NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2229505,00.html

A BUSINESSMAN is facing a life sentence for stabbing his sister to death in front of his two young daughters in a so-called honour killing.

Azhar Nazir, 30, and his cousin, 17, used four knives to cut Samaira Nazir’s throat and repeatedly stab her after she fell in love with an asylum-seeker from what they saw as an unsuitable caste.

Miss Nazir, 25, had rejected suitors lined up to meet her in Pakistan and had been summoned to the family home in Southall, Middlesex.

The father, also called Azhar, Nazir and the youth launched the attack and at one point dragged her by her hair back into the property.

Miss Nazir, a businesswoman described as “strong-willed”, was heard to shout at her mother, Irshad Begum: “You are not my mother any more.” She was then held down as a scarf was tied around her neck and her throat was cut in three places. Nazir’s daughters, aged 2 and 4, were screaming and were splattered with blood. Police fear that they were ordered to watch as a warning to them. Neighbours called the police after hearing the screaming.

WTF? What kind of family does that? Wheres the honour in killing a member of your family?

WTF? What kind of family does that? Wheres the honour in killing a member of your family?
I believe the idea is that your are responsible for/associated with the dishonourable actions of your offspring for as long as they live. Therefore, you can only regain your honour by killing them. It's an extreme version of the family with bonds with which humanity seems to be obsessed.

that is so sad. that poor woman and those poor little girls who had to watch. i hope that if they are UK citizens that their family will never be allowed to take them to pakistan.

whats the worst punishment that the UK gives out for first degree murder?

Swift and heavy British justice for them :mad:

Life imprisonment, the UK abolished the death penalty several years ago. Usually you only get life without parole in the most extreme cases, e.g. child-killing. Maybe this will qualify as an extreme case.

Life imprisonment, the UK abolished the death penalty several years ago. Usually you only get life without parole in the most extreme cases, e.g. child-killing. Maybe this will qualify as an extreme case.

I think the UK judiciary is wanting to make an example of 'honour killers'. This guy might be it.

Swift and heavy British justice for them :mad:
Provided their human rights aren't infringed.

What a tragedy. Hopefully this will be dealt with as a lesson and deterrent to those who seek to live in Western society and not abide by our laws.

WTF? What kind of family does that? Wheres the honour in killing a member of your family?
The act of killing a member of your family shows the determination of that families members to maintain the family's station even at the cost of killing one of the family members. In an honor based culture this demonstrates the family's strength and determination.

Now I don't condone such behavior. It may have been usefull when people lived as isolated family groups of goat herders to project strength and ruthlessness to outsiders and to show loyalty to the larger family group, but nowadays it's the act of savage scum.

Life imprisonment, the UK abolished the death penalty several years ago. Usually you only get life without parole in the most extreme cases, e.g. child-killing. Maybe this will qualify as an extreme case.


i would hope so!

Swift and heavy British justice for them :mad:

Not bloody likely, not in the West. 10 years, tops.

Not bloody likely, not in the West. 10 years, tops.

Sad,but true.

And yeah, this is what happens with immigration. But I'm sure West had honour killings LONG before the immigrant waves. :rolleyes:

And yeah, this is what happens with immigration. But I'm sure West had honour killings LONG before the immigrant waves. :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact, it did.
Rural Germany has a long and sad history of disposing of female farm workers if they got pregnant from their employers. Although that would in most cases have been more or less rudely disguised as suicides, meaning that most of them were hanged.

As a matter of fact, it did.
Rural Germany has a long and sad history of disposing of female farm workers if they got pregnant from their employers. Although that would in most cases have been more or less rudely disguised as suicides, meaning that most of them were hanged.

Yeah, and when Europe did move on from that? It's like they WANT these problems; when their natives become civilised, they import savages :rolleyes:

And besides, before Prussia arrived, rural Germany liked to eat Vaseline on toast >_>

Yeah, and Europe did move on from that?

And besides, before Prussia arrived, rural Germany liked to eat Vaseline on toast >_>

Prussia arrived in the 16th century. One of my great-aunts was killed in a small village near Braunschweig in 1952 because her employer got her pregnant.

Prussia arrived in the 16th century. One of my great-aunts was killed in a small village near Braunschweig in 1952 because her employer got her pregnant.

And in 1952, ALL of Germany was eating Vaseline on toast. Without toast. Your point?

And there is a different between rural, and the suburbs/city.

And in 1952, ALL of Germany was eating Vaseline on toast. Without toast. Your point?

Rrrrrrright. You're either desperately trying to be funny about something or else a lot less informed than even I gave you credit for so far.... :rolleyes:

And there is a different between rural, and the suburbs/city.

I'm sure that family who murdered that woman were from central Islamabad originally...

Rrrrrrright. You're either desperately trying to be funny about something or else a lot less informed than even I gave you credit for so far.... :rolleyes:

A bit of both. But besides that, Germany's always been a bit weird.

I'm sure that family who murdered that woman were from central Islamabad originally...

I meant Western cities, pointing out that killing in old rural Europe don't equate killings by immigrant in the middle of modern Western cities. Over in central islamabad, it's a sport.

A bit of both. But besides that, Germany's always been a bit weird.

Well, other European examples of honour killlings would most likely involve Southern Italy (where they actually still do that now and then), Greece, France, Spain.... well, more or less every country had it's fair share.

Well, other European examples of honour killlings would most likely involve Southern Italy (where they actually still do that now and then), Greece, France, Spain.... well, more or less every country had it's fair share.

I still don't think rural Europe can be compared to common immigrant culture. I've seen that movie, "I'm Not Scared." Rural in general is fucked up.

idiots.

no, there too stupid to be idiots.

umm...

fundamentalists.

Provided their human rights aren't infringed.

I would think individuals who do something like that should no longer be classified as humans, thus they do not have any human rights.

I meant Western cities, pointing out that killing in old rural Europe don't equate killings by immigrant in the middle of modern Western cities. Over in central islamabad, it's a sport.

Old? Oh yes, 50 years are an eternity...
Stop acting so high and mighty, honour killings are part of many cultures, and the West didn't overcome it that long ago. It's still happening in some places.

It's horrible, and it has to be punished appropriately, but pointing fingers isn't going to solve anything.

I still don't think rural Europe can be compared to common immigrant culture. I've seen that movie, "I'm Not Scared." Rural in general is fucked up.

You were the one who started the comparisson between Europe and "immigrants" in the first place. I just told you you were wrong.

Old? Oh yes, 50 years are an eternity...
Stop acting so high and mighty, honour killings are part of many cultures, and the West didn't overcome it that long ago. It's still happening in some places.

It's horrible, and it has to be punished appropriately, but pointing fingers isn't going to solve anything.

What, so Mr.Smith and Mrs.Mueller are killing their kids on a regular basis? Don't be a dick. Most honour killings in urban Europe these days are committed by immigrants, and you know it.

What, so Mr.Smith and Mrs.Mueller are killing their kids on a regular basis? Don't be a dick. Most honour killings in urban Europe these days are committed by immigrants, and you know it.

Do you honestly believe that people in Pakistan are killing their kids by the truckload??? It's not a regular occurence anywhere.

And in 1952, ALL of Germany was eating Vaseline on toast. Without toast. Your point?


are you mocking the murder of a member of cabra west's family? :mad:

the point is an atrocity like that cannot be attributed to an entire race. will i find some juicy murder in LA and declair all americans 'savages'?

