NationStates Jolt Archive

I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

You couldn't be more right.

Then there's also all those people on death row who were cleared by DNA evidence. I can imagine that there are probably others for whom there was no comprehensive DNA evidence to clear them.
Does anyone have statistics on how many innocent people have been put to death in recent years?

I'm not against the Death Penalty Per Se, However it needs to be reformed dramaticlly. There should be a higher standered of evidence(like DNA) it should be applied fairly (why are ther so many Black men and so few White women on Death Row either in pure numbers or per capita of murders) There should be well funded public defenders that only handle capital cases to prevent the rich from buying freedom or the poor from being victims of their own poverty.

But should child raping murderers be put to death? Oh hell yeah. Once proven in court ....I say a long showy death ...disenboweling perhaps?


I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

But should child raping murderers be put to death? Oh hell yeah. Once proven in court ....I say a long showy death ...disenboweling perhaps?
Well, if not for that whole "cruel and unusual punishment", y'know... :rolleyes:

The main argument against the death penalty is that no government should be given the power of life and death over its citizens. I cannot understand why libertarian/conservatives who fear government often are in favor of giving the government that kind of power.

Simonist']Well, if not for that whole "cruel and unusual punishment", y'know... :rolleyes:

The constitution (is that the American word?) is sooooo overrated. :rolleyes:

I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.
You win at NS.

The main argument against the death penalty is that no government should be given the power of life and death over its citizens. I cannot understand why libertarian/conservatives who fear government often are in favor of giving the government that kind of power.
Who said that not only do libertarians fear government, but they're in favour of that? I'm a staunch libertarian yet I don't believe the death penalty is right, nor do I believe anybody should have the power. Thanks for boxing us up so nicely, if incorrectly.

I'm not against the Death Penalty Per Se, However it needs to be reformed dramaticlly. There should be a higher standered of evidence(like DNA) it should be applied fairly (why are ther so many Black men and so few White women on Death Row either in pure numbers or per capita of murders) There should be well funded public defenders that only handle capital cases to prevent the rich from buying freedom or the poor from being victims of their own poverty.

But should child raping murderers be put to death? Oh hell yeah. Once proven in court ....I say a long showy death ...disenboweling perhaps?
But what about that one guy who get's convicted no matter what you do, but is actually innocent? It's impossible to have an infallible justice system. How would you feel if you sponsored that one person's messy torture and execution (how barbaric, by the way) and seconds later found out that there was dramatic evidence that he was actually innocent, evidence that if it had been present in the courtroom, would have given him a unanimous verdict of not guilty? How would it feel to be an accomplice to his murder, carried away by your own bloodlust?

Simonist']Who said that not only do libertarians fear government, but they're in favour of that? I'm a staunch libertarian yet I don't believe the death penalty is right, nor do I believe anybody should have the power. Thanks for boxing us up so nicely, if incorrectly.

Give it a rest. I didn't say all libertarians, but rather those conservatives, with a fear-your-government libertarian streak, who none-the-less are the most vocal advocates of the death penalty.

The constitution (is that the American word?) is sooooo overrated. :rolleyes:

And yet it is the longest continually used constitution in the world.

The constitution (is that the American word?) is sooooo overrated. :rolleyes:

You'll get used to it. All you Canadians will officially be United States-ians soon enough. Yes, even the Quebecois. (mwah ha ha)

And yet it is the longest continually used constitution in the world.

Dude, that *may* be a good thing, but it's not necessarily or automatically a positive mark for it.

And yet it is the longest continually used constitution in the world.

And sarcasm is the longest continual form of humour used on NS. Do I need to spell it out for you?

The constitution (is that the American word?) is sooooo overrated. :rolleyes:
Great, now you think we should shred the American constitution because you want to be a barbarian.

You'll get used to it. All you Canadians will officially be United States-ians soon enough. Yes, even the Quebecois. (mwah ha ha)
God, please don't....not the Quebecois....we don't want the Quebecois.

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think we even want the rest of Canada.

Great, now you think we should shred the American constitution because you want to be a barbarian.

Read my response to The Ogiek People.

I wholeheartedly agree, the death penalty is dangerous because the justice system can make a mistake.

The main argument against the death penalty is that no government should be given the power of life and death over its citizens. I cannot understand why libertarian/conservatives who fear government often are in favor of giving the government that kind of power.
Excellent point. Never thought about it like that before.

ETA: Oh, well, then again - they probably say it's not the government, seeing how that elusive infallible "jury of one's peers" does the determining of who deserves to die and who doesn't. Hm.

