NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/697458.html

Sixty-eight percent of Israeli Jews would refuse to live in the same apartment building as an Israeli Arab, according to the results of an annual poll released Wednesday by the Center for the Struggle Against Racism.

The "Index of Racism Towards Arab Palestinian Citizens of the State of Israel," conducted by Geocartographia, revealed on 26 percent of Jews in Israel would agree to live with Arab neighbors in the same building.

Forty-six percent of Jews would refuse to allow an Arab to visit their home while 50 percent would welcome an Arab visitor. Forty-one percent of Jewish support the segregation of Jews and Arabs in places of recreation and 52 percent of such Jews would oppose such a move.

The inclination toward segregation rises as the income level of the poll respondent drops and also as the level of religious observance rises. Support for segregation between Jews and Arabs is also higher among Jews of Middle Eastern origin as opposed to those of European origin.

"Racism is becoming mainstream. When people talk about transfer or about Arabs as a demographic time-bomb, no one raises their voice against such statements. This is a worrisome phenomenon," Bachar Ouda, director of the Center for the Struggle Against Racism, said on Tuesday. The report covered the year 2005 and the center will, in the future, present monthly and bi-annual polls.

The index, edited by Ouda and attorney Ala Khaider, surveys racially-motivated incidents that took place during 2005 and examines the attitudes of Israeli Jews toward Israeli Arabs.

During the course of 2005, 225 racially-motivated incidents directed at Arab citizens were reported to the center or in the media. The center believes that less than 20 percent of attacks or other incidents are ever reported.

Seventy-fire percent of the reports on racist incidents came from institutional sources such as government ministries, government companies or publicly-elected officials.

The poll further revealed that 63 percent of Jewish Israelis agree with the statement, "Arabs are a security and demographic threat to the state." Thirty-one percent of Jews did not agree. Agreement with the statement was strongest among Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews and low-income earners.

Forty percent of Jews believe "the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens" and just 52 percent don't agree with the statement.

Thirty-four percent also agreed with the statement that "Arab culture is inferior to Israeli culture." Fifty-seven percent did not agree with the statement.

Half of Israeli Jews express fear or discomfort when hearing people speaking Arabic. Eighteen percent of Jews said they feel hate when hearing Arabic speakers.

Responding to the report, Hadash Chairman MK Mohammed Barakeh said racism against Israeli Arabs "is a direct result of official racist and discriminatory policies" dictated by the government.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/696933.html

The state prosecutor on Tuesday ordered police to open a criminal investigation into Rabbi David Batzri, a prominent sage preaching Jewish mysticism, who is suspected of racist incitement.

Police will also investigate Batzri's son, Rabbi Yitzhak Batzri.

The prosecution's order came in the wake of comments made by the suspects during a conference held some two months ago in Jerusalem's Pat neighborhood.

According to suspicions, the Batzris allegedly made the racist comments at the conference which was held to rally support against the establishment of a bilingual school for Jewish and Arab students in the heart of the Pat neighborhood.

Rabbi David Batzri said, "the establishment of such a school is a despicable and sinful act. An Arab cannot contaminate what is pure. It is forbidden to blend darkness and light. The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction."

Rabbi Yitzhak Batzri said, "The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure."

Following an appeal made by the Israel Religious Action Center, Deputy State Prosecutor Shai Nitzan ordered a criminal probe of the two rabbis with the support of Attorney General Menachem Mazuz.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), equated Zionism with racism.

In accordance to studies of British and American psychologists, Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, was a psychopath. His children committed suicide.

Oh, I get it, this is a "Leftists bash the j00z!" thread...Typical.

Gee, I can't even comprehend not wanting to live next to an Arab in a country that is constantly being attacked by them...Maybe i'd be a bit jumpy around em' as well if one of them blew up my neighbor in a Starbucks.

Ooh, and a story about one biggoted kook making racist statements against Arabs...Boy, if that ever proves that the Je--er, Israelis are nothing but a bunch of big-no--er, imperialist bastards, I don't know what does.


:rolleyes:

This should be amusing.....

Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

I see he's just going to post his so-called "proof" of Jewish "racism" without actually talking to anyone about it. Can we get this thread burned as spam?

Leftist: "Z0MG! J00Z=rAciSte! Final Solution time! Z0mGWTFBBQ!1111one!"

Real intelligent. Real tolerant.

I just don't care about Jews and i just don't like Mus... er... Ara... er.. Terr... er.. never mind...

This news doesn't seem particularly irrelevant, Minokio, and it doesn't seem like spam. But then again, I don't know the original poster.

Whatever the case, while one could say that a good part of the Jewish Israeli fear of and/or racism against Arabs is somehow justified (to use the word in its most non-gross sense), that does not mean that this is not a very serious problem is Israeli society. And I would guess that a decent chunk of it could be divorced from the constant threat of violence, judging by the apparent demographic breakdown that exists.

2705, at least present an argument, not just copy and paste thingies.

I see he's just going to post his so-called "proof" of Jewish "racism" without actually talking to anyone about it. Can we get this thread burned as spam?

Leftist: "Z0MG! J00Z=rAciSte! Final Solution time! Z0mGWTFBBQ!1111one!"

Real intelligent. Real tolerant.
Whereas your automatic labeling is incredibly tolorant. Why, I can see your tolorance seeping all throughout your posts, just dripping, oozing, in fact! :rolleyes:

Frankly, Israelies are racist. Do they necessarily have a reason to be? Well, that begs the question: is there ever a reason that justifies racism, or any other form of hate for that matter?

I especially love how you think it's targeting Jews as a whole rather than just Isralies. Because clearly anyone who is "leftist" (I personally do not recognize the political spectrum. There are issues, and positions on issues. That's it.) in the U.S. is a Jew-hater. It's ridiculously hypocritical.

All that said, I do think the posting of this thread was somewhat unnecessary. The poster does not make an argument. He merely copies and pastes from other sources. Not exactly a fantastic first series of posts, in my mind.

This news doesn't seem particularly irrelevant, Minokio, and it doesn't seem like spam.
What? He just posts these articles calling Jews racist and does'nt respond in any way to anyone else, and it does'nt look like spam to you? Christ...

But then again, I don't know the original poster.

Of course you don't, this is his first thread...

Whatever the case, while one could say that a good part of the Jewish Israeli fear of and/or racism against Arabs is somehow justified (to use the word in its most non-gross sense), that does not mean that this is not a very serious problem is Israeli society. And I would guess that a decent chunk of it could be divorced from the constant threat of violence, judging by the apparent demographic breakdown that exists.
Yeah, there's a demographic breakdown, but that does'nt mean most of it is from pure racism. If you lived next to a "nation" (Palestine is'nt a nation per-se) who launched rockets into your territory, suicide-bombed your citizens, and supported terrorism in your direction constantly for no legitimate reason other than pure hatred of Jews and western-based systems and thoughts, would'nt you start getting a bit miffed at the majority of that "nation"?

Most of the people who attack them are Arabs, ergo, Arabs are more hated...Simple.

Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."
This particular quote is from what I would figure is the talmud, and so yes, he is being anti-semitic, and not just anti-israel.

Most of the people who attack them are Arabs, ergo, Arabs are more hated...Simple.
Agreed here, there's a bit of anti-arab sentiment in the U.S.
Now, have every single war in your nations history against arabs, and you don't exactly have a favorable view of them.

I see he's just going to post his so-called "proof" of Jewish "racism" without actually talking to anyone about it. Can we get this thread burned as spam?

Leftist: "Z0MG! J00Z=rAciSte! Final Solution time! Z0mGWTFBBQ!1111one!"

Real intelligent. Real tolerant.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said. Look: Any religion that says that if you're not a distinct race of people, you're not God's chosen people, and therefore are going to Hell is inherently racist, even if they were victims of some insane Austrian turned dictator of Germany seventy years ago. You don't hear Gypsies saying that non-gypsies are going to Hell for not being Gypsy, do you (or Slavs, for that matter)? So, shut up.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said. Look: Any religion that says that if you're not a distinct race of people, you're not God's chosen people, and therefore are going to Hell is inherently racist, even if they were victims of some insane Austrian turned dictator of Germany seventy years ago. You don't hear Gypsies saying that non-gypsies are going to Hell for not being Gypsy, do you (or Slavs, for that matter)? So, shut up.
I see he made a sockpuppet account. Hello, little racist sockpuppet.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said. Look: Any religion that says that if you're not a distinct race of people, you're not God's chosen people, and therefore are going to Hell is inherently racist, even if they were victims of some insane Austrian turned dictator of Germany seventy years ago. You don't hear Gypsies saying that non-gypsies are going to Hell for not being Gypsy, do you (or Slavs, for that matter)? So, shut up.
Let's see here:
Hinduism, Christianity came close early, in fact pretty much any religion that says they're right.
Which is all of them.
And may I note that you can make anything sound bad taken out of context.

Fact of matter: No one likes Arabs!

In case you didn't know jews and arabs are both semites, just different branches of the same tree. Neither of them are very popular worldwide, but in almost any country in the world if you call someone a jew it's an insult. I just think it's funny how they can hate each other so much, and be so similar.

I'd bet that this guy is another sock puppet, considering it has only 1 post.

I see he made a sockpuppet account. Hello, little racist sockpuppet.
I'm a sockpuppet, eh? First of all, I don't even know who first wrote this post. I used to be on these forums as Bombolobolia, but my account expired. Secondly: Racist? Dude, Fuck You. I believe in religious tolerance as a Unitarian, but even you have to face the fact that unless you have a Jewish mother, you're going to Hell under the Jewish faith. No religion is as intolerant as the Jewish faith, and I've learned about A LOT of religions. The only two that don't accept you on ethnic grounds are Jews and Zorastrians. Seriously, if the Emporor of Japan were to say that all non-Shintos were going to spend eternity in hellfire, and that the only way to be Shinto is if your mother, your mother's mother, et cetera were Shinto, would you not consider that racist, as the only way to ensure that were if you were Japanese? The fact is, under the system of radical Judaism which Israel follows, the only way to gain entrance to heaven is if you, you, your mother, your mother's mother, et cetera were Jewish. Which is good news for my kids, but not for me. Are you going to defend a system where my wife and my kids (if they choose to follow Judaism) go to heaven, but I don't, because I was born to the wrong mother and I'm uncircumcised? Get your facts straight, chief.

Yeah, there's a demographic breakdown, but that does'nt mean most of it is from pure racism. If you lived next to a "nation" (Palestine is'nt a nation per-se) who launched rockets into your territory, suicide-bombed your citizens, and supported terrorism in your direction constantly for no legitimate reason other than pure hatred of Jews and western-based systems and thoughts, would'nt you start getting a bit miffed at the majority of that "nation"?

Most of the people who attack them are Arabs, ergo, Arabs are more hated...Simple.

Racism isn't about nations. You'll notice that the poll didn't ask political questions, It asked about social interaction on a minimal level (such as living in the same appartment block). Saying that the large number of Jews who would refuse any form of contact with Arabs is justified by the threat that some Arabs present to them is equivalent to stating that racism against blacks in, say, the United States is justifiable by the fact that a disproportionately large group of blacks have criminal records. This is the reason and the explanation for this kind of attitude, it's in no way a justification.
Racism is negative generalisation of the worst kind, and immensely destructive to any society.

Fact of matter: No one likes Arabs!

Really? Some of my closest friends are of Arab origin...
Matter of fact : Not everybody dismisses people because of their origin.

I'm a sockpuppet, eh? First of all, I don't even know who first wrote this post. I used to be on these forums as Bombolobolia, but my account expired. Secondly: Racist? Dude, Fuck You. I believe in religious tolerance as a Unitarian, but even you have to face the fact that unless you have a Jewish mother, you're going to Hell under the Jewish faith. No religion is as intolerant as the Jewish faith, and I've learned about A LOT of religions. The only two that don't accept you on ethnic grounds are Jews and Zorastrians. Seriously, if the Emporor of Japan were to say that all non-Shintos were going to spend eternity in hellfire, and that the only way to be Shinto is if your mother, your mother's mother, et cetera were Shinto, would you not consider that racist, as the only way to ensure that were if you were Japanese? The fact is, under the system of radical Judaism which Israel follows, the only way to gain entrance to heaven is if you, you, your mother, your mother's mother, et cetera were Jewish. Which is good news for my kids, but not for me. Are you going to defend a system where my wife and my kids (if they choose to follow Judaism) go to heaven, but I don't, because I was born to the wrong mother and I'm uncircumcised? Get your facts straight, chief.
You do not know anything about Judaism, as evidenced by your post, and thus I can dismiss you.

EDIT:Before you ask for proof:
Firstly, you have totally ignored conversion.
Second, Judaism does have a system where non-Jews get into heaven. Actually, it's EASIER for you guys to get in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws

A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide Law in all its details is said to attain the same spiritual and moral level as Israel's own Kohen Gadol (high priest) (Talmud, Bava Kamma 38a). Maimonides states in his work Mishneh Torah (The laws of kings and their rulership 8:11) that a Ger Toshav who is precise in the observance of these Seven Noahide commandments is considered to be a Righteous Gentile and has earned the afterlife. This follows a similar statement in the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin 105b). However, according to Maimonides, a gentile is considered righteous only if a person follows the Noahide laws specifically because he or she considers them to be of divine origin (through the Torah) and not if they are merely considered to be intellectually compelling or good rules for living.


Ironically, the only religion that follows these innately is Islam.

Really? Some of my closest friends are of Arab origin...
Matter of fact : Not everybody dismisses people because of their origin.

It's more of a general thing. The same way that nobody likes Russians.

Go forth and be fruitful, 2705.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabra West
Really? Some of my closest friends are of Arab origin...
Matter of fact : Not everybody dismisses people because of their origin.


It's more of a general thing. The same way that nobody likes Russians.

uh-HUH! :fluffle:

I see he made a sockpuppet account. Hello, little racist sockpuppet.
Considering your 59 posts, you are hardly an experianced judge now are you?

You do not know anything about Judaism, as evidenced by your post, and thus I can dismiss you.

EDIT:Before you ask for proof:
Firstly, you have totally ignored conversion.
Second, Judaism does have a system where non-Jews get into heaven. Actually, it's EASIER for you guys to get in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws



Ironically, the only religion that follows these innately is Islam.

