NationStates Jolt Archive

Simple question, are Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis legitimate resistance, terrorism, or both? I say given the illegal occupation such martyr attacks are justified in defence of the Palestinian people. I would also add that with the conditions the Israelis create for Palestinians, they actually create every martyr that attacks them and their people.

Obviously if conditions weren't so bad there, people would be less willing to blow themselves up. Basic economics, that.

But blowing up civilians is not legitimate resistance. If they targeted the Israeli government and military, then I could live with that. But blowing yourself up in nightclubs, and blindly firing rockets into settlements is pretty much defined as terrorism.

That said, it always takes two to tango. Personally I am a lot more angry though about the checkpoints and their occasional closing than I am about Israeli incursions - although I believe that too many in the IDF don't seem to respect the Palestinians properly.

*snip*
Agreed.

Intentionally targeting civilians is never legitimate resistance.

The Palestinian leadership has to be the most lame-brained group of bumblers on the planet. They fight the most technologically advanced military in the Middle East with their stones and suicide bombers, when all they have to do to achieve victory is surrender.

Yes, surrender.

Give up.

Join the Israeli democracy as loyal Palestinian-Israeli citizens and continue to do what they are already doing, which is produce large Palestinian families. Within a generation or two they will vastly outnumber the Israeli-Jewish citizens and voila! they can vote themselves a separate state or remain part of a multicultural Israel.

Either way they will be better off than they are blowing up their children in the name of some boneheaded jihad.

I have to concur with Neu.

Even as blatently pro-Israeli as I am, I could understand Palestinian attacks against military targets as being justified. And if they want to kill themselves in doing so, thats their job.

But Palestinians don't target legitimate military targets. They target innocent civilians. According to the Institute for Counter-Terrorism, over 75% of Israelis killed by Palestinians are civilian non-combatants. Contrast this to the only approx 16% of non-combatants out of all Palestinians killed by Israelis.

And I'm not sure what Palestinians are resisting these days anyway. Around 400 out of approx 3000 Palestinian deaths over the last 5 years are by Palestinians. Internal factions fight with one another about as much as they fight with Israelis. Are they having a resistance against themselves, too?

But seriously, Palestinian groups don't claim to be resiting the occupation. If you read the Hamas charter, it claims to be resisting all Jewish presence within all of "historical Palestine." It calls for the forceful explusion of all Jews out of the Middle East. They aren't resisting Israeli occupation over the 1967 borders, or their presence in the Occuped Territories, and they will admit that. They are resisting a Jewish presence in the Middle East, and the existence of the soverign State of Israel. In fact, as the Hamas charter calls for the killing of any Jew in sight ("slay them when you see them"), they are resisting the very right of Jews to live.

So, while I support valid Palestinian resistance, and a two-state solution, there currently is no legitimate resistance in the Occupied Territories. All we have is terror from terrorist groups.

The Palestinian leadership has to be the most lame-brained group of bumblers on the planet. They fight the most technologically advanced military in the Middle East with their stones and suicide bombers, when all they have to do to achieve victory is surrender.

Yes, surrender.

Give up.

Join the Israeli democracy as loyal Palestinian-Israeli citizens and continue to do what they are already doing, which is produce large Palestinian families. Within a generation or two they will vastly outnumber the Israeli-Jewish citizens and voila! they can vote themselves a separate state or remain part of a multicultural Israel.

Either way they will be better off than they are blowing up their children in the name of some boneheaded jihad.
Actually, I think alot of Palestinians would go for that, seeing as a one state would mean basically an Arab state with the jews being pushed out. However the Israelis know this aswell and I doubt it will happen. This leaves the Palestinians few options for independance, one of which happens to be suicide attacks.

Actually, I think alot of Palestinians would go for that, seeing as a one state would mean basically an Arab state with the jews being pushed out. However the Israelis know this aswell and I doubt it will happen. This leaves the Palestinians few options for independance, one of which happens to be suicide attacks.
If I were in Israel's position, I'd sacrifice some land to the Palestinians to avoid such an effect from arising.

Let's consider this: most of the time populations merge, move, or are given sanctuary in other nations.

AFAIK, Jordan is the only Arabian nation to take in a sizeable population of Palestinians.

So why has the Arab world not stepped up to the plate, the way Canada and the US did with the boat people, or France did for fleeing colonials?

