NationStates Jolt Archive

Tonight (June 13, 2006) on the PBS "News Hour" both Sen. Biden (D) DE and Sen. Lugar (R) IN agreed that the independent militias in Iraq needed to be disarmed and disbanded.

Now it seems to me that many of the NRA people on NS continually make the arguement that in order to have a democratic republic and so the people can defend themselves against some future corrupt government it is mandatory that arms in the hands of the people and independent militias are mandatory. So if the US is really trying to build a democratic republic in Iraq both of the good senators must be wrong. Instead we should be handing out arms to the people of Iraq and encouraging them to develop even more independent militias. After all the odds that someday Iraq will have a corrupt government is far more likely than in the US. They really need to be ready for that real possibility.

So the question is, if it is one of the best things for US democratic republic government to have an armed and organized populas, is it not the same for a democratic republic of Iraq?

So the question is, if it is one of the best things for US democratic republic government to have an armed and organized populas, is it not the same for a democratic republic of Iraq?

I see your implied point.

However, to carry or own a gun in the U.S. still takes many criteria. Not being a felon, or mentally ill, for instance.

And anyone who cuts off the genitalia of their daughters, stones them for having sex, forces women into quasi-slavery, believes killing people because of their religion is ok, follows a pedophile prophet, or any of countless similar beliefs- qualifies as mentally ill in my book.

So although there may be many people 'qualified' to handle a firearm safely in Iraq, I think until the culture as a whole makes it to the modern age, it is best to be safe, rather than watch a tribal war/bloodbath ensue.

Oh, wait a minute...I guess my point has been made for me already.

Yes. Anything else is hypocrisy.

In Iraq it's legal for every family to have one AK-47. What we're talking about here is heavily armed militias with RPGs and machine guns, with are quite illegal just about anywhere in the developed world.

So the question is, if it is one of the best things for US democratic republic government to have an armed and organized populas, is it not the same for a democratic republic of Iraq?

It's exactly the same. The people of Iraq need to be able to defend themselves from the government.

Yes. It would be a check both on the government and upon oppressive militias the government doesn't manage to incorporate or eliminate.

Yes. Anything else is hypocrisy.
Not really. All politics are local. What is good policy in one place is not always good policy in another place.

And anyone who cuts off the genitalia of their daughters, stones them for having sex, forces women into quasi-slavery, believes killing people because of their religion is ok, follows a pedophile prophet, or any of countless similar beliefs- qualifies as mentally ill in my book.

So although there may be many people 'qualified' to handle a firearm safely in Iraq, I think until the culture as a whole makes it to the modern age, it is best to be safe, rather than watch a tribal war/bloodbath ensue.

Completely read my mind there. /Agreed.

I see your implied point.

However, to carry or own a gun in the U.S. still takes many criteria. Not being a felon, or mentally ill, for instance.

And anyone who cuts off the genitalia of their daughters, stones them for having sex, forces women into quasi-slavery, believes killing people because of their religion is ok, follows a pedophile prophet, or any of countless similar beliefs- qualifies as mentally ill in my book.

So although there may be many people 'qualified' to handle a firearm safely in Iraq, I think until the culture as a whole makes it to the modern age, it is best to be safe, rather than watch a tribal war/bloodbath ensue.

Oh, wait a minute...I guess my point has been made for me already.

That is, "freedom is for us, not for the dirty Arabs, fool."

How typical.

Yes, of course they should

How pray tell would you disarm them?

Yes, of course they should

How pray tell would you disarm them?
Why, with force. Practice for when they start disarming US Americans.

That is, "freedom is for us, not for the dirty Arabs, fool."

How typical.
How did he say that? He said that once they create a modern and safe society they should be aloud to carry guns? You are drawing conclusions out of thin air completely unrelated to his statement.
ADDITION: That is more the Demicrat's feeling about them as shown by their vocal distaste for freeing millions of Iraqies and Afganies.