If you would read on, you'd see this (which I've experienced as my wife has been disowned for marrying a gentile), Judaism does not usually support Conversion to Judaism but does, on the other hand, believe that Jewish people have some duty to help establish the Noahide Laws
Converting is an extreme prcocess, compared to other religions (Christrianity, Islam and Buddhism all require pledges of devotion, and that's all, compared to circumcision [not a healthy process at 24] and tests of the various Jewish texts, plus knowlege of Hebrew), I know because I looked into it before marriage. My wife left the Jewish faith and joined the Unitarian faith which I've been part of since birth. We were married in the Unitarian Society in San Francisco. I know what goes into conversion, and you're still considered an outsider and a "Jew by choice".

It's more of a general thing. The same way that nobody likes Russians.
They don't?

Well, hell, and here I thought Vlad was a kewl guy.

They don't?

Well, hell, and here I thought Vlad was a kewl guy.


Vlad the Impaler?
*thinks hard*
Awright - ship him in as the new Governor of Iraq or summat.

Vlad the Impaler?
*thinks hard*
Awright - ship him in as the new Governor of Iraq or summat.
'Fraid not, though he DID help me impale computer boxes when we both worked for the computer lab at my university. :D

They don't?

Well, hell, and here I thought Vlad was a kewl guy.

But... he was Rumanian....

It's more of a general thing. The same way that nobody likes Russians.

I like Russians. They have those cool fur hats.


Whats with the generalisations?

But... he was Rumanian....
Wrong Vlad. My friend Vladimr was a Russian international student at the university I went to. He was a good friend, a hard worker, a very intelligent guy, and loved to joke around.

Wrong Vlad. My friend Vladimr was a Russian international student at the university I went to. He was a good friend, a hard worker, a very intelligent guy, and loved to joke around.


But..but... but... er... did he have any sort of skill in imposing misery?
Even a flair for defloration would do...

But..but... but... er... did he have any sort of skill in imposing misery?
Even a flair for defloration would do...
Um... well... we all had to be hard asses about requiring valid student ID to get into the computer labs which did cause extrem pain for those students who waited till the last minute to type their term papers and lost their ID about a year before hand.

Does that count?

Um... well... we all had to be hard asses about requiring valid student ID to get into the computer labs which did cause extrem pain for those students who waited till the last minute to type their term papers and lost their ID about a year before hand.

Does that count?


Could he really bawl 'em out if the ID was wrong?
Make 'em wince and run for mommie?

Could he really bawl 'em out if the ID was wrong?
Make 'em wince and run for mommie?
Er... he could keep them from coming into the lab and send them grumbling back to their dorm room to get the damn ID.

Er... he could keep them from coming into the lab and send them grumbling back to their dorm room to get the damn ID.

Your Vlad is a really nice guy.
I'm afraid there are no open slots in the Occupation Authority for someone with his profile.
We're taking the liberty of forwarding his resume to the Red Cross and Sally Army.

Yours truelly,

Eve B. I. L. Biatch - VP for Human Resources.

Whats with the generalisations?

They're easy. Fun too.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), equated Zionism with racism.

In accordance to studies of British and American psychologists, Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, was a psychopath. His children committed suicide.

Of couse you ignore the countries where the government will KILL you if you are a Jew or Christian.

Of couse you ignore the countries where the government will KILL you if you are a Jew or Christian.Which ones would those be?

Which ones would those be?

Met anyone who has tried to bring a Bible into Saudi Land?

Which ones would those be?
Nastyantijewishstan and Horribledon'tlikechristiansville

Met anyone who has tried to bring a Bible into Saudi Land?

That's "kill you if you try to convert", not "kill you if you are Christian or Jew". Small but significant difference.

Met anyone who has tried to bring a Bible into Saudi Land?Nah. I lack distinct personal experience on this issue.

Nah. I lack distinct personal experience on this issue.


Yep. That applies to EVERYONE, somehow...

I think there are a few more places that would give Israel a definite run for its money. Japan maybe, some of the Arab countries definitely, Russia probably...

I think there are a few more places that would give Israel a definite run for its money. Japan maybe, some of the Arab countries definitely, Russia probably...

Give it some time... these places had centuries to develop xenophobia. Israel just started a few decades ago. But I admit they seem to have a running start

Sadly, a majority of white Australians probably wouldn't want to live next to an arab, vietnamese or aboriginal either. At least in my area, anyway. There was a big uproar over proposed mosque in the area not long ago, and popular opinion forced the government to revoke the building permit.

So yeah; a significant portion of Australian society could probably give Israel a run for its money.

Oh, I get it, this is a "Leftists bash the j00z!" thread...Typical.

Nazis are right-wing, sweetie.

Oh diddums. Given what Israel has gone through at the hands of Arabs, and vice versa, why should they have affinity to each other, even if the sole division is race?

Nazis are right-wing, sweetie.
Thank you for proving my point.

Most internet-Leftists are so Left that they're Right....It's about time people saw the Lefts' true colors.

Oh, and Kapsilan? You call me a douchebag by telegram just for assuming you were a sockpuppet? After you post something stupid in response to me going at that other guy who started this fucking thread? And it was your accounts' first post?

Dude. Fuck. You.

Oh, and that "as far as i'm concerned, you're my enemy" thing?

Oh noes, 1 are zo sCaRedzo0rz!111oneeleven!!!!1111!

Thank you for proving my point.

Most internet-Leftists are so Left that they're Right....It's about time people saw the Lefts' true colors.


Er... you are saying, most left-oriented people are so concerned about equality, workers' rights, social problems, protecting the environment, world peace and human rights that they are in fact concerned with big business, religion, nationalism, rascism, sexism and profit through war?


Am I the only one to whom this statement makes no sense whatsoever?

Never have i seen more stupidity in one thread...

Am I the only one to whom this statement makes no sense whatsoever?

No.

Never have i seen more stupidity in one thread...

*lol
You haven't read many threads here, then ;)

*lol
You haven't read many threads here, then ;)

Oh i assure, Im ready for any sort of spam ;) Theres threads which are stupid because they are spam (which is ok) and there are threads which are so stupid but not stupid enough to be a spam thread so it's technically still a debate, a stupid one... errr yeah.

Oh i assure, Im ready for any sort of spam ;) Theres threads which are stupid because they are spam (which is ok) and there are threads which are so stupid but not stupid enough to be a spam thread so it's technically still a debate, a stupid one... errr yeah.

If you're looking for more of the same for a little private masochistic session check out some of the threads opened by Greater Allemannia/Kievan-Prussia and The UN Abassadorship ;)


Don't say I didn't warn you, though.

Vlad the Impaler?
*thinks hard*
Awright - ship him in as the new Governor of Iraq or summat.
Wouldn't be a bad idea actually. There are no towns of german descent to terrorize, so he can concentrate on his specialty of torturing and driving off those who would attack it. Although he'd probably force a conversion to christianity.

2705, at least present an argument, not just copy and paste thingies.

Indeed, posting links and articles with no analysis is a violation of the forum rules. This thread should be locked.

It's more of a general thing. The same way that nobody likes Russians.

You mean Russian men. EVERYBODY loves Russian women- as long as they play tennis.

this is upsetting to read, it is comparable to those who criticise michael owen, when he has done no wrong.

Both sides are indifferent towards each other. That's all. You cannot point a finger at one group (Israelis) and not at the other group (Palestinians) and visa-versa. As long as they both (Israelis and Palestinians) continue to support those petty revenge cycles (shown in the media from time to time) then there will never be stability, friendship, economic growth, and etc.

This particular quote is from what I would figure is the talmud, and so yes, he is being anti-semitic, and not just anti-israel.

Talmud? Is that the jewish book?
So he quotes from Talmud, how is that anti-semitic?

What? He just posts these articles calling Jews racist and does'nt respond in any way to anyone else, and it does'nt look like spam to you? Christ...

Of course you don't, this is his first thread...

Yeah, there's a demographic breakdown, but that does'nt mean most of it is from pure racism. If you lived next to a "nation" (Palestine is'nt a nation per-se) who launched rockets into your territory, suicide-bombed your citizens, and supported terrorism in your direction constantly for no legitimate reason other than pure hatred of Jews and western-based systems and thoughts, would'nt you start getting a bit miffed at the majority of that "nation"?

Most of the people who attack them are Arabs, ergo, Arabs are more hated...Simple.

Considering most crimes are commited by immigrants in Europe, does Europeans have the right to be as racist as Israelis? Or the Holocaust gives Jews bonus points that they can spend on "racism without condemnation"?

Someone probably said this already - but wouldn't the most racist country be somwhere like "palestine" or maybe syria? I mean if you were a jew and wandered around a random street things might go badly.

Still I guess there might be a random country in africa where being a certain type of african would get you killed pretty quick.

Not that israel is not racist of course.

It appears the OP was done by a hit and run merchant.

Its a shame Tropical Sands isn't a real person (as oppossed to a "puppet"). You could imagine the 'hissy fit' he'd have responding to this...trying to type while breathing into a bag.....

The question hinges on whether you mean the populace or the governmental policies.

Indeed, posting links and articles with no analysis is a violation of the forum rules. This thread should be locked.
This thread deserves to be locked for sheer concentrated stupidity. The rule breaking only helps.

Considering most crimes are commited by immigrants in Europe, does Europeans have the right to be as racist as Israelis? Or the Holocaust gives Jews bonus points that they can spend on "racism without condemnation"?
Sorry, I did'nt realize that immigrants in Europe were blowing themselves up in European latte' houses...Its' a pandemic of awful, immigration-related violence, it is.

Oh, wait, it is'nt...Try getting your arm blown off in a pizzeria someday and you'll see how you feel in their shoes...
Er... you are saying, most left-oriented people are so concerned about equality, workers' rights, social problems, protecting the environment, world peace and human rights that they are in fact concerned with big business, religion, nationalism, rascism, sexism and profit through war?
Yes. They support extreme socialism in all its' forms...Look, i'm all for moderate welfare and sensible regulations, and I personally hate racism as much as you guys, but what Ultra-Leftists seek is an oppressive totalitarian state which chokes both the economy and the peoples' freedoms. They're just like Fascists with a Red paint-job...They look good, but underneath, they're just as wrong.

They also support a bunch of backwards arab islamofascist terrorists over a progressive democratic (and Jewish) state in the middle-east, which leads me to suspect they have something against Jews...
Someone probably said this already - but wouldn't the most racist country be somwhere like "palestine" or maybe syria? I mean if you were a jew and wandered around a random street things might go badly.
Exactly. It's mostly Arab racism against Jews over there, not the other way around. Why do you think they support terror-organizations that promise to "push the Jews into the sea?".

Its a shame Tropical Sands isn't a real person (as oppossed to a "puppet"). You could imagine the 'hissy fit' he'd have responding to this...trying to type while breathing into a bag.....

I wonder why the far left crowd on NS has suddenly resorted to accusing everyone of being a puppet that they conflict with. Its a silly tactic.

Especially considering that I have more posts than Nodinia. I must be a really active puppet!

They also support a bunch of backwards arab islamofascist terrorists over a progressive democratic (and Jewish) state in the middle-east, which leads me to suspect they have something against Jews...

Exactly. It's mostly Arab racism against Jews over there, not the other way around. .

But the thing is that its Israel thats occupying them...thats neither progressive or democratic.....and the racism/sectarianism of Israel doesnt justify the racism of the Arab states anymore than their sectarianism/racism justifies Israels

I'm not leftist, but I'm guessing that they don't support Israel because of the idea of a state that was forcibly created.

Especially considering that I have more posts than Nodinia. I must be a really active puppet!

Yep, you do flap about, don't you....

I wonder why the far left crowd on NS has suddenly resorted to accusing everyone of being a puppet that they conflict with. Its a silly tactic.

The "far left crowd on NS" is not and has never been a monolith that can be generalized about liberally.

But the thing is that its Israel thats occupying them...thats neither progressive or democratic.....and the racism/sectarianism of Israel doesnt justify the racism of the Arab states anymore than their sectarianism/racism justifies Israels
That's fucking bullshit, they're defending themselves, not occupying them.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that once those jackballs stop blowing themselves up at bus-stops, Israel will sign a cease-fire with them, offer them a two-state deal (just like they did before.) and pull the fuck out. The Israelis don't want War, otherwise they would'nt have offered the deals before, which were rejected by the terrorist leadership of the Palestineans.
I'm not leftist, but I'm guessing that they don't support Israel because of the idea of a state that was forcibly created.
Every state has been "forcibly created"...Israel is no different.

The "far left crowd on NS" is not and has never been a monolith that can be generalized about liberally.
Heh heh, good one.

That's fucking bullshit, they're defending themselves, not occupying them..

They're a first world power outside their borders building colonies. Thats occupation.


I guaran-fucking-tee you that once those jackballs stop blowing themselves up at bus-stops, Israel will sign a cease-fire with them, offer them a two-state deal (just like they did before.) and pull the fuck out. ..

The occupation began in 1967. The first suicide bomber didn't occur until the early 1980's, as far as I recall.


The Israelis don't want War, otherwise they would'nt have offered the deals before, which were rejected by the terrorist leadership of the Palestineans.
.

The idea that Israel is "offering a deal" makes the error of presuming that Israel has some right to offer anything. By rights it should have been forced by sanctions to withdraw years ago. As it is we are stuck with a situation brought about by US use (or abuse) of the veto.

Just a quick overview of the most racist country in the world:

The Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2002 that racial discrimination in any form was illegal. In this decision Aharon Barak (the Chief Justice) stated, "The Jewish character of the state does not permit Israel to discriminate between its citizens."

Before this, there were no laws permitting racial discrimination on the books either. Israel has never had a racist state policy, nor a single racist law. To the contrary, as we see from Barak's ruling, Israel has prohibitions against discrimination.

To be fair, there is racism in Israel. Although, probably not any more than in any other country. The far right settlers can be rather racist. Then again, so can the middle class white people of the United Kingdom and the United States. Its unfair to single out Israel, as Israel doesn't have a history of racism any worse (actually far better) than European states that colonized Africa, supported slavery, etc.

