NationStates Jolt Archive

I took this with a grain of sand, too, but now it is in the mainstream press. Some people should just cop to it and admit they were wrong. They won't, though.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last week was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said.

The Israeli investigation concluded that the possibility any of the six artillery shells fired from the gunboat last Friday could have landed on the beach was "almost nil," the sources said.

The deaths of seven people -- all members of a Palestinian family having a beach picnic -- prompted the military wing of Hamas to resume rocket strikes against Israel after a hiatus of more than a year.

The Israel Defense Forces report, to be presented to the Israeli defense minister and Israeli chief of staff Tuesday, will cite several factors that led to the conclusion that the explosion was caused by a mine planted on the beach by Palestinian militants, the sources said.

An Israeli commando unit used the beach to enter Gaza for a mission in recent weeks, prompting the militants to place the mines, the sources said.

Intelligence information gathered by Israeli investigators showed that Hamas quickly removed the remaining mines from the beach after the blast, the sources said.

Investigators were able to locate where five of the six shells fired from the gunboat Friday landed and none of them were near the beach, the sources said. The sixth shell -- the first to be fired -- could not have killed the family because it was fired further north and too early, the sources said.

Adding to the conclusion that it was not an Israeli shell that killed the family was an examination of photographs of the crater on the beach. The sources said experts found it was the type of crater caused by a planted explosive, not by an artillery shell landing from above.

Finally, shrapnel removed from three of the injured by doctors at Israeli hospitals was not the from an artillery shell, the sources said.

At least 11 Palestinians, including two children, were killed Tuesday when an Israeli military aircraft fired missiles at a car in northern Gaza, Israeli and Palestinian sources said.

Israel Defense Forces said the car carried "Islamic Jihad terrorists" and was en route to a site where rockets have been fired into Israeli territory.

Five Qassam rockets landed on the Israeli side of the Gaza border Monday morning, causing no injuries or significant damage, the Israel Defense Forces said.

The Monday launches followed a series of at least 70 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza since Friday, wounding four Israeli civilians, the IDF said.

Makes me all fuzzy inside.

I personally wish the media sources that originally reported that it was the IDF that did it would admit they were wrong. This type of thing happens all the time in Israel; Palestinians screw up and turn it into a propaganda victory for Palestine.

So Hamas broke it's truce with Israel because some Palestinians killed some Palestinians. Yeah, there's hope for peace. :rolleyes:

So Hamas broke it's truce with Israel because some Palestinians killed some Palestinians. Yeah, there's hope for peace. :rolleyes:

Actually I didn't bring it up, but it appears Hamas had started planning to break its truce about a week beforehand, and was involved in the Sinai suicide attacks.

They just used this as a pretext to break the truce in the open and blame it on Israel. And it turns out their ruse fell through on this too.

Makes me all fuzzy inside.

I personally wish the media sources that originally reported that it was the IDF that did it would admit they were wrong. This type of thing happens all the time in Israel; Palestinians screw up and turn it into a propaganda victory for Palestine.
Well, it depends on what media source you're talking about. Most of the major sources here in the US didn't say the Isrealis did it, they said that the Palestinians said the Isrealis did it and that the Isrealis were shelling that day and that the IDF was investigating it. I know that most people took that to mean that the Isrealis did it, but that's not what the news outlet said. As long as they carry this story, too, as CNN just did, then they can't be said to not be fair.

They just used this as a pretext to break the truce in the open and blame it on Israel. And it turns out their ruse fell through on this too.

Probably. They are getting pissy with Abbas. He stole their thunder by announcing the whole referendum on a two state solution.

Hey! I posted about this too! lol I'm glad the truth is out for all the Israel haters out there. Here are the links to other news sources in case CNN isn't good enough for everyone...

CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/13/ap/world/mainD8I7C1K82.shtml

FOX: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199232,00.html

and will you look at that...no link to the BBC..imagine that

:eek: THE PALIS ARE OUT OF CONTROL! OMG!!!111 CALL KOFI! HE'LL KNOW WHAT TO DO!!!1!!!!

nothing.