I’m going to have to along with the consensus so far and say that as long as they attack civilian targets, it’s terrorism. Though, to me, it seems that the Israeli government isn’t interested in doing anything to stop these attacks beyond base retaliation that ultimately breed more such attacks.

Military targets, yes.
Civilian targets, no.

*snip*
Im sure for the most extreme Palestinians complete destruction of Israel would be the goal. I think most Palestinians who fight Israel just want them off their land and to have their own state. I too, would rather see Palestinians target the IDF if nothing else because its better for PR. They do seem to fighting among themselves often lately and they will work it out, or kill themselves, either way it will be fixed.

Actually, I think alot of Palestinians would go for that, seeing as a one state would mean basically an Arab state with the jews being pushed out. However the Israelis know this aswell and I doubt it will happen. This leaves the Palestinians few options for independance, one of which happens to be suicide attacks.

You're delusional if you think that Palestinians can get independence through suicide attacks. The Palestinains could be negotiating right now with Israel for a state, and probably get the same deal offered during Camp David (the one that major Arab leaders all over the Middle East and Africa said Arafat was a criminal for rejecting). However, since terror has increased, Olmert is probably going to push a plan through to unilaterally declare Israel's borders.

And Palestinians wont get any more sympathy when Israel has fixed borders and it is still a stateless, terrorist entity that refuses to achieve statehood and equal rights for its citizens.

Im sure for the most extreme Palestinians complete destruction of Israel would be the goal. I think most Palestinians who fight Israel just want them off their land and to have their own state. I too, would rather see Palestinians target the IDF if nothing else because its better for PR. They do seem to fighting among themselves often lately and they will work it out, or kill themselves, either way it will be fixed.

The destruction of Israel is a part of the old PLO charter and the Hamas charter. Remember, Hamas was democratically elected with near a 50% vote. The "most extreme Palestinians" as you put it are a significant portion of the population, if this vote for Hamas tells us anything.

Let's consider this: most of the time populations merge, move, or are given sanctuary in other nations.

AFAIK, Jordan is the only Arabian nation to take in a sizeable population of Palestinians.

So why has the Arab world not stepped up to the plate, the way Canada and the US did with the boat people, or France did for fleeing colonials?
Perhaps they are not pure enough for the rest of the high brow Arab world?

Simple question, are Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis legitimate resistance, terrorism, or both? I say given the illegal occupation such martyr attacks are justified in defence of the Palestinian people. I would also add that with the conditions the Israelis create for Palestinians, they actually create every martyr that attacks them and their people.

while i sympathise with palestinians,and hold zero ill will towards the israilis,i'll say it agin,intentionally targeting innocents is wrong,it is terrorism,and have you noticed how well it has worked in this situation?

maybe the palestinians should try some non violent resistance?

it would work wonders to end the disgusting cycle of violence i think.

i know if my daughter went to the market(who never hurt anyone..ever)and was blown up by a suicide bomber...well lets just say i aint gonna say..hmm..what would drive someonre to do that?
the rational way to think..yes...how you would think if your innocent little girl was blown to bits for no other reason then being in the wrong place?
i would wager to say(and the hatred bears me out)that what you get is retaliation,and it is wrong,but understandable.

what a mess,i feel really sorry for both sides in this conflict.

Let's consider this: most of the time populations merge, move, or are given sanctuary in other nations.

AFAIK, Jordan is the only Arabian nation to take in a sizeable population of Palestinians.

So why has the Arab world not stepped up to the plate, the way Canada and the US did with the boat people, or France did for fleeing colonials?

A few leading historians, including Palestinian historians like Edward Said, conclude that the reason Jordan, Egypt, etc. didn't absorb the Palestinian population but kept them in camps was to use as a political tool against Israel.

By keeping them in camps, they could get them to wage terrorist war on Israel of course. But more importantly, they served as the big sympathy card that they could play with the Arab world - "look at what the Israeli's did to the Arabs, putting them in camps!" While skewing the fact that it was actually Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians who put the refugees in the camps.

