NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems to me like Amnesty is jumping the gun on this one. But it wouldn't be the first time it's accused states and people of crimes with little to no evidence.


EU-US "partners in crime" on CIA flights: Amnesty (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-06-14T102449Z_01_L13774337_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-CIA-EU.xml&src=rss)
Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:25am ET10
By Ingrid Melander

"BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Amnesty International urged European states on Wednesday to stop being "partners in crime" with the United States over the alleged kidnapping of terrorism suspects and their transfer to countries that use torture.

In a report and a letter addressed to EU leaders meeting on Thursday and Friday in Brussels, the human rights groups backed accusations that the U.S. Central lntelligence Agency ran secret transfer flights and that European countries were aware of it."

Amnesty's report draws largely the same conclusions as those issued by EU lawmakers on Monday, and last week by the Council of Europe, a European human rights watchdog. None produced hard evidence.

Amnesty reports on six suspected cases of CIA abuses in which it says seven countries -- Germany, Italy, Sweden, Britain, Bosnia Herzegovina, Macedonia and Turkey -- have been involved.

"Amnesty does not produce "smoking gun" evidence either. But it says the "converging evidence" should be enough.

"The whole evidence question is overrated, it's a bit cynical," said Dick Oosting, director of Amnesty's EU office, accusing EU states of asking for much less evidence when they criticize abuses in other countries."

Ten years ago, I would have automatically assumed that there is no possible way my country would be involved in such activities. Now...it honestly wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Ten years ago, I would have automatically assumed that there is no possible way my country would be involved in such activities. Now...it honestly wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I agree. I think a lot of Europeans currently feel as if they have the moral high ground over the United States with this issue as well. It should be interesting to see how many people vote that the US alone did it, without any help from the European countries.

I agree. I think a lot of Europeans currently feel as if they have the moral high ground over the United States with this issue as well. It should be interesting to see how many people vote that the US alone did it, without any help from the European countries.
I think you'll find that number to be really, really low.

I think you'll find that number to be really, really low.

It may be. It probably doesn't help that I mentioned it either, it may influence voting now.

Your poll options aren't exactly...user friendly.

"Torture conspiracy"? A bit strong methinks.

Your poll options aren't exactly...user friendly.

"Torture conspiracy"? A bit strong methinks.

Well, torture is the main issue, and what Amnesty is accusing them of is a conspiracy by definition:

1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

Well, we all know your opinion on Amnesty and humanitarian groups in general, so this doesn't surprise me.

Tell us something we dont know ...........:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

It's probably both, although it may be a case of an agreement between the US and EU member states than the EU itself.

Well, torture is the main issue, and what Amnesty is accusing them of is a conspiracy by definition:

1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.Yeah, of course the conotation behind "conspiracy" is a bit more sinister than what ai is actually accusing the EU and the US of.

Yeah, of course the conotation behind "conspiracy" is a bit more sinister than what ai is actually accusing the EU and the US of.

I'll concede that the connotation makes it sound sinister. However, its accurate. What Amnesty is accusing the US and EU of is, by definition, conspiracy. I didn't intend to make it sound sinister, in fact the first thing that popped into my head was that Amnesty was going off the deep end with this one, and that it reminded me of various conspiracy theories. But I avoided the usage of that phrase, due to its common meaning, and instead just used conspiracy because its accurate.

Tell us something we dont know ...........:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

How 'bout, "your font is really large"?

I'll concede that the connotation makes it sound sinister. However, its accurate. What Amnesty is accusing the US and EU of is, by definition, conspiracy. I didn't intend to make it sound sinister, in fact the first thing that popped into my head was that Amnesty was going off the deep end with this one, and that it reminded me of various conspiracy theories. But I avoided the usage of that phrase, due to its common meaning, and instead just used conspiracy because its accurate.Why? There's an inquiry going on in Germany right now to see if the government knew about the CIA flights. Amnesty wasn't by far the first to bring this to anyone's attention.

Amnesty reports on six suspected cases of CIA abuses in which it says seven countries -- Germany, Italy, Sweden, Britain, Bosnia Herzegovina, Macedonia and Turkey -- have been involved.


Fass, that one's on you.

Fass, that one's on you.You think he personally took part? :p

You think he personally took part? :p
No, but if people want to blame Americans for the American government's actions, then I can blame Swedes.

Just kidding, Fass. But I do really wonder if the rest of your countryment are as enlightened as you think.

