NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, so I'm supposed to be studying, meaning I don't get out much these days. So today was the first time I really went outside since the World Cup started.

There are flags everywhere. German flags.

I live in Berlin, so of course there are also flags of other nations hanging off balconies or in front of little shops and cafés. But what I can't get over are the dozens of German flags I've seen just on my little round to get some groceries. There are tons of cars flying two or even three small German flags our of their windows. The German team doesn't even play today.

This is seriously creeping me out.

I cheer on our team as much as the next person, and if you're going to see a game in the stadium or on a public screen, sure, go ahead and paint the black-red-gold on your face.

But I have to admit I get queasy when I turn on the TV and see just masses of German flags being waved in front of the TV cameras at the open air screens. And passing dozens and dozens of cars flying the German flag even though we're not even playing today just boggles my mind.

And I guess I know that every other nation would do the same, and that most people who fly the flag mean no harm whatsoever and are just happy that we're hosting the World Cup (or something).

But this isn't every other nation, and we haven't had an easy relationship with flag-waving for the past 60 years, and it's not like there isn't a reason for that.

So yeah, maybe you think I'm just paranoid (I'm guessing that especially for Americans it must be hard to understand how flying your own flag isn't the most natural thing in the world), but I'm actually quite shaken.

Will this help make German nationalism becoming socially acceptable again? Are all the Bild readers happily dusting off their flags and their "German pride" to show the world that "we are somebody again"?

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sf/no.gif

Somebody hold me, please.

I remember when I was in Germany it was near impossible to see a German flag. It took me ages before I even found a shop that could sell one to me. Here in Canada, lots of people have Canadian flags, and display them all the time. I was quite surprised to see that not at all the case when I was in Germany. My guess is that after the WM people will go back to their ordinary non-flaginess.

Somebody hold me, please.

:fluffle:

*holds WYTYG for a moment

Don't worry, it'll pass. It's very much the same during every football worldcup I lived through so far, but I guess it might be even worse this time.

And I know the uneasy feeling that you get from seeing this many flags. I wouldn't actually say that you get that feeling because of Germany's history, it's more of a certain detachment that resulted from it. You're used to regarding your country in a very critical way, and any form of emotional national pride just feels wrong.

so cheering for your side, at home in the worlds biggest sporting occasion is akin to a rise in nazism? :rolleyes:

or maybe its just a healthy manifistation of national and sporting pride?

so cheering for your side, at home in the worlds biggest sporting occasion is akin to a rise in nazism? :rolleyes:

or maybe its just a health manifistation of national and sporting pride

So, cheering for your military overseas in the world's biggest occupation since WW II is akin to a rise in nazism? :rolleyes:

So, cheering for your military overseas in the world's biggest occupation since WW II is akin to a rise in nazism? :rolleyes:
Yes.

Yes.

Run along now.

So, cheering for your military overseas in the world's biggest occupation since WW II is akin to a rise in nazism? :rolleyes:

what are you talking about?

Aw, thanks for the holding, guys. *sniff*

Don't worry, it'll pass. It's very much the same during every football worldcup I lived through so far, but I guess it might be even worse this time.
I have *never* seen anything like this (regarding the German flag, that is).

And I know the uneasy feeling that you get from seeing this many flags. I wouldn't actually say that you get that feeling because of Germany's history, it's more of a certain detachment that resulted from it. You're used to regarding your country in a very critical way, and any form of emotional national pride just feels wrong. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It really does feel "just wrong". It was terrible. I honestly found myself standing in the supermarket parking lot glancing around at the flag-festooned cars like I had suddenly stepped into a Neo Nazi compound. It literally gave me goosebumps (and it's like 30°C here...).

Because, like Coral Islands said, it's just *so* unusual for us to see people flying the flag, let alone in these numbers.

what are you talking about?
It would ruin the joke to have to explain it to you.

Will this help make German nationalism becoming socially acceptable again? Are all the Bild readers happily dusting off their flags and their "German pride" to show the world that "we are somebody again"?


I don't think anybody will care as long as there aren't any shouts of "Sieg Heil"

do you not think associating all germans and their flag (not the german flag the nazi's actually used, which is the most bizarre point of the thread) is, well, appalingly racist?

Yeah, since when is Germany not allowed to express national pride? It doesn't mean there will be a resurgence in Nazism, by no means. I do hope Germany does well, I always like to see the host do well in a tournament cos it's by far one of the best excuses to be proud (South Korea in 2002, France in 1998). Even though this year I'm for Argentina and Italy, as I said if Germany does well again I won't be surprised or concerned about a resurgence of fascism. All around I just hope the final is Brazil-free and exciting. :p

Oh, and DK, if you don't have anything productive to add to the thread, which is a rarity in itself, I suggest you step back. This is about football, not your ubersocialist ramblings. :)

Aw, thanks for the holding, guys. *sniff*


I have *never* seen anything like this (regarding the German flag, that is).

I guess this is simply because I'm older... :(
Anyway, I've seen a fair amount of flag waving in 1989, and then again in 1990 for the world cup. They always stop after a while.


Yeah, you're absolutely right. It really does feel "just wrong". It was terrible. I honestly found myself standing in the supermarket parking lot glancing around at the flag-festooned cars like I had suddenly stepped into a Neo Nazi compound. It literally gave me goosebumps (and it's like 30°C here...).

Because, like Coral Islands said, it's just *so* unusual for us to see people flying the flag, let alone in these numbers.

I don't even normally make the Neo Nazi association, and it would still make me feel very uneasy.
But then again, the only flag-waving people in Germany normally are Neo Nazis.

But this isn't every other nation, and we haven't had an easy relationship with flag-waving for the past 60 years, and it's not like there isn't a reason for that.
Yeah. And people like you are the reason it stuck this long.

So yeah, maybe you think I'm just paranoid
You most certainly are. Green party supporter? Or PDS-SED?

Will this help make German nationalism becoming socially acceptable again? Are all the Bild readers happily dusting off their flags and their "German pride" to show the world that "we are somebody again"?
I most certainly hope so.

so cheering for your side, at home in the worlds biggest sporting occasion is akin to a rise in nazism? :rolleyes:

or maybe its just a healthy manifistation of national and sporting pride?
You can keep those rolleyes, I didn't say that.

It's just that this is the first time I have *ever* seen any flag display like this in this country, and we *are* raised to be very critical towards all kinds of nationalism (and btw - "nationalism" does not equal "nazism").

I don't mean to spoil anyone's fun, but, as a German, it does leave me queasy.

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sf/no.gif

Somebody hold me, please.
Chill! (might be hard to do in this weather)
There's nothing wrong with being proud. So long as we continue to send three times as many people to the counterdemonstrations as the right-wing extremists manage to muster. After all, the world cup is in Germany, and there's no reason to take down the flags just because we aren't playing today. :)

But if you want me to hold you, you'd have to wait until next weekend and give me your address... =P

You can keep those rolleyes, I didn't say that.

It's just that this is the first time I have *ever* seen any flag display like this in this country, and we *are* raised to be very critical towards all kinds of nationalism (and btw - "nationalism" does not equal "nazism").

I don't mean to spoil anyone's fun, but, as a German, it does leave me queasy.

Germans have every right to cheer for their football team.

Its nationalisim!! yay!

do you not think associating all germans and their flag (not the german flag the nazi's actually used, which is the most bizarre point of the thread) is, well, appalingly racist?

There's something missing in that sentence.

Also, you may notice I said we had a difficult relationship to flag-waving, not to, say, the specific colors or meaning of the current flag, obviously.

There's something missing in that sentence.

Also, you may notice I said we had a difficult relationship to flag-waving, not to, say, the specific colors or meaning of the current flag, obviously.

Well, you have the same national anthem, minus a few verses.

Still, there's no reason to get upset about waving the flag - it is Germany's team - not like it's a team representing the Union of Concerned Citizens. So in a way, a team's emblem may be considered the flag of the country the team represents. Or vice versa.

Everyone else waves their flags.

Well, you have the same national anthem, minus a few verses.

Still, there's no reason to get upset about waving the flag - it is Germany's team - not like it's a team representing the Union of Concerned Citizens. So in a way, a team's emblem may be considered the flag of the country the team represents. Or vice versa.

Everyone else waves their flags.

That's a logical explanation. I've told myself the same thing on numerous occasions. It just won't make that queasy feeling go away, though.

I guess this is simply because I'm older... :( I don't think you are, actually. ;)

Anyway, I've seen a fair amount of flag waving in 1989, and then again in 1990 for the world cup. They always stop after a while.
Of course, sure, and I'm fine with this (well, I still might flinch a bit once in a while) because then it's something I can understand.
I mean, 4 years ago, when we lost in the final to Brazil, I was in downtown Berlin and everybody was going crazy with joy and the streets were all black-red-gold. No problem with that (so this also answers everybody who asked if the Germans can't even cheer for their team now).

It's just... so much more now. And just because we host the World Cup doesn't mean we have to hang the twentyfold amount of flags, does it?

Beacuse, yeah, that will make me uneasy, because, as Cabra said,
the only flag-waving people in Germany normally are Neo Nazis.. Which, again, does *not* mean that I think that people flying the flag are Neo Nazis! But it explains why I felt icky enough to come here and start this thread.


But yeah, I guess Laerod is right. Chill! (might be hard to do in this weather)
There's nothing wrong with being proud. So long as we continue to send three times as many people to the counterdemonstrations as the right-wing extremists manage to muster. After all, the world cup is in Germany, and there's no reason to take down the flags just because we aren't playing today. You know, that practical argument at the end actually really makes sense. :)

Still, there's no reason to get upset about waving the flag - it is Germany's team - not like it's a team representing the Union of Concerned Citizens. So in a way, a team's emblem may be considered the flag of the country the team represents. Or vice versa.

Everyone else waves their flags.
True *sigh*. (also, the "Union of Concerned Citizens" made me laugh :p)


Yet just as true: That's a logical explanation. I've told myself the same thing on numerous occasions. It just won't make that queasy feeling go away, though. This basically expresses my whole OP in two sentences.

The Flag-waving has equally increased in England this year, and this too makes me feel queasy...though maybe because i once lived in Berlin also. I guess the reason I feel this way is because when I talk to many of the 'flag-wavers' or other Patriotic Fans, I often find their opinions to indeed be very Racist- although I wouldn't accuse the average footie fan of being a Nazi, I know for a fact that many do believe 'their' nation to be Superior to others(not just at Football).
In fact I hate Flag-waving in all countries---though probably because I hate what national Flags represent: the Nation-State and Patriotism.

Although I wouldn't condemn flag-waving at a Sporting Event-if used to support a certain team(rather than a certain nation)--though to some of you that may be the same......

-snip-
It's crazy in Holland as well. A couple of days ago, I went past a street in which every singe building was covered in orange flags, and those flags were visible everywhere. They were up before the tournament even started, and Holland didn't play 'til two days ago. Then again, the Dutch seem to take their football very seriously...

God forbid any Germans make a speech!
Oh god, what if they wear a blue tuxedo!
OH GOD! OH GOD!
Germans are all nazis right? Yeah, that seems to be the flow of this thread.

God forbid any Germans make a speech!
Oh god, what if they wear a blue tuxedo!
OH GOD! OH GOD!
Germans are all nazis right? Yeah, that seems to be the flow of this thread.

Interesting... especially since the OP and a number of posters are German themselves.

God forbid any Germans make a speech!
Oh god, what if they wear a blue tuxedo!
OH GOD! OH GOD!
Germans are all nazis right? Yeah, that seems to be the flow of this thread.

"That seems to be the flow of this thread"? Have you even read this thread?

Okay, so I'm supposed to be studying, meaning I don't get out much these days. So today was the first time I really went outside since the World Cup started.

There are flags everywhere. German flags.