The guns are not the problem the militia is the problem. So you're implied point is baseless. If you tried to form an active and armed militia in the range of 10 or 20 thousand irregulars in the US the FBI, ATF, and Armed Forces of the United States would on you in a hearbeat.

Tonight (June 13, 2006) on the PBS "News Hour" both Sen. Biden (D) DE and Sen. Lugar (R) IN agreed that the independent militias in Iraq needed to be disarmed and disbanded.

Now it seems to me that many of the NRA people on NS continually make the arguement that in order to have a democratic republic and so the people can defend themselves against some future corrupt government it is mandatory that arms in the hands of the people and independent militias are mandatory. So if the US is really trying to build a democratic republic in Iraq both of the good senators must be wrong. Instead we should be handing out arms to the people of Iraq and encouraging them to develop even more independent militias. After all the odds that someday Iraq will have a corrupt government is far more likely than in the US. They really need to be ready for that real possibility.

So the question is, if it is one of the best things for US democratic republic government to have an armed and organized populas, is it not the same for a democratic republic of Iraq?

I'm a little confused...
Is the reason Americans own guns REALLY to protect themselves from their corrupt gov't?
Cuz...
*looks at Bush admin*
Just how corrupt does it have to get before the bullets start flying?
Or is it okay, cuz he's on the side of right wing gun nuts?

I'm all for the Iraqi people being allowed to have their own personal weapons, it's what they do with them that matters. If they go off and try to start a civil war with them, or machine gun bunches of [insert ethnic group here]s then they get to be in some deep shit, but otherwise, I say let 'em have their weapons, and let 'em join militias, just keep them from actually partaking in the massive crazy violence.

What we certainly don't need is a state within a state, so I suppose this issue is but one step in this.

How did he say that? He said that once they create a modern and safe society they should be aloud to carry guns? You are drawing conclusions out of thin air completely unrelated to his statement.

The notion that somehow Iraqi culture, for reasons that are irrelevant, inaccurate, or both, makes the people there undeserving of the human right to self-defense deserves to be categorized exactly as I categorized it.

ADDITION: That is more the Demicrat's feeling about them as shown by their vocal distaste for freeing millions of Iraqies and Afganies.

A good number of the Democrats do indeed support freeing the Iraqis from the despicable oppression of non-servility to the US, and all but Barbara Lee supported the similar effort in Afghanistan.

I see your implied point.

However, to carry or own a gun in the U.S. still takes many criteria. Not being a felon, or mentally ill, for instance.


Yeah. Mentally ill... according to the same psychological system that gave us methamphetamines to our children, and once classified homosexuality as a disease.

And anyone who cuts off the genitalia of their daughters, stones them for having sex, forces women into quasi-slavery, believes killing people because of their religion is ok, follows a pedophile prophet, or any of countless similar beliefs- qualifies as mentally ill in my book.

I see your implied point. Muslims are barbarian terrorist crazies and should be locked up in an insane asylum. To you they are even subhumanoid. Personally, I see your viewpoint as being the mentally ill one.

So although there may be many people 'qualified' to handle a firearm safely in Iraq, I think until the culture as a whole makes it to the modern age, it is best to be safe, rather than watch a tribal war/bloodbath ensue.

If you don't want to watch, cover your eyes. Denial seems to work well for you as a method...

How did he say that? He said that once they create a modern and safe society they should be aloud to carry guns? You are drawing conclusions out of thin air completely unrelated to his statement.
ADDITION: That is more the Demicrat's feeling about them as shown by their vocal distaste for freeing millions of Iraqies and Afganies.

How the FUCK can you sit there and in one breath condescendingly talk about these people like they're primitive barbarians who shouldn't be allowed the secret of writing, for whom you will create the standards by which you'll control and impose on their society, which you currently occupy by military force ... and in the next, imply that people like you FREED Iraqis?

Isn't there a bullshit hypocrosymeter or something in your posession that lets you know when you've gone too far into the realm of self-satire?