Do you honestly believe that people in Pakistan are killing their kids by the truckload??? It's not a regular occurence anywhere.

I think it's pretty common in the ME and parts of Africa and Asia.

I think it's pretty common in the ME and parts of Africa and Asia.

More common then thay are in present day Europe, correct. As common as it used to be here as well.

More common then thay are in present day Europe, correct. As common as it used to be here as well.

Emphasise the word "used." Pretend I used to rob banks, but became a model citizen. Does that make my criticism of another bank robber any less valid?

We must respect their culture.

Emphasise the word "used." Pretend I used to rob banks, but became a model citizen. Does that make my criticism of another bank robber any less valid?

In your case, you'd only ever blame the other bank robber if he happened to be Muslim. And youd use the opportunity to call all Muslims bank robbers.

We must respect their culture.

Are you nuts?

In your case, you'd only ever blame the other bank robber if he happened to be Muslim. And youd use the opportunity to call all Muslims bank robbers.

I think it's cute that you try to cover up your bad argument like that.

Are you nuts?

No.

If honor killing is in their culture, who are we to interfere?

In your case, you'd only ever blame the other bank robber if he happened to be Muslim. And youd use the opportunity to call all Muslims bank robbers.
Doubtful. And I know I wouldn't. In fact, if my yuppie neighbor did this and I found out about it before the cops got to him, I'd shoot the son of a bitch. Go for a gut shot too, make him die slower.

No.

If honor killing is in their culture, who are we to interfere?

We should let them. Eventually the people who do it will be wiped out.

No.

If honor killing is in their culture, who are we to interfere?
We're people from a superior culture who have a responsibility to civilize them.

No.

If honor killing is in their culture, who are we to interfere?
Well, by that logic, if it's someone's culture to wipe out humanity, we should let them do it?
Well, MY culture requires bloodthirsty murder to be punished. And I do hope that the British judiciary will make an example of these people.

We're people from a superior culture who have a responsibility to civilize them.


oh sweet suffering jesus, the fat yanks are starting this shite again! :rolleyes:

We must respect their culture.
To a limit. Some aspects of their culture that don't interfere with rights or other persons, or endanger other's life or well-being, those should be respected.

This is clearly not one of those.

Not bloody likely, not in the West. 10 years, tops.
Not in all of the West. If it happened here, depending on the state, the dad, brother and cousin would all get either the chair, the needle or the chamber.

Their human righst would stop at teh point where they get to choose their method of execution. :)

To a limit. Some aspects of their culture that don't interfere with rights or other persons, or endanger other's life or well-being, those should be respected.

This is clearly not one of those.
'mmhm.

I wonder if the OP's "Savages" refers to murderers, or anyone who is Muslim?

Probably some smartass nazi is going to say "both." Har har, you're a bigot, how clever.

We're people from a superior culture who have a responsibility to civilize them.

Horseshit. Our culture is no more superior. We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide. Just like any other culture. Quit it with this cultural/ethnic supremacy/nazism crap, DCD. It's not you.

Old? Oh yes, 50 years are an eternity...
Stop acting so high and mighty, honour killings are part of many cultures, and the West didn't overcome it that long ago. It's still happening in some places.

It's horrible, and it has to be punished appropriately, but pointing fingers isn't going to solve anything.
It isn't a sanctioned part of everyday life anywhere in the West that I know of. You're comparing apples and oranges. Your grandmother being killed because she was pregnant and having it made to look like a suicide is a far cry from your brother slicing your throat in front of your family because they don't dig your boyfriend. Also, if they had caught your grndmother's employer what would have happened? How would they have put him to death? If the killing described by the OP had happened in Pakistan yesterday they'd have held a parade for the brother in many villages.

No.

If honor killing is in their culture, who are we to interfere?

And people like you are ensuring that the West will die.

This is the West. We ARE the culture. And their culture, culture like that, is unwelcome. People involved in this kind of thing should be deported to Buttfuckstan or wherever the hell they come from.

Horseshit. Our culture is no more superior. We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide. Just like any other culture. Quit it with this cultural/ethnic supremacy/nazism crap, DCD. It's not you.

We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide. And we punish it, not celebrate it. Western culture is superior; get over it, pinko.

I think the UK judiciary is wanting to make an example of 'honour killers'. This guy might be it.

Nah, we'd be too worried about harming people's 'culture'.

Nah, we'd be too worried about harming people's 'culture'.

They'll probably pay him a tribute and wish him luck with his next honour killing.

We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide.

You're right. Therefore we're no better than anyone else who does those things. Frankly, a lot worse, since Western culture has proven so much more effective at killing innocent people.

And we punish it, not celebrate it.

My ass we do. We punish it when it suits us politically to do so and ignore it when it doesn't.

And it's not like every Muslim 'celebrates' honor killings either.

Western culture is superior; get over it, pinko.

Boy, that's a convincing argument, I like how you added "pinko" just because I'm not a raving nazi. I'm about as pink as you are happy, well-adjusted and normal.

<snip>


Horseshit. Our culture is no more superior. We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide. Just like any other culture. Quit it with this cultural/ethnic supremacy/nazism crap, DCD. It's not you.
Didn't you hear? They take a vote every year. Westernized modern civilizations are voted superior by virtually every immigrant. They flock to the shores of Canada, the USA, South Korea and Japan. They desperately want in because our cultures best satisfy the desires and demands of human nature.

And it's not like every Muslim 'celebrates' honor killings either.

A lot more muslims do that Westerners do.

Didn't you hear? They take a vote every year. Westernized modern civilizations are voted superior by virtually every immigrant. They flock to the shores of Canada, the USA, South Korea and Japan. They desperately want in because our cultures best satisfy the desires and demands of human nature.

No, they want in so they can get a good job. Argument dismissed.

Didn't you hear? They take a vote every year. Westernized modern civilizations are voted superior by virtually every immigrant. They flock to the shores of Canada, the USA, South Korea and Japan. They desperately want in because our cultures best satisfy the desires and demands of human nature.

But rather than give something back by fully intergrating, they insist on bring shithouse parts of their culture with them, like honour killings and hijabs.

A lot more muslims do that Westerners do.

Unfounded statement. Dismissed.

No, they want in so they can get a good job. Argument dismissed.
You just shot yourself in the foot. They want a good job. Why? So that they can satisfy the needs and desires inherent in human nature. Our culture produces good jobs.

No, they want in so they can get a good job. Argument dismissed.

But why do we HAVE jobs? Is it because our culture isn't dumb enough to do shit like, say... declaring holy war on ice? (yes, Iraqi insurgents have been attacking stores with ice, calling ice unislamic. I made a topic on it a bit back)

It isn't a sanctioned part of everyday life anywhere in the West that I know of. You're comparing apples and oranges. Your grandmother being killed because she was pregnant and having it made to look like a suicide is a far cry from your brother slicing your throat in front of your family because they don't dig your boyfriend. Also, if they had caught your grndmother's employer what would have happened? How would they have put him to death? If the killing described by the OP had happened in Pakistan yesterday they'd have held a parade for the brother in many villages.

She was my great-aunt, not my grandmother. And if they hadn't found him out, how could I tell you this story? He was found out, nothing happened to him.

Unfounded statement. Dismissed.

See how he puts "dismissed" at the end of every sentence? He's a bot. Let's ignore the badly programmed bot.

