NationStates Jolt Archive

You gathered as much... which, what I said about Sarah McLachlan, or what I said about Illari? Heh, I'd like to see you try to test what I'm saying about Illari...
What you said respectively about those two songs.

And I shall. It is a matter of personal preference, you know.;)

Well, I'm Jewish, so I hate idolatry. However, I'm also American, so I respect your right to freedom of religion. Though on that poll, change my answer to "People have the right to worship what they want... but they're getting a couple extra months in Gehenna for it"

I'll tell you this, though - I prefer modern pagans to the old ones. Human sacrifice... bleeh.

And we don't talk about the Aztecs because THE SPANISH WIPED THEM OUT.

Oh, and there are 613 mitzvot in the Torah, not 316. You got the number backwards.

And Judaism does not claim to be "long-lost lore". The Torah itself states that "The Torah will never be forgotten." Judaism claims to be an unbroken religious culture stretching back for thousands of years. True, we've taken some blows (10 tribes lost to the Assyrians, temple destroyed TWICE, oral tradition nearly broken by the Romans, majority of European Jewry slaughtered in the Holocaust, Madonna perverting Kabbalah), but we've survived.

How about a BRIEF overview of Jewish history, based just on location:

Began in Canaan (modern-day Israel/Palestine) w/Abraham
Moved to Egypt during famine. Enslaved there.
Freed by G-d & Moses. Moved to Sinai Desert via Red Sea.
Recieved Torah at Mt. Sinai (THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL EVENT IN JEWISH HISTORY)
Condemned to walking in the desert for 40 years. 40 years later, enter & conquer Canaan.
Following Solomon's death, split into Israel (tribes of Rueben, Simon, Naphtali, Issachar, Asher, Dan, Zebulun, Gad, Ephraim, Menashe) and Judea (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi). Israel conquered by Assyrians. Ten Tribes dispersed.
Judea conquered by Babylonians. First Temple destroyed. Ark o/ Covenant lost. Exiled to Babylon.
70 years later, following Persian conquest of Babylonia, Jews return to Israel, build Second Temple.
Greeks conquer Persia, Israel included. Combining sheer luck with Roman aid, Israel overthrows Greek rule. Israel now client state of Rome.
Caligula provokes rebellion. Second Temple destroyed. Jews spread throughout Europe, Africa, and Asia.
Americas rediscovered by Columbus. Many Jews move there.
Holocaust in Europe. European Jewry destroyed (save Britain and Russia).
State of Israel established.
TODAY: Main centers of Jewry are USA and Israel.

Usually a derivative of what I said. They think form should determine essence. Therefore, by their logic, the form must be the essence.
I meant people whose thinking never gets as far as wondering about essence. The sort of people who think eating a cracker in a church gets you in touch with a god, or carrying a certain color stone in your pocket will sort your life out for you, without you having to do anything else about it. I was being cynical. I saw in a new age shop once a display of "crystals" with little cards describing all their "mystical properties." My personal favorite was a stone (don't remember which one, sadly) that had the mystical property of "promoting rational thought and critical judgment."

My second favorite was the card that told me diamonds can reduce stress. It's true, they can, if they're big enough.

Well, Gardner has a rule over it because he created it. If you read his works, he was very clear and explict with the rules regarding Wicca as well. Being a modern religion, he was probably more clear than most ancient religions.

Just like if you created a religion, you would have a rule over it. It would be perfectly valid to call anyone who distorted it or ripped off the name, but threw everything else out, not a member of that religion.


Gardner did not completely create Wicca. He did a study of Witchcraft and wrote a book on what he felt the religion entailed. This does not make his version, or his studies for that matter, the entire religion as many people seem to think.

And why is it that we need to have a thread on this? As a practicing Wiccan I find it offencive that we need to open my religion to debate merely because some people do not agree with it. Should we open a thread on the morality of Christianity and other 'major acceptable' religions to be fair?

Somehow I think several of you would get angery if your faith was open to debate and ridicule in an open internet thread created solely for this purpose.

And for those of you who are brining up human sacrafice as a part of paganism and wicca, the first rule of Wicca is harm none and do as you will.

Next time research.

Somehow I think several of you would get angery if your faith was open to debate and ridicule in an open internet thread created solely for this purpose.