I think the Iraqis should decide for themselves. The American model is not the be all and end all.

As of right now each Iraqi family can have one AK with one mag. That's it.

As of right now each Iraqi family can have one AK with one mag. That's it.
So by NRA standards they had the power to overthrow a corrupt government if they thought they needed to. Interesting......

So by NRA standards they had the power to overthrow a corrupt government if they thought they needed to. Interesting......

Who said that under saddam they could? One AK and a mag isn't nearly enough, but it's the rules for now, and it'll change.



You need more than an AK to resist a gov't. LMGs, rockets, Artillery, bombs, explosives, etc.

You need more than an AK to resist a gov't. LMGs, rockets, Artillery, bombs, explosives, etc.
So these are necessary for the 2nd to have any value.

I can find no right to bear arms in the Iraqi constitution .

CHAPTER TWO: RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS PART ONE: RIGHTS FIRST: Civil and political rights. Article (14): Iraqis are equal before the law without discrimination because of sex, ethnicity, nationality, origin, colour, religion, sect, belief, opinion or social or economic status. Article (15): Every individual has the right to life and security and freedom and cannot be deprived of these rights or have them restricted except in accordance to the law and based on a ruling by the appropriate judicial body. Article (16): Equal opportunity is a right guaranteed to all Iraqis, and the state shall take the necessary steps to achieve this. Article (17): 1st - Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality. 2nd - The sanctity of the home is protected. They cannot be entered or searched or violated except by judicial decision and in accordance with the law. Article (18): 1st - An Iraqi is anyone who has been born to an Iraqi father or an Iraqi mother. 2nd - Iraqi nationality is a right to all Iraqis and it is the basis of their citizenship. 3rd - (a) It shall be forbidden to withdraw the Iraqi citizenship from an Iraqi by birth for any reason. Those who have had their citizenship withdrawn have the right to reclaim it and this should be regulated by law. (b) Iraqi citizenship shall be withdrawn from naturalized citizens in cases stated by law. 4th - Every Iraqi has the right to carry more than one citizenship. Those who take a leading or high-level security position must give up any other citizenship. This shall be regulated by law.
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5th - Iraqi citizenship may not be granted for the purposes of a policy of population settlement disrupting the demographic makeup in Iraq. 6th - Citizenship regulations shall be determined by law, and the proper courts should hear suits arising from the regulations. Article (19): 1st - The judiciary is independent, with no power above it other than the law. 2nd - There is no crime and no punishment except by the text (of law). And there is no punishment except for an act that the law considers a crime at the time of its commission. No punishment can be enacted that is heavier than the punishment allowed at the time of the crime's commission. 3rd - Trial by judiciary is a right protected and guaranteed to all. 4th - The right to defence is holy and guaranteed in all stages of investigation and trial. 5th - The accused is innocent until his guilt is proven in a just, legal court. The accused cannot be tried for the same accusation again after he has been freed unless new evidence appears. 6th - Every individual has the right to be treated in a just manner in all judicial and administrative procedures. 7th - Court sessions will be open unless the court decides to make them secret. 8th - Punishment is for individuals. 9th - Laws do not apply retroactively unless otherwise has been legislated, and this exception does not include laws of taxes and duties. 10th - Punitive law shall not be applied retroactively unless it is best for the defendant. 11th - The court shall appoint an attorney to defend defendants charged with a felony or a misdemeanour who don't have an attorney and it shall be at the state's expense. 12th - (a) (Arbitrary) detention shall not be allowed. (b) Arrest or imprisonment is not allowed in places other than those designated for that according to prison laws that are covered by health and social services and are under the control of the state. 13th - Preliminary investigation papers shall be shown to the concerned judge no later than 24 hours from the time of the detention of the accused and cannot be extended except once and for same duration. Article (20): Citizens, male and female, have the right to participate in public matters and enjoy political rights, including the right to vote and run as candidates. Article (21): 1st - An Iraqi shall not be handed over to foreign bodies and authorities. 2nd - Political asylum to Iraq shall be regulated by law and the political refugee shall not be turned over to a foreign body or forcefully returned to the country from which he has fled. 3rd - Political asylum shall not be granted to those accused of committing international or terror crimes or to anyone who has caused Iraq harm.
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SECOND: Economic, social and cultural rights Article (22): 1st - Work is a right for all Iraqis in a way that guarantees them a good life. 2nd - The law regulates the relation between employees and employers on an economic basis, while keeping in consideration rules of social justice. 3rd - The state guarantees the right to form or join syndicates or professional unions. This shall be regulated by law. Article (23): 1st - Private property is protected and the owner has the right to use it, exploit it and benefit from it within the boundaries of the law. 2nd - Property may not be taken away except for the public interest in exchange for fair compensation. This shall be regulated by law. 3rd- (a) An Iraqi has the right to ownership anywhere in Iraq and no one else has the right to own real estate except what is exempted by law. (b) Ownership with the purpose of demographic changes is forbidden. Article (24): The state shall guarantee the freedom of movement for workers, goods and Iraqi capital between the regions and the provinces. This shall be regulated by law. Article (25): The state shall guarantee the reforming of the Iraqi economy according to modern economic bases, in a way that ensures complete investment of its resources, diversifying its sources and encouraging and developing the private sector. Article (26): The country shall guarantee the encouragement of investments in the different sectors. This shall be regulated by law. Article (27): 1st - Public property is sacrosanct, and its protection is the duty of every citizen. 