NationStates Jolt Archive

The Canadian Government, or the suspected terrorists?

We know how a lot of you feel about terrorists - how they automatically get the benefit of the doubt, are innocent until proven guilty no matter what they're caught doing or what they've said in communications. And how bad and evil the US and Israeli (and for some of you, the UK government) are.

But what say you about Canada?

Serious allegations by the lawyer of the accused...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150149009497&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

I try to have a little more patience in waiting for the truth, especially as the Police keep shooting 'terrorists' who turn out to have done nothing at all.

I try to have a little more patience in waiting for the truth, especially as the Police keep shooting 'terrorists' who turn out to have done nothing at all.
Please show me links to where police shot terrorists and were in the wrong, as well as links where police shot terrorists and were in the right.

Then tell me how big your sample size is, and we'll talk.

Wait, are you saying accused terrorists arn't innocent until proven guilty?

Accused serial killers are. (Don't ask me where the line between serial killer and terrorist is.)

Accused child rapists are. (Terrifying.)

The Marines involved in Haditha are.

In fact, all criminals in the US are innocent until proven guilty, no matter what they're caught doing. It's this little thing we call due process of law. You should look into it.

As for your question, I'd have to say they most likely were physically abused. Pigs are pigs in any country. However, I doubt there has been any systematic "torture".

Wait, are you saying accused terrorists arn't innocent until proven guilty?

Accused serial killers are. (Don't ask me where the line between serial killer and terrorist is.)

Accused child rapists are. (Terrifying.)

The Marines involved in Haditha are.

In fact, all criminals in the US are innocent until proven guilty, no matter what they're caught doing. It's this little thing we call due process of law. You should look into it.

As for your question, I'd have to say they most likely were physically abused. Pigs are pigs in any country. However, I doubt there has been any systematic "torture".

Are you saying that in situations where a policeman believes himself to be in imminent danger (whether he's right or not), he's not allowed to defend himself?

Here in the US, you don't have to be a terrorist to get shot. All you have to do is satisfy the requirements for "constituting an immediate threat to life".

Simply putting your hand in your pocket when they don't ask you to will do it.

I somehow don't see Canadians as being capable of using harsh language, much less torture.

I somehow don't see Canadians as being capable of using harsh language, much less torture.
Neither do I. I'm surprised they put him in such a restrictive cell (didn't even know that Canada had cells for solitary confinement).

The Canadian Government, or the suspected terrorists?

We know how a lot of you feel about terrorists - how they automatically get the benefit of the doubt, are innocent until proven guilty no matter what they're caught doing or what they've said in communications. And how bad and evil the US and Israeli (and for some of you, the UK government) are.

But what say you about Canada?

Serious allegations by the lawyer of the accused...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150149009497&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
Are there pictures of the abuse? Videotape, a la Abu Ghraib? If there are, let's see them.

As to whether or not they've been abused by police, I'd be surprised if they weren't. Cops have a nasty habit of abusing those in their care if they feel the accused deserve it, and I can imagine a cop taking a shot or two if he thinks he can get away with it. Cops are cops no matter where you go, in my limited experience.

Neither do I. I'm surprised they put him in such a restrictive cell (didn't even know that Canada had cells for solitary confinement).
I wonder if they've nicknamed it "the penalty box"?

Are you saying that in situations where a policeman believes himself to be in imminent danger (whether he's right or not), he's not allowed to defend himself?

Here in the US, you don't have to be a terrorist to get shot. All you have to do is satisfy the requirements for "constituting an immediate threat to life".

Simply putting your hand in your pocket when they don't ask you to will do it.

No, that would be a different situation entirely. Guilt or innocence is irrelevant in determining the proper use of force to subdue a suspect.

These men are in custody. They should be treated no differently than anyone else accused of a violent crime.

...and plenty of people get shot by incompetent pigs without ever "constituting an immediate threat to life."

Canadian government.

...and plenty of people get shot by incompetent pigs without ever "constituting an immediate threat to life."
What's with the derogatory remarks towards the police?

One would like to think that considering how high profile this case is, that everyone involved would be 'minding their p's and q's'. Notice how careful the Prime Minister is being about making grand statements over this; Toronto has a large muslim population and this is a sensitive issue.