I'm not quite sure there's an option in the poll that covers my opinion on this one.

I think the USA is certainly involved. I don't think that the EU as an institution is involved, in fact it has been fairly active in demanding answers and some EU level politicians have e.g. suggested that if a secret rendition prison camp is in an EU country (it was suggested that there might be one in Poland), then that EU country should have its voting rights suspended in EU institutions for breaching human rights to an unacceptable level.

I do think that some, if not several, European Union memberstate national governments are probably complicant, or at very least know more than they claim, in the rendition process.

I hope that both the EU and the member state national governments press the USA hard for answers on this issue. I also hope that memberstate governments who have colabarated with this human rights abuse face the consequences from their electorate (and courts) if colaboration is proven.

I would say it's probably both, although I'm more inclined to lay the blame more on the US for this one.

Torture conspiracy is so negative!

It's an extraordinary rendition agreement!

Fass, that one's on you.

http://www.tv4.se/player/categories.aspx?treeId=2001&pid=25350&more=1 (<-- Media breaking the case - you know, a media that actually did its job)
http://www.tv4.se/player/categories.aspx?treeId=2001&pid=25499&more=1 (Follow up)
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/17/sweden8620.htm (Transcript of the first show)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001605_pf.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4568041.stm

This is old news, and Sweden has already been found guilty of violating the Human Rights of the two people "rendered," and rightfully so - Sweden's deserves any and all ignominy it gets over this, and I feel it certainly has not gotten enough, but the government has not been let off the hook in any way - criticism, as you can see, remains to this day. In fact, it's one of the causes that has made it possible for the opposition to win September's general elections.

The Swedish people were shocked over this two years ago, and the repercussions continue to this day, so, umm, were you trying to surprise me with this, or something?

I think you'll find that number to be really, really low.

Meh, I tend to not vote in public polls

I think that proof still needs to be put together more before a formal charge like this one is leveled. It is best to be sure, and not make a total fool out of yourself (a risk to your ability to change ills commited by the poltical sytem), rather than risk the loss of any respect people might have for you.

I think that proof still needs to be put together more before a formal charge like this one is leveled. It is best to be sure, and not make a total fool out of yourself (a risk to your ability to change ills commited by the poltical sytem), rather than risk the loss of any respect people might have for you.

http://www.tv4.se/player/categories.aspx?treeId=2001&pid=25350&more=1

http://www.tv4.se/player/categories.aspx?treeId=2001&pid=25350&more=1 (<-- Media breaking the case - you know, a media that actually did its job)
http://www.tv4.se/player/categories.aspx?treeId=2001&pid=25499&more=1 (Follow up)
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/17/sweden8620.htm (Transcript of the first show)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001605_pf.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4568041.stm

This is old news, and Sweden has already been found guilty of violating the Human Rights of the two people "rendered," and rightfully so - Sweden's deserves any and all ignominy it gets over this, and I feel it certainly has not gotten enough, but the government has not been let off the hook in any way - criticism, as you can see, remains to this day. In fact, it's one of the causes that has made it possible for the opposition to win September's general elections.

The Swedish people were shocked over this two years ago, and the repercussions continue to this day, so, umm, were you trying to surprise me with this, or something?


No, but the way the news usually plays, it's only the big, bad, evil US that does things wrong. Perish forbid that Sweden would ever even be accused of such a thing, much less actually do it.

No, but the way the news usually plays, it's only the big, bad, evil US that does things wrong. Perish forbid that Sweden would ever even be accused of such a thing, much less actually do it.

You obviously have no idea of what the news in this country and in Europe "usually plays" if you think Sweden has not been accused before.

Psst, this is not the first time Sweden is found guilty of human rights violations. So, umm, you may want to save the "us poor USians are teh victims of teh ebil media" to a domestic audience that knows as little about international media as you, hmmkay?

No, but the way the news usually plays, it's only the big, bad, evil US that does things wrong. Perish forbid that Sweden would ever even be accused of such a thing, much less actually do it.

I'm unaware of a Swedish politician, unable to get more than a few sentences out without saying "freedom" or "democracy", talking of his own nations greatness and mission to "liberate" people, while seeming to do the exact opposite for decades past and into the present. Nor have I been immersed in Arguments with swedes about how if it wasnt for them the war would have been lost, the sun go out, and the world generally go to the proverbial dogs.

Haha!! Good old Northern Ireland wasn't involved at all!! Looks like WE have the moral high ground (for once).