I live in Berlin, so of course there are also flags of other nations hanging off balconies or in front of little shops and cafés. But what I can't get over are the dozens of German flags I've seen just on my little round to get some groceries. There are tons of cars flying two or even three small German flags our of their windows. The German team doesn't even play today.

This is seriously creeping me out.

I cheer on our team as much as the next person, and if you're going to see a game in the stadium or on a public screen, sure, go ahead and paint the black-red-gold on your face.

But I have to admit I get queasy when I turn on the TV and see just masses of German flags being waved in front of the TV cameras at the open air screens. And passing dozens and dozens of cars flying the German flag even though we're not even playing today just boggles my mind.

And I guess I know that every other nation would do the same, and that most people who fly the flag mean no harm whatsoever and are just happy that we're hosting the World Cup (or something).

But this isn't every other nation, and we haven't had an easy relationship with flag-waving for the past 60 years, and it's not like there isn't a reason for that.

So yeah, maybe you think I'm just paranoid (I'm guessing that especially for Americans it must be hard to understand how flying your own flag isn't the most natural thing in the world), but I'm actually quite shaken.

Will this help make German nationalism becoming socially acceptable again? Are all the Bild readers happily dusting off their flags and their "German pride" to show the world that "we are somebody again"?

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sf/no.gif

Somebody hold me, please.

I'm just curious how old you are. I'd appreciate an honest answer. Thx...

"That seems to be the flow of this thread"? Have you even read this thread?

Yes you're talking about how you shouldn't wave flags because somehow that directly makes you a showing of Nazism.

God forbid any Germans make a speech!
Oh god, what if they wear a blue tuxedo!
OH GOD! OH GOD!
Germans are all nazis right? Yeah, that seems to be the flow of this thread.

what nonesense!!! haven't read it have u? actually one of the more interesting threads on here...

It's crazy in Holland as well. A couple of days ago, I went past a street in which every singe building was covered in orange flags, and those flags were visible everywhere. They were up before the tournament even started, and Holland didn't play 'til two days ago. Then again, the Dutch seem to take their football very seriously...
Yeah, but we come up with the strangest ways of showing it. Gah all those silly hats should be burnt and banned.:headbang:

I'm just curious how old you are. I'd appreciate an honest answer. Thx...

33.

And while I'm almost curious as to what you're going to make of this information, I'll have to excuse myself and go watch Croatia lose me 5€... :p

Okay, so I'm supposed to be studying,
But I have to admit I get queasy when I turn on the TV and see just masses of German flags being waved in front of the TV cameras at the open air screens

Barf!
How dare Germans display, faith in their country!
Ugh, you're right, all Germans should hide all their culture.

Grow up kid.

Yes you're talking about how you shouldn't wave flags because somehow that directly makes you a showing of Nazism.


Not the case at all-I said that this equally applies in England and all other countries-not just Germany because of its Nazi past. to me its more about Patriatism itself--how can you be proud of something that you have had no or very little input into.

Barf!
How dare Germans display, faith in their country!
Ugh, you're right, all Germans should hide all their culture.

Grow up kid.

I'd more readily barf at blatant nationalism.

Barf!
How dare Germans display, faith in their country!
Ugh, you're right, all Germans should hide all their culture.

Grow up kid.

If you knew the first thing about German culture, you'd know that the German flag is not part of it.

Yes you're talking about how you shouldn't wave flags because somehow that directly makes you a showing of Nazism.

No. We're talking about what kind of mixed feelings excessive flag-waving will induce in most Germans.

Not the case at all-I said that this equally applies in England and all other countries-not just Germany because of its Nazi past. to me its more about Patriatism itself--how can you be proud of something that you have had no or very little input into.

I'm not talking about being proud of Hitler for fuck sakes.
I'm talking about being proud of your country, you know, where you live.
The fact that he is saying Germans should destroy any trace of patriotism is sickening.

No. We're talking about what kind of mixed feelings excessive flag-waving will induce in most Germans.
Like I said not just Germans--I am English/Spanish and these feelings are induced in me when seeing English/Spanish/German/US Flags

I'm not talking about being proud of Hitler for fuck sakes.
I'm talking about being proud of your country, you know, where you live.
The fact that he is saying Germans should destroy any trace of patriotism is sickening.

Who is saying that, exactly?

I'm not talking about being proud of Hitler for fuck sakes.
I'm talking about being proud of your country, you know, where you live.
The fact that he is saying Germans should destroy any trace of patriotism is sickening.
Exactly-I didn't say flag waver are nazi supporters-merely that the fact people can feel Patriatich about any country make me feel sick!!!

Exactly-I didn't say flag waver are nazi supporters-merely that the fact people can feel Patriatich about any country make me feel sick!!!

So you're saying tht nobody should like where they live?
Anarchist?

I'm not talking about being proud of Hitler for fuck sakes.
I'm talking about being proud of your country, you know, where you live.
The fact that he is saying Germans should destroy any trace of patriotism is sickening.
Yes I do believe Germans and all other should destroy any trace of Patriotism!! As a Brit, I cannot be proud of being British as I did not choose to be British. I cannot be Proud of being British-having studied some of the History of Britain- and I cannot be proud to be Human- looking at the current state of the world!!

So you're saying tht nobody should like where they live?
Anarchist?

Meh... pointless. I like living in Ireland, but if I see more than 3 flags on O'Connell Street, I turn around and walk away - fast.

So you're saying tht nobody should like where they live?
Anarchist?
No like where you live-if you don't then move- but that doesn't mean you have to be proud of the fact that it just so happened you were born in a certain place

Exactly-I didn't say flag waver are nazi supporters-merely that the fact people can feel Patriatich about any country make me feel sick!!!

You got a delicate stomach. And how old are you?

Barf!
How dare Germans display, faith in their country!
Ugh, you're right, all Germans should hide all their culture.
Yeah. It's appaling. There should be lichterketten to apoligize.

You got a delicate stomach. And how old are you?
Indeed i have a vulnerable digestive system and swallowing some of the stuff on here isn't doing me any good... I don't think my age really matters, but I'm 20 nevertheless

I think patriotism is stupid too. It's as silly as being proud to be white.

Yeah. It's appaling. There should be lichterketten to apoligize.

:rolleyes:
Nobody is accusing anybody of anything. Who would you want to apologize to this time?

As an American, I can state without difficulty my utter ignorance to this feeling of anxiety you feel toward patriotism. I can look out of my window right now and see the American flag flying in my back yard. I suppose its not fair for me to assume that you guys are weird and not me, because my country hasn't had the experience dictators that yours has.

Of course, I think patriotism can be an effective deterrant of dictatorships, even though it is often used as a dictator's tool. For example, when I see the American flag, I not only think about the achievements of my country at home, but also the worldwide legacy, though it is often underappreciated. Patriotism at the sight of the American flag, to me, is the thought of the birth of modern Democracy.

Democracy and Liberty... that's something to have patriotism for. And I don't see why Germans shouldn't feel the same about their great country, however troubled their past. Ich bin ein Berliner, dude(tte), you can say it with pride. Your country endured A LOT, and now it's a DEMOCRACY.

I don't see flag waving to be derogitory. In your case and in mine, it's a symbol of the triumph of liberty. And it's no different from grown men getting teary-eyed at the singing of their national anthem on a soccer field.

Sure, nobody should take the stance "my country right or wrong," but a little national pride is what makes things like the World Cup exciting.

I think patriotism is stupid too. It's as silly as being proud to be white.
Its exactly like being proud to be white-which would be considered racist by many(including me)--Patriotism only stimultates Xenophobia.

Indeed i have a vulnerable digestive system and swallowing some of the stuff on here isn't doing me any good... I don't think my age really matters, but I'm 20 nevertheless

Really? I was expecting you to be much younger...Oh well...Anyone's entitled to their opinions. As long as you dont beat flag waivers or something, you are entitled to being sick of them....

I cannot be proud to be Human- looking at the current state of the world!!

So, kill yourself.

:rolleyes:
Nobody is accusing anybody of anything.
You don't get it do you? Everytime a German makes stuff like this into an issue theres always a hint of accusation.
Who would you want to apologize to this time?
Oh. That doesn't realy matter. As long as there is something to apologize for. If there isn't we'll come up with something for sure.

Really? I was expecting you to be much younger...Oh well...Anyone's entitled to their opinions. As long as you dont beat flag waivers or something, you are entitled to being sick of them....
By the way, what does his/her age have to do with anything? Does it invalidate the opinion somehow?

Really? I was expecting you to be much younger...Oh well...Anyone's entitled to their opinions. As long as you dont beat flag waivers or something, you are entitled to being sick of them....
Yes Really...no iwould never beat or insult a flagwaver-as I respect their right to do so-I just believe that many of those doing it don't have that kind of respect for others(eg: foreign flag-wavers)

As an American, I can state without difficulty my utter ignorance to this feeling of anxiety you feel toward patriotism. I can look out of my window right now and see the American flag flying in my back yard. I suppose its not fair for me to assume that you guys are weird and not me, because my country hasn't had an experience with a dictator.

Of course, I think patriotism can be an effective deterrant of dictatorships, even though it is often used as a dictator's tool. For example, when I see the American flag, I not only think about the achievements of my country at home, but also the worldwide legacy, though it is often underappreciated. Patriotism at the sight of the American flag, to me, is the thought of the birth of modern Democracy.

Democracy and Liberty... that's something to have patriotism for. And I don't see why Germans shouldn't feel the same about their great country, however troubled their past. Ich bin ein Berliner, dude(tte), you can say it with pride. Your country endured A LOT, and now it's a DEMOCRACY.

I don't see flag waving to be derogitory. In your case and in mine, it's a symbol of the triumph of liberty. And it's no different from grown men getting teary-eyed at the singing of their national anthem on a soccer field.

Sure, nobody should take the stance "my country right or wrong," but a little national pride is what makes things like the World Cup exciting.


Anxiety is the wrong word. Better call it a very, very deep mistrust towards anything emotionally-patriotic, paired with a good dose of scepticism towards anyone who openly displays such emotions or would even try to make use of them in any way.
And, to be honest, I regard that as part of the achievements of Germany after the war. A development away from any form of excessive emotion when it comes to politics and away from nationalist ideals.

So, kill yourself.
or try to make it better

You don't get it do you? Everytime a German makes stuff like this into an issue theres always a hint of accusation.


It hasn't to me. I'm German, and I don't feel accused.

I guess the OP isn't used to the rampant flag waving more common in certain other Western nations...

I guess the OP isn't used to the rampant flag waving more common in certain other Western nations...
most people in europe(and elsewhere) know about the rampant flg-waving across the atlantic, but I think that over here it is relatively new--in the UK it has increased dramatically over the last 10 years...

Anxiety is the wrong word. Better call it a very, very deep mistrust towards anything emotionally-patriotic, paired with a good dose of scepticism towards anyone who openly displays such emotions or would even try to make use of them in any way.
And, to be honest, I regard that as part of the achievements of Germany after the war. A development away from any form of excessive emotion when it comes to politics and away from nationalist ideals.

Ok, sure. Like I said, I don't live there, I haven't even been there, so I don't know. But there's that sense of national achievement... ;)

most people in europe(and elsewhere) know about the rampant flg-waving across the atlantic, but I think that over here it is relatively new--in the UK it has increased dramatically over the last 10 years...
It's becoming slightly more common here in Canada...though I'm hoping that won't be a permanent trend. WE KNOW WHAT THE FLAG LOOKS LIKE ALREADY.

Good for Germans! They are showing their support and their love towards their country.

RUNNNNNN!!! NEO-NAZI SMILIESS!!!!!

http://www.coolsmilies.net/flags/gerna.gif http://www.coolsmilies.net/flags/gerna.gif
http://www.coolsmilies.net/flags/gerna.gif

RUNNNNNN!!! NEO-NAZI SMILIESS!!!!!

http://www.coolsmilies.net/flags/gerna.gif http://www.coolsmilies.net/flags/gerna.gif
http://www.coolsmilies.net/flags/gerna.gif

You still don't get it, do you?

