NationStates Jolt Archive

Obviously by the end of 1944/begining of 1945, the Germans had realised that they were beaten. Despite their silly counter-offensive in the west, the plain facts were that both the soviets and the western allies had achieved a huge theater advantage in men and material over german forces and the end of the reich must, therefore, be an inevitability. Indeed, hitler went so far as to decree a scorched earth policy in order to destroy the german people for what he considered a betrayal of national socialism: that is, losing the war.

The scorched earth policy, and the attitude that gave rise to it, however, raises an interesting question. It's clear that the those who were prepared to carry out these orders - and many were - were intent on raising a huge funeral pyre of dead to commemorate the end of the reich. No level of destruction or depravity was beyond thought or action, nevertheless, there was still one action that they did not undertake.

The Germans, despite all that they were prepared to inflict upon thier own homeland, never used - or seemingly - considered using gas warfare!

As far as I understand it, the germans were far ahead of the rest of the world at that point insofar as nerve agents and gas warfare was concerned. Further, both soviet and allied troops were totally unprepared to weather any form of gas warfare at that point. Given that the germans were clearly prepared to go to any length to inflict as much damage as possible in all possible cases and to all possible parties, I find it curious that by 1945 gas warfare had not, once again, reared its ugly head; especially considering that in the mid war period the germans had incredibly improved the efficacy of gas agents and, therefore, the potential to create havoc with enemy lines and inflict casualties far greater than actually occurred existed.

I understand that the 'pat' answer is that germany was worried about reprisals. But given that they clearly understood that the war was lost and were inflicting a scorched earth policy of attempted genocide upon their own people, I find that answer unconvincing. Clearly, they had decided at that point that they were doomed to extinction and were interested only in creating as much havoc as possible.

So my question remains. Why did germany not resort to gas warfare as a last effort, even when they knew their destruction was immenent?

Before you answer, I am well aware that not all factions, i.e. Albert Speer, subscribed to 'scorched earth' and indeed, worked against it. I am also aware that some germans in the east were fighting for the opportunity to delay soviet occupation in order to allow escape to the west for civillians etc. and obviously would not therefore want to 'queer' the pitch. Despite this, there were enough germans with sufficient authority who subscribed to 'scorched earth' and all it entails to launch a gas warfare effort. So why didn't it happen?

So to distill the question at hand: Gas warfare, why was it not used at all in WWII?

Don't reply if the sum and substance of your knowledge of WWII is the movie "Patton".

Gas warfare is not an effective modern battlefield weapon. In WWI, when there were enormous concentrations of troops, it could be decisive. In WWII, warfare had evolved into a much more mobile affair.

My guess is that by then The Germans never sought the need to make large quantities of Poison Gas so they never did, and by then it was to late and they were focusing on other more important things to produce like weapons and ammo and shit. Unless I have made an error and they did stockpile gas but to the best of my knowlege they didn't, they probably never anticipated the situation they faced because they were so hopped up on being hardcore supreme winners. Losers.

Good point.

I'm not really sure. If I had to guess I'd guess that Hitler was either:

A: More focused on scorching Germany to punish it than killing Russians or Westerners

B: The German Government, Hitler and the rest, were concerned for post-war Germany, and didn't want to have the restraints that gas-warfare would've put on them once occupation set in.

Gas warfare is not an effective modern battlefield weapon. In WWI, when there were enormous concentrations of troops, it could be decisive. In WWII, warfare had evolved into a much more mobile affair.

But it is an effective modern battlefield weapon. Hence the current brouhaha in Iraq.

In any case, the conditions of WWI did not pertain to WWII. My understanding is the germans had evolved nerve agents in the mid war period, and, clearly they were no longer limited by artillery as a method of delivery. Given that the allies were unprotected and that they didn't give a shit about their own casualties, I find it odd that they never tried to use this on any scale.

A: More focused on scorching Germany to punish it than killing Russians or Westerners


Yes. This is my thinking also. But I'm curious whether there is some real structural reason why they never at least tried.

Terror, and fear of retribution, was never a concern. Just look at the V rocket/bomb programme.