Now, in contrast to Arab countries, Israel is as pure as the driven snow. Israel's neighbor, Jordan, has a law on the books that prohibits Jews from becoming citizens. This is state-sponsored, institutionalized racism. Saudi Arabia is very similiar - it explictly has racist laws based on Shariah that state there can only be one religion in Arabia. Thus, Jews aren't a free people in Saudi Arabia.

When evaluated objectively, we can find many countries around the world that are far more racist than Israel. Including many liberal European countries.

When evaluated objectively, we can find many countries around the world that are far more racist than Israel. Including many liberal European countries.

Did you read the article that started this thread?

To elaborate on the OP from Haaretz, which recorded the racist sentiment of Jews, we can find surveys that record perceived racism in other countries as well:

BBC: Is Britain a racist country? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/uk/2002/race/1998159.stm)

More than half of Britons believe they live in a racist society, according to a major survey commissioned by BBC News Online.

The opinion poll also found that 44% of those asked believe immigration has damaged Britain over the last 50 years.

OMG, 44% of Brits believe immigration has damaged Britain! And half of the Brits believe that the country is racist! Shall we cry racism here too, or just over Israeli racists?

Did you read the article that started this thread?

Sure, I read the Haaretz every day. It isn't that shocking.

It doesn't change what I wrote, either. We can still find many more countries that are far more racist than Israel. We can start with half of the Arab nations out there that have laws discriminating against race to start with. Every country with state-sponsored, institutionalized racism is already higher on the list of being a "racist country" than those that don't.

They're a first world power outside their borders building colonies. Thats occupation.
Palestine does'nt have borders, as its' not a nation.

The occupation began in 1967. The first suicide bomber didn't occur until the early 1980's, as far as I recall.
Yes, but they were attacked in 1967...Self-defense. It's not "occupation" to take strategic territory from a hostile nation.

OMG, 44% of Brits believe immigration has damaged Britain! And half of the Brits believe that the country is racist! Shall we cry racism here too, or just over Israeli racists?

I think that's indicative of racism too, actually.

An Israeli Jewish woman named Susan Nathan wrote a book called The Other Side of Israel that you might find interesting.

I think that's indicative of racism too, actually.

An Israeli Jewish woman named Susan Nathan wrote a book called The Other Side of Israel that you might find interesting.

Well, like I wrote, I'll be the first to admit there is racism in Israel. I've seen it and experienced it. It occurs on both sides, Jew to Arab and Arab to Jew.

I just think its grossly inaccurate to single Israel out. Israel doesn't have state-sponsored racism like virtually all of its Arab neighbors. And it doesn't have a history of racism like European countries, involved in colonizing the world and slavery, Arab nations involved in the slave trade, or the United States, again, involved in the slave trade. Historically and in modern times, I think we can find quite a few more countries that are more racist than Israel. And I don't think Israel has any outstanding record of racism that puts it above the rest of the Western world.

Palestine does'nt have borders, as its' not a nation..

If you'd care to reread what I said and try again.....


Yes, but they were attacked in 1967...Self-defense. It's not "occupation" to take strategic territory from a hostile nation.

But it is to hang on to it and have your own population move in. And didn't you just say above that "Palestine" wasn't a nation? Certainly there was no Palestinian state involved in the 1967 attacks.

Sorry, I did'nt realize that immigrants in Europe were blowing themselves up in European latte' houses...Its' a pandemic of awful, immigration-related violence, it is.



Sure, they dont murder so flambouyantly (by blowing up themselves). But they still murder by knives, guns, etc...Same result...They also rape, steal, etc etc...Immigrants in most, maybe all european countries got crime rates dispropotional to their population rate (overrepresentated). For ex: Immigrants were responsible for 65% of rapes in Oslo in 2001, although they account for 14.3% of the city population.

there is no doubt that some jews hold racits veiws on arabs and label the whole demographic as terrorists, a denial of this leads to racits veiws speading.The whole labeling racism is a 'leftist' conspiracy is offensive to right wingers(i would say because it implies right wingers are racist which im sure is not true of many)
However it is also the case that there are many anti semite arabs, but as is the case in all countries there are racist and anti sematic pigs who will think that those'different' from them are evil or something of the like,mainly because they havent taken the time to understand others cultures.
what makes me just as mad tho is that on this site anyone making criticisms of israel is branded as an anti-semite,just because a person doesnt like the policies of the israeli state doesnt meantheyre anti semitic!
I also would say that making sweeping statements saying the people of one state are more racist than another is a dangerous generalisation.There are racists everywhere, its just not as well publicised in some countries.

But it is to hang on to it and have your own population move in.
No it is'nt....If Germany attacked France again, and the French managed to push them back, France would have every right to build "colonies" in their captured German territory if they wanted to. Nothing unfair about it.

And didn't you just say above that "Palestine" wasn't a nation? Certainly there was no Palestinian state involved in the 1967 attacks.
There has never been a Palestinean state ever. The Israelis have every right to the land they are "occupying" at this point.

Notice that although the Israelis are under no legal obligation to respect the creation of a Palestinean state, that they offered it to them twice?

Yeah, man, that's like, so an occupation man...The fascists...::Goth lopsided-hair-whip::

Sure, they dont murder so flambouyantly (by blowing up themselves). But they still murder by knives, guns, etc...Same result...They also rape, steal, etc etc...Immigrants in most, maybe all european countries got crime rates dispropotional to their population rate (overrepresentated). For ex: Immigrants were responsible for 65% of rapes in Oslo in 2001, although they account for 14.3% of the city population.
And Arabs in Israel are responsible for 99.99% of suicide bombings and other terror attacks....That's a much higher percentage, and of a much more devastating (to the phyche of an entire peoples') crime than the relatively common crimes of the European immigrants.

Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."

I actually wasn't going to respond to this thread at all, but I got suckered in. If there is any one thing I'd like to correct on here, it is the above quote from the OP.

This isn't a Talmudic tractate. Its a complete fabrication that occurs nowhere in the Talmud. It would have to be Baba Necia 114a or Baba Necia 114b. Although, it occurs nowhere.

This was actually fabricated by one Justinas Pranaitis (aka I.B. Pranaitis). He was a violent Russian anti-Semite in the 1890s. By violent, I mean that he was physically violent toward Jews and had a criminal record. At the beginning of his career, he proposed that he was an expert on Jewish ritual, and that Jews routinely drank the blood of children, etc.

Pranaitis was once called in to testify in a court case as an expert on Judaic ritual, where he claimed it had all of the hallmarks of Jewish ritual murder. You can read about it on Wikipedia here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Mendel_Beilis)

The Jewish man accused of ritual murder was found innocent, and Pranitis was discredited in court.

The Talmud fabrication above came from a book he would write called "The Talmud Unmasked: The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Regarding Christians." Pranaitis couldn't actually read Hebrew, so he used Christian polemic against Jews from the Middle Ages regarding the Talmud to compose a portion of it, and fabricated virtually all of the other Talmud quotes. That is why he makes such mistakes as referring to Talmud tractes as things like "114, 6" when there is no such thing. He thought it worked like Biblical verses.

The fact that the opening poster would rely on a Talmud fabrication by a historical anti-Semite says something about the anti-Israel agenda. This is similiar to how the PLO and Hezbollah previously used the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a proof-text for why Jews were evil.

No it is'nt....If Germany attacked France again, and the French managed to push them back, France would have every right to build "colonies" in their captured German territory if they wanted to. Nothing unfair about it.

There has never been a Palestinean state ever. The Israelis have every right to the land they are "occupying" at this point.

Notice that although the Israelis are under no legal obligation to respect the creation of a Palestinean state, that they offered it to them twice?

Yeah, man, that's like, so an occupation man...The fascists...::Goth lopsided-hair-whip::


And Arabs in Israel are responsible for 99.99% of suicide bombings and other terror attacks....That's a much higher percentage, and of a much more devastating (to the phyche of an entire peoples') crime than the relatively common crimes of the European immigrants.

99.9% of murders in Israel are commited by Arabs as well? If you compare the percentage of immigrants responsible for unnatural violent deaths, I'm sure immigrants in Europe would score higher. And there's also terrible other crimes like rapes which you called "common" crimes...
Face it. It's hypocracy. Jews can be racist because "terrorism" is so bad and they are the "victims".

Actually, now that he mentioned it, the talmud does go by pages(a and b denote the side, they aren't considered seperate pages), and not by the notation used in the bible.
BTW, I was waiting for TS to come in. Figured he could tear a whole in this guy's logic faster then..
Well, definitally faster then I can think of an analogy.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), equated Zionism with racism.

I guess I should respond to this too. After about 13 years, the UN revoked Resolution 3379 and stated that Zionism isn't actually racism. This was Resolution 4686:

"...to equate Zionism with the intolerable sin of racism is to twist history and forget the terrible plight of Jews in World War II and indeed throughout history."

Wikipedia (UN General Assembly Resolution 4686) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_4686)

But I guess the OP ignored that too, in his vain quest to demonize Israel, and in conjunction with made-up Talmud quotes.

If you compare the percentage of immigrants responsible for unnatural violent deaths, I'm sure immigrants in Europe would score higher.
Your whole argument is based on this unproven guess and thus holds no weight.

Your whole argument is based on this unproven guess and thus holds no weight.

Read previous posts. You got Arabs overrepresented in suicide bombs, we got immigrants overrepresented in all crimes....

Read previous posts. You got Arabs overrepresented in suicide bombs, we got immigrants overrepresented in all crimes....
Yes, but the crimes commited by the European immigrants are'nt designed to destroy the nation they're in over time. They're common crimes of passion, greed, and common assholery. They're not trying to destroy Europe and commit genocide....These terrorist acts are designed to destroy the fabric of society over time, and to open Israel up for utter barbarity and genocide.

Big difference.

Good point there.
The terrorists in Isreal have some kind of weird internal war going on there.
The immigrants in Europe commit crimes for the same reasons the rest of Europe commits crimes.

Yes, but the crimes commited by the European immigrants are'nt designed to destroy the nation they're in over time. They're common crimes of passion, greed, and common assholery. They're not trying to destroy Europe and commit genocide....These terrorist acts are designed to destroy the fabric of society over time, and to open Israel up for utter barbarity and genocide.

Big difference.

Then you havent heard of radical muslims thinking of forming islamic states in Europe, or a German MP of Turkish descent saying "turks will do what ottomans couldnt do in Vienna, by demographic trends"
There are many radical muslims who hate Europe and want to destroy it (London Bombings) Similarly you got radical arabs who want to destroy Israel.
It's not different. It's just hypocracy.

...a German MP of Turkish descent saying "turks will do what ottomans couldnt do in Vienna, by demographic trends"...
Find the link and post it.

I oppose human segregation... period. We should only be segregating our laundry.

Find the link and post it.

Dont have time for a long research. But this might be enough...


Im Jahr 2100 wird es in Deutschland 35 Millionen Türken geben
Vural Öger legt nach
Nach seinen Äußerungen über deutsche Frauen sorgt der türkischstämmige Hamburger SPD-Europakandidat erneut für Wirbel

„Im Jahr 2100 wird es in Deutschland 35 Millionen Türken geben", zitierte die „Bild“-Zeitung am Mittwoch den Politiker unter Berufung auf die türkische Zeitung „Hürriyet“ „Die Einwohnerzahl der Deutschen wird dann bei ungefähr 20 Millionen liegen“

„Das, was Kamuni Sultan Süleyman 1529 mit der Belagerung Wiens begonnen hat, werden wir über die Einwohner, mit unseren kräftigen Männern und gesunden Frauen, verwirklichen“, so der türkische Touristik-Unternehmer

26052004

urlhttp://aktuellfocusmsnde/hps/fol/newsausgabe/newsausgabehtm?id=2849/url

Peinlich für Herrn Öger, dass er sich noch nicht einmal mit der Geschichte seines Landes auskennt: B1683 wurde Wien in der Tat belagert Aber nicht von Süleymann II sondern von seinem Bruder Mehmed IV, der mit gerade 22 Jahren nach der erfolglosen Belagerung auch noch hingerichtet wurde und damit seinen Harem relativ früh verlor Er scheidet in dieser Hinsicht als Vorbild leider aus /B


Peter Scholl-Latour, bei einem Vortrag im Literaturhaus in München, unter großem Beifall

http://www.politikforum.de/forum/archive/6/2004/06/2/64023

Edit: It says he's a candidate for EP here. But I remember reading he was also a German MP, in the news article I read long time ago....

I'm usually pro-Israeli, but I am just shocked at this.

However, I would not name Israel as the most racist country in the world. Israelis may be racist, but other countries are worse.

From what I have seen, most cultures are inherently racist. In fact, I'd say that only a handful of Western countries, who had bad experiences with racism in the past, are not very racist. Or, at least, they have made the greatest strides in stopping racism. The United States is a good example. From what I have seen, the Canadians and Latin Americans aren't very racist either.

In short, the Americas are less racist than the rest of the world.

As for Judaism being inherently racist, as was stated earlier, you do NOT have to be a Jew to go to Heaven. You just need to accept the Noachide laws. And the conversion process is meant to ensure that you REALLY mean it.
There are also laws against discriminating against converts. The sole law that restricts converts is that a convert may not marry a Cohen.

...does not exist because there is only one race.

...does not exist because there is only one race.
That doesn't preclude it from being racist though, does it?

...does not exist because there is only one race.

humans are species, not a race :rolleyes:

Whoop di do.

People are racist; doesn't matter whether they be Israeli, Australian, Chinese or British.

Why is the news to anyone?

Hey, Israel now occupies South Africa's former position. ^^ lol Ironic.

Then you havent heard of radical muslims thinking of forming islamic states in Europe, or a German MP of Turkish descent saying "turks will do what ottomans couldnt do in Vienna, by demographic trends"
There are many radical muslims who hate Europe and want to destroy it (London Bombings) Similarly you got radical arabs who want to destroy Israel.
It's not different. It's just hypocracy.
I am fully aware that there are subversive islamofascist elements within Europe. The difference is, you are'nt threatened with suicide bombings on a daily basis...Sure, they get their cuts in every once-in-a-while, but Israel is being attacked virtually nonstop.

