NationStates Jolt Archive

A volunteer group places water containers marked with blue flags (for better visibility) in the desert along the US-Mexican border.

Other people come along and either dump the containers, or shoot holes in them, to prevent the water from being available.

Theoretically, if someone crossing the desert was dehydrated sufficiently, they might reach such an empty site and die trying to reach the next one.

So, would you consider such sabotage to be an act of manslaughter?

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5030576

I'd say so

Yep, killing a water source in a desert has got to be a big no no.

A volunteer group places water containers marked with blue flags (for better visibility) in the desert along the US-Mexican border.

Other people come along and either dump the containers, or shoot holes in them, to prevent the water from being available.

Theoretically, if someone crossing the desert was dehydrated sufficiently, they might reach such an empty site and die trying to reach the next one.

So, would you consider such sabotage to be an act of manslaughter?
Yes.

hell of yes.

A volunteer group places water containers marked with blue flags (for better visibility) in the desert along the US-Mexican border.

Other people come along and either dump the containers, or shoot holes in them, to prevent the water from being available.

Theoretically, if someone crossing the desert was dehydrated sufficiently, they might reach such an empty site and die trying to reach the next one.

So, would you consider such sabotage to be an act of manslaughter?

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5030576
yep

Theyre tryign to make all the Mexicans thristy

Yep. Doesn't matter if they're for illegal immigrants; a lost tourist/border guard/person might need it just as badly and die as a result. This is just sick; they may be illegal immigrants but they're still human.

they may be illegal immigrants but they're still human.

indeed

Yep. Doesn't matter if they're for illegal immigrants; a lost tourist/border guard/person might need it just as badly and die as a result. This is just sick; they may be illegal immigrants but they're still human.
true, in a way, the could be sabotaging the same guards who are trying to keep immigrants out

they may be illegal immigrants but they're still human.
I thought they were some kind of untermensch troglodytes!

A rethink is in order. [/sarcasm]

Depends where they are placing it.

If the water stations are on private property they cannot or should not be touched. However, if they are in public locations, placed for the explicit purpose of aiding the criminal act of illegal immigration, then whatever happens to those stations is not the responsibility the person dismantling it.

It would be akin to a citizen shooting out the tires of a getaway car. If they want to be Americans, then they should apply legally.

untermensch troglodytes!

?

Depends where they are placing it.

If the water stations are on private property they cannot or should not be touched. However, if they are in public locations, placed for the explicit purpose of aiding the criminal act of illegal immigration, then whatever happens to those stations is not the responsibility the person dismantling it.

It would be akin to a citizen shooting out the tires of a getaway car. If they want to be Americans, then they should apply legally.

Here in Virginia, we're pretty loose on who civilians can shoot at.

Shooting at a getaway car's tires is not permitted in Virginia. It's only permissible to use deadly force in the event that you're witnessing a violent felony (murder) and have reason to believe that you or someone in the immediate vicinity is next.

Crossing the border on foot to find work as a fruit picker or day laborer isn't a violent felony, nor does it place anyone else's life at risk (or even threatened risk).

to answer your question simply. yes.

but the problem i have is that the volunteer group is aiding illegal activity by placing the water there. So i also lean towards no because the water wasn't originally there to begin w/, but placed there by human hands. So illegals shouldn't have a dependancy on them.

(would be funny tho, use those to trap illegals)

No, placing the water in a felony (conspiracy to commit unlawful entry into the US) Shooting the bottles is vandalism or littering, pouring them out no crime.




A volunteer group places water containers marked with blue flags (for better visibility) in the desert along the US-Mexican border.

Other people come along and either dump the containers, or shoot holes in them, to prevent the water from being available.

Theoretically, if someone crossing the desert was dehydrated sufficiently, they might reach such an empty site and die trying to reach the next one.

So, would you consider such sabotage to be an act of manslaughter?

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5030576

?
Sarcasm.

No, placing the water in a felony (conspiracy to commit unlawful entry into the US) Shooting the bottles is vandalism or littering, pouring them out no crime.
And if, for instance, you were to pour them out in sight of Mexican dying of dehydration? Because it doesn't seem too much of a leap from deliberately dumping the water knowing that it will cause someone's death and doing so knowing that there is a good chance it might.

Here in Virginia, we're pretty loose on who civilians can shoot at.

Shooting at a getaway car's tires is not permitted in Virginia. It's only permissible to use deadly force in the event that you're witnessing a violent felony (murder) and have reason to believe that you or someone in the immediate vicinity is next.

Crossing the border on foot to find work as a fruit picker or day laborer isn't a violent felony, nor does it place anyone else's life at risk (or even threatened risk).