These Arab countries had no interest in their Arab brothers, but they did have interest in the land of the area. That much is evidenced by the fact that Egypt and Jordan stole the land appropriated for a Palestinian state in 1948, and kept it for decades. The destruction of Israel = more land for these Arab countries. A soverign Palestinain state was never on the actual agenda for these neighboring Arab countries, but it was a great motivator and political tool for the refugees that they kept in camps.

http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/clam-quahog.jpg

I personally believe that it is not right to hide behind civilian clothes, buildings, etc and then use organized violence against any sort of target wether military, civilian or political. As much as I support Isreal I would be ok with attacks against military as long as the attacker had uniforms and in the case of vehicles clear markings. I also believe there is difference between intentionally killing civilians by driving a truck bomb into them and, acting on intelligence, using guided weoponry.

You may not have learned this is school, I did here, where i live. Anyway, There used to be no Israel. The Jews were granted land in Algeria or Lybia and they said no, we want Israel. SO the British government said, well, ok, we do feel guilty from not letting any of you in during the holocaust, so ok, we'll just give you someone elses land.

The Arab nations were like, no way, you can have Africa. So the Jews got tanks and guns from the Czechoslavakians and moved into Jerusalem. The British sent Commandos and trained the Jewish terror organization known as Haganah. Now, It really does depend on your sources, but some say Haganah was defensive, offensive, whatever. They were an underground group aimed at killing Arabs. They were formed because, the Arabs were beginning to protest about the fact that the jews, actually I apoligize, Jewish people were not the problem at all, it was the Zionists. Contrary to popular belief, Jewish people are not hated on. In Iran for instance, Jews are encouraged to consider government for employment just as anyone else and not discrimnated against. Same with other Islamic countries.

ANYway, that was a side note for sure. But basically, the Israeilis took land that was not theirs. They also stole from the Jordanians, Syrians and Egytians. These Arab countries did fight back, but Israel was backed by the US, and the EU, so, what can you do. Anyway, jump ahead a little while, now we have displaced refugees who have nowhere to go because if they try to take their land back, they get a big what are you doing and get and airstrike all up in their camps. That's right, the Palestinians live in camps because their land was stolen for Israel. One thing to remember about the PLO and Hamas thing, is that there land was stolen. It is hard to try to put yourself in their shoes, they are cast into a bad light, killing civilians is bad, there is no doubt about that. But if they were targeting government and military figured, the airstrikes would be ten times worse, guarenteed. To put it into perspective.

Say, some General was in Iraq, and by chance he was killed by a suicide bomber who made it through a checkpoint, the sweeps to kill off the insurgents would be so intense, the marines would muster as much man power to try and sweet the whole country to try and find who ever they could, even more so than they already are.

You may not have learned this is school, I did here, where i live. Anyway, There used to be no Israel. The Jews were granted land in Algeria or Lybia and they said no, we want Israel. SO the British government said, well, ok, we do feel guilty from not letting any of you in during the holocaust, so ok, we'll just give you someone elses land. The Arab nations were like, no way, you can have Africa. So the Jews got tanks and guns from the Czechoslavakians and moved into Jerusalem. The British sent Commandos and trained the Jewish terror organization known as Haganah. Now, It really does depend on your sources, but some say Haganah was defensive, offensive, whatever. They were an underground group aimed at killing Arabs. They were formed because, the Arabs were beginning to protest about the fact that the jews, actually I apoligize, Jewish people were not the problem at all, it was the Zionists. Contrary to popular belief, Jewish people are not hated on. In Iran for instance, Jews are encouraged to consider government for employment just as anyone else and not discrimnated against. Same with other Islamic countries. ANYway, that was a side note for sure. But basically, the Israeilis took land that was not theirs. They also stole from the Jordanians, Syrians and Egytians. These Arab countries did fight back, but Israel was backed by the US, and the EU, so, what can you do. Anyway, jump ahead a little while, now we have displaced refugees who have nowhere to go because if they try to take their land back, they get a big what are you doing and get and airstrike all up in their camps. That's right, the Palestinians live in camps because their land was stolen for Israel. One thing to remember about the PLO and Hamas thing, is that there land was stolen. It is hard to try to put yourself in their shoes, they are cast into a bad light, killing civilians is bad, there is no doubt about that. But if they were targeting government and military figured, the airstrikes would be ten times worse, guarenteed. To put it into perspective. Say, some General was in Iraq, and by chance he was killed by a suicide bomber who made it through a checkpoint, the sweeps to kill off the insurgents would be so intense, the marines would muster as much man power to try and sweet the whole country to try and find who ever they could, even more so than they already are.

1. Paragraphs are your friend.

2. And this justifies intentionally targeting civilians how?

Oh my....