Dont have time for a long research. But this might be enough...
Interesting. Not that anyone is still listening to him, not after his comments about German women not having enough children...:rolleyes:

But if you look at his website (http://www.vural-oeger.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=146&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0), it hardly seems like he hates Europe. And his comment about Vienna doesn't seem to be anything other than a colourful discription of events - not a plan or a statement of intent.

I am fully aware that there are subversive islamofascist elements within Europe. The difference is, you are'nt threatened with suicide bombings on a daily basis...Sure, they get their cuts in every once-in-a-while, but Israel is being attacked virtually nonstop.

When was the last suicide bombing inside Israel proper?

When was the last suicide bombing inside Israel proper?

About a month or two ago.

Tel Aviv bombing kills nine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915868.stm)

About a month or two ago.

Tel Aviv bombing kills nine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915868.stm)

Ah thank you :)

When was the last suicide bombing inside Israel proper?
You're forgetting all the rocket-attacks, and the derailing of peace plans by blowing up their own people on a beach.

I guess you don't consider it to be terrorism if somebody is'nt killing themselves to do it. :rolleyes:

You're forgetting all the rocket-attacks, and the derailing of peace plans by blowing up their own people on a beach.

I guess you don't consider it to be terrorism if somebody is'nt killing themselves to do it. :rolleyes:

Well, you said suicide bombing, so I asked about suicide bombing.

And I was merely asking a question. :rolleyes:

You're forgetting all the rocket-attacks, and the derailing of peace plans by blowing up their own people on a beach.

I guess you don't consider it to be terrorism if somebody is'nt killing themselves to do it. :rolleyes:

I was about to bring something similiar up. Suicide bombings don't make up the majority of terrorist attacks, a lot of terrorist attacks come in the form of random violence, like Palestinian gunmen. And qassams get shot into Israel like every other day. The IDF also said they stop about 80% of attempted terrorist attacks as well, so the number of actual suicide bombings is going to be lower than the number of attempts. The real question would be to find out when the last attempted suicide bombing was, rather than when the last one carried out was.

Well, you said suicide bombing, so I asked about suicide bombing.

And I was merely asking a question. :rolleyes:
Sorry, guess i'm on a hair-trigger with all the Lefties roaming this board. Sorry for the friendly-fire :) ;)

Not close. The most racist countries don't bother with having neighbors they just kill each other like the Hutu and the Tutsi.

Sadly, a majority of white Australians probably wouldn't want to live next to an arab, vietnamese or aboriginal either. At least in my area, anyway. There was a big uproar over proposed mosque in the area not long ago, and popular opinion forced the government to revoke the building permit.

Where do you live? A lot of kids in my school were pissed when it appeared that they were building a mosque nearby. Turned out to be an Orthodox Church (Macedonian, I think).

And I don't mind Vietnamese or Aborigines on the whole, but we had a bad experience with Vietnamese neighbours. Turns out they had something to do with drugs. Police with dogs came to our house and asked if they could go over the fence in our back yard. Yeah, we let them >_>

It's more of a general thing. The same way that nobody likes Russians.

Wrong again lackwit.

North Korea.

That's the most racist country in the world.

The area covered by what used to be Yugoslavia. Been there, seen it, buried the bodies.

North Korea.

That's the most racist country in the world.

Not really. It's in ruins.

Then you havent heard of radical muslims thinking of forming islamic states in Europe, or a German MP of Turkish descent saying "turks will do what ottomans couldnt do in Vienna, by demographic trends"
There are many radical muslims who hate Europe and want to destroy it (London Bombings) Similarly you got radical arabs who want to destroy Israel.
It's not different. It's just hypocracy.

Your sorta right, theres just one thing missing.

While there may be (and they are) Muslims who wish to overun Europe into a middle eastern soceity, they dont make up most of the number of crimes commited by Muslims. Those crimes are usually just some arab punk who doesnt respect White women because shes not wearing a rag on her head or something...BUT, so while this guy is an asshole, he isnt part of some grand scheme to overun Europe.

On the other hand, every arab attack in Israel, whether it be suicide bombings, rocket fire, or just double parking...is coordinated, for the most part, to play part in some larger effect in an all out war on Israel to open up the gates of Israel and let the Muslim neighbors in to pillage it and slaughter the Jews.

So, while both are serious and both do concern Muslim attacks on Western countries, they are different scenarios.

...Just what I have to say on the subject...

(Sorry if I have alot of typos in this, I just flew in from Europe and my head is fucked up from lack of sleep and time change)

I am fully aware that there are subversive islamofascist elements within Europe. The difference is, you are'nt threatened with suicide bombings on a daily basis...Sure, they get their cuts in every once-in-a-while, but Israel is being attacked virtually nonstop.

As we speak, there is some crime going on somewhere in Europe, committed by an immigrant. The result is still the same, death, whether by suicide bombing or by "simple" crime...

Interesting. Not that anyone is still listening to him, not after his comments about German women not having enough children...:rolleyes:

But if you look at his website (http://www.vural-oeger.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=146&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0), it hardly seems like he hates Europe. And his comment about Vienna doesn't seem to be anything other than a colourful discription of events - not a plan or a statement of intent.

Since he's a politician, were you expecting to put his "plan" or beliefs on his website???
And yes, German women arent having enough babies. I :rolleyes: to your :rolleyes: Politicians need to discuss this so they can imrove things like working conditions for women with children, maternaty leave,... things like that. Germany is a 3rd world country when it comes to supporting family. Nobody in France forces women to have kids but they encourage (to a degree) it and their birthrate is A LOT higher than yours...

To be fair, the point is essentially valid. Immigrants do contribute disporportionately to the crime rate in the nations they foist themselves upon them.

About a month or two ago.

Tel Aviv bombing kills nine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915868.stm)

I guess I dont need to prove it. There should have been more than 9 deaths as a result of crimes commited by immigrants in Europe within a month. And does that give the right to Europeans to think like Israelis?
Imagine, what would happen if some 60% of Europeans said they dont want immigrants in their appartment. EU would start "year against racism", FIFA would produce balls saying "no to racism", All jew organisations would rally, not forgetting to mention holocaust a billion times in the process. The PC goverments would supress the data of crime vs immigrants (Like they are doing in Scandinavia in 5 years). Etc etc etc....
And this happens in Israel and what they say? "Arabs are terrorists" Hypocrisy is sickening...

To be fair, the point is essentially valid. Immigrants do contribute disporportionately to the crime rate in the nations they foist themselves upon them.

"disporportionately" sounds too mild...


Oslo rape statistics shock
Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown.

Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year.

Nine out of ten cases do not make it to prosecution, most of them because police do not believe the evidence is sufficient to reach a conviction.

Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo's Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising - the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments.

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

Larsen said that since this was the initial study examining ethnic make-up there were no existing figures to put the numbers into context.

"Meanwhile, it is our general experience that this is an increasing tendency. We note this by the number of time we need to use interpreters in the course of an investigation," Larsen said.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

Oh btw, rape crimes are going even higher. But we arent getting statistics of rape vs immigrants since 2001. A typical case of Political Correctness goes Censorist...

Your sorta right, theres just one thing missing.

While there may be (and they are) Muslims who wish to overun Europe into a middle eastern soceity, they dont make up most of the number of crimes commited by Muslims. Those crimes are usually just some arab punk who doesnt respect White women because shes not wearing a rag on her head or something...BUT, so while this guy is an asshole, he isnt part of some grand scheme to overun Europe.

On the other hand, every arab attack in Israel, whether it be suicide bombings, rocket fire, or just double parking...is coordinated, for the most part, to play part in some larger effect in an all out war on Israel to open up the gates of Israel and let the Muslim neighbors in to pillage it and slaughter the Jews.

So, while both are serious and both do concern Muslim attacks on Western countries, they are different scenarios.

...Just what I have to say on the subject...

(Sorry if I have alot of typos in this, I just flew in from Europe and my head is fucked up from lack of sleep and time change)

Welcome back to NS....I'll ask the personal questions later :D
My point isnt that jews got no right to be suspicious of arabs. My point is to highlight the hypocrisy...

"disporportionately" sounds too mild...




Indeed. However I've had FASCIST screamed at me on here once to often to point out the truth concerning immigrants

Indeed. However I've had FASCIST screamed at me on here once to often to point out the truth concerning immigrants

That's the usual line of PC people when facts are against their argument and they have to protect the status quo by name calling...

That's the usual line of PC people when facts are against their argument and they have to protect the status quo by name calling...

Indeed.:)

Welcome back to NS....I'll ask the personal questions later :D
My point isnt that jews got no right to be suspicious of arabs. My point is to highlight the hypocrisy...

Israelis have every right to recognize the problem going on with arabs in their country....as do Europeans have every right to recognize the problem going on with arabs in their countries.

Hows that?

*Go online...*

Israelis have every right to recognize the problem going on with arabs in their country....as do Europeans have every right to recognize the problem going on with arabs in their countries.

Hows that?

*Go online...*

Excellent :D
But you know you are "the" minority....

Excellent :D
But you know you are "the" minority....

How am I the minority?

In where?

I totally missed what you were trying to say.

As we speak, there is some crime going on somewhere in Europe, committed by an immigrant. The result is still the same, death, whether by suicide bombing or by "simple" crime...
Fight the crime not the criminals. And most certainly don't label immigrants as criminals, even a society like Australia from convicts proved to be fine in the long term. And an immigrant country like USA has stamped its mark on the century.
***

Israel has the guts to do whatever they want without even justifying it, they are the ultimate religion/race combo using every weapon at their disposal and so their enemies are. Because you look like your opponent if you fight long enough. I don't see any difference between fighting groups in that region whether they are muslim or jew or christian. They all have innocent civillians and merciless bastards by their sides. And the international public should come up with a solution to stop the harm to civillians with a peace plan to be enforced on sides if necessary. But Israel is So strong in international politics, people fear them and just watch the bloodshed on both sides while just talking about who is worse? Arabs or jews? I am starting to think that actually rest of the world is quite enjoying to watch both sides get decimated. But it won't be so nice to watch if either side decides to nuke Newyork or Paris or Istanbul to get attention of international public. terrorists can do that to punish someone they see as the supporter of Israel. And Some maniac in Israel can do it to accuse palestanians and get international support on nuking them out of existance. Like there are suspicions on 9/11 if it was done by deep american or Israel goverment itself to get USA into a new era of war, imitating the Pearl Harbor in a way.

I could say that the holy land belongs to god, and people like to justify that they are better in gods eyes than other people, and thus they should kill to be the one which determines who is best in the holy land. Because god gives a people something does not guarantee that god will let them keep it if they act wrongly. I wish it truly belonged to no one and was designated as "holy land".

Let's see here:
Hinduism, Christianity came close early, in fact pretty much any religion that says they're right.
Which is all of them.
And may I note that you can make anything sound bad taken out of context.
correct me if i'm wrong, but buddhism doesn't say it's better than everyone else.

TS, of course Israel is racist. The entire point of the creation and existence of Israel is to have a JEWISH state. It is an ethnocentric nation which will continue to exist as long as its big brother the US will nuke any country which gets in Israels way (once Israel runs out of its own 200 nukes)

There are no laws that state Jews cannot become citizens in Arabic countries, except for Saudi Arabia, which is shunned by the Arab world as the only Arabic nation still practicing Sharia.

Palestine however, has quite a sizeable, and well represented Christian minority. You must also understand that if 68% would refuse to live in the same BUILDING as an Arab, this is alot higher than racism found in Europe, or even in the Arab world against Jews, or even with Palestinians against Israelis.

I ask you TS, why can't Israel just pull out of the West Bank? The terrorist attacks excuse is just a facade to infinitely delay a full, unconditional withdrawal, they would never stop them forever, no terrorism can be halted, it will always exist, just in lower intensities. I do not understand how terrorist attacks make Israel unable to withdraw, the US is not withdrawing from Iraq because they want to rebuild it, and they still have not sucked out all of the oil, not because of the terrorism there, or the 9/11 terrorist attacks. However Israel couldn't give a damn about the Palestinian people, and they would find that alot of terrorism would end if they fully withdrew to pre-1967 borders. Of course terrorism will not competely stop, but as I said in my above paragraph, you simply cannot stop terrorism.

I also want to point out that of all people able to stop terrorism, the last is the PA. In 2002, Israel staged a massive destruction of the security infrastructure of the PA, because they believed they were not using them well enough as they were not catching alot of the terrorists. However, isn't destroying the infrastructure, which still has not been rebuilt, quite counter productive? Its almost as if Israel WANTS the PA to be blamed for the terrorist attacks.

Food for thought, it tastes good.

TS, of course Israel is racist. The entire point of the creation and existence of Israel is to have a JEWISH state. It is an ethnocentric nation which will continue to exist as long as its big brother the US will nuke any country which gets in Israels way (once Israel runs out of its own 200 nukes)

I ask you TS, why can't Israel just pull out of the West Bank? The terrorist attacks excuse is just a facade to infinitely delay a full, unconditional withdrawal, they would never stop them forever, no terrorism can be halted, it will always exist, just in lower intensities. I do not understand how terrorist attacks make Israel unable to withdraw, the US is not withdrawing from Iraq because they want to rebuild it, and they still have not sucked out all of the oil, not because of the terrorism there, or the 9/11 terrorist attacks. However Israel couldn't give a damn about the Palestinian people, and they would find that alot of terrorism would end if they fully withdrew to pre-1967 borders. Of course terrorism will not competely stop, but as I said in my above paragraph, you simply cannot stop terrorism.

Arabs, in the middle east, do not want Jews in "their" country. Pulling out will not stop terrorists because it still has parts of "their" country in its borders.

Iraqiya, the US will not use its nukes except for in self defense (knowing Bush this is not assured). The only access is activated when the US is being attacked.

Israel was created so the holocaust would not happen again. Also the second offical language is arabic in Israel. This shows that even though some arabs may do some bad things Israel still shows its support for this majority of a minority.

Arabs, in the middle east, do not want Jews in "their" country. Pulling out will not stop terrorists because it still has parts of "their" country in its borders.

Iraqiya, the US will not use its nukes except for in self defense (knowing Bush this is not assured). The only access is activated when the US is being attacked.