You still don't get it, do you?

Hehe... he doesn't want to, I guess. I bet he'll ask you your age next... :D

I understand the feeling of worry you get when a massive sporting event occurs in/with a team from your city or nation. It's like people's brains have suddenly fled their heads. I don't think you need to worry about a rise in nationalism because of things like this, because it will soon be forgotten in the humdrum of every day life. While I'm sure things are very different culturally on this side of the Atlantic, I'm fairly sure that people go crazy over any kind of sporting event no matter where they are from.

It will all be over soon anyway (I think) and the flags will go away and people's common sense will return to them again.

I'm German, I've never voted CDU or further right, and I live in England.

I see no problem at all with waving flags, as long as it's the democratic Federal Republic flag in Black, Red and Gold and not the one with the Iron Cross, Prussian Eagle or the Hakenkreuz on it. (With those latter three I see indeed a big problem.)

When the World Cup is over, the flags will be taken down and rot in attics and wardrobes.

Our house in England is flagged: Black-Red-Gold in one window and Cross of St George in the other. When Germany is out, I'll take the flag down.

I'm (snip) Hitler for fuck sakes.
I'm (snip) saying Germans should destroy (snip)

I am so wrong for that.

.....any trace of patriotism is sickening.

:D


Btw, what's a World Cup?:p

I am so sick to see that if Germans wave with their flags, evrybody start to "oh noes, teh evil nazis are back"... Problem is that i see fiew Germans on this forum with the same aditude. Why? Are you afraid of the Nazis? Are you ashamed for being Germans?

Germans have right to wave with Hakenkruz or with an old imperial flags, it is thier history and it's part of what they are. And i think that old imperial flag is much prettier than black/red/yellow tricolour. If you are an German - get out on the streets and for the FIRST time in your life be proud ti be German!

I am so sick to see that if Germans wave with their flags, evrybody start to "oh noes, teh evil nazis are back"... Problem is that i see fiew Germans on this forum with the same aditude. Why? Are you afraid of the Nazis? Are you ashamed for being Germans?

Germans have right to wave with Hakenkruz or with an old imperial flags, it is thier history and it's part of what they are. And i think that old imperial flag is much prettier than black/red/yellow tricolour. If you are an German - get out on the streets and for the FIRST time in your life be proud ti be German!

What's there to be proud about?

Ok, hisotry lesson, kid.
The old imperial flag was in fact the old Prussian flag. Prussia used to be a ountry that occupied about 2/3 of the Northern half of Germany. Prussia is most famous for its military oppressive regime over large parts of the rest of Germanyt. You may guess how much sympathy that particular flag would get in, say, Cologne or Hamburg.

The black/red/gold tricolour was the flag flown by the insurgents during the rebellion of 1848, a revolution that had among its goals the overthrow of the Prussian regime and the foundation of a German sate (up until that point, it had been a more or less loosely organised federation of innumeable small states and countries).

Germans do in fact NOT have the right to fly a swastika flag, it's a punishable offense to do so.

And, believe it or not, one thing I'm honestly proud about regarding Germany is the fact that Germans on the whole distrust any form of nationalism or loud-mouthed patriotism. I'm in fact proud that you normally wouldn't see flags in Germany other than on official buildings.

or try to make it better


With your attitude .. good luck! Pessimists just loooove being miserable and finding fault.

What's there to be proud about?
Center of culture, most advanced country in the Europe, third in the world, after it's been completly destroyed 60 years ago, hardworking, disciplined, honorable...

Ok, hisotry lesson, kid.
The old imperial flag was in fact the old Prussian flag. Prussia used to be a ountry that occupied about 2/3 of the Northern half of Germany. Prussia is most famous for its military oppressive regime over large parts of the rest of Germanyt. You may guess how much sympathy that particular flag would get in, say, Cologne or Hamburg.
I know that, i just stated that Old Imperial flag looks nicer to me

The black/red/gold tricolour was the flag flown by the insurgents during the rebellion of 1848, a revolution that had among its goals the overthrow of the Prussian regime and the foundation of a German sate (up until that point, it had been a more or less loosely organised federation of innumeable small states and countries).
Didn't know that, thou i have always wondered why. What's with Black/White/Red flag?

Germans do in fact NOT have the right to fly a swastika flag, it's a punishable offense to do so.
Yes, like it is in most European contries

And, believe it or not, one thing I'm honestly proud about regarding Germany is the fact that Germans on the whole distrust any form of nationalism or loud-mouthed patriotism. I'm in fact proud that you normally wouldn't see flags in Germany other than on official buildings.
I am sure that you know better than me, because i am not an German

Center of culture, most advanced country in the Europe, third in the world, after it's been completly destroyed 60 years ago, hardworking, disciplined, honorable...

Used to be. But the country still can live quite well off its reputation in the rest of the world, it would seem.



Didn't know that, thou i have always wondered why. What's with Black/White/Red flag?

That IS the German imperial flag.


Yes, like it is in most European contries

No, that piece of legislation is unique to Germany, and possibly Austria, I'm not 100% sure on that.


I am sure that you know better than me, because i am not an German

In that case, you might not want to tell Germans how to feel about their country and their history. Or their flags for that matter.

Okay, I've read everything and there were some good points made.


- I still agree 100% with Cabra West, and I think she managed to put everything more succinctly than I did, so just go read her posts. :p



- I do *not* think that OMGTEHNAZIS!!11!! are upon us again just because people are cheering on our national football team. Duh.

And my rational side does of course totally agree with everybody who wrote that Germany has just as much right to wave their flag as every other nation and should not feel "bad" about it, and that this is just typical temporary and fun soccer fever.

Yet this *is* awfully unusual to see here. Like Cabra said, pretty much the only times you see people waving the flag, aside from international sporting events, is in the context of the far right nationalist movements - of course, those usually go with the old flags, not the black-red-gold, but still, it's just something that is... not really done. I don't know.
Maybe I'm too old and the people younger than me have less "issues" with that. (Though I'm not so sure if that would be a good thing, tbh).

It's pretty hard to explain to foreigners (and, as you may have gathered from this thread, it's not like all Germans would agree with me) but I know that while I wouldn't think much of it if somebody decorated their balcony with the flag during the World Cup, I would certainly do a very uneasy double-take if somebody did so *outside* of the World Cup. It's just not something you do, because, for most Germans, it implies overly nationalist sentiments.

So what threw me so much today as to actually go and make a thread about it is really the sheer *volume* of flags, plus the fact that the "flags from car windows" thing has *never* been used on that scale for anything outside the actual celebration of a sporting victory (or a surprising second place, as in the 2002 world cup) instead of just because we're simply hosting the damn thing.

And everybody knows that there are lots of people who would love nothing more than for German nationalism become salonfähig, i.e. societally acceptable, again. And I don't like that one bit. And that rejecting nationalism does not equal advocating self-consciousness and guilt feelings should be obvious, so you can save your breath, Von Witzleben.



- Don't think I just pulled this topic out of my ass, btw, it has been discussed in Germany ever since the World Cup got closer and closer.

The most prominently displayed tabloid at my newsstand today, the BZ, devoted its cover to Berlin policemen protesting against their top commissioner for not being allowed to carry flags. The online version of the article is written in the typical whiny "Us poor little Germans can't even be proud of our country, boohoo" style so beloved by the tabloids and certain posters here.

And, coincidentally, I just got a newsletter from a website that has apparently decided to change their banner colors into black-red-gold for the World Cup, and they started the newsletter with this:
"Wunderliches geschieht in Deutschland. Sogar die Politiker trauen sich neuerdings, mit einer Fahne durch die Gegend zu laufen." which translates as something like "Wondrous things are underway in Germany. Even politicians dare to walk around sporting a flag these days."



So, basically, what I'm saying is that I'm uneasy about most of these wondrous changes and hope they're indeed only temporary.

- Don't think I just pulled this topic out of my ass, btw, it has been discussed in Germany ever since the World Cup got closer and closer.

The most prominently displayed tabloid at my newsstand today, the BZ, devoted its cover to Berlin policemen protesting against their top commissioner's for not being allowed to carry flags. The online version of the article is written in the typical whiny "Us poor little Germans can't even be proud of our country, boohoo" style so beloved by the tabloids and certain posters here.

And, coincidentally, I just got a newsletter from a website that has apparently decided to change their banner colors into black-red-gold for the World Cup, and they started the newsletter with this:
"Wunderliches geschieht in Deutschland. Sogar die Politiker trauen sich neuerdings, mit einer Fahne durch die Gegend zu laufen." which translates as something like "Wondrous things are underway in Germany. Even politicians dare to walk around sporting a flag these days."



So, basically, all I'm saying is that I'm uneasy about most of these wondrous changes and hope they're indeed only temporary.

I'm not surprised by the press coverage... did the Bildzeitung write about it? It's a very simple recipe : make whatever you write as controversial as possible, it'll boost sales.
Surprisingly, I have enough confidence in the German public to believe that they'll simply pack away the falgs once the celebrations are over. They did so after the fall of the Berlin Wall, they did so after they became football world champions in 1990, they did so after every European championship they won. It's a temporary thing, trust me.

In that case, you might not want to tell Germans how to feel about their country and their history. Or their flags for that matter.

Oh please, don't invade me, i was just trying to be polite!:D (just joking, just joking, ho hard felings?):D

Oh please, don't invade me, i was just trying to be polite!:D (just joking, just joking, ho hard felings?):D

Hah. I'll raise and Irish army and.... *looks around ... Ah, forget it. No problem. :D

I'm not surprised by the press coverage... did the Bildzeitung write about it? It's a very simple recipe : make whatever you write as controversial as possible, it'll boost sales.

I don't know if *any* other paper wrote about this, though I can't imagine Bild letting this slip through their grimy fingers. If you want a quick puke, here's the link (http://bz.berlin1.de/aktuell/berlin/060613/flagge.html) to the story, which is all of a handful of sentences long and consists of nothing but whiny, polemic bullshit.

Can you tell I hate tabloids? :p


Surprisingly, I have enough confidence in the German public to believe that they'll simply pack away the falgs once the celebrations are over. They did so after the fall of the Berlin Wall, they did so after they became football world champions in 1990, they did so after every European championship they won. It's a temporary thing, trust me.
Okay, I will *nods*.
Plus, I'm slightly heartened by the fact the BZ itself had 51% of Berliners in a representative (so they say) poll (http://bz.berlin1.de/aktuell/berlin/060613/flagge1.html) agree with the flag ban for policemen.

Flag-waiving has a tendency to be a surrogate pleasure.

Living in Germany as a non-German I really appreaciated the marked moderation about people "being proud" of an abstract nationhood that individuals had not personally contributed to. It's something the rest of the world could learn from, including my own home(s).

Not that I think there is anything bad about having a certain nationality - there just isn't anything inherently good about it either.

There are no doubt people whose agenda it is to take the critical bite out of historical self-awareness. BILD would certainly be part of that. But Germany is also the country of Lichterketten. I wouldn't worry so much, just yet. I'm in England now and although the bigots love to fly the flag, they are not the only ones - in fact there is something of an attempt by other sections of society to take it away from them.

The Neo-Nazis themselves are only so keen on the liberal '48 flag.

Living in Germany as a non-German I really appreaciated the marked moderation about people "being proud" of an abstract nationhood that individuals had not personally contributed to. It's something the rest of the world could learn from, including my own home(s).
That's good to hear, actually. *is super-proud of Germany now* :p

See, they even have a sense of humour. The Sun lied!

Oh yes, of course.

I would like to lock up all tabloid hacks from BILD and Sun and all the rest in a room and let them fight out their national prejudice. Meanwhile us other people could tell each other a better jokes.