But it is an effective modern battlefield weapon. Hence the current brouhaha in Iraq.

In any case, the conditions of WWI did not pertain to WWII. My understanding is the germans had evolved nerve agents in the mid war period, and, clearly they were no longer limited by artillery as a method of delivery. Given that the allies were unprotected and that they didn't give a shit about their own casualties, I find it odd that they never tried to use this on any scale.

How do you deliver it?

Also, you are leaving out Hitlers delusions that the Western powers would wake up and discover the USSR was evil and join the Germans to defeat them.

The Bulge was a gamble which they thought they could throw the Brits and Americans into the sea and then focus on the Soviets.

Many issues at play.

Never mind the fact that Hitler could have ordered the destruction of germany but more then likely many would not listen to the order.

Off topic bu interseting, Hitler was most likley gay, theres a book out all about gayness in the Nazi leadership called the Pink Swastika. I'm not against gays but its funny, appearntly he had a "run in" with another male soldier in ww1 in the trenches were that soliders dick somehow got up hitlers ass, the other soldiers caught them and gave them shit for it....and apperantly the top Nazi brass had other pretty xtreme homosexual flings....just throwing this out there to help start a fire.:eek:

How do you deliver it?

Also, you are leaving out Hitlers delusions that the Western powers would wake up and discover the USSR was evil and join the Germans to defeat them.

The Bulge was a gamble which they thought they could throw the Brits and Americans into the sea and then focus on the Soviets.

Many issues at play.

Never mind the fact that Hitler could have ordered the destruction of germany but more then likely many would not listen to the order.

Well obviously by then aircraft delivered bombs would have been a preferred method.

And despite what you think about the bulge, it is clear that many in the german high command were prepared to inflict the most pain possible upon the allies for little, if any, pratical gain.

I personally don't think they ever believed that it would suceed in throwing the allies back into the sea.

Off topic bu interseting, Hitler was most likley gay, theres a book out all about gayness in the Nazi leadership called the Pink Swastika. I'm not against gays but its funny, appearntly he had a "run in" with another male soldier in ww1 in the trenches were that soliders dick somehow got up hitlers ass, the other soldiers caught them and gave them shit for it....and apperantly the top Nazi brass had other pretty xtreme homosexual flings....just throwing this out there to help start a fire.:eek:

A great deal of the 'hitler is gay' stuff is a relic of the SOE.

Off topic bu interseting, Hitler was most likley gay, theres a book out all about gayness in the Nazi leadership called the Pink Swastika. I'm not against gays but its funny, appearntly he had a "run in" with another male soldier in ww1 in the trenches were that soliders dick somehow got up hitlers ass, the other soldiers caught them and gave them shit for it....and apperantly the top Nazi brass had other pretty xtreme homosexual flings....just throwing this out there to help start a fire.:eek:

Sounds like the author has a thing about gays.

My great-aunt met him. Said he was a charming man.

Amazon had the book listed and as one person said there were too many "probablies" in it to take the book seriously.

Sounds like the author has a thing about gays.

My great-aunt met him. Said he was a charming man.

Amazon had the book listed and as one person said there were too many "probablies" in it to take the book seriously.

I heard about the book, but also saw some things on the history channel, maybe he was bi though because he did have that thing for his niece.

Well obviously by then aircraft delivered bombs would have been a preferred method.

And despite what you think about the bulge, it is clear that many in the german high command were prepared to inflict the most pain possible upon the allies for little, if any, pratical gain.

I personally don't think they ever believed that it would suceed in throwing the allies back into the sea.

The Luftwaffe by 1944 was pretty much done. By the time of D-Day; the Germans were shifting fighter wings from the East which left the Russians in control of the sky for Bagration.

It's doubtbul they could have delivered enough to have been effective.

It's also been suggested that Hitler was a masochist who liked um... yucky stuff. :p

I'll never forget that lovely british song;

Hitler has only got one ball,
Göring has two but very small,
Himmler has something sim'lar,
But Goebbels has no balls at all.

:D

The Luftwaffe by 1944 was pretty much done. By the time of D-Day; the Germans were shifting fighter wings from the East which left the Russians in control of the sky for Bagration.