Haha!! Good old Northern Ireland wasn't involved at all!! Looks like WE have the moral high ground (for once).
Just give it a minute.

Why? There's an inquiry going on in Germany right now to see if the government knew about the CIA flights. Amnesty wasn't by far the first to bring this to anyone's attention.

There is an investigation in the Netherlands as well, although I haven' t heard anything from it in a while. It wouldn' t suprise me if the dutch government was involved. We pretend to be big shots on our own issues, but when America really wants something, we' re pussy' s.

So I don' t think the USA did this alone. I DO think they were at the start of this incident, else they wouldn' t be talking about CIA flights.


P.s. For all the USians who think America is constantly being put in a bad light, think of us dutch. We're the whoring, coke-sniffing, baby-killing infidels of the world (acording to fox that is).

There is an investigation in the Netherlands as well, although I haven' t heard anything from it in a while. It wouldn' t suprise me if the dutch government was involved. We pretend to be big shots on our own issues, but when America really wants something, we' re pussy' s.

So I don' t think the USA did this alone. I DO think they were at the start of this incident, else they wouldn' t be talking about CIA flights.


P.s. For all the USians who think America is constantly being put in a bad light, think of us dutch. We're the whoring, coke-sniffing, baby-killing infidels of the world (acording to fox that is).


I always thought of Dutch soldiers as the long-haired hippies who can't put their helmets on because of their hairstyles. That, from first hand experience. Excellent beer, and much friendlier people than the French.

And the best part is that they aren't Belgians.

There is an investigation in the Netherlands as well, although I haven' t heard anything from it in a while. It wouldn' t suprise me if the dutch government was involved. We pretend to be big shots on our own issues, but when America really wants something, we' re pussy' s.

So I don' t think the USA did this alone. I DO think they were at the start of this incident, else they wouldn' t be talking about CIA flights.


P.s. For all the USians who think America is constantly being put in a bad light, think of us dutch. We're the whoring, coke-sniffing, baby-killing infidels of the world (acording to fox that is).


I think we (Europeans) are supposed to be suprised that we're led by a bunch of "ass in the air for the yanks" two-faced shite bags who say one thing in public but do another on the sly...

It's hardly a surprise that this sort of thing is going on, and it would be even less of a surprise that Britain is taking part in it. But if they don't have any solid evidence of this, they should get some before they leap onto their soapbox about it. Though I'm not going to pretend that I care about the whole thing.

It's hardly a surprise that this sort of thing is going on, and it would be even less of a surprise that Britain is taking part in it. But if they don't have any solid evidence of this, they should get some before they leap onto their soapbox about it. Though I'm not going to pretend that I care about the whole thing.

Human Rights Watch has said explicitly that you don't need solid evidence to prosecute people for this sort of thing. In fact, you don't even need circumstantial evidence. All you need is a pattern of "converging" evidence - which can be as simple as "that country did something evil in the past, so they are guilty of doing it now, even if we can't see any real evidence".

Same illogic that Teh_Pantless uses.

I think we (Europeans) are supposed to be suprised that we're led by a bunch of "ass in the air for the yanks" two-faced shite bags who say one thing in public but do another on the sly...

I agree, but as a nation that depends on trade, the netherlands is way to dependent on the USA. I mean, Germany, Belgium and the U.K. are our biggest trade partners, but the dutch are one of the biggest investors in the US, or so I've been told. We can' t handle a trade embargo, even if it' s a small one. So everytime America wants something done, it' s: do it, or face the consequences.

We really don' t have much choice, you know.

Human Rights Watch has said explicitly that you don't need solid evidence to prosecute people for this sort of thing. In fact, you don't even need circumstantial evidence. All you need is a pattern of "converging" evidence - which can be as simple as "that country did something evil in the past, so they are guilty of doing it now, even if we can't see any real evidence".

Same illogic that Teh_Pantless uses.
Then Human Rights Watch can go to hell. If they have concrete evidence, they can hand it over. If not, I don't care what some self-appointed do-gooders with chips on their shoulders say.

I agree, but as a nation that depends on trade, the netherlands is way to dependent on the USA. I mean, Germany, Belgium and the U.K. are our biggest trade partners, but the dutch are one of the biggest investors in the US, or so I've been told. We can' t handle a trade embargo, even if it' s a small one. So everytime America wants something done, it' s: do it, or face the consequences.

We really don' t have much choice, you know.

All the nations say that, because standing up to them would have consequences. However collectively it could be done.