And for those of you who are brining up human sacrafice as a part of paganism and wicca, the first rule of Wicca is harm none and do as you will.


It doesn't bother me one bit. I am a practicing (neo)pagan. It doesn't bother me if people want to discuss religion, even if it involves my own in specific religion. I realize that some think it's stupid and that's ok. In some cases I can see their point. What good is your faith if you can't debate it? Expand? Learn something new? You should always question yourself, your faith, everything. If you become certain then you will learn nothing at all. Besides it's interesting to see what others think.

In regards to human sacrifice, its probably safe to say that no one agrees with it anymore but remember we are talking about paganism not just Wicca and not everyone follows the rede.

It doesn't bother me one bit. I am a practicing (neo)pagan. It doesn't bother me if people want to discuss religion, even if it involves my own in specific religion. I realize that some think it's stupid and that's ok. In some cases I can see their point. What good is your faith if you can't debate it? Expand? Learn something new? You should always question yourself, your faith, everything. If you become certain then you will learn nothing at all. Besides it's interesting to see what others think.

In regards to human sacrifice, its probably safe to say that no one agrees with it anymore but remember we are talking about paganism not just Wicca and not everyone follows the rede.


I can understand why some would feel that Wicca is a stupid faith to follow, and debates do not bother me provided that they are intelligent and those people making the comments can say more then the simple "That is stupid, this is the only way to go."

Normally it is interesting to see what other people think, but it is irritating when you see something normally written in internet slang saying that we are going to hell and that we are a bunch of satan worshipers. And nearly as bad are those who paint us all as either goths or tree hugging hippies. It would be nice to see people go and actually do a bit of research and give us that much respect before telling me that I am going to hell.

And proper english wouldn't hurt either.

I haven't really seen a whole lot of those kind of posts in this thread. There are a few if I remember correctly but this is NS General. A few would be expected. This thread is a lot better then it could have been.
Yeah, so some people think we are going to Hell, let them think it. It comforts them. (I don't mean that they like the fact that we will suffer forever, more that they are happy in their mind set and belief. They are allowed to think whatever they want, so let them be, because they are doing no real harm to you.)

Undoubtably this forum is better then it could be, however it has a long way to go. And from what I read few people here have actually looked into Wicca outside of Gardner. He was neither the first nor the last to publish or pass down a version of the Craft. Yet suddenly he is the only authority on Wicca It is irratating.

Paganism?

I've got nothing against the religion. However, the neopagans I know are a bunch of bitchy "I'm better than you because I'm magic," assholes.

But I tend to agree with the ideas of many gods, just makes more sense.

Then again, we wouldn't want to see people groveling towards the stove saying "The stove worked again! All hail the stove gods!":D

I meant people whose thinking never gets as far as wondering about essence. The sort of people who think eating a cracker in a church gets you in touch with a god, or carrying a certain color stone in your pocket will sort your life out for you, without you having to do anything else about it. I was being cynical. I saw in a new age shop once a display of "crystals" with little cards describing all their "mystical properties." My personal favorite was a stone (don't remember which one, sadly) that had the mystical property of "promoting rational thought and critical judgment."

My second favorite was the card that told me diamonds can reduce stress. It's true, they can, if they're big enough.
I was hoping you wouldn't mention people so incredibly superficial. Those are the absolute worst but also the most numerous, I fear.

What's your view on paganism? Do you think that neo-pagans like Wiccans are just plain satanic, and that the Christians did us a favour by wiping out all of the original European pagan religions? Or do you think that pagan religions are just as good, if not better, than Abrahamic religions?

Personally I think that a whole bunch of gods who make themselves known throughout our daily lives in little ways (or big ways such as earthquakes) makes more sense than one all powerful, all knowing dude and his son who turns water into wine and wrote the Da Vinci Code. But that's just my opinion.

What's your view?


Pretty ridiculous.

Pretty ridiculous.
Your view is pretty ridiculous?:p

Paganism?

I've got nothing against the religion. However, the neopagans I know are a bunch of bitchy "I'm better than you because I'm magic," assholes.

But I tend to agree with the ideas of many gods, just makes more sense.