It's doubtbul they could have delivered enough to have been effective.

I'm not suggesting that it would have won the war. I don't believe it would. I do wonder, however, that given the attitude that was shown towards casualties on both sides it wasn't employed.

It's also been suggested that Hitler was a masochist who liked um... yucky stuff. :p

I'll never forget that lovely british song;

Hitler has only got one ball,
Göring has two but very small,
Himmler has something sim'lar,
But Goebbels has no balls at all.

:D

wicked!

I might be wrong about this but... my understanding is that when Hitler fought in the first world war, he narrowly survived a gas attack, and thus he had strong opinions on the use of it.

It's interesting to note, that Churchill was considering the use of mustard gas if the Germans had landed an amphibious assault on English shores, and he had no compunctions at all about using gas on 'savage peoples' (his words, not mine) in Iraq, etc.

As far as I know, it goes like this...

Hitler had seen gas used as a "wonder weapon" whose advocates in the military siezed on it as 'a war winner'. He saw first hand that it was not. This was part of his education which convinced him that the established military hierarchy was filled with morons and that things needed to be changed from top to bottom.

To him, I think it was "yesterday's _failed_ weapon" and while the experts convinced him to make sure he didn't fall behind in the arms race for it, in case someone _else_ used it, I don't think he ever really had any desire to use the stuff.

Using gas at that point would not have helped his operational picture because everyone would have started getting on their rubber suits and gas masks. All the armies (including his) were prepared to do so. Yes, huge numbers of soldiers would die from heat exhaustion. But what it would do is destroy the operational efficiency of the germans, who relied on being nimble and quick with their mechanized corps' "fists".

And bitter as Hitler was at the German people for their failures, he couldn't turn the gas weapons on them because frankly he was barey in control at this point. There had been one serious attempt to kill him, and many other plots. He _knew_ that a solid minority of the Germans hated him and that he could never predict the reliability of any of his followers. For example, Admiral Canaris was a bloody allied informer! and he was one of the highest ranking figures in the German intelligence community!

Hitler could not count on enough officers executing such extreme orders. Even with the murder of the Jews by the Special Purpose Groups, he had to pick and choose for people suited to the task. And the Jews were a _minority_. He had tapped his supply of sufficiently obedient lackeys just to keep the Holocaust rolling.

Perhaps he could have found some spare fanatics in some divisions who might have started doing it...but I think he wasn't eager to test the loyalty of the army too much. He already had reports of some Waffen-SS units being attacked by members of the regular army.

(At one point in the second battle for Kiev, for example, a German penal battalion and the Russian defenders it was assaulting joined them in attacking an SS police unity that was trying to prevent the retreat of the penal unit. The penal unit got away with it, too, but the sudden disappearance of the SS police unit must have looked awfully peculiar to whomever was reviewing the records of the battle at the time. We know of this account because a biography of a Danish deserter in this unit (I think the book was call "Legion of the Damned") covers it...

I'm sure this was not an isolated incident, given the fact that Himmler and Goering were both trying to make private armies to compete with the Wehrmacht. I mean, Goering got two +mechanized infantry+ divisions, explain what _that_ has to do with the airforce, hrm ? And such private army ambitions were creating a lot of tension and an abundance of informal agents spying on each other.)

Besides, I think he felt confident the Russians and French and British would be more than happy to continue the "punishment" he started.

Also, I simply don't recall any histories I read of the war emphasizing this. I'm not contesting it, because it's consistent with his character and personality, but like many of his private obsessions (say, the occult) I don't think it had a big effect on day to day policy. You didn't see hermetic magicians advising the general staff, for example :)

All the gas was needed to kill the jews.
Allied Soldiers were supplied with Gas masks for D-Day.

Who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think we're on the run,
We are the boys who will stop your little game.
We are the boys who will make you think again.
'Cus who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think old England's done?

Mr. Brown goes off to town
On the 8:21.
But he comes home each evening
And he's ready with his gun.

So watch out Mr. Hitler
You have met your match in us.
If you think you can push us
We're afraid you've missed the bus.

so who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think old England's done.