You just shot yourself in the foot. They want a good job. Why? So that they can satisfy the needs and desires inherent in human nature. Our culture produces good jobs.

I didn't shoot jack shit. I differentiated between economics and culture, or economics and cultural superiority.

Only an ignorant nazi would suggest cultural superiority due to economic factors.

But rather than give something back by fully intergrating, they insist on bring shithouse parts of their culture with them, like honour killings and hijabs.
Give them time and give them a chance. In the USA Muslims tend to be among the wealthiest and best educated people. They dont' commit much crime at all. They seem to be integrating pretty well over here with few exceptions.

We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide. And we punish it, not celebrate it. Western culture is superior; get over it, pinko.

Do you honestly think most Muslims "celebrate" murder? Sure, there are some crazy people out there who do. There are crazy people in Western society who think that Fred Phelps is a wonderful person, or that Charles Manson is a prophet. I've seen crazy people on this very forum claim that rape is entirely justifiable; should I extrapolate from this that anyone who posts on NationStates supports raping people? Every culture has crazy people, and evil people, and stupid people, but that does not mean that the culture itself is fundamentally crazy, evil, or stupid.

I didn't shoot jack shit. I differentiated between economics and culture, or economics and cultural superiority.

Only an ignorant nazi would suggest cultural superiority due to economic factors.

Maybe you should stop calling people Nazis, it would help your arguments.

The West has free markets and encourages growth. The Middle East thinks ice is the devil. I can see how culture creates economic superiority.

Kill that entire family, drag them into a room and drop canisters of Zyklon B on them.
Spare only the children.

She was my great-aunt, not my grandmother. And if they hadn't found him out, how could I tell you this story? He was found out, nothing happened to him.
Still doesn't change the point. By your own telling of it he had to try to hide what he had done, he didn't hop on a horse and ride around teh village waving her bloody nightgown around over his head for all to see. Killing people, for any reason, is not encouraged in our culture. Does it happen? yes. Do certain people celebrate it? Yes. But we don't run around and proudly declare that we defended our family's honor by butchering our sister.

Do you honestly think most Muslims "celebrate" murder? Sure, there are some crazy people out there who do. There are crazy people in Western society who think that Fred Phelps is a wonderful person, or that Charles Manson is a prophet. I've seen crazy people on this very forum claim that rape is entirely justifiable; should I extrapolate from this that anyone who posts on NationStates supports raping people? Every culture has crazy people, and evil people, and stupid people, but that does not mean that the culture itself is fundamentally crazy, evil, or stupid.

I honestly do. A lot of them are fucking wacko. A sizable minority, if not a slight majority. Every culture has crazies. But muslims, mainly because they follow their millenia-old holy book to the letter, generally have MORE crazies.

I didn't shoot jack shit. I differentiated between economics and culture, or economics and cultural superiority.

Only an ignorant nazi would suggest cultural superiority due to economic factors.
Your mother's a nazi.

Economic conditions are dictated by culture. Muslim culture prohibits charging interest, for example. Don't you think that changes the banking system dramatically? Communist culture has been shown to stifle development. Look at examples like Cuba, China (before market reforms), Soviet Union, Vietnam (before market reforms), and North Korea.

Modern westernized cultures promote various forms of capitalism, more or less regulated. As a result, they've got the cutting edge industries, good jobs, and high standard of living. Also they maintain rule of law, and certain levels of freedom, which contribute to a strong business environment as well as good living conditions.

Kill that entire family, drag them into a room and drop canisters of Zyklon B on them.
Spare only the children.

Botulin is better.

Maybe you should stop calling people Nazis, it would help your arguments.


Yeah, maybe you should stop generalizing about all Muslims and immigrants and foreigners, then you'd look like less of a nazi. And then people would stop calling you one!

But if name-calling bothers you and you can't be arsed to do anything other than goose-step, I suggest you make your complaint BEFORE calling someone a "pinko." Looks completely fucking hypocritical is why.


The West has free markets and encourages grows. The Middle East thinks ice is the devil. I can see how culture creates economic superiority.

Encourages "grows?" I guess we don't encourage the English language any more.

You went from "some Iraqi insurgents attack stores with ice" to "the Middle East thinks ice is the devil."

Kind of like how you went from me making two statements with the word "dismissed" at the end of them, to extrapolating that

See how he puts "dismissed" at the end of every sentence? He's a bot. Let's ignore the badly programmed bot.

That's the very definition of "stupid generalization."

Dismissed. ;)

Your mother's a nazi.

Economic conditions are dictated by culture. Muslim culture prohibits charging interest, for example. Don't you think that changes the banking system dramatically? Communist culture has been shown to stifle development. Look at examples like Cuba, China (before market reforms), Soviet Union, Vietnam (before market reforms), and North Korea.

Modern westernized cultures promote various forms of capitalism, more or less regulated. As a result, they've got the cutting edge industries, good jobs, and high standard of living. Also they maintain rule of law, and certain levels of freedom, which contribute to a strong business environment as well as good living conditions.

Mmm hmm. Like I said, apparently, ice is evil to some muslims. I'm surprised they have anything beyond the spoked wheel.

Yeah, maybe you should stop generalizing about all Muslims and immigrants and foreigners, then you'd look like less of a nazi. And then people would stop calling you one!

But if name-calling bothers you and you can't be arsed to do anything other than goose-step, I suggest you make your complaint BEFORE calling someone a "pinko." Looks completely fucking hypocritical is why.

If you don't wanna be labelled a pinko, maybe you should stop hating on Western culture just because it's Western. If the muslims were the ones with the Wester culture, it would be fucking fine and dandy, wouldn't it?


You went from "some Iraqi insurgents attack stores with ice" to "the Middle East thinks ice is the devil."

Nope. They specifically targeted it because of the ice. They made statements dissing the ice. Also, falafels.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/04/wirq04.xml

Your mother's a nazi.

I'll agree when she starts arguing the kind of shit you do.

Economic conditions are dictated by culture. Muslim culture prohibits charging interest, for example. Don't you think that changes the banking system dramatically? Communist culture has been shown to stifle development. Look at examples like Cuba, China (before market reforms), Soviet Union, Vietnam (before market reforms), and North Korea.

Economic conditions are not "dictated" by culture. Sure, cultural forces play a role, as do geographic, global, luck, politics, law, etc etc. You reducing it all to a "he who has the better economy has the better culture" is just stupid. Period.

Still doesn't change the point. By your own telling of it he had to try to hide what he had done, he didn't hop on a horse and ride around teh village waving her bloody nightgown around over his head for all to see. Killing people, for any reason, is not encouraged in our culture. Does it happen? yes. Do certain people celebrate it? Yes. But we don't run around and proudly declare that we defended our family's honor by butchering our sister.

Have you read the article? The father of the family did in fact try to hide the killing as well, he didn't parade his dead daughter around the town either. I think you'll find that most people even in Pakistan will celebrate and honour killing, nor will you find many who take pride in it.

If you don't wanna be labelled a pinko, maybe you should stop hating on Western culture just because it's Western.

You labelled me a "pinko" because I Trashed your 'argument.' Not because I hate Western culture.

Really, you have to try harder to make your bullshit labels stick. I don't have to try to make you look like a nazi - your own posts did that.

If the muslims were the ones with the Wester culture, it would be fucking fine and dandy, wouldn't it?

I doubt it.

Nope. They specifically targeted it because of the ice. They made statements dissing the ice.