I am against the death penalty because it is not cruel enough.

Putting an innocent person in maximum security jail (with all the sorts of people you find in there) for the rest of their life is a pretty serious thing also. And after al his appeals are exausted the chances of him being let out is pretty minimal. So I am not entirely sure it is better than the death penalty.

Then the question rests on the procedure that put them there (judicial system, rights of appeal etc).

Also the government can’t avoid being responsible for killing citizens in a sense. Failure to catch a murderer or imprisonment of an innocent person can both be expected to result in premature death.

Ok how many people in the world have been given the death penalty?So after all those people have been exacuted has crime really been detered?No,people kill people,rob people,rape people,and commit horrible crimes,its seems to me that the system the world today has is completely flawed,instead of fixing the problem we 1)sometimes kill innocent people 2)put criminals in jail with other criminals and the either die,kill,rape,or just find another reason and method to commit another crime (checkmate peeps) DXSUCK IT!

Dude, that *may* be a good thing, but it's not necessarily or automatically a positive mark for it.

No, but generally standing the test of time is an indication of the worth of a thing. The main problem with the American Constitution at this point is that we have a government that choses to ignore it and a public that doesn't seem to care that they do.

I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

Yeah, that's why I'm against imprisonment. If even one innocent person is imprisoned, we're all accomplices to kidnapping. And if that innocent person dies in prison, we're all accomplices to murder. And if that innocent person is raped in prison, we're all accomplices to that too.

Ban imprisonment!

Yeah, that's why I'm against imprisonment. If even one innocent person is imprisoned, we're all accomplices to kidnapping. And if that innocent person dies in prison, we're all accomplices to murder. And if that innocent person is raped in prison, we're all accomplices to that too.

Ban imprisonment!
http://products.listal.com/images/nodrop/180/0060296410/books/a-series-of-unfortunate-events-10-the-slippery-slope-series--380.jpg

http://products.listal.com/images/nodrop/180/0060296410/books/a-series-of-unfortunate-events-10-the-slippery-slope-series--380.jpg

No, a slippery slope fallacy is when one argues that if X happens, Y will happen too. I am not arguing that if the death penalty is abolished, so too will imprisonment. I am simply taking the exact same argument against the death penalty and applying it to prison, in order to show the inconsistency of such reasonings (in that anti-death penalty advocates are rarely if ever against imprisonment, despite it too having irreversible, negative effects on the innocent).

http://products.listal.com/images/nodrop/180/0060296410/books/a-series-of-unfortunate-events-10-the-slippery-slope-series--380.jpg

Thats a good book.

No, a slippery slope fallacy is when one argues that if X happens, Y will happen too. I am not arguing that if the death penalty is abolished, so too will imprisonment. I am simply taking the exact same argument against the death penalty and applying it to prison, in order to show the inconsistency of such reasonings (in that anti-death penalty advocates are rarely if ever against imprisonment, despite it too having irreversible, negative effects on the innocent).
Life is a bit less negative than death.

Life is a bit less negative than death.

...and imprisonment can include death, unless in your world the justice system is perfect.

WARDEN: "My God, you didn't inject him already did you!? The governor just called and pardoned him!"

EXECUTIONER IN DEATH CHAMBER: "Yes, I did. What should I do?"

WARDEN: "Are you sure he's dead?"

<sound of pistol shot>

EXECUTIONER: "Yes."

I agree, death penaty is barbaric.On one hand the state says -killing opeople is wrong, then they go kill someone.The administrator then becomes a state sponsered murderer.As ghandi said, if we all took an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth then we would all be blind and toothless.The state should have the moral high groung, the death penalty puts blood on the states hands.Not only that but the death penaty is like a get out clause-these people should have to live with what theyve done.Not to mention then the person may have been innocent-at least if their imprisoned they can be relased when new evidence comes to light 20 years later-you cant resurect a 20yr old corpse.

I agree, death penaty is barbaric.On one hand the state says -killing opeople is wrong, then they go kill someone.The administrator then becomes a state sponsered murderer.As ghandi said, if we all took an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth then we would all be blind and toothless.The state should have the moral high groung, the death penalty puts blood on the states hands.Not only that but the death penaty is like a get out clause-these people should have to live with what theyve done.Not to mention then the person may have been innocent-at least if their imprisoned they can be relased when new evidence comes to light 20 years later-you cant resurect a 20yr old corpse.

I agree with all of the above (other than the occasional grammatical flaw).