Then again, we wouldn't want to see people groveling towards the stove saying "The stove worked again! All hail the stove gods!":D
You will regret dissing the stove gods, my friend. :p

I was hoping you wouldn't mention people so incredibly superficial. Those are the absolute worst but also the most numerous, I fear.
I know, it's kind of like standing in a gravel parking lot and saying, "Look at all this gravel lying all over the place," but sometimes I just feel the need to mention.

I wouldn't call myself a pagan, but I do have a keen interest in mythology.

I'm agnostic, but I firmly believe that people should be able to worship however they want.

Some good friends of mine are neo-pagans, and I find them among the best informed people on matters of spirituality that I've ever met.

In short, believe what you want, just don't try and shove it down my throat...

I know, it's kind of like standing in a gravel parking lot and saying, "Look at all this gravel lying all over the place," but sometimes I just feel the need to mention.
Yeah, I wish you hadn't, but I understand. Now I need someone to pull me out of the depression into which you just threw me head first.
*looks around for someone qualified*

Your view is pretty ridiculous?:p
"Personally I think that a whole bunch of gods who make themselves known throughout our daily lives in little ways (or big ways such as earthquakes)"

How isnt this ridiculous?

Its not 1155 AD, there is no excuse for this kind of thing.

"Personally I think that a whole bunch of gods who make themselves known throughout our daily lives in little ways (or big ways such as earthquakes)"

How isnt this ridiculous?

Its not 1155 AD, there is no excuse for this kind of thing.
Do you apply this incredibly dismissive attitude to all religious beliefs?

"Personally I think that a whole bunch of gods who make themselves known throughout our daily lives in little ways (or big ways such as earthquakes)"

How isnt this ridiculous?

Its not 1155 AD, there is no excuse for this kind of thing.
:eek: You completely managed to destroy my mood.:eek:

Yeah, I wish you hadn't, but I understand. Now I need someone to pull me out of the depression into which you just threw me head first.
*looks around for someone qualified*
My work here is done. Good luck finding that someone. :p :D

Do you apply this incredibly dismissive attitude to all religious beliefs?
*munches popcorn*

:eek: You completely managed to destroy my mood.:eek:
What, you mean HE pulled you out of that depression I threw you into head first? Dammit, I've got to make those depressions deeper.

*munches popcorn*
It won't be any fun if he says yes.

My work here is done. Good luck finding that someone. :p :D
I figured. That's why I set that trap. Your teasing did the job just fine.:D

It won't be any fun if he says yes.
Fun, no. Funny, yes.:p

I figured. That's why I set that trap. Your teasing did the job just fine.:D
All part of the service. :fluffle:







Wait, does that imply................ Nah. Carry on. :D

Do you apply this incredibly dismissive attitude to all religious beliefs?

More or less

What, you mean HE pulled you out of that depression I threw you into head first? Dammit, I've got to make those depressions deeper.
No, he killed the other mood I was in. Not the depression.

All part of the service. :fluffle:







Wait, does that imply................ Nah. Carry on. :D
LOL:fluffle:

I couldn't tell you what it implys. I have no idea what I mean at any given moment.:D

More or less
I don't think I've ever been quite so wrong. Not funny at all. Now I'm depressed again.
*runs crying to Muravyets*

Well as a Buddhist I find the worship of any god unproductive... But our general policy on other faiths is that as long as they aren't hurting anyone and they encourage moral behaviour amoung their followers - live and let be. Ultimately, any faith can be a road to enlightenment.

I don't really see them as being any different to the Abrahamic faiths, except for minor numerical differences regarding deities

Well as a Buddhist I find the worship of any god unproductive... But our general policy on other faiths is that as long as they aren't hurting anyone and they encourage moral behaviour amoung their followers - live and let be. Ultimately, any faith can be a road to enlightenment.

I don't really see them as being any different to the Abrahamic faiths, except for minor numerical differences regarding deities
Is that limited to overt forms of harm?

I don't think I've ever been quite so wrong. Not funny at all. Now I'm depressed again.
*runs crying to Muravyets*
See? Told you. *pats FD on the head in perfunctory manner* Don't let the dull snob upset you, dear. There will be other targets.

hmmmmm good question.

Yes, I suppose there are many subtle ways a faith can harm someone, though I would generally put the instances of faiths harming people down to irresponsible or ignorant followers, rather than the faith itself.

