NationStates Jolt Archive

I disagree with David Cameron on many counts, principally his being the all dancing show pony of conservative reform, however here I agree with him fully.

Essentially, David Cameron deplored British urban music DJ Tim Westwood, and Hip Hop in general, for its rampant glorification of violence, gun crime, homophobia and crime, implying that it "ruined lives", and constitutes a bad influence. Having watched Newsnight last night, a habit of mine, I found the counter-arguments proffered by Lethal Bizzle's manager to be facile and flawed.

She asserted that Lethal Bizzle and Westwood constituted role models for the urban community, not failing to recognise that if they are indeed role models, then their lyrics are even more deplorable. The spokeswomen also suggested that such lyrics are derived from the life of urban music artists, a notion that once more serves to puncture her argument. Surely, if such degenerecy is rife in "da Ghetto", then its glorification is an even greater issue?

The following is taken from Lethal Bizzle's oh so eloquent riposte to David Cameron in that famously objective paper the Guardian:


“David Cameron you’re a DONUT!!! Open your eyes to UK society, by making comments like this you're taking yourself further from the young British society. I'm a young black British music artist and I'm the voice for the streets, you should be working with us - instead of laying the blame on us.

A lot of what I do is on a positive tip for the community but that all gets ignored, I've signed 14 young rappers from East London to my own label, that’s taken them off the streets and given them something positive to look forward to. They're working on their own mixtapes and I’m providing them an opportunity to make a living out music. They’re not involved in gun/ knife violence and have a goal in their life to work towards. HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THIS TYPE OF MUSIC IS A NEGATIVE THING? These are 14 kids aged between 17-22 who are now off the streets and away from the bad side of society. Because of all this they have a better life to look forward to. I don’t have all the resources I'd like and can only do so much - but at least it’s a start.

You need to give back to the kids, cos they're the future of this country - they need to see that their voice counts and that they can get somewhere in life. There are too many differences in society with class - you live in a different world you don’t experience the things that kids go through today. To be honest most kids if they turn on the TV and see something about the government they'll switch off.

Westwood is a big role model to a lot of kids around the UK and by slamming their hero you’re not tackling any problems but trying to hide behind things. Music is not to blame; there are problems and violence in all parts of society. You should look deeper at what’s wrong in society and help to make changes.

I think one of the main problems that face young people is the motivation and belief that they can get somewhere. There needs to be more things happening, try and make school exciting, let them have fun; involve them with their interests. Not just one of yearly events but a regular thing to encourage the kids and motivate. And most young people have the same main interests; they wanna do music, sports, football and athletics.

WORK WITH US AND YOU WILL REACH THE KIDS. ARTISTS LIKE ME SHOULD BE USED AS THE STREET MPS TO EMPOWER THE KIDS TO GET MORE INVOLVED IN GOVERNMENT AND GIVE THEM A VOICE”

Firstly, as a 17 year old with an interest in contemporary music, my sentiments are by no means obsolete. However, how can the Guardian publish an article that begins by insulting its target? Inded, how can a paper that claims to have the highest reading age per article allow such tripe to be published?

The original issue is derived from the following:

Conservative Party leader David Cameron has accused UK radio station Radio 1 of encouraging knife and gun crime.

Leader Of The Opposition Cameron cited the popular BBC station's Saturday night schedules, which feature DJ Tim Westwood's hip-hop show.

Cameron made his comments on Tuesday evening (June 6) at a British Society Of Magazine Editors event.

Responding to a question about growing knife crime in the UK, Cameron was quoted as saying: "I would say to Radio 1, do you realise that some of the stuff you play on Saturday nights encourages people to carry guns and knives?"

Cameron added his remarks were an example of him having "the courage to speak up when you see something that is wrong" despite the fact that "you will get a lot of bricks thrown at you".

Radio 1 strongly denied Cameron's accusation. A spokesman for the station added: "Radio 1 strongly refutes any suggestion that the station condones or encourages knife or gun culture.

"The station takes its responsibilities very seriously and has strict producer guidelines that govern all of the output.

"Hip-hop is a huge international genre with a vibrant UK scene and that music reflects the sometimes harsher realities of people's lives and cultures."

Whilst Hip Hop is indeed a vibrant cultural scene, Radio 1's defence is a joke. Tim Westwood's boradcast begins with gunshot sounds, and he regularly interviews artists whose Lyrics do glorify gun crime.