I tried to say, that killing civilians is not what should be going on, i think I did put that in there. Actually I think I overshadowed in by saying that it'd be to hard to kill military figures. Yeah, killing civilians is not the way to gain public approval, no doubt about that. I found quote from the Hamas leader Mahmouh al-Zahar that was given to after the January elections.
"Palestinians never hated the Jews and that only the Israeli occupation was their enemy."
Again, Hamas is (in)famous for their suicide bombings. And i also want to correct myself, the PLO do recognize Isreal as a Sovereignty.

I personally believe that it is not right to hide behind civilian clothes, buildings, etc and then use organized violence against any sort of target wether military, civilian or political. As much as I support Isreal I would be ok with attacks against military as long as the attacker had uniforms and in the case of vehicles clear markings. I also believe there is difference between intentionally killing civilians by driving a truck bomb into them and, acting on intelligence, using guided weoponry.


What if they can't afford guided weaponry, should they not be allowed to fight for what they believe in, which is a country of their own.

A few leading historians, including Palestinian historians like Edward Said, conclude that the reason Jordan, Egypt, etc. didn't absorb the Palestinian population but kept them in camps was to use as a political tool against Israel.

By keeping them in camps, they could get them to wage terrorist war on Israel of course. But more importantly, they served as the big sympathy card that they could play with the Arab world - "look at what the Israeli's did to the Arabs, putting them in camps!" While skewing the fact that it was actually Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians who put the refugees in the camps.

These Arab countries had no interest in their Arab brothers, but they did have interest in the land of the area. That much is evidenced by the fact that Egypt and Jordan stole the land appropriated for a Palestinian state in 1948, and kept it for decades. The destruction of Israel = more land for these Arab countries. A soverign Palestinain state was never on the actual agenda for these neighboring Arab countries, but it was a great motivator and political tool for the refugees that they kept in camps.

Once again politics gets in the way. Sigh.

I only support the resistance if they only attack military targets but I find it abhorrent to attack civilians.

Their resistance is justified - their means are not. Too bad for them...

What if they can't afford guided weaponry, should they not be allowed to fight for what they believe in, which is a country of their own.


Ghandi had guided missiles? MLK had machine guns?

Their resistance is justified - their means are not. Too bad for them...

This whole mess can go on forever as far as the eye can see.

Ghandi had guided missiles? MLK had machine guns?

In theory a nice use of two highly important figures, but in practice their application to this siuation is not right.

India was only ruled by an elite few in comparison to the population of the subcontinent.

MLK was not looking for self determination.

You could be more accurate in looking at the actions of the American Revolutionaries, or Ireland's War of Independence. Both used whatever military means were available to them.

What if they can't afford guided weaponry, should they not be allowed to fight for what they believe in, which is a country of their own.

Have you heard about this thing they call non-violent movement?

The Indians could also not afford fancy weapons to target British military targets and yet they achieved independance by not throwing stones and launching terror attacks and vowing to destroy Britain.

Simple question, are Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis legitimate resistance, terrorism, or both? I say given the illegal occupation such martyr attacks are justified in defence of the Palestinian people. I would also add that with the conditions the Israelis create for Palestinians, they actually create every martyr that attacks them and their people.

Machine gunning children's school busses as they go by is legitimate resistance?

I don't care how badly you allege they have "Violated" your rights, you don't go machine gunning their kids.

Filthy savages.

They also stole from the Jordanians, Syrians and Egytians. These Arab countries did fight back, but Israel was backed by the US, and the EU, .


Rather than blast everything I'll just start with this one little sentence.

I'll start with the obvious - The EU did not exist in 1967. Sorry.

The US provided no troops, weapons, intelligence, funds, or greeting cards to the Isralis. That is a rumor stirred up by Arabs after their humiating defeat. The Arab nations, however, were well supplied by the former Soviet Union.

The military maneuver was undeniably defensive in nature and the land they kept was strategic to defending against future hostility. When Sadat signed a respectable peace treaty Egypt was given back the territory in better condition than it was when they lost it.

Actually, my rant is losing steam, luckily eh?
One thing I do not agree with, the slaying of Civilians, which, one of these chaps used an appropriate word, abhorrent. I feel I'm spreading the message the killing civilains is right, I'm not about this, and I am presenting myself inappropriatly if this is the message I am portraying. Anyway, Hamas believe that suicide attacks are their only way of fighting and see it as asymmetric warfare. They see all Israelis, enemies because of the mandatory military service, so every citizen has contributed to the illegal occupation. This is why they fail to distinguish between a bunker and a bus shelter. That is what i disagree with, Non is infront of Non-Combatant for a reason.