Big fucking deal. Your statement about the entire Middle East - let alone all Muslims - is untrue from a factual point of view, but I'm starting to get the idea that you don't give a shit about facts.

I think you'll find that most people even in Pakistan will celebrate and honour killing, nor will you find many who take pride in it.

If Pakistan is lower on honour killings than other muslim nations, it's because it's ruled by a dictator. I'm sure Iraq didn't have many under Saddam either.

Have you read the article? The father of the family did in fact try to hide the killing as well, he didn't parade his dead daughter around the town either. I think you'll find that most people even in Pakistan will celebrate and honour killing, nor will you find many who take pride in it.
Which makes perfect sense. This sort of honour killing would be a last ditch attempt to preserve the familiy's honour. I'm confident that if some woman married outside her caste in Pakistan the family wouldn't parade around with her dead body. Mainly because they wouldn't want everyone to know their daughter married outside her caste.



Unless the family was crazy like the one in the article.

ive half read this thread so feel free to correct my summation:

some immigrant in britian goes dipso and kills his daughter in cold blood because he dissaproves of her relationship.

queue loads of anti-immigrant/muslim stuff.

because never has a white man commited domestic violence and child abuse. ever.

broadly correct?

Really, you have to try harder to make your bullshit labels stick. I don't have to try to make you look like a nazi - your own posts did that.

It would help if I was a Nazi. But I'm a monarchist.

Big fucking deal. Your statement about the entire Middle East - let alone all Muslims - is untrue from a factual point of view, but I'm starting to get the idea that you don't give a shit about facts.

Excuse me? YOU'RE ignoring that facts. I specifically give you evidence of utter irrationality on the part of muslims, and it's a "Big fucking deal."

I would think individuals who do something like that should no longer be classified as humans, thus they do not have any human rights.
This argument is exactly why we fight to strengthen human rights.

Human rights must never be taken away from those we feel don't deserve them.

Which makes perfect sense. This sort of honour killing would be a last ditch attempt to preserve the familiy's honour. I'm confident that if some woman married outside her caste in Pakistan the family wouldn't parade around with her dead body. Mainly because they wouldn't want everyone to know their daughter married outside her caste.

That's a good point. That's probably one of the reasons the family covered it up.

ive half read this thread so feel free to correct my summation:

some immigrant in britian goes dipso and kills his daughter in cold blood because he dissaproves of her relationship.

queue loads of anti-immigrant/muslim stuff.

because never has a white man commited domestic violence and child abuse. ever.

broadly correct?

That's the general drift, yes. And some people are trying to use reason against prejudice here... with limited success. ;)

ive half read this thread so feel free to correct my summation:

some immigrant in britian goes dipso and kills his daughter in cold blood because he dissaproves of her relationship.

queue loads of anti-immigrant/muslim stuff.

because never has a white man commited domestic violence and child abuse. ever.

broadly correct?

Hey, at least when Westerners commit domestic violence, it's just because their angry. Not excusing it, of course. But it's not cultural.

It would help if I was a Nazi. But I'm a monarchist.

You know damn well I mean "nazi" in a colloquial sense and not referring to whatever bullshit political idealogy you happen to exhort these days.


Excuse me? YOU'RE ignoring that facts. I specifically give you evidence of utter irrationality on the part of muslims, and it's a "Big fucking deal."

No, you gave me evidence on part of SOME muslims. That doesn't have jack shit to do with your generalized statements about "the Middle East thinks ice is Satan."

And it has nothing to do with the argument that economic superiority = cultural superiority either.

Frankly, you are showing me more irrationality than anyone else in the world right now.

It would help if I was a Nazi. But I'm a monarchist. I doubt your political beliefs really matter. Kind of how Trostia's didn't when you called him a pinko. Grow up children, leave name calling for when someone takes your favourite swing.



Excuse me? YOU'RE ignoring that facts. I specifically give you evidence of utter irrationality on the part of muslims, and it's a "Big fucking deal."
Some Muslims are irrational, like any other demographic. That doesn't prove anything, nor does something like that require proof. Unless some tool was claiming all Muslims were 100% rational 100% of the time. But nobody has made such a claim.

If Pakistan is lower on honour killings than other muslim nations, it's because it's ruled by a dictator. I'm sure Iraq didn't have many under Saddam either.
I think Pakistan is one of the countries with the largest amounts of so-called "honour killings". It is a cultural thing, but not a particularly muslim thing.

That's a good point. That's probably one of the reasons the family covered it up.
That and I'm sure they got the memo about murder being illegal.

Hey, at least when Westerners commit domestic violence, it's just because their angry. Not excusing it, of course. But it's not cultural.
The Muslims are also angry. The cultural aspect is not that they're angry or not, it's what they're angry about.

No, you gave me evidence on part of SOME muslims. That doesn't have jack shit to do with your generalized statements about "the Middle East thinks ice is Satan."

And it has nothing to do with the argument that economic superiority = cultural superiority either.

Some muslims too many. They should, you know, fucking, get normal.

And how does it not have anythint to do with economic superiority = cultural superiority? Western culture doesn't prohibit economically stimulating resources for stupid cultural reasons, end of story.

Hey, at least when Westerners commit domestic violence, it's just because their angry. Not excusing it, of course. But it's not cultural.

Huh? You think the family there murdered their daughter because they were happy for her???
"Hey, we love her so much, it's great that she's happy, but we do have this cultural obligation, you know?"

I think Pakistan is one of the countries with the largest amounts of so-called "honour killings". It is a cultural thing, but not a particularly muslim thing.

Well there you go. I figured it would be, since islamabad's rule is ultra-centralised.

These instances are the reason why I believe we need the death penatly. This bastard's going to live on the state's pound for the rest of his miserable life. Well, he'll probably get killed by the inmates...

Huh? You think the family there murdered their daughter because they were happy for her???
"Hey, we love her so much, it's great that she's happy, but we do have this cultural obligation, you know?"

No. But they were angry for stupid cultural reasons. Westerners generally get angry for stupid petty reasons. It's no better, but at least our shit isn't engrained in life.

Some muslims too many. They should, you know, fucking, get normal.So would normal be persecuting gays instead of women who marry into the wrong caste and becoming obese instead of wearing headscarves? You know, like all those 'normal' westerners.

And how does it not have anythint to do with economic superiority = cultural superiority? Western culture doesn't prohibit economically stimulating resources for stupid cultural reasons, end of story.
What about tax exempt status for religions? Isn't that a stupid cultural thing to the detriment of the economy?

That and I'm sure they got the memo about murder being illegal.

Mmm. What they specifically lack is the social guilt aspect. They probably felt no guilt for the crime, because of their culture.

Some muslims too many. They should, you know, fucking, get normal.

...

This neither addresses my point nor makes one of its own. It does however insult, slander and stereotype an entire group of people based on their religion.

Interestingly enough, the nazis did that too....


And how does it not have anythint to do with economic superiority = cultural superiority? Western culture doesn't prohibit economically stimulating resources for stupid cultural reasons, end of story.

...

We prohibit "drugs" because of our "War on Drugs" and "drugs" are economically stimulating.

Do continue to live in dream world, mein freund.

Some muslims too many. They should, you know, fucking, get normal.

And how does it not have anythint to do with economic superiority = cultural superiority? Western culture doesn't prohibit economically stimulating resources for stupid cultural reasons, end of story.

Normal like... what? You? *shudders

Dreadful perspective...