That being said, I wouldn't put it past individual police officers being a little 'rough', although throwing the term 'torture' out there is rediculous.

as long as they are being kept firmly in custody i am very willing to entertain the possibility that they are innocent--if it cant be proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt then they are in alll likelihood innocent

as long as they are being kept firmly in custody i am also willing to entertain the possibility that the guards in the facility where they are being held are treating them in a manner that it outside the established rules. that can be monitored and guards changed if it turns out to be correct

as long as it doesnt result in them being prematurely released from custody, i dont care if the canadian government litigates the notion that they are space aliens.

Please show me links to where police shot terrorists and were in the wrong, as well as links where police shot terrorists and were in the right.

Then tell me how big your sample size is, and we'll talk.

Well there's this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5077198.stm) and this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4176148.stm).

What's with the derogatory remarks towards the police?

I'm guessing s/he's British. The police don't have a particuarly good record at the moment.

What's with the derogatory remarks towards the police?

Pure unadulterated hatred. Cops are petty, abusive, and ignorant people.

I voted wrong! DARN!

Go, CANADA!

Well there's this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5077198.stm) and this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4176148.stm).
Ta, saves me from finding them.

Personally I think the evidence seems pretty damning in this instance. I hope Canada brings them to trial swiftly to show the US how a civilised nation deals with suspected terrorists.

The Canadian Government, or the suspected terrorists?

We know how a lot of you feel about terrorists - how they automatically get the benefit of the doubt, are innocent until proven guilty no matter what they're caught doing or what they've said in communications. And how bad and evil the US and Israeli (and for some of you, the UK government) are.

But what say you about Canada?

Serious allegations by the lawyer of the accused...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150149009497&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Deep Kimchi, EVERYONE is presumed innocent until proven guilty in the Canadian justice system, regardless of what crime they have been accused of. Last I heard, the US constitution agreed on that point.

That doesn't make me a terrorist sympathizer and I'm shocked that you would try to imply that.

However, I do not believe that the Toronto 17 are being mistreated by the government or the justice system. I suspect that these are bogus allegations used by the defense lawyers in a desperate attempt to make the suspects more sympathetic by playing off Lynnie England-style horror stories coming out of Iraq. In other words, a typical defense lawyer. ;)

Please show me links to where police shot terrorists and were in the wrong, as well as links where police shot terrorists and were in the right.

Then tell me how big your sample size is, and we'll talk.

It's happened twice in the UK - a Brazilian called Mendez was shot multiple times (and killed)from close range on the tube after being followed across London and last week 250 Police raided a house in London and shot a man (wounded but not killed). I'm too lazy to search for the links myself but i suggest you try the BBC.

Pure unadulterated hatred. Cops are petty, abusive, and ignorant people.
Way to generalise. So then, if I say the poor are pathetic leeches to society and bums, that would be okay too then, wouldn't it?

Lol a terrorist giggled.

Are you saying that in situations where a policeman believes himself to be in imminent danger (whether he's right or not), he's not allowed to defend himself?

Here in the US, you don't have to be a terrorist to get shot. All you have to do is satisfy the requirements for "constituting an immediate threat to life".

Simply putting your hand in your pocket when they don't ask you to will do it.

Innocent until proven guilty does not prevent police officers from defending themselves in the line of duty.

I don't remember you jumping to this kind of extreme conclusion in your previous incarnations. Is something wrong?

...and plenty of people get shot by incompetent pigs without ever "constituting an immediate threat to life."
Ah yes, more proof of the childish mindset of the left...It's like you people never grew out of your teenaged "Emo" phase...

I think the suspects are making it up.

But what say you about Canada?
As a nation with a better track record, I have more trust in them. But remember that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. That's one of those things that makes Western civilisation better than Islamist barbarism.

Ah yes, more proof of the childish mindset of the left...It's like you people never grew out of your teenaged "Emo" phase...

I think the suspects are making it up.
lol, if the left is childish, at least they think for themselves, unlike the robotic right.

lol, if the left is childish, at least they think for themselves, unlike the robotic right.

Ahahahahahaha! Bullshit.

I've met plenty of folks on all parts of the political spectrum (and a few who were off of it ;) ), and there are very few of them who genuinely thought for themselves no matter where they were on that spectrum.

Ahahahahahaha! Bullshit.