Actually, my rant is losing steam, luckily eh?
One thing I do not agree with, the slaying of Civilians, which, one of these chaps used an appropriate word, abhorrent. I feel I'm spreading the message the killing civilains is right, I'm not about this, and I am presenting myself inappropriatly if this is the message I am portraying. Anyway, Hamas believe that suicide attacks are their only way of fighting and see it as asymmetric warfare. They see all Israelis, enemies because of the mandatory military service, so every citizen has contributed to the illegal occupation. This is why they fail to distinguish between a bunker and a bus shelter. That is what i disagree with, Non is infront of Non-Combatant for a reason.

That explains everything. But still young children are non-combatants. Only exception is legal age/applicable for military service like 18 and above.

You could be more accurate in looking at the actions of the American Revolutionaries, or Ireland's War of Independence. Both used whatever military means were available to them.

The Irish may not be the best case to use here...

The original Patriots, AFIK, never targeted civilians...

Maybe a better parallel could be found among the Americn Indians... And we know how it turned out for them...

The Irish may not be the best case to use here...

The original Patriots, AFIK, never targeted civilians...

Maybe a better parallel could be found among the Americn Indians... And we know how it turned out for them...

There were some incidents during the US revolution but they were generally isolated and not part of official policy. There was quite a bit of harrassment though against loyalists but rarely lethal.

That explains everything. But still young children are non-combatants. Only exception is legal age/applicable for military service like 18 and above.

No, and no. Just because you are young doesn't mean you are innocent. A 9 year old boy yanked the pin off a grenade and tossed it at a Stryker in iraq. Guess what happened? 3 soldiers were injured and the boy got dusted. Anyone capable of pointing a weapon is a combatant.

A 30 year old civilian is still a 30 year old civilian-no exceptions. Not a military target, period.

The Irish may not be the best case to use here...

Why....?

Rather than blast everything I'll just start with this one little sentence.

I'll start with the obvious - The EU did not exist in 1967. Sorry.

The US provided no troops, weapons, intelligence, funds, or greeting cards to the Isralis. That is a rumor stirred up by Arabs after their humiating defeat. The Arab nations, however, were well supplied by the former Soviet Union.

The military maneuver was undeniably defensive in nature and the land they kept was strategic to defending against future hostility. When Sadat signed a respectable peace treaty Egypt was given back the territory in better condition than it was when they lost it.

Yes you're right, I did forget to mention that the Suez Canal was returned to the Egyptians. I don't think, I mentioned anything about Arabs ill-armed, but it is a good point, the Soviets did supply The Middle East with weaponary, no doubt about that, they built a friggin damn for the Egyptians, what's a few guns here and there. Hmm, as for the EU, I actually only meant mostly Britain and France, but I wasn't entirly sure how many other countries actually, aided the move, so, I hoped I wouldn' t leave anyone out that helped, that's all I meant, sorry for the misinformation. Another thing, after the formation of Israel, Haganah and it's splinter groups Irgun and Lehi were dismantled. And as for the US, I must of got my thoughts jumbled, because North America, mainly the US and Canada have been very influencial and trying to coercce peace talks, actually keeping Israel out of the first Gulf War after the Iraqis had fired missiles into Israel killing Two Citizens.

What if they can't afford guided weaponry, should they not be allowed to fight for what they believe in, which is a country of their own.

excuse me but...bullshit

killing innocents intentionally is beyond justifacation...always!

not only is it cowardly...it is wrong!


argue that....cant,i'll argue for you...we cant fight fair so we will kill innocents!

fuckin pussies if you ask me,and i will never respect your cause..ever.

suicide bomb a military base..ok..i feel you...but killin kids,you suck.

Silly Palestinians. Everyone knows they're supposed to stop bombing civilians and military targets and instead kill themselves off or be good little submissive Gunga Dins to their Israeli masters.[/SARCASM]

:rolleyes:

Silly Palestinians. Everyone knows they're supposed to stop bombing civilians and military targets and instead kill themselves off or be good little submissive Gunga Dins to their Israeli masters.[/SARCASM]

:rolleyes:


No, they need to put their weapons down and accept the existence and legitimacy of Israel. If they want a state, all they have to do is bring the terror to a stop, end the missile launching, and sit down to the negotiating table. The ball is in their court. Israel has been more than willing to negotiate a settlement with the Palestinians and has been successfull with other Arab nations. Guns down, Palis play nice...peace has a chance.