This doesn't surpise me.

Hey! I posted about this too! lol I'm glad the truth is out for all the Israel haters out there. Here are the links to other news sources in case CNN isn't good enough for everyone...

CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/13/ap/world/mainD8I7C1K82.shtml

FOX: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199232,00.html

and will you look at that...no link to the BBC..imagine that

Did you look?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5074792.stm

Clearly not.

These things will continue until Omert grows the cajones to launch an Israeli version of Gulf War 1.

Did you look?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5074792.stm

Clearly not.



Ironic, I was just looking at an article on the death of Pals in Gaza on a diferent occasion from the special Palestinian/Israeli section of BBC and litereally just clicked on the link.

It's interesting though how that story is not on the main page Middle East page and is extremely difficult to find. If I hadn't clicked on the Israel/palestine in depth page and then subsequently clicked on a side link I never would have seen it.

Also, they literally just put that link on the main page.

Ironic, I was just looking at an article on the death of Pals in Gaza on a diferent occasion from the special Palestinian/Israeli section of BBC and litereally just clicked on the link.

It's interesting though how that story is not on the main page Middle East page and is extremely difficult to find. If I hadn't clicked on the Israel/palestine in depth page and then subsequently clicked on a side link I never would have seen it.

Also, they literally just put that link on the main page.
It really is amazing. The story is not on the front page of the Middle East section: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/default.stm

And, a story that does appear on the front page about the funerals: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5067414.stm

Is from Saturday and hasn't been updated. It still says only this:

Thousands of people have attended the funeral of seven members of a Palestinian family killed in an explosion on a Gaza beach on Friday.
There were emotional scenes as the bodies of a husband, wife, four daughters and a son were carried to the cemetery in the town of Beit Lahiya.

Palestinian militant group Hamas accuses Israel of killing the family.

Hamas said it fired rockets at Israel for the first time since its truce 16 months ago, in response to the deaths.

There were no Israeli reports of damage from the rockets, but one reportedly fell on Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza.

In a separate incident, the vehicle of senior Gaza security official Rashid Abu Shbak was caught in a gunbattle between police and Hamas gunmen at a security officer's funeral. Their bias is plain and clear. This is a huge development and deserves teh same play as teh story blaming Isreal for the deaths, especially in light of the fact that the funeral story still gets front page play.

I took this with a grain of sand, too, but now it is in the mainstream press. Some people should just cop to it and admit they were wrong. They won't, though.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

The SR doesn't believe that the Palestinians would be dumb enough to blow up their own people by accident. It doesn't have the ring of "evil" to it.

May I remind you that the Palestinians regularly blow themselves up, even when they're not trying (such as when they assemble homemade rocket warheads, or assemble suicide bomb belts).

And on BBC's homepage, not their Middle East homepage but the homepage to the whole site can be found this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5074798.stm

Still no mention of the fact that the Palestinians may very well have been lying when they blamed Isreal for those deaths Friday, though.

It happens and frankly it's a sordid example of what bastards humanity is. But what will annoy me is how the 101st Fighting Keyboarders are going to harp on this as a blank check to dismiss every future instance of Muslim casualties in the Mid-East as "Abstract Warfare." You know they will. Hell, they've all ready masturbated "Good Riddance" to the three Guantanamo suicides even though one was scheduled to have been transferred out of the facilty, i.e. they couldn't prove he was a terrorist.

It happens and frankly it's a sordid example of what bastards humanity is. But what will annoy me is how the 101st Fighting Keyboarders are going to harp on this as a blank check to dismiss every future instance of Muslim casualties in the Mid-East as "Abstract Warfare." You know they will. Hell, they've all ready masturbated "Good Riddance" to the three Guantanamo suicides even though one was scheduled to have been transferred out of the facilty, i.e. they couldn't prove he was a terrorist.

It may surprise you to know, Gauthier, that this sort of thing is common in the Palestinian conflict.