Israel was created so the holocaust would not happen again. Also the second offical language is arabic in Israel. This shows that even though some arabs may do some bad things Israel still shows its support for this majority of a minority.

Hes also wrong because there are plenty of Christians and Muslims that live in Israel, not just Jews.

I've been there and I've seen them....basically Iraqiya is just talking out of his ass. Ignore him long enough, and like a weak flame he will snuff.

"disporportionately" sounds too mild...


http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

First published: 05 Sep 2001, 16:57
That is some time ago...

Oh btw, rape crimes are going even higher. But we arent getting statistics of rape vs immigrants since 2001.
And you didn't get it before 2001 either:
The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin.

I see he's just going to post his so-called "proof" of Jewish "racism" without actually talking to anyone about it. Can we get this thread burned as spam?

Leftist: "Z0MG! J00Z=rAciSte! Final Solution time! Z0mGWTFBBQ!1111one!"

Real intelligent. Real tolerant.

...and incredibly biased. That article was nothing more than an attempt to prove racism. One cannot start out with such aims and expect to end up with an unbiased product.

One thing he could have done would have been to look at ARABS' attitudes toward Jews.

but, nah... this wasn't one of those balanced efforts.

TS, of course Israel is racist. The entire point of the creation and existence of Israel is to have a JEWISH state. It is an ethnocentric nation which will continue to exist as long as its big brother the US will nuke any country which gets in Israels way (once Israel runs out of its own 200 nukes)

There are no laws that state Jews cannot become citizens in Arabic countries, except for Saudi Arabia, which is shunned by the Arab world as the only Arabic nation still practicing Sharia.

Palestine however, has quite a sizeable, and well represented Christian minority. You must also understand that if 68% would refuse to live in the same BUILDING as an Arab, this is alot higher than racism found in Europe, or even in the Arab world against Jews, or even with Palestinians against Israelis.

I ask you TS, why can't Israel just pull out of the West Bank? The terrorist attacks excuse is just a facade to infinitely delay a full, unconditional withdrawal, they would never stop them forever, no terrorism can be halted, it will always exist, just in lower intensities. I do not understand how terrorist attacks make Israel unable to withdraw, the US is not withdrawing from Iraq because they want to rebuild it, and they still have not sucked out all of the oil, not because of the terrorism there, or the 9/11 terrorist attacks. However Israel couldn't give a damn about the Palestinian people, and they would find that alot of terrorism would end if they fully withdrew to pre-1967 borders. Of course terrorism will not competely stop, but as I said in my above paragraph, you simply cannot stop terrorism.

I also want to point out that of all people able to stop terrorism, the last is the PA. In 2002, Israel staged a massive destruction of the security infrastructure of the PA, because they believed they were not using them well enough as they were not catching alot of the terrorists. However, isn't destroying the infrastructure, which still has not been rebuilt, quite counter productive? Its almost as if Israel WANTS the PA to be blamed for the terrorist attacks.

Food for thought, it tastes good.
The point that has been made in this thread is that Israelis may be racist, but the state of Israel is not. Arabs may be discriminated against in Israel by Israelis, but not by the state itself. That makes Israel no different than most other country with ethnic minorities. In contrast, in many other middle eastern countries, Jews are second class citizens.

You seem to fail to grasp the fact that whenever you negotiate with or appease terrorists, you legitimize terrorism, and announce to the world that terrorism is an effective political method. You are right in saying that if Israel gives in because of terrorist attacks, the terrorism will not stop. Rather, it will increase; the militants will see that their terror tactics have acheived success, and will continue to use them until Israel is no more.

TS, of course Israel is racist. The entire point of the creation and existence of Israel is to have a JEWISH state. It is an ethnocentric nation which will continue to exist as long as its big brother the US will nuke any country which gets in Israels way (once Israel runs out of its own 200 nukes)

Yes, it is a Jewish state. That doesn't make it racist, any more than the fact that the British Crown claims to be the monarchy of an 'anglo' state, officially, or that China claims to be an ethnically Asian state. A national ethnic identity doesn't equal state-sponsored racism. Virtually all countries on Earth identify with one ethnicity or another officially, while maintaining equal rights for all citizens.

The fact that Arabs are part of the national identify of Israel, as evidenced by the fact that Arabic is one of the official languages, says plenty on this issue.

There are no laws that state Jews cannot become citizens in Arabic countries, except for Saudi Arabia, which is shunned by the Arab world as the only Arabic nation still practicing Sharia.

I know I've pointed this out already, but you seem to be ignoring it. Jordan has a law which explictly states Jews cannot be citizens. Its the Jordanian Nationality Law of 1954. Even today, Jews cannot be citizens in Jordan.

Palestine however, has quite a sizeable, and well represented Christian minority. You must also understand that if 68% would refuse to live in the same BUILDING as an Arab, this is alot higher than racism found in Europe, or even in the Arab world against Jews, or even with Palestinians against Israelis.

Who says its higher? You? I've yet to see any statistics that support that claim.

I ask you TS, why can't Israel just pull out of the West Bank? The terrorist attacks excuse is just a facade to infinitely delay a full, unconditional withdrawal, they would never stop them forever, no terrorism can be halted, it will always exist, just in lower intensities. I do not understand how terrorist attacks make Israel unable to withdraw, the US is not withdrawing from Iraq because they want to rebuild it, and they still have not sucked out all of the oil, not because of the terrorism there, or the 9/11 terrorist attacks. However Israel couldn't give a damn about the Palestinian people, and they would find that alot of terrorism would end if they fully withdrew to pre-1967 borders. Of course terrorism will not competely stop, but as I said in my above paragraph, you simply cannot stop terrorism.

Israel can't just pull out of the West Bank because it results in the deaths of innocent Israeli and Palestinian citizens, both Jew and Arab. The fact that terror from Gaza increased when Israel pulled out of Gaza proves that much.

Not to mention that the number of Palestinians killing each other increased. The fact is, Israel presence has kept the number of Palestinian on Palestinian violence down. I recall showing you the statistics from the Institute for Counter-Terrorism multiple times on this issue, but you must have ignored that as well. The fact that there is a correlation with Israel pulling out of Gaza and Palestinians increasing the murder of one another demonstrates, if anything, that Israel has more concern for Palestinian civilians than the Palestinians themselves do.

Or, we could look at the fact that Palestinian leadership has already been condemned by the whole Arab world for its lack of concern about Palestinians. Such as Arafat being accused of being a criminal by the King of Jordan, Saudi Arabia, President of Egypt, etc. or the current civil war between Hamas and Fatah.

I also want to point out that of all people able to stop terrorism, the last is the PA. In 2002, Israel staged a massive destruction of the security infrastructure of the PA, because they believed they were not using them well enough as they were not catching alot of the terrorists. However, isn't destroying the infrastructure, which still has not been rebuilt, quite counter productive? Its almost as if Israel WANTS the PA to be blamed for the terrorist attacks.

Yes, its a big Zionist Crusader conspiracy against the PA. Israel wants the PA to do terror attacks, so it can blame the PA for them. :rolleyes:

No it is'nt....If Germany attacked France again, and the French managed to push them back, France would have every right to build "colonies" in their captured German territory if they wanted to. Nothing unfair about it..

Actually they wouldn't have such a right. Its expressly a no-no.


There has never been a Palestinean state ever. The Israelis have every right to the land they are "occupying" at this point. ..

Legally? Nope. Its outside their borders as recognised by the rest of the Planet.


Notice that although the Israelis are under no legal obligation to respect the creation of a Palestinean state, that they offered it to them twice?

Yeah, man, that's like, so an occupation man...The fascists...::Goth lopsided-hair-whip::..

A bit like me taking over your house. If I then allow you use the TV, should you thank me for the privelege?


And Arabs in Israel are responsible for 99.99% of suicide bombings and other terror attacks....That's a much higher percentage, and of a much more devastating (to the phyche of an entire peoples') crime than the relatively common crimes of the European immigrants.

Entirely true, however I believe that that particular poster doesnt bend his elbow when he salutes, if you get me, so I'd just ignore the silly little man.


These terrorist acts are designed to destroy the fabric of society over time, and to open Israel up for utter barbarity and genocide..

No, they are a reaction to the occupation. Should the occupation end, so should they.


the derailing of peace plans by blowing up their own people on a beach...

Theres no proof of that at the moment. At all.


On the other hand, every arab attack in Israel, whether it be suicide bombings, rocket fire, or just double parking...is coordinated, for the most part, to play part in some larger effect in an all out war on Israel to open up the gates of Israel and let the Muslim neighbors in to pillage it and slaughter the Jews....

Will they be dressed like Herbert Lom in "El Cid" and dash about everywhere?

What if somebody forgets to lock the "gates of Israel"? Will they be unable to get to their tanks, planes and nuclear weapons before the pillaging and slaughtering begins? Are they parked outside?


Arabs may be discriminated against in Israel by Israelis, but not by the state itself.....

"The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens. "
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm


Israel can't just pull out of the West Bank because it results in the deaths of innocent Israeli and Palestinian citizens, both Jew and Arab.

Its presence causes the violence. Highlighting violence in Gaza ignores the context of the wider and continued occupation. Only when all settlements and troops are withdrawn will there be any chance of peace.

Its presence causes the violence. Highlighting violence in Gaza ignores the context of the wider and continued occupation. Only when all settlements and troops are withdrawn will there be any chance of peace.

That would be a reasonable argument, if history didn't disagree with you. The fact that there was violence against Israelis from Palestinian Arabs when there was no State of Israel, thus no occupation, and when there was a State of Israel but no occupation refutes the argument that violence is a result of occupation. In fact, what you're claiming commits the fallacy of non causa pro causa.

That would be a reasonable argument, if history didn't disagree with you. The fact that there was violence against Israelis from Palestinian Arabs when there was no State of Israel, thus no occupation, and when there was a State of Israel but no occupation refutes the argument that violence is a result of occupation. In fact, what you're claiming commits the fallacy of non causa pro causa.

What fallacy does building civillian settlements in the midst of a people who've been kicked out of their homes once already commit?

There were no suicide bombers before the occupation - no Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc and so on.

As time has gone on, things have become more bitter, sides even more entrenched, brutal and vengeful. What society will it have bred in Israel, let alone the occupied territories?

There were no suicide bombers before the occupation - no Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc and so on.

This is a red herring. It doesn't matter if there were suicide bombers or not - the fact remains, Israelis and Jews were routinely victims of terror before any occupation. Arguing that suicide bombers didn't exist yet doesn't change that fact.

The fact that terror against Jews existed before the formation of the State of Israel, and the fact that terror against Israelis existed after the formation of the State of Israel categorically refutes the claim that terror is a result of Israeli occupation. In fact, examining the Arab massacres of Jews that occured before the occupation, like the Hebron massacre, and the fact that more Jews were killed in those years than in these years as a result of terror, it could easily be argued that terror was worse before the occupation.

Where do you live? A lot of kids in my school were pissed when it appeared that they were building a mosque nearby. Turned out to be an Orthodox Church (Macedonian, I think).

South-eastern suburbs of Melbourne...it was definitely a Mosque.

And I don't mind Vietnamese or Aborigines on the whole, but we had a bad experience with Vietnamese neighbours. Turns out they had something to do with drugs. Police with dogs came to our house and asked if they could go over the fence in our back yard. Yeah, we let them >_>

Heh, the Vietnamese i've known over the years haven't been like that at all.

Actually, all of the drug dealers I know of are skips. :p

This is a red herring. It doesn't matter if there were suicide bombers or not - the fact remains, Israelis and Jews were routinely victims of terror before any occupation. Arguing that suicide bombers didn't exist yet doesn't change that fact..

I'd imagine the relatives of those people blown up by them would disagree. If something occurs that has not occured before there must be some new factor operating. And 20 years or so of occupation seems to have been that new factor, as suicide bombings, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc all came about in the early 1980's


The fact that terror against Jews existed before the formation of the State of Israel, and the fact that terror against Israelis existed after the formation of the State of Israel categorically refutes the claim that terror is a result of Israeli occupation. ..

But the earlier violence was the result of the creation of the state of Israel. The occupation seeks to reimpose those conditions once more, on the same people who were the victims the first time round. And what one can excuse in 1948, in the absence of a Jewish state, is mosty certainly not excusable now when there is one.


In fact, examining the Arab massacres of Jews that occured before the occupation, like the Hebron massacre, and the fact that more Jews were killed in those years than in these years as a result of terror, it could easily be argued that terror was worse before the occupation.

The situation was entirely different before the foundation of the state, as well you know.

I'd imagine the relatives of those people blown up by them would disagree. If something occurs that has not occured before there must be some new factor operating. And 20 years or so of occupation seems to have been that new factor, as suicide bombings, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc all came about in the early 1980's

20 years of anything can't be synonymous with 'new.' The fact that it resulted after 20 years of occupation proves that occupation didn't cause a new rash in terror, otherwise it would have actually correlated with the whole occupation.

And I'm sure the relatives of people blown up by suicide bombers don't dumb down the severity of other types of terrorist attacks, as you're attempting to do by singling out the fact that suicide bombings are new while ignoring the fact that terror against Jews has been going on in the Middle East long before the formation of the State of Israel.

But the earlier violence was the result of the creation of the state of Israel. The occupation seeks to reimpose those conditions once more, on the same people who were the victims the first time round. And what one can excuse in 1948, in the absence of a Jewish state, is mosty certainly not excusable now when there is one.

No, it wasn't. Things like the Hebron massacre prove that much. The fact that Jews were being killed by Arabs in the Middle East in the decades before the formation of the State of Israel refutes your claim, once again.

This is also contradictory to what you claimed before. First its "oh, terror is a result of the occupation." Then you say "oh no, suicide bombings are the result of the occupation." Then you say "well no, its the result of the creation of the State of Israel!" You keep dodging.

The situation was entirely different before the foundation of the state, as well you know.

It wasn't. Terror was so great against Jews before the foundation of the state that they had to create militas to defend themselves. And, as I wrote before, more Jews were killed in these early years of immigration as a result of terror than Jews killed today as a result of terror. Thus, your claims that terror against Jews is a result of the occupation, or a result of the State of Israel existing, don't work either. Terror against Jews has been occuring at Arab hands for decades before Israel even existed.