Mmm. What they specifically lack is the social guilt aspect. They probably felt no guilt for the crime, because of their culture.
I doubt that highly. If they lack guilt it's because they are some brand of insane, not because of their culture.

So would normal be persecuting gays instead of women who marry into the wrong caste and becoming obese instead of wearing headscarves? You know, like all those 'normal' westerners.

I don't think it's very common to kill a relative for being gay. And it's not a really a culture thing, either. As long as they're not harmed, ostracising them is not a crime.

I'll agree when she starts arguing the kind of shit you do.



Economic conditions are not "dictated" by culture. Sure, cultural forces play a role, as do geographic, global, luck, politics, law, etc etc. You reducing it all to a "he who has the better economy has the better culture" is just stupid. Period.
As if politics, law, and many other factors aren't cultural. As for geography, well, Israel has shitty geography. No natural resources. Yet it's on the cutting edge of high tech industry. USSR had oil, natural gas, timber, and metal ores. It's on the dungpile of history.

Just admit your postmodernist, cultural relativist view is wrong and not just wrong, but destructive because it gives permission for racism, slavery, misogyny, and other evils that western civilization slowly but surely is relegating to the past.

No. But they were angry for stupid cultural reasons. Westerners generally get angry for stupid petty reasons. It's no better, but at least our shit isn't engrained in life.

So, you getting angry about Muslims declaring ice to be against their religion is petty instead of cultural?

I don't think it's very common to kill a relative for being gay. And it's not a really a culture thing, either. As long as they're not harmed, ostracising them is not a crime.
Nor is it common for muslims to make honour killings.

We prohibit "drugs" because of our "War on Drugs" and "drugs" are economically stimulating.

Do continue to live in dream world, mein freund.

Drugs also kill people. I don't see how ice harms anybody.

I doubt that highly. If they lack guilt it's because they are some brand of insane, not because of their culture.

It's entirely possible to lack guilt from culture; Ancient Greece and old Japan are examples of "shame" cultures, where more emphasise is put on getting caught than the personal emotions of the crime.

So, you getting angry about Muslims declaring ice to be against their religion is petty instead of cultural?

I was referring to domestic violence. And I'm not angry about them banning ice; I just think it's absolutely pathetic.

I was referring to domestic violence. And I'm not angry about them banning ice; I just think it's absolutely pathetic.

So the fact that most domestic violence is aimed at women doesn't have any cultural roots?
Give it up.... people will always committ crimes because of strong negative emotions, not out of cultural obligations. And a man beating his wife to death because he suspects that she had been looking at some other guy is no less influenced by culture than a father killing his daughter because she didn't comply with his views of the world.

Nor is it common for muslims to make honour killings.

Apparently it remains "depressingly common" in countries like Pakistan. I found a link on it, but I won't post it because it's got a bit of an icky picture.

It's entirely possible to lack guilt from culture; Ancient Greece and old Japan are examples of "shame" cultures, where more emphasise is put on getting caught than the personal emotions of the crime.
Yes, that is possible. However if the entire pakistani muslim culture was like that I doubt it would still exist. Thus I doubt it is.

So the fact that most domestic violence is aimed at women doesn't have any cultural roots?
Give it up.... people will always committ crimes because of strong negative emotions, not out of cultural obligations. And a man beating his wife to death because he suspects that she had been looking at some other guy is no less influenced by culture than a father killing his daughter because she didn't comply with his views of the world.

Yeah, the caste system isn't culture, it's a system in their emotion core. :rolleyes:

Yes, that is possible. However if the entire pakistani muslim culture was like that I doubt it would still exist. Thus I doubt it is.

Japan managed to get this far with it.

Yeah, the caste system isn't culture, it's a system in there emotion core. :rolleyes:

So's monogamy and the belief in fidelity :rolleyes:

So's monogamy and the belief in fidelity :rolleyes:

Monogamy is culture, I can't really think of a reason for it, other than emotional aspects, and to stop people getting millions of dollars of welfare. Belief in fidelity is a worldwide thing, and is partly instinctive.

Just to point out once and for all that this is a cultural thing, not a religious issue - and not a "muslim culture issue" either:

In Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal "honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives.
Source (http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/Diana/fulltext/wile.htm)

Drugs also kill people. I don't see how ice harms anybody.

Tell that to the people on the Titanic.

As if politics, law, and many other factors aren't cultural. As for geography, well, Israel has shitty geography. No natural resources. Yet it's on the cutting edge of high tech industry. USSR had oil, natural gas, timber, and metal ores. It's on the dungpile of history.

Oh, so geography is irrelevant, and only culture is good or bad for the economy.

Yeah, I'm still not buying this argument. Take a fucking economics class.

Just admit your postmodernist, cultural relativist view is wrong and not just wrong, but destructive because it gives permission for racism, slavery, misogyny, and other evils that western civilization slowly but surely is relegating to the past.

My fat ass. YOU are the one giving permission for racism, YOU are the one arguing in favor of stereotyping based on ethnicity, religion and culture. You're the one arguing for an "evil" here.

Maybe... maybe when you shut up, I'll believe you about how your viewpoint is being relegated to the past.

So's monogamy and the belief in fidelity :rolleyes:
Belief in fidelity and violation of that trust may well have genetic components. They're great strategies for ensuring the survival of one's genes. If a woman can make sure a man will be faithfull, it goes a long way towards making sure his efforts will benefit only her offspring. If she cheats, she can make sure her offspring carry beneficial genetic traits from multiple partners. For men it works in a slightly different way. A man who ensures his woman doesn't sleep around makes sure he doesn't waste effort on helping some other guy's genes survive at the expense of his own, and if he sleeps around he increases the likelyhood of his genes continuing through sheer numbers.

Apparently it remains "depressingly common" in countries like Pakistan. I found a link on it, but I won't post it because it's got a bit of an icky picture.
As many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings in 2003 according to Nilofer Bakhtiar, advisor to then-Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

Tell that to the people on the Titanic.

The Titanic proves that dumb captains cause death, not ice.

Tell me that wasn't a serious argument. It's like that time my friend was debating childhood obesity: one of his serious arguments was "Imagine if you had an All-You-Can-Eat restaurant, and some fat people came in and ate all of your food and put you out of business. How would you feel?"

Oh, so geography is irrelevant, and only culture is good or bad for the economy.

Yeah, I'm still not buying this argument. Take a fucking economics class.

Geography's important, but you're entirely discounting culture.

As many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings in 2003 according to Nilofer Bakhtiar, advisor to then-Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

That's still a lot.

Drunk commies, have we ever agreed on anything before? It could be a landmark day for Drunko-Alemannic relations.

Tell that to the people on the Titanic.



Oh, so geography is irrelevant, and only culture is good or bad for the economy.

Yeah, I'm still not buying this argument. Take a fucking economics class. Stop with the strawman. It makes you look dumber than you are. I never said geography doesn't matter. I gave an example where a geographically blessed country suffered economic decay because of poor culture, and another example where a geographicaly poor country prospers largely because of cultural factors. Still, geography can help a well-run nation prosper. It just has less of an effect than culture does.



My fat ass. YOU are the one giving permission for racism, YOU are the one arguing in favor of stereotyping based on ethnicity, religion and culture. You're the one arguing for an "evil" here. You're a hypocrite. You argue for cultural relativism, then you use Nazi as a derogatory term. You have no right to do so. As a cultural relativist you can't say nazi culture is inferior. Meanwhile, since I'm not a cultural relativist I can condemn Nazis, slave owning societies, and those who stone gays and women without being a hypocrite or a moron.