2nd - Regulations pertaining to preserving and administrating state property, the conditions set for using it and the cases when giving up any of the property may be allowed shall be regulated by law. Article (28): 1st - Taxes and fees shall not be imposed, amended, collected oreliminated except by law. 2nd - Low-income people should be exempted from taxes in a way that guarantees maintaining the minimum level necessary for a living. This shall be regulated by law. Article (29): 1st- (a) The family is the foundation of society and the state should preserve its (the family's) existence and ethical and religious value. (b) The state shall guarantee the protection of motherhood, childhood and old age and shall take care of juveniles and youths and provide them with agreeable conditions to develop their capabilities. 2nd - Children have the right to upbringing, education and care from their parents; parents have the right to respect and care from their children, especially in times of want, disability or old age.
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3rd - Economic exploitation of children in any form is banned and the state shall take measures to guarantee their protection. 4th - Violence and abuse in the family, school and society shall be forbidden. Article (30): 1st - The state guarantees social and health insurance, the basics for a free and honourable life for the individual and the family - especially children and women - and works to protect them from illiteracy, fear and poverty and provides them with housing and the means to rehabilitate and take care of them. This shall be regulated by law. Article (31): 1st - Every Iraqi has the right to health service, and the state is in charge of public health and guarantees the means of protection and treatment by building different kinds of hospitals and health institutions. 2nd - Individuals and associations have the right to build hospitals,dispensaries or private clinics under the supervision of the state. This shall be regulated by law. Article (32): The state cares for the disabled and those with special needs and guarantees their rehabilitation to integrate them in society. This shall be regulated by law. Article (33): 1st - Every individual has the right to live in a correct environmental atmosphere. 2nd - The state guarantees protection and preservation of the environment and biological diversity. Article (34): 1st - Education is a main factor for the progress of society and it is a right guaranteed by the state. It is mandatory in the primary school and the state guarantees fighting illiteracy. 2nd - Free education is a right for Iraqis in all its stages. 3rd - The state encourages scientific research for peaceful purposes in a way that benefits humanity and it promotes excelling, creativity and the different manifestations of excellence. 4th - Private and national education is guaranteed and regulated by law. PART TWO: Freedoms Article (35): 1st - (a) The freedom and dignity of a person are protected. (b) No one may be detained or investigated unless by judicial decision. (c) All forms of torture, mental or physical, and inhuman treatment are forbidden. There is no recognition of any confession extracted by force or threats or torture, and the injured party may seek compensation for any physical or mental injury that is inflicted. 2nd - The state is committed to protecting the individual from coercion in thought, religion or politics, and no one may be imprisoned on these bases. 3rd - Forced labour, slavery and the commerce in slaves is forbidden, as is the trading in women or children or the sex trade.
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Article (36): The state guarantees, as long as it does not violate public order and morality: 1st - the freedom of expressing opinion by all means. 2nd - the freedom of press, publishing, media and distribution. 3rd - freedom of assembly and peaceful protest will be organized by law. Article (37): 1st - Freedom to establish and belong to political organizations and parties is guaranteed, and it will be organized by law. 2nd - No person can be forced to join or remain a member of a political party or organization. Article (38): The freedom of communications and exchanges by post, telegraph, telephone and by electronic and other means is guaranteed. They will not be monitored or spied upon or revealed except for legal and security necessity in accordance with the law. Article (39): Iraqis are free in their adherence to their personal status according to their own religion, sect, belief and choice, and that will be organized by law. Article (40): 1st - The followers of every religion and sect are free in: (a) the practice of their religious rites, including the (Shiite) Husseiniya Rites. (b) the administration of religious endowments and their affairs and their religious institutions, and this will be organized by law. 2nd - The state guarantees freedom of worship and the protection of its places. Article (41): Every individual has freedom of thought and conscience. Article (42): 1st - The Iraqi citizen has freedom of movement and travel and residence within Iraq and outside it. 2nd - No Iraqi can be exiled or forced out or forbidden to return to his nation. Article (43): 1st - The state is keen to strengthen the role of civil society groups and to support, develop them and preserve their independence in accordance with peaceful means to realize legitimate goals. This shall be regulated by law. 2nd - The state is keen to advance Iraqi tribes and clans and it cares about their affairs in accordance with religion, law and honourable human values and in a way that contributes to developing society and it forbids tribal customs that run contrary to human rights. Article (44): All individuals have the right to enjoy the rights stated ininternational human rights agreements and treaties endorsed by Iraq that don't run contrary to the principles and rules of this constitution. Article (45): Restricting or limiting any of the freedoms and liberties stated in this constitution may only happen by, or according to, law and as long as thisrestriction or limitation does not undermine the essence of the right or freedom.