What's there to be proud about?

Ok, hisotry lesson, kid.
The old imperial flag was in fact the old Prussian flag. Prussia used to be a ountry that occupied about 2/3 of the Northern half of Germany. Prussia is most famous for its military oppressive regime over large parts of the rest of Germanyt. You may guess how much sympathy that particular flag would get in, say, Cologne or Hamburg.

The black/red/gold tricolour was the flag flown by the insurgents during the rebellion of 1848, a revolution that had among its goals the overthrow of the Prussian regime and the foundation of a German sate (up until that point, it had been a more or less loosely organised federation of innumeable small states and countries).
Oh please. Learn the Prussian history before you start giving lessons about it.:rolleyes:

maybe its just a healthy manifistation of national and sporting pride?

I am not so sure there is such a thing as healthy national pride. As an American I have been very uncomfortable about the way our flag has been used by some these past five years to silence opposition to the government and as an expression of zenophobic nationalism.

Patriotism and nationalism creep me out. Too much robotic groupthink going on.

It's pretty hard to explain to foreigners (and, as you may have gathered from this thread, it's not like all Germans would agree with me) but I know that while I wouldn't think much of it if somebody decorated their balcony with the flag during the World Cup, I would certainly do a very uneasy double-take if somebody did so *outside* of the World Cup. It's just not something you do, because, for most Germans, it implies overly nationalist sentiments.
Yeah. And misplaced guilt-feelings have absolutely nothing to do with it right?
Which, by your own admission, you are raised to have.


And everybody knows that there are lots of people who would love nothing more than for German nationalism become salonfähig, i.e. societally acceptable, again. And I don't like that one bit.
Thats pretty obviouse. Otherwise you wouldn't have pulled the old, crooked Nazi-club and started this thread.


And that rejecting nationalism does not equal advocating self-consciousness and guilt feelings should be obvious, so you can save your breath, Von Witzleben.
Pff...it does in your case. Like it does with the rest of the so called anständigen.


- Don't think I just pulled this topic out of my ass, btw, it has been discussed in Germany ever since the World Cup got closer and closer.
Among other things.


The most prominently displayed tabloid at my newsstand today, the BZ, devoted its cover to Berlin policemen protesting against their top commissioner for not being allowed to carry flags. The online version of the article is written in the typical whiny "Us poor little Germans can't even be proud of our country, boohoo" style so beloved by the tabloids and certain posters here.

Eventhough I always read the BZ with a soup spoon of salt they are right this time.

Now that one was creepy.

Now that one was creepy.
My post?

Germany seems to finally be growing a backbone. All the better.

Let's just retire flags altogether. What good are they? They are just a remnant of 19th century Romantic Nationalism, and who needs all that crap?

My post?
Yes, I daresay it somehow it lacked the self-irony I have come to appreciate among my friends in Germany. You seemed a little to serious and, I suspect, but do not know, rather romantic about things Prussian.

Germany seems to finally be growing a backbone. All the better.

Did you understand the OP's point? Backbone has not usually been Germany's problem, except when it comes to denouncing neighbours for personal gain. I can think of several regimes under which that thrived. That's why a more critical perspective is so refreshing.

Did you understand the OP's point? Backbone has not usually been Germany's problem, except when it comes to denouncing neighbours for personal gain. I can think of several regimes under which that thrived. That's why a more critical perspective is so refreshing.
The OP, quite frankly, seems to be confused about whether this is a good or bad thing. I find Germany's self-loathing unhealthy an attitude for it to hold, especially when the rest of the world has since moved on.

As for it being critical, I am not so sure. It seems to be born out of confusion moreso than anything else.

Yes, I daresay it somehow it lacked the self-irony I have come to appreciate among my friends in Germany.
Self irony is something Germans simply do not have.

You seemed a little to serious and, I suspect, but do not know, rather romantic about things Prussian.
I do? Prussia was no better or worse then the rest of Europe of that age. And trying to make it into an opressive, agressive, miltitary dictatorship simply is not true.

I do? Prussia was no better or worse then the rest of Europe of that age. And trying to make it into an opressive, agressive, miltitary dictatorship simply is not true.
Have you forgotten? It is a favourite liberal passtime.

Have you forgotten? It is a favourite liberal passtime.
Oh right.

The OP, quite frankly, seems to be confused about whether this is a good or bad thing. I find Germany's self-loathing unhealthy an attitude for it to hold, especially when the rest of the world has since moved on.

I see what you mean, but self-loathing doesn't adequately describe it. The lesson to be learned from Nazism is that even in the most advanced civilizations there may lurk sinister tendencies of which we should always be mindful. We need to keep an eye open close to home, and that does not just apply to Germany.

Most Germans have dealt with the past better than conservatives in Japan, for instance. But that's a national generalisation of limited explanatory value. Some Germans have learned very little and yearn for traditional nationalism as medicine against self-criticism. That's no more than willful ignorance. It's why I vastly prefer those who can criticise the past and in so doing not repeat its errors. Germany's best cultural ambassadors in otehr countries have not gone around praising the nation, but simply behaved well, scuppering old prejudice without resorting to any new kind of their own.

Self irony is something Germans simply do not have.

I do? Prussia was no better or worse then the rest of Europe of that age. And trying to make it into an opressive, agressive, miltitary dictatorship simply is not true.

Then I seem to know a better class of Germans than you do. Keep trying ;)

Given a choice of states in the late 19th C to live in, I really would not choose Prussia unless I were a Prussian junker. Which most people weren't.

I say it's about damn time that we can show our support for the German team, we're just happy to host the Weltmeisterschaft in such a manner without any bad feelings.

Even I am flying a little flag on the balcony http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Deutschland.gif,
have a Fußballschal (whatever that is in English? It ain't "scarf", is it?!?),
2 Basecaps with "Deutschland" on'em (one white, one black),
and another flag (which is supposed to flown from a car window - but since I don't have a car it's in the phone pocket on the strap of my rucksack).

It's a good feeling to see so many flags in the streets and windows of shops, flown from balconies and such in manner for a sports event.

But I can tell that only the Fußball-enthusiasts in my appartment building are flying "Black, Red & Gold". http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/GermanFanblock.jpg

If you can't or don't understand - maybe you don't have the Fußballfieber or haven't realized that this is the 6th season (carnival being 5th) and that König Fußball reigns?

Deutschland! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/klatsch.gifhttp://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/klatsch.gifhttp://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/klatsch.gif
Deutschland! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/klatsch.gifhttp://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/klatsch.gifhttp://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/klatsch.gif

*snip*
I am not a fan of extreme nationalism either. Be that as it may, love for one's country is a healthy sentiment, as is a modicum of pride in it. Many Germans do indeed engage in self-hatred to the point that I find it idiotic and ludicrous. Their history is a long and glorious one, and is not simply washed away by what some fools did. Yes, practise moderation. Yet self-hatred is by no means moderation in any of its forms.

I see what you mean, but self-loathing doesn't adequately describe it.
Actually it does.

The lesson to be learned from Nazism is that even in the most advanced civilizations there may lurk sinister tendencies of which we should always be mindful. We need to keep an eye open close to home, and that does not just apply to Germany.
Because it is always reduced in the confines of these 12 years. All other acomplishments of people like Paul Nipkow or Paul Ehrlich are hardly ever mentioned. And people are terrified to be pushed into the corner of the far right. Which is a very common praxis by the advocates of selfloathers. Most prominently represented by the Green party. Hell, we had bands who proudly announced they have never and will never write or sing anything positive about Germany. We had a minister who never wanted to sing the national anthem.

Most Germans have dealt with the past better than conservatives in Japan, for instance. But that's a national generalisation of limited explanatory value. Some Germans have learned very little and yearn for traditional nationalism as medicine against self-criticism. That's no more than willful ignorance. It's why I vastly prefer those who can criticise the past and in so doing not repeat its errors. Germany's best cultural ambassadors in otehr countries have not gone around praising the nation, but simply behaved well, scuppering old prejudice without resorting to any new kind of their own.
There is no real need for those kind of cultural ambassadors.

Actually it does.
It's akin to nihilism on some levels.

Because it is always reduced in the confines of these 12 years. All other acomplishments of people like Paul Nipkow or Paul Ehrlich are hardly ever mentioned. And people are terrified to be pushed into the corner of the far right. Which is a very common praxis by the advocates of selfloathers. Most prominently represented by the Green party. Hell, we had bands who proudly announced they have never and will never write or sing anything positive about Germany. We had a minister who never wanted to sing the national anthem.
This is exactly what I mean. Germany has such a profound and magnificent history, yet people find themselves willing to hate their country for acts a bunch of idiots commited.

It's akin to nihilism on some levels.
Yeah. It's pretty depressing.

This is exactly what I mean. Germany has such a profound and magnificent history, yet people find themselves willing to hate their country for acts a bunch of idiots commited.
http://volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg.html
Here are some prime examples.

Have you forgotten? It is a favourite liberal passtime.

I don't know I would go that far.

The heart of the question here deals with a country's obligation to the past. Waving a flag implies an embrace of all that is good about a country and its past, but are we to just turn our backs on those things we are less than proud of? Doesn't the flag represent those things as well?

Should Americans just forget about the attempts to exterminate Indians and the enslavement of black people and treat it as some aberration of our history? Or do we acknowledge that we have a national responsibility for actions carried out in the name of the flag we wave so fervently today?

Flags are tricky things.

Okay, they are symbolic of the nation, but what exactly is being symbolized? Many southern Americans claim the Confederate battle flag is symbolically neutral on the issue of race and is simply an expression of pride. That argument, in my opinion, is naive and disengenious. Likewise Germans cannot simply dismiss the role of nationalism in their country's past. I think the ambiguity expressed by the author of this thread about a return of that nationalism is justified and should not just be dismissed out of hand.

Actually it does.

Because it is always reduced in the confines of these 12 years. All other acomplishments of people like Paul Nipkow or Paul Ehrlich are hardly ever mentioned. And people are terrified to be pushed into the corner of the far right. Which is a very common praxis by the advocates of selfloathers. Most prominently represented by the Green party. Hell, we had bands who proudly announced they have never and will never write or sing anything positive about Germany. We had a minister who never wanted to sing the national anthem.

There is no real need for those kind of cultural ambassadors.

Oh come one, have you read a British tabloid recently? Spoken to German exhange students in American highs schools? Chatted to almost anyone Jewish about that period in history? Ambassadors are still needed.

I'm not calling for all out anti-nationalism in Germany, I simply think that the balanced approach makes most sense. As a person, I can only take pride on what I have contributed to. That Shakespeare wrote great theatre is nothing I can pride myself on just because I was born English, or that Newton had a few good thoughts on physics. I can write a play or discuss quanta, and see what happens from there. By the same standard the average German football fan can hardly take credit for Goethe's Faust or Weber's thoughts on society. I can however draw upon that inspiration, as a free thinker of any origin.

"Healthy pride" is a reward for personal achievement.

It's akin to nihilism on some levels.

This is exactly what I mean. Germany has such a profound and magnificent history, yet people find themselves willing to hate their country for acts a bunch of idiots commited.

The bunch of idiots had a lot of help. There is a lesson there. As I said, not just for Germans.

I don't know I would go that far.

The heart of the question here deals with a country's obligation to the past. Waving a flag implies an embrace of all that is good about a country and its past, but are we to just turn our backs on those things we are less than proud of? Doesn't the flag represent those things as well?

No. Unless, in this case Germany, just popped into existence in 1933.

*snip*
Naturally a nation should be conscious of the negative actions to have tarnished it. However, when one begins ignoring its better aspects in favour of constantly lambasting it for some of its failures, then it quickly turns into nihilism. Pride in a nation should be about the positive aspects of a nation. No one is saying one is to be nationalist to the point of being ignorant. However, some pride found in a common identity is a good thing, and should not simply be sidetracked.