Maybe... maybe when you shut up, I'll believe you about how your viewpoint is being relegated to the past. Postmodernism is fading like a bad trip. It's losing it's attraction even in academia. It just doesn't reflect the realities shown through observation of the real world and the findings of modern sociobiology. Maybe one day you'll wise up and see what a fool you're being now.

Drunk commies, have we ever agreed on anything before? It could be a landmark day for Drunko-Alemannic relations.
I don't know. Could be. Just to make sure, here's a list of my positions.

Atheist
labor rights and union supporter
opposed to free market globalization, but not to slower, regulated globalization
gun owner and gun rights supporter
free speech supporter
equal rights for all races, creeds, genders and sexual orientations
capitalist, but in favor of controlled capitalism

Where do you stand?

The Titanic proves that dumb captains cause death, not ice.

Okay, and the deaths you hold due to drugs are actually caused by dumb drug users, not the drugs themselves.


Tell me that wasn't a serious argument.

A bit more serious than the "Their culture is inferior" wankfest you and DCD got going right now, that's for sure.


Geography's important, but you're entirely discounting culture.

No, I am suggesting that economic supremacy doesn't equate to cultural superiority.

It's you who is oversimplifying reality to fit your bigoted worldview.

I don't know. Could be. Just to make sure, here's a list of my positions.

Atheist
labor rights and union supporter
opposed to free market globalization, but not to slower, regulated globalization
gun owner and gun rights supporter
free speech supporter
equal rights for all races, creeds, genders and sexual orientations
capitalist, but in favor of controlled capitalism

Where do you stand?

Generally the same. Although I do believe that unions should be carefully watched to ensure that they stay true to their mission and don't become corrupt. And I believe in equal rights, but I think we should reserve the right to be suspicious of people who may deserve suspision.

Okay, and the deaths you hold due to drugs are actually caused by dumb drug users, not the drugs themselves.

Ok, now try to give me any other use for drugs other than slowly killing people?

No, I am suggesting that economic supremacy doesn't equate to cultural superiority.

It's you who is oversimplifying reality to fit your bigoted worldview.

Economic supremacy doesn't equate cultural superiority, but it can certainly be an indicator of it.

Generally the same. Although I do believe that unions should be carefully watched to ensure that they stay true to their mission and don't become corrupt. And I believe in equal rights, but I think we should reserve the right to be suspicious of people who may deserve suspision.
Maybe we agree on more than you think. I too am in favor of "profiling" in situations where the risk is very high. For example, when boarding an airplane. Not, however, when the risk is low or the profiling would be very onerous on a given ethnicity, like pulling over black motorists to search them for crack.

I'm going to bed. It's 7:30AM here... damn World Cup. I'll be back. 'Night.

Maybe we agree on more than you think. I too am in favor of "profiling" in situations where the risk is very high. For example, when boarding an airplane. Not, however, when the risk is low or the profiling would be very onerous on a given ethnicity, like pulling over black motorists to search them for crack.

Very good. That's what I think too.

Stop with the strawman. It makes you look dumber than you are. I never said geography doesn't matter. I gave an example where a geographically blessed country suffered economic decay because of poor culture, and another example where a geographicaly poor country prospers largely because of cultural factors. Still, geography can help a well-run nation prosper. It just has less of an effect than culture does.

Fine, so which culture do you attribute the economy's health to? Gangsta rap, or emo? Or do you hold them to be the same culture, for the purposes of making an artificial "us" so you can continue your criticism of "them."


You're a hypocrite. You argue for cultural relativism, then you use Nazi as a derogatory term. You have no right to do so. As a cultural relativist you can't say nazi culture is inferior.

I am not a "cultural relativist." What was that about strawmen?

Nor are my comments regarding your nazi-like stance in regards to "culture" but politics and idealogy. Nazism is a political idealogy, you see, not a culture. And that idealogy shares a few things with yours, is all.


Meanwhile, since I'm not a cultural relativist I can condemn Nazis, slave owning societies, and those who stone gays and women without being a hypocrite or a moron.

Calling your opponent a moron is a sign that you've just lost whatever lame-ass argument you think you were putting forth.

Postmodernism is fading like a bad trip. It's losing it's attraction even in academia. It just doesn't reflect the realities shown through observation of the real world and the findings of modern sociobiology. Maybe one day you'll wise up and see what a fool you're being now.

Yeah. Nice rant against "Postmodernism," completely irrelevant, and accompanied by another comment about how foolish I am. Yawn.

Ok, now try to give me any other use for drugs other than slowly killing people?


Uh.... medicine, recreation for two.

Economic supremacy doesn't equate cultural superiority, but it can certainly be an indicator of it.

No, it can't, because there is no "cultural superiority."

Anyway, I'm really happy you two found each other. When's the wedding?

That's still a lot.
"Still" a lot? It IS a lot!

I am appalled at this occurance, as I am by all cases of Honor Killings. I believe the people who did this must be dealt swift justice; death would be preferrable, but since this is the UK, at least life without parole.

However, this doesn't mean I think we should start bashing the Middle East and surrounding areas. In Pakistan (and I lived in Pakistan), there are Honor killings, but they aren't happening every second. There are over 150 million people in Pakistan, and when I lived in Islamabad, I never heard of any Honor Killings in the city. Maybe a few here or there may have happened in the slums, but it's not a huge occurance. It's mostly in Waziristan, the NWFP, and Balochistan.

Now, this would happen less if the international community stopped fucking around and tried to do something about it. Not just say "PAKSTAN ND TURKY AND TE ISLAMS R T3H EVILZ!", but get off their rich asses and DO something. Tell Musharraf "Hey, we like what you're doing to fight Islamists, but if you don't step it up a knotch, we'll pull funding. If you do, we'll even increase it", so he has a REASON to put more effort into it. The ISI is heavily pro-Islamist, so he'll need good reasons to take on these Honor Killings. Our puppet Zia put these Islamic laws protecting Honor Killings in the 80's to fight communism, it's our job to get rid of them.

I honestly do. A lot of them are fucking wacko. A sizable minority, if not a slight majority. Every culture has crazies. But muslims, mainly because they follow their millenia-old holy book to the letter, generally have MORE crazies.

As opposed to fundamentalist Christians and Jews, who merely...um...follow their millenia-old holy books to the letter?

I don't object to the statement that the majority of radical fundamentalists of whatever religion tend to have a slightly (or, in some cases, extremely) skewed view of reality. But it's absurd to claim that all Muslims are fundamentalists, or that fundamentalism is exclusive to Islam.

Fine, so which culture do you attribute the economy's health to? Gangsta rap, or emo? Or do you hold them to be the same culture, for the purposes of making an artificial "us" so you can continue your criticism of "them."

Have you been reading my posts? The cultures of Westernized, modern nations are the ones I'm talking about. The family of cultures that hold rights like property and free speech dear. The family of cultures that prize rule of law and a balance between law and individual freedoms. The family of cultures that first paid lip service to equality, then slowly and painfully made progress toward that goal.

I am not a "cultural relativist." What was that about strawmen? Really, then please state your position. All you've said so far is that I can't judge one cultural group superior to another, which is consistent with cultural relativism, and you've called me a nazi. Clearly showing you know nothing of national socialist ideology and are just talking out of your ass. So what do you believe, if anything?