Every time something blows up, they blame it on Israel - even if it's the accidental detonation of a car bomb they were working on, or a suicide bomber playing with his vest, or a Qassam homemade rocket blowing up on the launchpad.

I think it is time for an apology, don't you?

No. An impartial observer (human rights watch) found that it was shelling, as did the only explosives experts on the ground, who say that the land mine excuse is israeli bullshit. Their injuries were to their upper bodies. Land mines injure lower bodies.

1 phrase.

Told ya so.

Ty Tropical Sands for being right :)

No. An impartial observer (human rights watch) found that it was shelling, as did the only explosives experts on the ground, who say that the land mine excuse is israeli bullshit. Their injuries were to their upper bodies. Land mines injure lower bodies.

Now read Reuters:

An investigator from international rights group Human Rights Watch told reporters in Gaza earlier that evidence pointed to Israel having fired the shell, but he had to leave the door open to the possibility that the explosion was caused by something else.


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-06-13T173624Z_01_L139968_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-SHELLING.xml&src=rss

What "explosives expert"? Provide sources.

Plus the fact that the IDF Navy does not use 155mm shells.

Now read Reuters:

An investigator from international rights group Human Rights Watch told reporters in Gaza earlier that evidence pointed to Israel having fired the shell, but he had to leave the door open to the possibility that the explosion was caused by something else.


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-06-13T173624Z_01_L139968_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-SHELLING.xml&src=rss

What "explosives expert"? Provide sources.

Plus the fact that the IDF Navy does not use 155mm shells.
'Incoming fire'

An expert working for the Human Rights Watch said the Palestinians' injuries were not consistent with a blast taking place beneath them.

"It has been suggested by some that the family was killed by a land mine, and this is patently not the case," Mark Garlasco said.

"All of the evidence is pointing to a 155mm shell as having killed and injured the Palestinians here on the beach," he said.

"My assessment [is] that it's likely that this was incoming artillery fire that landed on the beach and was fired by the Israelis from the north of Gaza."

Reacting to earlier reports that the Israeli inquiry would blame the blast on a mine planted by Hamas, a Hamas spokesman accused Israel of "shying away from its responsibilities over this atrocious crime".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5074792.stm

And the IOF sure as hell does fire 155mm shells.

Makes me all fuzzy inside.

I personally wish the media sources that originally reported that it was the IDF that did it would admit they were wrong. This type of thing happens all the time in Israel; Palestinians screw up and turn it into a propaganda victory for Palestine.Actually, the possibility that it wasn't the gunboat was mentioned over here, at least on the more reliable news sources.

Actually, the possibility that it wasn't the gunboat was mentioned over here, at least on the more reliable news sources.

Yet the eyewitnesses claim it was a gunboat or bomb throwing, the IDF has accounted for fired rounds, HRW says it was 155mm.

The stories don't mesh.

The Isrealis have claimed that it's no fault of theirs.

A more independant group, Human Rights Watch has done forensics and said that it was an Isreali 155mm artillery shell.

One of the artillery pieces fired at a time near the killing had one of its shells "unaccounted for".

In my opinion, it was an Isreali misfire.

The Isrealis have claimed that it's no fault of theirs.

A more independant group, Human Rights Watch has done forensics and said that it was an Isreali 155mm artillery shell.

One of the artillery pieces fired at a time near the killing had one of its shells "unaccounted for".

In my opinion, it was an Isreali misfire.

Well, they said it was a 155mm shell. The IDF stated that the misfire occured at least 8 min. before the blast.

Well, they said it was a 155mm shell. The IDF stated that the misfire occured at least 8 min. before the blast.
That doesn't make it any more unlikely...

The Isrealis have claimed that it's no fault of theirs.

A more independant group, Human Rights Watch has done forensics and said that it was an Isreali 155mm artillery shell.

One of the artillery pieces fired at a time near the killing had one of its shells "unaccounted for".

In my opinion, it was an Isreali misfire.
Where did you see that HRW did any forensics? What I read is that the guy from HRW saw the wounds and concluded that they were inconsistent with a blast from below. The Isrealis, on the other hand, did forensics and say the shrapnel isn't from a shell.