Reactions please.

Perhaps cameron should stop blundering around climate change and his new image and actually come up with some policies. But of course, that's crazy talk.

As for rap, it's fine. And Cameron is a fool if he thinks it glorifies gun crime- artists like that guy from g-unit who got shot loads of times sing against that type of thing. But never mind, im sure Cameron's knowledge of rap is far more extensive than mine.:rolleyes:

I've always held a similar position on such "music." I'm hardly an elistist, and you can listen to whatever music you want, but rap...as far as I am personally concerned, rap is not music. It's bad, hate-filled poetry with a beat to it. I don't see how anyone can like it at all.

Still, as that is my personal opinion, it is not my place to force it on others. Therefore, if they wish to listen to rap, that's their business.

How about... it depends on the actual lyrics?

Rap is a medium, not a message (please let's leave McLuhan out of this, my point should be understood). The only common irritant is the constant ego-stroking. Something Cameron himself is ill-placed to criticise.

I think you'll find elements of it in every style of music, not just Hip Hop.

I think you'll find elements of it in every style of music, not just Hip Hop.

Classic?

Classic?
War marches, or whatever they are called.

Point. I recall... Elgar

*shudder*

Bad rap lyrics do tend to be much of a kind in that sense however. That's what elevates the others.

pan pipes

With gun and knife crime on the rise Cameron here is trying to gain popular support from some of the older Tory members/voters by blaming the recent crime rise on youth's who listen to Rap.

All this talk of changing the Conservative party has lost him support from some of the "Old Guard" (Thatcherist's).

This maybe a simple public relations stunt that will work in his favour for the most part, although loose him the support of those who listen to such music.

Liasia']War marches, or whatever they are called.
Heh, score!

I was right!

Apparently cameron's favourite band is the smiths. *snicker* Anyone else see the irony there?

Heh, score!

I was right!
Yeh, i wouldn't listen to me if i were you. I haven't slept for like a day and a half.

With gun and knife crime on the rise Cameron here is trying to gain popular support from some of the older Tory members/voters by blaming the recent crime rise on youth's who listen to Rap.

All this talk of changing the Conservative party has lost him support from some of the "Old Guard" (Thatcherist's).

This maybe a simple public relations stunt that will work in his favour for the most part, although loose him the support of those who listen to such music.

Not that the latter vote Tory much - or anything, for that matter. An astute political observation. Nothing like a good old appeal to bigotry to keep the lumpen middle classes on side!

So... I carry a knife daily.

Am I a gangsta in Cameron's world?

Liasia']War marches, or whatever they are called.

Are they counted as classical music? I thought they were a seperate division.

Hip Hop is the scourge of society! I shudder to think what the youth of today is going to grow up like - obviously brainwashed into tools of Satanic propaganda. But it doesn't begin there! Such violent and antisocial influence has pervaded music for generations!

Let me show you:

http://www.jim-morrison.com/bestofthedoors.jpg

Jim Morrison. Not only does he offend our sensibilities by removing his SHIRT - This vile, evil, disgusting man wrote a song that contained the lyric "Father, yes son, I want to kill you - Mother, I want to fuck you". That's right; this evil Oedipan parent-killing message has been out there since it was published in 1967. Not only that, but he encourages the youth of uh...yesterday, to participate in the taking of drugs and mass consumption of the devil-drink alcohol! In fact, he was so bad that he was arrested on obscenity charges! And once upon a time we let this man roam free? He may be dead, but his message lives on - I say that we take action and force radio stations to boycott this man! Enough of this drug addled 'hippie' nonsense!

http://www.nrk.no/img/482046.jpeg

Ozzy Osbourne, the self professed "Prince of Darkness". Evidence of satanism is rife in his lyrics - "My name is Lucifer, please take my hand", being but one of them. As if this alone wasn't offensive enough to right thinking folk the world over; the man served prison time for burglary, urinated on the Alamo, bit the head off a bat, and was arrested on numerous public intoxication charges. Clearly a threat to any moral sensibility, the worrying fact is that this man still lives today and has become the subject of a popular television series in which he swears a lot, swears a lot, and well....swears a lot.

http://w3.v-net.ne.jp/~chartetu/i/sid.jpg

Sid Vicious, of the terribly offensively monikered "Sex Pistols". They insulted our royal highness and labelled her a fascist, of all things!!!! They wrote a song called Anarchy in the UK! Is any further explanation necessary?!?!? The disgusting heroin addict may be dead, but I say we strive to bring the same end to the music of his band! Ban the Sex Pistols now!

