christ Himself and His teachings. Anything that is contradictory within it I reject.

The Bible is full of metaphor, and in many cases has been capriciously subject to change by the many whose hands it has passed through. I essentially focus my beliefs on Christ Himself and His teachings. Anything that is contradictory within it I reject.
fair enough.

The Bible is full of metaphor, and in many cases has been capriciously subject to change by the many whose hands it has passed through. I essentially focus my beliefs on Christ Himself and His teachings. Anything that is contradictory within it I reject.
Kinda leaves you nondenominational, doesn't it?

God coming down and having a chat with me. Peanut butter brownies might also help his cause.

So you pick and choose what you believe then. I see alot of Christians do this and dont quite get it.
Hon, you see every single religious person do this. It ain't just the Christians.

People follow the religion that best matches up with their values. Most of the time, this will be the religion they were reared into, because (obviously) it will probably match up best with the values they were reared into. And when you see people converting to a new religion, it's all about them deciding that their current religion does not fit with their values and so they are looking for a new religion that will fit with their values.

Like swapping one imaginary friend for another or changing from a red blankie to a blue blankie for more security.