http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:rZKJQ6wiTLAJ:news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/24_08_05_constit.pdf+iraqi+constitution&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

So these are necessary for the 2nd to have any value.

No.

Ever hear of M995? Fired from an M16 it will pierce most armored cars. Ever hear of the m107 .50? Turns vehicles into swiss cheese AND will incinerate them.

And if the time comes to use the second amendment ANYTHING will be game Mortars, artillery, tanks, explosives, etc.

I can find no right to bear arms in the Iraqi constitution .

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:rZKJQ6wiTLAJ:news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/24_08_05_constit.pdf+iraqi+constitution&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
That's the question of the thread. Since the US "helped" write the Iraq constitution should there be a provision that allows for the private ownership of weapons in order for the citizens to form militias, or should the militias be disarmed and disbanded? Either way there needs to be a reason why weapons are needed in the US to defend against a corrupt government but that freedom should not be in Iraq (where corrupt govenment is highly likely) or the reason it should be in Iraq.

That's the question of the thread. Since the US "helped" write the Iraq constitution should there be a provision that allows for the private ownership of weapons in order for the citizens to form militias, or should the militias be disarmed and disbanded? Either way there needs to be a reason why weapons are needed in the US to defend against a corrupt government but that freedom should not be in Iraq (where corrupt govenment is highly likely) or the reason it should be in Iraq.

Couldn't understand why they didn't put that in. Atleast they will be able to suggest an amendment.