Israel however will not sit back and let its civilians be murdered while the Palestinians continually try to destroy Israel.

Silly Palestinians. Everyone knows they're supposed to stop bombing civilians and military targets and instead kill themselves off or be good little submissive Gunga Dins to their Israeli masters.[/SARCASM]

:rolleyes:

a tad snarky are we....tell that to the women that lost her kid you punk ass.on either side of the issue...

i bet you will get rightfully punched in the face for that,and deserve it.

both sides are incorrect on this issue,because as i stated,it has become a vicous cycle of violence and both sides are wrong....you being flip about children dying is disgusting...a big fuck you ...to you...if i read you wrong,my apologies....kids dying is niothing to be flippant about...ever.

the fact that there has been so much blood shed,does not excuse morals,i would think...but i may be wrond,,,,doubt it,but i am a twit.

Palestinian Resistance?

What are they resisting against? At any time in the last few decades, The Palestinians could have had their own state. All they have to do is abandon their stated goal of the total destruction of Israel. It's hard to feel sympathy for an oppressed people when their greatest nationalistic desire is war and genocide.

Palestinian Resistance?

What are they resisting against? At any time in the last few decades, The Palestinians could have had their own state. All they have to do is abandon their stated goal of the total destruction of Israel. It's hard to feel sympathy for an oppressed people when their greatest nationalistic desire is war and genocide.

as much as i agree with the palistinians...you are correct...sir/madamm

both sides are incorrect on this issue,because as i stated,it has become a vicous cycle of violence and both sides are wrong....you being flip about children dying is disgusting...a big fuck you ...to you...if i read you wrong,my apologies....kids dying is niothing to be flippant about...ever.

the fact that there has been so much blood shed,does not excuse morals,i would think...but i may be wrond,,,,doubt it,but i am a twit.


The violence is started by the Palestinians, who send their children to die in the streets of tel aviv. Israel retaliates against terrorists when they blow up civilians in the streets. If the terrorists didn't hide behind civilians as human shields, the collateral damage would be significantly lower than it is.

Israel must take out the people that are responsible for the civilian deaths of its population. If Israel shows weakness, then they will only be strengthening the terrorist morale. Take the pullout of Gaza for example: after the Israelis withdrew, the Palis were chanting in the streets "Gaza today, Jerusalem tomorrow."

Israel must take out the people that are responsible for the civilian deaths of its population. If Israel shows weakness, then they will only be strengthening the terrorist morale. Take the pullout of Gaza for example: after the Israelis withdrew, the Palis were chanting in the streets "Gaza today, Jerusalem tomorrow."

And offering negotations is a sign of weakness right? So that means Israel has to either exterminate the Palestinians or reduce them to a broken demoralized slave class in order to stop terrorism.

The violence is started by the Palestinians, who send their children to die in the streets of tel aviv. Israel retaliates against terrorists when they blow up civilians in the streets. If the terrorists didn't hide behind civilians as human shields, the collateral damage would be significantly lower than it is.

Israel must take out the people that are responsible for the civilian deaths of its population. If Israel shows weakness, then they will only be strengthening the terrorist morale. Take the pullout of Gaza for example: after the Israelis withdrew, the Palis were chanting in the streets "Gaza today, Jerusalem tomorrow."

as they were dancing in the streets after the twin towers were hit..yet america gives them alot of money(they are an aid driven economy)..but then again...i keep forgetting i/we are the great satan...you know..they can fuck off for all i care.


it is pathetic they think that killing people at a disco/deli will make me syphathise with their cause...all it accomplishes...is me despising them abit more each day.

the israilis are no better,but if i had to choose,let me see...baby killer or people reacting to their kids being killed...no brainer,and spare me the bullshit about how they cant fight fair...if your gonna blow your dumbass up at a deli..do it at a military base.
i might have an ounce of respect..killkids..fuck off jerkoff.

justify that you appeasers out there...the israilis have bent over backward to not kill innocents,,,,they do die(innocents),,it is war,but please...justify killing innocents intentionally...go ahead..i dare you.

if you can twist and justify that,your as sick as the murderous scum that perpetrates the killing of innocents as a means to your end..pathetic logic..or does it fit your pathetic idealism?