I've met plenty of folks on all parts of the political spectrum (and a few who were off of it ;) ), and there are very few of them who genuinely thought for themselves no matter where they were on that spectrum.
Sadly, that is very true.

lol, if the left is childish, at least they think for themselves, unlike the robotic right.
"Think for themselves"?

Is gobbling up propaganda developed by old, beardscratching, shriveled-up, bitter Communists from the Cold War era and their emo apprentices, and spewing the crap they feed you called "thinking for yourself" these days?

If that's so, how far we've fallen.

"Think for themselves"?

Is gobbling up propaganda developed by old, beardscratching, shriveled-up, bitter Communists from the Cold War era and their emo apprentices, and spewing the crap they feed you called "thinking for yourself" these days?

If that's so, how far we've fallen.
:rolleyes: Wingnut, heal thyself.

"Think for themselves"?

Is gobbling up propaganda developed by old, beardscratching, shriveled-up, bitter Communists from the Cold War era and their emo apprentices, and spewing the crap they feed you called "thinking for yourself" these days?

If that's so, how far we've fallen.
No, I don't really think so. There are robots and free thinkers on both sides of the spectrum. I just found it ironic that you just went ahead and parroted the right-wing line "I think the suspects are making it up."

:rolleyes: Wingnut, heal thyself.
Nice rebuttal.


No, I don't really think so. There are robots and free thinkers on both sides of the spectrum. I just found it ironic that you just went ahead and parroted the right-wing line "I think the suspects are making it up."
Once some real evidence comes forward, I might be inclined to believe it, but until then, I have no reason to believe they are'nt making it up to muddy the waters and to drive a wedge between westerners, who terrorists consider their enemy.

Nice rebuttal.


Once some real evidence comes forward, I might be inclined to believe it, but until then, I have no reason to believe they are'nt making it up to muddy the waters and to drive a wedge between westerners, who terrorists consider their enemy.
I'm more inclined to think this is just a new version of the typical nonsense spouted by desperate defense attornies in an attempt to make their clients seem more sympathetic to the people that will one day be sitting in the jury box.

...and plenty of people get shot by incompetent pigs without ever "constituting an immediate threat to life."

Ah yes, more proof of the childish mindset of the left...It's like you people never grew out of your teenaged "Emo" phase...


"Thursday, June 9, (2005) was just another day in the war on drugs in Austin, the capital city of Texas. A city as racially segregated as any, Austin is bisected north to south by the towering, double-decked Interstate 35, a concrete barrier that very cleanly marks the divide between the primarily white -- or "Anglo," as they say in Texas -- west side of the city and predominantly black and Hispanic East Austin. It was in shabby subdivisions of southeast Austin that Thursday evening that 18-year-old Daniel Rocha died, his heart penetrated by a single slug fired at point blank range by Austin police officer Julie Schroeder -- into his back....."

http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/391/austin.shtml

"Following the termination of an officer involved in the fatal shooting of an East Austin teen last summer, the Austin police officer's union is calling for Austin Police Department Chief Stan Knee's removal. Officer Julie Schroeder was fired Friday for procedural violations committed during a June traffic stop that resulted in the death of 18-year-old Daniel Rocha.

This is the first firing of an APD officer in at least a decade.

In Schroeder's termination papers, Knee cited violations, including not using in-car video equipment, improperly carrying a Taser and unnecessary use of lethal force.

'Not only did Officer Schroeder use deadly force when it was not appropriate to do so, she needlessly jeopardized the life of another officer,' Knee wrote."

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/storage/paper410/news/2005/11/21/TopStories/Officer.Who.Shot.Suspect.Fired-1111326.shtml?norewrite200606132340&sourcedomain=www.dailytexanonline.com


That is merely the most recent incident here in Austin. The story gets repeated time and time again in cities across the country.

Guess I'm childish for being pissed off that the assholes trying to lock me up everyday can murder one of my peers and get away it.

I'm not the left, I'm not "you people", and I don't really know what "emo" is.

...but I'm working on one hell of a grudge against right-wing asshats like you.

Nice rebuttal.
Well, since you put forward such a strong argument, I felt I had to bring out the really big guns on you. :rolleyes:

Well there's this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5077198.stm) and this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4176148.stm).
Or this (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29503)...

(The Onion rocks)