If i consider a faith to be psychologically damging I hold harsher opinions of it even if it is mostly peaceful - That is my personal take on it rather than the official "buddhist line"

Well as a Buddhist I find the worship of any god unproductive... But our general policy on other faiths is that as long as they aren't hurting anyone and they encourage moral behaviour amoung their followers - live and let be. Ultimately, any faith can be a road to enlightenment.

I don't really see them as being any different to the Abrahamic faiths, except for minor numerical differences regarding deities
How do you determine they aren't hurting anyone and that the behavior they encourage is moral? And what is the general policy of Buddhism if they don't meet the OK criteria?


Note: I was under the impression that the general policy of Buddhism in both cases was pretty much to take no action, except, if the other religion are asshats, you might avoid socializing with them.

See? Told you. *pats FD on the head in perfunctory manner* Don't let the dull snob upset you, dear. There will be other targets.
*sniffle*
But usually if they say yes, they don't mean it....No one's supposed to mean it....It just doesn't make sense....

You think I have trouble finding targets!? See the post count? Over 4000 of those were spent on targets.:D You clearly do not know my reputation (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11179546&postcount=2604). :p

Whether or not someone is causing harm can only be determined by the individual, regardless of your faith or creed.

Buddhism encourages it's followers to speak up when we perceive something to be immoral, though i'm not aware of any Buddhists who would take more extreme approaches against harmful beliefs, most will openly debate and criticise dangerous beliefs.

For example, you could expect Buddhists to oppose people attempting to establish a theocracy by actively engaging in the political process and opposing them.
We are forbidden from violence though so all action on our parts has to be non-violent

hmmmmm good question.

Yes, I suppose there are many subtle ways a faith can harm someone, though I would generally put the instances of faiths harming people down to irresponsible or ignorant followers, rather than the faith itself.

If i consider a faith to be psychologically damging I hold harsher opinions of it even if it is mostly peaceful - That is my personal take on it rather than the official "buddhist line"
I know it was a good question. I thought of it in a humble moment.:D Never fear, it has passed.;) All seriousness aside, I think sometimes misplaced faith limits the growth of an individual, which limits him to ignorance and irresponsibility. Organized faith tends to have this effect, for those followers tend to rely on each other for spirituality, but none of them have found anything to share because they're too busy looking to each other, not spirituality itself.

Whether or not someone is causing harm can only be determined by the individual, regardless of your faith or creed.

Buddhism encourages it's followers to speak up when we perceive something to be immoral, though i'm not aware of any Buddhists who would take more extreme approaches against harmful beliefs, most will openly debate and criticise dangerous beliefs.

For example, you could expect Buddhists to oppose people attempting to establish a theocracy by actively engaging in the political process and opposing them.
We are forbidden from violence though so all action on our parts has to be non-violent
Which is why buddhists won't take more extreme methods. It seems to me that Buddhism tries to stay in the middle, taking neither extreme. Whereas, I tend to take both extremes. The thing about taking the calm, middle approach is that it tends to patronize people more. They become angry and irrational.

*sniffle*
But usually if they say yes, they don't mean it....No one's supposed to mean it....It just doesn't make sense....
I just can't stand to see you cry. Good thing I can't see you, huh? Hahaha-heh. *ahem* :p

You think I have trouble finding targets!? See the post count? Over 4000 of those were spent on targets.:D You clearly do not know my reputation (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11179546&postcount=2604). :p
And the remaining 500+ were accidental double posts, right?

Whether or not someone is causing harm can only be determined by the individual, regardless of your faith or creed.

Buddhism encourages it's followers to speak up when we perceive something to be immoral, though i'm not aware of any Buddhists who would take more extreme approaches against harmful beliefs, most will openly debate and criticise dangerous beliefs.

For example, you could expect Buddhists to oppose people attempting to establish a theocracy by actively engaging in the political process and opposing them.
We are forbidden from violence though so all action on our parts has to be non-violent
So I was right then, in general, about the general policy. You wouldn't actually "do anything" about a religion you didn't like other than to speak your mind and support a principle of fair play for all, which you would do in regard to a religion you did like, too.

I just can't stand to see you cry. Good thing I can't see you, huh? Hahaha-heh. *ahem* :p
You've done it again!:D You fall for that trap every time. And yes, it is good you can't see me. Then we'd both be embarassed....