Oh wait....they just created the spark to starty an Iraqi Chapter of the NRA! WAY TO GO!

i dont think anyone should own a gun except those in the army or policemen.
they arm themselves because they feel invaded-if america really wanted to free iraquis why did they give iraq weapons against iran,why didnt they free the iraqis in 91 and why did they go to war under the pretence of weapons of mass destruction.i dont agree with civilian armourment but you can see why.anyhow the iraquis are no more barbaric than the americans.i suggest those that think all iraqis are barbarians are either racist or they believe the american governments propaganda.

The notion that somehow Iraqi culture, for reasons that are irrelevant, inaccurate, or both, makes the people there undeserving of the human right to self-defense deserves to be categorized exactly as I categorized it.
But in the current status it is impractical for people to all have guns, it is already to easy for terrorists to hide, and if they are all heavily armed (until recently an AK would be illegal in the United States (an issue Democrats have wanted to reregulate)) it would be all the harder to differentiate between combatants and noncombatants.


A good number of the Democrats do indeed support freeing the Iraqis from the despicable oppression of non-servility to the US, and all but Barbara Lee supported the similar effort in Afghanistan.
What Democrats do you talk to? I have met 3 who still think that going into Iraq was a good idea. As far as I've met they oppose ever setting foot in Iraq.

How the FUCK can you sit there and in one breath condescendingly talk about these people like they're primitive barbarians who shouldn't be allowed the secret of writing, for whom you will create the standards by which you'll control and impose on their society, which you currently occupy by military force ... and in the next, imply that people like you FREED Iraqis?

Isn't there a bullshit hypocrosymeter or something in your posession that lets you know when you've gone too far into the realm of self-satire?
Ok the word society may be the wrong word (its not my word it was the guy who I was semi defending), perhaps...situation, you can't let everyone have high powered weapons when many dangerous people are in the same place and you are already having trouble telling good guys and bad guys. And yes, how can you feel they are less free? The hell can you see it otherwise? How is broader education and open elections not a improvement over a ruthless totalitarian regime?

That's the question of the thread. Since the US "helped" write the Iraq constitution should there be a provision that allows for the private ownership of weapons in order for the citizens to form militias, or should the militias be disarmed and disbanded? Either way there needs to be a reason why weapons are needed in the US to defend against a corrupt government but that freedom should not be in Iraq (where corrupt govenment is highly likely) or the reason it should be in Iraq.

Key word is HELPED ...the US did not want it to be based on Islam but it is ..is it not...read through it , you will find alot of things that the US did not like...BUT ITS AN IRAQI CONSTITUTION and had to be acceptable to the IRAQIS who voted on it aand RATIFIED it . Fuck the US ...the more it was like the US constitution the LESS likely it would have EVER been accepted.
The IRAQIS have their own ideas , thats what DEMOCRACY is about .
The IRAQIS have as close to a true Democracy as you are going to get...lets see if they can get it to take hold and can keep it...12 million of them VOTED for it .

Very simply, Iraq is a country that we built many years ago. We allowed for a tyranical government to come into power and then we completely destroyed it (if you dont believe me look it up). Now they want to exercise their right to defend their homes.

We attack them, we are doing them a favor. They defend themselves and we call them terrorists. Think of how rediculous that sounds; but it is what we are doing.

They should be allowed to keep and bear arms as we are allowed to, because that is the truest way to limit goverment. We were given this right to defend ourselves from the tyranny of evil beings and they should have that right too. But the reality of it is, we will continue to dictate their lives, because we want their lives to be like ours.

Possession of weapons by anyone outside the official military must be punished by death on first offense in Iraq.

Failure to cooperate with that ban: ditto.

Failure to inform the authorities about troublemakers: ditto.

cut cut cut
'' follows a pedophile prophet''



:eek: ... I hope that people will give me right to state that this is and injust insult and most barbaric, ignorant etc. Who thaught you this kind of lies? Is this newest propaganda against islam? Or are you personally an ass?
**Don't you know that prophet you are talking about? He was 25 years old when he married and his wife was 40 years old and divorced twice before. **
Of course long after his death arabian rulers attributed him soooo many marriages with every kind of women to justify their own doings but anyone with a good intention can see past that. And anyone who just accepts any fake story they hear about someone are people who hate people and just looking for an excuse. You can read pornographic novels with Jesus in it but that doesnt mean any of it true...