The bunch of idiots had a lot of help. There is a lesson there. As I said, not just for Germans.
As I said, I do not advocate nationalism to the point of ignorance. Neither, however, do I support the notion of focusing on negative aspects of a nation to a degree that is on par with nihilism.

Oh come one, have you read a British tabloid recently? Spoken to German exhange students in American highs schools? Chatted to almost anyone Jewish about that period in history? Ambassadors are still needed.
I'm not sure what you exactly mean here. Specify.


I'm not calling for all out anti-nationalism in Germany, I simply think that the balanced approach makes most sense.
If there was one. But there isn't. Quite the opposite.


As a person, I can only take pride on what I have contributed to. That Shakespeare wrote great theatre is nothing I can pride myself on just because I was born English, or that Newton had a few good thoughts on physics. I can write a play or discuss quanta, and see what happens from there. By the same standard the average German football fan can hardly take credit for Goethe's Faust or Weber's thoughts on society. I can however draw upon that inspiration, as a free thinker of any origin.
By that logic beeing proud if your team should get the cup is tabu. Since you weren't on the winning team. Or any other achievement from your friends or countrymen you had no part in.


"Healthy pride" is a reward for personal achievement.
Healthy pride in the achievements of a nation or whatever is a reward in itself.


The bunch of idiots had a lot of help. There is a lesson there. As I said, not just for Germans.
And what if they did? Is that a reason why I or anyone else of my generation should chastise ourselves for all eternity? Or believe like Neu Leonstein that everyone born before '45 had an active part as well as full knowledge of the holocaust? Or give writers awards for writing anti-German literature? And be forbidden to be pissed about it?

Yeah. It's pretty depressing.
It's almost as bad as Jante Law. That is horrible. I cannot understand how people would live their lives that way.

http://volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg.html
Here are some prime examples.
I've heard of this. I'll check up on the link. Thanks.

And what if they did? Is that a reason why I or anyone else of my generation should chastise ourselves for all eternity? Or believe like Neu Leonstein that everyone born before '45 had an active part as well as full knowledge of the holocaust? Or give writers awards for writing anti-German literature? And be forbidden to be pissed about it?

No, you and others of your generation can only be responsible for the actions of your generation. However, you must acknowledge that those events occurred BECAUSE of the very flag waving pride and nationalism you are calling for a return to. That horrible period in German history did not begin in 1933, but rather in the 19th century Volkish movement. It began with flag waving. It began with pride in country.

Rather than Germany taking its place among other proud flag-waving patriotic nations, I would rather see the rest of the world adopt German skepticism about such symbols of nationalism.

Didn't know that, thou i have always wondered why. What's with Black/White/Red flag?

As a start I would recommend these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848_in_the_German_states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

Yes, I daresay it somehow it lacked the self-irony I have come to appreciate among my friends in Germany. You seemed a little to serious and, I suspect, but do not know, rather romantic about things Prussian.
I'm half East-Prussian and I've read quite a bit about Prussian history - and while nationalism and militarism are part of that history, so is science, education and freedom of religion. It's a double-edged sword.
(Don't get me wrong - I'm still the sarcastic German with a healthy dose of self-irony if need be!)

But - right now, it's this guy's reign:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Koenig-klein.jpg

It's almost as bad as Jante Law. That is horrible. I cannot understand how people would live their lives that way.
Whats that?


I've heard of this. I'll check up on the link. Thanks.
There are some 'nice' websites under the links section on the homepage.

Whats that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law It is one of the most depressing frames of mind I have ever seen. And it is (or was) prevalent in Scandinavia. It could be dying out now.

No, you and others of your generation can only be responsible for the actions of your generation. However, you must acknowledge that those events occurred BECAUSE of the very flag waving pride and nationalism you are calling for a return to. That horrible period in German history did not begin in 1933, but rather in the 19th century Volkish movement. It began with flag waving. It began with pride in country.
No. That had nothing to do with it. Jews like Paul Ehrlich, the father of chemo therapy, had a huge part in the succes of Germany after 1871. What happend afterwards was the result of taking away that 'flagwaving'. Putting the blame as well as the reparations for the war on Germany I mean.
EDIT:
And before I forget. The loss of the Emperor.

I'm half East-Prussian and I've read quite a bit about Prussian history - and while nationalism and militarism are part of that history, so is science, education and freedom of religion. It's a double-edged sword.
Indeed. Imperial Germany, at its peak, was a shining example of an advanced nation. It led the world in every respect; be it intellectual, cultural, scientific or artistic. The extreme nationalism was a negative component. Should this lead one to take no pride in Germany (or any given nation)? I think not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law It is one of the most depressing frames of mind I have ever seen. And it is (or was) prevalent in Scandinavia. It could be dying out now.
*yuck*

*yuck*
Tell me about it...I will be studying in Sweden as of next year. I hope they have trashed this silly ideology of theirs by then. It's on the way out from what I hear though.

So you're saying tht nobody should like where they live?
Anarchist?

That's the spirit!

No. That had nothing to do with it. Jews like Paul Ehrlich, the father of chemo therapy, had a huge part in the succes of Germany after 1871. What happend afterwards was the result of taking away that 'flagwaving'. Putting the blame as well as the reparations for the war on Germany I mean.

Please don't tell me you are resurrecting that old, outdated argument of the rise of Nazism being the fault of reparations and the war guilt clause of the Versailles Treaty? By the time Hitler came to power the war had been over for 15 years and reparations had already been cancelled. Most of the reparations paid in the 1920s were actually the proceeds of American commercial loans.

The 19th century Volkish movement on the other hand was anti-Semetic, anti-democratic, nationalist, and a proponent of racial purity long before National Socialism appeared on the scene. They organized patriotic societies, denounced national minorities, particularly Jews, and created a cult of ancestors and a mystique of blood, soil, and a sacred national past. Loyalty to the nation-state was elevated above all other allegiances.

Hitler did not create virulent, blind nationalism. He tapped into it.

Please don't tell me you are resurrecting that old, outdated argument of the rise of Nazism being the fault of reparations and the war guilt clause of the Versailles Treaty? By the time Hitler came to power the war had been over for 15 years and reparations had already been cancelled. Most of the reparations paid in the 1920s were actually the proceeds of American commercial loans.
The argument is still valid.


The 19th century Volkish movement on the other hand was anti-Semetic, anti-democratic, nationalist, and a proponent of racial purity long before National Socialism appeared on the scene. They organized patriotic societies, denounced national minorities, particularly Jews, and created a cult of ancestors and a mystique of blood, soil, and a sacred national past.
But it didn't become law untill Hitler had the Versaille treaty to proof his right.


Loyalty to the nation-state was elevated above all other allegiances.
Please. That was no else then in other states.

Hitler did not create virulent, blind nationalism. He tapped into it.
He spread it to the masses. Thanks to the treaty and the absence of a monarch.

He spread it to the masses. Thanks to the treaty and the absence of a monarch.

Yes, sir. Wilhelm II would have made all the difference in the 1930s, geopolitical genius that he was.

Yes, sir. Wilhelm II would have made all the difference in the 1930s, geopolitical genius that he was.
What he means on is that Hitler played on the fact that this Treaty bled Germany dry and fomented the removal of the Monarchy (seen as an attack on a very German symbol). As you said, Hitler was tapping into what was already there. To an extent, however, that he turned it into a murderous weapon. Nationalism, like religion, or politics, or whatever, can be both good and ill. It was a tool, and Hitler knew how to use it to get what he desired. The Treaty provided the perfect source of hatred for him to focus popular attention on, and gave him a leeway to begin promoting his own views. So Hitler was quite central. He twisted German tradition.

Yes, sir. Wilhelm II would have made all the difference in the 1930s, geopolitical genius that he was.
Bull. But the emperor was a symbol. Wether it would have been Wilhelm or another Hohemzollern. There was resistance against Hitler in the '30's. But due to the absence of such a symbol they could not move without risking all out civil war. The Italians got rid of Mussolini without much bloodshed while different factions flocked to the kings banners.

What he means on is that Hitler played on the fact that this Treaty bled Germany dry and fomented the removal of the Monarchy (seen as an attack on a very German symbol). As you said, Hitler was tapping into what was already there. To an extent, however, that he turned it into a murderous weapon. Nationalism, like religion, or politics, or whatever, can be both good and ill. It was a tool, and Hitler knew how to use it to get what he desired. The Treaty provided the perfect source of hatred for him to focus popular attention on, and gave him a leeway to begin promoting his own views. So Hitler was quite central. He twisted German tradition.
Exactly.

There was resistance against Hitler in the '30's.

The only significant resistance against Hitler before the war were the communists.

The only resistance movement of the people against the Nazis during the war were the brave, but pitifully insignificant White Rose students.

Your arguments are revisionist history.

I wouldn't worry about the flag waving my European friend! This happens every 2 years in England too. Normally, you won't see a Cross of St.George for love nor money, but when the European Championships or the World Cup comes around, heck, they're all over the place.

And, a rise in flag waving isn't bad. English patriotism is finally coming back, when before, you wouldn't hear the word England used! For Germany, it's what the country needs. The final piece of reconstruction is to have German people not only in Bavaria but up in Berlin (Brandenburg state, right?) waving the flag, and showing the world Germany is Germany, and that Germany is not the 1930's/40's, Germany still isn't in the Cold War. You guys need to say 'We are Germany, we have moved on, we are a strong, proud nation' etc. Just let history show 2006 as the year Germany certainly re-found itself. Heck, think of it as 1871's unification all over again.

Wasn't there a lot of flag waving during the Berlin Wall stuff?

The only significant resistance against Hitler before the war were the communists.

The only resistance movement of the people against the Nazis during the war were the brave, but pitifully insignificant White Rose students.
All the white rose did was pass out flyers. Hardly resistance.

Your arguments are revisionist history.
Eh no. It's not. And even if it was it's still the truth. The resistance I meant was found among the military. A prominent member was admiral Wilhelm Canaris.

The only significant resistance against Hitler before the war were the communists.

The only resistance movement of the people against the Nazis during the war were the brave, but pitifully insignificant White Rose students.

Your arguments are revisionist history.
The reason that the Right did not outright oppose Hitler was twofold:

a) they thought they could use Hitler and bring about the changes they used with him as their puppet. This is where those such as von Schleicher and von Papen erred significantly. They were outsmarted.

b) those who sought to restore Monarchy did not command Hitler's parliamentary power. Traditional German conservatives were either forced to ally themselves with Hitler, or return to being fringe parties.

Thus, the reason that opposition was so limited was because Hitler so cleverly enmeshed himself into German politics. He seemed to offer what no other party could, and the Germans (although only 37% at best) unfortunately bought into it. The parliamentary system used by Weimar Germany had led to successive weak, unstable regimes which in the end only further disheartened the German people. Hitler seemed to be the only solution. This is not revisionist history.

Wasn't there a lot of flag waving during the Berlin Wall stuff?

From the news reports I've seen, true, there was. I say seen as in lately due to being on 4 or 5 when the wall fell, and obviously too young to A) know what was going on B) remember. I guess I'm just trying to put the point across that this surge in flag waving isn't necessarily a step toward extremism.

Okay, so I'm supposed to be studying, meaning I don't get out much these days. So today was the first time I really went outside since the World Cup started.

There are flags everywhere. German flags.Late to this argument and I've sen someone else comment upon the English flags (Flag of St George [sic]), however, thought I'd comment too.

It's only been in the last couple of decades that the British and English public have 'retaken' the Union Flag and St George Cross for 'decent patriotism' from the likes of the BNP and other right-wing groups. We were just not used to seeing flags used the way they are, and I suspect people of my age and thereabouts either feel uneasy about the flags, or go "hooray, we can fly them again". (Oh, and then there'll be the jingoistic-and-proud ones.)