I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

I agree with most of the main principles in your statement.

...and imprisonment can include death, unless in your world the justice system is perfect.
That's an unfortunate event. Killing someone is a bit more bold.

I agree with all of the above (other than the occasional grammatical flaw).
I know, I cant type or spell or use proper punctuation(probably why im failing college)

I know, I cant type or spell or use proper punctuation(probably why im failing college)

It wasn't that bad. There were a few comma splices, that's all.

And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

Amen

I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

Good point. Other points:

1) It's state sponsered murder (morally and culturally wrong)
2) Costs more than simply locking them up (I think)

I agree, death penaty is barbaric.On one hand the state says -killing opeople is wrong, then they go kill someone.The administrator then becomes a state sponsered murderer.As ghandi said, if we all took an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth then we would all be blind and toothless.The state should have the moral high groung, the death penalty puts blood on the states hands.Not only that but the death penaty is like a get out clause-these people should have to live with what theyve done.Not to mention then the person may have been innocent-at least if their imprisoned they can be relased when new evidence comes to light 20 years later-you cant resurect a 20yr old corpse.

I've heard some people argue the death penalty is an easy way out. And they want them to rot and suffer in prison. Would we really feel any better about freeing someone who had spent 20 years in (what I would suspect would be a high security prison if the crime is deserving of a death penalty) prison. Than having killed someone and realising we were wrong 20 years later.

I've heard some people argue the death penalty is an easy way out. And they want them to rot and suffer in prison. Would we really feel any better about freeing someone who had spent 20 years in (what I would suspect would be a high security prison if the crime is deserving of a death penalty) prison. Than having killed someone and realising we were wrong 20 years later.
Yes.

Though it's not really about us and what we feel, is it...

Capital punishment turns the state into a murderer. But imprisonment turns the state into a gay dungeon-master.~~Jesse Jackson

The death penalty cannot be justified. A country cannot join the EU if it has the death penalty on its law books. A person cannot be extradited from the EU if they face the death penalty when so extradited. The EU spends a chunk of taxpayers money every year trying to repeal the death penalty around the world and in paying to defend people on trial for their lives.

"As one reads history, not in the expurgated editions written for schoolboys and passmen, but in the original authorities of each time, one is absolutely sickened, not by the crimes that the wicked have committed, but by the punishments that the good have inflicted; and a community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." ~Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man Under Socialism

Good point. Other points:

1) It's state sponsered murder (morally and culturally wrong)
2) Costs more than simply locking them up (I think)

The cost is due to the lengthy appeal process. Otherwise, it would be cheaper.

I still don't see how someone who spends, say 28 years in prison for murder, and is then found innocent can "somehow get his life back".

As far as your original life is concerned, you're long dead. Your life, if any, is in prison.

It wasn't that bad. There were a few comma splices, that's all.
your too kind TC!;)

The cost is due to the lengthy appeal process. Otherwise, it would be cheaper.

I still don't see how someone who spends, say 28 years in prison for murder, and is then found innocent can "somehow get his life back".

As far as your original life is concerned, you're long dead. Your life, if any, is in prison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

Though he was only in prison for 27 years, and was a guilty man, he has done a lot with his life after being released...

In addition to the OPs reason, I also believe we should prolong convicted killers/molesters/rapists suffering for as long as possible before they meet their maker...force them to think about the crimes the committed day after day after day after day.

Plus, it gives you the chance to prove innocence and be released if new evidence arises.

I couldn't really shed a tear for the murderers and rapists who get put to death. I really don't care when they use lethal chemicals to end their life. But I'm against the death penalty for one reason alone.
Our justice system is flawed.
It always will be flawed.
Even some of those people who look as guilty as sin could actually be innocent.
The police could have framed them, the jury could be bribed, the evidence could be tampered with, or they could have just been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
And sometimes they just get shitty defense lawyers who can't do jack.
So I don't care how many appeals there are, or how deep the investigation, some innocent people will slip through the net.
And if even ONE innocent person is put to death, we are all accomplices to murder.

I don’t think that anyone is trying to say that the justice system is perfect, but there are some people who are way to dangerous to be left alive. Our justice system is set up to where there can’t be a shadow of a doubt that someone is innocent for them to be executed. Lethal injection is probably, so far, the most humane way to end a criminal’ life. I’m not one of those people who is in love with the death penalty, and I don’t believe the death penalty is a deterrent for crime or a lack there of. But I do believe that if we refuse to execute someone is plainly guilty and they get the chance to kill again, it is recklessness on our part.