And the remaining 500+ were accidental double posts, right?
Eh, well, I think about a hundred of them were, yes. The others were stretched out over a long period. And it wasn't 500+ yet. It's probably about 350 by now. The rest were all spent on targets. Spam all. You understand.;)

Forgive me for coming in late, eh? But we tend to believe that since there is no power over us but ourselves, that the rules tend to favor us (we make them). The only thing that governs our actions is the potentially twisted mind in our own head.

Therefore, let us think of the world as our oyster. Let the others flail looking for meaning while we see truth as it is meant.

It all is as it is, no extraneous meaning, just basic, dirty reality. Raise your glass to the amazing Salt, and salute reality.

Forgive me for coming in late, eh? But we tend to believe that since there is no power over us but ourselves, that the rules tend to favor us (we make them). The only thing that governs our actions is the potentially twisted mind in our own head.

Therefore, let us think of the world as our oyster. Let the others flail looking for meaning while we see truth as it is meant.

It all is as it is, no extraneous meaning, just basic, dirty reality. Raise your glass to the amazing Salt, and salute reality.
*tosses drink in face*

*Sprinkles a little Salt*

I think it's a bit silly, but I'm not going to stop anyone from doing whatever it is that makes them feel alright. Unless it involves something that makes me feel considerably less than alright.

I think it's a bit silly, but I'm not going to stop anyone from doing whatever it is that makes them feel alright. Unless it involves something that makes me feel considerably less than alright.
Such as....?

(Toss us a bone, man. We're supposed to be discussing things here.)

Such as....?

(Toss us a bone, man. We're supposed to be discussing things here.)
Are you sure you want to know? He might disappoint you....

Are you sure you want to know? He might disappoint you....
Yeah, you're right. Forget I asked.

Yeah, you're right. Forget I asked.
Atta girl.;)

My second favorite was the card that told me diamonds can reduce stress. It's true, they can, if they're big enough.

because they ensure you have finacial security?

because they ensure you have finacial security?
You caught right on to that one. They say the Hope Diamond is cursed, but, brother, I'd be willing to risk it for the sake of stress reduction. I have to think of my health, you know.

You caught right on to that one. They say the Hope Diamond is cursed, but, brother, I'd be willing to risk it for the sake of stress reduction. I have to think of my health, you know.
As Ron White says about the topic: "Diamonds: that'll shut 'er up.":D

As Ron White says about the topic: "Diamonds: that'll shut 'er up.":D
Coinkidink!! Someone else just called me to tell me that joke of his not an hour ago. :D

Coinkidink!! Someone else just called me to tell me that joke of his not an hour ago. :D
LMAO I suppose I really do have good timing when it doesn't matter.:cool: :p

My teacher had a pagan workshop for the class. Some fundie kid wanted to do something on Jesus but the teacher said it would violate the Constitution. It's better anyway, paganism is based on the sun, the moon and on our earth mother, Gaia. We also need to make sure that corporations aren't allowed to damage Gaia and cause global warming.

Global warming is a serious problem and only pagans have any sense of protecting our mother Gaia. In fact, when I hear about people driving cars I get sad and cry for Gaia. I hate the United States so much, I wish I wasn't born here.

My teacher had a pagan workshop for the class. Some fundie kid wanted to do something on Jesus but the teacher said it would violate the Constitution. It's better anyway, paganism is based on the sun, the moon and on our earth mother, Gaia. We also need to make sure that corporations aren't allowed to damage Gaia and cause global warming.

Global warming is a serious problem and only pagans have any sense of protecting our mother Gaia. In fact, when I hear about people driving cars I get sad and cry for Gaia. I hate the United States so much, I wish I wasn't born here.
Wait...huh? Why are you having pagan workshops in school? Why does your teacher think a Jesus thing would be unconstitutional, but a pagan workshop isn't? I'm assuming your teacher was thinking of the separation of church and state, and the fundie kid's thing was religious -- but paganism is a religion, too. Doesn't your teacher know that?

Oh, yes, btw, yay Gaia and boo cars.

Oh, yes, btw, yay Gaia and boo cars.

Thank you Muravyets. I'm pretty sure paganism isn't a religion because it's mostly about the actual Earth and religion is about fairy tales.

Wait...huh? Why are you having pagan workshops in school? Why does your teacher think a Jesus thing would be unconstitutional, but a pagan workshop isn't? I'm assuming your teacher was thinking of the separation of church and state, and the fundie kid's thing was religious -- but paganism is a religion, too. Doesn't your teacher know that?