Not just decades, but for centuries. If we recounted all of the Middle Eastern terror against Jews, we could go back from one Muslim to the next, all the way to Mohammad's systematic genocide of Jews in Mecca and Medina.

As we speak, there is some crime going on somewhere in Europe, committed by an immigrant. The result is still the same, death, whether by suicide bombing or by "simple" crime...
You truly don't see the difference between a crime commited for purely personal reasons, and a crime commited to weaken and destroy the states' stability, do you? I feel sorry for you. When the islamofascists start cutting off European heads on live television, we'll still be there to help you, even though Europeans have been spewing bullshit and hatred at us for the last 30 years...That's just how compassionate we are.

Actually they wouldn't have such a right. Its expressly a no-no.
Where, in any Law, is it a no-no? And even if it was, i'd argue it's a stupid law, for patently obvious reasons...

Legally? Nope. Its outside their borders as recognised by the rest of the Planet.
A bit like me taking over your house. If I then allow you use the TV, should you thank me for the privelege?
Quote-unquote "Palestine" is not a nation as recognized by the rest of the planet. It is neutral territory. Anyone who can keep it owns it.
Entirely true, however I believe that that particular poster doesnt bend his elbow when he salutes, if you get me, so I'd just ignore the silly little man.
Really? Huh. How did you learn this?
No, they are a reaction to the occupation. Should the occupation end, so should they.
Bullshit. Hamass' main objective is to perform genocide on the Jews, it's stated in their charter, and also the charters of many other terrorist organizations.
Theres no proof of that at the moment. At all.
Israel did'nt do it, and if Israel did'nt do it, who did? The Palestinean terrorists have a history of producing propaganda by any means necessary, including killing their own.

What if somebody forgets to lock the "gates of Israel"? Will they be unable to get to their tanks, planes and nuclear weapons before the pillaging and slaughtering begins? Are they parked outside?
Oh, for fucks' sake. He was using a metaphor.

And no, if they are invaded and genocided, they will use their nukes in the area, and they would have every right to slaughter every scumbag nation that supported that slaughter, including Palestine itself and most surrounding nations.

If you don't want a nuclear war, support Israel...If you however, want to see mushroom clowds all the way from Libya to Persia, go right ahead and keep supporting Palestinean anti-Jewish terrorism...

Why does Israel always come up with so much bullshit?

And why are our tax dollars paying for Israeli racist terrorism?

""Palestine" is not a nation as recognized by the rest of the planet. It is neutral territory. Anyone who can keep it owns it. "

WRONG! Dead wrong.

list of nations who dorecognize the State of Palestine:Algeria, Angola, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equitoreal Guniea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Libya, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, Mauritius, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Niger, Nigeria, Rwanda, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Cambodia, China, India, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Maldives, Mongolia, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Philippines, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Albania, Austria, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Hungary, Malta, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine, Vatican City, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, and Vanautu.

Somebody count and tell me how many that is.

Why does Israel always come up with so much bullshit?

And why are our tax dollars paying for Israeli racist terrorism?

Go live in a arab country, see how big of a shithole it is, then your understand why we support Israel when it stands up to arab aggression.

""Palestine" is not a nation as recognized by the rest of the planet. It is neutral territory. Anyone who can keep it owns it. "

WRONG! Dead wrong.

list of nations who dorecognize the State of Palestine:Algeria, Angola, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, Equitoreal Guniea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Libya, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, Mauritius, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Niger, Nigeria, Rwanda, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Cambodia, China, India, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Maldives, Mongolia, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Philippines, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Albania, Austria, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Hungary, Malta, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine, Vatican City, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, and Vanautu.

Somebody count and tell me how many that is.

Somebody count and tell me how many of those are credible stable first world countries who are capable of even thinking and acting outside their own countries....

Eight, which is a lot.

It always struck me as odd that a nation of people who'd been shat on A LOT would be so oppresive.

Let's take A) The Irish and B) The Israelis. The Irish don't feel the need to extract revenge to the tune of 800 years from the English. We even gave them Temple Bar in Dublin city centre to have stag and hen nights in. I think anyone will agree that a bunch of English types on a hen/stag type weekender is.. is.. is a distinct phenomenon, especially if done right.

How many Arabs can fire off a few traditional volleys at a wedding in the state of Israel? I'd imagine not too many, just a guess mind you.

Go live in a arab country, see how big of a shithole it is, then your understand why we support Israel when it stands up to arab aggression.
Absolutely. That's the entire point of supporting Israel.

If you stand with Israel, you stand for freedom...If you stand with their enemies, you stand for shitholes. It may seem simplistic, but when you boil it all down, that's what it comes down to.

Considering that Israel has everything to lose by being outpopulated by ethnic Palestianians and Arabs if they were considered full-fledged citizens, does anyone here truly believe that if HAMAS and other organizations recognized Israel's right to exist there'd be anything but Apartheid Part Deux going on?

This should be amusing.....
Yep.:p

I was going to be serious and say Japan...

TS, of course Israel is racist. The entire point of the creation and existence of Israel is to have a JEWISH state. It is an ethnocentric nation which will continue to exist as long as its big brother the US will nuke any country which gets in Israels way (once Israel runs out of its own 200 nukes)

There are no laws that state Jews cannot become citizens in Arabic countries, except for Saudi Arabia, which is shunned by the Arab world as the only Arabic nation still practicing Sharia.

Palestine however, has quite a sizeable, and well represented Christian minority. You must also understand that if 68% would refuse to live in the same BUILDING as an Arab, this is alot higher than racism found in Europe, or even in the Arab world against Jews, or even with Palestinians against Israelis.

I ask you TS, why can't Israel just pull out of the West Bank? The terrorist attacks excuse is just a facade to infinitely delay a full, unconditional withdrawal, they would never stop them forever, no terrorism can be halted, it will always exist, just in lower intensities. I do not understand how terrorist attacks make Israel unable to withdraw, the US is not withdrawing from Iraq because they want to rebuild it, and they still have not sucked out all of the oil, not because of the terrorism there, or the 9/11 terrorist attacks. However Israel couldn't give a damn about the Palestinian people, and they would find that alot of terrorism would end if they fully withdrew to pre-1967 borders. Of course terrorism will not competely stop, but as I said in my above paragraph, you simply cannot stop terrorism.

I also want to point out that of all people able to stop terrorism, the last is the PA. In 2002, Israel staged a massive destruction of the security infrastructure of the PA, because they believed they were not using them well enough as they were not catching alot of the terrorists. However, isn't destroying the infrastructure, which still has not been rebuilt, quite counter productive? Its almost as if Israel WANTS the PA to be blamed for the terrorist attacks.

Food for thought, it tastes good.

Yes of course but the first Palestanian leaders were highly cultured ones that gave lectures in european univercities and all around the world told about their culture to gain support. Israel assasinations to those educated ones that were in the core of Palestanian organizations led to result of their place being taken by angry terrorists. Everytime Israel destroys some leader of Palestanians one worse takes its palce and there were many on both sides came with peace plans and they were dead.
Search for last 4 leaders of Israel and Palestine that came close to a peaceful solution, you will see all of them are quite dead.
By the way I don't like arabs too because historically they betrayed the Ottoman Republic for English gold. The last peace middle east saw was under our Empire, Christian, Jew and Muslim had to live in peace or else... but they didnt enjoyed it, wanted to rage ethnic wars. Now here they are, all of them are dying. Why does it bother me?

Because international public is always hypocrite. As long as it suits them there is human rights and universal independent law etc. But when it doesnt suit them its just the stronger one wins heh heh. Why? Because its clearly controlled, all those international groups are nothing more than tools to penetrate countries independence and effect their internal decisions and nothing more. I just want it to become clear for even the dumbest person and discussing the subject really helps me to better my arguements or change them for more effective ones.

20 years of anything can't be synonymous with 'new.' The fact that it resulted after 20 years of occupation proves that occupation didn't cause a new rash in terror, otherwise it would have actually correlated with the whole occupation..

The occupation has increased in brutality with time. And the hope of its end by outiside intervention has faded.


Not just decades, but for centuries. If we recounted all of the Middle Eastern terror against Jews, we could go back from one Muslim to the next, all the way to Mohammad's systematic genocide of Jews in Mecca and Medina.

Yet historically theres been less persecution by Arabs than by christians.

You truly don't see the difference between a crime commited for purely personal reasons, and a crime commited to weaken and destroy the states' stability, do you? I feel sorry for you. When the islamofascists start cutting off European heads on live television, we'll still be there to help you, even though Europeans have been spewing bullshit and hatred at us for the last 30 years...That's just how compassionate we are.
...

If thats the same kind of "compassion" that was shown the Latin Americans, South East Asians and now the Iraqis, I'll take my chances with the Jihadis on me own thanks.


Where, in any Law, is it a no-no? And even if it was, i'd argue it's a stupid law, for patently obvious reasons......

Sometimes one comes across a case where one does not know where to begin.....


Quote-unquote "Palestine" is not a nation as recognized by the rest of the planet. It is neutral territory. Anyone who can keep it owns it. ......

It was not "neutral territory". Ever. I find your level of ignorance disturbing, in one who holds so trenchant a view...


Bullshit. Hamass' main objective is to perform genocide on the Jews, it's stated in their charter, and also the charters of many other terrorist organizations.......

I don't think it is. And what are these other organisations? The PLO charter recognises Israel.

Israel did'nt do it, and if Israel did'nt do it, who did? The Palestinean terrorists have a history of producing propaganda by any means necessary, including killing their own........

No, Israel say they didnt do it. If it was Hamas and the situation reversed I doubt you'd believe them, would you?


Oh, for fucks' sake. He was using a metaphor.........

I know.


And no, if they are invaded and genocided, they will use their nukes in the area, and they would have every right to slaughter every scumbag nation that supported that slaughter, including Palestine itself and most surrounding nations..........


If they were "invaded and genocided" they'd all be dead. And you said earlier that Palestine wasnt a nation. Try deep breaths ....I know ytou find the idea of "nuking" exciting, but still....


If you don't want a nuclear war, support Israel...If you however, want to see mushroom clowds all the way from Libya to Persia, go right ahead and keep supporting Palestinean anti-Jewish terrorism...

I've never supported any group that targets people solely on grounds of their presumed religon/etnicity.

Go live in a arab country, see how big of a shithole it is, then your understand why we support Israel when it stands up to arab aggression.

So when Idi Amin made Uganda a shithole, Apartheid South Africa was good?

And while Israel is an occupier, its the aggressor.


Let's take A) The Irish and B) The Israelis. The Irish don't feel the need to extract revenge to the tune of 800 years from the English. We even gave them Temple Bar in Dublin city centre to have stag and hen nights in. I think anyone will agree that a bunch of English types on a hen/stag type weekender is.. is.. is a distinct phenomenon, especially if done right..

Thats because they aren't occupying the 26 counties anymore. And even then during the hunger strikes they'd have been taking their life in their hands... Still, the point is that as long as theres Israeli troops in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank, theres no hope for any form of reconcilation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/697458.html
Israel, the most racist nation in the world? How ironic.

Oh, I get it, this is a "Leftists bash the j00z!" thread...Typical.
Leftists have always been the real allies of Jews.

Gee, I can't even comprehend not wanting to live next to an Arab in a country that is constantly being attacked by them...Maybe i'd be a bit jumpy around em' as well if one of them blew up my neighbor in a Starbucks.
And yet hundreds of thousands of Arabs live peacefully in Israel.

When the islamofascists start cutting off European heads on live television, we'll still be there to help you, even though Europeans have been spewing bullshit and hatred at us for the last 30 yea
Europe has been giving the US money for thirty years, not hatred. :eek:

Leftists have always been the real allies of Jews.
not all off them. much of the leftist hate for jew hidden as fight for human rights and end of occuption. her true face discover while emensty and other organizations had more complains for israel at the same time the israel arabs get more rights than other middle-eastren arabs, and there are jenocide in africa, dictatorships in china and north korea and terror attacks, and those things get small part on their articles, relatively.

in the opposite most of the right wing anti-semitism is clear and simple as alien hate

not all off them. much of the leftist hate for jew hidden as fight for human rights and end of occuption. her true face discover while emensty and other organizations had more complains for israel at the same time the israel arabs get more rights than other middle-eastren arabs, and there are jenocide in africa, dictatorships in china and north korea and terror attacks, and those things get small part on their articles, relatively.

in the opposite most of the right wing anti-semitism is clear and simple as alien hate


Crapola. I'm here under an assumed name and can say what the fuck I want. If I wanted to go on an anti-Jewish rant I not only would, but could, with no IRL consequences whatsover. And the same for the rest of us. And Amnesty, HRW and whoever else are not anti-jewish. Theres a large group of the Jewish diaspora that think exactly as we do.

Crapola. I'm here under an assumed name and can say what the fuck I want. If I wanted to go on an anti-Jewish rant I not only would, but could, with no IRL consequences whatsover. And the same for the rest of us. And Amnesty, HRW and whoever else are not anti-jewish. Theres a large group of the Jewish diaspora that think exactly as we do.
well, it isn't exactly the same anti-semitism. it is much more sophisticated.
also the leftists see temselves as good persons who aren't hate without good reasons (oppose to the right-wing hate which they disagree with).
if you take only few cases from some occasions you can't really divide them from legitmate claims. ias leftist israeli i support some of this claims. it just the frequency and strengh of this criticism compare to other states.
if you aren't agree with me, maybe you answer few questions:
is israel are the most evil state on earth or the only one who made some wrongs?
if not, why israel is always the main subject in all of amensty and other organization reports?
why no leftist take into acount the palastinian and arab part in the bloodship?
why leftists see terror against israelis as different from other terror attacks?
why israel is the only state on earth which is legitmacy to existence is open to discuss? the only state who can't justice her actions by self defence?
why the jewish right to jewish state seen as less important than the french right to french state? how the UN can compare the zionism to racism and nobody will think it crazy?
how the israeli arabs can get more rights than their brothers in other middle eastren states, and still israel are the bad ones?