Nor are my comments regarding your nazi-like stance in regards to "culture" but politics and idealogy. Nazism is a political idealogy, you see, not a culture. And that idealogy shares a few things with yours, is all. Really? What do Naziism and my point of view have in common? Even if they do have some minor similarities, can you honestly call me a nazi? After all, Hitler hated smoking. Is the American Cancer Society a neo nazi organization? Or are you just being stupidly inflamatory by labeling people nazis?



Calling your opponent a moron is a sign that you've just lost whatever lame-ass argument you think you were putting forth.
Calling your oponent a nazi is a clear sign of that as well. (see godwin's law) Therefore you lost this argument with your first post to me.


Yeah. Nice rant against "Postmodernism," completely irrelevant, and accompanied by another comment about how foolish I am. Yawn.
Well, since facts and logic don't seem to get through to you I'm left to ammuse myself by insulting you.

Have just read the original post and the article explaining what happened to the poor victim.

Dear God, whoever your god may be, what an awful fucking tragedy.

I would think individuals who do something like that should no longer be classified as humans, thus they do not have any human rights.
You can't just froth at the mouth and scream "they're animals!!!". A human is a human, biologically and thus they have human rights.

Doubtful. And I know I wouldn't. In fact, if my yuppie neighbor did this and I found out about it before the cops got to him, I'd shoot the son of a bitch. Go for a gut shot too, make him die slower.
So much for the rule of law, eh?

Horseshit. Our culture is no more superior. We have murder, we have rape, pedophilia, theft, war, genocide. Just like any other culture. Quit it with this cultural/ethnic supremacy/nazism crap, DCD. It's not you.
Incorrect. Standards of human rights in Europe are far higher than any other region on Earth.

Middle Eastern culture has stagnated and proliferation of honour killings and FGM is a sad indicator of its implosion. I don't think that the most extreme family practices in Europe are anywhere near honour killings and FGM. What do you value more, moral relativism or human (especially women's) rights?

My ass we do. We punish it when it suits us politically to do so and ignore it when it doesn't.
You mean that half of murders, reported rapes, etc go unpunished? That doesn't happen in western justice systems. In our culture no kind of murder is regarded as a family affair, as honour killings are in Pakistan.

And it's not like every Muslim 'celebrates' honor killings either.
Certainly not, but too many of them do.

No, they want in so they can get a good job. Argument dismissed.
You don't see how this is linked to culture at all? The Middle Easts religiosity is leading to economic stagnation. Universities in the Middle East produce more graduates in Islamic studies than graduates in science and engineering. Secularism is better than theocracy, both for culture and economy.

Unfounded statement. Dismissed.
Care to post an article about one of the no doubt numerous recent honour killings perpetrated by native Europeans?

Only an ignorant nazi would suggest cultural superiority due to economic factors.
Hello Godwin! I don't think that the Nazis actually claimed cultural superiority based on their economy so much as their skin colour.

Kill that entire family, drag them into a room and drop canisters of Zyklon B on them.
Spare only the children.
We've found the Nazi you were looking for, Santa.

These instances are the reason why I believe we need the death penatly. This bastard's going to live on the state's pound for the rest of his miserable life. Well, he'll probably get killed by the inmates...
The death penalty is barbaric. Abolishing it was another step that made us more civilised.

We prohibit "drugs" because of our "War on Drugs" and "drugs" are economically stimulating.
I hope you're under no illusions that the Middle East is more progressive than the West on this count.

Normal like... what? You? *shudders

Dreadful perspective...
You think this poster is worse than a man who commits and honour killing?

My fat ass. YOU are the one giving permission for racism, YOU are the one arguing in favor of stereotyping based on ethnicity, religion and culture. You're the one arguing for an "evil" here.
And yet Drunk Commies said in this very thread
Give them time and give them a chance. In the USA Muslims tend to be among the wealthiest and best educated people. They dont' commit much crime at all. They seem to be integrating pretty well over here with few exceptions.
Not much of an anti-Muslim/racist agenda there.

You misunderstand him. In his view you are creating an atmosphere in which honour killings, caste systems, slavery, FGM, etc are to be tolerated because supposedly the west commits equal atrocities. Your attitude will ensue that no progress is ever made.

Drugs also kill people. I don't see how ice harms anybody.

tell that to the fuckers on the titanic...

btw was it the ice or the bloke selling the ice that caused the row?

I didn't shoot jack shit. I differentiated between economics and culture, or economics and cultural superiority.

Only an ignorant nazi would suggest cultural superiority due to economic factors.
Except certain economical factors ONLY arise within a permissive enough culture. Back to the drawing board for you.

We prohibit "drugs" because of our "War on Drugs" and "drugs" are economically stimulating.

Do continue to live in dream world, mein freund.
Actually, it would be argued that the WoD is economically restrictive to everyone but columbians and gangbangers. Not to mention the ciggarette and alcohol companies. But that's largely irrelevant as no one is arguing that western culture is an anarchist paradise. It's just a hell of a lot less restrictive than Islamic culture.

So, you getting angry about Muslims declaring ice to be against their religion is petty instead of cultural?
No, I'm pretty sure he's angry that they slaughtered the ice sellers.

We must respect their culture.
Oh bullshit.

I'm a Hindu, a member of one of the religions that still has the caste system. This really pisses me off, and gives Hindus/people from a caste society a bad name.

Ths was just sick.

Unfounded statement. Dismissed.
You're not real bright, are ya. :rolleyes:

No, it can't, because there is no "cultural superiority."

Well, there would have to be or otherwise the UN would simply cease to exist. The human rights espoused by the UN are a product of the Western traditions of liberal democracy, religious tolerance, and personal freedom. Without a superior, "benchmark" culture it is impossible for any international organization to function.

That culture may be an amalgamation of Western democratic capitalism along with other traditions, but it is still the culture seen as most desirable and most encouraged.

Provided their human rights aren't infringed.

As her human rights weren't?

Well, there would have to be or otherwise the UN would simply cease to exist. The human rights espoused by the UN are a product of the Western traditions of liberal democracy, religious tolerance, and personal freedom. Without a superior, "benchmark" culture it is impossible for any international organization to function.

That culture may be an amalgamation of Western democratic capitalism along with other traditions, but it is still the culture seen as most desirable and most encouraged.

That's faulty reasoning. The UN consists of proponents of Western cultures, and that the UN supports its values over others - that's an example of self interest. Serving one's own goals doesn't mean those goals are actually superior.

And it certainly doesn't mean that if cultural superiority is not objectively supported, the UN would cease to exist. ;)


Incorrect. Standards of human rights in Europe are far higher than any other region on Earth.

Doesn't mean you meet those standards. And it doesn't mean that culture is superior.

Middle Eastern culture has stagnated and proliferation of honour killings and FGM is a sad indicator of its implosion. I don't think that the most extreme family practices in Europe are anywhere near honour killings and FGM. What do you value more, moral relativism or human (especially women's) rights?

I'm not arguing for any "ism," though I am arguing against idiotic hatred. If you don't like the "nazi" term for that kind of thinking perhaps "bigotry" will do it for you. No Godwin's Law now, what you gonna do about it?


You mean that half of murders, reported rapes, etc go unpunished?

I mean their "punishment" is generally weak, they are not reported in as much as you'd like, and they happen more than one would expect in someplace that is so CLEARLY SUPERIOR morally to some other culture.