That doesn't make it any more unlikely...

I would say it makes it more unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Where did you see that HRW did any forensics? What I read is that the guy from HRW saw the wounds and concluded that they were inconsistent with a blast from below. The Isrealis, on the other hand, did forensics and say the shrapnel isn't from a shell.
On the BBC about 2 hours ago.

And since the Isrealis weren't at the beach and HRW were, I'm far more willing to believe HRW on this one.

Where did you see that HRW did any forensics? What I read is that the guy from HRW saw the wounds and concluded that they were inconsistent with a blast from below. The Isrealis, on the other hand, did forensics and say the shrapnel isn't from a shell.

Apparenlty it was based on an onsite inspection by HRW's military expert. While he's got good credentials, it doesn't make his opinion absolute. According to the Israeli doctors, the shrapnel wasn't from a 155 shell.

On the BBC about 2 hours ago.

And since the Isrealis weren't at the beach and HRW were, I'm far more willing to believe HRW on this one.

No, HRW were the 1st "independant" source there. The IDF did go to the beach and do forensics.

I would say it makes it more unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.
The people who are saying it are those who are quite probably responsible, and since they've not allowed a public enquiry, what's not to say that they aren't lying about this one?

On the BBC about 2 hours ago.

And since the Isrealis weren't at the beach and HRW were, I'm far more willing to believe HRW on this one.
But the Irealis actually have shrapnel from the bodies. Did the BBC actually say HRW did FORENSICS or that they looked at the bodies. Looking at them is not forensics. Looking at shrapnel from the bodies is. Actually measuring contusions and entrance wounds is doing forensics. Not saying, "man that guy had his head blown off, not his ass." That's just looking at a body and making a decision.

The people who are saying it are those who are quite probably responsible, and since they've not allowed a public enquiry, what's not to say that they aren't lying about this one?

"Quite probably" ? They haven't "allowed" a public enquiry? Then how did HRW get involved?

If you go by the odds of lying, then it was Hamas.

No, HRW were the 1st "independant" source there. The IDF did go to the beach and do forensics.
The Isreali foreign ministry stated that they didn't go on the beach, because it would have been "inappropriate" and "far too dangerous".

No, HRW were the 1st "independant" source there. The IDF did go to the beach and do forensics.
NPR reports as of yesterday the IDF did not go to the beach.

"Quite probably" ? They haven't "allowed" a public enquiry? Then how did HRW get involved?

If you go by the odds of lying, then it was Hamas.
No state-sponsored public enquiry.

And PsyDan - There was someone from HRW being interviewed. He said they took fragments of the shell and looked closed at the wounded.

The Isreali foreign ministry stated that they didn't go on the beach, because it would have been "inappropriate" and "far too dangerous".

Not denying it, but please source it.

The people who are saying it are those who are quite probably responsible, and since they've not allowed a public enquiry, what's not to say that they aren't lying about this one?
I think it's entirely likely that Hamas is responsible. How do you know that the IDF are "probably responsible?" All you have is a statement by Hamas, who I have to admit very rarely lie about anything - okay, I'm just joking. They lie all teh time and kill their own children by strapping them with bombs, but all kidding aside. All you have is a statement by Hamas and by a guy from HRW who is probably not a doctor or any other kind of scientist who looked at the bodies.

Not denying it, but please source it.
BBC News 24.

And PsyDan - how are HAMAS any less trustworthy than the Isreali Government?

And there were also no statements from HAMAS on the BBC, it was the Isreali Foreign Ministry and HRW on the programme.

And HRW said that they had scientists, military experts and doctors working on it, actually.

BBC News 24.

And PsyDan - how are HAMAS any less trustworthy than the Isreali Government?

And there were also no statements from HAMAS on the BBC, it was the Isreali Foreign Ministry and HRW on the programme.

And HRW said that they had scientists, military experts and doctors working on it, actually.

I haven't read anything about the IDF not going there. I've also only seen one person by the HRW who has done an investigation.