Oh, yes, btw, yay Gaia and boo cars.
Teacher logic never makes sense.:rolleyes: Unless your teacher is the wisest man alive.:p

Ah, yes, prayers and tears for Gaia. Well, prayers anyway. And death to currently modern cars.

Thank you Muravyets. I'm pretty sure paganism isn't a religion because it's mostly about the actual Earth and religion is about fairy tales.
Uh-huh. Yeah. Um... "Religion" is a term used to describe a certain kind of activity and/or organization. It is a real thing, whether one believes in its stories or not.

Go to:
http://www.religioustolerance.org

When you get there, search for "pagan," "neo-pagan" and/or "wicca."

Try to consider that it doesn't do pagans any favors to pretend that their religion isn't a religion.

Teacher logic never makes sense.:rolleyes: Unless you're teacher is the wisest man alive.:p

Ah, yes, prayers and tears for Gaia. Well, prayers anyway. And death to currently modern cars.
Ugh, I swear, I mean, honestly. Every good thing (encouraging environmental awareness) always comes tangled up with one or two bad things (assuming some people's religion isn't really a religion). I can hardly keep up.

*sigh* Every silver lining has a cloud.

Ugh, I swear, I mean, honestly. Every good thing (encouraging environmental awareness) always comes tangled up with one or two bad things (assuming some people's religion isn't really a religion). I can hardly keep up.

*sigh* Every silver lining has a cloud.
LOL Sorry, can't help you with that. I prefer clouds to silver anyway.:p

Ugh, I swear, I mean, honestly. Every good thing (encouraging environmental awareness) always comes tangled up with one or two bad things (assuming some people's religion isn't really a religion). I can hardly keep up.

*sigh* Every silver lining has a cloud.

No Muravyets, I don't mean to insult Paganism. It's just that it's actually true so it's not a religion that the government needs to protect us from, like Christianity. I believe pagans are the most knowledgable, and I hope you don't feel insulted, because I care about Gaia and so do you.

No Muravyets, I don't mean to insult Paganism. It's just that it's actually true so it's not a religion that the government needs to protect us from, like Christianity. I believe pagans are the most knowledgable, and I hope you don't feel insulted, because I care about Gaia and so do you.
*munches popcorn*

*munches popcorn*
I hope you brought enough for everyone. ;)

Do you think that neo-pagans like Wiccans are just plain satanic

Oy! Satanism is nothing like paganism

No Muravyets, I don't mean to insult Paganism. It's just that it's actually true so it's not a religion that the government needs to protect us from, like Christianity. I believe pagans are the most knowledgable, and I hope you don't feel insulted, because I care about Gaia and so do you.
Honey, sweetie, darling, angel, my dear, :), please let me explain two things to you.

1. THE PROBLEM WITH DECLARING A BELIEF TO BE TRUE:

You do not KNOW that any pagan beliefs are true. You BELIEVE them to be true. You do not KNOW it.

Pagans believe in various gods and spirits. There is no way either to prove or disprove whether or not such gods and spirits actually exist. Just like there is no way either to prove or disprove whether or not the monotheist "God of Abraham" actually exists. Also, seriously now, there is no way to either prove or disprove that there is such an entity as Gaia -- as defined by Gaia philosophy, i.e. a living entity or soul of the planet.

Gaia is your BELIEF. I will venture to guess that you adhere to this belief because it harmonizes with your own inner experiences based on your observations of life filtered through your own personal thought processes. I'm guessing that because that is why I am an animist. I believe, rather fervently it seems, that the entire universe and everything in it is invested with a soul and is capable of consciousness, in some sense of the word, at least. But I fully realize that I cannot PROVE this to anyone, INCLUDING MYSELF. This is the distinction between knowledge and belief. I believe souls exist. I don't know that souls exist.

You believe in Gaia. You do not know that your concept of Gaia accurately describes reality.