Okay, replace shooting with slashing. And let's say the getaway driver is aiding a money launderer. I'd still say the citizen is right is preventing escape of a criminal, whether or not the "method" of doing so is illegal here in Virginia. Vandalizing a criminal enterprise would hardly be frowned upon, even if unofficially, here in the Commonwealth.

I could care less about what a Mexican immigrant is going to do, violent or not, or what his story is. He has no right to be here, as defined by US law. Therefore, I'd say, as long as we aren't trying to shoot at them...well, if nature does them in, not my fault. Maybe they should carry a canteen.

No, placing the water in a felony (conspiracy to commit unlawful entry into the US) Shooting the bottles is vandalism or littering, pouring them out no crime.
And if the people leaving the water there are actually conspiring with the mexicans, then sabotaging the water is even worse, because then it's not a case of the Mexicans should have looked after their own water supplies if they wanted to cross, but that they were potentially relying on the water to be there, and so removing it would directly contribute to their deaths whatever the legality of their actions.

And if, for instance, you were to pour them out in sight of Mexican dying of dehydration? Because it doesn't seem too much of a leap from deliberately dumping the water knowing that it will cause someone's death and doing so knowing that there is a good chance it might.

Am I federally required to assist an illegal foreign national? And to what extent must I help such a person that is certainly committing a crime?

I'm certain the answer is no. Morality and legality aren't always the same.

And besides, I'd have the legal power to make a citizen's arrest on a thirty immigrant. If the person wants water, they'll have to accept coming into custody. Otherwise they will have died because of resisting an act of enforcement of US and State law. So then it's a wash.

A volunteer group places water containers marked with blue flags (for better visibility) in the desert along the US-Mexican border.

Other people come along and either dump the containers, or shoot holes in them, to prevent the water from being available.

Theoretically, if someone crossing the desert was dehydrated sufficiently, they might reach such an empty site and die trying to reach the next one.

So, would you consider such sabotage to be an act of manslaughter?

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5030576


I'd like to say that yes it is but I can't. It's dickish and I would hold great contempt for someone who could be so callous to someone who is risking their life for the chance to better the lives of themselves and their families. Yes they are entering the US illegally and yes they are responsible for the risks they take, but that is no reason to make their mission even more life threatening.

Am I federally required to assist an illegal foreign national? And to what extent must I help such a person that is certainly committing a crime?

I'm certain the answer is no. Morality and legality aren't always the same.

Not a very nice person are you? A little compassion here and there wouldn't kill you ya know.

As for the whole destroying water supplies - that's just not cool man. What, exactly, is the worse felony, illegal immigration, or wanton murder? Because let's be honest that's what it is.

Am I federally required to assist an illegal foreign national? And to what extent must I help such a person that is certainly committing a crime?

I'm certain the answer is no. Morality and legality aren't always the same.

I don't know the laws, least of all in the US, about failing to provide aid to dying people, and under what conditions it would count as some form of negligence manslaughter, but if it does I don't see why it would fail to apply to criminals. Even people who aren't in the country legally have protections against manslaughter don't they?

I'd like to say that yes it is but I can't. It's dickish and I would hold great contempt for someone who could be so callous to someone who is risking their life for the chance to better the lives of themselves and their families. Yes they are entering the US illegally and yes they are responsible for the risks they take, but that is no reason to make their mission even more life threatening.


I'm against ILLEGAL immigration, but I think its morally wrong to deliberately deprive someone of water in this manner and under those conditions. At this point, people planning to cross illegally may have come to rely on these water stations and although I'm against them sneeking across our border, I dont think they should die while trying.
I've spent a lot of time in extreme heat in the desert and have a lot of sympathy for anyone caught under the sun, unprepared.

Edit- A lot of women and children are making this crossing too- I cant feel good about people depriving them of water they likely desperately need.

I don't know the laws, least of all in the US, about failing to provide aid to dying people, and under what conditions it would count as some form of negligence manslaughter, but if it does I don't see why it would fail to apply to criminals. Even people who aren't in the country legally have protections against manslaughter don't they?

Nope, that's a European thing (parts of Europe).. you have no duty to rescue another person from harm in this country, and aren't legally responsible, even if you're a licensed doctor, etc., in most cases. There may have been laws broken in destroying water jugs, but there was never any requirement that those jugs be put there.

Am I federally required to assist an illegal foreign national? And to what extent must I help such a person that is certainly committing a crime?

I'm certain the answer is no. Morality and legality aren't always the same.
You arn't putting out the water. You don't know who or what the water is for. You are committing a crime by removing the water in anyway. Or potentially committing a crime