Because it's helicopter gunships and armoured cars against children throwing stones. It's terrible that the "terrorists" are behaving like this but it's beyond any civilised boundary when a state behaves like Israel. Supposed to be higher standards at play dotcha know. That's why the death penalty is wrong. The state is supposed to be above murder for any reason. Israeli soldiers beating up housewives and children is only going to recruit another generation into the resistance.

If we're going to slap people with the racist brush, let's be even-handed about it.

For years the Japanese have been considered one of the most racist countries in the world. If you live in Japan and are not "pure Japanese", you're at a considerable disadvantage. Koreans have lived in Japan for years and suffered terrible discrimination - a Japanese who marries a Korean suffers discrimination, unless the Korean in question can hide his/her ethnic background. The Japanese don't consider Okinawans to be "pure Japanese". One of the reasons the Japanese were so vicious during WWII was because they considered their enemies to be inferior so therefore they were permitted to perpetrate any atrocity they wished. This attitude is still prevalent.

You can name any country in the world and, with justification, name it racist. You can even see government regulations in any country that seem to support racism.

The pot should really stop calling the kettle black.

Because it's helicopter gunships and armoured cars against children throwing stones.we passed this stage before ages. now the palastinians had bomb cars and suicide terrorists, and still the leftists don't think something wrong here.
It's terrible that the "terrorists" are behaving like this but it's beyond any civilised boundary when a state behaves like Israel. Supposed to be higher standards at play dotcha know. That's why the death penalty is wrong. The state is supposed to be above murder for any reason. Israeli soldiers beating up housewives and children is only going to recruit another generation into the resistance.
and I guess that why the death penalty and the harming of basic human rights in china, north korea and the arab states get less headlines and small part in amensty reports and the UN condemnings, than israel?
or why leftist use the term jenocide more on israel actions than on sudan?
that why all this states has right to exist but israel not?

we passed this stage before ages. now the palastinians had bomb cars and suicide terrorists, and still the leftists don't think something wrong here.

and I guess that why the death penalty and the harming of basic human rights in china, north korea and the arab states get less headlines and small part in amensty reports and the UN condemnings, than israel?
or why leftist use the term jenocide more on israel actions than on sudan?
that why all this states has right to exist but israel not?

Exactly.

Exactly.
how the hell it answer my questions?

not all off them. much of the leftist hate for jew hidden as fight for human rights and end of occuption.
Some leftists hate Israel, because they see it as an abusive, aggressive state that is making the world a worse place. They don't hate Jews. Many Jews criticise Israeli policies without being self-hating.


why the jewish right to jewish state seen as less important than the french right to french state?
Because Israelis founded their state by immigrating to the area sixty years ago and just kicking the existing residents off their land. France has always been inhabited by the French people and their ancestors.


if not, why israel is always the main subject in all of amensty and other organization reports?
Not true at all. Amnesty (which is not a leftist organisation) condemns all human rights abuse it can find. If I had to pick out countries that are currently taking the most heat from AI, it's probably Mexico, Sudan and the USA. A couple of years ago it was Iran, Indonesia and China.

Israel is not disproportionately targeted. You're just not looking hard enough.

we passed this stage before ages. now the palastinians had bomb cars and suicide terrorists, and still the leftists don't think something wrong here.
I don't think anyone (besides hamas and the like) thinks that suicide bombing is not wrong.

Some leftists hate Israel, because they see it as an abusive, aggressive state that is making the world a worse place. They don't hate Jews. Many Jews criticise Israeli policies without being self-hating.maybe, but while they disproportionally target israel, it has to be something else.
I know it isn't all of them, but for some occuption is just excuse for anti-semitism.

Because Israelis founded their state by immigrating to the area sixty years ago and just kicking the existing residents off their land. France has always been inhabited by the French people and their ancestors.
without remind you that israelities were kicked from this are before 2 thousands years, and want to rebuild their homeland.
without talk about the desert and swamps who was in most of this area before jewish people come back and import modern agricolture and industry (which make many arab from the area to come and search for work).
without tell you that arab leaders convinced most of the israeli arab to run and let the arab armies conquer the land in 1948 (the ones who didn't listen get israeli citizenship with mostly equal rights).
without saying that arab states never help the refuges in all the years while they rule the area (until 1967 when they kicked from their areas and they start to tell that israel should leave the conquered areas and let the palastinian people (new definition from those times) build their country).
without all that political questions, I ask you that: is the jewish has right to country like any other nation, or not? if we fine with that we may get progress.

Not true at all. Amnesty (which is not a leftist organisation) condemns all human rights abuse it can find. If I had to pick out countries that are currently taking the most heat from AI, it's probably Mexico, Sudan and the USA. A couple of years ago it was Iran, Indonesia and China.

Israel is not disproportionately targeted. You're just not looking hard enough.depend on the view point. I remember some nasty reports, but let remind it open.


I don't think anyone (besides hamas and the like) thinks that suicide bombing is not wrong.no they just justified their reasons, paint it as evil israeli tank against poor palastinian child, and "forget" to add the terrorists while they blame israel for every problem in the middle east.

maybe, but while they disproportionally target israel, it has to be something else.
I know it isn't all of them, but for some occuption is just excuse for anti-semitism.

no they just justified their reasons, paint it as evil israeli tank against poor palastinian child, and "forget" to add the terrorists while they blame israel for every problem in the middle east.

Yeah I mean when the Chinese used tanks against students noone said a thing, oh wait a minute I do remember some kind of noise.

Isreali army forces kill a lot of Palestinians all the time, the Mossad tortures a lot of Arabs all the time. Thinking this is bullshit is what you call anti semitism. Well if defending all that torture and death is semitic, then pretty much the whole world is anti-semitic. Results not excuses.

PS To say Amnesty isn't leftist is a somewhat bizzare statement. It doesn't get much more left than Amnesty.

hummmm good question.....

Yeah I mean when the Chinese used tanks against students noone said a thing, oh wait a minute I do remember some kind of noise.

Isreali army forces kill a lot of Palestinians all the time, the Mossad tortures a lot of Arabs all the time. Thinking this is bullshit is what you call anti semitism. Well if defending all that torture and death is semitic, then pretty much the whole world is anti-semitic. Results not excuses.

PS To say Amnesty isn't leftist is a somewhat bizzare statement. It doesn't get much more left than Amnesty.
just you know, that israel has laws against torture for more than 10 years, the judical system ban some of the past actions of the army although it used to decrease harm in israelis. that much more than other countries which get less headlines. the leftists target inproportionally israel, and the fact that sometimes they talk a while about other stae wan't change that.
still, you didn't answer most of my questions.

Oooooh.... Where to start:


As a member of a Jewish family, although not a practicing (nor circumsised :P) Jew, i feel it is my duty to clear a few things up.

[LIST=1]
We're not evil.
We're not the Mafia
We're not out to getcha.
Eastern European Jews are among the most racially tollerant peoples in the world.
[/LIST

Any questions?

well, it isn't exactly the same anti-semitism. it is much more sophisticated.?

It isn't the same as anti-semitism...because it doesn't involve hating Jews. Its nothing to do with it at all.


also the leftists see temselves as good persons who aren't hate without good reasons (oppose to the right-wing hate which they disagree with).
if you take only few cases from some occasions you can't really divide them from legitmate claims. ias leftist israeli i support some of this claims. it just the frequency and strengh of this criticism compare to other states..?

Thats because its supported by an english speaking country, in full glare of the western media . Add to this the self righteous attitude of certain Americans and there you go. Similar and worse has indeed been done by others, and yes, theyre swine too. But whens the last time you saw an indonesian on an english speaking board justifing what they do in Aceh, and on some of the islands? Or the Chinese and tibet?

And "good" is often a relative term.


f you aren't agree with me, maybe you answer few questions:
is israel are the most evil state on earth or the only one who made some wrongs?..?

They are not the worst, and they are not the only wrong doers on the planet.



if not, why israel is always the main subject in all of amensty and other organization reports??..?

They aren't.


why no leftist take into acount the palastinian and arab part in the bloodship?
why leftists see terror against israelis as different from other terror attacks?


Because Israel is occupying the territories.

why israel is the only state on earth which is legitmacy to existence is open to discuss?

That would vary on the person speaking. Personally I dont say that Israel is not a legitamate state, as I think it is one. What i dispute is that it was not done at the expense of the Arabs. Its an historic fact that tshould be faced up to.


the only state who can't justice her actions by self defence?

Occupation again.....

how the UN can compare the zionism to racism and nobody will think it crazy?
?

There are zionists who are racist. Plus it ended in the expulsion of Arabs. Presumably that was the reasoning behind it.


how the israeli arabs can get more rights than their brothers in other middle eastren states, and still israel are the bad ones?

They still arent treated well, and the fact that the Arab states are run by a pack of bastards in neither here nor there. And yes, the occupation.

It isn't the same as anti-semitism...because it doesn't involve hating Jews. Its nothing to do with it at all.



Thats because its supported by an english speaking country, in full glare of the western media . Add to this the self righteous attitude of certain Americans and there you go. Similar and worse has indeed been done by others, and yes, theyre swine too. But whens the last time you saw an indonesian on an english speaking board justifing what they do in Aceh, and on some of the islands? Or the Chinese and tibet?

And "good" is often a relative term.



They are not the worst, and they are not the only wrong doers on the planet.




They aren't.



Because Israel is occupying the territories.


That would vary on the person speaking. Personally I dont say that Israel is not a legitamate state, as I think it is one. What i dispute is that it was not done at the expense of the Arabs. Its an historic fact that tshould be faced up to.



Occupation again.....


There are zionists who are racist. Plus it ended in the expulsion of Arabs. Presumably that was the reasoning behind it.



They still arent treated well, and the fact that the Arab states are run by a pack of bastards in neither here nor there. And yes, the occupation.
I believe the occuption wrong and immoral. the recent goverment moves were in propose to end the occuption.
on the other ends, the palastinians keep shooting missles from gaza strip on israeli area (instead of rebuild the strip), and still it israel fault? what about the organizations who automatically take as truth every thing the palastinians said?
the facts are it seen as needed to justify israel existence, while any other state has no need to, and people keep remind the occuption although most of the terrorists said loud that the terror wan't stop even than.
the least israel is ask, is fair responsibilty will be on the palastinians, the terrorists and the arab state. as long as it didn't happened I think the leftist opinion are at least hypocratic.

I believe the occuption wrong and immoral. the recent goverment moves were in propose to end the occuption.
on the other ends, the palastinians keep shooting missles from gaza strip on israeli area (instead of rebuild the strip), and still it israel fault? what about the organizations who automatically take as truth every thing the palastinians said?
the facts are it seen as needed to justify israel existence, while any other state has no need to, and people keep remind the occuption although most of the terrorists said loud that the terror wan't stop even than.
the least israel is ask, is fair responsibilty will be on the palastinians, the terrorists and the arab state. as long as it didn't happened I think the leftist opinion are at least hypocratic.

Should there be a withdrawal from Arab East jerusalem, the West Bank, and the removal of the settlements, you can bomb the crap out of them whenever they attack and not hear a peep from me. But while the occupation goes on, Israel is in the wrong and its that simple.

Should there be a withdrawal from Arab East jerusalem, the West Bank, and the removal of the settlements, you can bomb the crap out of them whenever they attack and not hear a peep from me. But while the occupation goes on, Israel is in the wrong and its that simple.
generally, I agree with you. my main point is just that some percent of the leftists hid under the "occuption claim" while their last goal is destruction of the jewish state.
try to remember that even the palastinian official stand want after the end of the occuption, that israel will let the refuges back to their past-homes. that will be the end of the jewish state, but many don't understand it.

Why doesn't Israel just do the right thing. Stop those snipers from killing people with headshots. If my kid had been killed by some sniper for throwing stones I'd be extra extra pissed off. Stop the punishment beatings. If someone does something worthy of it arrest them, don't smash up their family house and beat up their mother. Just arrest them. Then don't torture them. It's the whole killing and torture bit that really pisses off the rest of the world. Noone gives a crap if people are arrested. Just arrest every Palestinian who causes trouble. After a while there'll be noone left except peaceable types and one massive gaol.

without remind you that israelities were kicked from this are before 2 thousands years, and want to rebuild their homeland.
Two thousand years is a bit long to take land claims seriously. Civilisations come and go in that time. The people who were living in what is now Israel 70 years ago had been there for many generations. The Jews who showed up were new people.

without talk about the desert and swamps who was in most of this area before jewish people come back and import modern agricolture and industry (which make many arab from the area to come and search for work).
I agree. I think that Israel made the desert into a better land than the Arabs ever would have.

without tell you that arab leaders convinced most of the israeli arab to run and let the arab armies conquer the land in 1948 (the ones who didn't listen get israeli citizenship with mostly equal rights).
That can be put down to foolish national pride on the part of the Arabs. They believed that they could prevail over the immigrants.

without saying that arab states never help the refuges in all the years while they rule the area (until 1967 when they kicked from their areas and they start to tell that israel should leave the conquered areas and let the palastinian people (new definition from those times) build their country).
Palestinians tend to be discriminated against in the Arab world, similar to how Jews were discriminated against in the Western World. Palestinians should have a country.

without all that political questions, I ask you that: is the jewish has right to country like any other nation, or not? if we fine with that we may get progress.
Normally I don't think religions have a right to countries, but the Jews are a special case, so yes I think that Israel should exist.

PS To say Amnesty isn't leftist is a somewhat bizzare statement. It doesn't get much more left than Amnesty.
From Amnesty
AI is independent of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion. It does not support or oppose any government or political system, nor does it support or oppose the views of the victims whose rights it seeks to protect. It is concerned solely with the impartial protection of human rights.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/aboutai-index-eng

Why doesn't Israel just do the right thing. Stop those snipers from killing people with headshots. If my kid had been killed by some sniper for throwing stones I'd be extra extra pissed off. Stop the punishment beatings. If someone does something worthy of it arrest them, don't smash up their family house and beat up their mother. Just arrest them. Then don't torture them. It's the whole killing and torture bit that really pisses off the rest of the world. Noone gives a crap if people are arrested. Just arrest every Palestinian who causes trouble. After a while there'll be noone left except peaceable types and one massive gaol.
israel isn't torture people. it is illegal even in the local laws.
there aren't snipers shoting stone-threwers. we hardly use snipers anyway.
we don't beat mothers or people we meet in the street. if there are few cases of unjustified use of force, the army check himself and take care of the problematic soldiers.
we smash only houses of terrorists families, after the terror atack happened. if sometimes innocent families take harm on their or their houses, it is because this is very crowded area, and it is very hard to decrease the unnecessery harms (although we do all the efforts, even when it may cause israeli harms).
we can't go and arrest everybody. we do arrsests only after good research.
most of this things are more than you can said about other armies, still we get all the attacks. the palastinians had civil war between all of their different organizations, and they kill themselves more than we do. they will make trouble even if we stay out of the land.