No. An impartial observer (human rights watch) found that it was shelling, as did the only explosives experts on the ground, who say that the land mine excuse is israeli bullshit. Their injuries were to their upper bodies. Land mines injure lower bodies.
There's also a little something called the Aerial Denial Munition. The most commonly talked about version of these is the famed German "Bouncing Betty" or S-Type mine from the second world war. When activated, the mine "bounces" up into the air, and inflicts upper body wounds. There are several types of Soviet Land Mines that also act in a similar fashion, the OZM series. The US developed the M16A2 Bounding Mine from the S-Type as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-mine -S-Type Mine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_mine - Land Mines in General

I haven't read anything about the IDF not going there.
I have no idea if it's up on the web, but that's exactly what was said on the programme itself.
I've also only seen one person by the HRW who has done an investigation.
One figurehead. There were supposedly several people "behind the scenes" so to speak.

BBC News 24.

And PsyDan - how are HAMAS any less trustworthy than the Isreali Government?Because they find lying so easy and no one checks. Like with the baby suicide bomber.

And there were also no statements from HAMAS on the BBC, it was the Isreali Foreign Ministry and HRW on the programme.The original statements, the ones reported Friday, were from Hamas.

And HRW said that they had scientists, military experts and doctors working on it, actually.
But as of now those scientists haven't said anything.

These are the most definitive statements so far in my opinion because I do not trust Hamas and because the statements are more poignant.
An Israeli commando unit used the beach to enter Gaza for a mission in recent weeks, prompting the militants to place the mines, the sources said.

Intelligence information gathered by Israeli investigators showed that Hamas quickly removed the remaining mines from the beach after the blast, the sources said.

Investigators were able to locate where five of the six shells fired from the gunboat Friday landed and none of them were near the beach, the sources said. The sixth shell -- the first to be fired -- could not have killed the family because it was fired further north and too early, the sources said.

Adding to the conclusion that it was not an Israeli shell that killed the family was an examination of photographs of the crater on the beach. The sources said experts found it was the type of crater caused by a planted explosive, not by an artillery shell landing from above.

Finally, shrapnel removed from three of the injured by doctors at Israeli hospitals was not the from an artillery shell, the sources said.


Beyond that, we'll have to wait until the full reports come out. I'm not saying that the IRF isn'r responsible, they have misfired in the past, but my bets on Hamas and my bet is, further, that Hamas knew it was their mistake and had no compunction about lying about it.

Because they find lying so easy and no one checks. Like with the baby suicide bomber.
The same could be said for the Isreali Government, sans the baby suicide bomber comment.
The original statements, the ones reported Friday, were from Hamas.
The ones presented today, on the news, were from HRW and the Isreali Foreign Ministry. HRW stated that it was an Isreali 155mm shell which did the damage, the IFM said that it was possibly a number of things, most probably a landmine, but, and I quote "we could speculate into tommorow about what it really was".

When one side claims to know exactly what happened, and the other's completely unsure, I'd prefer to trust the knowledgable side on this one.
But as of now those scientists haven't said anything.
Until today...
These are the most definitive statements so far in my opinion because I do not trust Hamas and because the statements are more poignant.
Emotive language and prejudice - 1, Actual evidence - 0.
An Israeli commando unit used the beach to enter Gaza for a mission in recent weeks, prompting the militants to place the mines, the sources said.

Intelligence information gathered by Israeli investigators showed that Hamas quickly removed the remaining mines from the beach after the blast, the sources said.

Investigators were able to locate where five of the six shells fired from the gunboat Friday landed and none of them were near the beach, the sources said. The sixth shell -- the first to be fired -- could not have killed the family because it was fired further north and too early, the sources said.

Adding to the conclusion that it was not an Israeli shell that killed the family was an examination of photographs of the crater on the beach. The sources said experts found it was the type of crater caused by a planted explosive, not by an artillery shell landing from above.