Let the record show that some 45+% of all voters here support Terrorism.

I'd say that it is about time that the Pentagon/FBI/MI6/MI5 and various others start investigating certain folks around here...

The destruction of Israel is a part of the old PLO charter and the Hamas charter. Remember, Hamas was democratically elected with near a 50% vote. The "most extreme Palestinians" as you put it are a significant portion of the population, if this vote for Hamas tells us anything.

But the PLO changed their charter. And where did that get them?


The Jews were granted land in Algeria or Lybia and they said no, we want Israel. SO the British government said, well, ok, we do feel guilty from not letting any of you in during the holocaust, so ok, we'll just give you someone elses land..

Away, hell spawn.

The Indians could also not afford fancy weapons to target British military targets and yet they achieved independance by not throwing stones and launching terror attacks and vowing to destroy Britain...

Yet there was violent unrest during the whole independence struggle. Not to mention the way distance, resources and sheer scale worked against the British.

No, they need to put their weapons down and accept the existence and legitimacy of Israel. If they want a state, all they have to do is bring the terror to a stop, end the missile launching, and sit down to the negotiating table....

Every cessastion has brought about an increase in settlement construction and consolidation. Thats not truly a ceasefire, thats just warfare by different means.


The violence is started by the Palestinians, who send their children to die in the streets of tel aviv. Israel retaliates against terrorists when they blow up civilians in the streets. If the terrorists didn't hide behind civilians as human shields, the collateral damage would be significantly lower than it is.....

No mention of settler violence? Roadblocks? The humiliations at checkpoints? Settler - only "bypass" roads.....

And offering negotations is a sign of weakness right? So that means Israel has to either exterminate the Palestinians or reduce them to a broken demoralized slave class in order to stop terrorism.


If you looked above I said that the TERRORISTS must be taken out, not the Palestinian population; so I dunno where ur getting off saying that I wanna exterminate the Pals or reduce them to a demoralized slave class.

As for negotiations, Israel has always been willing to sit down to the negotiating tables. I recall Arafat being forced to Washington in 2000 and then having him walkaway from the best deal he ever coulda gotten at Camp David.

There will not be peace until the Israelis have a partner for peace.

But the PLO changed their charter. And where did that get them?

Nowhere; they changed their charter but never stopped trying to destroy Israel


Every cessastion has brought about an increase in settlement construction and consolidation. Thats not truly a ceasefire, thats just warfare by different means.

Settlements are not and have never been an obstacle to peace. If the Pals sat down and negotiated a state at this exact second, Israel would force the settlers to pull out, except for a few settlement blocks with large populations close to the green line. As for the time being, Israel will not wait forever for the Pals to stop killing and will therefore put the empty land in the West Bank to good use. The settlements are built on land that is not occupied by Palestinians; it is simply empty land uninhabited by anyone. The Pals aren't being forced out of anywhere.

No mention of settler violence? Roadblocks? The humiliations at checkpoints? Settler - only "bypass" roads.....

Settler violence is rare and almost never happens. When it occasionally does happen, you see quick condemnation by Israel. Not to mention most of the "settler violence" in recent months has been directed towards the IDF and Israeli police.

No Terror=No roadblocks. Israel can't keep porous borders when its neighbor wants it dead.

Settlements are not and have never been an obstacle to peace.

Yeah... they kinda have.

Yet there was violent unrest during the whole independence struggle. Not to mention the way distance, resources and sheer scale worked against the British.

Those were aberrations and not the rule. It was the non-violent civil disobedience movements that defined the Indian independance struggle.

Try again.

Yeah... they kinda have.


How so? If the settlers will be removed after a final peace agreement, what does it matter if they are there now. The Israelis have been waiting to make peace with the Arabs for 58 years. The land being settled isn't occupied by Palestinians. It's just empty land.

Also to refute the "settlements are an obstacle to peace" argument: there were settelements in th Sinai that were dismantled after a final peace was established with Sadat of Egypt. I recommend checking out the Jewish Virtual Library.org

Here's a clip from Myths and Facts online:

Settlements have never been an obstacle to peace.