Of course, we have to recognise what the flag means. A bit like we have to recognise that the German national flag is not the swastika, and that the Iron Cross is not a Nazi symbol. Some things that people over here (UK) tend to forget, so ubiquetous the imageries are in "Boys' Own" adventures and films and computer games, etc, etc, etc...


Though I've been in Berlin (surrounding the ten-years of reunification celebrations) I don't remember too much in the way of flags. But then I don't remember much about the flags I saw in the US (a few months after 9/11, which should have meant a higher-than-normal amount of flags). Perhaps in both cases because "Sa forrin' country, innit? They do fings diff'rently, k?" mindset. (No, I don't talk like a teenage "wannabee-gansta", even inside my head, but couldn't resist ;))


I think both UK (at least English, possibly other regions) and German peoples are both 'bouncing back' from a time of uber-nationalism (no pun intentended). It wasn't the war, for us (directly, though the bounce-down from the post-war celebrations probably assisted) but the semi-volountary disintigration of the remains of the Empire, I suspect. But I leave the cogent analysis to those who have extensively studied the respective histories... ;)

Yeah I wouldnt be to afraid, from what I've heard your country is very hard on Neo-Nazis as it should be, and evyer other world government should be, However I do know how you feel, people in america are different and flag waving is very common but sometimes I can go way way to far, like at the begging of the Iraq war, during a time of a questionable war, with a questionable government, (that is begging to impead on our rights), with blind faith by certain individuals and xtreme nationalism going around it can get awfully nestalgic to certain times.... I would be more afraid of the US becoming a police state or England acutally, before Germany again though.

I think both UK (at least English, possibly other regions) and German peoples are both 'bouncing back' from a time of uber-nationalism

I wouldn't say we (England) (or the UK) ever really had a strong uber-nationalist era. Sure there was the NF and groups like that in the 70's, 80's, and now the BNP. I think nowadays, the English people are refinding their English-before-British thinking from the way that Scotland and Wales have found their respective before-British thinking lately. With the rise of nationalism in those countries, the Scots independence campaign, the English have realised 'Hang on, we're actually a country too?' and decided it's high-time we got on our patriotic horse.

Look at the '66 final (sorry Germany), the flags being waved were Union Flags, and now, 60 years later, we're waving St.George's Crosses. It's just how time progresses with circumstances.

What he means on is that Hitler played on the fact that this Treaty bled Germany dry and fomented the removal of the Monarchy (seen as an attack on a very German symbol). As you said, Hitler was tapping into what was already there. To an extent, however, that he turned it into a murderous weapon. Nationalism, like religion, or politics, or whatever, can be both good and ill. It was a tool, and Hitler knew how to use it to get what he desired. The Treaty provided the perfect source of hatred for him to focus popular attention on, and gave him a leeway to begin promoting his own views. So Hitler was quite central. He twisted German tradition.

Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated the throne in November, 1918, because of a revolution in Germany and mutiny among the armed forces. The Versailles treaty was signed in early 1919. Wilhelm's abdication was not the result of the treaty. Nor did reparations bleed Germany dry. It is a common myth that reparations resulted in either the hyperinflation of the '20s or the rise of Hitler in the '30s. Germany actually paid very little of the reparations. The period of inflation had to do more with government instability than war debt. By 1923 Germany had a strong, stable economy, one of the largest in the world.

Hitler did not twist German tradition, he was the logical extension and conclusion of the hyper nationalist Volkish movment of the late 1800s. It is the reason why Germans (and everyone else) should not be so eager to pick up their flags and sing about the glory of country.

Patriotism is to be guarded against, not embraced.

Anyway, I'm gonna put that bunny on my upper arm before tomorrow's game.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Schland-Bunny.jpg

(There's another black one and a special soccer-bunny but I'll safe those for later...)

And before anyone goes "OMG now it's nationalism times machismo", it's not. It simply is http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/fussball.jpg

Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated the throne in November, 1918, because of a revolution in Germany and mutiny among the armed forces. The Versailles treaty was signed in early 1919. Wilhelm's abdication was not the result of the treaty. Nor did reparations bleed Germany dry. It is a common myth that reparations resulted in either the hyperinflation of the '20s or the rise of Hitler in the '30s. Germany actually paid very little of the reparations. The period of inflation had to do more with government instability than war debt. By 1923 Germany had a strong, stable economy, one of the largest in the world.
I am aware of all of this. Hitler, however, was a master manipulator and was more than willing to use the Treaty as his punching bag. He interpreted the removal of the Monarchy and the Treaty as symbols of the Allies' hatred for Germany and their desire to emasculate it. Right, or wrong, this is what he presented to the German people. The Treaty had its harsh elements; it was in execution that these never came through. Britain and the US both first became softer, then indifferent, and France was too weak to enforce its will.

Hitler did not twist German tradition, he was the logical extension and conclusion of the hyper nationalist Volkish movment of the late 1800s. It is the reason why Germans (and everyone else) should not be so eager to pick up their flags and sing about the glory of country.

Patriotism is to be guarded against, not embraced.
That is clearly a matter of interpetation and opinion. In my view, he used what was already there for his own personal gain. To say he was simply a continuation of German tradition is simplistic. It neglects his role. He took these beliefs to an extreme.

He interpreted the removal of the Monarchy and the Treaty as symbols of the Allies' hatred for Germany and their desire to emasculate it.

I reckon Hitler would have blamed the Socialists for the removal of the Monarchy too, seeing as the Socialist Party (I can't remember the right 3-letter code) declared the abdication before Wilhelm II even HAD abdicated. It was more a forced-abdication in my book.

Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated the throne in November, 1918, because of a revolution in Germany and mutiny among the armed forces. The Versailles treaty was signed in early 1919. Wilhelm's abdication was not the result of the treaty.
He abdicated because the US wouldn't have agreed to a peace otherwise.

I reckon Hitler would have blamed the Socialists for the removal of the Monarchy too, seeing as the Socialist Party (I can't remember the right 3-letter code) declared the abdication before Wilhelm II even HAD abdicated. It was more a forced-abdication in my book.
He could've, but he focused most of his venom on the Allies. He didn't care much for the Monarchy. He used appeals to it to rouse German pride.

He could've, but he focused most of his venom on the Allies. He didn't care much for the Monarchy. He used appeals to it to rouse German pride.
Yeah. He placed Wilhelm under SS 'protection' in his home in Holland.

I reckon Hitler would have blamed the Socialists for the removal of the Monarchy too, seeing as the Socialist Party (I can't remember the right 3-letter code)
SPD.
It was more a forced-abdication in my book.
It was.

He abdicated because the US wouldn't have agreed to a peace otherwise.

This is what I mean by revisionist history.

This is just plain not true.

Far be it from me to tell someone about their own national history (I'm assuming you are German), but a German revolution, that included the Spartacists, as well as a mutiny by the Imperial Navy, was the reason Wilhelm abdicated.

The Americans had no say in it. The allies did not dictate terms. Germany called for an armistice to negotiate an end to the war after Wilhelm abdicated, while at the same time fighting a series of revolts and uprisings throughout the country.

Yeah, you'd think if anyone, the French would have refused to talk to the Kaiser, considering it was they (going from what I was told here) who included the War Guilt Clause.

This is what I mean by revisionist history.
You keep on hurling that about as if it were a negative qualifier. Why?

As for the rest, you are partially correct. One of the reasons Wilhelm II abdicated was, indeed, however, the fact that the Allies would not be willing to deal with the leader of a nation who was at war with them. They believed that Wilhelm II remaining in power would endanger further negotiations.

I reckon Hitler would have blamed the Socialists for the removal of the Monarchy too, seeing as the Socialist Party (I can't remember the right 3-letter code) declared the abdication before Wilhelm II even HAD abdicated. It was more a forced-abdication in my book.

Aren't all abdications, one way or another, forced?

Wilhelm's abdication was announced by his chancellor, who also resigned the next day, turning the government over to the socialists. It was the military, including Hindenburg, who told Willie it was time to go.

You keep on hurling that about as if it were a negative qualifier. Why?

As for the rest, you are partially correct. One of the reasons Wilhelm II abdicated was, indeed, however, the fact that the Allies would not be willing to deal with the leader of a nation who was at war with them. They believed that Wilhelm II remaining in power would endanger further negotiations.

I use the term revisionist to mean someone who is revising history to suit their own purposes.

I am also interested in reading more about your theory that the allies played a role in either Wilhelm's abdication or in selecting Germany's post-war government. I certainly have much to learn about European history, but I must confess I have never come across evidence for either of those two ideas.

This is what I mean by revisionist history.

This is just plain not true.

Far be it from me to tell someone about their own national history (I'm assuming you are German), but a German revolution, that included the Spartacists, as well as a mutiny by the Imperial Navy, was the reason Wilhelm abdicated.

The Americans had no say in it. The allies did not dictate terms. Germany called for an armistice to negotiate an end to the war after Wilhelm abdicated, while at the same time fighting a series of revolts and uprisings throughout the country.
My god. Where did you learn history? You should get back your tuition.:rolleyes:

My god. Where did you learn history? You should get back your tuition.:rolleyes:

Perhaps the students I have been teaching history to for the past 20 years could get some kind of refund as well.

Perhaps the students I have been teaching history to for the past 20 years could get some kind of refund as well.
If you are a teacher and tought them this they realy should demand a refund.

I use the term revisionist to mean someone who is revising history to suit their own purposes.
I am educated in the British system (A levels). Hence, my experience with History is largely with British materials and my own personal reading. The Historians and texts we studied were extremely neutral and balanced in their outlook, and were "revisionist" in nature; that is to say, it did not accept certain things as given, but sought to achieve as accurate as possible an understanding of History. The term shouldn't be seen as negative. My History teacher was extremely well-read in general, and German history more specifically. She did not and would not label such theories as we advanced as "revisionist" in the American sense.

I am also interested in reading more about your theory that the allies played a role in either Wilhelm's abdication or in selecting Germany's post-war government. I certainly have much to learn about European history, but I must confess I have never come across evidence for either of those two ideas.
The Allies most certainly had a role. It is a very traditionalist view to say that Germany was all itself to blame. Now, the selection of a proportional, parliamentary democracy may have been Germany's choice, but in the case of the Kaiser's removal, the Allies were most certainly factored in.

I understand that Germany has a right to fear getting to much national pride going, but this seems like a healthy amount. Flag waving? I wouldn't sweat it dude.

Once they start the putdowns to their "inferior neighbors" you should take notice.

Paul von Hindenburg on Kaiser Wilhelm II's Abdication, 20 March 1919

Public opinion has been recently discussing the question why the Kaiser went to Holland. To obviate erroneous judgments, I should like to make the following brief observations.

When the Imperial Chancellor, Prince Max of Baden, announced the Kaiser's abdication on November 9th, without the Kaiser's previous declaration of assent, the German Army was not beaten, but its strength had dwindled and the enemy had fresh masses in readiness for a new attack.

The conclusion of the armistice was directly impending. At this moment of the highest military tension revolution broke out in Germany, the insurgents seized the Rhine bridges, important arsenals, and traffic centres in the rear of the army, thereby endangering the supply of ammunition and provisions, while the supplies in the hands of the troops were only enough to last for a few days.

The troops on the lines of communication and the reserves disbanded themselves, and unfavourable reports arrived concerning the reliability of the field army proper.

In view of this state of affairs the peaceful return home of the Kaiser was no longer to be thought of and could only have been enforced at the head of loyal troops. In that case the complete collapse of Germany was inevitable, and civil war would have been added to the fighting with the enemy without, who would doubtless have pressed on with all his energy.

The Kaiser could, moreover, have betaken himself to the fighting troops, in order to seek death at their head in a last attack; but the armistice, so keenly desired by the people, would thereby have been postponed, and the lives of many soldiers uselessly sacrificed.