And anyone who cuts off the genitalia of their daughters, stones them for having sex, forces women into quasi-slavery, believes killing people because of their religion is ok, follows a pedophile prophet, or any of countless similar beliefs- qualifies as mentally ill in my book.
Don't be stupid. That's a very, very sweeping statement and I'm sure that you know it is.
So although there may be many people 'qualified' to handle a firearm safely in Iraq, [b]I think until the culture as a whole makes it to the modern age, it is best to be safe, rather than watch a tribal war/bloodbath ensue.[b]
And what's culturally better about the US, a country which was founded upon genocide and is now fed by the blood of oil-bearing nations?

"Urmm We won World War 2 for the rest of the world, and Christianity is the best thing since nan bread!", yeah?

However, to carry or own a gun in the U.S. still takes many criteria. Not being a felon, or mentally ill, for instance.

Or complaining about not owning a gun.

Very simply, Iraq is a country that we built many years ago. We allowed for a tyranical government to come into power and then we completely destroyed it (if you dont believe me look it up). Now they want to exercise their right to defend their homes.
I think you mean "about twenty-five years ago", which is not very many at all.
We attack them, we are doing them a favor. They defend themselves and we call them terrorists. Think of how rediculous that sounds; but it is what we are doing.
Indeed. You're just lucky they don't shoot everyone in America with a gun in their hands as a "War on Terror".
They should be allowed to keep and bear arms as we are allowed to, because that is the truest way to limit goverment. We were given this right to defend ourselves from the tyranny of evil beings and they should have that right too. But the reality of it is, we will continue to dictate their lives, because we want their lives to be like ours.
I've got a better idea. Release Saddam and have a public vote to see if they want him back in power or not.

If so, put him back in power and tear down the government. Then leave Iraq, make a huge apology and pay a few billion in reparations, which would only be fair all things considered.

If not, put him, Rumsfeld, Bush Sr., and Bush Jr. in the dock for war crimes, and have a proper trial, not a sham so that you can execute Saddam in a quasi-legal way.

Most Iraqi homes before the invasion had an AK-47 or some other rifle in them. I thought that was supposed to make them free...?

*shrug*

I have a better idea.

Use control of foodsupplies + rationing to force all inhabitants of Iraq to choose between:

A] Obedience to authority

or

B] Starvation.

Ought to settle things quickly enough...

Most Iraqi homes before the invasion had an AK-47 or some other rifle in them. I thought that was supposed to make them free...?
Which just shows how flawed peoples' logic is when it comes to this kind of thing.

Assault rifles didn't make the Iraqis more free at all.

Rights like the 'right to bear arms' are the sort of second-order rights that can only be meaningfully discussed in a civil society.

Until iraq ends its civil war and forms a powerful government capable of regulating the country, there is no way to frame any discussion of "should iraqis... this or that." Iraqi is suffering from a measure of anarchy right now, which makes the question moot.

But in the current status it is impractical for people to all have guns, it is already to easy for terrorists to hide, and if they are all heavily armed (until recently an AK would be illegal in the United States (an issue Democrats have wanted to reregulate)) it would be all the harder to differentiate between combatants and noncombatants.

Which is a vastly different argument than the one I responded to.

What Democrats do you talk to? I have met 3 who still think that going into Iraq was a good idea. As far as I've met they oppose ever setting foot in Iraq.

I was thinking of the Democratic leadership.

Most Iraqi homes before the invasion had an AK-47 or some other rifle in them. I thought that was supposed to make them free...?


Guns dont make people free, only good government can do that.

Its debatable whether or not having guns helps ensure good government.