As far as I know, one of the main problems of using gas as a weapon against enemies is that you need the exact right amounts at the exact place and - most importantly - in the exact meterological conditions.

Gas had proved ineffective in WW I, being distributed to fast in windy conditions, or even being blown back to the own troops rather than killing the enemy. Gas had more or less seriously wounded more people than it had killed, it was not easy to manufacture and it was not easy to distribute. These were at least some of the reasons why the Nazi regime (Hitler most of all, as far as I know) oppsed the idea of using gas as a weapon on the battlefield.

As far as I know, one of the main problems of using gas as a weapon against enemies is that you need the exact right amounts at the exact place and - most importantly - in the exact meterological conditions.

Gas had proved ineffective in WW I, being distributed to fast in windy conditions, or even being blown back to the own troops rather than killing the enemy. Gas had more or less seriously wounded more people than it had killed, it was not easy to manufacture and it was not easy to distribute. These were at least some of the reasons why the Nazi regime (Hitler most of all, as far as I know) oppsed the idea of using gas as a weapon on the battlefield.
I wonder why you know this.
*Shifty eyes*

my guess is the materials could not be produced.
Why make gas when you could make petrol. Why drop gas bombs when you can drop high explosive.

Sounds like the author has a thing about gays.

My great-aunt met him. Said he was a charming man.

Amazon had the book listed and as one person said there were too many "probablies" in it to take the book seriously.
How did your great aunt get to meet him?

Obviously by the end of 1944/begining of 1945, the Germans had realised that they were beaten. Despite their silly counter-offensive in the west, the plain facts were that both the soviets and the western allies had achieved a huge theater advantage in men and material over german forces and the end of the reich must, therefore, be an inevitability. Indeed, hitler went so far as to decree a scorched earth policy in order to destroy the german people for what he considered a betrayal of national socialism: that is, losing the war.

The scorched earth policy, and the attitude that gave rise to it, however, raises an interesting question. It's clear that the those who were prepared to carry out these orders - and many were - were intent on raising a huge funeral pyre of dead to commemorate the end of the reich. No level of destruction or depravity was beyond thought or action, nevertheless, there was still one action that they did not undertake.

The Germans, despite all that they were prepared to inflict upon thier own homeland, never used - or seemingly - considered using gas warfare!

As far as I understand it, the germans were far ahead of the rest of the world at that point insofar as nerve agents and gas warfare was concerned. Further, both soviet and allied troops were totally unprepared to weather any form of gas warfare at that point. Given that the germans were clearly prepared to go to any length to inflict as much damage as possible in all possible cases and to all possible parties, I find it curious that by 1945 gas warfare had not, once again, reared its ugly head; especially considering that in the mid war period the germans had incredibly improved the efficacy of gas agents and, therefore, the potential to create havoc with enemy lines and inflict casualties far greater than actually occurred existed.

I understand that the 'pat' answer is that germany was worried about reprisals. But given that they clearly understood that the war was lost and were inflicting a scorched earth policy of attempted genocide upon their own people, I find that answer unconvincing. Clearly, they had decided at that point that they were doomed to extinction and were interested only in creating as much havoc as possible.

So my question remains. Why did germany not resort to gas warfare as a last effort, even when they knew their destruction was immenent?

Before you answer, I am well aware that not all factions, i.e. Albert Speer, subscribed to 'scorched earth' and indeed, worked against it. I am also aware that some germans in the east were fighting for the opportunity to delay soviet occupation in order to allow escape to the west for civillians etc. and obviously would not therefore want to 'queer' the pitch. Despite this, there were enough germans with sufficient authority who subscribed to 'scorched earth' and all it entails to launch a gas warfare effort. So why didn't it happen?

So to distill the question at hand: Gas warfare, why was it not used at all in WWII?

Don't reply if the sum and substance of your knowledge of WWII is the movie "Patton".
Hitler had suffered injuries by gas in WW1, so maybe He just hated the stuff so much he couldn't bare to use it.

I wonder why you know this.
*Shifty eyes*

History lessons at school?