Finally, the Kaiser might leave the country. He chose this course in agreement with his advisers, after an extremely severe mental struggle, and solely in the hope that he could thereby best serve the Fatherland, save Germany further losses, distress, and misery, and restore to her peace and order.

It was not the Kaiser's fault that he was of this opinion.

Source: Source Records of the Great War, Vol. VI, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923

Finally, the Kaiser might leave the country. He chose this course in agreement with his advisers, after an extremely severe mental struggle, and solely in the hope that he could thereby best serve the Fatherland, save Germany further losses, distress, and misery, and restore to her peace and order.

This is an old source, but nonetheless, it reaffirms that the abdication was in part the result of Germany's hopes to achieve a good peace deal with the Allies. Without the abdication, the prospect of such a negotiation was non-existent. Hence, the abdication seemed necessary.

To the OP: Apparently, you've never been to America.;)

This is an old source, but nonetheless, it reaffirms that the abdication was in part the result of Germany's hopes to achieve a good peace deal with the Allies. Without the abdication, the prospect of such a negotiation was non-existent. Hence, the abdication seemed necessary.

This is a primary source, which is why I selected it. You may recall you said,

One of the reasons Wilhelm II abdicated was, indeed, however, the fact that the Allies would not be willing to deal with the leader of a nation who was at war with them.

As you can see Hindenberg does not list allied refusal to deal with the Kaiser as a reason for his abdication. The reason for the abdication says nothing about negotiations with the allies, but rather states the possibility of civil war and the inability of the army to protect the Kaiser.

This may seem nit picky, but it goes to the heart of this discussion, which is about revising history to paint a picture of a beaten and downtrodden Germany reluctantly turning to Hitler as a last resort. According to this argument nationalism wasn't the problem, Hitler was. Therefore, there is no need to worry about a return of nationalism today.

Well, if you can't be bothered to understand what actually happened then, how can you understand what is happening today?

I don't know what the state of nationalism is in Germany today. I know what I see in the United States and it scares me. It would take so little for Americans to willingly embrace fascism in the name of national defense and patriotism.

Because we too are more than willing to revise the past to suit our needs in the present.

Gotta go. I've enjoyed the talk.

This is a primary source, which is why I selected it. You may recall you said,

One of the reasons Wilhelm II abdicated was, indeed, however, the fact that the Allies would not be willing to deal with the leader of a nation who was at war with them.

As you can see Hindenberg does not list allied refusal to deal with the Kaiser as a reason for his abdication. The reason for the abdication says nothing about negotiations with the allies, but rather states the possibility of civil war and the inability of the army to protect the Kaiser.
Well of course he didn't. He used vague speech such as "restore her to peace and order". That could have been for any number of reasons. You must look beyond sources. Politicians do not always state, in explicit terms, the reasons for their decisions. I doubt the German people would want to hear they are surrendering their Monarch because of the Allies. His speech is, accordingly, diplomatic and non-specific.

This may seem nit picky, but it goes to the heart of this discussion, which is about revising history to paint a picture of a beaten and downtrodden Germany reluctantly turning to Hitler as a last resort. According to this argument nationalism wasn't the problem, Hitler was. Therefore, there is no need to worry about a return of nationalism today.
Nationalism is well and alive in many nations in any case. And that is not the argument; the argument is that nationalism is not inherently evil. In excess proportions, of course it is dangerous, like anything. It can lead to blind fanaticism. That does not mean it is all evil.

Well, if you can't be bothered to understand what actually happened then, how can you understand what is happening today?

I don't know what the state of nationalism is in Germany today. I know what I see in the United States and it scares me. It would take so little for Americans to willingly embrace fascism in the name of national defense and patriotism.
Germany today is in a state of self-loathing and guilt. Many young Germans are frustrated by this mentality, and are now rebelling against it. People do not take to negative mentalities; they eventually seek to rid of them. Much like the far worse Jante Law in Scandinavia. Such depressing attitudes stiffle human happiness. I too think that some Americans bask in ignorance as they throw themselves into the idolatry of their nation. Does this mean nationalism is wrong? No. It means they are fanaticising their beliefs. People should not be taught to hate their nation, as such is counter-productive. Instead, they should simply be showed that moderation is the way to go.

Because we too are more than willing to revise the past to suit our needs in the present.
Indeed. However, many Historians revise History so as to gain a more accurate understanding of it. Sticking to arcane historical beliefs can endanger the whole process.

Well of course he didn't. He used vague speech such as "restore her to peace and order". That could have been for any number of reasons. You must look beyond sources. Politicians do not always state, in explicit terms, the reasons for their decisions. I doubt the German people would want to hear they are surrendering their Monarch because of the Allies. His speech is, accordingly, diplomatic and non-specific.
If I may ask then, since the historian posted a primary source for his argument, what do you use for your argument that it was negotiations with the Allies that caused him to leave?

If I may ask then, since the historian posted a primary source for his argument, what do you use for your argument that it was negotiations with the Allies that caused him to leave?
Essentially what I learnt on the matter at A-Level; we had to wade through many Historians and their theses. I don't have any names of Historians who agree with this off-hand (though Bullock comes to mind), so right now I can't offer a counter-source. However, one thing I did learn was that primary sources are not meant to be taken as Dogma. Especially not ones of such a nature, seeing as politicians often use rhetoric to hide their intentions.

Edit:
http://search.lycos.co.uk/searchFrame/searchframe.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fopinion%2Feditorials%2F2003-01-29-stone_x.htm&query=Kaiser%2BWilhelm%2BII%2Babdication%2Breasons&SITE=uk&cat=loc&qstr=pag%3D3%26query%3DKaiser%2BWilhelm%2BII%2Babdication%2Breasons%26cat%3Dloc%26lyca%3DAJ%26enc%3D utf-8%26maxhits%3D10%26nwh%3D221%26maxhits%3D10%26nightsurf%3Dno

In the final stages of World War I, Wilson declared: "We intend no wrong against the German (people) ... we are, in fact, fighting for their emancipation from fear, along with our own." Then, through private notes, Wilson informed the German general staff that the kaiser's peaceful abdication would lead to negotiations beneficial to the remaining military leaders. Disillusioned by the kaiser's crumbling legitimacy and the imminent Allied victory, the German general staff abandoned him. Wilhelm II was exiled to the Netherlands.

Like I said, there are more than one primary sources out there to be weighed in. The Allies, and the US in particular, had influenced the abdication significantly.

To the OP: I support you on this. I agree with your uncomfortableness of the rapant flag-waving. Though for me its uncomfortableness with American flag waving. I despise blind patriotism, and here is why.

America was founded on the ideals of freedom, and that includes political freedoms to criticize the government, to say that you disagree with its policies and to try and change them. Appeals to blind patriotism are simple attempts to stifle that criticism, methods to manipulate masses of peoples to blindly follow where some charismatic leader leads.

For a time, the american people (a vast majority) were willing to follow anywhere our government lead us, and those who protested were called anti-american, unpatriotic. They still are today, even though a majority now believes the government is in the wrong and most americans no longer give the government carte-blanche to do as it pleases.

To see any country hitting the slippery slopes of nationalism is scary to me. Not just germany per se, anywhere. Please bear in mind I don't object to patriotism in and of itself, Patriotism can lead people to great things to improve their country an make life better for society as a whole. But when it is turned to evil purposes, patriotism is a terrible thing.

Oh please. Learn the Prussian history before you start giving lessons about it.:rolleyes:

Care to enlighten me on what I got wrong, then?

-OP-
Well, dammit, I'm missing it. :p

Don't worry. It's a little silly, but it goes away.

And besides, it's the Black Red and Gold. That is actually something worthwhile, unlike all the other flags in German history (except the Hanseatic ones of course ;) )

I seem to recall a song they sung in 1848...
In Kümmernis und Dunkelheit,
Da mußten wir sie bergen!
Nun haben wir sie doch befreit,
Befreit aus ihren Särgen!
Ha, wie das blitzt und rauscht und rollt!
Hurra, du Schwarz, du Rot, du Gold!
Pulver ist schwarz,
Blut ist rot,
Golden flackert die Flamme!

Das ist das alte Reichspanier,
Das sind die alten Farben!
Darunter haun und holen wir
Uns bald wohl junge Narben!
Denn erst der Anfang ist gemacht,
Noch steht bevor die letzte Schlacht!
Pulver ist schwarz,
Blut ist rot,
Golden flackert die Flamme!
Hehehe...don't you just love football!

Also, not sure whether anyone posted it yet: It's Okay to be German Again (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,420558,00.html)

I do? Prussia was no better or worse then the rest of Europe of that age. And trying to make it into an opressive, agressive, miltitary dictatorship simply is not true.

*lol So it wasn't military, it wasn't oppressive, it wasn't agressive? I never said it was a dictatorship, did I?
I'm from Southern Germany, and the point I was trying to make was that the Imperial flag is still widely hated here because of its close association with Prussia. It has a bad reputation, and it didn't get it from being an open-minded, friendly, peaceful neighbour.

Hey WYTYG! Guess what I saw! Hold onto your fucking seat: a guy waving a tricolour scarf! But it wasn't black-red-gold... it was... BLACK-WHITE-RED!

*:eek: OMG ENDOFWORLD :eek:*

Hey WYTYG! Guess what I saw! Hold onto your fucking seat: a guy waving a tricolour scarf! But it wasn't black-red-gold... it was... BLACK-WHITE-RED!

*:eek: OMG ENDOFWORLD :eek:*

So what? I've seen those eejits mrach every 1st of May through Leipzig... weel, the handful of them there were.

*lol So it wasn't military, it wasn't oppressive, it wasn't agressive?
It was militaristic, true. Probably not any more aggressive than any other major European power.
But oppressive? Compared to many other kingdoms (Russia, Austria, Bavaria etc) the kings of Prussia were men of the enlightenment through and through. For example they invited in the Jews who were oppressed everywhere else, and that paid off handsomely (until much later in the piece, I suppose...).

So what? I've seen those eejits mrach every 1st of May through Leipzig... weel, the handful of them there were.

Why would someone march on Mayday with an Empire flag?

It was militaristic, true. Probably not any more aggressive than any other major European power.

Voltaire called it an army with a country, rather than the other way 'round.

It was militaristic, true. Probably not any more aggressive than any other major European power.
But oppressive? Compared to many other kingdoms (Russia, Austria, Bavaria etc) the kings of Prussia were men of the enlightenment through and through. For example they invited in the Jews who were oppressed everywhere else, and that paid off handsomely (until much later in the piece, I suppose...).

Nice example with the Jews there. You might also have quoted the Hugenots who were expelled from France and grat numbers of whom found new homes in Prussia.
The problem is, all that happened in the 17th and 18th century, when Prussia was still a comparatively insignificant country on the European map. If you fast forward to the end of the 19th century, the political climate in Prussia had changed dramatically. There was, as far as I remember, no religious oppression, but Prussia made more than up for that by oppressing free thought, free expression, the freedom to congregate and by denying virtually all rights to the lower classes.

Why would someone march on Mayday with an Empire flag?

Because Mayday in Germany was instituted by the Nazi regime, I guess.
*shrugs
Or maybe just because those skinheads got more hair than brains...

Voltaire called it an army with a country, rather than the other way 'round.
Yep. Militaristic, as I said. But Voltaire seemingly didn't mind, as we was getting it on with the Prussian king at the time. :D

If you fast forward to the end of the 19th century, the political climate in Prussia had changed dramatically.
That's true as well. It was a very rigid society, the Junkers and big Industrialists ruled. And with this bureaucracy and sense of order, oppressive might be a good word to use, although it probably had a lot more to do with the society itself than with the government greatly oppressing people.
Except socialists of course. And Poles.