Do you now see how ridiculous the backlash against hip hop is in context?

So... I carry a knife daily.

Am I a gangsta in Cameron's world?

Depends... are you a cook?

Are they counted as classical music? I thought they were a seperate division.
Bleh. Written in the same period, by the same people. So i assume so.

Liasia']Bleh. Written in the same period, by the same people. So i assume so.

They still write marches nowadays. And I would hardly call them classical.

Hip Hop is the scourge of society! I shudder to think what the youth of today is going to grow up like - obviously brainwashed into tools of Satanic propaganda. But it doesn't begin there! Such violent and antisocial influence has pervaded music for generations!

Let me show you:

http://www.jim-morrison.com/bestofthedoors.jpg

Jim Morrison. Not only does he offend our sensibilities by removing his SHIRT - This vile, evil, disgusting man wrote a song that contained the lyric "Father, yes son, I want to kill you - Mother, I want to fuck you". That's right; this evil Oedipan parent-killing message has been out there since it was published in 1967. Not only that, but he encourages the youth of uh...yesterday, to participate in the taking of drugs and mass consumption of the devil-drink alcohol! In fact, he was so bad that he was arrested on obscenity charges! And once upon a time we let this man roam free? He may be dead, but his message lives on - I say that we take action and force radio stations to boycott this man! Enough of this drug addled 'hippie' nonsense!

http://www.nrk.no/img/482046.jpeg

Ozzy Osbourne, the self professed "Prince of Darkness". Evidence of satanism is rife in his lyrics - "My name is Lucifer, please take my hand", being but one of them. As if this alone wasn't offensive enough to right thinking folk the world over; the man served prison time for burglary, urinated on the Alamo, bit the head off a bat, and was arrested on numerous public intoxication charges. Clearly a threat to any moral sensibility, the worrying fact is that this man still lives today and has become the subject of a popular television series in which he swears a lot, swears a lot, and well....swears a lot.

http://w3.v-net.ne.jp/~chartetu/i/sid.jpg

Sid Vicious, of the terribly offensively monikered "Sex Pistols". They insulted our royal highness and labelled her a fascist, of all things!!!! They wrote a song called Anarchy in the UK! Is any further explanation necessary?!?!? The disgusting heroin addict may be dead, but I say we strive to bring the same end to the music of his band! Ban the Sex Pistols now!

Do you now see how ridiculous the backlash against hip hop is in context?

Yes and no. Groups such as So Solid Crew glorify such violence regularly. Granted the actualy musical scene is not as singular as Cameron asserts, however the spate of gang killings, gun crime and knife attacks are testament to the influence of certain groups.

Depends... are you a cook?

Or a Butcher perhaps?

They still write marches nowadays. And I would hardly call them classical.
*shrugs* Don't know, i just always thought of certain songs and marches as classical. Like erm... *insert song here*

Yes and no. Groups such as So Solid Crew glorify such violence regularly. Granted the actualy musical scene is not as singular as Cameron asserts, however the spate of gang killings, gun crime and knife attacks are testament to the influence of certain groups.

Such as gangs.

Such as gangs.

Whose allure is developed by? Gangsta music perhaps?

Whose allure is developed by? Gangsta music perhaps?
Money, I should think.

Liasia']Money, I should think.

Not in the UK. Most British knife attacks, and a decent proportion of shootings, are committed by wannabee black gangsters.

Not in the UK. Most British knife attacks, and a decent proportion of shootings, are committed by wannabee black gangsters.
Based on WHAT? I live in the Uk, and the news here is most often about black people being attacked in racially motivated attacks, or sumsuch. It's a bit silly to blame all this violence (which was around before the 90s and rap, btw) on these 'wannabee black gangsters'.

Yes and no. Groups such as So Solid Crew glorify such violence regularly. Granted the actualy musical scene is not as singular as Cameron asserts, however the spate of gang killings, gun crime and knife attacks are testament to the influence of certain groups.
Even if youth violence is on the increase (I don't speak for where you live, but over here, I believe it's the opposite case), blaming it on hip hop is just ridiculous. Youth violence existed before hip hop. Music doesn't make people go and stab someone. If someone is that impressionable in the first place, I doubt they'd be much of a threat.