Certainly not, but too many of them do.


And too many white men believe in white supremacist idealogies. Is this an appropriate basis for me to make statements about white men in general?


You don't see how this is linked to culture at all?

I never claimed economics has no link to culture. I did claim that economic health is not the result of cultural superiority.


Care to post an article about one of the no doubt numerous recent honour killings perpetrated by native Europeans?

Strawman, I never claimed that, nor is it necessary to support any statement I've made.

Hello Godwin!

Pointless comment, makes no statement on the validity of various observations, only on the frequency of their occurance.

I don't think that the Nazis actually claimed cultural superiority based on their economy so much as their skin colour.

No, it wasn't "skin colour." They can tell you there's far more to their idea of race than skin color. It's a sort of ethnic/cultural superiority club. The idea that one's own people are inherently, objectively superior to an entire other people. Frankly if you can't see how that is similar to what the anti-Muslim crowd has been talking about then there's no hope for communication here.

The nazis did blame their shitty economy on foreigners and non-"aryans" however.


I hope you're under no illusions that the Middle East is more progressive than the West on this count.

No, that's not why I brought the subject up. I brought it up because GA said that Western culture was superior because it doesn't prohibit economically stimulating resources.

The war on drugs directly shows that to be false, even IF we accept the logic that prohibiting any resource which could be economically stimulating makes own culture *inferior*.

Have you been reading my posts? The cultures of Westernized, modern nations are the ones I'm talking about. The family of cultures that hold rights like property and free speech dear. The family of cultures that prize rule of law and a balance between law and individual freedoms. The family of cultures that first paid lip service to equality, then slowly and painfully made progress toward that goal.

Yeah, so... gangsta rap and the KKK? Or are you excluding those cultures from Western culture? Perhaps marginalizing them? Ignoring them? Pretending they don't exist so you can live in fucking la-la land where your way is the right way?

Really, then please state your position. All you've said so far is that I can't judge one cultural group superior to another, which is consistent with cultural relativism, and you've called me a nazi. Clearly showing you know nothing of national socialist ideology and are just talking out of your ass. So what do you believe, if anything?

Heh... hard to attack me when you can't label me according to something arbitrary like "pinko" or "relativist" or "postmodernist."

All I've done so far is attack your 'reasons' for asserting that Muslims are inferior culturally. I've also compared some of those reasons with similar aspects of nazi-like idealogies. They too believed their culture was superior to anyone else's, see. So what do I believe? I believe that another 9/11 and you'll be advocating genocide.

Really? What do Naziism and my point of view have in common? Even if they do have some minor similarities, can you honestly call me a nazi? After all, Hitler hated smoking. Is the American Cancer Society a neo nazi organization?

No, I didn't say you were a National Socialist. I don't discount those similarities as "minor" though.

Well, since facts and logic don't seem to get through to you I'm left to ammuse myself by insulting you.

I'm receiving, is the operator transmitting? Over and out.

As many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings in 2003 according to Nilofer Bakhtiar, advisor to then-Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz.

Errrrr..Shaukat is still the PM...dunno if Niloufer is still an adviser or not.

But honor killings are a serious problem in that country (and immigrants from that country in UK). It is different from the usual husband killing the adulterous wife thing that is common in any country.

Here, the family kills the female member who transgress the unspoken rules of the community and bring shame to the family. Famous Pak activist Asma Jahangir has done a lot to expose this ugly side of her society.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999
On 6 April 1999, 29-year-old Samia Sarwar, a mother of two young sons, was shot dead in her lawyer's office in Lahore. She was murdered apparently because her mother and her husband's mother are sisters and Samia's attempt to divorce a husband she described to her lawyer as severely abusive, was seen to shame the family. In the 10 years of her marriage, Samia had suffered high levels of domestic violence. In 1995 she returned to her family home after her husband had thrown her down some stairs when she was pregnant.

Samia fled to Lahore on 26 March 1999, seeking help in the law firm AGHS and taking refuge in the women's shelter Dastak run by AGHS lawyers. The lawyers included Hina Jilani and Asma Jahangir, who is currently UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, arbitrary and summary executions and then chairperson of the HRCP. On 6 April, when Samia Sarwar was at her lawyer's office, Samia's mother arrived accompanied by Samia's uncle and a driver. The driver shot Samia in the head, killing her instantly.

The fact that the killing was carried out in the presence of well-known lawyers indicates that the perpetrators were convinced they were doing the right thing, were not afraid of publicity and felt no need to hide their identity as they felt sure that the state would not hold them to account. They were right. Despite a First Information Report (FIR, the report filed by the complainants with police which initiates a police investigation) filed the same day, nominating Samia's father, mother and uncle for murder, no one has yet been arrested.

Newspapers in the North West Frontier Province reported that the public overwhelmingly supported the killing, with many arguing that since it was in accordance with tradition it could not be a crime.

The Chamber of Commerce in Peshawar, of which Samia's father is President, and several religious organizations demanded that Hina Jilani and Asma Jahangir be dealt with in accordance with "tribal and Islamic law" and be arrested for "misleading women in Pakistan and contributing to the country's bad image abroad". Fatwas [religious rulings] were issued against both women and head money was promised to anyone who killed them. In April 1999 Asma Jahangir lodged a FIR with police against those who had threatened her and her sister with death. Simultaneously, she called on the government to set up a judicial inquiry headed by a Supreme Court judge to investigate almost 300 cases of honour killings reported in 1998 in Pakistan. No action is known to have been taken on either issue.

Read about karo-kari and you will be thanking your stars that you are not a woman in NWFP, Pakistan.

As opposed to fundamentalist Christians and Jews, who merely...um...follow their millenia-old holy books to the letter?

I don't object to the statement that the majority of radical fundamentalists of whatever religion tend to have a slightly (or, in some cases, extremely) skewed view of reality. But it's absurd to claim that all Muslims are fundamentalists, or that fundamentalism is exclusive to Islam.

Actually, thanks to the Pope, Christians get to pick and choose, only using the love and care parts. Jews... I'm not sure about them, but there're so few of them that we don't have to worry.

Uh.... medicine, recreation for two.

Good. Now recreation is arguable; it can be argued that people shouldn't be allow to use dangerous and mind-altering drugs, because they can harm other people as well. For medicine? You've just argued in favour of ultra-regulated production of some drugs.

No, it can't, because there is no "cultural superiority."

Sure, just keep telling yourself that over and over again.

I'm a Hindu, a member of one of the religions that still has the caste system. This really pisses me off, and gives Hindus/people from a caste society a bad name.

Ths was just sick.

And there's another of my key arguments. I said immigrants were troublesome. Y'all assumed I said muslims were troublesome. The first person to mention muslims was Cabra West, not me or Drunk commies.

No, I'm pretty sure he's angry that they slaughtered the ice sellers.

Not so much angry, but it's a good point of how backwards they are.

england should "honor kill" all the family males as a reasonable response to this crime

I'm sorry, but those who are arguing that the honor killings aren't linked to the perpetrators' culture are just ridiculous.

Our culture also has its vices, but this particular problem is not quite as prevalent in our culture.

In any case, murder is murder, and this sort of behavior should never, ever be excused. I don't care if it's part of their culture or their religion (a weak excuse, since many muslims obviously are completely respectful of the law and don't participate in barbaric bullshit like this), this is not acceptable, period.