Hey, however the Germans want to celebrate and be nationalistic is fine with me. Waving flags? Enjoy. Painting faces? Knock yourself out. Hell, even if you kinda want to be shy about it thanks to the unfortunate history of excessive nationalism in Germany, I respect that too. Means you guys are the same as the rest of the world: Nobody likes Hitler! What a sucker. :p

Anyway, flag-waving is an almost integral part of the whole World Cup. And, thank goodness, I've seen lots and lots and lots of gold, red, and black around Europe these days on the telly. The stands on opening day were very well coloured by the German blokes in the stands, by the way. Good on ya! Hell, enjoy the party, love the games, and support your team. That's all there is to it! :D

Yep. Militaristic, as I said. But Voltaire seemingly didn't mind, as we was getting it on with the Prussian king at the time. :D



If I remember correctly, he was close friends with the heir to the throne, Prince Friedrich. As soon as Friedrich II became king, they had a severe argument and their friendship ended...

...he was close friends...
Suuuure they were. (http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/frederick_great,2.html) ;)

I'm happy the Germans are flying your flag, I was worried you'd all feel uncomfortable about it!

Suuuure they were. (http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/frederick_great,2.html) ;)

*rofl
Would also explain why Friedrich's marriage was not the best :D

It's akin to nihilism on some levels.

This is exactly what I mean. Germany has such a profound and magnificent history, yet people find themselves willing to hate their country for acts a bunch of idiots commited.

I don't hate my country.
I hate nazis.

It's possible.

You guys got issues...

So I just did a little shopping run myself (sporting the white Germany cap) and guess what - even the ladies at the bakery are wearing tricots and caps.

Ever since the weather changed from 15°C and rain to 30°C and sunshine with the WC under way, people are happier, friendlier, and way more open (especially the guys). Whatever gets the spirits up is good, and it is football.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/fussball.jpg

I'll just take Englaland's post as a stand-in for all the other posts who addressed the same sentiment regarding the World Cup:
I'm happy the Germans are flying your flag,
Well, that's good to hear. I guess it's enough that we're beating ourselves up about it (again, not everybody, obviously, and it's very much a question of degree, too - like, even though I *am* really freaked out by all this flag-waving, I'm still pretty much on the same page as Dorstfeld and German Nightmare (though the latter is starting to scare me a bit o.O :p), but I'm definitely not on the same page as Von Witzleben).

I was worried you'd all feel uncomfortable about it! Heh, as you may have gathered from this thread, many of us do.
To illustrate why seeing my neighborhood clad in red-black-gold from top to bottom was such a shock (and again, I'm not talking about a couple of fans waving a couple of flags and painting their faces, but of an all-out "flagification"), I'll steal a link from Neu Leonstein's article upthread.

- "Just Don't Fly the Flag" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,411948,00.html). Subheading: "Over six decades after the end of World War II, Germans still have a pathological fear of patriotism. Flying the flag is still a faux pas."
This article is from April 21st this year - this is what I mean when I say this topic has indeed been discussed here in the run-up to the World Cup.

- And now read the article Neu Leonstein linked to: "It's okay to be German again" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,420558,00.html), subheading: "For a country normally shy about displays of patriotism, Germany is awash in black, red and gold as the World Cup gets underway."
This one is from June 9th.

So considering that there are all of 7 weeks lying between these two assessments of the situation, you may understand my shock a bit better, as well as my hope that this newfound "patriotism" stays confined to the soccer pitch.

<snip>

OMG... those were the first pics I saw of the opening ceremony. That's SO embarassing *hides under her desk

OMG... those were the first pics I saw of the opening ceremony. That's SO embarassing *hides under her desk
LMAO! Cabra, I love you! :p

Yeah, I just about died here in front of the TV, I totally had to change channels until the bad Lederhosen part was over... Like, seriously? The article has it exactly right, IMO - this has set the public relations department back lightyears. :p

The whole time I was thinking "Oh my God, why would anyone give the opening ceremony to Munich? To Bavaria, for God's sake? Wasn't anyone awake at the German Fifa office when they did that? Anyone?" :p

LMAO! Cabra, I love you! :p

Yeah, I just about died here in front of the TV, I totally had to change channels until the bad Lederhosen part was over... Like, seriously? The article has it exactly right, IMO - this has set the public relations department back lightyears. :p

The whole time I was thinking "Oh my God, why would anyone give the opening ceremony to Munich? To Bavaria, for God's sake? Wasn't anyone awake at the German Fifa office when they did that? Anyone?" :p

You've no idea... *hangs head in shame
I'm originally from an area that's politically Bavarian...

You've no idea... *hangs head in shame
I'm originally from an area that's politically Bavarian...
Heh, I know, the poor Frrrrrrranken... :p

LMAO! Cabra, I love you! :p

Yeah, I just about died here in front of the TV, I totally had to change channels until the bad Lederhosen part was over... Like, seriously? The article has it exactly right, IMO - this has set the public relations department back lightyears. :p

The whole time I was thinking "Oh my God, why would anyone give the opening ceremony to Munich? To Bavaria, for God's sake? Wasn't anyone awake at the German Fifa office when they did that? Anyone?" :pLet me see, does anyone wonder why we had the opening match in Munich? Or why there's a lion as our official mascot, which is coincidently the Bavarian national animal?
I dunno, but I blame this guy (http://www.glasergrafik.de/grafiken/Archiv/(S)%20Franz%20Beckenbauer%20(Der%20Kaiser).jpg)* a wee bit for that mess...

*For those that don't recognize him for whatever reasons, this man is Franz Beckenbauer.

When I was stationed near Frankfurt am Main a couple of years ago, they used to fly their flags on days when they were playing football. That, and Reunification Day. I also remember seeing the Hessian flag on the Hessian national day, whatever it was. However, the flags were always gone by the next morning.

Exciting win over Poland.

No kidding, eh? That last goal in the last...two minutes, was it? I was excited FOR them, even though I'm not really rooting for Germany in the long run. :p

Aussies all the way!

Regardless though, awesome win for the Germans. Sweet finish to a paced game.

So first, good job Germany on winning their game.

I'm sort of interested reading this because here in the US we've had very little flag-waving or whatever - I suspect most of the country, if they know the World Cup is even going on, only know of it because of a 20-second blurb on the news channel. Now, admittedly our team's a bit embarrassing this year.

But I'm used to seeing quite a few flags around normally, and say during the Olympics flags are everywhere - called it pride, patriotism, or whatever, most of us actually like our country, so to me it's disappointing that we don't show the same support during a sporting event that has the rest of the world obsessed (I exaggerate) for two months. It's really bugging me, because I have friends/acquaintances in other countries, and most of the US doesn't care about anything that happens farther away than Mexico.

Which is sort of another dangerous nationalism, and concerns me at least as much as the mad flag-display.

Yep. Militaristic, as I said. But Voltaire seemingly didn't mind, as we was getting it on with the Prussian king at the time. :D


That's true as well. It was a very rigid society, the Junkers and big Industrialists ruled. And with this bureaucracy and sense of order, oppressive might be a good word to use, although it probably had a lot more to do with the society itself than with the government greatly oppressing people.
Except socialists of course. And Poles.
Which wasn't much different from Britain of that time. Allthough Prussian industrialists, for that time at least, were pretty progressive compared to other industrialists where it concerned their workers. The state had set a minumum age for child labour. And the situations never got as bad for the workers in Prussia as it was for the workers in Britain at the time.

Look what Spiegel wrote! It's like they read this thread:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,421241,00.html
Germany Flies the Flag
The World Cup has caused Germany to break out into a patriotic burst of black, red and gold not seen since reunification 16 years ago. Many Germans are confused. Some are even concerned. But they shouldn't be.

Sometimes it would be easier to just be Swedish.

Aside from getting uncontrollably drunk on Baltic Sea ferries, the Swedes haven't really annoyed anyone for over a century. The times when Scandinavian armies or hordes of pillaging Vikings descended upon Europe are far enough back that no one begrudges the friendly Swedes their orgy of yellow-and-blue-colored patriotism whenever their national soccer team steps onto the pitch.

This one is also on-topic: Trying to Be German as the World Watches (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,421061,00.html)

I guess it's enough that we're beating ourselves up about it (again, not everybody, obviously, and it's very much a question of degree, too - like, even though I *am* really freaked out by all this flag-waving, I'm still pretty much on the same page as Dorstfeld and German Nightmare (though the latter is starting to scare me a bit o.O :p), but I'm definitely not on the same page as Von Witzleben).
What? Why? Ow. Mmh. I enjoyed myself tonight. Brilliantly, I might say.


Heh, as you may have gathered from this thread, many of us do.
To illustrate why seeing my neighborhood clad in red-black-gold from top to bottom was such a shock (and again, I'm not talking about a couple of fans waving a couple of flags and painting their faces, but of an all-out "flagification"), I'll steal a link from Neu Leonstein's article upthread.


"Just Don't Fly the Flag" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,411948,00.html). Subheading: "Over six decades after the end of World War II, Germans still have a pathological fear of patriotism. Flying the flag is still a faux pas."
This article is from April 21st this year - this is what I mean when I say this topic has indeed been discussed here in the run-up to the World Cup.
That one's you :fluffle:.


- And now read the article Neu Leonstein linked to: "It's okay to be German again" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,420558,00.html), subheading: "For a country normally shy about displays of patriotism, Germany is awash in black, red and gold as the World Cup gets underway."
This one is from June 9th.

So considering that there are all of 7 weeks lying between these two assessments of the situation, you may understand my shock a bit better, as well as my hope that this newfound "patriotism" stays confined to the soccer pitch.
Wooohoo. Yup. Guess I do fit in here somewhere.

Let me see, does anyone wonder why we had the opening match in Munich? Or why there's a lion as our official mascot, which is coincidently the Bavarian national animal?
I dunno, but I blame this guy (http://www.glasergrafik.de/grafiken/Archiv/(S)%20Franz%20Beckenbauer%20(Der%20Kaiser).jpg)* a wee bit for that mess...

*For those that don't recognize him for whatever reasons, this man is Franz Beckenbauer.
"Jo mai. Dafür hob I d'Spiele jo schliaßlich a herbracht, gel?"

When I was stationed near Frankfurt am Main a couple of years ago, they used to fly their flags on days when they were playing football. That, and Reunification Day. I also remember seeing the Hessian flag on the Hessian national day, whatever it was. However, the flags were always gone by the next morning.
And that's exactly what's gonna happen right after the WC is over.

No, honestly. While I do understand some concern about that, have you been out in the streets tonight? It's been great! People were crazed and it's really been a lot of fun. Flag waving, cheering, crazy people in cars with chicks and flags and cheering and honking. It's really good to simply have a good time and celebrate. It's relieving and good, clean fun.

Unless (within 10 minutes, this happens):

a) Some asshole tries to steal one of our flags
b) Some other asshole complains about the noise around 00:20, threatens to call the cops, and then complains about nationalism - while we were simply celebrating a soccer victory in the WC.

a) I got to asshole 1 after a 20 meter sprint - he won't be pulling that shit again.
b) Yes, I laughed at him. Everyone was in a good mood, the cops were all sporting black, red & gold in their police cars, and a close soccer match does indeed have nothing to do with nationalism and celebrating, enjoying the moment simply is great fun without any hidden agenda.

I had a great time, soccer history repeats itself (Wasserschlacht von Frankfurt, anyone?), I'm really tired since it's 5:40 - but this is true:

"Der Ball ist rund und das Spiel dauert 90 Minuten." - Sepp Herberger
"The ball is round and the game lasts for 90 minutes."
&
"Fußball ist ein Spiel, bei dem 22 Spieler hinter einem Ball herjagen und am Ende gewinnt immer Deutschland." - Gary Lineker
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball, and in the end Germany always wins."

Phew. Close victory after 90 minutes of mayhem - but on the other hand, 12:0 shots to the goal should eventually make at least on successful shot...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/fussball.jpg