Not in the UK. Most British knife attacks, and a decent proportion of shootings, are committed by wannabee black gangsters.
That is rather an over-generalisation, isn't it?

I would have said most violence is caused by pissed-up tossers on Saturday/Friday night, but that's probably another obscene generalisation.

The last knifing I witnessed and tried to contain took place after a very white and very English yob struck and continuously threatened a Chinese student who eventually pulled out his pocket knife. The yob continued to hassle him and ended up with his arm cut. Even then he didn't want to stop, despite blood being everywhere. One of his pals tried to hit me with a bottle when I said we were waiting for the police. The student was arrested. In this case I blame...

Sven's team for playing that day?

Nah.

Alcohol = inflated egos.

Er. That's what I said about bad rap.

I think it is an exaggeration to cast this remark as a backlash against hip-hop. I think the point the chameleon was making is that someone in a postion of cultural influence such as a radio 1 DJ should not be doing anything that might be perceived to glorify violence or promote a culture of knife-carrying.

Don't forget the bicycle!

The chameleon rides a bicycle. So do I, but that's not good enough. Not while he has his papers chauffeured ahead.

You have a point with glorification. But although I am a media person myself, I don't think we're all-powerful. More streetworkers and more non-violent perspectives for kids from the estates would go a lot further in cutting down on any kind of social problem than the exact wording of radio drivel.

Yes and no. Groups such as So Solid Crew glorify such violence regularly. Granted the actualy musical scene is not as singular as Cameron asserts, however the spate of gang killings, gun crime and knife attacks are testament to the influence of certain groups.

I saw the same newsnight program. My favourite arguement.

Drug abuse is just as big of a problem as knife crime. If we should tackle songs that glorify violence we should also ban songs that glorify drug use.

I don't like their culture either, but I don't like extreme religous culture either. And I'm sure some people don't like druge culture or hippy movements. My solution leave people be and only attack people who actually commit crimes. Untill then please don't piss on peoples freedom of expression.

That is rather an over-generalisation, isn't it?

I would have said most violence is caused by pissed-up tossers on Saturday/Friday night, but that's probably another obscene generalisation.

That does depend. Violence in town centres, yes, it is alcohol fueled. However, why not analyse violence and juvenile delinquincy in the suburbs?

It is, for the most part, perpertrated by people either influenced by, or, who listen to, hip hop. That is not to say that Hip Hop is to blame, only that the image of the "black gangsta" in Britain is one that is perversely alluring.

The last knifing I witnessed and tried to contain took place after a very white and very English yob struck and continuously threatened a Chinese student who eventually pulled out his pocket knife. The yob continued to hassle him and ended up with his arm cut. Even then he didn't want to stop, despite blood being everywhere. One of his pals tried to hit me with a bottle when I said we were waiting for the police. The student was arrested. In this case I blame...

Sven's team for playing that day?

Nah.

Alcohol = inflated egos.

Er. That's what I said about bad rap.

Indeed. The argument is not universal, however do consider that the average English yob listens to....... yes, you got it, Hip Hop / Rap.

Essentially, David Cameron deplored British urban music DJ Tim Westwood...
Isn't that the white presenter of UK Pimp My Ride? The guy that acts like he's black...?

That does depend. Violence in town centres, yes, it is alcohol fueled. However, why not analyse violence and juvenile delinquincy in the suburbs?

It is, for the most part, perpertrated by people either influenced by, or, who listen to, hip hop. That is not to say that Hip Hop is to blame, only that the image of the "black gangsta" in Britain is one that is perversely alluring.
Source?

I saw the same newsnight program. My favourite arguement.

Drug abuse is just as big of a problem as knife crime. If we should tackle songs that glorify violence we should also ban songs that glorify drug use.

I don't like their culture either, but I don't like extreme religous culture either. And I'm sure some people don't like druge culture or hippy movements. My solution leave people be and only attack people who actually commit crimes. Untill then please don't piss on peoples freedom of expression.

The insinuation was not that the Tory party intended to, indeed Michale Astle refuted the notion of a censorship vehemently. However, how does deploring music that glorifies violence qualify as an imposition on freedom of expression, if anything it is freedom of expression.

Isn't that the white presenter of UK Pimp My Ride? The guy that acts like he's black...?

Yup. Biggest tit on the planet.