* From 1949-67, when Jews were forbidden to live on the West Bank, the Arabs refused to make peace with Israel.
* From 1967-77, the Labor Party established only a few strategic settlements in the territories, yet the Arabs were unwilling to negotiate peace with Israel.
* In 1977, months after a Likud government committed to greater settlement activity took power, Egyptian President Sadat went to Jerusalem and later signed a peace treaty with Israel. Incidentally, Israeli settlements existed in the Sinai and those were removed as part of the agreement with Egypt.
* One year later, Israel froze settlement building for three months, hoping the gesture would entice other Arabs to join the Camp David peace process. But none would.
* In 1994, Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel and settlements were not an issue. If anything, the number of Jews living in the territories was growing.
* Between June 1992 and June 1996, under Labor-led governments, the Jewish population in the territories grew by approximately 50 percent. This rapid growth did not prevent the Palestinians from signing the Oslo accords in September 1993 or the Oslo 2 agreement in September 1995.
* In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to dismantle dozens of settlement, but the Palestinians still would not agree to end the conflict

Also to refute the "settlements are an obstacle to peace" argument: there were settelements in th Sinai that were dismantled after a final peace was established with Sadat of Egypt. I recommend checking out the Jewish Virtual Library.org

Don't forget that since the settlements were all removed from Gaza and IDF troops left terror has increased tenfold. If anything, we see an inverse relationship between settlements and terror; as settlements go down, terror increases.

Don't forget that since the settlements were all removed from Gaza and IDF troops left terror has increased tenfold. If anything, we see an inverse relationship between settlements and terror; as settlements go down, terror increases.


Ofcourse, how could I forget Gaza...ahhh TS, you're on fire today

Simple question, are Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis legitimate resistance, terrorism, or both? I say given the illegal occupation such martyr attacks are justified in defence of the Palestinian people. I would also add that with the conditions the Israelis create for Palestinians, they actually create every martyr that attacks them and their people.
If you want to fight Israel, form a conventional army, and fight a conventional war. Oh, I forgot - there are no Arab armies that can fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

It's rather inane and profitless to blow up random civilians and claim victory over your oppressor.

If you want to fight Israel, form a conventional army, and fight a conventional war. Oh, I forgot - there are no Arab armies that can fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

It's rather inane and profitless to blow up random civilians and claim victory over your oppressor.

So you do in fact believe that the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel then? Funny considering you'd drop a load if they wiped out every brown-skin on the Gaza Strip.

Don't forget that since the settlements were all removed from Gaza and IDF troops left terror has increased tenfold. If anything, we see an inverse relationship between settlements and terror; as settlements go down, terror increases.

The solution then? Build as many settlements in the Gaza Strip as possible and send those dirty brown-skinned Muslims packing to the reservations![/SARCASM]

The solution then? Build as many settlements in the Gaza Strip as possible and send those dirty brown-skinned Muslims packing to the reservations![/SARCASM]
You sure have a thing for the phrase "dirty brown-skinned". Are you transfering something perhaps?

The solution then? Build as many settlements in the Gaza Strip as possible and send those dirty brown-skinned Muslims packing to the reservations![/SARCASM]


News Flash: no Jews in Gaza+no settlements in Gaza since last summer= more rocket attacks and violence directed at Israel from Gaza.

And I belive it was those "dirty brown-skinned Muslims" own Arab brothers who put them in "reservations."

News Flash: no Jews in Gaza+no settlements in Gaza since last summer= more rocket attacks and violence directed at Israel from Gaza.

And I belive it was those "dirty brown-skinned Muslims" own Arab brothers who put them in "reservations."
Any why hasn't any other Arab nation taken in Palistinian refugees? Why did Saudi Arabia, when it reformed it's immigration policy, add the section "No Palistinians"?

So you do in fact believe that the Palestinians are being oppressed by Israel then? Funny considering you'd drop a load if they wiped out every brown-skin on the Gaza Strip.

Actually, I do not think they are oppressed.

At this point in time, the Palestinian government is completely on its own. Israel does not occupy Gaza, for instance. A lot of settlements inside PA areas have been dismantled.

Looks like unilateral disengagement to me. Nothing illegal or war crime related about that.

Then they're going to put up a security fence, and that's it.

Israel won't have to deal with the Palestinians at all - not even to molest them as you imagine - unless the Palestinians fire rockets at Israel.

Then it's perfectly legal under international law to fire back.