Finally, shrapnel removed from three of the injured by doctors at Israeli hospitals was not the from an artillery shell, the sources said.
And which sources are these?
Beyond that, we'll have to wait until the full reports come out.
The IFM said that they'll only share information with "select allies" about this one. A public enquiry sounds unlikely.
I'm not saying that the IRF isn'r responsible, they have misfired in the past, but my bets on Hamas and my bet is, further, that Hamas knew it was their mistake and had no compunction about lying about it.
We both have different prejudices on this one, then.

The same could be said for the Isreali Government, sans the baby suicide bomber comment.But seeing as how they have misfired in the past and stepped up to the plate immediately says something to me. I'm not saying they're always truthful, they're a government afterall, but I fail to see why this time should be any different.

The ones presented today, on the news, were from HRW and the Isreali Foreign Ministry. HRW stated that it was an Isreali 155mm shell which did the damage, the IFM said that it was possibly a number of things, most probably a landmine, but, and I quote "we could speculate into tommorow about what it really was".

When one side claims to know exactly what happened, and the other's completely unsure, I'd prefer to trust the knowledgable side on this one.You know, I still haven't seen anything from HRW accept that teh one guy says that. You say there are some actual scientists working on it, I haven't seen that but I'll trust you. When they come out and say what they think it was I'll give it more weight.

Until today...See above.

Emotive language and prejudice - 1, Actual evidence - 0.That's not true. I'm looking at evidence from both sides and using my experience and opinions to make a decision about who I trust more. I trust the Isrealis more.

And which sources are these?That was pulled straight from the first post in this thread. It was from CNN.

The IFM said that they'll only share information with "select allies" about this one. A public enquiry sounds unlikely.I suspect that's because they don't want to share any info with Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Let's see who those allies are before we rush to judgement. It may be the UN for all you know.

We both have different prejudices on this one, then.As long as you are willing to admit that we BOTH have PREJUDICES I'll concur on this point.

But seeing as how they have misfired in the past and stepped up to the plate immediately says something to me. I'm not saying they're always truthful, they're a government afterall, but I fail to see why this time should be any different.
I think they're acting differently this time because if they say that HAMAS did it, with the state that Palestine is in it might be the catalyst for a civil war, which would be really quite useful for the Isrealis.
You know, I still haven't seen anything from HRW accept that teh one guy says that. You say there are some actual scientists working on it, I haven't seen that but I'll trust you. When they come out and say what they think it was I'll give it more weight.

See above.
Well they have... they said that it was a misfired Isreali 155mm shell.
That's not true. I'm looking at evidence from both sides and using my experience and opinions to make a decision about who I trust more. I trust the Isrealis more.
Well I'm doing the same and I reckon the Isrealis did it.
That was pulled straight from the first post in this thread. It was from CNN.
Yeah. I know. What sources did the CNN have?

Because let's face it, the US' media is fairly biased in favour of Isreal.
I suspect that's because they don't want to share any info with Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
If they're innocent, why ever not?
Let's see who those allies are before we rush to judgement. It may be the UN for all you know.
I think it was more "the USA" than "the UN and the rest of the world too". But then I'm a bit of a cynic.
As long as you are willing to admit that we BOTH have PREJUDICES I'll concur on this point.
Yep. I'm completely willing to admit that I'm prejudiced against the state of Isreal.

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last week was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said.

I've underlined what the rather obvious flaw is in this. It may have been a Palestinian rocket, but in all honesty if a rocket blew up in Israel and Hamas said it was actually an IDF projectile, would anybody believe them?

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An explosion on a Gaza beach that killed seven people last week was caused by explosives planted there by Palestinian militants, not artillery fire from an Israeli navy gunboat, Israeli military sources said.

I've underlined what the rather obvious flaw is in this. It may have been a Palestinian rocket, but in all honesty if a rocket blew up in Israel and Hamas said it was actually an IDF projectile, would anybody believe them?

Well, being that Hamas was just caught doing the exact thing in Gaza, no.

We've already pretty much established that Hamas is full of shit as to the gunboat hypothesis w/ the two most likely being a Hamas explosive or a misfired Israeli shell. But even those contradict several reports.