Normally I don't think religions have a right to countries, but the Jews are a special case, so yes I think that Israel should exist.
undercovered antisemitics aren't agree with this claim. that was my main point. I know that big part of the claims are justified or arguable, but still there is big number of antisemitic leftists.

Since when did Leftist mean anti-Semite?

As far as I can remember, right-wingers don't have the best track recond when it comes to the whole "Jewish Question".

Zionism is in itself racist. You can see that as good or bad, but it just is, it's based entirerly on the view that Zionist Jews are better then all other races.

fuck sake people! its not racism... Jews and Arabs are separated by religious values... not skin colour.

Sure USA...:gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

fuck sake people! its not racism... Jews and Arabs are separated by religious values... not skin colour.Same thing most of the time. Orthodox Muslims view Jewish people as sub humans. Orthodox Jews view Muslims & all non-Jew & non-Jewish peoples as sub human.

Racism, religious prejudice or just pure insane bollox. It's all the same.

That said, if I were an Israeli Jew, I'd want to live next to a Muslim Arab. Presumably the safest place to be in that country. Then again, if I was an Israeli Jew, I'd emigrate. Segregation may not be official policy, but it's none the less a fact. I'd feel dirty calling such a place my home.

Since when did Leftist mean anti-Semite?

As far as I can remember, right-wingers don't have the best track recond when it comes to the whole "Jewish Question". the fact that right-wingers can be anti-semitic, don't necceserily mean that leftists can't. it all depend in the question: do the jewish state need to be judged by the same standarts of other states, or not.

Zionism is in itself racist. You can see that as good or bad, but it just is, it's based entirerly on the view that Zionist Jews are better then all other races.
first, let me correct you: racism is negative word, you can't use it as good or bad.
second, I don't know from where you get this propoganda. Zionist aren't see themselves as better person, we see ourselve as equal (something that hypocratic leftists tend to misunderstand).
the zionism is organization who founded in propose to get for the jewish people safe free homeland (as every other nation had homeland). the mainstream of the zionism wanted this state be founded on the land of israel (just for the record, there are natives and states all over the world. if we wanted other territory we were still needed to take it from other nation (which didn't exist at the time we setlled the area)).
compare it to racism is very unthoughtable statement.

Same thing most of the time. Orthodox Muslims view Jewish people as sub humans. Orthodox Jews view Muslims & all non-Jew & non-Jewish peoples as sub human.

Racism, religious prejudice or just pure insane bollox. It's all the same.those are religious jews and muslims. by the bible, they believe secular jewish (or other stream of them) are sub-human. taking them for example is nonsense. the reason is mainly security, as most of the israeli wouldn't cross the 67's borders even for visit jewish friends.
btw, there are areas mixed by jewish and arabs as haifa and the north. seperated cities are more because people chosing to live near people like them, than because they can't live near different people (yes, arabs also aren't want to live in jewish neighbourhoods.
That said, if I were an Israeli Jew, I'd want to live next to a Muslim Arab. Presumably the safest place to be in that country. Then again, if I was an Israeli Jew, I'd emigrate. Segregation may not be official policy, but it's none the less a fact. I'd feel dirty calling such a place my home.
since you AREN"T israeli jewish, I can't take that as serious statement. infact seperated areas or neighbourhoods for different races or religions developed naturally all over the western world, so this is bad claim about israel so called "racism". mainly because there are NO laws restriced people to few areas.

it all depend in the question: do the jewish state need to be judged by the same standarts of other states, or not.Isn't it more a question of whether other nations needs to be condemned in the same thread as Israel?

Zionism.. Well, the meaning of that seems to be a wholly individual thing. For some, it's old-school Jews & Zion über alles. For others, it seems to be a fairly moderatte belief that the state of Israel has a right to exist unharmed (which I completely agree with).

The religious bullshit belief that Jews are the chosen people, is racist as hell.

That said, if I were an Israeli Jew, I'd want to live next to a Muslim Arab. Presumably the safest place to be in that country. Then again, if I was an Israeli Jew, I'd emigrate. Segregation may not be official policy, but it's none the less a fact. I'd feel dirty calling such a place my home.

You might be surprised. Arabs have no problem killing themselves as well. The Institute for Counter-Terrorism has statistics here from 2000 to 2005 (http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm) that document the number of civilian Palestinians killed. Out of around 3000, 1000 were non-combatants. Out of that 1000, 400 were killed by Palestinians. Thus, out of the "innocents" killed in the Arab-Israeli conflict about half are actually killed by Arabs, not Palestinians.

Don't think they would avoid a suicide bombing on your falafel stand just because its a place where Arab migrant workers love to eat, or an attack on your apartment because its populated with Arabs. Attacks are completely indiscriminate against both sides when it comes to Palestinian terror.

The religious bullshit belief that Jews are the chosen people, is racist as hell.

Since it has nothing to do with being chosen because of race, how is it racist?

And, if you read the various midrash regarding it, it isn't that Jews are the "chosen race", but a nation who chose the Torah. Any person who chooses the Torah and converts is just as "chosen" as someone who is born from a Jewish mother. How is this more racist than, say, Christians claiming they are the saved ones?

The fact is, it isn't a race issue, but a religion issue.

those are religious jews and muslims. by the bible, they believe secular jewish (or other stream of them) are sub-human.

I'll agree with you that there are some of the far-right religious that hold beliefs in that respect. There are probably far more of us that are religious and don't believe that Goyim are sub-human, though. People being sub-human, Jew or Goy, isn't a Torah teaching.

those are religious jews and muslims. by the bible, they believe secular jewish (or other stream of them) are sub-human. taking them for example is nonsense.I wasn't in any way implying that all Israeli Jews are orthodox reactionaries. Sadly, they do exist. Fortunately, there's not that many of them.the reason is mainly securityI know. If orthodox Muslims bombed the hell out of my city every few months, I wouldn't be very fond of them either. Still, it's a fine line. When does prejudice become a sensible precaution?
I've chased a few neo-Nazis out of the neighbourhood, because their ideology is lifethreatning to me. I understand the dilemma better than you may think. After all, there's very little difference between getting shot or getting beaten to death by ten people with Rottweilers & clubs.btw, there are areas mixed by jewish and arabs as haifa and the north. I know.mainly because there are NO laws restriced people to few areas.If you cannot take my opinion seriously because I'm not an Israeli citizen, then feel free to ignore my posts. But don't expect me to ask your permission before I express myself.

I already said the segregation isn't policy, but I fail to see the point of denying its existence. Muslim Arabs from the immediate region is only marginally less represented in my society, yet here they make up for less than 1% of the citizens. That's far from true in Israel.

Hell, this country's struggeling with institutionalised racism & has been since the 70s. That doesn't mean it isn't far, far more extreme in Israel, or that mine is a society of saints.

Don't be paranoid. It gets in the way of constructive debate.

You might be surprised.It was intended to be a humorous response, but yea. You didn surprise me a little. I thought the number was half that. Shows how much I know...

Since it has nothing to do with being chosen because of race, how is it racist?I'm not a Torah scholar, but I distinctly remember the "chosen few" being used to mean the peoples that left egypt.

Since race is a definition used to describe a particular cultural or geographical demigraphic (rather than biological differences), it would yet again seem that the racist part is in the eye of the beholder. Either way, it's bullshit prejudice, whether it be Jewish Supremacist wank or religious prejudice. Same difference.

I'm not a Torah scholar, but I distinctly remember the "chosen few" being used to mean the peoples that left egypt.

Since race is a definition used to describe a particular cultural or geographical demigraphic (rather than biological differences), it would yet again seem that the racist part is in the eye of the beholder. Either way, it's bullshit prejudice, whether it be Jewish Supremacist wank or religious prejudice. Same difference.

Fair enough. Probably a more accurate word to use is ethnicity than race for cultural and geographical demographics. I think the concept of race is starting to become passe. Thus, ethnocentric could be accurate rather than racist.

Fair enough. Probably a more accurate word to use is ethnicity than race for cultural and geographical demographics. I think the concept of race is starting to become passe. Thus, ethnocentric could be accurate rather than racist.Agreed, on all points. Only problem is nobody understands what you're on about if you call them ethnocentric. And perhaps ethnocentric implies xenophobia or isolationism, rather than actual racism.

But getting back on topic: when does prejudice become a healthy & sensible precaution?

I mentioned boneheads earlier, but it's far more obvious. Boneheads will inevitably try to hurt or kill people like myself. There's no question about it. Israeli Arabs, on the other hand.. Perhaps half of them would like to kick some Jewish ass, and I wager far fewer actually wants them (you?) dead. So when is prejudice a sensible policy? And is it ever excusable?

We are, after all, talking about judging a demographic on the threat from a few.

It is Catholic dogma that the Jews are Gods chosen people and everyone else is a gentile. To say the Jews don't believe this is a bit rich.

israel isn't torture people. it is illegal even in the local laws.
there aren't snipers shoting stone-threwers. we hardly use snipers anyway.
we don't beat mothers or people we meet in the street. if there are few cases of unjustified use of force, the army check himself and take care of the problematic soldiers.
we smash only houses of terrorists families, after the terror atack happened. if sometimes innocent families take harm on their or their houses, it is because this is very crowded area, and it is very hard to decrease the unnecessery harms (although we do all the efforts, even when it may cause israeli harms).
we can't go and arrest everybody. we do arrsests only after good research.
most of this things are more than you can said about other armies, still we get all the attacks. the palastinians had civil war between all of their different organizations, and they kill themselves more than we do. they will make trouble even if we stay out of the land.

You are a liar. A bare faced liar. You should be ashamed.

undercovered antisemitics aren't agree with this claim. that was my main point. I know that big part of the claims are justified or arguable, but still there is big number of antisemitic leftists.
No, there are not many. Most leftists think that Israel should exist in some form, but don't think that it has an absolute right to oppress Palestinians. That's the root of it.

generally, I agree with you. my main point is just that some percent of the leftists hid under the "occuption claim" while their last goal is destruction of the jewish state.
try to remember that even the palastinian official stand want after the end of the occuption, that israel will let the refuges back to their past-homes. that will be the end of the jewish state, but many don't understand it.

Its a small percent. I've never heard anybody argue for the destruction of the Israeli state.....though I have often thought it needs a stiff smack or two around the head to get sense.


without talk about the desert and swamps who was in most of this area before jewish people come back and import modern agricolture and industry (which make many arab from the area to come and search for work)..

Untrue, I'm afraid. Apart from the Citrus market, for which they can justly claim credit.


without tell you that arab leaders convinced most of the israeli arab to run and let the arab armies conquer the land in 1948 (the ones who didn't listen get israeli citizenship with mostly equal rights).)..

Conclusively shown to be otherwise. I don't presume to judge those that did it, given the circumstances, but saying it never occurred is not on.


israel isn't torture people. it is illegal even in the local laws..

emmmm.....They do a lot more than ask questions in a stern tone of voice....


there aren't snipers shoting stone-threwers. we hardly use snipers anyway.
..

Every now and again, a UN worker, Journalist or Palestinian child dies with a round through the head. They're shot by IDF troops, whatever designation they might have.

we don't beat mothers or people we meet in the street. if there are few cases of unjustified use of force, the army check himself and take care of the problematic soldiers...

The checkpoints are notorious spots for abuse...theres a few Israeli organisations that monitor them, should you not believe me.


they will make trouble even if we stay out of the land....

And that would be their problem. Thats the fun and joy of self determination, isn't it?


The Institute for Counter-Terrorism ....

And of course, the fact that its headed by an ex-head of Mossad and essentially funded by the Israeli government has NO FUCKING BEARING ON ITS FINDINGS WHATSOEVER. NOT A FUCKEN ONE..!!!

help me,
who is not racist and why?

Agreed, on all points. Only problem is nobody understands what you're on about if you call them ethnocentric. And perhaps ethnocentric implies xenophobia or isolationism, rather than actual racism.

But getting back on topic: when does prejudice become a healthy & sensible precaution?

I mentioned boneheads earlier, but it's far more obvious. Boneheads will inevitably try to hurt or kill people like myself. There's no question about it. Israeli Arabs, on the other hand.. Perhaps half of them would like to kick some Jewish ass, and I wager far fewer actually wants them (you?) dead. So when is prejudice a sensible policy? And is it ever excusable?

We are, after all, talking about judging a demographic on the threat from a few.
This is an interesting approach. Perhaps it will be used as a cover by racists too but there was a need for a middle definition between our standart nazi racist and the exact opposite of it, one denies existance of ethnicity at all. Its a good definition which I will use from now on on defining some subjects.

Prejudice is a cover for ignorance of other humans being as human as you are and not acceptable at all. All humans must be subjected to personal qualification for countries needs, not generalisation of race and ethnicity. But should bes and must bes doesnt change the fact that there are people who cling on to historical propagandas to preach alienation and war.
Only way to stop it is either international peacekeeping by organisations like UN and NATO but on the broader sense with the help of all goverments in the world. Or one day we will wake up to nuclear hell.

help me,
who is not racist and why?

Sorry, what?

why are you not a rascist?
or why are you choosing for it?
ps:i'm not talking about you

You are a liar. A bare faced liar. You should be ashamed.

I think it safer to say hes misinformed rather than actually lying.

Oh, yeah. Precedent (Red Arrow, MKULTRA) says that starting threads by quoting news and doing nothing else isn't halal--generally trollish, especially since we're talking about racism here--and therefore this thread is to be locked. 2705, you're on notice.

So as it is typed, so shall it be done.