2. THE PROBLEM WITH DECLARING ANOTHER BELIEF TO BE FALSE:

Since there is no way either to prove or disprove any spirituality-based belief, any declaration that any set of beliefs is inherently false, must be unfounded and, itself, unprovable. You may try to debunk them by showing the ways in which they appear to be false or the ways in which their proponents fail to prove them, but you cannot actually disprove them yourself. So it is basically inappropriate to say that paganism is true, while "religions" are false and that's why they can't even be put in the same category. Essentially, by doing that, you are engaging in one of the most offensive behaviors of the very religions you denounce.

I would also point out that your description of "religion" as something the government needs to protect people from implies a bias against organized religion so great that it is warping your concept of the very word "religion" itself. I happen also to be biased against organized religion, but I do not single any one kind of religion out for condemnation over all others, and I do not allow my bias against any group to warp my use of the English language. That is just too Orwellian for me. "Religion" has a set of standard meanings, and according to them, paganism is a religion (or, rather a set of religions). I would much rather reclaim the word "religion" by applying it, properly, to things that are not negative, than to play a negative game of labeling which is usually favored by the kinds of bigots I despise.

The bottom line is, you don't want to call paganism a religion because you associate the word "religion" with negative things, and you do not want to associate your own beliefs with those negative things in any way. But you're going to have to learn to cope with it, C&T, because the language is the language, and facts are facts, and pagans have a legitimate interest in being recognized legally as a set of religions. I think you would do better to acknowledge openly that your discomfort with "religion" is based on a personal bias, and to acknowledge that your personal baises do not necessarily reflect general reality.

I hope you brought enough for everyone. ;)
Eh, I brought enough to share with you. If you're not too busy putting on the show I anticipated.;)

Honey, sweetie, darling, angel, my dear, :), please let me explain two things to you.

1. THE PROBLEM WITH DECLARING A BELIEF TO BE TRUE:

You do not KNOW that any pagan beliefs are true. You BELIEVE them to be true. You do not KNOW it.

Pagans believe in various gods and spirits. There is no way either to prove or disprove whether or not such gods and spirits actually exist. Just like there is no way either to prove or disprove whether or not the monotheist "God of Abraham" actually exists. Also, seriously now, there is no way to either prove or disprove that there is such an entity as Gaia -- as defined by Gaia philosophy, i.e. a living entity or soul of the planet.

Gaia is your BELIEF. I will venture to guess that you adhere to this belief because it harmonizes with your own inner experiences based on your observations of life filtered through your own personal thought processes. I'm guessing that because that is why I am an animist. I believe, rather fervently it seems, that the entire universe and everything in it is invested with a soul and is capable of consciousness, in some sense of the word, at least. But I fully realize that I cannot PROVE this to anyone, INCLUDING MYSELF. This is the distinction between knowledge and belief. I believe souls exist. I don't know that souls exist.

You believe in Gaia. You do not know that your concept of Gaia accurately describes reality.

2. THE PROBLEM WITH DECLARING ANOTHER BELIEF TO BE FALSE:

Since there is no way either to prove or disprove any spirituality-based belief, any declaration that any set of beliefs is inherently false, must be unfounded and, itself, unprovable. You may try to debunk them by showing the ways in which they appear to be false or the ways in which their proponents fail to prove them, but you cannot actually disprove them yourself. So it is basically inappropriate to say that paganism is true, while "religions" are false and that's why they can't even be put in the same category. Essentially, by doing that, you are engaging in one of the most offensive behaviors of the very religions you denounce.

I would also point out that your description of "religion" as something the government needs to protect people from implies a bias against organized religion so great that it is warping your concept of the very word "religion" itself. I happen also to be biased against organized religion, but I do not single any one kind of religion out for condemnation over all others, and I do not allow my bias against any group to warp my use of the English language. That is just too Orwellian for me. "Religion" has a set of standard meanings, and according to them, paganism is a religion (or, rather a set of religions). I would much rather reclaim the word "religion" by applying it, properly, to things that are not negative, than to play a negative game of labeling which is usually favored by the kinds of bigots I despise.

The bottom line is, you don't want to call paganism a religion because you associate the word "religion" with negative things, and you do not want to associate your own beliefs with those negative things in any way. But you're going to have to learn to cope with it, C&T, because the language is the language, and facts are facts, and pagans have a legitimate interest in being recognized legally as a set of religions. I think you would do better to acknowledge openly that your discomfort with "religion" is based on a personal bias, and to acknowledge that your personal baises do not necessarily reflect general reality.
Are you sure you won't marry me?;)
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